for other Atheists out there

[COCatMama]

I believe everyone should be entitled to their own beliefs and opinions, but that they should keep their beliefs to themselves and not try to force others to believe the same. I am sick to death of people not respected my beliefs (or lack thereof) and of the 'door to door' religious types, you don't seem me banging on people's doors at 8 am on a Sunday telling them there is no god or devil etc etc, do ya? :) My family knows I'm an atheist, and for the most part, we agree to disagree (except my Gramma, she can't deal with it) With Christmas coming. I am wondering what you other Atheists/Agnostics do? I don't think of Christmas as a religious thing, but as an occasion to eat, drink and be merry with friends and family (also to give/receive gifts) I decline to 'say grace' but am quiet while others do it.

[Soledad]

Lalania -

Try planning a wedding with one half devout Catholics and the other fire and brimstone Pentecostals while you and your partner are both atheists/agnostics!!! That makes Christmas look like a day in the park.

I honor Christmas because I love the idea behind it. I like that we gather to think about others and to show the people close to us that we love them. I guess I don't regard it as too much of an issue as Christmas was a Pagan holiday that the Church made into a Christian one to make the conversion process easier.

I don't think you need to believe in God to be a good moral person who wants to celebrate once a year with their loved ones.

[COCatMama]

ack!!!! that would be a total nightmare! LOL
I have much higher morals than alot of supposed 'religious' people I know, a friend once told me that :). He was suprised at how moral I am without being religious, see I don't believe in heaven or hell, I believe you have to do 'the right thing' simply because it's the right thing to do! :D

[Soledad]

Exactly! Look at how many religious people there are in prison! Being religious is NOT a guarantee that you're a moral person. I wish more people would realise this.

I also hate that if you don't believe in God or don't know about God's existence that you're seen as having "no beliefs" and can therefore be expected to have others' beliefs imposed on your own since "you don't believe in anything, anyway." I find that insulting.

We're going to have a really great wedding filled with love and blessings from my family. I fail to see how that is not sacred.

[COCatMama]

It absolutely is sacred, and to heck with what anyone else thinks!! It's YOUR wedding! If I ever get married it will NOT be in a church because I may be a lot of things, but a hypocrite aint one of them!

[mugsy]

While I am a Christian (born and bred Catholic), I respect everyone's beliefs ( or lack thereof) as long as they respect mine. Personally I find Christmas to be terribly depressing. Did you know that in the States, President Grant in 1880 something declared Christmas to be a secular holiday?? Interesting eh?? I was listening to Bill O'Reilly the other day (who is having a hissy fit about the ACLU and it's lawsuits regarding Christmas) and he pointed that fact out. I'm not sure why personal beliefs have to turn into battle royale just because they happen to differ. I always enjoy battling it out with the Jehovah Witnesses or Mormans when they come to the house (although with the dogs, they never tend to stay very long! lol). I always start the conversation out with, "Hi, I'm Catholic and perfectly happy with my faith and I salute the flag and say the Pledge." That usually shuts them up and then we go on.

I got into an interesting debate with a JW a few months ago about evolution. By the time he left he was beginning to think about it.

As for Christmas, I'm sure we'll have to spend a simply horrible day at my sister's house with her crappy kids who treat my father like dirt and tell their kids what awful people Mike and I are. I dread holidays! lol I'm really kind of hoping to attend Midnight Mass this year, as I always INTEND to go, but fall asleep waiting!! lol

[Soledad]

I think the ACLU gets a bad rap (and I especially wouldn't expect to hear a kind word about it from O'Reilly). I don't agree with abolishing Christmas, but I support their work for equality and freedom of expression. "God" was only added into the Pledge of Allegiance in the 50s due to rabid McCarthyism. I see no reason why it has to remain based on that alone. But it is not a huge issue to me, and I could care less either way.

I just think that in this especially scary age where we see civil liberties being trampled on on a daily basis, I do take comfort that the ACLU is around. I just wish they'd focus less on Christmas and the Pledge of Allegiance than other things.

In a poll, atheists ranked the lowest in trustability rates. I find this to be a horrible prejudice. Try being an atheist/agnostic in America and you will find that it is incredibly difficult. If you're not accused of being immoral or amoral, then you're destined for a fiery end.

[Twisterdog]

Excellent question, PopcornBird. I was just thinking that same thing myself.

I firmly believe everyone has a right to their own beliefs and a right to practice (or not practice) whatever religion they choose. That is one of the benefits to living in a free country.

But Christmas, despite the historical references to paganism and secularism, is indeed practiced today as a Christian holiday, celebrating the birth of Jesus, the cornerstone of the Christian religion. If one does not believe in Jesus, why would one celebrate Christmas?

One of my employees is a Jehovah's Witness, therefore she does not celebrate Christmas, Easter, birthdays, etc. We all respect her views. However, when a customer brings goodies to us for Christmas, she is quick to eat them. Or when a customer writes a check for a Christmas bonus, she is quick to demand her share. We have all commented on the hypocracy in this ... if you don't celebrate a holiday and don't believe in the religious premise behind said holiday, that means everything to do with the holiday, IMO, not simply what is convienent.

I don't celebrate Jewish, Pagan or Muslim holidays, even though they might be fun. I am not a Jew or a Pagan or a Muslim. My brother is a Pagan, and believe me, they have some FUN holidays. But I'm not a Pagan, so it would be false for me to attend.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Christians celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ. BUT the rest of the world celebrates Christmas too.. as of what I learned on Pet Talk...:) It is a story of an older man who sent gifts to children who needed some happiness in their lives... or that is how I heard the story... so the athiest or agnostic's ... or well everyone...celebrates the Saint Nicholas part of Christmas... I am not sure where the Saint Nicholas story originated but It is fun for kids to have a holiday for getting gifts and it is just a joyus time....well it is supposed to be.... :) Hopefully I shed some light for you Popcornbird.:)

[Twisterdog]

Saint Nicholas was indeed a real person, and he is that basis of all "Santa Claus" type characters today. However, Saint Nicholas was a Catholic priest, later a bishop. Still Christian. Here are some links explaining this:

http://www.santalady.com/history.html

http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/newsletter/christmas/nick.html

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

thanks for the links Twisterdog.... the first link was the story that I heard so long ago....

[Nomilynn]

This makes me think of the move to remove "Merry Christmas" from all holiday greetings in stores, schools, etc in BC. It's a debate right now. I think it's offensive to take away Merry Christmas but still have Happy Hanukkah, Happy Eid, Happy Chinese New year, etc etc, which are all terms that are not being challenged. I am a christian and I celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ, but I also respect everyone else's choices. What I don't understand is why is it that ONLY Christmas is being challenged? That seems quite predjudiced in itself. My dad told me once, there is no reason to find it offensive when someone wishes a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukka, or otherwise (I'm sorry if I'm spelling Hanukka wrong.. I think I am??). He said, "If I say Merry Christmas to someone and they say Thanks, Happy Hanukkah back, is that not religious tolerance? Why should we be offended? That way, we are celebrating with everyone, not against anyone." His words really stuck with me, because I think it makes a lot of sense. I believe that everyone has a right to believe what they choose, but that right should also be for Christians as well. We should not have to take Christmas out of our vocabulary unless all other religious greetings are removed as well, and I think that would just be ridicuous! It's like telling everyone to wear the same clothes and eat the same food all the time. I enjoy seeing all the different traditions and think they should all be celebrated with the same respect! :)

[Soledad]

Popcornbird -

I was raised Catholic. Just because I stopped believing, does not mean that I am no longer attached to traditions. When I visit my mother, I go to church with her out of respect, because I know it means a lot to her. I even enjoy it, I just don't believe anymore.

Why would I STOP celebrating Christmas. Let's look at the vast majority of Americans for a moment. Do you think they're celebrating the birth of Christ? I don't. I think far more people view Christmas as a consumerist exchange. It's lost its religious significance in mainstream culture. Look at most Christmas movies, do you even see a reference to Jesus?

Christmas is about sharing, home, love and family. I am grateful Jesus Christ was born. I am grateful for the change he made on this earth and for his teachings. I am therefore grateful for his birth. As an agnostic, I see no problem with me indulging in a holiday that has been long divorced from its religious connotations as I probably have far more respect for it than some "Christians".

I might also add that is a public holiday, which pretty much enforces the public to acknowledge it at the least.

[Nomilynn]

Soledad - I totally agree that Christmas has become a consumerist holiday. It's not about the birth of Jesus any more for a lot of people (for some it is - I'm not saying it isn't). I think a lot of people celebrate Christmas as a cultural tradition rather than a religious holiday, and if that's how they want to celebrate, that's not a problem for me. For me, the problem is when someone says, "I don't celebrate Christmas I celebrate holiday X, but I want all the benefits that people who celebrate Christmas but I don't want Christmas to get any attention." Let me see if I can make this more clear. For example, a girl I knew once completely disagreed with everything Christmas stood for. She didn't think that people should even have the time off for it, because it was awknowleding the holiday (sorry for the bad spelling). However, you wouldn't ever see her NOT taking advantage of the Christmas break or eat the Christmas foods. I think that's very hypocritical. But for people who celebrate Christmas for their own reasons, then all the power to them!

[Barbara]

Originally posted by popcornbird
So why do Atheists celebrate Christmas? Makes me wonder. :confused: I have wondered this for years and would love to hear an answer. :)

In Northern Europe there have been feasts in mid winter already at times before Christ. It is very dark and cold then, daytime is only some hours and you feel very much like gathering round a fire, meeting your friends and relations and to make sure all of you are warm and can see some light. The candles, the green trees and the lots of food came originally from that time.

When Christianity came it added the idea of Christ's birthday to these feasts. I think you can celebrate with or without that idea. It always helps to feel closer to your family -and your cats as far as we are concerned, and to survive the dark and cold winter.

[sasvermont]

Happy Holidays to you all - or NOT. It is your choice, yes? Unless you live in a country where there is no freedom of religion... I think it is about choice...not about condeming others.

[neko1]

I too celebrate Christmas, but I am not Christian. I celebrate it for the same reasons the other atheists do- for friends and family, to be merry, and give gifts from the heart. It is totally a choice of whether or not you want to celebrate. I have no problems with that.

[COCatMama]

I said...Christmas is about spending time with family and friends for me, and about good food, exchanging gifts and watching xmas movies. and I never 'left' any religion, I was never really a christian in my whole life. Also I was raised in a family that does Xmas with Santa and the whole nine yards, My mom is a christian but not the in-your-face type, and she pretty much let me make up my own mind. I have only been forced to go to church a couple of times for weddings.


Originally posted by popcornbird
I always thought of Christmas to be a Christian "religious" holiday. Its supposed to be Christ's birthday right? That makes we wonder.................why do you atheists celebrate it? :confused: I mean, if you don't believe in God,you don't believe in Jesus, why do you celebrate Christmas? I just don't get it. Doesn't make sense to me. You leave the religion,yet when you want to have fun on the holidays, you come back to celebrate. Non-Muslims don't celebrate Eid, and Non-Jews, from my knowledge, don't celebrate Haunakkah. So why do Atheists celebrate Christmas? Makes me wonder. :confused: I have wondered this for years and would love to hear an answer. :)

[COCatMama]

Those JW's are starting to drive me crazy, I can't even take my dog for a walk on a Sunday without those weiners pestering me. I just put a hand in their face and say "I'm an Atheist, don't bother me" They try to argue but I just walk away, I revel in the fact they think I am going to burn in hell, I hate being cold anyway! :D

[jackiesdaisy1935]

I don't see why there is so much worry about Christmas, as many of you said you can celebrate or not, I don't care if you do or not, but I don't want you to tell me whether I should or not. I'm fine with the Jewish traditions, the Muslim traditions, Kwanza etc. etc.
What difference should it make to anyone whether a person celebrates any holiday or they don't? Why not let everyone celebrate any way they want whether it's Christmas or any other holiday. Are we heading for a time, when there are no traditions,
no holidays, and soon no family gatherings etc. etc?
One thing I have wondered, and a question to the Atheists, when you die if there is no heaven and no hell what happens are you reincarnated or just gone?
Jackie, Miss Daisy and Perry

[Cataholic]

I want to CELEBRATE all holidays, as many as possible, in whatever way possible. If it means people get together, in good will, to share/exchange/worship/whatever..it means they aren't fighting/hating/being alone/whatever. I never get why "someone has to feel bad in order for me to feel good"???

If you don't celebrate- simply smile, and say, "thank you". and walk on by..if you do celebrate, do so with love, and have a grand time.

It isn't any different than walking by a group having a family reunion, celebrating their family's love/history/traditions, and they welcome you to the celebration. You don't mystically 'become' a member of the family, you are just partaking in the celebration. Big whoop- look at it as doing your part for the human kind. You feel you have to make a stand? Why? In your heart you know what you believe/disbelieve, don't you? You know you have to answer or not answer to your maker or non-maker, right? So, hush up, get in the spirit...or non-spirit, smile, and go on with your life.

I think I am safe in saying have a Happy New Year...cause, factually, it is a 'new' year, and I mean nothing religious by it...

[Edwina's Secretary]

Popcornbird.....you have been so generous in explaining your faith to us...we should return the favor!

Christmas is not the highest or holiest of the Christian holidays -- that would be Easter which celebrates the mystery and meaning of Christianity -- Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. Christ was crucified so his people can be saved.

Christmas gets mixed in with lots of secular celebrations, traditions, and customs that have been described by others.

Interesting to note that Chanukah is a relatively minor Jewish holiday which has taken on more significance as the secular "fun" of the season has become more widespread.

[NoahsMommy]

Christmas has gone "main stream"....it still is a religous holiday for those that choose to celebrate that way.

