Back surgery?

[phesina]

I have been having a great deal of pain in my hips/groin/legs for the past few months. I can't stand or walk for long before there is stabbing pain mainly in the right groin area and then down that leg.

An MRI revealed deterioration of the bones below the spine resulting in pinched nerves. I've had epidural injections which have provided some but not a whole lot of relief.

Last week I saw a neurosurgeon. He advised surgery, more specifically Posterior Lumbar Interbody Fusion*.

This would require several days in the hospital and then three or four weeks in a rehab place.

I'm terrified at the prospect!

The surgeon said this is not something to rush into, and to talk it over with family and get more information. I have another appointment with him May 2. I also would like to get at least a second opinion before making any decisions.

Have any of you ever had surgery like this or have anyone close to you who has? Or know anything more about it or have good leads on other surgeons?

Thanks very much!

Pat :love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

------------------
* For more information on this, go to this page: http://annarborspinecenter.com/education/animations.html

In the area labeled "Medical Animations" and then under "Patient Education Libraries," click "Orthopedics." Then go down the "Surgical Procedures" list to "PLIF: Posterior Lumbar Interbody Fusion" and click that. That's it! Fun FUN FUN!!!

[Karen]

I will PM Kirsten, and Lut - I think one of them might have had similar Sir Jury, not sure.

[Maya & Inka's mommy]

It isn't what I had done.
More information here:- http://www.centerforspinecare.com/maverick/
- http://www.methodisthealthsystem.org/discreplacementlumbarmaverick

I wish you all the best Phesina!! This surgery gave me a new life! I am so happy with the result!!

[smokey the elder]

This sounds a lot like the surgery Tiger Woods had. Hopefully whatever you decide will stop your pain.

[phesina]

I will PM Kirsten, and Lut - I think one of them might have had similar Sir Jury, not sure.

Thank you, Karen. I see Lut has already replied here!

:love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

[phesina]

It isn't what I had done.
More information here:- http://www.centerforspinecare.com/maverick/
- http://www.methodisthealthsystem.org/discreplacementlumbarmaverick

I wish you all the best Phesina!! This surgery gave me a new life! I am so happy with the result!!

Thank you, Lut! This was extremely interesting. Did you have your work done there in Texas? I'm so glad that your surgery went so well and you are doing so much better!

It looks like the Ann Arbor Spine Center does something similar (see "Total Disc Replacement" on the Orthopedics Animations page), but I guess this particular surgeon doesn't think it would be suitable for me.

Pat :love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

[phesina]

This sounds a lot like the surgery Tiger Woods had. Hopefully whatever you decide will stop your pain.

Thank you, Smokey! I hope I do as well as Tiger.

:love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

[Randi]

Pat, I'm sorry to hear this. :( I don't know anything about back surgery, so can't help, but in any case it's always good to get a second opinion. If you do decide to get surgery, I hope it will be a success and you will be painfree.

Sending lots of good thougts and hugs. :love:

[Maya & Inka's mommy]

Thank you, Lut! This was extremely interesting. Did you have your work done there in Texas? I'm so glad that your surgery went so well and you are doing so much better!


In Texas??? I live in Belgium :) , we have good surgeons here too , LOL ;)

ps. Randi is right, Pat, be sure to get a good second opinion! I did that too, I also contacted people who'd got this surgery. Seeing their progress, was a great relief to me! A few months later, I was also contacted by a man who needed to have it done as well. I gave him good advise and I also went to the hospital a few days after his surgery; I did this to show him how good my back was; he told me that my visit made him really believe he would get better too!

[phesina]

Thank you, Randi. Your good thoughts and hugs are a great help!

I got the name of a doctor to call about a second opinion, but his first opening, in Novi, Michigan, is May 30.

:love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

[pomtzu]

Been there, Pat. I had a lumbar fusion and laminectomy of L4, L5, S1 back in Dec 2010. I had pressure from narrowing and degenerative discs, and pressure on nerves that was causing a great deal of pain in my hip and thigh - down to my knee. Doc went in and cleaned up all the junk and "frayed areas" and fused the vertebrae with rods and screws. I was in the hospital for 3 days, and had hardly any discomfort at all from the surgery. It was about 6 weeks till I was back to full function, and I never even did the physical therapy that I was supposed to have. Bad me - and doc just shook his head in disbelief that I did so well even without it. Anyway - I was finally pain free. That is until last November when I took a nasty fall when I was in NC. I was in misery and I knew I did some major damage. I finally got to see my spine surgeon in Baltimore when I got back here in January, and the x-rays and MRI confirmed the damage. The hardware on one side of the fused area collapsed and pulled the vertebrae above it out of line and to one side, so now it's more surgery to repair all the damage and stabilize the newly messed up vertebrae. I was scheduled for this surgery on March 24th, but had to postpone. I just called doc's office today to get the ball rolling on a new date, since I just can't continue to function like this much longer. I can't walk without a cane now, and I'm on some fairly potent pain killers. I need to get back to "normal" - whatever that may be. Doc said I'd be in the hospital for 3 - 5 days for this one, and "maybe" some inpatient rehab - depending on how things go.

