London Riots (ETA post #23: Brits, please sign the petition to axe rioters' benefits)

[Miss Z]

Apologies, Karen, if this is better suited to the Dog House.

As you have likely seen from news reports, there is currently terrible rioting occurring in the UK cities of London, Birmingham and Liverpool, but predominantly London.

Businesses and homes have been torched, police and bystanders attacked and injured, the violence is out of control.

I've just heard from friends, and recently on national radio, that riots have started up in Camden, the area of London I live in when at university. Some of the local entertainment industries, which Camden is famous for, have apparently been smashed up and possibly looted. I have an empty flat ready to be moved into this week in Camden. Can't say I'm not worried...

I also have a close friend, and flatmate, who lives in Lewisham, one of the worst hit areas. I'm waiting to hear from her and hope she is OK.

I've met so many people who turn their noses up at London and spent a year defending what a great place it is to live as a student... now I only feel a sorrow for the hellhole it is portraying itself as.

Please, Pet Talk, keep the people of London in your thoughts tonight as these riots continue.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675

[Karen]

We have been thinking of you, and hoping you and all you love are okay! Stay safe, Zara, and don't be afraid to run if trouble heads your way. Those long legs gotta be good for something, right? ;) Better safe than sorry. Sending you hugs, stay away from the thugs!

[chocolatepuppy]

Thoughts and prayers going out to the people of London. Stay safe Zara.

[moosmom]

Zara,

You will be in my prayers, honey. Be safe and please let us know if your flatmate is okay.

:love::love: and hugs,

Donna and fur crew

[Freedom]

I'm glad you posted, Zara, as I immediately thought of you, but wasn't sure if you were back at school yet.

With the Olympics coming up, this is really quite sad indeed. Folks have so much to be looking forward to, there.

And at least on our news, they can't quite figure out why all the anger. Yes, there was a police shooting, but the opportunists seem to have taken over. :(

[Asiel]

My friend sent me some pictures and a news video about this. I could hardly believe it, Britain is usually so laid back - but they have been having some trouble lately. I found this so sad , but terrifying also.

[Barbara]

I can't believe I have been in London last week from Thursday to Saturday and didn't notice a thing- of course it was Saturday when it all started. I think it is horrible- it happens in so many European cities: Paris, Copenhagen, London. Things are certainly difficult in the world right now.

[Miss Z]

Thank you, everyone. Thankfully, I am not in London for now, and am safe back home in Lancashire.

I'm so shocked that Camden, a town that I've really come to love, could have been the scene of such violence. I kept an eye on news reports last night into the early hours, and it seems police managed to contain it in the High Street at least, so as far as I know, no damage has been caused to the veterinary college, or further afield where my flat is situated.

My flatmate is safe, also. She managed to get home from work in central London in time before things really kicked off, and her family stayed indoors. She described how she could hear the police sirens and news helicopters for hours into the night.

The riots spread to other cities last night - Bristol and Nottingham have also had rioting and I've also heard from a few friends that things are beginning to get ugly in Manchester, which is a bit close to home, although nothing on the news about that yet.

Here is the latest report:



Rioting has spread across London on a third night of violence, with unrest flaring in other English cities.

An extra 1,700 police officers were deployed in London, where shops were looted and buildings were set alight.

Birmingham, Liverpool, Nottingham and Bristol also saw violence.
The prime minister has returned early from his holiday to discuss the unrest, which first flared on Saturday after a peaceful protest in Tottenham over the fatal shooting of a man by police.

At least 400 people have been arrested following a wave of "copycat criminal activity" across London over the past three days, the Met Police said. More than 69 people have been charged with various offences.

Three people are being questioned on suspicion of attempted murder after a police officer was injured by a car in Brent, north-west London, while trying to stop suspected looters.

Met Deputy Assistant Commissioner Steven Kavanagh said it was a "shocking and appalling morning for London to wake up to".

"The Met was stretched beyond belief in a way that it has never experienced before," he told BBC Breakfast.

When asked at what stage he would consider bringing in the Army, he responded by saying "all options are being considered".

On Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/metpoliceuk), Scotland Yard said: "In the next 24 hours there will be 13,000 police officers on duty in London."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14450248

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I am just.... seething over this. :mad: :(

I actually feel embarassed of being British right now, or indeed, I should say English. We've shown that we've got a country full of morons. Looters have actually been using social networking sites to show off their plunder - I mean, how thick can you get?