Last night, I got home from my mom's Christmas Cookie Party and was still thinking how she and my stepdad had arranged their new nativity scene. He is an athiest and she is somewhat Christian (intreprets it her way and can't get over the hypocritical Christians she knows...not me!). Anyway, they had the wise men, Mary and Joseph all turned in wierd positions. Like, Mary was leaning over two sheep. Joseph was facing away from everyone. I think the closest thing to baby Jesus was a camel. It was truely funny. :D I got home and turned on a religous Christmas CD and all the sudden really got centered. I've been going on and on about how materialistic, rude, annoying and utterly mean family is acting and am losing site of WHAT Christmas is all about. To me, its not about the tree, stockings, candles, parties. It's about the birth of my Savior and I don't want to lose sight of that for anything.

I am more than tolerant of other people's beliefs....and I am because I try to understand them, not judge them. (See the EID thread, its VERY informative) I know that Johova Witnesses and Mormans aren't always fun to have at your front door, and yes, it does get annoying when they are that persistant. But if you understood WHY...you may not be as annoyed. When they come to my door, I say "Jesus is my Lord and Savior"....and they leave!

Anyway, I'm happy to see this thread is civil....

Take care!

[Soledad]

JackieDaisy -

I have no idea what happens to us when we die and make no claims to have insider knowledge to that one. We will all find out someday.

If there is a heaven and hell (which, to me, sounds about as plausible and realistic as Narnia) then all I can say is that I lived my life the way I chose, not out of fear of the afterlife, but as a moral, good but flawed person trying to figure out the big questions on my own.

My guess is that we simply die. We do not live on, but in other people's hearts and memories. So, I'd like to focus on the present and giving as much to my loved ones to remember me by fondly.

And, yes, I agree with the others that Christmas is indeed a cultural holiday at this point. I don't understand why people have a problem with non-Christians, atheists and agnostics celebrating it.

[Logan]

Our Christmas is Christ centered, just for the record. And it helps us that we attend church regularly and try to instill in our children that gifts and family gatherings are wonderful, but that Christ is the reason for the season, at all. It is so easy to get side tracked and caught up in decortions and presents, isn't it? We do our best to keep that part at a minimum and remember the reason for the celebration.

Logan

[Kfamr]

I think i'm either "Atheist" or in my own type of religion. I beleive in got to a certain point, but not to where i'm going to go to church and pray to some man whom i've never seen or spoken to, it's just not real to me. But, if that's what fires up your day, to live each and everyday to it's fullest, that's great for you. I just don't see the point in it. Maybe i'm "Nellyismic":p

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by Kfamr
I think i'm either "Atheist" or in my own type of religion. I beleive in got to a certain point, but not to where i'm going to go to church and pray to some man whom i've never seen or spoken to, it's just not real to me. But, if that's what fires up your day, to live each and everyday to it's fullest, that's great for you. I just don't see the point in it. Maybe i'm "Nellyismic":p

I was thinking more along the lines of Nelliaholic!!!!! LOL

[ramanth]

I think Soledad put it nicely. Atheists feel that when they die, they do just that. Die. Expire.

Not sure if it's on topic, but I just had to get this off my chest.

My Grandpa died this past April. He never went to church and we never said Grace at family meals. As far as I know he may of or may not of believed in God or a God.

I'm not about to ask my Grandma if he did. She just visited his grave for the first time yesterday since he passed. They knew each other since they were 11 years old and were childhood sweethearts and were married for over 70 years.

I'm just saying, my grandpa was a wonderful man and I miss him SOOOO much. He was a veteren of WWII and a retired police officer. An animal lover and like I said before, a wonderful and caring man.

I refuse to believe that God would punish him if he didn't believe in a God.

And now I must go off to cry because I miss him... I want my Grandpa back.. :( :(

[Nomilynn]

Kimmy I felt that way when my grandpa died, and he wasn't even all that nice of a man ;) He was kind of a sour old grump. I wondered where he would go, but I thint that it all works out when the time comes for everyone.

[mugsy]

I guess my philosophy is still, live and let live as long as it doesn't hurt someone else. I do NOT like to be told that I HAVE to believe one way or the other. I agree that organizations such as the ACLU are trying to make sure that happens, but in doing so have infringed on the rights of others, like people enjoying the sight of the kresh on a church lawn that they can no longer so because the ACLU has stepped in and said no. Please understand that I do NOT think that the ACLU is totally useless...they definitely serve a purpose, but when they basically say that I can't view something or have this that or the other on a calendar, that, in my humble opinion is infringing on MY rights (hmmm......I wonder if they would take my case?? lol) j/k.

As for Atheists, Agnostics, Pagans....whatever belief (or like I said before, or lack thereof), their views should be respected even if they don't mesh with your beliefs. One of my best friends on our faculty and the absolute best teacher on our staff is an atheist and knows that I am not, but yet we have a very close relationship because we respect the other's point of view. I, personally, would feel very lost if the blind faith of believing in an afterlife, and take great comfort in believing so, so that I don't have to feel that when a loved one dies that I will never see that person again. However, many people DO believe that there is no afterlife and that when you die you die and that's it. Will I try and change their minds? No...it's not my place, nor is it my business. I find interesting aspects of all world religions, yet feel most comfortable in my own "skin" being Catholic.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

lol cataholic... I like your reply... why doesn't everyone just accept the fact that there is a celebration going on and join in?!!?!?:D :D

And yeah Christmas has become so commercialized..... I like buying gifts for the kids in my family.... but I don't like getting stressed out getting all the shopping done and sitting in holiday traffic..... I am a christian and we ALWAYS read the Christmas story (the birth of Jesus) out of the Bible before we open our presents... I hate getting lost in all of the hustle and bustle and just wish it could be all about baby Jesus' birth.

[Soledad]

Mugsy -

I often wonder how many people cling to religion, not so much out of faith or belief, but out of fear of punishment or desperation over the thought of no afterlife. It's an interesting question.

[COCatMama]

I have often wondered that myself Soledad...

[mugsy]

Again, I say, I respect everyone's right to live as they choose and do not judge them based on their beliefs. That being said, I don't understand why judgements are being passed now.

My faith stems from a deep seeded belief that God created Earth and molded all that's on it. I am an evolutionist through and through, but believe that a higher Being started it all and followed the procession of creation of different species. I am not afraid of anything. I do believe in reincarnation also, BUT, I also don't believe that the soul just ceases to exist. It just doesn't make sense. While I do believe that most organized religion is based on the guilt factor (be a good person or go to hell) which I have a big problem with also. Who are THEY to judge what happens to your soul after death...I think that's why God exists, and to that extent I would say that organized religion is hypocritical. I do not believe in all of teachings of the Catholic religion, but I feel more comfortable with more of their teachings than other religions.

As for Atheists not believing in Jesus Christ, I don't know any Atheists that don't believe in the man. They just don't believe that he is the Son of God. The man Jesus Christ was a great philosopher and historian. Lalania, do you dispute the fact that he lived? I'm guessing not. But please, please, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Soledad]

Mugsy -

I don't see where there are judgments being made. If you were referring to my post, I'm sorry for that misunderstanding. I was just wondering how many people do do that, not that you did, as I believe FAR more people have faith and believe for the right reasons than not.

Popcornbird -

I think the whole point we were trying to make is that Christmas has morphed into a secular holiday of sorts. One does not have to be a Christian to celebrate it, as it has become a cultural event.

I believe in Jesus. I believe he was a great man who had great things to say. But I don't believe he was God on earth. There's a difference there. Much like the distinction that you probably draw with Jesus as a Muslim.

As for Easter, I celebrate it if my mother is having family over for dinner or something. I have attended Mass with her on Easter, because it makes her happy and because I find Mass to be comforting and wonderful even if I don't believe anymore. I grew up going to temple with my Jewish friends and participating in Hindu ceremonies at friends' houses. I was always welcomed and I always enjoyed it.

I love sacred places. To me sacred places can be churches, cathedrals, mosques, temples, libraries, museums, mountains and parks. I don't think I have to be a Christian to value having traditions that involve family and friends. And I don't think one needs to believe in God to want to feel these traditions and emotions.

Spirituality is a lot more flexible than that.

[mugsy]

Soledad, yours was only part of it. Thank you for the apology, but, it was unneccessary. I just can't get where people can't just listen to what's being said without passing judgement on it. And trust me...most people on here are wonderful nonjudgemental people. But, like I said before...live and let live. I just like to talk to lots of different people and get lots of different perspectives.

[Soledad]

I never meant anything as a judgment. People speculate constantly about why others are not religious, and I speculate about both why the are and why they aren't. Don't see how that's offensive or treading on anyone's beliefs.

[mugsy]

With that explanation, I understand now where you were coming from. When we lose the ability or desire to question, I think all is lost. Thanks for explaining.

[COCatMama]

I believe "jesus" was just a regular Joe like the rest of us who probably had some pretty wild stuff happen to him. I believe he was in a coma-like state for days then woke up, hence the coming back from the dead idea. I am ultimately a pretty logical person...soooo like I said before believe what ya want and to heck with what anyone else thinks :)

[kimlovescats]

I typically don't like to get involved in religious "debates". I do however want to make one comment here.

I am a christian, and speaking for myself, and presumably most other christians. Christians are often misunderstood and accused of "shoving religion down throats" of other beliefs. I am trying hard not to be guilty of that, but it is extremely hard not to try and "witness" to non-believers. See .... that is the core responsibility for christians .... we want to share the joy we have found in our salvation experience with others .... not shove it down people's throats. Speaking for myself, when I read about other non-Christian beliefs, I am saddened ... not mad or disgusted with the person!!! We, as christians are taught to share with others, and to spread the word of God ... so please, don't take it as "shoving" or "holier than thou" attitudes! I know that I am genuinely concerned for people's souls.

[COCatMama]

But see, that's what drives the rest of us nuts, the 'witnessing'...you don't see us atheists walking into a church on Sunday and unwitnessing people right? :) the JW's think their religion is the only 'right' one and everyone else is goin' to he11, so they have to run around trying to 'convert' people. And don't be sad, I'm not sad for you!! and don't worry about my soul, it's just fiiiiiiiine :).


Originally posted by kimlovescats
I typically don't like to get involved in religious "debates". I do however want to make one comment here.

I am a christian, and speaking for myself, and presumably most other christians. Christians are often misunderstood and accused of "shoving religion down throats" of other beliefs. I am trying hard not to be guilty of that, but it is extremely hard not to try and "witness" to non-believers. See .... that is the core responsibility for christians .... we want to share the joy we have found in our salvation experience with others .... not shove it down people's throats. Speaking for myself, when I read about other non-Christian beliefs, I am saddened ... not mad or disgusted with the person!!! We, as christians are taught to share with others, and to spread the word of God ... so please, don't take it as "shoving" or "holier than thou" attitudes! I know that I am genuinely concerned for people's souls.

[Ann]

Well, kudos to you for having the guts to start this thread! :rolleyes:

I think the answer on why we celebrate Christmas has already been explained so I won't repeat it all again. As for the whole shoving down throat/witnessing thing, Lalania said it all again.

[K9karen]

Well.....this is what makes the world go round..
Controversal - esp; for PT but I love the fact we can broach a
subject, keep it respectful, disagree and still (hopefully) like each other. I do like having a menagerie of friends, makes life interesting.
But can we PLEEAAASSEEE not start any political ???:eek:
HAPPINESS TO ALL

[lizbud]

One comment only: I don't think a Pet Talk forum is the
the place for ANY discussion of either Religion or Politics.

Unless it is somehow tied to animal interests, it's strickly
a "people" issue and best left to another board.

[kimlovescats]

Lizbud... I think that's why it's on the General board! ;)

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Lalania
But see, that's what drives the rest of us nuts, the 'witnessing'...you don't see us atheists walking into a church on Sunday and unwitnessing people right? :) And don't be sad, I'm not sad for you!! and don't worry about my soul, it's just fiiiiiiiine :).
Let me explain...

Say, you found this great and wonderful vet, product, food or medicine. And it did wonders for you...it was wonderful...you had tried other vets/products/food/medicines and they didn't cut it, didn't answer all your questions, left you upset you spent too much money on something that didn't work, tasted gross or didn't help your illness (using reference from above). You are now super excited about this new thing and you want your freinds to benefit from this new thing (or whatever it is). By offering it to your friend, you are helping him/her avoid an over-priced product, a bad vet, a gross food item or a medicine with bad side effects that doesn't work.

THIS is what Christians are doing when the "witness". There isn't a quota we have to get and we don't keep a tally going. Its something that is done purely from the heart....

And that is all it is. We aren't trying to "win" you over to "our" side...we are wanting to share this great thing that transformed our lives.

A polite person would lay off if this wasn't welcomed, but you can't condemn all Christians or people that want to share with you.

[kimlovescats]

Very well said, Noah's mommy.

[mugsy]

I have found that no matter what religion or lack there of people are, they tend to think that their choice is the best. The problem comes in when they don't recognize the fact that the religion is best for THEM and not everyone else. I understand feeling badly, but for whom are you feeling badly?? In all actuality, NO ONE knows what happens at or after death, so I guess at some point we'll all know eh??? Like that Candian touch Lalania??

[Cataholic]

I met this guy once, and we went on a few dates...maybe two or three, and spent time talking on the phone. Well, at some point, we got into some more serious topics...and one of them was religion, and he told me he was a athesist!!! I must have looked confused...and he said, "but, I know I told you this before"...and I am thinking, "uh, no, somehow I think I would have remembered you mentioning this fact"...

We went on to ARGUE the point- he told me VS he didn't tell me...and I am thinking- how strange does he think I am that I wouldn't remember such a topic...turns out...he ONLY had close friends that shared his non-belief....he liked me...maybe a tad more than I him, but...it was a deal breaker for me...as I am sure it would have been for him later on down the pike...

[Ann]

Originally posted by K9karen
But can we PLEEAAASSEEE not start any political ???:eek:

That so felt aimed to me LOL! Well, I won't start anything, I'll only mention it if I feel the need to reply to something political someone else said :p

NoahsMommy, you can't compare that. Everyone knows about Christianity, it's not as if it's an obscure thing like a new vet or something. Get what I mean? And as mugsy said, everyone has what they feel is best for themselves, so why push them?