So if you need to have this done, then don't hesitate. I guarantee that you'll be pain free, and then kick yourself for not having it done sooner. It's really not a painful surgery at all - at least it wasn't for me...:D

I'd refer you to my surgeon, but he's in Baltimore. Long drive !!! :p You can go to the Univ of MD Medical Center website and read up about the various spine surgeries. Or you can just Google doc's name "Dr Steven C. Ludwig", and it will take you to that site too

[phesina]

In Texas??? I live in Belgium :) , we have good surgeons here too , LOL ;)

ps. Randi is right, Pat, be sure to get a good second opinion! I did that too, I also contacted people who'd got this surgery. Seeing their progress, was a great relief to me! A few months later, I was also contacted by a man who needed to have it done as well. I gave him good advise and I also went to the hospital a few days after his surgery; I did this to show him how good my back was; he told me that my visit made him really believe he would get better too!

Thanks, Lut.

I know you live in Belgium! I was so surprised when the site links you gave me went to this place in Texas. I wondered, you went all the way to Texas to get this done? When ever would this have been, because in all the time I've known you here, I've never seen any mention of a trip to Texas.

I'm sure you had a fine surgeon there in Belgium ;). His clinic or hospital doesn't have a web site telling about it?

:love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

[phesina]

Been there, Pat. I had a lumbar fusion and laminectomy of L4, L5, S1 back in Dec 2010. I had pressure from narrowing and degenerative discs, and pressure on nerves that was causing a great deal of pain in my hip and thigh - down to my knee. Doc went in and cleaned up all the junk and "frayed areas" and fused the vertebrae with rods and screws. I was in the hospital for 3 days, and had hardly any discomfort at all from the surgery. It was about 6 weeks till I was back to full function, and I never even did the physical therapy that I was supposed to have. Bad me - and doc just shook his head in disbelief that I did so well even without it. Anyway - I was finally pain free. That is until last November when I took a nasty fall when I was in NC. I was in misery and I knew I did some major damage. I finally got to see my spine surgeon in Baltimore when I got back here in January, and the x-rays and MRI confirmed the damage. The hardware on one side of the fused area collapsed and pulled the vertebrae above it out of line and to one side, so now it's more surgery to repair all the damage and stabilize the newly messed up vertebrae. I was scheduled for this surgery on March 24th, but had to postpone. I just called doc's office today to get the ball rolling on a new date, since I just can't continue to function like this much longer. I can't walk without a cane now, and I'm on some fairly potent pain killers. I need to get back to "normal" - whatever that may be. Doc said I'd be in the hospital for 3 - 5 days for this one, and "maybe" some inpatient rehab - depending on how things go.

So if you need to have this done, then don't hesitate. I guarantee that you'll be pain free, and then kick yourself for not having it done sooner. It's really not a painful surgery at all - at least it wasn't for me...:D

I'd refer you to my surgeon, but he's in Baltimore. Long drive !!! :p You can go to the Univ of MD Medical Center website and read up about the various spine surgeries. Or you can just Google doc's name "Dr Steven C. Ludwig", and it will take you to that site too

WOW, Ellie! Thanks SO much! This is really helpful information.

I'm so sorry you had the fall in NC resulting in so much re-damage. How painful that must be! I hope you can get this fixed up soon.

I will take a look at U-MD and your doctor on the web when I have a little more time.

Thanks again, and I hope things will be fixed up again for you soon.

:love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

[mbsmum]

I am sorry to hear about your back Pat. I am afraid I cannot give any information about back surgery, but I think a second opinion is definitely a must. I wish you all the best. Prathima

[phesina]

Thank you, Prathima!

:love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

[carole]

oh dearest Pat i am so so sorry to hear you are in so much pain, thats awful, sorry i dont get to stop by much these days, but i am still here, i am thinking of you and i am glad there is something that can be done to help ease your pain, i wish you all the best for a very positive outcome, i can imagine how scarey this must be for you, i really do, you know when i was nurse aiding when i was 16 i was lucky enough to be allowed in theatre to watch a back operation a laminectomy, i have never forgotten the experience, it was amazing to see and i looked after the patient afterwards, i certainly had a lot of empathy for him.

That was a very long time ago and i am sure they have really up to date methods especially in the US and you will be just fine,take care and let us know how you go with your decision, HUGS.:love::love:

[Maya & Inka's mommy]

Thanks, Lut.

I know you live in Belgium! I was so surprised when the site links you gave me went to this place in Texas. I wondered, you went all the way to Texas to get this done? When ever would this have been, because in all the time I've known you here, I've never seen any mention of a trip to Texas.

I'm sure you had a fine surgeon there in Belgium ;). His clinic or hospital doesn't have a web site telling about it?