The vast majority don't know what they're rioting for and have taken advantage of a cause they probably don't care about anyway.

May they all feel the back hand of the law.

[blue]

Wasnt the "victim" of the police shooting killed for shooting at the police?

[Medusa]

Zara, my friend Clare who lives in Essex but goes to university in London has been updating me on this. She's furious as well. You should feel no shame; it happens everywhere in every country, especially now. Having visited London last year for a couple of weeks, I can honestly say that it's a most wonderful city. I had the time of my life. We're just glad that you're safe. :)

[pomtzu]

The vids I was viewing on t.v. this morning, were shocking. The senseless destruction is almost beyond belief. Prayers for all those in harms way. Please stay safe Zara.

[happylabs]

I saw some of this on the news. It is shocking and very scary.

Let's all pray for peace.

[cassiesmom]

Please, Pet Talk, keep the people of London in your thoughts tonight as these riots continue.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675


Absolutely will do! London is such a wonderful city, it is very sad to see this happening.

[lvpets2002]

:confused: Yes I saw this on the news.. I am still confused of what started it all.. Sounds like to many young thuggss with too much time on their hands.. :( Yes it is all so sad buttt yet so disgusting..

[phesina]

I heard on the radio today that looters are bragging and showing off their hauls on social-media sites.

Marvels of modern technology! Barf.

Prayers and wishes that these disturbances are quelled soon.

[Karen]

I did hear that some young Londoners were banding together to clean up after the riots, which is nice.

[moosmom]

What Medusa said. We're SO glad you're safe!!

All this rioting and looting reminds me of when Martin Luther King was murdered. My Dad was a news photographer and was assigned to take pictures of all the looting and rioting in the streets of Hartford, CT. He was out there at night with a hard hat on, shooting pictures of all the devastation. My Mom and I were up very late, worrying about him and his safety. Got some great pictures, but the outcome wasn't pretty.

I heard on the news that these riots were caused by someone on either FB or Twitter, insighting a riot. I have never seen so much crime and devastation in my life. I'm totally confused.

Take care of yourself, Zara!!

[Marigold2]

So glad you are ok.
But London that beautiful and elegant city, the most enchanting in all the world being looted. It is painful to think of.

[ChrisH]

Please be aware that it is not just happening in London, in fact it seems to have quietened down there.

UK riots: Trouble erupts in English cities (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14460554)

Live:UK riots (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675)

Karen, yes, people, of all ages, have come together to clean up, not just in London either.

England: Twitter and Facebook users plan clean up (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14456857)

[Miss Z]

Thanks for the positive thoughts, everyone. Still safe, and so are my nearest and dearest.

As Chris said, the copycat violence has been ongoing, sadly. Yes, London was better last night, after 16,000 police officers were drafted in to patrol the streets. There were isolated incidents but no where near on the scale of previous nights.

Last night, Manchester and Salford were attacked, which was a little close to home. The Arndale shopping centre saw violence, which made me wonder how so many more people weren't injured, being in a contained area. The Arndale, and Deepdale and Piccadilly Gardens areas of Manchester are particularly popular in the school holidays with groups of young teenagers out for the day with their friends. I know, since I used to do just the same! I would have been pretty scared at, say, 13, to end up caught up in a riot.

Gloucester and Leicester also saw incidents - never thought of Gloucester as a bad area before... :(

It seems the whole country is watching in disbelief and disgust as this violence continues. I think there's going to be a lot of anger when all this blows over. And a lot of backtracking to do for Big Dave (concerning his 'let's cut the police forces' idea).


Wasnt the "victim" of the police shooting killed for shooting at the police?

Supposedly so. The news is so wrapped up in the riots, the information coming through about Mark Duggan can seem a little confusing. The last I heard, he supposedly exchanged fire with the police from a minicab, and was shot in the chest and killed. An inquest is ongoing as to whether he did actually fire the gun. The gun has an empty cartridge, but a bullet lodged in a police radio is not consistant with the type of firearm, and is probably from a police issued gun.

There's clearly been some sort of balls-up, but no excuse for the violence seen, 'justified' as a middle finger to the police and its treatment of black people (what??) :(



I did hear that some young Londoners were banding together to clean up after the riots, which is nice.


Ah, I'd be down there like a shot if I could get it organised round my veterinary placements. I was talking with a university friend earlier, and we agreed that when Camden in particular was attacked, it felt like a personal insult. It'd be great to band together with the people of London to show these thugs that they can't break our communities. It might also give the students back a bit of kudos after the protests of November 2010, the damage of which I saw first hand.