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Ann
NoahsMommy, you can't compare that. Everyone knows about Christianity, it's not as if it's an obscure thing like a new vet or something. Get what I mean? And as mugsy said, everyone has what they feel is best for themselves, so why push them?

You may not be able to compare those things. But in my heart...this is how I honestly feel. I know you don't know whats in my heart, but I do.

You failed to notice that another Christian agreed with me.

I'm sure it sounds wierd being so plain the way I put it, but, again, this is how is REALLY is to many "normal" Christians. (By normal, I am not talking about JW or Mormans)

You know from a few PM's and other posts where we've talked, I've never pushed anything on anyone. I've already said in my previous post that said those who persist or "attack" are very unpolite.

[NoahsMommy]

Sorry Ann....I don't think I fully read your post. Let me respond again...

Regarding Christianity not being new, I agree. What I was referring to was the "transformation" of the mind and soul. For example, feeling less stressed/worried about every little thing, being fearful, etc. That is what I meant...

Just like say a medicine relieved some sort of psychological/physiological ailement. You would want to know if it worked, right? I never said "new". So, what I said was if I found this great thing....mind you, it could have been any religion, yoga, anything at all....I want to share. I know that religion is a hot button, but why should that prevent me from sharing something that helped me out.

Again, if I were to persist if I was recieved negatively....that would be rude...

[Ann]

I understand where you're coming from, but I still don't really think they could be compared IMHO. Another reason for this is that most Atheists have been Christian from the beginning and then left their faith.

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Ann
I understand where you're coming from, but I still don't really think they could be compared IMHO. Another reason for this is that most Atheists have been Christian from the beginning and then left their faith.
I am sure it wont make sense, but this is truely how I see it and how I feel.

Although, I did like that someone else of the Christain faith agreed with me. That should tell you something.

[Soledad]

Just to address the Christian sentiment that you feel pity for non-believers, I would like to ask you why you feel that is not an offensive or patronising thing to say?

What if an atheist were to say to you: wow, I feel sorry for you for believing in God, it's so obviously wrong.

Now, that's not the way I feel, but I would never say or think that about anyone. I find that sort of comment condescending.

[Twisterdog]

My two cents worth on Christian "witnessing" ......

I was raised Christian in a denomination that firmly believed in "witnessing" to others. I never felt comfortable with it. I don't belong to that church any longer.

I believe that they way you live your life and the happiness, peacefulness and joy you have speak louder than any words. I am totally turned off by Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, because they go door to door and try to convert people. If you live your life well, and hold yourself to your own moral and ethical code, others will notice, and if they are interested, they will ask. Then you can tell them about your religion.

Christians don't like to be solicited by other religions. Why do Christians feel it is ok to try to convert others? I remember nothing made my mom madder than the Hari Krishnas in the airports when I was a kid. She was simply livid to think some other religion had the nerve to try convert Christians to their religion. However ... she always put money in the offering plate for the missionary society of our church.

Hmmmm......

[Kfamr]

Let's all have a nice warm cup.

[Cookiebaker]

Originally posted by Twisterdog
My two cents worth on Christian "witnessing" ......

I believe that they way you live your life and the happiness, peacefulness and joy you have speak louder than any words. I am totally turned off by Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, because they go door to door and try to convert people. If you live your life well, and hold yourself to your own moral and ethical code, others will notice, and if they are interested, they will ask. Then you can tell them about your religion.

Hmmmm......

Twisterdog, of all the replies on here, I agree with you the most. The number of times I have seen Christians that "talk the talk" but don't "walk the walk" is incredible. Even those who claim to have all the answers.That is one of my biggest pet peeves about Christians that go around and "preach". I believe that if I live the joy that is in my heart (that is there because I am a believer) that is going to speak more volumes than if I try to hash out technicalities with someone who doesn't want to know anyway. Just my .02.

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Soledad
I would like to ask you why you feel that is not an offensive or patronising thing to say?
I agree that it is very patronizing. Its like saying that someone is clueless and basically hopeless.

But...I don't think you understand where its coming from.

My response or "excuse" for it would be what I've said above. The feeling of saddness is that "you" are living without this great thing (insert anything here to apply to your life). That is where that statement is coming from.

If you simplify it, it makes much more sense and doesn't involve too much emotion.

[mugsy]

My question for the JWs and Mormons or the witnessing, if your religion is so much better than everyone else's shouldn't it just be a matter of time before everyone would convert to it?? I guess I've always felt that if you have to flaunt it then you must not be totally comfortable with it and are trying in a round about way to convince yourself.

I was talking to my colleague today and was telling him about this thread and he was in total agreement that if you believe that it's right for you, then do it, but leave everyone else out of it..even though you believe it best for the world. He and his wife are both atheists and are quite content with their lives. He has beautiful property, a loving wife, a comfortable house, plenty of money and is the most self assured person I know.

Even though I like most of what the Catholic church is about, I refuse to go out and tell people that they should convert. It's not my place. I also don't think you should feel sorry for anyone for what they believe...it's what's right for them, unless of course they believe in mass murder or something like that.

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Cookiebaker
The number of times I have seen Christians that "talk the talk" but don't "walk the walk" is incredible.
I totally agree....but this is also where the "and they say they are Christian" comes from too. (I hear this repeatedly from my mom about other people) My input? Show me the church that allows someone to walk in and forever be perfect...

I know you meant those who "talk" endlessly and judge others....but this came to mind too. :)

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

my two cents..

I too agree with how Noah's mommy put it...... when you find something wonderful that changes your life you have to tell somebody.

I honestly don't understand why athiest are offended when a christian tries to witness to them... I mean I do if they are rude or too persistant.... I mean ... I believe in Heaven and Hell and my beliefs are if you are not a christian... (having asked Christ into your heart)... and TRY to live a moral life you have eternal consiquences... now .... I know God is real... when I got saved and really got on fire for God he started revealing himself to me.. and no one in the world could ever convince me that he was not real because of what I have witnessed... Now it is so wonderful how he has changed my life and how could I not tell anyone?..... Some people think when you get saved you have to life like a nun... and that is not how it is... God helps you change your life you don't have to drop everything cold turkey.. he helps you.... but you have to ask for his help.
sorry to blabber on... I really am trying to make a point.....
ANYWAY.... I have talked to other athiest and one thing I didn't realise is how educated they are..... my brother in law was raised in church and believed his whole life until he went to college..... my brother in law is VERY intelligent... and having evolution CRAMMED down his throat...(talk about someone pushing THEIR beliefs on you) he started to question the existance of God... He is very anilitical and I think that is why most people are athiest... is because they are very smart and realise there is an answer for every question... Well the only thing is you have to believe to get the answers about God... my brother in law is now saved and it is amazing talking to him.... seeing how the points of view are from both sides of the spectrum....

blah ... blah... blah... hope I made some kind of point...;)

[NoahsMommy]

Sara,
I totally know what you mean...and of course, we end up looking like complete weaklings or idiots because we believe in something that you can't "SEE or TOUCH". But you are right, you do see things...not in the literal sense. Its totally and completely amazing...this, from a logical mind. :)

Its so hard to explain "witnessing" and that I've never just done it cause I wanted to convert someone. I would never just run around reciting the bible or walk up to someone on the street and start talking about Jesus. On the rare times that I do talk to a "stranger" about God, it is initiated by the other person...not me. Its not in my personality to push my beliefs on ANYONE, EVER. And when I find myself talking about my personal beliefs, a small voice in my head is asking what on earth I'm doing... ;) It truely feels like I'm suposed to talk about God when those few times have arised...like I wasn't the one making that decision.

I'm sure this sounds so totally crazy to you all...but maybe it can add some insight into WHY people "witness". (I totally hate that word...its has a stigma attached to it.)

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Yeah it is hard trying to expalin witnessing.... I am sure there are A LOT of people going about it the wrong way..... Like there is a man in downtown Atlanta who holds a sign and shouts "REPENT OR YOU WILL GO TO HELL".... I mean NO ONE... is going to flock to you and want to listen to you..... you shouldn't tell them all about hell but about the wonderful things Christ does for you...:D

[NoahsMommy]

Yet another thing that gives organized religion a bad name.

I told a friend from work that I went to church (I was asked what I did that weekend) and when I said "Sunday was church and so and so" he puffed up and said "Oh....are you one of THOSE born agains?" and did this :rolleyes: I love how I'm suposed to respect other people opinions, but if I chose to be religous, I'm not respected....

This is standard practice in California. I'm not saying this happens all the time. But I continually hear about things mentoined in this thread, but the opposite side is NEVER addressed.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Isn't it strange that sometimes ones who make fun of Christians because we believe in things unseen, will consult psychics? Just an observation.

I've found the best witness is how I live my life. If I treat everyone else with respect and enjoy my life, sometimes people want to find out about it. If they do, fine. If not, fine. I don't worry much about what others think of me anymore. They aren't the ones I'll have to give an account of my life to.:)

[mugsy]

I have believed in God all of my life and don't plan on changing now. But, when Max ate 72,000 mg of ibuprofin and 800 mg can be fatal in dogs and he lived and has no ill effects, that gave me my epiphany (sp?). I have never prayed so hard in all my life as I did that night. The emergency vet said that he had NEVER seen nor heard of a dog surviving after injesting that much. When we had left at 9:30pm, the vet told us to say our goodbyes because he would most likely never come out of his coma. An hour later the vet tech noticed him chewing on the breathing tube, so she pulled it out and he was breathing on his own. When Mike called at 1am he was awake and alert and responsive to his name. When I called at 6:30am he had been up and gone outside to go potty. When I went in at 12:30pm he and I were playing ball in the room. I firmly believe that God sent a guardian angel to Max and the vet that night. Now, do I expect anyone else to change their beliefs because of what happened to me??? No! Nor would I ever even attempt to change their minds. However, I would TELL them about it and what the vet said saved his life, but not in a way to try and convert them to Christianity. Religion or lack of religion is probably THE most personal thing in your life, you need to follow your heart.

PS( Max is now called by the vet staff at the emergency vet Miracle Max or Max the Wonder Weim!! lol)

[Uabassoon]

I don't really belong to an organized religion, I was raised Catholic, even went to Catholic school. I try to live my life as best as possible, I 'm always willing to help everyone and try to treat people with the same respect that I want. But for my own personal reasons I left the Catholic church. But I'm never really bothered or offeneded when someone tries to "witness" me. One of my good friends is morman and we have had many discussion about her religion and she tells me what it has done for her and I am able to see what it has done for her. I don't feel like she is trying to push me into anything, but she's just sharing with me. We both respect each other and she respects and understands my reasons for choosing to leave my church. I really enjoy our discussions that we have.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Amen Mugsy!
And lets not forget our other miracle pups Perry and Miss. Daisy!!:D :D

[Twisterdog]

Since we're discussing religion ... and doing it nicely, too, I might add! .... let me throw this is ....

This has always made my mom (a VERY Christian lady) see red when I bring it up, so I may be in for it here ... but here goes ...

I have always thought that what religion you happen to be is based very much on geography ... where you happen to be born. The United States and Europe are basically Christian areas. Chances are, if you happen to be born in the USA, England, France, etc., you are going to be born into a Christian household, raised Christian, raise your children Christian.

However .... if you would have happened to have been born in India instead, you would probably be a Hindu today. Or if you were born in Iran, you would probably be a Muslim. And if you were born a Hindu or a Muslim, you would, without a doubt, feel that your religion was the "right" religion ... just as you happen to feel that Christianity is the "right" religion now, having been born in the USA.

I realize there are exceptions - people that relocate or convert. But for the most part, what religion you are is determined by where you were born and raised.

I have told my mom - when she is telling me that Christianity is the "right" religion and all the rest are "wrong" because the Bible says so - that if she had been born in Iraq or India, she would be a good and faithful Hindu or Muslim today, thinking that Christianity is the "wrong" religion, because the Qu'uan (sp?) says so. She does NOT appreciate that thought .. but I think it is true, nonetheless.

Thoughts???

[KYS]

Tolerance of man/woman kind for all religious beliefs.

I was brought up to respect all religions as long
as you do not use the name of religion to harm your
fellow human being.

Man wrote/interpets the Bible, and each religion has their own Bible, so who is to say who's bible is correct?

It's what you do through out your life and how you
treat your fellow humans/creatures that is important.

And I will never understand how any religion
can preach, that no matter how good of a person
you might be, you will not go to heavon if you
do not believe in my G-d.
I believe those perly gates are open to all living creatures
who are good and not evil.

[Kfamr]

Here's another thing, I beleive in Miricales....[like Max and Daisy and Perry] I just don't beleive "God" is who makes them. People make them.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Yes people help make some miracles happen.. but God gives us the knowledge to do it....
There are some miracles that people have no controll over like how fast Perry and Daisy healed... or like me for instance... When I was three years old my intestines burst and I should have died.... my parents rushed me to the hospital and the doctors did their work but only God kept me alive... I should have been long gone... but God had his hand on me and the doctors... the doctors only performed the surgery but God kept me alive and made the surgery a success... people are only human..... ;) Hope I am not offending anyone.:)

[wolf_Q]

Originally posted by NoahsMommy



I'm sure it sounds wierd being so plain the way I put it, but, again, this is how is REALLY is to many "normal" Christians. (By normal, I am not talking about JW or Mormans)



Uhh...what is this supposed to mean? Mormons are Christians, and we definitely are "normal." I'm sorry, but I don't think a person of *any* religion enjoys being lumped into one type of person like you all are stating.

Ok yes, I'm sure some of the missionaries that come are annoying, like in a group of people there will *always* be annoying ones....but that doesn't mean they are *all* awful like you guys act! My brother spent 2 years of his life in Switzerland. Missionaries don't just "preach"...they help people. I know he did a lot of volunteer work, and he touched many people's lives. He didn't have a "quota," actually, he really did not get many baptism's at all...but he fell in love with the people of Switzerland, no matter what religion they were.