:love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

That's weird.....! I had it done here in Belgium, in Ghent !
I added this link which I found in Google; maybe that is the reason, because the article was from a clinic in Texas??
I don't know if my surgeon has a website, but I will look for that and add that link here too then!

[phesina]

Been there, Pat. I had a lumbar fusion and laminectomy of L4, L5, S1 back in Dec 2010. I had pressure from narrowing and degenerative discs, and pressure on nerves that was causing a great deal of pain in my hip and thigh - down to my knee. Doc went in and cleaned up all the junk and "frayed areas" and fused the vertebrae with rods and screws. I was in the hospital for 3 days, and had hardly any discomfort at all from the surgery. It was about 6 weeks till I was back to full function, and I never even did the physical therapy that I was supposed to have. Bad me - and doc just shook his head in disbelief that I did so well even without it. Anyway - I was finally pain free. That is until last November when I took a nasty fall when I was in NC. I was in misery and I knew I did some major damage. I finally got to see my spine surgeon in Baltimore when I got back here in January, and the x-rays and MRI confirmed the damage. The hardware on one side of the fused area collapsed and pulled the vertebrae above it out of line and to one side, so now it's more surgery to repair all the damage and stabilize the newly messed up vertebrae. I was scheduled for this surgery on March 24th, but had to postpone. I just called doc's office today to get the ball rolling on a new date, since I just can't continue to function like this much longer. I can't walk without a cane now, and I'm on some fairly potent pain killers. I need to get back to "normal" - whatever that may be. Doc said I'd be in the hospital for 3 - 5 days for this one, and "maybe" some inpatient rehab - depending on how things go.

So if you need to have this done, then don't hesitate. I guarantee that you'll be pain free, and then kick yourself for not having it done sooner. It's really not a painful surgery at all - at least it wasn't for me...:D

I'd refer you to my surgeon, but he's in Baltimore. Long drive !!! :p You can go to the Univ of MD Medical Center website and read up about the various spine surgeries. Or you can just Google doc's name "Dr Steven C. Ludwig", and it will take you to that site too

Hi Ellie, I am reading your message again, more carefully now that it is getting closer to my second visit with the surgeon and my consult with the second surgeon.

Dr. Brodkey, the neurosurgeon I saw, wrote in his letter about his consultation with me:

--------------->
Impression:
Lumbar spinal stenosis L4-5, L5-S1.
Spondylolisthesis L4-5,L5-S1.
Degenerative disc change L3-4.

.. In her case I would recommend a decompression and a fusion, and the difficulty is to decide what levels to include. In her case, based on her curve and the disc degeneration and facet arthropathy, my feeling is a decompression from L3 to the sacrum would be best for her.
This is certainly a huge undertaking and does carry risk... [and he goes on to detail these..]
-------

Is this like what was going on with you and the kind of surgery you had?

My brother and sister both advise strongly against having surgery, before exploring and trying every possible non-surgical alternative.

Thanks!

[pomtzu]

Hi Ellie, I am reading your message again, more carefully now that it is getting closer to my second visit with the surgeon and my consult with the second surgeon.

Dr. Brodkey, the neurosurgeon I saw, wrote in his letter about his consultation with me:

--------------->
Impression:
Lumbar spinal stenosis L4-5, L5-S1.
Spondylolisthesis L4-5,L5-S1.
Degenerative disc change L3-4.

.. In her case I would recommend a decompression and a fusion, and the difficulty is to decide what levels to include. In her case, based on her curve and the disc degeneration and facet arthropathy, my feeling is a decompression from L3 to the sacrum would be best for her.
This is certainly a huge undertaking and does carry risk... [and he goes on to detail these..]
-------

Is this like what was going on with you and the kind of surgery you had?

My brother and sister both advise strongly against having surgery, before exploring and trying every possible non-surgical alternative.

Thanks!

Yes Pat - this is/was precisely my issue too. The surgery in 2010 fused the vertebrae of L4, L5 and S1 - just as you describe your issue. Normally this would have been the end of it, but my bone density is so ultra crappy that the hardware failed on one side when I took that very hard fall in November. Now that has to be repaired, and L3 will be fused also - some kind of crap going on at that level too.

I'm wondering why you elected to see a neurosurgeon rather than an orthopedic surgeon. I had a neurosurgeon do a number on me (almost paralyzed and could have killed me) when I had the cervical fusion in 2006, and it took my current spine surgeon (the orthopedic surgeon) to repair all of that damage to get me back functioning again. Even with that, I still had to retire early on disability since it left me with limitations, but at least I was alive - no thanks to the neuro doc. :mad: My entire cervical spine had to be fused from C2 to T2 - he actually saved my life. So when I had the lumbar issues, of course I went back to him. Unless you have some other issues, I don't know why your doctor says it's such a big risk. And I don't understand the 3 or 4 weeks in rehab that you mentioned earlier also - that's over the top. But of course, every doctor is different in how they do things. I had no rehab and didn't even do physical therapy. Heck - when I broke my hip I was in rehab for just under 2 weeks and the same with the cervical spine fusion.

