A thought-provoking question for everyone who loves animals

[Kirsten]

Industrial livestock farming is a horrible thing, without a doubt one of the most horrible ideas mankind came up with, so many people prefer to buy the meat of organically raised animals and eat it with a clear conscience because "these animals had a good life, ate healthy food and could breathe the free air"...

Yes, it's true that most of them had a much better life, compared to their poor relatives spending their lives in factory farming, but when it comes to the end, to the killing... what is fairer? Taking an animal's life that had a horrible existence full of suffering and deprivation? For these animals, death might be a relief, although you can see in countless videos that even these animals fear death, and that they cling desperately to their lives, no matter how miserable it was...
And then the animals on organic farms: Most of them have a life that's worth being lived, and yet this life will be taken from them way too soon, often by the hand of those who cared for them; whom they trusted. Now I'm asking you: What it crueler? Who got more to lose?

What do you think? I mean no offense, but I believe that this is something that deserves some thoughts...

[phesina]

Thank you, Kirsten, for posting this question. I've wondered the same thing myself. I don't have the answer.

I don't eat meat myself. But a huge lot of people do, and so there is the question, where does the meat come from and how does it get to you.

[Asiel]

I don't really have an answer to this but I would say it's kinder to destroy an animal who is not having a good life. At least this animal will finally be at peace.
Having said this, I am fast becoming turned off meat because of the horrors I've watched about how these animals are raised before slaughter. I have 2 kids who refuse to touch meat for the same reason. I didn't mind when it was farm animals butchered to feed a family or farm animals raised as they should be raised but not the way it's done today.

[kitten645]

Please see the documentary Food Inc. It makes you see what we consume on a different level. The cruelty factor is huge but if you are going to consume meat, you should consume organically, ethically raised meats. They aren't feed the hormones and chemicals factory farmed animals are. Supporting factory farming only promotes the continued abuse. Also read Food Matters by Mark Bittman. Enlightening.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

I like to think about it in terms of "harm reduction." I have been a vegetarian for 15 years. I know that what I am doing personally may not actually mean less production of meat, but I am personally trying to reduce harm. I guess the examples you gave above would be about reducing harm. Even if the animal ultimately dies, I think it's less cruel to allow the animal to live a somewhat natural life before that happens.

[pomtzu]

I have to admit that I am a meat eater, and I enjoy my steaks and pork chops and chicken, and I do not plan to give them up. I do not go by the meat counters in the stores, and think back to the origins of those packages of meat. However, I have seen videos of how these creatures are raised and slaughtered, and it is indeed horrific. I am 100% in support of more humane conditions in regard to how they are raised and slaughtered. There is no need for the cruelty that most of these animals are forced endure.

[Kirsten]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts here... And yes, I tend to agree that if you still eat meat, the meat from organically raised animals is the better choice, as it's healthier, and of a better quality.

But as far as I'm concerned, I have stopped eating meat almost 20 years ago. I don't want an animal to be killed because of me. However, I'm still buying meat in the form of cat food, and sometimes I'm feeling bad about it, but I have to admit I'm selfish here: I love cats too much to live without them.

Lately, I'm even tending to go vegan (no eggs, no dairy products), even though I don't think I'll be able to do that 100%.

[IRescue452]

You make a good point about which animal will welcome death more. But the cow in the poor conditions shouldn't be there in the first place. Eat meat from those conditions and you're just putting another cow in its place.

PS, I lol at how I see chicken labeled as 100% vegetarian (corn) fed. As if that's a good thing! Many consumers fall for it but not me. Chickens aren't vegetarians, they eat little bugs and seeds and whatever they pick off the ground.

[pomtzu]

Just a question out of curiosity for those that don't eat meat because of your opposition to an animal being killed for you to consume.

What about leather made from the hides of these animals? Do you not have any shoes, handbags, belts, jackets, gloves, etc made of leather? I once had a co-worker who would not eat meat because an animal had to be killed in order for her to do so, yet she thought nothing of sporting fancy leather handbags and shoes.

[mrspunkysmom]

I don't know that the mass production of meat is any more economical than farm raised animals. We throw so much of it away because it is just not good.

I've thinking about going organic and using an independent butcher because it just makes more sense.

As far as the meat and killing of animals. We are omnivores. It is possible to get protein from none meat sources, but every source has its pros and cons.

And the carnivores help keep the herbivores in check.
I think the question we need to ask ourselves is, "Are we respecting that animals life by using the whole animal?" "Or is it needless killing, just waste?"