We are taught to be tolerant of all religions. Our church does NOT tell us to go out and "preach" to every person we see. One of my best friend's is Catholic. Do I care? NO. I find it very interesting to learn about another religion. Our church is not as much of a well-known and world-spread religion as some of the others, that is why we send out missionaries.

Yes, as with any religion, there are those who feel they are better then everyone, and look down upon the rest. I know, some of my neighbors are bad that way, and I can't stand the "goody-goody" type. But I really would like to inform you that maybe you should not judge an entire religion by a few people anymore.

You may remember the Olympics were held in Salt Lake City this year. I don't remember seeing even one advertisement for our church. In fact, walking down town Salt Lake City all I received was a bunch of anti-mormon crap. I see more advertisements for other religions then I do my own.

Not that I'm the most religious person in the world...I'm not...I haven't been to church in at least 3 years. My family is religious, and believe what the church teaches....I'm just not on very friendly terms with most of my neighbors that go to the church.

Sorry, I think I just heard the world "Mormon" too many times in this thread not to comment (by the way, just FYI, we are actually called members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or LDS)

p.s. I realized now that this sounds like the entire post is directed at NoahsMommy, but it is not...that just happens to be the line I quoted...

[Ann]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
having evolution CRAMMED down his throat...(talk about someone pushing THEIR beliefs on you)

You go to school to learn facts. Evolution is a fact and is proven. God is not. Religion is supposed to be a personal choice, education isn't. Do you see the difference?

wolf_q, I agree with you. A good online friend of mine is a member of LDS, and she is the best Christian I have ever met. What I mean by that is that she's never ever tried pushing her views on me, she has taken in many abused kids and raised them from all over the USA and she has hundreds of foster kids in other countries. When the government in Utah (that's where she lives) needs a temporary home for an abused child they go to her, and no matter how much personal troubles she might have she takes them in without hesitation.

[kohala]

This has been fun reading!! My turn!

:)Look into your pet's eyes



:)Imagine



:)Love is a state of being, not an emotion

Walk in beauty

Focus on our commonalities, and our differences diminish

:)Do you feel good?

It's with you even when you aren't with it

Love

[Soledad]

Popcornbird -

I am not sure that any atheist on this thread said that they don't believe in God because they can't see him. If they did, it wasn't me.

I am not even technically an atheist. I lean towards agnosticism, but my concept of God, should it exist, is more of a force or an energy or simply something our tiny human minds can't possibly understand. My guess is that if there is a God, it is not out there writing down and keeping score of the insignificant details of our lives. And even should this God exist, I don't necessarily believe that means there is an afterlife. No one KNOWS about that one, but we'll all find out someday.

I don't go to psychics or anything else like that. However, I do believe in supernatural things, because I do not think science has advanced enough to explain these happenings. I know that my friend had brain surgery and afterwards she continues to have very strange flashes of an event that eventually happens to her. There is simply not enough knowledge about the brain for us to understand these things.

I am not immediately offended if some one wants to come up to me and discuss religion. What I get offended by are people pitying me because I don't believe what they believe, or people (who I thought were supposed to belong to a religion that says not to judge) telling me that I will burn in hell for my beliefs.

I don't need anyone's pity for what I believe. I think I'm a big enough person to have developed my own belief system without feeling the need to patronise others and click my tongue at them because they are childish in believing in such silly stuff as heaven, hell and some book a bunch of people wrote. I RESPECT religious people, I want to learn about other religions, but I also want to be treated with the same respect.

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by wolf_Q
Uhh...what is this supposed to mean? Mormons are Christians, and we definitely are "normal." I'm sorry, but I don't think a person of *any* religion enjoys being lumped into one type of person like you all are stating.

You are right....I completely worded that wrong. It should have been worded to say that "this is what I know from the religion I beleive in."

Sorry about that, now that I re-read it, it sounded horrible.

[COCatMama]

I wouldn't run around to people saying 'oh i love this XYZ vet, pet product' etc. I would give them my opinion when asked! the lady at work was looking for a steamer to give her daughter for Xmas and took me along with her for a lunch hour shopping expedition, I told her I have a steamer and pointed out the same brand at the store, I told her I've had it for years and I like it, so she bought one.
I expect people to treat me that way about religion, if I ASK for an opinion on someone's particular religion, then by all means, educate me, but if it is UNSOLICITED, well....I will take offense to that.
And as for this being a 'controversial' thread, there are other religious threads here right now, so why can us Atheists not have our own thread? my intention was NOT to start a war, but to have a discussion with like-minded individuals.

[babolaypo65]

Originally posted by Cookiebaker


Twisterdog, of all the replies on here, I agree with you the most. The number of times I have seen Christians that "talk the talk" but don't "walk the walk" is incredible. Even those who claim to have all the answers.That is one of my biggest pet peeves about Christians that go around and "preach". I believe that if I live the joy that is in my heart (that is there because I am a believer) that is going to speak more volumes than if I try to hash out technicalities with someone who doesn't want to know anyway. Just my .02.

[babolaypo65]

sorry. didnt mean to hit post quite so quickly.
i have an ignorant, innocent query...
i've never experienced LDS going door to door.
i know i've received materials (unsolicited) from JW but have never known LDS to just show up at a door unrequested. i lived across from a LDS "missionary residence" (for lack of proper term) for 6 years. was never approached (except the time i was hauling wood up stairs and they offered to help)
just curious about that.

Originally posted by Cookiebaker


Twisterdog, of all the replies on here, I agree with you the most. The number of times I have seen Christians that "talk the talk" but don't "walk the walk" is incredible. Even those who claim to have all the answers.That is one of my biggest pet peeves about Christians that go around and "preach". I believe that if I live the joy that is in my heart (that is there because I am a believer) that is going to speak more volumes than if I try to hash out technicalities with someone who doesn't want to know anyway. Just my .02.

[babolaypo65]

was actually trying to quote THIS one.... snipped the wrong one. sorry.
(regarding LDS going door to door)

"Originally posted by Twisterdog
My two cents worth on Christian "witnessing" ......

I believe that they way you live your life and the happiness, peacefulness and joy you have speak louder than any words. I am totally turned off by Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, because they go door to door and try to convert people. If you live your life well, and hold yourself to your own moral and ethical code, others will notice, and if they are interested, they will ask. Then you can tell them about your religion.

Hmmmm......

[Twisterdog]

Maybe it depends on where you live. I live in Wyoming, and there are a lot of LDS people here, and they are forever going door to door, more so than the JW's do. Probably different churches have different philosophies, but the LDS people here are BIG on door to door "witnessing".

I HATE it when people ring my door bell and try to convert me. HATE it. But, in all fairness, I hate it when ANYone rings my door bell and tries to sell me something ... be it a vacuum cleaner, a magazine subscription, or their religion. I find it incredibly rude.

[COCatMama]

I hate that too....I just open the door and if it's obvious they are soliciting i say "I'M NOT INTERESTED" and shut the door in their face. I also despise phone spam! once some...some....phone spam loser called and I knew right away they were spamming because they asked for "Mr. or Mrs. Roberts" I asked 'who's calling?' and they said "blah blah from XYZ company we'd like to offer" I cut the twit off "Sorry, I'm not interested, take us off your phone list" He/she said "Are you Mrs. Roberts, you don't sound old enough" or something. I FREAKED RIGHT OUT!!! " I SAID we are NOT INTERESTED and take us OFF your phone list before I file a phone harassment complaint!" He had the audacity to ask me my age.....ohhhh boy I was sooooooooooo mad.

[COCatMama]

Sweet!!!!!! Juneau is not enough to deter the JWs unfortunately! but *I* am !!! :D

[Twisterdog]

Ah, yes, phone solicitors ... hate em!! Try owning a business - I get SO many obnoxious phone calls!

I am to the point that I just have fun toying with them now. I have a line for all of them ... if they are selling newpapers or magazines, I tell them I'd love to have a subscription, but could they please send me the braille edition, because I am blind. ;-)

Sometimes I pretend I don't speak English.

I have told them I am in the process of selling all my worldly possessions and joining a convent, and that I would be happy to have some of the "sisters" come speak to them about the eternal damnation of their souls, if they would be so kind as to give me their address.

I have told phone solicitors that I died before, too. Hee hee hee. When they ask for me, and mis-pronounce my name, I just say, "Oh, are you calling from the funeral home?" When they stammer I say, "Oh, no! You didn't hear about the accident?!" and I start to sob hysterically. Trust me, NOTHING makes them leave you alone but death! ;)

Some days, if it weren't for cheap thrills ..... ;)

[COCatMama]

OMG that's HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!



Originally posted by Twisterdog
Ah, yes, phone solicitors ... hate em!! Try owning a business - I get SO many obnoxious phone calls!

I am to the point that I just have fun toying with them now. I have a line for all of them ... if they are selling newpapers or magazines, I tell them I'd love to have a subscription, but could they please send me the braille edition, because I am blind. ;-)

Sometimes I pretend I don't speak English.

I have told them I am in the process of selling all my worldly possessions and joining a convent, and that I would be happy to have some of the "sisters" come speak to them about the eternal damnation of their souls, if they would be so kind as to give me their address.

I have told phone solicitors that I died before, too. Hee hee hee. When they ask for me, and mis-pronounce my name, I just say, "Oh, are you calling from the funeral home?" When they stammer I say, "Oh, no! You didn't hear about the accident?!" and I start to sob hysterically. Trust me, NOTHING makes them leave you alone but death! ;)

Some days, if it weren't for cheap thrills ..... ;)

[kohala]

Originally posted by Twisterdog
Ah, yes, phone solicitors ... hate em!! Try owning a business - I get SO many obnoxious phone calls!

I am to the point that I just have fun toying with them now. I have a line for all of them ... if they are selling newpapers or magazines, I tell them I'd love to have a subscription, but could they please send me the braille edition, because I am blind. ;-)

Sometimes I pretend I don't speak English.

I have told them I am in the process of selling all my worldly possessions and joining a convent, and that I would be happy to have some of the "sisters" come speak to them about the eternal damnation of their souls, if they would be so kind as to give me their address.

I have told phone solicitors that I died before, too. Hee hee hee. When they ask for me, and mis-pronounce my name, I just say, "Oh, are you calling from the funeral home?" When they stammer I say, "Oh, no! You didn't hear about the accident?!" and I start to sob hysterically. Trust me, NOTHING makes them leave you alone but death! ;)

Some days, if it weren't for cheap thrills ..... ;)

Great Suggestions!!!!! Gotta try 'em.

[popcornbird]

I actually love it when Christians/Mormons come knocking at our door trying to convert us. We invite them in for tea and a little talk in which WE tell them about our religion and they tell us about their's. In the end, they always end up getting so impressed with Islam and take our phone number before they leave so they can call and talk again sometime. We once had two Mormon girls in their early twenties come to talk to us about their religion. They wanted us to convert, but well, we talked to them about Islam and they were so impressed and took our phone number. We gave them both a Quran translation copy. A few months later one of the girls came back and asked us for our mosque's phone number because she read the Quran and did lots of research on Islam and decided it was the religion for her. She converted the next week. So it turned out that she came to convert us, but we converted her instead. :)

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

originally posted by Ann
You go to school to learn facts. Evolution is a fact and is proven. God is not. Religion is supposed to be a personal choice, education isn't. Do you see the difference?

Actually evolution has never been proven ... that is why it is called the evolution theory... and Education is a choice.. but like Christianity is a religion .... I believe evolutionist are in a religion too. They have a lot of faith to believe in evolution.. because no one has ever seen evolution. It was just a good guess. And if no one is making people take christianity courses in college we shouldn't make us learn about some theory. And too he said they didn't just teach it they were VERY rude to christians and would talk to him like he was an idiot for believing in God and that is uncalled for from a professor. There is a website www.creationevidence.org where there are scientist who have come out and finally convinced themselves that evolution just could not have existed. In the website it gives scientific proof that evolution could not have existed and there had to be a greater creator. It is very interesting if you want to take the time and read it. :)

[NoahsMommy]

I know this is cliche, but I hate to think that I ever evolved from some gross monkey/ape.....

If we evolved from apes, how come we still have apes?

I know its a total cliche....but I just really don't like monkeys, they creep me out. :)

BTW, I love the telemarketer ideas! You can also put THEM on hold until the operator breaks in with that recording. With you not hanging up, they can't call out on that line!! :)

Just tell them to hold....and go eat dinner. :D

[mugsy]

We did not evolve from apes. We are on the same evolutionary line as apes. NOT monkeys. That's why we still have apes. And if you look at the Bible and the geologic time scale there are direct links...just lots bigger time differences.

As far as teaching both creationism and evolution in public schools, it isn't going to happen. We have a thing called separation of church and state in this country so we don't teach creationism. I'm very glad of that too since I don't believe it and would have a hard time being objective.

And, I'm going to use some of those lines on solicitors from now on. My frustration is that our solictors hang up when you run to the phone to get it. God I HATE that!! I'm to the point now that when "unavailble" with no number shows up on caller id I just don't answer it. Gotta love that caller id!!

[kohala]

Originally posted by mugsy
We did not evolve from apes. We are on the same evolutionary line as apes. NOT monkeys. That's why we still have apes. And if you look at the Bible and the geologic time scale there are direct links...just lots bigger time differences.

As far as teaching both creationism and evolution in public schools, it isn't going to happen. We have a thing called separation of church and state in this country so we don't teach creationism. I'm very glad of that too since I don't believe it and would have a hard time being objective.

And, I'm going to use some of those lines on solicitors from now on. My frustration is that our solictors hang up when you run to the phone to get it. God I HATE that!! I'm to the point now that when "unavailble" with no number shows up on caller id I just don't answer it. Gotta love that caller id!!