I don't know what other options you would have other than physical therapy and epidural steroid injections. Doc said I could try the injections, but no guarantee I would get any relief if they worked at all, and it would be a temporary fix at best - he compared it to putting a bandaid on a gaping wound. I've had steroid injections in my knee and elbow, but with no relief - just a waste of time and $$$. And not to scare you, but just last week I read where the FDA issued new warnings on the epidural steroid injections - "rare but serious neurological effects, including loss of vision, paralysis, stroke and death". Nope - no way I'm going that route, no matter how rare these complications are.

I personally wouldn't let family influence any decision either, but that's up to you. You and your doctors know what's best. This condition isn't just going to go away by itself.........don't we wish, tho??? !!

My surgery has been rescheduled for May 28th. I could have had it on May 14, but then I wouldn't have been able to attend my granddaughter's graduation from college on May 21. No way I'm missing that.

So this is my side of the story - hope I shed a little more light on it for you. I just wish you lived closer - I'd take you to Baltimore to meet with my doc. He's tops in his field (specializes in all spine issues), and is very well known and respected in the area. He's a relatively young guy - in his late 40's but looks like a college kid, but he's head of the spine surgery department at the Univ of MD Med Cntr - definitely knows his stuff ! I trust him 1000%. :)

Keep me posted on your progress. Here's hoping and praying that you can get this taken care of soon, and successfully, and with as little inconvenience as possible.

[krazyaboutkatz]

Pat, I'm just now seeing this.:o I'm so sorry to hear that you're in so much pain.:( I sure hope that if you end up having surgery that it'll go smoothly and you'll finally be pain free. My mom, my aunt, and my cousin all have spinal stenosis. My mom has tried almost everything without any luck. I've also been having some lower back pain recently but I'm trying physical therapy and so far the exercises that I've been doing have really helped. The PT said that my
L4 and L5 were very stiff and my lower left side is worse than my right side. I also asked him what kind of lumbar seat cushion he'd recommend. He showed me an inflatable kind that you only blow up a little bit. It can then be strapped to your chair and will conform to your lower back. I bought one for home and one for work. So far it's also helped a lot. I go back to work on May 7th whether I'm better or not because I just can't afford to take any more time off. Good luck with everything.:)

[phesina]

Thank you so much, Carole and Ellie and Tracey. I will write more when I have a little more time (especially about surgery and surgeons, etc., Ellie!). Meanwhile, I really appreciate all your good thoughts and wishes and advice!

:love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love: from Pat (and cats)

[cassiesmom]

Hi Ellie, I am reading your message again, more carefully now that it is getting closer to my second visit with the surgeon and my consult with the second surgeon.

Dr. Brodkey, the neurosurgeon I saw, wrote in his letter about his consultation with me:

--------------->
Impression:
Lumbar spinal stenosis L4-5, L5-S1.
Spondylolisthesis L4-5,L5-S1.
Degenerative disc change L3-4.

.. In her case I would recommend a decompression and a fusion, and the difficulty is to decide what levels to include. In her case, based on her curve and the disc degeneration and facet arthropathy, my feeling is a decompression from L3 to the sacrum would be best for her.
This is certainly a huge undertaking and does carry risk... [and he goes on to detail these..]------

Is this like what was going on with you and the kind of surgery you had?

My brother and sister both advise strongly against having surgery, before exploring and trying every possible non-surgical alternative.

Thanks!

Oh boy, Pat, that is a huge undertaking. If it would relieve your pain, though - it would be worth it. You might want to think about seeing a rehabilitation medicine specialist - two reasons: they might be able to offer you injections or other techniques to decrease your pain. Also- they could give you a feel for what a program of rehab after spinal fusion might look like. (on this point I'm biased; I worked at the Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago for 8 years :) ) You'd have to figure out if the benefits would outweigh the risks of surgery. Sending many hugs and will be praying too ..... :love: :love: :love: elyse

[phesina]

Dear Elyse, thank you for your message, and I've already seen a Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation specialist, Dr. Steven Harwood. he was referred to me by my Primary Care physician, and he referred me on to the Neurosurgeon.

Dr. Harwood referred me to the Pain Center at St. Joe's (St. Joseph Mercy Health System, with which all these people I've seen so far are affiliated), where I had the steroid shots, three times so far now. They've helped some but not 100%. Dr. Harwood referred me on to Dr. Brodkey, and then after I got Dr. B.'s report, which horrified me, I asked Dr. Harwood what else might be possible. At first (he was on vacation, and my request was relayed to him by his assistant Rebel [yes]) he said, in effect, decide on the surgery or not. I said I'm not ready to decide on the surgery without more information, which she again relayed on. The next day I had a message from her saying he would send me a physical therapy prescription. I got that, called them, and I have my first PT appointment May 14.

Meanwhile I have my follow-up appointment with Dr. Brodkey on Friday, May 2. My sister is coming with me.