Once again, thanks for the continued well wishes, both here and through PMs. I will of course keep everyone updated - although hopefully the situation is coming under some degree of control by now.

[Alysser]

I've been seeing alot of videos on the news and on the web, mostly from Tumblr. It really is disgusting what people do. They're destroying their own cities for in such a senseless way. It's one thing to FIGHT for something you believe in but this is ridiculous. :( I saw a post about how a Police Dog was seriously injured after being attacked by a group of rioters. It's a sad state when a group of people will attack an innocent animal (and innocent people, businesses, etc.) with such senseless acts of violence. They should all be ashamed of themselves, really. :(

Did you hear from everyone you know in the area, Zara?

[Miss Z]

Did you hear from everyone you know in the area, Zara?

Thanks, Alyssa. Yep, they, and their property, have escaped unscathed thus far, and we're hoping it stays that way. :)

I was almost too embarassed to post some of these, and I'm not sure if the video links will work for everyone, but just to give you an idea of the 'level' of people we're talking here... :rolleyes:

Youths telling a reporter that they'll keep rioting, because no-one's going to stop them:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm

(He was a bit out with his estimate of 10 arrests... try 1000. Let's hope it's soon 1001, eh?)

Some drunk girls describing the chaos as 'brilliant', and just about remembering what party our prime minister belongs to:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

Possibly some of the worst footage and currently one of the most popular clips on the BBC I believe - an injured Malaysian student is mugged by thugs who pretend to help him:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065

And one of the saddest stories; three men who were killed in a hit and run attack whilst defending their property in Birmingham.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14471405

I also saw some footage on BBC News 24 of a man who owns a jewellery shop which had been destroyed and looted. You could hear the emotion in his voice as he struggled to make sense of the damage. I'll keep looking for it and post it if I find it.

On the flipside - there is apparently a national petition to axe benefits to caught and convicted rioters. No people who have such disrespect for their government and communities deserve handouts from them. I would LOVE to see this come to fruition. A real life lesson in not biting the hand that feeds you! ;)

[Miss Z]

The country now seems to be returning to normal, thank goodness. Yet, now comes the debate as to why this happened, the excuses, and the finger-pointing.

I am getting so infuriated watching the news. As the heat dies down, so reporters are getting the view from the 'other side', and interviewing the people who either condone the violence or sympathise with it.

I watched a newsclip the other night that made my blood boil. It showed a standoff between a mother from what was described as a disadvantaged community, and the owner of a pharmacy which had been damaged and looted.

Mostly, the clip showed this woman being rude to this man as she defended the young people who were rioting. She said it was down to the fact that there weren't enough community centres to give these kids something to do, and in her words 'what else were they supposed to do?'. She finished her little speech by telling the pharmacy owner, who was quite rightly shocked at her comments, that it was people like him who were to blame, and to 'shut up and jog on'. This she said in front of her young children.

People like her disgust me no end. If she is so self-righteous that she has the caption 'mother' under her name in the news report, then perhaps she should bloody well start acting like a mother and do things with her kids herself instead of leaving them to run amock and expecting the community to provide. That way, perhaps they would learn some family values that would lead to some decency and respect.

I'm also sick of the phrase 'people caught up in the riots' (used to describe those who were doing the rioting, as opposed to citizens who became surrounded by the riots as you might expect). I'm sorry, they made the conscious decision to riot. The excuse that people did what they did because everyone else was doing it, is just pathetic, and I believe once again shows the 'level' of these people.

It's more heartening to hear of other mothers who have seen pictures on the news, social media, or otherwise, of their children rioting and marched them straight to the nearest police station. Sadly, that kind of parent appears to be in the minority.

Not that it's only been kids involved in this mess, but they are the main concern to the nation right now, since it is so shocking that kids barely out of primary school must feel so little for their cities and this country.

For once, I really support our Prime Minister at this time. I just watched an interview with him on our local news, and quite frankly I am elated that he doesn't pussyfoot around trying to be PC about the reasons why people rioted. He doesn't believe that it was an uprising of an underclass disgusted at an unfair government. I don't believe that the general public buy that one either. It was a bunch of selfish, stupid individuals who saw an opportunity to cause trouble for their own personal gain, and more such individuals across the country who were dense enough to follow suit.

