Non-surgical ACL treatment

[Taz_Zoee]

Has anyone ever heard this before?
I found a website that talks about it. As you may know, Zoee is at my moms to rest her knee. I researched ACL's and found this (http://www.tiggerpoz.com/) website that seems to be legit.
The guy talks about how surgery isn't always the answer and there is ways to determine if surgery is really needed. My mom agreed to give this a try.

Has anyone here ever had a dog with a ligament problem and not had to have surgery done?

I just have to say...I :love: my mom. This would not be possible without her. It would be impossible to keep Zoee from activity with Taggart around. I know she is in good hands (even though my dad is slightly allergic to her, heehee) and will be loved just as much as she is here. Although I really do miss her.

[wolf_Q]

I know of two people (grooming customers) who didn't do the surgery on dogs with ACL problems. One lady had a GSD, she found out about these supplements http://www.springtimeinc.com/ and had great success with them. I haven't researched it much myself but she told me often they have to have surgery on both knees because they mess up the other one taking weight off the injured one after surgery. The dog was still sore sometimes but overall she did great and could walk fine. Another grooming customer told me their golden retriever had torn her acl so I told her about the supplements as well. She was older (10ish?) when it happened so the vet had recommended not to do surgery. She used the supplements and after a year it was amazing the vet checked it again and said she didn't even need surgery at all...she was still a little sensitive about that leg but she walked fine, when it first happened she would not even put weight on it and lost all muscle tone.

[lizbud]

My Lab mix Maggie injured her tendon early this summer. She could not
put any weight on her left rear leg.:(

http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=168055&highlight=maggie

The Vet suggested rest & pain control meds first before considering any
surgery. She told me I wasn't a badmom to resist surgery as a only option.
She has Golden Retrievers & said she follows her own advice with them too.

It took a good two months of limited activity but she has recovered
nicely. Still takes 1/2 a 100mg Rimyadil tablet each morning with blood
tests every 3-4 months & she gets around fine.(knock wood ):)

[chocolatepuppy]

Never heard of that. My RB Lacey's ligaments where both torn in half, so I doubt anything but surgery would have helped her.:(

[MonicanHonda]

Yes I have. There is a magazine called Dogs Naturally (I believe its from Chicago) It just had an article about Ligament recovery without surgery.

[Taz_Zoee]

Thanks for the replies! :D
I think I will try the treatment on this website first. If that doesn't appear to be working then we might try those supplements Amy suggests. I'll try anything and rule it out before surgery.

I know her knee is not completely blown since she does use it sometimes. But my mom is limiting her activity down to just walking and not even a lot of that. She can't come home until we know its healed. That could even take a year....it just depends on the dog. :( Poor Taggart is missing her so much. All he does is mope around. We also miss her a lot!

[chocolatepuppy]

I know her knee is not completely blown since she does use it sometimes.

Are you sure that's a sign it's not blown out? Seems Lacey could use her leg when we tried the 'resting' it for months. Not to be a party pooper, just trying to save you possible wasted months of trying to have it get better.

[Taz_Zoee]

Are you sure that's a sign it's not blown out? Seems Lacey could use her leg when we tried the 'resting' it for months. Not to be a party pooper, just trying to save you possible wasted months of trying to have it get better.

Well the vet didn't really say it was blown. Just that it was the ACL...whatever that means. :confused: If the rest or supplements do not seem to be helping we will take her to another vet for a second opinion. The vet was not forcefully pushing surgery on me either. She just prescribed Previcox and Tramadol for her. I figured if it was severe the vet would be insisting surgery. The vet also knows she is at my moms on rest.

I know, the thought keeps crossing my mind that it could get worse if we don't do something about it NOW. But I do feel comfortable that my mom is limiting her activity enough that further injury should not happen.

[lizbud]

Cindy, did your Vet actually do a hands on manipulation of the knee?
They can usually tell the amount of damage from that alone.

[Taz_Zoee]

Cindy, did your Vet actually do a hands on manipulation of the knee?
They can usually tell the amount of damage from that alone.

Yes she did. She didn't feel anything. That's why she took an xray. And when she looked at the xray she thought it was arthritis. But then when the xray tech looked they said ACL and that she needed surgery. I don't think the vet agreed with that 100%, like I said.
Another hard thing is...Zoee is so stoic when she's at the vet. She doesn't even flinch in pain when the leg is being manipulated so it's difficult to tell what hurts her.

[lizbud]

Sorry, I didn't realise that you had xrays done too. It is hard to keep
them as inactive as possible b/c the pain meds masks the damage so well.
I did keep Maggie from playing in the house & took her outside for potty
breaks on leash every time. That lasted for 8 weeks & was hard for someone
who was used to opening the back door & let her run out on her own. I was
afraid she would injure the other leg before the first was healed over enough
to take her weight.

Prayers for Zoee to heal up well as she stays at your Mom's house.

[chocolatepuppy]

I know, the thought keeps crossing my mind that it could get worse if we don't do something about it NOW. But I do feel comfortable that my mom is limiting her activity enough that further injury should not happen.

Oh no, I'm not saying you could be wasting time and it might get worse. With Lacey's first one, we kept her on leash and on meds, it didn't get better and when we did have the surgery done, the vet said it never would have healed on it's own. So we wasted a couple of months trying to get it to heal and it never would have. But if your vet manipulated it and took xrays I'm sure you're doing the right thing. I hope Zoee doesn't have to have surgery.

[Taz_Zoee]

We actually decided (this past Friday) the best way to do this would be to take her off all meds (Previcox and Tramadol). This way we can see true results and the pain won't be masked by meds (there is a section on the website explaining this). Of course if she is showing extreme pain my mom will give her the Tramadol at night. We are taking it day by day and will do whatever is best for her as far as pain goes. Just in the two weeks she's been there my mom said she is not limping as bad as the first week she was there. So there already seems to be improvement. And this was before we decided on the stricter limited activity plan! So I am hopeful.

Thanks so much everyone for your support! It means the world to me. :D

I will get to see her this Sunday when I go to drop off Taggart for a week. Then again on on the 23rd when I go to pick Taggart up. :D

[wolf_Q]

Just fyi if you are thinking of ordering some supplements from springtime they are having free shipping until January 11th and a lot of their dog supplements are buy two get one free.

[Taz_Zoee]

Just fyi if you are thinking of ordering some supplements from springtime they are having free shipping until January 11th and a lot of their dog supplements are buy two get one free.

Good to know! Thanks! :D

ETA: Amy, I do not know which supplements were used in the cases you talked about. Can you please give me the name of the supplement? :)

[wolf_Q]

The one she used were the joint chewables (I give these to Nebo too) and the longevity powder.

[Taz_Zoee]

The one she used were the joint chewables (I give these to Nebo too) and the longevity powder.

Thank you! :D

[Kater]

Hi! I don't know the entire history on Zoee's injury, but it sounds suspicious for a partial tear as opposed to complete ligament rupture. Usually complete rupture is pretty evident by manipulation (not in terms of a pain response, but specific abnormal biomechanics of the knee). In contrast, a partial rupture is harder to diagnose, even with x-rays. The x-rays won't show ligaments (soft tissue all looks the same - muscle, ligaments, vessels, etc.), so you are mostly looking for a pattern of swelling/excess fluids in an acute injury, which can be supportive but not really definitive.

Kirk had a partial tear back in 2007. Given his numerous hip surgeries at that point, I decided not to pursue surgery. I did intense hydrotherapy, joint supplementation (oral and injectible) and maintained him at a very lean body weight. After a number of months, he was weight bearing on the leg again and starting to gain back muscle mass!

My non-surgical suggestions for Zoee would be:
-activity restriction (of the off leash/free play type) & anti-inflammatory medications short term (you are currently doing these)
-pursue physical therapy/hydrotherapy if possible, or just find someplace she can regularly swim -- you want her using that leg ASAP (in a controlled fashion) to keep inflammation down, maintain range of motion and muscle mass and also reduce scarring long term
-keep her lean! --as in a THIN layer of fat over her lower ribs. I mean it! :p
-Dasuquin (my favorite oral joint supplement: glucosamine + chondroitin + an avocado ingredient shown to work synergistically with chondroitin)-- expensive? yes, more than a generic pet or human product, but also has actually undergone research trials and comes from a very reputable company that has something to lose if they get bad press
-Adequan (or generics) --an injectible oral joint support product you can get from the vet
-Omega-3s -- I like Nordic Naturals, you want a high level of EPA and dosing such that EPA+DHA mg dose equals 30-40 mg/kg/day (I can help you figure this out if you want...)

Re: the website you asked about. I'm not a big fan, but to be fair I did not read it all. Once he goes off on veterinary surgeons just pushing surgery for money and claiming that we charge too much, I lose interest. That is not true of any of the veterinary surgeons I have met. They are highly trained personnel that deserve to be paid fairly. I recognize my bias as a soon-to-be-new veterinary school grad with a mound of debt, but it just makes me wonder about his intentions...seems a little more conspiracy and a little less holistic 'do no harm' approach.

I would recommend the following website to learn more about CCL rupture: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=1975 .

Let me know if I can help further in any way. Best of luck to you and Zoee! I remember meeting that pretty girl of yours.

[IRescue452]

As a person with a severed ligament that will never heal I think supplements are a bunch of bs. Whether or not its going to heal well depends on how much is still close enough together to stitch itself back up. Its not the supplements helping these dogs, its the time and rest. My ankle ligament was completely severed from a fall 6 years ago and its still painful and I couldn't have surgery because I do not have health insurance. I do not think I would wait for supplements to work if there was a bad tear. The truth about supplements is, if the injury is already there, its too late. Supplements take time to build up. Same with glucosamine for old dogs, too late to start after arthritis. I'm not saying small tears need surgury, but large ones should probably get it. Ligaments very quickly lose elasticity when in the same place too long. As far as older dogs go though, I would not put either of my old dogs through another surgery at this point. They would get pain meds and rest. Surgery is hard on an old dog.

[Kater]

As a person with a severed ligament that will never heal I think supplements are a bunch of bs. Whether or not its going to heal well depends on how much is still close enough together to stitch itself back up. Its not the supplements helping these dogs, its the time and rest. My ankle ligament was completely severed from a fall 6 years ago and its still painful and I couldn't have surgery because I do not have health insurance. I do not think I would wait for supplements to work if there was a bad tear. The truth about supplements is, if the injury is already there, its too late. Supplements take time to build up. Same with glucosamine for old dogs, too late to start after arthritis. I'm not saying small tears need surgury, but large ones should probably get it. Ligaments very quickly lose elasticity when in the same place too long. As far as older dogs go though, I would not put either of my old dogs through another surgery at this point. They would get pain meds and rest. Surgery is hard on an old dog.


I am somewhat in agreement - these supplements are not going to heal whatever injury is there. However, I disagree that they are useless. The purposes of these products are to reduce inflammation, reduce long-term changes (arthritis basically) and keep the animal comfortable (works better in some animals than others). The ligament tear is not really what hurts. What hurts is the secondary changes from our body's inflammation and the dynamic process known as arthritis.

I have seen my dog on an acupuncture-only regime compared to now where he's on four medications (2 drugs & 2 supplements) and I would never go back. He does amazingly well on this particular combination of medications! That doesn't mean results are the same for every dog or person, but I feel these things are worth trying if surgery is not an option. Just my opinion.

[Seravieve]

I know Im not around much but here's my two cents!

Eli had a torn ACL two years ago, had TPLO surgery. We did try to not have surgery for about a month prior. It was a partial tear, so he would use it and then not, back and forth. Ultimately, with the risks of arthritis and having it completely tear down the road, and considering he was 4 at the time, and not to mention hes a good 70 pounds, we went with the surgery. I have heard of smaller dogs not having the surgery, because with their weight it usually will heal enough.

If nothing else, I wanted to reply to the previous posts about Dasuquin. LOVE LOVE LOVE it for Eli.
He has some issues w/ arthritic degeneration in his spine (abuse from previous owners) which limited his range of motion and lead to severe muscle spasms.
We had him on Deramaxx for several years because of this, having his liver levels tested routinely (steroids).
When we had the TPLO surgery done, the vet (diff from our usual vet) recommended we use it, and that it would help w/ the ACL problem.
He's been taking it ever since, and was taken off of Deramaxx and hasnt had any muscle spasms since.
We buy it on Amazon, cheapest I've found it. (Dasuquin w MSM is what we use)

Good luck!