I have some questions to ask him, like just how much time do I have before the situation becomes critical. He had said after the first visit that I do have time to explore options.

I also want to ask if he has any successful patients I could talk to .. What is the failure rate, where it doesn't make things better afterwards for the patient.

I will bring up what Ellie said, that she had surgery for the same problem but hers had nothing like my proposed recovery time. Why is there such a substantial difference? What is the difference between a neurosurgeon and an orthopedic surgeon, in terms of treating this?

I have a second-opinion appointment next Tuesday with an orthopedic surgeon in Southfield, MI (Detroit suburb). I can't go to Southfield, or Novi where they also have a branch, for treatment any more than I could do that extensive time stretch of treatment here. This guy is just to get some other surgical information. I'm writing more in my response to Ellie.

Thanks again, and thanks everyone ,,, :love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

[phesina]

Yes Pat - this is/was precisely my issue too. The surgery in 2010 fused the vertebrae of L4, L5 and S1 - just as you describe your issue. Normally this would have been the end of it, but my bone density is so ultra crappy that the hardware failed on one side when I took that very hard fall in November. Now that has to be repaired, and L3 will be fused also - some kind of crap going on at that level too.

I'm wondering why you elected to see a neurosurgeon rather than an orthopedic surgeon. I had a neurosurgeon do a number on me (almost paralyzed and could have killed me) when I had the cervical fusion in 2006, and it took my current spine surgeon (the orthopedic surgeon) to repair all of that damage to get me back functioning again. Even with that, I still had to retire early on disability since it left me with limitations, but at least I was alive - no thanks to the neuro doc. :mad: My entire cervical spine had to be fused from C2 to T2 - he actually saved my life. So when I had the lumbar issues, of course I went back to him. Unless you have some other issues, I don't know why your doctor says it's such a big risk. And I don't understand the 3 or 4 weeks in rehab that you mentioned earlier also - that's over the top. But of course, every doctor is different in how they do things. I had no rehab and didn't even do physical therapy. Heck - when I broke my hip I was in rehab for just under 2 weeks and the same with the cervical spine fusion.

I don't know what other options you would have other than physical therapy and epidural steroid injections. Doc said I could try the injections, but no guarantee I would get any relief if they worked at all, and it would be a temporary fix at best - he compared it to putting a bandaid on a gaping wound. I've had steroid injections in my knee and elbow, but with no relief - just a waste of time and $$$. And not to scare you, but just last week I read where the FDA issued new warnings on the epidural steroid injections - "rare but serious neurological effects, including loss of vision, paralysis, stroke and death". Nope - no way I'm going that route, no matter how rare these complications are.

I personally wouldn't let family influence any decision either, but that's up to you. You and your doctors know what's best. This condition isn't just going to go away by itself.........don't we wish, tho??? !!

My surgery has been rescheduled for May 28th. I could have had it on May 14, but then I wouldn't have been able to attend my granddaughter's graduation from college on May 21. No way I'm missing that.

So this is my side of the story - hope I shed a little more light on it for you. I just wish you lived closer - I'd take you to Baltimore to meet with my doc. He's tops in his field (specializes in all spine issues), and is very well known and respected in the area. He's a relatively young guy - in his late 40's but looks like a college kid, but he's head of the spine surgery department at the Univ of MD Med Cntr - definitely knows his stuff ! I trust him 1000%. :)

Keep me posted on your progress. Here's hoping and praying that you can get this taken care of soon, and successfully, and with as little inconvenience as possible.

Hi Ellie, wow, isn't that a difference, all right, for treatment for the same problem!

Thank you so much for your detailed and thoughtful response. I was referred to the neurosurgeon by the non-surgical (Physical Medicine and Rehab) specialist I saw, after I'd been referred to him by my primary care physician. I didn't know there were different surgical possibilities at this point and assumed I had been referred on to the best type of surgical consult.

The one I am seeing next week is an orthopedic surgeon, an "Orthopedic Spine Surgeon" according to the paperwork that clinic sent to me. And I just now noticed that he is not an MD but a DO. He was highly recommended to me by a fellow volunteer at the local Humane Society.. she said he operated on her husband in time to save him from paralysis.

Maybe I should come to Maryland to see your doctor! I'd like to see someone at U-Michigan, but I was told, when I asked the PMR guy for a referral there, that it take two to three months just to get into their system. Maybe it would be worth the wait. Dr. Brodkey did say I have plenty of time to check out all the options I wish.

When I see Dr. Brodkey on Friday, I will ask him why the long rehab time. And then there's the question, how do I manage after i get home from that long time there? There's no one who can stay with me or with whom I can go live as I recover enough to function on my own.

I also plan to ask, since I'm about to turn 70, what does age have to do with all this?