One of the questions in this interview was regarding convicted rioters losing their council housing (housing offered by local councils to poorer residents at a fraction of rental costs the average citizen pays). DC was asked that surely he thought embracing these people in the community would do more good than throwing them out of it, and that this proposal was unfair. His response was that they should have thought about that before they showed their disrespect for the taxpayers in the community that fund their housing. Damn right.

Meanwhile, the e-petition, to stop people who have been convicted in connection with the riots receiving state benefits, has more than 150,000 signatures. This would apply to all who have received a sentence, including those whose sentence is non-custodial, i.e. those who would still receive government handouts.

I have now been able to sign it, and urge any other Brits and UK residents to sign it too. No-one who shows such a lack of respect for their government, and the tax-payers of this nation, deserves to be funded by them.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337

(I think the spelling mistake is testament to the hurried fury in which it was made :p).

/rant

[ChrisH]

... (housing offered by local councils to poorer residents at a fraction of rental costs the average citizen pays).
Regardless of whether or not rioters should be evicted from their council housing, I would like to take issue with you in regard to your apparent view on council housing.

Council houses were built and operated by local councils to supply uncrowded, well built homes on secure tenancies to primarily working class people at reasonable rents.

It is not offered to 'poorer residents', a vast amount of council house tenants are decent hard working people. In fact it is not 'offered' at all, it has to be applied for and can be by anyone.

Also, the rent charged is reasonable but not 'at a fraction of rental costs the average citizen pays' as you have stated.

[ChrisH]

Rioters family first to be kicked out (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024605/UK-riots-First-family-kicked-council-house-sons-looting.html)

The middle class 'rioters' revealed: the millionaires daughter, the aspiring musician and the organic chef, all in the dock. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025068/UK-riots-Middle-class-rioters-revealed-including-Laura-Johnson-Natasha-Reid-Stefan-Hoyle.html)

[Miss Z]

Chris,

I would never, ever, dispute the fact that the vast majority of council house residents are hard-working and decent. I'm a little hurt that you would assume I think otherwise.

I'll grant that my use of 'offered' was wrong. I understand that council house has to be applied for and I sent out the wrong impression - that was a mistake on my part.

I'm right in thinking, though, that one is refused a council house if one has serious behavioural offences? And that anti-social behaviour, it is made clear, results in eviction?

As for prices, all I can say is that they seem to be considerably lower than average rents in my area. Perhaps indeed that is a reasonable rent for the housing here, and prices are different elsewhere. Personally, I find many rental prices very unreasonable (and I won't even go into how much my London flat sucks out my bank balance every week!).

Thank you for posting those articles. I find this quote sums up my feelings well:


'Most residents on our housing estates are decent law-abiding citizens who will have been sickened at the scenes they witnessed on their TV screens this week. Many will have seen their places of work trashed at the hands of these rioters. As much as anything else we owe it to them to send out a strong signal that this kind of violence will not be tolerated.'

I’ve been debating this on facebook too – I think the decent folks who receive benefits, council housing, whatever, would be appalled to think that those who have rioted, and shown such lack of care towards their communities, are entitled to the same level of help as them. When I worked in the charity shop, plenty of people I got to know well only bought their clothes from us, because they couldn’t afford high street prices. Would they thus go and smash up the big brand stores, out of spite? No, since they have dignity, something which is exclusive of class, IMO.
<O:p</O:p
As for the ‘middle class’ rioters, they deserve the book thrown at them just as hard. University students? Take away their student loans and grants. The children of well-off families – well even they receive some degree of child benefit, which I believe they should then lose for that child. There’s got to be ways of punishing these people that sends out a message of zero tolerance across all levels of society.
<O:p</O:p
All these people, regardless of their place in society, have demonstrated that they do not respect their fellow man, our communities, our police force, and our government, and have gone about their gripes in a most despicable and shameful way. Thus, I believe that none of them are owed anything by the society which they have chosen to spurn.<O:p</O:p

[ChrisH]

Chris, I would never, ever, dispute the fact that the vast majority of council house residents are hard-working and decent. I'm a little hurt that you would assume I think otherwise.