I just had a marvelous oportunity to "try a line" on a telemarketer. We DO use our caller ID, and it is getting tiresome to have sooo many "Unknown Number" IDs show up, that I decided to answer this one. Having terminally ill family members and not appreciating the interuptions when yhou're waiting for the doctor works, too. BTW, that's actually a fact, as Dadcat's dad is aging and failing and has been moved up to Northern Cal. Every time that phone rings, we jump a little, and the "Unknown Numbers" are a royal pain in the A**!!!

[mugsy]

Oh Ko,

I'm sorry to hear about Dadcat's dad. I'll add him to my list!! I'll bet it's tough being that far away from him. :(

[kohala]

Originally posted by mugsy
Oh Ko,

I'm sorry to hear about Dadcat's dad. I'll add him to my list!! I'll bet it's tough being that far away from him. :(

Thanks, Mugs - you really do "walk it"!!!!:)
After staying here 15 years to be near them against his preferences, it's been hard on him to have Pop suddenly whisked away by older siblings that weren't around much. (His mom passed two years ago.) His siblings aren't being the most gracious, either. Sigh.
My best friend went through four years of hell with her sisters and brother when her mom died, and used to always tell me, be glad you're an only child. I hate to say it but families aren't always all that us only kids idealize them to be.

[zippy-kat]

Originally posted by Slave of 15 Dogs
Ok...Why is it important for members of LDS trace their genealogy?

AmberLee is a big genealogy fan -- you might ask her this question if Amy (Wolf_Q) doesn't know!

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by mugsy
We did not evolve from apes. We are on the same evolutionary line as apes. NOT monkeys. That's why we still have apes. And if you look at the Bible and the geologic time scale there are direct links...just lots bigger time differences.

As far as teaching both creationism and evolution in public schools, it isn't going to happen. We have a thing called separation of church and state in this country so we don't teach creationism. I'm very glad of that too since I don't believe it and would have a hard time being objective.

Oh, I was just kidding about the whole monkey/ape thing...I hear it so much these days. The whole thought, true or not....doesn't appeal to me at all. Ick.

I've always gone to a public school and in a 9th grade History class, learned about Evolution vs. Creationism...it was in our books, in the first chapter I think. It was very basic, it told of the difference, similarities and other beliefs. It allowed you to not be offended either way.

[NoahsMommy]

While we are on the subject of evolution....I've wanted to ask this forever....

I have a "Christian Fish" on my car. It prefesses my faith. I've always wondered what the reason was for the "Darwin Fish" on cars...any ideas?

I know the answer may be as easy as "it is what they believe". But as a religious person, God is my passion, my life. That is what it represents to me. "I want to shout it from the Mtn. tops!" :)

Now....what is the reasoning for the "Darwin Fish"?

[Uabassoon]

If we all evolved, why isn't anything evolving now? It doesn't make sense.

Animals are still evolving, they just don't evolve quickly so we can't see it on a day to day basis. We may not even be able to see a species evolve in our life time. For example the finches on the galapagos island are a great example of evolution. Their beaks have evolved in order to fit their environment and help them to survive. If a finch is born with a longer beak which enables it to find more food then it will survive and carry on it's genes to future generation in which the whole species living on that island to evolve to have longer beaks. If you need clarification on that you can look up finches on the galapogos island, there's lots of information on that. Now while I do belive in evolution that DOES NOT mean that I don't belive in creationism. I think both can go hand in hand. So many people think that you have to belive one or the other, but I think both are correct. I do belive that God made earth and all of it's creatures. But I also belive that these creatures were able to evolve over time. I belive that God made great creatures and that he does have control over these creatures, but who's to say he didn't want these animals to evolve and to change. And humans to an extent are still evolving, it could be partially to medical purposes. But people are taller now then they were 100 years ago, that could be considered evolution.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Yeah Uabossoon... I agree with you but I consider that adaptation... which is evolution.. but there is no way humans or the Earth evolved from the big bang... which is what I am referring to... check out that website www.creationevidence.org it is really neat and I learned a lot from it.

[Twisterdog]

My sister has a Darwin fish on her car. She does because she believes in evolution, and does not believe in creationism. The Darwin fish is a tongue-in-cheek slam on Christian creationists. It's really meant to be humorous, in a mean sort of way, I suppose. It's meant to show how ludicrous evolutionists feel creationism is.

Personally, I think evolution is really hard to argue with, logically. The facts, theory, evidence ... whatever you want to call it ... it pretty much right there, in your face, every time you look at a living creature, including man. If humans today were exactly the same, phyiscally, mentally and emotionally, as they always have been since their appearance on this planet, we would still be living in caves, hunting with arrowheads and dying before the age of 30. Of course we have evolved.

However ..... having said that, let me now say, that I DO believe in God (or some higher power, whatever you choose to call him/her) and I do believe the world was created by divine power. Hyprocracy? Nope, I don't think so. I believe that God created the world, and the method in which he chose to create it was evolution. Maybe God did create the world in six days ... but I believe it was six of God's days, not man's days. One of God's days might equal ten million of our years.

[mugsy]

OH YEAH!!! Someone else who believes what I believe!!! Twisterdog...I owe you!

I believe that God created the Big Bang and created the correct circumstances for that lightning bolt to hit the ocean just right to create the first protein from which all else on the Earth descended. I think he guided it the way that he saw fit. I think he creates the mutations needed to keep a species going or perhaps the mutation to cause a new species over time. Like the squirrels at the Grand Canyon. I also do not believe that God's "day" was a 24 hour day. Who knows how long it was. There is evidence that the length of the day has varied over the course of time also.

I WANT A DARWIN FISH!! Mike and I have been looking for them here in Fort Wayne and can't find them. I want it only to show that I am an evolutionist.

[Karen]

Originally posted by zippy-kat


AmberLee is a big genealogy fan -- you might ask her this question if Amy (Wolf_Q) doesn't know!

Actually, I have been told it's so they can pray for the Salvation of their ancestors. So you have to know who they are to save them! (Mom's cousin is a Mormon, but the whole of that side of my family is very big on history/geneology.

[Cincy'sMom]

Originally posted by mugsy
OH YEAH!!! Someone else who believes what I believe!!! Twisterdog...I owe you!

I believe that God created the Big Bang and created the correct circumstances for that lightning bolt to hit the ocean just right to create the first protein from which all else on the Earth descended. I think he guided it the way that he saw fit. I think he creates the mutations needed to keep a species going or perhaps the mutation to cause a new species over time. Like the squirrels at the Grand Canyon. I also do not believe that God's "day" was a 24 hour day. Who knows how long it was. There is evidence that the length of the day has varied over the course of time also.



I've tried to suggest this idea to people before...both strong creationists and strong evolutionists...it was never very well received. Why can't it be a combination? Why couldn't things have been set in motion by God and then evolve over time? Maybe it is just what I want to believe becuase I am Christian and a scientist :)

And as for the the day thing, when I tried to pose that suggestion, I was told that since Sun and Moon had been created it had to be a 24 hr peroid. I didn't really follow that theory, but, hey, to each his own I guess.

[Uabassoon]

Maybe God did create the world in six days ... but I believe it was six of God's days, not man's days. One of God's days might equal ten million of our years.

Twisterdog you have someone else here who agrees with you. That's exactly what I think, I've also tried to bring that up to people but they look at me like I'm not making any sense.

[mugsy]

It's so nice to know I'm not alone!

Thanks Karen!! I appreciate the info.

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Twisterdog
My sister has a Darwin fish on her car. She does because she believes in evolution, and does not believe in creationism. The Darwin fish is a tongue-in-cheek slam on Christian creationists. It's really meant to be humorous, in a mean sort of way, I suppose. It's meant to show how ludicrous evolutionists feel creationism is.
That is kind of what I thought....I knew it was meant to be against Christianity. Interesting...

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
Yeah Uabossoon... I agree with you but I consider that adaptation... which is evolution.. but there is no way humans or the Earth evolved from the big bang... which is what I am referring to... check out that website www.creationevidence.org it is really neat and I learned a lot from it.
Did anyone else check out this site besides me??

[kohala]

There are many Christian teachings that have not been released by Churches, for reasons of control maybe, or maybe because we humans as a species are too limited in our ability to grasp the abstract. Much of the Bible was written to the audience of the day, addressing Creation in terms that people could understand. Somewhere between traditional Creationism, the observations of Darwin, and a whole lot of other stuff :D lies the truth. I can't help but feel that God isn't half way about to let us know too much, considering what we do with what we DO learn!!!
So leave each other alone, and learn to practice what your Good Book, whichever it is, teaches. Imagine if we could all do that; but what too often happens is people desiring power will use our fears against us in the name of God, and we all too blindly let ourselves get led down paths I doubt God approves of.

The Truth Is Out There ;)

[kohala]

Originally posted by NoahsMommy

Did anyone else check out this site besides me??

I'll read it more in depth when I can - it looks interesting. I noticed Dr. Baugh discusses the bible's codes. That has always interested me, every since I read Carlos Suares "The Cipher of Genesis".

[COCatMama]

I LOVE darwin fish!! I want one sooooo bad for my car that I went to a darwin fish website and printed out a pic of one and taped it to the inside of the back window :D

[All Creatures Great And Small]

This has been a VERY interesting thread to read, and I am so pleased to see that it stayed civil and tolerant. I don't belong to any particular religion, but I was raised in a vaguely Christian home (non-practicing). I just try to "be good" as much as possible, which is about 90% of the time (LOL). I do know that my daughter lost her best friend of many years because of ONE WORD that I used in front of her which her extremely Catholic parents found offensive. (All I will say is that it is 12 letters long and starts with M, and it is NOT a curse word.) She is now forbidden to be around my daughter, who had nothing to do with this anyway, because I am a "heathen" or something. They seem to have forgotten the 6 years that their daughter spent in my home every other weekend, where she was treated like a member of the family, and any other kindnesses we had done in the past. This is the thing that drives me crazy about organized religion, that it seems to drive people apart as much as it brings them together. So many wars have started because of conflict of beliefs (Ireland, the Middle East, etc.). I have not read the Bible thoroughly, nor the Quran, but I don't think there are instructions in either book that you should blow up people who don't agree with your faith. I guess some people just take the teachings to extremes. (If you're curious what the word was, you can PM me ;) )

[All Creatures Great And Small]

Originally posted by NoahsMommy
Anyway, they had the wise men, Mary and Joseph all turned in wierd positions. Like, Mary was leaning over two sheep. Joseph was facing away from everyone. I think the closest thing to baby Jesus was a camel. It was truely funny. :D You know, I think this is a large part of why the friend's parents don't like me - I have a VERY irreverent sense of humor, and stuff like this would make me laugh. I guess that would be interpreted as disrespect for their religion, but it's not; it's just disrespect for some little plastic figures. On a side note, we have a little Christmas decoration that is the word NOEL, with each letter being the car of a "train". A long time ago when we were first married, I rearranged the cars to spell
"LEON" with it instead, just to see how long it would take my husband to notice (he's notoriously unobservant). Well, it took him 2 weeks the first time......now it's an annual Christmas tradition to put up "LEON", and see if any guests notice - ;) :D

[Soledad]

Evolution is a scientific theory, and even if it is questionable or not universally agreed upon, it has a right to be taught in public schools. Christians do not have the right to ban the teaching of evolution for creationism as that would be totally against the principles of this country. We are a secular nation, which does not mean that we cannot all celebrate our religions and beliefs, but it does mean that no one religion has a right to decide what our children will or will not learn. If creationism wants to be taught in public school, that is fine so long as it is taught along side all sorts of other creation beliefs from other cultures.

[Ann]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
Actually evolution has never been proven ... that is why it is called the evolution theory... and Education is a choice.. but like Christianity is a religion .... I believe evolutionist are in a religion too. They have a lot of faith to believe in evolution.. because no one has ever seen evolution.

Education is a choice? That's not true. Kids have to go to school from 1-9 grade here in Sweden and I know it's the same in the USA and most other "civilized" countries.

Evolution has never been proven? I belive it has. Look at the equines for example, or any other animal species. There's clear proof of evolution so I really don't know why a lot of religious people say it's just a "theory".


Originally posted by popcornbird
Evolution is a theory not a fact and proven. I believe that their is a zillion times more proof of God than there is of evolution. Who proved it? Some "guy" called Mr. Darwin. :rolleyes: So if you can believe in a normal guy called Darwin, why not believe in the Prophets sent by God, with God's message? God sent the same message to all His prophets. Its not like we never heard from God. God has sent us His message and the guidelines of life through all His prophets, from Adam, to Noah, to David, to Abraham, to Moses, to Jesus, and finally to Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon them all. They were much more respected and pious people than Darwin and his theory.

Like I said above, I belive evolution has been proven.

I think it was pretty uncalled for making fun of Darwin like that, I would never go around calling Muhammed some war-crazy "guy" that wasn't pious! We are showing respect towards your beliefs, why do you have to ridicule ours? Besides, there is obviously plenty of proof that Darwin existed but what solid proof is there that Adam, Noah and so on existed?


Originally posted by popcornbird
There is proof of God all around us, proof that we see every second in our lives. Denying the proofs is something different, but the evidence is there, clear evidence. I, however, have never seen any "signs" of evolution with my own eyes. If we all evolved, why isn't anything evolving now? It doesn't make sense.

I think Uabassoon answered that evolution comment very well, so I won't repeat it.

One thing that I've always been awed at when it comes to Islam, is how their holy book never has been modified in the original language. When it comes to the Christian Bible, it's been modified so many times that you can never know what's original and what's not. That's always fascinated me with the Quaran though...

[COCatMama]

oops posted it twice

[COCatMama]

Popcornbird: Darwin was a scientist, he dealt with SCIENCE not some hocus pocus mumbo jumbo! And you show me proof of your God, and I'll show you some dinosaur fossils, in fact I HAVE A FOSSIL of a fern. You didn't see me going into your "Eid" thread and saying exactly what I *really* think of your religion, did you? HOW DARE you attack a person that ACTUALLY lived and are you going to deny the existence of GRAVITY??!?! I think you have ALOT of growing up to do and you have to learn NOT TO attack other people merely because you feel threatened by their beliefs. And for the record I never DENIED ANY PROOF of any God because THERE IS NO PROOF! Religion is about FAITH and not FACT. I utterly lack ANY faith in Religion *alot of that is because of people that act like you* and it would be total HYPOCRISY for me to belong to a religion since I do not "believe" :rolleyes:
GRRRRRRR fundamentalists put the "fun" back in mental.