My brother Dan, who is 10 years younger than me, has extensive spinal deterioration and damage. For a long time he was involved in intense martial arts, and as my sister said, he's broken just about every bone in his body. He has been researching this quite thoroughly. He saw a surgeon at one point, said the guy told him "We can get you in in three weeks!" (At least my guy told me, take your time deciding, this is a major undertaking..) Dan said, wait a minute.. He has been doing chiropractic and getting the shots and walking and everything else he can come up with. He says he actually has been improving. He's talked with some people who've had the surgery done.. one who was happy with it but one who is much worse off. And he said he knows a guy who was a football player at one time but now after having this kind of surgery, and then other surgery to deal with complications, he's like a shriveled-up old man now. So Dan is deeply opposed to surgery as long as there is anything else you can do to deal with the pain.

I'd wondered that about the epidural shots.. seems to me I'd heard somewhere along the line that steroids are not something you want to be taking permanently (same warning re: pets) even if not very often.

I've also thought, this deterioration doesn't stop happening or get better on its own. So it's just going to keep going on.

Thanks again, Ellie!
:love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

[phesina]

Pat, I'm just now seeing this.:o I'm so sorry to hear that you're in so much pain.:( I sure hope that if you end up having surgery that it'll go smoothly and you'll finally be pain free. My mom, my aunt, and my cousin all have spinal stenosis. My mom has tried almost everything without any luck. I've also been having some lower back pain recently but I'm trying physical therapy and so far the exercises that I've been doing have really helped. The PT said that my
L4 and L5 were very stiff and my lower left side is worse than my right side. I also asked him what kind of lumbar seat cushion he'd recommend. He showed me an inflatable kind that you only blow up a little bit. It can then be strapped to your chair and will conform to your lower back. I bought one for home and one for work. So far it's also helped a lot. I go back to work on May 7th whether I'm better or not because I just can't afford to take any more time off. Good luck with everything.:)

Dear Tracey, thanks for your message and good wishes. I'm going to be trying some physical therapy soon too, and I'll see if that helps too. A friend recently gave me what I think is one of those cushions; it has an inflation opening that blows it up a bit. She didn't give me any instructions on just what to do with it, so I've been sitting against it with it both crosswise and upright. It helps some. It doesn't have straps to attach it to a chair.

Thanks again, and best wishes going back to work pain-free! :love::love::love::love::love:

[phesina]

oh dearest Pat i am so so sorry to hear you are in so much pain, thats awful, sorry i dont get to stop by much these days, but i am still here, i am thinking of you and i am glad there is something that can be done to help ease your pain, i wish you all the best for a very positive outcome, i can imagine how scarey this must be for you, i really do, you know when i was nurse aiding when i was 16 i was lucky enough to be allowed in theatre to watch a back operation a laminectomy, i have never forgotten the experience, it was amazing to see and i looked after the patient afterwards, i certainly had a lot of empathy for him.

That was a very long time ago and i am sure they have really up to date methods especially in the US and you will be just fine,take care and let us know how you go with your decision, HUGS.:love::love:

Hi Carole, thanks for your message and your loving good wishes. That is really interesting that you got to watch a laminectomy. Since you looked after the patient afterward, did it seem like the surgery helped him? That was what the surgeon I saw was proposing for me when I was there, but in his follow-up letter he changed his recommendation to more extensive surgery. I'm only beginning to learn about what all is involved in this kind of thing and what are the possibilities.

Thanks again, and I'll keep you all posted.. :love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

[Vette]

I wish you the best of luck. my dad broke his lower back when i was a kid an i remember them hours in the hospital still an the long recovery processes afterward. whatever meds he was turned his normal laid back self into a big grump. we were all so glad when he got off the meds LOL

[carole]

Pat I'm sorry.i Can't remember how successful the op was,but he walked out of there ,I think back ops can be tricky,have you made any further decisions re your surgery .

[phesina]

I think I am going to explore non-surgical alternatives thoroughly before deciding on surgery, Carole, thanks.

Pat

[phesina]

I wish you the best of luck. my dad broke his lower back when i was a kid an i remember them hours in the hospital still an the long recovery processes afterward. whatever meds he was turned his normal laid back self into a big grump. we were all so glad when he got off the meds LOL

Thank you, Vette. That must have been a terrible experience for your father (and your whole family) to go through back then. I take it he recovered with full functions?

Pat

[phesina]

I saw the surgeon, Dr. Brodkey, again on Friday. My sister came with me. He gave us an even more detailed tour of my MRI, showing just how miniscule the opening for the nerves in the bottom vertebra is.. much smaller than I'd thought from the first visit.

He also clarified just what the surgery and recovery would involve: three or four days in the hospital (which is about what you said yours took, Ellie),

and then... well, it wasn't quite what I thought when he said last time that I'd need 3 or 4 weeks in a rehab place:

I could go back home, but I would need someone to come live with me, or I'd need to go stay with someone else. In other words, I'd need someone who would take care of me, to help me with things I wouldn't be able to do alone at that point, like take a shower every day. I said, there's no one who could come stay with me and no one else I could go stay with for that.

That's when he said, well then you'll need to go to a (this time he didn't use the euphemism of rehab place) ... nursing home. For about 3 weeks. So that is the same as before.