[Alysser]

I agree with Pomtzu, 100% on the fact that no animal should suffer at mercy of food production. It really is sad. Currently, I don't buy the groceries brought into my house either and I'm pretty sure my mom really doesn't care about where the meat comes from. She isn't going to buy organic and I am not going to be able to give up meat, as selfish as that may sound, I'm just being honest. As far as when I move out and get my own place, I will have to research further on the issue then.

As for people saying they've seen Food Inc and videos of slaughter, well I can safely say these sources are biased beyond belief. Now, let me start by saying, YES I am sure abuse happens in this industry. I think any situation with an animal can have abuse involved somehow. From someone who was made to watch Food Inc by a teacher who was an environmental nut-job, I can tell you it is biased. Of course the makers of the film are going to travel to farms that abuse animals and have shitty conditions. No doubt about it. As for the videos, have you ever traced the source? Most likely for PETA or ALF or some other nutcase organization. These videos are usually out-dated and used over and over again. Of course they're disgusting, but the fact is, the were probably filmed over a decade ago. Believe it or not, things have changed for these animals dramatically and I sure hope that this good continues. Please don't support things like PETA, sure they have a good forefront, I mean who wouldn't want to save cute animals right? Now watch some videos on the hypocrisy of those nuts. :p

As far as animal skins for material items. I have 1 leather jacket. I want another one but since I can't afford anything right now as a poor college student that isn't going to happen. I don't have leather shoes, purses, etc. I don't see the need for it. I don't wear make-up, so the animal testing issue doesn't phase me (for cosmetic items anyway). As for shampoos and the like, I always buy "not tested on animals" labeled ones.

[Taz_Zoee]

I grew up out in the country where we raised cows, pigs and chickens.......to eat. I watched them be slaughtered. I was young. I don't know that I could do that now. Well, I guess I could.
Our rule of thumb was we didn't name the animals that would be in our freezer. We had a cow (Babe) and a pig (Bobbie Sue) that were pets. They lived out their lives and we did not eat them.
I try not to think of what the steak was before it was seasoned and cooked up for me. I do not think I could give up meat. I mean, if I had to I could.

I also wear leather. I have a leather jacket, vest, chaps and boots for riding the motorcycle.

I am a horrible person. Just writing this out makes me feel like crap! How can I be such an animal lover? Ok, enough of this. I need to not think about this anymore.

I have nothing against people who do not eat meat or animal products. In fact...more power to them. I wish I had that much will power. What I don't like is the people that preach about it or throw it in your face. Luckily I've never encountered these kinds of people in my life and I hope I never do.

[wombat2u2004]

What ARE you all talking about ???
Meat comes from the supermarket. :D

[Pembroke_Corgi]

What about leather made from the hides of these animals? Do you not have any shoes, handbags, belts, jackets, gloves, etc made of leather? I once had a co-worker who would not eat meat because an animal had to be killed in order for her to do so, yet she thought nothing of sporting fancy leather handbags and shoes.
No, I don't wear leather or buy leather products. However, it is very difficult sometimes to find shoes in particular.

[pomtzu]

What I don't like is the people that preach about it or throw it in your face. Luckily I've never encountered these kinds of people in my life and I hope I never do.

Cindy - this is exactly where I was going when I mentioned my co-worker. She preached constantly, to the point of being obnoxious. When I asked her why she felt it was acceptable to wear the leather but not eat the meat, she always came back with a smart-a$$ answer like - "well why throw the hide away when it can be used"? In other words, she felt it was okay to wear an animal that was slaughtered - just not eat it!!! Double standards in action.

And yes - I wear/use leather too. Jacket, shoes, handbags, wallet, belts. If they are available, then why not buy them since they last practically forever, whereas the synthetics fall apart in no time flat.

And no one here preaches - I respect everyone's decisions and opinions. :)

[Kirsten]

I agree that preaching doesn't help. It only annoys people and makes them more anti-veggie... On the other hand, I don't like it when people make stupid remarks about me being veggie either. Or when they say things like "meat is the only REAL food".

As for wearing leather... I do have two or three pairs of leather shoes, but will try to get more synthetic ones for the future. Those I already have will be worn for many years, so at least they are not "wasted", but I'm feeling kind of guilty for having them. I don't buy any other leather products, or anything made of fur. And as I have recently learned about this very cruel act of mulesing, I think I won't buy any more whool products either.