And never, in a million years, would I have ANYTHING to do with the Islamic faith - for personal reasons. That means I will not read any religious links you provide.

[Tanya&Fritz]

Originally posted by Lalania

And never, in a million years, would I have ANYTHING to do with the Islamic faith - for personal reasons.

I totally agree.

This is probably going to cause a lot of fuss but here is my view on religion. I'm not talking about christians in general but the "holly rollers".

Some people take drugs, some drink, some use religion as a crutch.

I live a good life with good morals. But I don't need a crutch like religion to get me through. If something good happens to me it's just being in the right place at the right time, not because I prayed.

[Tanya&Fritz]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
my two cents..

I too agree with how Noah's mommy put it...... when you find something wonderful that changes your life you have to tell somebody.

I honestly don't understand why athiest are offended when a christian tries to witness to them... I mean I do if they are rude or too persistant.... I mean ... I believe in Heaven and Hell and my beliefs are if you are not a christian... (having asked Christ into your heart)... and TRY to live a moral life you have eternal consiquences... now .... I know God is real... when I got saved and really got on fire for God he started revealing himself to me.. and no one in the world could ever convince me that he was not real because of what I have witnessed... Now it is so wonderful how he has changed my life and how could I not tell anyone?..... Some people think when you get saved you have to life like a nun... and that is not how it is... God helps you change your life you don't have to drop everything cold turkey.. he helps you.... but you have to ask for his help.


This is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

[wolf_Q]

Sorry, I'd really rather not answer any questions about the LDS faith...as well....I have this feeling I'd screw up my answer.......lol I was always the one in the back of Seminary class pretending I did not hear my name being called. I don't want anyone to be judging the religion by what some stupid person (me) answers.

As for Evolution/Religion, I agree with what was said earlier. Twisterdog said it perfect. That's what I've always believed too! I think that the earth/life was created by evolution....and God created it...but God's days are not the same as our days....you can't take everything literally.

I don't think you need a religion to have morals. I'm really not a very "churchy" person...but I have morals....I was raised to have them. I'm GLAD that I do. I'm glad I'm not drinking/smoking/drugs etc. I wouldn't do that, not for anyone else, but for myself. I'm saving myself for marriage too...and I'm not ashamed to admit that.

Oh....that kind of came out wrong....I'm not trying to imply that people who drink/smoke are bad people.....there's a *complete* difference between someone who occasionally has an alcoholic drink to someone who is constantly drunk...

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
my two cents..

I too agree with how Noah's mommy put it...... when you find something wonderful that changes your life you have to tell somebody.

I honestly don't understand why athiest are offended when a christian tries to witness to them... I mean I do if they are rude or too persistant.... I mean ... I believe in Heaven and Hell and my beliefs are if you are not a christian... (having asked Christ into your heart)... and TRY to live a moral life you have eternal consiquences... now .... I know God is real... when I got saved and really got on fire for God he started revealing himself to me.. and no one in the world could ever convince me that he was not real because of what I have witnessed... Now it is so wonderful how he has changed my life and how could I not tell anyone?..... Some people think when you get saved you have to life like a nun... and that is not how it is... God helps you change your life you don't have to drop everything cold turkey.. he helps you.... but you have to ask for his help.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

**************************************

I was not trying to give any personal examples but maybe they will help.
YES some christians are total hiprocrits!! But you shouldn't judge a whole religion by those people. One thing you have to understand is that we are human and will fall short and sin.. but some people act any way they want to and believe they are saved which IS NOT TRUE!!
My story is I drank and smoked and partied when I first got saved .. .. it took me about two months to quit doing all of that stuff which is what I meant by "Some people think when you get saved you have to life like a nun... and that is not how it is... God helps you change your life you don't have to drop everything cold turkey.. he helps you.... but you have to ask for his help. " I had to pray and ask God to help me... after smoking for 7 years I couldn't just up and quit and live like a nun.... all of my friends partied and it took me a while to understand that I couldn't be around people who drank and partied because it tempted me. Now that I have been saved for almost a year now... I don't drink, smoke, cuss, and he has helped me with my anger too. I am a total different person...

What I meant in the thread you quoted me from IS NOT that you can be a christian and do whatever... but God allows you time to help you change. But once you are saved you are heald accountable for what you know is right and wrong and you learn that from reading the Bible and you most definatelly are expected to live right and not judge people. Some christians just don't get it., and give false impressions. Don't let luke warm christians confuse you.... there are some really dedicated ones like me and a lot others.... I know I am not perfect but when I do something wrong I repent right away! You totally misunderstood me when you quoted me.:)

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

originally posted by Ann
Evolution has never been proven? I belive it has. Look at the equines for example, or any other animal species. There's clear proof of evolution so I really don't know why a lot of religious people say it's just a "theory".

I believe species evolve to adapt to their enviornment and living conditions...(just like how humans don't hunt with spears etc. anymore)... but it has not been proven that every species evolved from a single cell... Even the skulls and other bones that they found dating way back have no DNA match.... and the website I posted earler... scientist have disproven that humans could not have evolved from a single cell.

[Tanya&Fritz]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My story is I drank and smoked and partied when I first got saved .. ..


No, no, I didn't misunderstand you when I quoted you.

Have you ever noticed that most addicts of any kind turn to religion? Like I said, religion IS a crutch. You are replacing one thing with another.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

No you did misunderstand me... I grew up in church. As a teenager I made friends with the wrong crowd and they introduced me to drugs... Then one night I was laying in bed and God spoke to me and told me that I knew what I was doing was wrong and that I needed to stop and start walking up right... so I started praying that He would help me and two months later I did... with His help. I did not turn to religion for help ... God came in my bad situation and helped me out of it.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Yeah some people do use religion for a crutch... but if it gets them off of drugs and helping them live a better life then I think that is good for them.

[Tanya&Fritz]

Congratulations for turning your life around.

You think God helped you and I think you helped yourself.

Either way, congratulations, drugs are a scary thing :(

[Tanya&Fritz]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
Yeah some people do use religion for a crutch... but if it gets them off of drugs and helping them live a better life then I think that is good for them.

EXACTLY :D

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Thanks... I hope I didn't sound offensive in anything I said.... If I did ... I'm sorry.:)

[Tanya&Fritz]

Not at all :D

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Ann
When it comes to the Christian Bible, it's been modified so many times that you can never know what's original and what's not.
I'm SURE that this will sound like I'm just defending my faith...but who really cares...

If you would take about an hour of your life (if you truly care) and get a few translations of the holy bible and a dictionary out. Select a passage and read it in each translation of the holy bible. You WILL find the only difference is word choice. For example:
New International Version of John 3:16:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
New American Standard Bible of John 3:16:
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "
New King James Version of John 3:16:
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Wycliffe New Testiment version of John 3:16:
"For God loved so the world [Forsooth God so loved the world], that he gave his one begotten Son, that each man that believeth in him perish not, but have everlasting life."
English Standard Version of John 3:16:
"For God so loved the world,[1] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
New Living Translation of John 3:16:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. "

Do you see what I mean? The differences are just like you and I...we chose words differently....but the SAME information gets accross. These bibles are translated not by some common, High School educated person....but by scholars who spend thier ENTIRE lives doing this.

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Tanya&Fritz
But I don't need a crutch like religion to get me through.
I'm not sure I totally understand what you mean. Can you explain?

I know what using something for a crutch means, but I find it hard to use something one cannot see or touch as something like this. Drugs, alcohol, sex, money, yes...but faith...not really.

[NoahsMommy]

YES some christians are total hiprocrits!! But you shouldn't judge a whole religion by those people.
Judging people because of their religion, is called discrimination. I doubt if anyone would discriminate against you for NOT believing in God, Jesus, Allah, etc.

Everyone here is so upset about how horrible it is to be witnessed to. Try being a religous person. It takes a lot of strength to continually know what you are suposed to be doing and DO it! To constantly know that God wants you to live up to His plans, His standards and be happy with it. We are lucky, we are given a peace about that, but we are still human.

That doesn't even compare though to the responses we get from others..."we are weak, can't deal with life without a God", "Goody-goody", "churchy", "we must live like nuns/monks", "don't know/what to have a good time". Guess what? Religous people are just the same as you! We pay bills, have kids, pets, work, volunteer, eat, drink (yes, even alcohol), have thoughts, emotions, feeling of our own..... This isn't directed at anyone in particular...I'm just sharing.

[Tanya&Fritz]

Originally posted by NoahsMommy

It takes a lot of strength to continually know what you are suposed to be doing and DO it! To constantly know that God wants you to live up to His plans, His standards and be happy with it.

What is it exactly that you feel you have to do?

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Tanya&Fritz
What is it exactly that you feel you have to do?
Well...there are a lot of personal goals that I have that God has for me as well. I am going to school to get my PhD in Psychology, with a minor in religion. I will be working in a hospital setting with terminally ill children...my job will entail dealing with parents and children on the verge of a horrible event. It will be my job to counsel and offer "religious" support and advice if needed/desired.

That is just one of the commitments I feel/know God wants me to follow through on. There are many more.

This may be something that a non-religious person cannot understand. It is really hard to explain this feeling. It isn't GUILT...so no need to go there.

Another example is when I got my tattoo. I was 19 and KNEW God did NOT want me to get it. But, I did it anyway. It wasn't my parents, friends, society telling me no, it was God. I know that...again, something you'll just have to take my word for and not resort to thinking I'm just a religious wacko.

Many will say that who I think "God" is, really is my conscious. But I know that to be untrue...I am human and what I WANT to do and what God wants me to do...are generally completely different things. Again, this surly sounds like a bunch of religious crazy talk...hearing God and all that. But you wont know if you've never been in the situation...thus, there is no room for judgment on your part.

Again, "you", is addressed to anyone on this planet, not anyone specifically here.

The reason I can say all these things and anticipate your response is because I've only been a true Christian (ie: Not born into a Christian family. Some religions believe that if you are born into a family that is say, Buddhist (just an example), they believe that that child is automatically Buddhist because of their birth into the family.) for about five years. I did the same questioning you all are…asking the SAME questions. I know where you are coming from.

Anyway, hope that answered your question. :)

[NoahsMommy]

I guess a more simplified way of putting what I just wrote would be to obey the 10 Commandments...

Honor thy monther and father is especially hard...is means more than just being nice. It means forgiveness for anything. (other than sexual abuse)

I think this may better explain what you asked.

[Tanya&Fritz]

Fair enough :D

What made you become a "true" Christian 5 years ago? Just curious...

[Dixieland Dancer]

“Where does life come from?” There are essentially only two answers: Life and its diversity were designed by an intelligence for a purpose or it simply “occurs” by natural law and chance and not by design.

The religious and non-religious implications of either response are obvious. A design inference supports and leads to theistic religions. The naturalistic conclusion is antagonistic to theistic religion and leads to non-theistic belief systems, laws, morals and ethics that sharply conflict with those derived from the major religions of the world.

I believe the scientific evidence of design is abundant and convincing. I believe that Evolution is just a theory and has never been proven fact or the scientist of todays time would not be split in their beliefs. Biochemists can’t avoid using design terminology when they encounter the purpose, function and apparent meaning that pervades living systems. Intention and purpose, which can only be generated by intelligence, is implicitly recognized in the language used by science: the genetic “code;” the “blue print” of life; “messenger” RNA; etc.

Why are public school systems afraid of the debate between evolution and creationism? Most students opinions are declared invalid if design is suggested with out any objective evaluation of the evidence. Prohibiting debate effectively provides the naturalistic hypothesis with a monopoly on the scientific explanation of origins. Instead of promoting an objective search for the truth, teaching only naturalism abandons it.

I believe public school indoctrination of students in naturalism offends the First Amendment of our Constitution. Censorship of the evidence of design violates the requirements of the establishment clause that government remain “neutral” when it enters a religious arena. Censorship also violates the
rights of teachers, students and parents to have public education conducted without discrimination against viewpoints relevant to the subject matter being taught. For those of you reading this that are not in the USA, I do not pretend to know how this effects your rights as I only know about the rights given to me by my government.

Objectivity would allow students to be shown the scientific evidence that supports both viewpoints. This would permit students to reach informed conclusions about the best scientific explanation of where they come from. It would improve the quality and credibility of origins science; and permit schools to teach rather than to indoctrinate, consistent with their constitutional obligation to remain neutral about a subject that has such significant conflicting religious implications. By refusing to teach both sides of the story, I feel that I am essentially being witnessed to in a way that infringes on my life too.

I do not think that I use my faith as a "crutch" in life. I am not a weak minded individual who needs religion to tell me how to live. My faith actually is an enhancement to my life. I have felt the moving of the spirit in my life and know for certain that in my life he is very much real. I can look at a beautiful sunset and believe that my creator designed it to be beautiful for me to look at because he loves me instead of just thinking it happened and was just an occurance that happened. I can look at the storms of life and see how they make my life richer in the long run. I believe the same with my relationships with people. I can believe that they do things for me to make my life sweeter and full of more meaning or I can think it is chance that someone went out of their way for me. I choose to believe they designed to go out of their way for me to show how much they care for me. Basically for me it is easier to believe in design rather than chance.

One final point.... I designed the words on this page to reflect my feelings and beliefs. I did not just pick out random letters and expect them to fall into the words I wanted. No matter how many times I take all these letters and scramble them up, they will never fall into this exact pattern unless I design them again. To test this theory scientifically do a simple test.... rip up a whole piece of paper and throw it up in the air. Does it ever fall into a perfect piece of paper again? If I tape the pieces back together again they are still not perfect but in more of the original design than when I just toss them in the air!