I asked, how about a home health person, and he said that might work. So I guess I need to find out more about what is involved in getting one of them and just what they would do.

I also need to find out just how much everything is going to cost and how to pay for it. I have Medicare and a Medicare-supplement policy with Standard Life, but I somehow doubt they'd pay for everything.

I again asked Dr. Brodkey just how much time I have to explore options before I have to do something. He said, if I start having a lot of numbness and/or losing my balance a lot, that's a sign that nerve function is being affected and we'd better act quickly then.

We made another appointment for me to see him again in six weeks, so I guess he feels I'll be okay for that much time, at least.

I'm looking into getting another opinion from surgeons in the University of Michigan heath system.. see if they would have any different treatment ideas. Looks pretty clear to me just what is going on in my body.

I will be starting some Physical Therapy sessions in about a week and a half, but all the P.T. in the world isn't going to fix this, of course. I hope it might at least help to alleviate the pain, because this is getting to be quite painful.

That's the latest, folks... Thanks for all the good wishes! :love::love::love::love::love:

[Vette]

It was indeed an yes he did ^^ he walks funky now. its hard to describe but at least hes mobile an able to do almost everything he used to before it happened.

glad it to hear its not as big as you thought it was. thats good news. hope you have luck in finding a helping person. my dad didnt have any worries about that with us here with him an yeah Medicare dont covers everything. they will up to a certain amount an then you have to pay the rest. i dont know about Medicare-supplement stuffs though. maybe they aid in the sameway as Medicare does.

best of luck to you once more ^^

[pomtzu]

Glad that you were able to get some more definitive answers this time. Continue to ask anything and everything that concerns your condition and treatment.

As far as what Medicare and your supplement will pay - you will probably be surprised. Since I've been on Medicare and my supplemental insurance (United Healthcare thru AARP), I've never had to pay a penny for anything..........doctors, hospitals, labs, imaging, therapy, etc. I don't carry prescription coverage because it's rather pricey - and I don't take anything on a regular basis, and when I do have to get a prescription, then I get a huge discount as I am an AARP member. When I bought my supplemental coverage, I elected to go with the highest option possible, simply because I didn't want to be left with big medical bills to pay when Medicare didn't cover it all. I don't even have to pay any deductibles or co-pay - everything that Medicare leaves sitting on the table, United pays. Can't beat that - and both Medicare and United have paid out a HUGE amount of money for me.

Keep us posted, Pat. I hope that everything works out for the best for you. :love:

[phesina]

Thanks, Ellie. After your surgery, did you have someone who came to stay with you or you stayed with them, to help you with things like taking a shower? Or were you able to function on your own right after your surgery?

Pat

[phesina]

It was indeed an yes he did ^^ he walks funky now. its hard to describe but at least hes mobile an able to do almost everything he used to before it happened.

glad it to hear its not as big as you thought it was. thats good news. hope you have luck in finding a helping person. my dad didnt have any worries about that with us here with him an yeah Medicare dont covers everything. they will up to a certain amount an then you have to pay the rest. i dont know about Medicare-supplement stuffs though. maybe they aid in the sameway as Medicare does.

best of luck to you once more ^^

I'm glad your dad did so well, Vette.

That is something along the line of what I heard: that Medicare pays up to a certain amount, 20 days or something, and then after that it's another something like 70 days before the other policy kicks in. That would leave me thousands and thousands of dollars in debt. I need to check all this out further.

[pomtzu]

Thanks, Ellie. After your surgery, did you have someone who came to stay with you or you stayed with them, to help you with things like taking a shower? Or were you able to function on your own right after your surgery?

Pat

I was actually functioning pretty much on my own and with no trouble at all, and I just wasn't allowed to drive for 2 weeks, and of course no bending or heavy lifting for a while. I live in a mulit-generation household. I sold this house to my son and his wife (now ex-wife :D:D:D) at a dirt cheap price, with the stipulation that I was part of the package. So at the time, I had both of them to help if needed, and also my grandson. I still have my son and grandson (he's Steve's from a previous marriage), and Steve's girlfriend is here too. I don't anticipate having any more trouble this time, than I did last time - just can't do much in the way of bending and/or lifting. You might want to consider picking up a shower bench or stool - that way you can sit and not be concerned with the possibility of falling.

[phesina]

I just got a call: I now have an appointment on Thursday, June 5 with an orthopedic surgeon at U-M.

[Catty1]

I just got a call: I now have an appointment on Thursday, June 5 with an orthopedic surgeon at U-M.

Good to hear. You might just get a whole bunch of new and great information!

[pomtzu]

I just got a call: I now have an appointment on Thursday, June 5 with an orthopedic surgeon at U-M.

That's great news, Pat. I have a feeling that you'll get get a whole lot more accomplished and more definitive answers there. University teaching hospitals normally have only the best doctors and researchers on their staff. It took the Univ of MD to save my life, after a couple of local "doctors" almost killed me.

