Serious advice wanted...

[Cookiebaker]

OK, here's the deal...when we first got Malone I was (and still am!) very committed to taking him to training school and learning with him. I did a bunch of research, and there are only two places that are remotely close. We signed up for 4 weeks of puppy training that ended mid-August as I recall. Our trainer knows so much, and is phenominal(sp???) with dogs. They respond really well to him, but we aren't having the same success that he has (probably due to lack of experience). His big thing is training WITHOUT treats. He says that in the long run, our dog will listen to us and want to please "his master" rather than react to the bribe of the treat.

Anyway, to make a long story short, he told us there would be follow-up training starting in the end of September. Here it is almost mid-November, and he still is not coming thru with a follow up class. We have started his method of training, and I am really hesitant to switch to somebody else's method, especially as anywhere else I go, they will use treats, and I'm afraid of mixed messages. Besides that, we are getting to the end of our rope...Malone *hates* training sessions, and lays down on his back and won't listen. Errrgh. Though if we aren't "formally training" he listens pretty well. I have followed up with the trainer several times, and he keeps saying that it will be a few more weeks.

Do you think that we should keep holding out, or is it time to move on to another trainer that will actually be there for us??? Please any advice would be so appreciated.

[wolf_Q]

Ok this is my opinion, and just an opinion. What is so bad about treats? Especially with a puppy! If Malone is *hating* the training sessions, there is something wrong! With my puppy class we used tons of treats, and always made training fun. You can't make the sessions too long, and you should always have a bit of play afterwards. Malone should enjoy training, and enjoy pleasing you. Yes, I think that treats should be phased out and only every once in a while as they get older, but I don't see a problem with using them for puppies. Nebo got treats for everything in his puppy class, but it did not make him ignore commands without treats. It was a bit hard to get him to do stuff w/o seeing food at first, but he's fine with it now. He will do *any* trick without seeing a treat.

Did you guys ever start into using clickers for the training? What kind of praises did you do? They had us say "Yes!" at first then move onto the clickers (only for teaching new things).

I think choosing a trainer is up to you, but maybe you could start asking around and finding out how other people train, and see what method works best for you...and Malone. :)

[Cookiebaker]

Thanks for the input, Amy, I really appreciate it. No, we don't use clickers either. We do an excercise called tuning in...and basically it is to teach the dog to listen to your voice & different tones. A deep tone means "baaaad" and high tone is "happy". We use lavish praise for when they are good, and try to ignore bad behaviour or use a very low tone. We have seen a lot of improvement and he listens pretty well...until it is time for our daily 15-20 minutes session. I really think that this "method" would work if we kept up with it, but I am having trouble carrying on with it by myself without help from the trainer. Isn't that what he's supposed to be there for?? And the biggest thing is, I am afraid that if we do switch over to clickers or treats, there will be no going back to this method. I don't have a problem with giving treats, but it really conflicts with this method of trying to get your dog to zone in on your voice and hand signals...with a treat, he zones in on just getting the cookie and not trying to please it's master, so to speak. Another reason that is keeping me back from changing is that our vet *highly* recommends this trainer. He is pretty well-known around here and I have heard lots of good comments about him and his methods. The other trainer is one that I don't have recommendations from anybody. But the other half of me is getting more & more frustrated because having a class helps so much in keeping up with training. It gives a goal to work for, rather than trying to amble along aimlessly by ourselves.

But I may start asking around...there's no harm in asking and it's not committing to anything.

[sasvermont]

I do not own a dog. My close friends have a Springer Spaniel and they trained her themselves. They use treats, but the catch is that the treat is really her regular dog food, delivered as a treat. She eats it so darn fast that she just doesn't care. She is slim, happy, highly trained and was first trained to the crate. This may not help you, but I do believe that most folks can train dogs themselves, if the have the tolerance and knowledge. Of course you have to stick with your program.

Abby, the Springer is smart, but highly trained to anyone who takes her. She even "asks" before she eats, gets up on any furniture and goes out. She knows so much and is SO good on a leash. They were very, very consistant with her and it has paid off for sure. She is a pleasure to be around.

Here is what she can do: sit, stay, roll over, paw, army crawl, speak, speak softly, get your....she knows all her toys by name....

She is one sweet and highly trained doggie.

Keep us posted.
:)

P. S. By the way, there is someone with this dog all day long and I think that makes a big difference! This situation is not always possible for most of us who work away from home 5 days a week!

[aly]

I agree with Amy.. except the clicker part. I don't really like clickers because you always have your voice ready but you have to worry about having a clicker if you're teaching the dog something by "catching in the act". I really think there's nothing wrong with training with food. When I train, I sometimes use food as an award and sometimes petting or a favorite toy. I always praise and "yes!" is my mark word too.

[Cincy'sMom]

I sometimes use clickers, but them difficult to hold, when you also have treat, a leash etc. Instead I more often use a "bridge" or marker word, like "Yes" and no No reward mark like "try again" if they do not give the right behavior.
I also give lots of treats for a new behavior and the up the criteria. For example, Sadie knows "back" very well. At first she got lots of treats for taking one step backward. Now she may get a rat the third time she goes across the room backward. it varies. and treats don't have to be food, it can be a pet, permission to jump when that is not noramlly okay, a toy, a walk etc.

I would look into other trainers...just o see. Make sure his methods are really what you like best and which is more important to you...to stay with the same trainer or to keep Malone in training.

[wolf_Q]

Originally posted by aly
I agree with Amy.. except the clicker part. I don't really like clickers because you always have your voice ready but you have to worry about having a clicker if you're teaching the dog something by "catching in the act". I really think there's nothing wrong with training with food. When I train, I sometimes use food as an award and sometimes petting or a favorite toy. I always praise and "yes!" is my mark word too.

I don't use the clicker very often, just when teaching like a new trick. Nebo seems to catch onto it faster with the clicker. I also think its good to use verbal praise, petting, and toys as rewards.