What I find interesting is that over the last few years, the awareness for the vegetarian lifestyle is constantly growing. Not only for ethical reasons, but also for ecological and environmental ones. I had no idea how many resources are actually needed for just one kilogramm of meat, how much water, energy, and land (mainly to grow these animals' food) is used for it, not to forget the CO² pollution also. I'm not preaching everyone should go veggie - but if people in the western world would just start eating less meat, people in other parts of the world woudln't be starving. There were some interesting documentions on this subject on tv recently, and this article sums it up:
Environmental impact of meat production (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_meat_production)

[wombat2u2004]

but if people in the western world would just start eating less meat, people in other parts of the world woudln't be starving.

??????? Why would eating less meat help the starving millions ???

[Karen]

??????? Why would eating less meat help the starving millions ???

The theory is that the grain used to feed the animals would feed many times the number of people the meat of that animal can feed.

[wombat2u2004]

The theory is that the grain used to feed the animals would feed many times the number of people the meat of that animal can feed.

Right.

[Lady's Human]

The theory is that the grain used to feed the animals would feed many times the number of people the meat of that animal can feed.

The problem isn't food. The problem is the warlords who keep their people from getting the food. Control the food, control the population. Just like in the Ukraine under Uncle Joe, the food is there, people just aren't allowed to get to it.

[Kirsten]

The theory is that the grain used to feed the animals would feed many times the number of people the meat of that animal can feed.

Yup, that pretty much sums it up. Thanks, Karen. :)



The problem isn't food. The problem is the warlords who keep their people from getting the food. Control the food, control the population. Just like in the Ukraine under Uncle Joe, the food is there, people just aren't allowed to get to it.

I admit that half the world eating less meat wouldn't solve all the problems in this world. There are more reasons for starvation/poverty, as the one you pointed out. However, I think that reducing the meat consumption on this planet would be a step into the right direction...

[wombat2u2004]

I admit that half the world eating less meat wouldn't solve all the problems in this world. There are more reasons for starvation/poverty, as the one you pointed out. However, I think that reducing the meat consumption on this planet would be a step into the right direction...

I don't know if it would Kirsten.
Altho, the environmentalist who tells us that by chopping down 3 trees a week in the State of Oregon will eventually destroy the planet would probably disagree with me.
Where I live, on the New England tablelands....it's cattle country. And it is a vast area. Cattle farmers here run their cattle on farms anywhere from 1000 to 20,000 acres in size. The area is rich, has good rainfall, and produces top quality beef, but because of the climate, the area is no good at all for cropping of any description.
So we all stop eating beef, the economy collapses. Who is going to feed us ??
The Sudanese ? Maybe Robert Mugabe could send us some pizzas.

Let me tell you a little story (I think I have written this before on PT).
My next door neighbour Rob sells and exports farm machinery to Sudan. He goes there two or three times a year to show the locals how to use this stuff (not that the locals are very interested in learning...buy hey...they are getting paid for it and get all of this free machinery at the expense of all of those nice people in the UN). So he comes back after the trips and comes into my place for a beer (I know, I know...here's me and him having a beer that we can afford because we have both worked very hard in our life) and he complains about the Sudanese. His very words ??? "They have to be the most laziest people on the planet John, they won't work, they wouldn't work if their lives depended on it. I have to do everything, unpack all of the equipment, put it together, everything, while they all sit around and watch."
And more..."So disappointing John, I took a dozen new tractors to Sudan last year, have a guess where they are now ? I seen them only last week, every one of them, sitting in the fields just rusting away."
So what do you think the real problem is here Kirsten ?? Any ideas ??? Penny starting to drop yet ???

My take on this matter ?? You want to feed these people ??? Fine. But in doing so you will create a bigger monster.
Firstly you will destroy our own economies, secondly you will set a precedent that will never end, you will will simply have to feed these people forever and ever, and in doing so, these people will want more and more and more.
We give them the technology, we give them the equipment, we give them the money....but why use it ?? It's easier to sit in front of their mud hut with hand extended.

[Bonny]

The theory is that the grain used to feed the animals would feed many times the number of people the meat of that animal can feed.

The grain that is fed to animals like hay, soybeans & field corn is not meant to be eaten by humans. The growing season for hay, corn, soybeans is short so it is what is grown in the corn, bean, & hay belt areas. The land gets to rest a good 7 months out of the year & the waste from the animals is used to regenerate the soil. It is a give & take situation & stewards of the land do care about the land & the animals to which they are deemed responsible.

Norman Borlaug developed highly yielding crop varieties that has helped avert famines worldwide.

[wombat2u2004]

The grain that is fed to animals like hay, soybeans & field corn is not meant to be eaten by humans. The growing season for hay, corn, soybeans is short so it is what is grown in the corn, bean, & hay belt areas. The land gets to rest a good 7 months out of the year & the waste from the animals is used to regenerate the soil. It is a give & take situation & stewards of the land do care about the land & the animals to which they are deemed responsible.