Keep us posted. On June 5th my surgery will be over and done with, and I can sit at home (hopefully not in rehab) with my laptop and recuperate and catch up on everything. :D

[phesina]

As Dr. Brodkey said when I asked about symptoms for increasing severity, if I start experiencing numbness or losing my balance.. both would signify that nerve function damage is starting to occur.

Well, last Tuesday there was some numbness on the top of my right foot and the leg was more sore.. this got more intense Wednesday.

Boy was I getting scared!

But Thursday the numbness had subsided somewhat, and it hasn't been nearly so bad since. I thought, well maybe whatever nerve had that gotten more pinched to cause the numbness, maybe it has somehow unpinched, something moved back to unpinch it some. In other words, maybe this is not a progressive condition that will just keep getting worse and worse.

Meanwhile, on Thursday I called U-M, said I was having increased symptoms and could my appointment possibly be moved up from 6/5? They rescheduled it, also with Dr. Patel, for 5/27 . That's somewhat better, anyway. I don't want to suddenly have to rush to schedule surgery after only having seen one surgeon.

So that's the latest. It's still more painful to get around.

Pat

[Catty1]

Pat - I hope you have a solution soon! It will be interesting to hear what Dr. Patel has to say - an orthopedic approach compared to the neurological approach. HUGS! :love::)

[pomtzu]

Sorry that you're having more issues with his whole mess, Pat. But yes - the numbness and balance impairment are all a part of it, and I have it all the time, tho some times are not as bad as others. Ive had this since the cervical fiasco, and then the lumbar issue made it worse. I'm hoping that my surgery on 5/28 will alleviate some of that, as well as eliminating the pain. What I find strange,, is that the leg pain only goes down to the knee, then the numbness kicks in with the foot. I wonder why there's no compromise between the knee and ankle??? I do have swelling in my foot and ankle as well as numbness on the top of the foot and the underside of 3 toes - the middle to the little toe - but not nearly as much on the 2 others. Is this what you're experiencing? My balance which is crappy to start with, is getting progressively worse, so I really have to be extra careful. You will probably see that the balance and especially the numbness will come and go - but it won't go away - so if this new doctor recommends the surgery, you really should give it serious thought.

Boy - maybe someone should just put both of us in a burlap sack and dump us off a high bridge. :eek: Just kidding of course...........:p

[phesina]

Thanks so much, Candace and Ellie.

My sister reminded me that Dr. Brodkey had said there could be "episodes" of numbness and balance impairment. I haven't had balance trouble, though I feel like I've caught myself now and then just before I might be losing balance a bit. I don't know if this is really happening or I'm just more sensitive to it maybe happening.

The pain has been going down my lower right leg too. The numbness is just on the top middle towards the front of my right foot, not under any of the toes.

So it isn't exactly the same as what you've been experiencing, Ellie, but I do notice just how similar it all is.

Thanks again, and :love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:.

[phesina]

I saw Dr. Patel, the orthopedic surgeon at U-M, last Thursday. My sister's partner Helen came with me. Dr. Patel thinks I just need to have fusion of the lowest level, L5-S1 (and not the next one or two up as Dr. Brodkey proposes) and laminectomy. He also doesn't seem to think I'd need to be in a rehab facility as long, but still it would be 12 weeks rehab, during which time I could not lift things. Helen said she and Mary Kay would help, and I know they would, but they both are very busy and there is only so much they could do.

I asked him what the different approaches would be by an ortho surgeon as opposed to a neurosurgeon. He said they do pretty much the same things at this point. They also often work together.

Marie, a good friend of Mary Kay and Helen's, has had back surgery done BY Dr. Patel. She really likes him. I am meeting her for lunch tomorrow to pick her brain.

I didn't remember to ask Dr. Patel: how much of the surgery does he actually do, or does he supervise others doing some of it. I did ask Marie, and she said she'd asked him this. He told her he does all the surgery himself, and since it is a teaching hospital he may have students there, but he demonstrates to them what he is doing, doesn't hand off any of the work. That was a relief!

I have had 4 physical therapy visits so far' 4 more are scheduled. I think it helps some, but I'm still in quite a bit of pain if I stand or walk for much times at all.

That's the latest.. :love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

[pomtzu]

So glad you posted this, Pat. I was going to send you a PM to see how you made out with the consultation. It's good that Dr Patel will do the actual surgery and that you'll know exactly who is doing what. That is the same with Dr Ludwig - UMMC is a teaching hospital and he has others there to observe and possibly assist, but I know that Dr L is the one doing the actual procedure. Makes a big difference to the patient to know just whose hands you are in. :)

Have you decided to go ahead with it? Keep us posted.

[phesina]

Thanks, Ellie! And I'm glad to know how well your surgery just went.

I'm probably going to go with Dr. Patel. They schedule surgery 2 months out, so that is plenty of time to learn as much as I can.

I asked him if he's done much of this kind of surgery. He said, many times. He kind of made it sound like, piece of cake!

:love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love: