Cats.....

[slleipnir]

I walked into biology class the other day and saw a cat disected, her uterus was open and you could see her near ready to be born kittens! I thought it was really neat, I was concerned at where the cat came from, but figured it was probably sick. Today in class, my teacher was telling us about when he disect the fetal pig, and that someone will get to cut the cat (We appearintly get a new cat every 2 years..ours was the new one) open and its uterus etc. Then a guy asked how do they die. The teacher said the pigs are usually killed for something wrong with them and it can't be fixed, or is too expensive, so they put them to sleep and give their piglet embryos/fetus's to the place that sell it to my school. Then he said "I can't lie to you, the cats do get killed." It was so sad :[ I don't want to do anything with it if it was killed for the purpose of us to look it, ESPESIALLY when it was pregnant!!! He said theres no way these cats would just come up to the lab and just drop dead while being pregnant. Which I see, yes, but why do we have to study them if they have to killed? -sigh- I find it interesting though, does that make me an evil person? If me not seeing it would make cats not be killed, I definatly wouldn't, but..I don't know, I just find biology so interesting. Anyway, I just thought it was sad, poor kitties :'[ The kittens I saw reminded me of the time I was working at the vet clinic and saw a cat having a C-section. I got to hold/rub the 1st kitten, it was alive, it was soo tiny and cute!! The other one died though :[ Poor thing. It was amazing though. Duno how I associate the two but anywho.....sorry, just wanted to blab :[

[Soledad]

I did a cat dissection in 12th grade. I had really hard time deciding if I should do it or not. The cats had been strays that could not be adopted out and were killed in a very humane way.

I figured that with cat and dog overpopulation, if someone could gain from the death of these animals that need to be put down to control numbers, then that was okay.

I am so glad I did it, because I have a profoundly larger respect for life and the intricate systems within all of us.

But it will come down to you and how you can rationalise the situation.

[neko1]

Thank god the only thing I've ever disected was a chicken foot and a rat! There is no way I would ever disect a cat! I have 4 of them running around in my house and I love cats too much to cut one open. But if need be, I could probably disect other animals, although I'm not sure cause I haven't been in that situation. I have seen necropsies before on cats and it's totally disgusting-yet interesting to see the organs and stuff, but I still don't like it at all.

[slleipnir]

I would probably disect it too, it does kinda bother me that it had to be killed though. I don't find it at all gross seeing it, I saw cats, dogs, horses, pigs getting neutered or spayed, I actually thought it was an amazing experience, I guess thats a little different from this. I'm excited about the pig for now anyway :] Not sure when we're going to do that cat, but we're doing a little in embryology (sp?) so thats why were looking at the kittens..
Soledad, thanks, that is a good point, I suppose a lot of them (strays) could end up having a worst death cause of other pop. or something..

[Soledad]

Don't forget....med students have to dissect PEOPLE. If you want to be a vet, you have to be willing to do these things.

Good luck, I hope you enjoy it and can see the beauty of life.

[slleipnir]

I actually dont think I want to be a vet. Main for the fact you have to kill perfectly health animals sometimes and its hard seeing people when theyve lost a pet...

[kohala]

Originally posted by slleipnir
I actually dont think I want to be a vet. Main for the fact you have to kill perfectly health animals sometimes and its hard seeing people when theyve lost a pet...

They generally aren't perfectly healthy animals, but I understand how hard it can be when we're talking about a being we view as a friend. But thank God for the people who CAN do it; what a horrible world it would be if there were no veterinarians!

My father brought a cat to school for a biology class he was teaching (back in the '40s - before I came along). He had to euthanize it then prepare it for the class. I had major resentment for that until I grew older and began to understand things a little more.

As to perfectly healthy animals, the way you keep them that way is to "vet" them from time to time. Sometimes it's hard to perform an uncomfortable procedure on your animal friend, but it beats letting them continue in illness or injury.

By the way, did you know that the cat's anatomy (unlike the apre of monkey, as so many still believe) is more like human anatomy than any other being on this planet?

[moosmom]

Maybe I'm a little too sensitive, but if it were me, I'd have walked out. There are so many other ways to learn about things like that (virtual reality??) than to cut open a pregnant cat. Just the thought gives me chills.

I was a paramedic for over 20 years and NEVER had to disect a household pet to learn about anatomy. And yes, I do realize that medical students do work on cadavers, having seen them at the UConn Medical School. I do find the human body very fascinating. I guess it all depends on your perspective.

[jenluckenbach]

I may be a little wishy-washy here, but I think that a grade school or even high school class can learn from models and virtual reality, saving the REAL thing for those NEEDING to do it (vet's in training). After all, only doctor's in training work on cadavers. This should minimize the amount of needless death, don't you think?

[kohala]

Originally posted by jenluckenbach
I may be a little wishy-washy here, but I think that a grade school or even high school class can learn from models and virtual reality, saving the REAL thing for those NEEDING to do it (vet's in training). After all, only doctor's in training work on cadavers. This should minimize the amount of needless death, don't you think?

You know, that's a very good point!! We certainly have the technology, although, granted, we don't seem to prioritize our schools (as far as being given the funds to obtain the technology) as much as we need to. When my Dad taught school, the technology was obviously not there. And it seems that skills insofar as actual operations go are taught at a much higher level, so where IS the need (in high school) to cut up anything?

Good Point, Jen!!!

[mugsy]

Very good point Jen, but Ko is right. Technology in schools is sorely lacking. Right now the only 2 computers in my classroom are mine and my room mate's. And they are ancient by computer years. I have the same computer with no updates that I've had since 1998. We have a Mac lab, but it's in use with typing classes all day except the first 2 periods of the day. Language Arts teachers have banks of about 8 ancient computers in their rooms and we are one of the lucky schools in our system. I know when I taught 6th grade science we did put a cd in with a "virtual" dissection of a worm albeit it WAS a real worm, but had been filmed. And THAT was just about too much for the poor little Macs that we had! lol

[Soledad]

I guess I don't understand what the problem is, especially as humane shelters put down animals by the hundreds DAILY. Why not use their deaths for something positive?

That class totally changed my perspective at a very tender age. We also did a "virtual" dissection and it was completely different and not nearly as inspiring.

[ownerof3dogs]

Originally posted by Soledad
I guess I don't understand what the problem is, especially as humane shelters put down animals by the hundreds DAILY. Why not use their deaths for something positive?

That class totally changed my perspective at a very tender age. We also did a "virtual" dissection and it was completely different and not nearly as inspiring.

I totally agree with you. I couldn't have said it better. Why not get something out of there deaths?

I also think dissection is very fasinating. And seeing it virtually wouldn't be the same. But since I want to be a vet (I work for one now) seeing animals cut open doesn't bother me. For some people it is disturbing. At work I've seen/assisted many surgeries and necropsies. I find it very interesting. I think the bottom line is that it should/is a choice. And if you do do it it doesn't make you a bad person or someone who doesn't care about animals. I mean I have 4 cats and 3 dogs!I love animals and wouldn't do anything to hurt one.

[mugsy]

I've done plenty of dissections, but I didn't enjoy them much. I do agree that they are necessary to learn anatomy and how different animals work differently. I do think, however, that certain ages are a little too young for a cat. My 6th graders freaked out with worms, I would hate to think how they would have reacted to a frog, let alone a cat! Sheesh, I would have had irrate parents out the ying yang if that had happened.

[Soledad]

Of course age is a consideration. I was 10 when I dissected a lamb's heart and lungs, 12 when we did the worm, 13 when we did the frog, 15 when we did mollosks, and 16 or 17 when I did the cat.

[RockyRoad]

Sorry, I do not cut up things. I have not gotten to the point where we do it in school but my science teacher said I did not have to do it. It just is really scary to cut open a living thing and actually look inside it. :eek: I'm one of those people who gets all queasy and stuff when I see cut open animals/people. It just gives me the creeps.:eek: I guess I sort of stand out here. What is it like?? :confused:

[Soledad]

Well, it's not a living thing. It's a dead thing and it was going to be dead whether you chose to cut it up or not, so you might as well learn about it.

It's VERY fascinating. I just cannot believe the complexity of our bodies.

[RockyRoad]

Originally posted by Soledad
Well, it's not a living thing. It's a dead thing and it was going to be dead whether you chose to cut it up or not, so you might as well learn about it.

It's VERY fascinating. I just cannot believe the complexity of our bodies.

Oh yeah oops it isn't living my mistake! It just makes me really nervous, but I do not know why.

[Nomilynn]

Didn't she say that the cat was killed for the purpose of the dissection? Maybe I misunderstood, but I took it as the teacher said the cat was killed for the class, and I think that is completely disgusting. I will not dissect anything. Maybe the cat was already dead, but it wasn't before the dissection. It is one thing if the animal was ill and had to be put down in the first place, but it's wrong if the cat was killed simply because it would have gone to a shelter otherwise. In high school I was supposed to dissect a cow's eye, a fish and maybe a worm. I wouldn't do it, even though I knew the eye came from a cow used for meat and stuff. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

[slleipnir]

Yes, the cats are killed for that purpose, my teacher said its VERY unlikey a cat will be sick at that time. I really do agree there should be different ways to go about this, but I know there really isn't any other way for me, this would be the only time I'd see it. We actually saw it today. They cut her open, and we saw all her organs, then he took out a kitten, it was so tiny, it was still pink, but I don't know why, but I thought it was cute. We also saw a pigs uterus, I had NO clue it would be that big, it was huge! We saw a little pigglet too :]

Like I said, I found it hurt to see the cat, but me not seeing it, wouldn't make it stop, and I could be cruel, but I wanted to see it :[ I find it sooo amazing to learn about where they came from, how the developed. It makes you understand and appresiate it more.

[Nomilynn]

Originally posted by slleipnir
Yes, the cats are killed for that purpose, my teacher said its VERY unlikey a cat will be sick at that time.

That is what makes me so incredible angry. Cats are not dispensible, and to kill a cat - a pregnant one at that - is inhumane and disgusting. I cannot believe that a high school would be allowed to do something like that. Would we take a homeless person off the street because "they would have ended up in a shelter anyway" and use him or her as a scientific experiment? I really don't think so.

I totally agree to what Nomilynn wrote in her 2 replies !!!

In highschool , we dissected a rabit and a fish (yuck !!!) ; I hated it !! One pupil even fainted !! I agree if this is done at schools for veterinary-students , but NOT in highschools !!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Soledad]

I think students should have the right to choose if they want to participate or not, but I do not think that we should take away that experience all together. Some people learn a great deal from it. What about kids who didn't think about a veterinary/medical career until they did do dissections? You have to expose them to things early.

[Soledad]

I also think that the only people who are really justified to be opposed to dissection are vegetarians. Otherwise it just seems hypocritical to kill animals for your own nutrition, but be outraged when someone wants to use an animal's death for educational purposes.

[Nomilynn]

Originally posted by Soledad
... animal's death for educational purposes.

The animal didn't die. The animal was KILLED.. there is a huge difference.

[Soledad]

And it was KILLED to end up on your plate or on your feet.

[slleipnir]

I don't know, I have to agree with soledad. I really don't like the idea of killing, but I mean, how else would we learn about it?? A dog? A pig? Either way, if you want to learn by veiwing it, you gotta see it. I wish there was some way not to kill them, but I mean, like soledad said its probably a stray cat or one that will die anyway..The animals are put to sleep so they feel no pain..I look at some places over population of cats, and think about it..These cats will have kittens who will have kittens etc, thats why theres so many strays right? Is it REALLY far for those kittens to grow up a stray and die some painful death by disease? Sure they don't all, but its likely too..I know that doesn't make it right, and I hope you don't think I'm all like "who cares, kill them" If I HAD the choice to say no don't kill them, I would say no for sure, but seeing its offered to me, I'm going to take it. Personally, I'm a visial learner, I need to see it and do it myself for me to learn it..I really do feel bad though, I really am kind of in the middle of things here, but I duno..I just know I'll never get the experience again..