It is nice that this topic can be discussed without fighting among the troops! :D

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Tanya&Fritz
Fair enough :D

What made you become a "true" Christian 5 years ago? Just curious...
Let me start by saying I was taught when I was young about God and Jesus. I believed in both God and Jesus growing up. I never went to church after my parents were divorced.

When I met my hubby and his parents I was extremely conflicted. They were the most genuine, compassionate.....and religious people that I've ever met. I really liked them and felt so peaceful around them. Their home was a haven for me, a place I spent almost every weekend (not overnight) for about three years. I longed for the state of mind they all had. Calm, understanding and so completely non-judgmental....something very foreign in my family.

After about six months of knowing them, I decided that I wanted what they had. I decided to go to church with David (my hubby) and see what this was all about. I struggled for about a year before I actually understood it all. (not all, the basics) It was a really hard time for me, like I said, I really questioned everything.

The rest is history...my hubby and I have been married for a year and a half. We got married in a church and had a very emotional ceremony.

I got baptized about a year ago....I was never baptized as a child and I wanted my family and friends to be there for me to profess my faith. That is another "Christian thing"...the churches I have attended believe in doing this when you are an adult...as a profession of faith, not so you wont go to hell. Water means nothing when you are talking about heaven or hell.

[Soledad]

Dixieland -

I believe the theory of "design" died a LONG time ago. It is a 17th or 18th century theory that has been proven wrong time and time again.

If you are speaking of creationism, I would have to say that that is a religious based belief that should not be taught in science classes, but in cultural studies along side other religions' creation theories. Why is creationism NOT science? Because science takes pieces and tries to put them together, and hopefull yield an answer. Creationism starts with an answer and finds pieces that fit into that story. It does not adapt with new evidence. Evolution has and will continue to as we learn more.

It is not a science, and does not belong in science curriculums. Sure, put it in a philosophy course or a cultural studies course for high schoolers.

Sara luvs her Tinky -

I don't know how many times I've heard the "I used to drink and do drugs and now I have Christ" tale. I'm well aware that Christians are not all do-gooders, in fact, I'm more inclined to think that they have far more sordid pasts than my own from some of the stories I've been told while being "witnessed" to. The thing is, I've never had a problem leading a moral life, and so I've never needed Christ to enter in and help me sort things out.

Also, as for this information you are providing from a scientist who fell off the evolution bandwagon and onto the creationism one: do you know how many times the opposite has happened? The reason why it is of interest that someone would go from evolution to creationism is because that is not the norm. It happens so often in the opposite direction that it's not even news. Besides, I have a lot of cynicism towards these newly found creationist as they can often get way more name recognition being a creationist (as it is less populated) than as an evolutionist. Good career move.

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Soledad
IThe thing is, I've never had a problem leading a moral life, and so I've never needed Christ to enter in and help me sort things out.
So you are saying religion is for people who've messed up in the past?

I haven't messed up in the way you are talking about...and Sara most likely was young and experimenting, not being a bad/immoral person.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by Soledad
Dixieland -

I believe the theory of "design" died a LONG time ago. It is a 17th or 18th century theory that has been proven wrong time and time again.



My creator is intelligent and designed the entire universe so Intelligent design = Creationism and I personally do not think it is dead. More and more scientists are turning to intelligent design because there are so many holes in Darwins evolutionary theory that are popping up. In the past most Darwinian scientists did not have the knowledge of the complexity of the cell but more and more the knowledge is coming out just how complex it really is. Take DNA and the genetic code being found. Take one cell stucture out of place and you have a different genetic code entirely. Our DNA makeup is so closely resembled to other species yet uniquely different. This is not chance. It is design. And I believe when a scientist discovers the revelation that the cell is more likely designed it is not a career enhancement opportunity. If anything it is probably a career downgrade since those who believe in intelligent design seem to have to convince people harder about their point of view than the Darwinist do.

On this subject I believe we can agree to disagree. Someday we will all find out if there really is a creator or not. In the mean time we can hug our furry friends and loved ones and take life with or without faith. As for me and my house... we choose faith!

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer
On this subject I believe we can agree to disagree. Someday we will all find out if there really is a creator or not. In the mean time we can hug our furry friends and loved ones and take life with or without faith. As for me and my house... we choose faith!
Amen to that! Very well said. :)

[Soledad]

Noahs Mommy -

I'm saying that religion has a profound grip on people with troubled pasts who feel they need to redeem themselves, etc.

I've had MANY people witness to me and what I find most extraordinary is how many of them were alcoholics, abusers, sex workers, inmates, etc. Hey, if religion sets them straight, I'm all for it.

However, I don't have that need. Sure, that's not the only void religion fills for people, but there are many who return to religion after they've hit rock bottom or led a life they feel remorse about.

People come to religion for different reasons. I could really care less why they do it. Great, fine, you found something that works for you...guess what? So did I! And without God. Wow, what a concept.

[NoahsMommy]

Religion has nothing to do with remorse, non-believers really should get that straight.

I have no remorse whatsoever....and I'm a Christian...not everyone was saved from a bad situation...most weren't.

[Soledad]

Sorry, but in some people's cases it does. Why is that a problem or offensive? I thought it was nice that they thought that they could make peace with their past?

Also, as a once very devout person, I don't need to be "taught" by "believers", I've been on that team before.

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Soledad
Sorry, but in some people's cases it does. Why is that a problem or offensive? I thought it was nice that they thought that they could make peace with their past?

Also, as a once very devout person, I don't need to be "taught" by "believers", I've been on that team before.
It isn't offensive, at least not to me. I was making a point that not most everyone were saved from a horrible past. That is not was religion is for. That's my point.

I'm not exactly teaching...at least I hope I'm not. I'm just discussing this, just like you are.

[Soledad]

I don't think I ever stated that everyone who has religion has a sordid past. So, I didn't see the need to contest my statement.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

originally posted by soledad
I don't know how many times I've heard the "I used to drink and do drugs and now I have Christ" tale. I'm well aware that Christians are not all do-gooders, in fact, I'm more inclined to think that they have far more sordid pasts than my own from some of the stories I've been told while being "witnessed" to. The thing is, I've never had a problem leading a moral life, and so I've never needed Christ to enter in and help me sort things out.

I wasn't trying to give my testimony or anything.... all that just stemmed from me and Tanya & Fritz. I was just trying to say that some christians have the wrong idea that they can do whatever they want and still be saved... which is wrong... and I thought by saying what I said *Some people think when you get saved you have to life like a nun... and that is not how it is... God helps you change your life you don't have to drop everything cold turkey.. he helps you.... but you have to ask for his help. * I thought I gave the wrong impression that I was that way...
There are a lot of great people with wonderful morals who do not believe... and that is great. I am not saying I have to have Christ to live a good life but it sure does make things easier!!:)
And I think why a lot of people who witness and seem to have a sordid past is because we are all human and ALL of us fall short and do things that we shouldn't .... these people just make their story public in hopes to give hope to others who are in the same situation..... which a lot of people may be... we can ignore it all we want but society STINKS and Christ is helping a lot of people who will receive Him.

[Ann]

Originally posted by popcornbird
As for proof that the prophets existed, besides what God has told us of all the prophets in all the books (the prophet stories are basically the same in the Torah, Bible, and Quran) this information has been passed from generation to generation, starting from people who knew, were realted to, or were companions to the prophets. The same stories come from numerous sources. When something comes from so many sources, it cannot be denied because we are getting the same stories from different places that have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Oh really? What about fairytales? Let's take Snow White for example. That tale has been passed down during the centuries, from people in all countries. So, by the way you think that means that there once was a girl named Snow White who lived with seven midgets and had an evil stepmother with a magical mirror. Catch my drift here?




As for everything else that has been said here, I really don't feel like responding. I personally feel like people are pushing their beliefs on me with all their 100% positive talk about how God did this and that and it's just getting the better of me: If I keep responding I know I will sink to their level and that's nothing I wish to do.

[Ann]

Another thing that makes me upset and another reason why I am trying not to read this thread anymore is the fact that I know nothing will change: Pet Talk will still be a "Christian place". Know what I mean? For example, take Sara luvs her Tinky's signature. If I were to put, let's say, a Satanic religious symbol there, that would not be tolerated; neither from the members or from Karen. It would be deemed offensive or whatever. But yet, Christian symbols will always be alright and nice and signify a "moral and good" person.

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Ann
Another thing that makes me upset and another reason why I am trying not to read this thread anymore is the fact that I know nothing will change: Pet Talk will still be a "Christian place". Know what I mean? For example, take Sara luvs her Tinky's signature. If I were to put, let's say, a Satanic religious symbol there, that would not be tolerated; neither from the members or from Karen. It would be deemed offensive or whatever. But yet, Christian symbols will always be alright and nice and signify a "moral and good" person.
There are two people that have symbols of their faith...Sara has a Christian Fish and Popcornbird has a EID symbol....One is Christian, the other is not. That's a pretty low percentage for you to be saying things like that.

I don't know why you feel that way, of all the posts on this thread, most are against Christianity....

[All Creatures Great And Small]

Well, Ann, you do have a point there. My pre-Xmas signature had a quote from the Bible, as well as a reference to Mohammed's love for cats. I don't think this board is a "Christian" pet board, because we have Popcornbird, as well as many others who have never professed their religion on the board and could be of any faith. We know that the Islam and Christian faiths teach love and respect for companion animals, which is probably why no one objects to those religious symbols in signatures on a pet board. If we knew more about Satanism, and how Satanists feel about pets, we would probably not have an objection to your choice of symbol either. It's when a symbol represents hatred and intolerance that people have an objection. Would you be willing to explain a little about Satanism, or were you just posing that question hypothetically? I think a lot of intolerance just stems from a lack of knowledge. And on that subject, I know a lot of people think that Islam right now represents hatred and evil, but Osama bin Laden is no more a representative of the entire Islam faith than David Koresh was of the entire Christian faith. There's going to be extremist "wing-nuts" in any faith and any country, and that should not be a reflection on every citizen of that country or every person of that faith.

[mugsy]

except that Islam says that dogs are dirty. :(

I don't think anyone is mad or has gotten mad in this thread. I think it's just been a matter of explanation for people's beliefs. I would certainly hope that none of the people on here would EVER press their beliefs on any other people on here.

With that being said....happy holidays to everyone regardless of your beliefs!!

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

[I]originally posted by Ann[/I}
Another thing that makes me upset and another reason why I am trying not to read this thread anymore is the fact that I know nothing will change: Pet Talk will still be a "Christian place". Know what I mean? For example, take Sara luvs her Tinky's signature. If I were to put, let's say, a Satanic religious symbol there, that would not be tolerated; neither from the members or from Karen. It would be deemed offensive or whatever. But yet, Christian symbols will always be alright and nice and signify a "moral and good" person.

Very well said ... All Creatures Great and Small.

I think we are all using this thread to ask questions and get better informed. I have a christian fish in my signature because I am proud of my faith / and popcornbird an Eid symbol because she is proud of hers.... I am sure if you were to put a darwin fish or whatever no one would care.... Satan would be a little creepy .... for me anyway because he is evil... but to each his own.

[All Creatures Great And Small]

Originally posted by mugsy
except that Islam says that dogs are dirty. :( Ah, I was not aware of that. Well, each faith / culture / country has different beliefs regarding which animals are considered edible, domesticated, kept as pets, etc. Perhaps way, way long ago, in the part of the world where Islam was born, the dogs were nothing like the wonderful companions we know them as now, so they were considered unclean. Maybe the "dog" was actually some other kind of wild, canine type animal, and through the years it came to be known as a "dog". Those who want to remain true to the faith have to follow the Quran, even if it does exclude dogs. I'd be interested to know if there are Muslims who like and own dogs, in spite of their faith. I know there are Christians who don't follow Jesus's teachings to the letter either, and they "make exceptions" sometimes. It's a shame that religions can't "evolve", to be more adaptive to a modern world. The books were written so long ago, when life was pretty basic and there was not as much general knowledge or sharing of cultures.

[Soledad]

ACGS -

I have had many Muslim friends. Three of them have owned dogs. You're right, just like many Christians do not adhere to the religion to the letter, so do other people of other religions.

Personally, I don't see why owning a cat or a bird is any cleaner than a dog, this day in age. Especially as cats poo and pee indoors and birds will crap/pee directly on you!
:mad:

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

originally posted by soledad
and birds will crap/pee directly on you! :mad:

:eek: I take it you had a bad experience with a bird once before?!?!?!?!?

[Soledad]

Birds are alright. I just don't consider them pets I could really get into like a dog or a cat.

I took care of a friend's cockatiel for a couple of weeks and it was just, boring. He kept crapping on me as well....
:rolleyes:


Oh, also, the leader of Pakistan has several dogs. So, I think it is something that strict Muslims abide by. From what I hear, Musharraf is a rather moderate Muslim.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

I have never known any birds....
This bird Nicodemus... was POTD a looooong time ago.. and I went to his website and he totally changed my mind about birds. I always thought they would be boring too ... but I bet this guy would be sooooo much fun to live with.... below is the link to his website....
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/8223/senegal.html

[Soledad]

Hmmm...I still don't know.

I had a friend who's mother had converted a portion of their house and their entire two car garage into a menagerie for their birds. I spent a lot of time there, and while I liked some of the birds, they're not an animal I can *connect* with. Everyone has their favourites.

Also, they sometimes creep me out with their eyes and their claws.

[Uabassoon]

I've never been a big fan of birds, but I do know that they can make great pets. I'm just scared of them, my dad had a redheaded amazon that didn't like anyone but him. The bird would snap everytime I got near the cage, as a little kid that really scared me. But when I worked at Petco I fell in love with an African Grey, He would sit on my shoulder while I was working the cash register. But so far the african grey is the only bird that I've ever wanted to take home.

[Soledad]

Popcornbird - I didn't mean to suggest that birds aren't likable, it's just that they're not pets *I* would get. I've taken care of plenty of different breeds for different amounts of time and I just don't get into them.

For me, there isn't that same connection. When I look at my cat and my dog back home I see another soul that's capable of understanding me at some sort of emotional level. I don't get that from birds, fish, reptiles and rodents. But that's just ME.

[Twisterdog]

Well, I missed a couple pages, I can see, in this thread.

But, basically, concerning type of pets or religion or anything else .... I think those are personal choices and one ought to have the right to think/feel/believe anything they want to, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I also think people should not have to defend their personal choices to other ... and conversely, they should not try to influence others to their way of thinking.

We are what we are ... a Moslem who like birds, a Christian who like cats, an atheist who like dogs, and agnostic who like hissing cockroaches, etc. .... who cares? The basics remain the same for all of us ... be polite, be nice, treat others well, be a good neighbor, a good citizen, a good friend.

We will all find out eventually who was "right" and who was "wrong" about religion. NO ONE on alive on earth is EVER going to have all the answers ... about the Bible, the Qu'uan (sp?), the Torah (sp?), about evolution, creation, etc. If we knew it all, WE would be God, yes?

I personally think God (probably not his/her/its real name) is laughing hysterically at EVERY religion, saying, "Man, what silly little humans ... they are ALL wrong." :)

[Soledad]

"I also think people should not have to defend their personal choices to other ... and conversely, they should not try to influence others to their way of thinking. "



Ah, but in a perfect world. Too bad it isn't that way and some religions see conversion as a fundamental part of their belief system.


"I personally think God (probably not his/her/its real name) is laughing hysterically at EVERY religion, saying, "Man, what silly little humans ... they are ALL wrong."

I think that as well. I think humans cannot have any concept of God because our minds are so puny. We can only get glimpses.

[zippy-kat]

Originally posted by popcornbird
You can do far more thing to a bird than you can to a rabbit.

With the exception of talking/whistling and flying, I thoroughly disagree. And yes, I have owned both.

[kohala]

What do you mean, "you can do far more things TO a bird", Popcornbird? LOL:D
I notice you get pretty passionate about the things you believe in, which is understandable. So surely you can see that others may have the same feelings about their chosen pets, beliefs, etc.?

My oldest daughter is like you, not only a lover of birds, but a bird magnet!! She could get "wild" birds to come to her! It was interesting to watch her when she was little, like a little St. Francis, or Earth Mother if you prefer ;) . (She would!!)

I like birds a lot, but I love the feeling of my cat's furry purring when she stretches out next to me at night, as I read myself to sleep. I am sure there is a soft, purry bird out there somewhere that could do that, but he or she wouldn't be GRASSHOPPER. For that matter, no other cat could be her, either. And when she goes to the Rainbow Bridge, another cat will probably find me. Because of the wonderful times I have had with Grasshopper, that is the animal spirit I will most likely be looking for.

Just as you and birds are drawn to each other. There is no better or worse animal, just personal preference.

[shais_mom]

I have been trying my darndest to stay the heck away from this thread but I must comment.
Popcornbird, I know you love your birdies, just like I love my dog and cat. Your religion is pretty strict at what I gather over animals. But I simply can't bond with birds. I have never had one. But my grandma has had several and I just didn't enjoy them. She did. My aunt's (her sister's) are terrified by them, why I don't know. I am passionate about my critters, like you are your pets, and people are their kids, and that is wonderful.
AND keeping with the content of the thread. (sigh) I believe in God the Father Almighty, If I didn't then I see no point in believing in anything. Then when my loved ones die, they would be in Limbo and that isn't a nice place. I have to believe in a higher power so that I can know in my heart that I will see my loved ones again.

No more comments from me. I am unsubscribing to this thread and don't want to hear anything directed towards me. Thank you.

[Soledad]

I never said birds weren't real pets.

[aly]

Well I've read 7.5 pages of this thread so far and have to go to work now so I can't finish it before I reply.

I just wanted to say that it is ignorant to think that your beliefs are right and everyone else's are wrong. No one really truely knows whats right and wrong. You can grasp at things to try to prove this or that, but we don't 100% know. And thats okay. I enjoy reading other people's beliefs and I respect each and every one of them. Diversity is a good thing. Open-mindedness is a good thing. Accept what others believe and be happy and comfortable with what you believe. If you have to attack what other people believe in, there is something wrong.

This is not directed at anyone but a general statement in what I feel.

[kohala]

This certainly has turned into an interesting thread!!

I find when I start writing a response here, the words pour out onto the screen, then I re-read them, and realize they are not necessary.

I find the Zen Koans (the sound of one hand clapping, for example) express it best - less is more. The more we talk, the less we say. It eventually comes down to what we do, and I think there isn't a soul here that doesn't "do" one marvelous demonstration of the best in the human spirit:

Love our animals: feathered, furried, scaled, living beings that we are so fortunate to share this delightful little planet with.

[CathyBogart]

Err.....This is rather off the religious part of the thread but I wanted to add to a side discussion.

I was never fond of birds growing up. My grandfather has a rather nasty Red-Lored amazon. Now I work at a pet store, and my view has changed entirely. I spent a good chunk of my day today cuddling with a Blue-Crowned Conure.

A lot of people have the same misunderstanding about reptiles as they do birds. My younger beardie comes up to greet me when I get home. She rides around on my clothes, eats from my hands, makes eye contact with me when I talk to her, and has people and things that she likes and dislikes. Even my snakes come out of hiding when I get home, and my Hognose will come to my hands if I put them down in the tank. Don't try to tell me that that is because they are warm, because she doesn't come to anyone else like that. (At least not to my boyfriend or any of his friends)


On witnessing: Most people; Christian, Catholic, JW, Mormon, will leave after a polite decline. I have only met one very stubborn man who would not leave my college campus one day. This man sat at our fountain for several hours, and ended up singaling out one of my gay friends and telling him that "the fags will burn" and such. The president of our Christian club even asked him to leave.


As to the main topic of this thread......I am pagan. I celebrate both Christmas and Yule. Christmas I celebrate mostly for the benefit of my family. At first when I found my faith, I tried to set aside Christian holidays and traditions altogether. I found myself increasingly alienated from my family. They are (mostly) not devoutly religious or anything, but for some reason the word 'pagan' sends them into a frenzy.

I enjoy the holiday cheeriness, even if the holiday itself is only a mimicry of the original (pagan) holiday, Yule. That is what many 'Christian' holidays today are though, so there is no escaping. I have even found a few things that I can enjoy with my family regarding the two holidays without hurt feelings. I am sure we will find many more, but we are just starting out now.

When the family says grace I either sit quietly or leave the room discreetly beforehand if possible.

My family is not very accepting. I might understand this if they had asked me about the faith and the practices, and found them apalling. It hurts that they simply shun me and dismiss something so important to me without othering to learn anything first. My father yelled and ranted last year at new year's because I left the room a few minutes before my aunt had everyone pray. I will not sit through something I am totally uncomfortable with if it can be politely avoided.

On that note; if anyone has any questions please feel free to ask, and I will try to give you as complete an answer as possible. Thanks for reading!

[Soledad]

Interesting post, Wolfchan.

As for the pets thing, I think everyone is going to have their own favourites based on their experiences, etc. I have a great fear of snakes and spiders so they're not even an option for me. But it's interesting to hear that your snake responds to you the way that it does.

As for the religious points, I'm very sorry to hear that your family is so intolerant about your beliefs. Perhaps you could take a time yourself to explain things? I hope it changes with some time and understanding.

[Ann]

That's cool WolfChan :) I know a lot of Wiccans and Pagans (thanks to a site I work at), and I know that your situation (your family not accepting your beliefs) are sadly very common :(


Originally posted by All Creatures Great And Small
Would you be willing to explain a little about Satanism, or were you just posing that question hypothetically?

I mentioned Satanism as an example and I'm not a Satanist myself although I do know a few of them (again, from the site I work at). But sure, I don't mind telling a little. There is two types of Satanists out there: Teens who wants to be cool and worship Satan and the real Satanist, who don't even belive in Satan. The latter doesn't really belive in Satan or any other gods for that matter, the name Satanist is mainly meant as a slap in the face towards Christians since Satanist usually dislike Christianity and it's followers. True Satanists belive that the only god out there is yourself, only you can make your life's dreams come true and yadda yadda. They are also extremely respectful and good with animals/pets. They see animals just as worthy and important as humans, and that's one of the things about Satanists I like the most. And example of this was when a while back some famous Satanist died in a car crash, and in his online obituary the focus was just as much on him as it was on his dog that had also died in the crash.

[aly]

Thanks for the info Ann. I didn't know any of that. I fell into the rumors that they are evil people who sacrifice animals :o :o :o

[mugsy]

Thanks Ann,,,,I learned something. I guess the Satanists that Aly is referring to and what everyone associates with are the teens who are trying to make a statement without understanding the concept. The movies out today don't help the situation either.

[COCatMama]

um er most of the stuff you described applies to me i.e. the respect for animals etc....but I am an Atheist, NOT a Satanist! I don't understand how a true "Satanist" cannot be a Satan worshipper? The very word has SATAN in it. I do not believe there is a God OR Satan BUT I do believe if you worship "Satan" you are worshipping EVIL, as the christian "Satan" is "Evil". I believe all of us choose whether to be good or evil in this life, and if you choose to worship Evil that makes you a baaaaaaad person. It's like worshipping all the horrible things in the world like war, murder, tragedy etc etc.

[COCatMama]

Wolfchan : I am uncomfortable around "praying" as well, and do not participate in it. My mom knows who I am and accepts it, she may not LIKE it but like her, I am bloody stubborn and she can't change what I believe any more than I can change what she believes.

When ppl want to say Grace before dinner I just thank the earth in my head and stuff like that.

[kohala]

Originally posted by Lalania
[BWhen ppl want to say Grace before dinner I just thank the earth in my head and stuff like that. [/B]

That's actually what it's supposed to be about, Lalania, just as prayer is a centering device, too. Have you ever heard a preacher preach "Hellfire and Brimstone"? Or someone say "Grace" before eating with all kinds of angry, negative things? They are totally missing the point. "Grace" is meant to put you in a peaceful state of mind, as "you are what you eat" referes to more than just the food! Anger is bad for the digestion, and I truly believe that negativity when you are eating feeds the negativity in your body, mind and spirit. I know of a couple that only discusses the meal, recipes and food and nutrition related things when they dine. How cool, and how digestible!!! My opinion of course, but that's what all our posts are anyway, right? Opinions.

[COCatMama]

Grace is for thanking GOD for the food not the Earth. :) I always thank the Earth for good things like, birds singing in the morning, sunshine after rain...a nice sunset... ya know?

[Twisterdog]

The latter doesn't really belive in Satan or any other gods for that matter

Hmmmm ... I'm sorry, but I don't quite buy that one.

To say a Satanist does not believe in Satan is like saying a Christian does not believe in Jesus Christ. That's rather silly.

[Ann]

Originally posted by Twisterdog
To say a Satanist does not believe in Satan is like saying a Christian does not believe in Jesus Christ. That's rather silly.

Perhaps it seems "silly" to you, but that's the way it is. Like I said; they basically only call themselves Satanists to piss off Christians (immature IMHO). Besides, think about it, if they were to belive in Satan they'd have to belive in God too, and that would defeat their whole purpose of only humans are gods.

Lalania, the same goes for you... Satanists aren't evil, not at all. In some ways they remind me of Pagans and Wiccans because they appreciate the earth too.

[COCatMama]

I don't think it's fair to compare a pagan or a wiccan with a Satanist, it's like trying to compare a buddhist with a jew! In any case, I think this thread has run it's course and I finally feel compelled to put my own fishie in my sig. I have a cute fish n' chips one if anyone wants it for their sig :)

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Lalania
Grace is for thanking GOD for the food not the Earth. Not true at all....yes, it begins that way, but it is very often followed by thanking God for family, a home, friends, pets, etc.

[Miss Meow]

Pope John Paul II recently signed two decrees that accept miracles performed by Mother Teresa. One of the miracles is a Bengali cancer victim being cured of her cancer by looking at a picture of Mother Teresa, a year after Mother Teresa's death.

I know some miraculous events happen without explanation, but is this taking the miracle thing a bit far??? Just interested in a perspective from our religious members. Please correct me if I've misinterpreted the miracle; I don't really trust our newspapers :)

[toughCookie]

I am not one that goes to those cure all sessions, or healings or whatever they are called, but I do believe things like that can happen sometimes. so I guess that would go in the "faith" thread?

[Soledad]

I believe that there are things that cannot be explained. There is just too much we don't know about our own brains, physics, etc. to rule "miracles" out.

[COCatMama]

PPB: All I know for sure in this life is that we are connected to the Earth, and if we don't learn to respect it in a hurry we're in deeeeeeeeep trouble. We mess with Nature, and she's gonna mess with us. ;)

[Twisterdog]

As for miracles ... how can anyone say what is and is not a miracle? How do you define that? With your own definition based on your own thoughts and beliefs, of course ... so what constitues a miracle to one person may constitute a coincidence to another and a farce to yet another.

I feel the same way about miracles that I feel about God, angels, ghosts and UFO's .... no one on Earth is EVER going to have the answers. Maybe we'll find out someday, or maybe we won't. But I think debating these things is pointless .... NONE of know the answers.

[COCatMama]

Ahhh but extra-terr whatsits (sorry, had a glass of red wine last night and I have a killer headache, can't think!!) are statistically probable.....there are SOOOO many planets and solar systems out there, the odds of there being NO other life in the galaxy is pretty slim! But, I do not believe in alien abductions/ UFO's
I think one look at our barbaric little planet would have those guys not walking, but RUNNING away! :D

[Twisterdog]

Yeah, no kidding ... alien abductions make me roll my eyes. If they wanted to take one of us and experiment on us ... why bother to return us at all? ;)

[COCatMama]

Yeah you'd think after the first hillbilly farmer they'd say 'Geez what a bunch of idiots, let's leave and not come back' hehehe