Collar training vs positive training

[Sowa]

I'm not really sure what it's called but has anyone done both? Train their dogs using training collars (ex: pinch, choker) also train a dog using positive training such as treats and clicker (no pinch etc).

I'm not looking for any arguments over this, I'm simply curious if anyone has tried both, which works better do you think and why? I've trained my past 2 using collars and I'm thinking of doing positive for Clover as I have so far she seems to be doing well with it.

I had talked to a trainer about not using a collar and he said there is no such thing as positive only training. So it doesn't work, don't waste my time basically. However I've been taking Clo to puppy class and the lady only uses positive. She showed me a video of her dogs and it's very impressive how she's trained them. I'm going to her for more help on this at some point.

Just wondering how others feel and how either has worked for you.

[Freedom]

I have never used a choke collar or a pinch collar -- they are prohibited at the place I go to for obedience training, rally O!, and Agility.

Positive training ONLY.

WHY would you want to hurt your dog?

[Suki Wingy]

I DO usually use pinch collars. They don't really hurt when used correctly.
Of course one form of training is never going to work on every single dog, they are each individuals and you may need to alter your training for each animal. The mark of a good trainer is understanding this and being ale to cater to each individual.

[ToBeEvergreen]

Some dogs are sensitive to punishment techniques. Some breeds cannot handle it that well, and may become fearful or aggressive from it.

Positive training, I have found it to have no negative side effects. Food is a VERY strong motivator in some dogs, so it makes an excellent training tool. Although I've yet to try it with Cass, I have also heard that clicker training works well with some dogs. It's becoming more popular to use positive reinforcement, as although it may take a little longer to set in, it seems effective.

Treat= good. Good= repeat that behavior. Or "click"= repeat good behavior. Those connections stick around in the dog's head and are very easy for her to grasp. The dog will do more things that gain a positive reward, because they want more good. I personally will only ever use positive reinforcement methods for my dogs. They've worked fine so far. Knowing a dog's body language and why they do certain things helps a lot. Instead of working against their nature, working with them may be beneficial for training. For example, body language around other dogs. Chances are, your dog will not like every dog she meets. Signs of nervousness or anger can be caught, and the dogs steered away from each other in order to avoid an altercation, rather than this: Dog growls, you hit dog. Dog now associates the strange dog with "hit", and further distaste for other dogs may be harbored. In my opinion, collars only reinforce pain or even discomfort as a control method, but not always a solution, getting down to the root of the problems.

[snakemama]

I use a combination of shock collar training and treat luring. I do a lot of work with Sit Means Sit dog training, where the shock collar is used NOT as a punishment but as a tool to help the dog focus. My first training session was spent with my trainer holding the collar in his hand the entire time and recieving the shocks to make sure I had timing and accuracy down. He said he usually does the first two or three sessions that way, but Jasper and I both learn fast.

It's a very effective way to train, and it means that Jasper has a TON more freedom than he otherwise would, since he can be a guest in people's homes and be mannerly. Before SMS, I couldn't bring him places. We've been through a LOT of training with positive only trainers, and things did improve some, but no matter how hard I worked with him, I couldnt' get certain aspects of his behavior under control.

Now, we get the nicest compliments on his wonderful behavior while we're out! Constantly!

Here's a nice video from a Sit Means Sit trainer! Does Honey look scared or stressed or upset?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DTaPe4t4nA

[Lady's Human]

Every dog is different, but I will NEVER use a choke collar.

If I tried it, Lady would pull regardless until she passed out. Sometimes they're just too hard headed. Besides, while I understand the theory involved with choke collars, it just rubs me completely the wrong way.

I wound up training Lady with a mix of positive reinforcement and punishment, and she went from a separation anxiety pup who hated being anywhere near kids to being at least able to tolerate children and a pup who's very secure with her place in the pack. She can handle being alone now, which is something that was a nightmare for the first year or so she was with us.

[IRescue452]

I trained Autumn at the local dog club 12 years ago. They used training/choke collars and positive treat luring. I don't remember ever actually pulling the the collar tight to correct her, but it was used for a quick attention getter. The class would have been just as effective with a nylon collar. It was all positive training though except maybe when you had to use a firm voice for the "leave it" command. That was it. No abuse and very little negativity. Everybody I know says Autumn is one of the most well-trained dogs they've met.

[Asiel]

I used both but my preferred one is the prong. Most classes that I see today have the elderly put their dogs on a prong because dogs won't usually pull when using them , it's like power steering and so much easier for older folks who usually end up being dragged when using choke collars. Choke collars can hurt the dog if not used properly so you do have to learn how to use it before trying it.
Honestly I think Nilif is my best training device yet and requires no collar. Whatever works for the dog I say keep using it. All dogs are different so different methods for different dogs.

[K9soul]

I like positive training and clicker training in particular. http://www.clickertraining.com/

It's pretty much the opposite philosophy from the Sit Means Sit. I just would not feel comfortable with a "stimulant" based training personally.

Just as a contrast to the other video, here is one with examples of dogs doing tricks trained via clicker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQpIojDLGwQ

[wolf_Q]

All of my dogs were trained using positive reinforcement, just the classes at Petco/Petsmart. I taught them all tricks using a clicker, Nebo and Keva know a ton of tricks and they caught on fast (they are very food motivated). Skya and Killer are also food motivated but not as smart so they don't know too many ha ha. I have a couple of prong collars I have used for walks, not training, but the huskies have fur so thick they barely feel it. However I haven't used those in years I had one pop open a couple of times and it scared me I was afraid I'd lose a dog so I don't use them now. I've never used any sort of choke/prong/shock collar for training I don't see the need to and I would consider my dogs well behaved. With the exception of not being able to let them off leash (the huskies, Killer does fine) but that's not their fault that's a breed trait and honestly I've never tried to train them to be good off leash because everything I've ever read said not to even try it with huskies. Their desire to run/prey instinct is too strong.

[snakemama]

I think there's a place for positive reinforcement, luring, and properly used training collars. When Jasper sees the box of treats he knows it's time to learn a new fun trick. When he sees his collar, he goes wild with joy because it's time to go outside! It's funny, when we go to the dog park, if I get up and walk around, he comes up next to me in a perfect heel and asks to work.

When I worked as a vet tech I did see the occasional trachea injury from incorrectly used choke collars. It was horrific, and it has stuck in my mind. I'm happy to know the Sit Means Sit collar could never do something like that to my baby boy. :)

[K9soul]

I agree on not caring for the choker type training collars. I would prefer even a (properly used) prong to those due to the risk of damage as mentioned.

I also believe that dogs who are worked with in regular training are overall happier and more confident dogs in general. I often rue that I don't have more time to do more work with my own, but hope that will change in the future.

I won't say other training methods are wrong. Anything that produces a happy, well-trained dog and an enhanced relationship between dog and owner is a success story in my opinion. But I will state my personal preference for positive methods, and my belief that they can produce the same results as other methods. It comes down to what a person feels most comfortable with, and any method can be done in a detrimental way, even positive methods! Education and research is the key.

[MonicanHonda]

I'm not looking at any other replies because I know they will just make me want to argue and its too late for that. :) But I currently go to Karen Pryor Academy for dog training and behavior. We prefer the term Progressive trainers, because the one trainer was correct, you cannot be a purely positive trainer. We believe in positive reinforcement!!!! and NEGATIVE PUNISHMENT! Like if my dog were to pull on leash, I wouldn't correct, but I would stand and ignore until my dog stopped pulling, then continue on. (While reinforcing for llw) Negative punishment means we take something away to lessen the chance of the dog doing the unwanted behavior again. Ignoring the puppy when it bites. When it stops, resume play. There will always be punishment, I just choose not to correct my dog. This gives the dog the chance to try different things to get rewarded. My dog isn't afraid of being corrected for trying something. Extremely helpful when they are learning. My dogs quickly learn that they get rewarded for loose leash and get things taken away from them for tight leash. I honestly believe all dogs can be trained with positive reinforcement, negative punishment, however not all dogs can be trained with positive punishment.

Forgot to show you kikopup. she's an amazing trainer with an amazing youtube library. She came up with the term 'progressive' dog training.

http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup?blend=1&ob=4

[Sowa]

I'm not looking at any other replies because I know they will just make me want to argue and its too late for that. :) But I currently go to Karen Pryor Academy for dog training and behavior. We prefer the term Progressive trainers, because the one trainer was correct, you cannot be a purely positive trainer. We believe in positive reinforcement!!!! and NEGATIVE PUNISHMENT! Like if my dog were to pull on leash, I wouldn't correct, but I would stand and ignore until my dog stopped pulling, then continue on. (While reinforcing for llw) Negative punishment means we take something away to lessen the chance of the dog doing the unwanted behavior again. Ignoring the puppy when it bites. When it stops, resume play. There will always be punishment, I just choose not to correct my dog. This gives the dog the chance to try different things to get rewarded. My dog isn't afraid of being corrected for trying something. Extremely helpful when they are learning. My dogs quickly learn that they get rewarded for loose leash and get things taken away from them for tight leash. I honestly believe all dogs can be trained with positive reinforcement, negative punishment, however not all dogs can be trained with positive punishment.

Forgot to show you kikopup. she's an amazing trainer with an amazing youtube library. She came up with the term 'progressive' dog training.

http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup?blend=1&ob=4

I can agree with that. What I didn't agree with is that trainer said you NEED to use a pinch or choke collar to successful. I can understand that there is no true positive training, but I was curious about not needing a training collar. What you said makes sense. I can still work with her without collars. That's the main worry I had. Also his dogs seemed trained because they're fearful they'll get punished. I don't want my dogs to be afraid of me.

[BitsyNaceyDog]

We've only used positive training, with one exception. Our dog, Jake, hates our horses and used to always run into the horse field and nip at them. We tried positive training, but it wasn't working in that situation. We feared Jake would get kicked and badly injured, or worse. We borrowed a shock collar (my husband tried it on himself first) and that shock collar is finally what trained him not to go into the horse field. We only needed to use the shock collar one day and he hasn't gone into the field since, he now stops at the fence, and doesn't go through!

[IRescue452]

You definately don't NEED a training collar of any type. Autumn was pretty well fully trained on sit, down, come and those types of things before my stepdad decided we should do the training class like his brother did with his dog (he was paranoid about having the dog and his new twin daughters). We aced the class because she was well-trained already but we did learn some new tricks like "leave it" and "front" which I'd never heard of before having her. I'd never even owned a training collar before then. How was she trained if I didn't have a training collar? I must be magic. All I used was a normal collar without even a leash attached and some treats.

[binka_nugget]

With my first dog, Kai, I trained with a slip collar. Kaedyn was with primarily corrections as well. When Keeva came along, I trained with positive methods. Leash corrections and positive reinforcement both worked for my dogs and all three listen reliably. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to train a dog but my preferred method is positive reinforcement. The enthusiasm I get from Keeva (positive reinforcement) and Kai & Kaedyn (leash corrections) is huge. And Keeva loves to learn - she offers me new behaviors in order to get a click. It makes training much easier for me.

[J W]

I know this is old, but I wanted to share. There is no such thing as positive only training. People like to think of it as positive only to be politically correct. But using the definitions there is always some punishment as part of the training.

I will go as far as saying no method is better than another. Some trainer are better at using certain methods. Some trainers are just better too. Every animal needs some sort of balance when training. There are some beliefs that method that use corrections are faster then methods that try not to use or minimize the use of "aversions". A slip collar, pinch collar and or and e-collar does not have to cause pain. The word pain is used to frighten the unknowable people off to make you think that they are bad. No one want to hurt their pets. The play on semantics does frighten off many from using these tools. People that often talk about using rewards only an no aversion unless there is no other choice often neglect to mention even if they know it or not that withholding a treat when the dog does not respond they they the owner/handlers wants is also aversive.

Personally I would avoid Petsmart trainers is possible. Yes they can train a dog. Most don't do it well. They really aren't required to know much about training or animal behavior to become one of their trainers. I say this because of first hand knowledge. My son has been training dogs his entire life. He decided to join Petsmart and be one of their trainers. hey advertise that they train their trainers. He didn't mind learning a different method. He was called in interviewed and was going through the training. The training consisted of here is a book, read it and now refer to this book for training and questions. Someone asked a question what if the client ask a question and this is my 1s day. They are supposed to refer to the book/manual and let the client know that they are professionals. No one knows it is your 1st day. In other words they are taking advantage of the customer's lack of knowledge. Then the biggest thing they are supposed to do is to get you to sell you on you need to get the next training package. He turned down the job. he lost a lot of respect for Petsmart and their trainers after that. There are some trainers that have taken classes, attended seminars to make themselves better trainers. But of course they are the exception to the rule. There training comes from outside of their employment. I've had people that have their training there and they come to me only to find out their dog is not really trained. It is only surfaced trained. It will not respond correctly with even the slightest of distractions. I believe that there are some that are well trained. I just haven't run into them. The customers were happy with their training until they learned it should have been more.

[Jessika]

The method used it only as good as the trainer using it.

I will probably sport the highly unpopular opinion in that I do not believe training collars are all bad.

I DO, however, think they are very often misused by owners who are not properly trained in how to use them or who aren't rewarding for the correct/desirable behaviors, hence not getting results.

These are training TOOLS, not training solutions, and many owners seem to confuse the two. They are not meant to be a solution to your problem, but simply an aid to help the training process.