Norman Borlaug developed highly yielding crop varieties that has helped avert famines worldwide.

That's right. When natural grass is not growing well around here (which isn't very often), the cattle are fed "Nuts". Nuts are made from salt, mollasses and lucerne (alfalfa)....they taste like crap, but the cattle love them.

[Cat Daddy]

Industrial livestock farming is a horrible thing, without a doubt one of the most horrible ideas mankind came up with, so many people prefer to buy the meat of organically raised animals and eat it with a clear conscience because "these animals had a good life, ate healthy food and could breathe the free air"...

Yes, it's true that most of them had a much better life, compared to their poor relatives spending their lives in factory farming, but when it comes to the end, to the killing... what is fairer? Taking an animal's life that had a horrible existence full of suffering and deprivation? For these animals, death might be a relief, although you can see in countless videos that even these animals fear death, and that they cling desperately to their lives, no matter how miserable it was...
And then the animals on organic farms: Most of them have a life that's worth being lived, and yet this life will be taken from them way too soon, often by the hand of those who cared for them; whom they trusted. Now I'm asking you: What it crueler? Who got more to lose?

What do you think? I mean no offense, but I believe that this is something that deserves some thoughts...

Just my 2 cents.

I think the question can be summed up this way.
Is it better for animals to be raised humanely and live there lives without suffering to be harvested in the least painless way by those who cared for them, or to be raised in horrible conditions and spend their entire lives suffering then be harvested by those who have no concern over whether it is painful for the animal or not. Note that I purposely used the word harvest to emphasize these animals are being raise for food.
When put this way, I would gladly exchange a few moments of pain at the end for a, albeit short, happy life.

My thoughts on meat. Humans are omnivores, which of course means we need meat as well as vegetables to live healthy lives. Yes, we eat too much meat, but it is a neccessary evil for proper nutrition. I am speaking of fish and poultry as well as beef and pork etc.

Earliest man also relied on animals for their pelts for clothing.

JMO. Thanks for reading.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

I have sort of an odd slant on the eating meat thing. I don't eat much red meat but do eat chicken and turkey. I hate that anything has to die for food but I don't kill them for food. They are going to be killed whether I eat them or not. If they don't get eaten, they will have died in vain and given their life for nothing. I try to remember to thank them for their sacrifice then enjoy them. :love:

[dab_20]

As for people saying they've seen Food Inc and videos of slaughter, well I can safely say these sources are biased beyond belief. Now, let me start by saying, YES I am sure abuse happens in this industry. I think any situation with an animal can have abuse involved somehow. From someone who was made to watch Food Inc by a teacher who was an environmental nut-job, I can tell you it is biased. Of course the makers of the film are going to travel to farms that abuse animals and have shitty conditions. No doubt about it. As for the videos, have you ever traced the source? Most likely for PETA or ALF or some other nutcase organization. These videos are usually out-dated and used over and over again. Of course they're disgusting, but the fact is, the were probably filmed over a decade ago. Believe it or not, things have changed for these animals dramatically and I sure hope that this good continues. Please don't support things like PETA, sure they have a good forefront, I mean who wouldn't want to save cute animals right? Now watch some videos on the hypocrisy of those nuts. :p


Agreed 100%.


Growing up in Minnesota, I grew up between a dairy cow farm and a farm that had cows raised for meet. Both of them had very happy, well treated cows.

I personally think animals should always be treated with respect. They may be dieing early, but that does not mean they should live a life of abuse just because they may want to "die more". Any animal, including humans, whether living or horrible life or a happy one, does NOT want to die. It is physiologically ingrained in our brains to survive at all costs.
However, I personally wouldn't become vegetarian for this cause. I do think it is okay to kill and eat an animal if it is all done HUMANELY. We are omnivores, just like thousands of other species on this planet. We are meant to eat animal products. Just look at our physiology. We may not have canine teeth or big claws, our intelligence replaces those. However, our eyes are located on the front of our faces. Think about it, all predators have eyes in front of their faces. Plant eaters have eyes on the sides of their face. Back to the point...
We should not waste lives, however. We shouldn't be killing animals in massive amounts and having meat rot. We shouldn't be killing some animals for leather and others for meat. We should use every part of the animal, just like other animals do, so not to waste more lives.

I am not saying people shouldn't be vegetarian if that is their choice. They're doing it for a good cause. Animal proteins and fats can be replaced by beans and fatty things like nuts and avocados. It's usually a more healthy choice, too. If we do choose to eat meat, we should make sure the meat we eat comes from good, humane sources.