[ownerof3dogs]

slleipnir.

I totally agree with what you are saying. I am the same way, I have to see it myself to learn it. The thing I found was you get torn between feeling terrible about the dead cat but at the same time you feel interested and want to look and learn about the inside of the cat. It like you stuck between a rock and a hard place. The way I looked at it was the cat was already killed and the rest of the class was still going to dissect it..so why not just stay and learn from it.

[Nomilynn]

Originally posted by Soledad
And it was KILLED to end up on your plate or on your feet.

What kind of comment is that supposed to be? I was talking about the cat, not animals that are killed for food. I cannot believe you would say something so incredibly offensive and disgusting as that. I don't have a problem with a cat being killed for a reason, and in that death it can be put to a good use, but I completely disagree with someone going to a shelter and asking for a pregnant cat because a biology class is interested in its guts. So don't you twist my words around like that without making sure you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

[kingrattus]

At kill shelters they don't care if the animal is pregnet or not. To them, a dead cat is a dead cat, & if they can sell the dead cat, then maybe they can use the money to help save an animal that has a chance of a getting a home.


Don't be silly, they don't use homless people, they use people in prisons. (not joking)

[slleipnir]

What kind of comment is that supposed to be? I was talking about the cat, not animals that are killed for food. I cannot believe you would say something so incredibly offensive and disgusting as that. I don't have a problem with a cat being killed for a reason, and in that death it can be put to a good use, but I completely disagree with someone going to a shelter and asking for a pregnant cat because a biology class is interested in its guts. So don't you twist my words around like that without making sure you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. \

I don't know, I don't think Soledad ment it that way, I took it as its basically the same thing, we kill animals to eat, we kill a lot more then we need too, so how is it different from 1-2 cats? I think there is a reason for that, thats why I did it, its not like its just being killed and thrown away, people are learning stuff from it that will last them a life time, I know it will for me.

[Karen]

We all have to remeber that this takes place in the real world, not PetTalkville.

It is a sad truth that about 5 million cats and dogs are euthanized in shelters each year. And no one can count the one who die of disease or injury because someone "set them free."

If, indeed, some of those who were euthanized can be used to educate the next generation of human being, doctors, nurses, veterinarians, and the like, I think that has to be a positive thing.

I am sure these animals being dissected were ones slated for death anyway - that no scientist goes into a shelter, looks at potential adoptees and says - "I'll take THAT one" for the purposes of preparing it for classroom dissection.

Love the animals you've got. Tell everyone to spay and neuter the ones they have. On the happy day when there are no unwanted cats and dogs being euthanized, no overcrowding the shelters, THEN we'll be a society prepared to deal with what to do about dissection.

[RockyRoad]

I agree with everyone. It is totally rude and selfish to kill a cat for educational purposes only. On the other hand, I think that they should use DEAD cat's bodies for educational purposes, IF the cat was NOT killed for it. I am a vegiterian and I do oppose to killing animals just for food, but that is just my opinion. But food could be understandable because it is for our needs, but fashion is just horrible. It is totally unacceptable that animals can be killed so people can be rich and look beautiful and stay in with the fashion statement. Anyway, I think animals deserve the same treatment as us humans for we are animals too. I think I would never disect an animal more because it would get me sick. This year we must disect animals for the first time. I already spoke to my teacher and he isn't going to have me do it. Everyone keeps asking me why I will not do it and others will even make fun of me at times because I am the only one in the grade not doing it (so far). So I agree with everyone, in a way, especially Naomi. Lut said it should not be done in high school, well this is seventh grade! As people are disecting at lower and lower ages, the animals are getting killed. We are only doing frogs, but that makes it even more hard for me because I love all reptiles and amphibians.

[slleipnir]

FloppsyLadySally89: Thats the thing, cats that are pregnant just don't die, if they do, its VERY unlikely. I think it is ok if used for an educational purpose, how can we learn unless we see it? If its not a cat, then maybe it can be something else. I duno about other people, but I need to see things first hand to really get the whole picture..