I'll grant that my use of 'offered' was wrong. I understand that council house has to be applied for and I sent out the wrong impression - that was a mistake on my part. Zara, I am sorry that you felt a little hurt, my intention was only to point out that not all council house tenants are the 'poorer residents' you wrote of. Of course there are a portion of such that are at the level of income, or non-income, that require aid in the form of housing benefit but, believe it or not, income is not a huge part of the criteria for obtaining a council house.
In my area they have a points system for allocation of council accommodation, the more points you have the higher the chance of obtaining a home. Even then it depends if there is one vacant that fits your needs, also the waiting lists are very long. You may find the following link about the points system interesting. http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/council/Housing/housing_applying/points.htm


I'm right in thinking, though, that one is refused a council house if one has serious behavioural offences? And that anti-social behaviour, it is made clear, results in eviction?
You are right, there is an exclusion policy.

Ineligible for Allocation (Exclusion)
Exclusion from the Housing Register may apply if you (or joint applicant) or a member of the household is guilty of serious unacceptable behaviour at the time of application, for which Housing Services have or could have obtained an Outright Possession Order.

This behaviour can include:
· Rent Arrears outstanding
· Nuisance or annoyance caused by family members
· Conviction for using a property for illegal or immoral purposes
We will check with relevant organisations and people about any unacceptable behaviour. If your application can be accepted onto the Register after this investigation, we will advise you by letter. However, if it is considered that exclusion should apply, we will pass a formal report to the Exclusion Panel, which is made up of Council Officers. We will advise you in writing giving the reason if the Panel decide that you are to be excluded from the Register. You can be excluded from the Housing Register for an indefinite period, but will have the opportunity to ask for a review if behaviour has improved or changed.

Again, yes, eviction can take place for anti-social behaviour. This link contains the information. Tenancy Enforcement (http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/council/Housing/TenancyEnforcement.htm) You will need to scroll down to the bottom to open in a pdf or other document reader to access it in its entirety.


As for prices, all I can say is that they seem to be considerably lower than average rents in my area. Perhaps indeed that is a reasonable rent for the housing here, and prices are different elsewhere. Personally, I find many rental prices very unreasonable (and I won't even go into how much my London flat sucks out my bank balance every week!).
I wouldn't argue that the rents for council houses are a lot lower than for private property but disagree that they are 'a fraction' as your previous post stated.

All these people, regardless of their place in society, have demonstrated that they do not respect their fellow man, our communities, our police force, and our government, and have gone about their gripes in a most despicable and shameful way. Thus, I believe that none of them are owed anything by the society which they have chosen to spurn.
We have an accord on that.

[Miss Z]

Again, yes, eviction can take place for anti-social behaviour. This link contains the information. Tenancy Enforcement (http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/council/Housing/TenancyEnforcement.htm) You will need to scroll down to the bottom to open in a pdf or other document reader to access it in its entirety.


Thanks for the link - I see it does indeed state that severe cases of ASB result in eviction. Looks like we both would consider rioting to fall under that category. I suppose that, as it stands, the rule applies only when such persons commit ABH in their neighbourhood, rather than the larger community? Because in which case I can see how people would have an escape clause should they be threatened with losing their house... and all the more reason for something like the e-petition to force the government to be decisive about how convicted rioters should be punished.

Sorry I got a little pissy. Benefits, and by whom they are received, has always been a raw topic for me. My explanation of council housing was rushed, and I apologise if it caused any offence. :)

[wombat2u2004]

This guy has something interesting to say...hee hee

http://www.youtube.com/v/9pAC0YSmK0g?hd=1

[ChrisH]

Wom, I have to say I agree with most if not all of his rant.

Zara, something to inflame the rawness.

Give me charity money pleads mother-of-TEN who insists her £30,000-a-year benefits are 'not enough (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025296/30k-year-benefits-mother-Moira-Pearce-asks-charity-money.html)

She was also on 'This Morning'.
http://www.itv.com/this-morning/life/the-mother-of-ten-children/

In my opinion the benefit system needs a complete overhaul so that she and her ilk, both now and in the future, are not able to milk it the way they do.

There are many, many, deserving benefit recipients, the majority of whom are those who have fallen on hard times by no fault of their own, perhaps because of unemployment or bad health. In the case of the former, people who are trying their level best to be employed again and in the latter, those who would like nothing better than to earn their own living once again. These are who the system is meant for, not parasites such as the woman featured in the links above.

[lizbud]

Chris,

I read the article but the video can't be viewed by anyone outside the UK.

There are people just like the "mom of 10" in the US also. People who seem
to think the world owes them a living. It's unfortunate but true. I wonder if
that women grew up in a "charity kept" home? She looks healthy enough, she
should get a job & see how normal people EARN their money.

[phesina]

What I don't get is... 10 kids???!!!!!

Okay, so perhaps one was unexpected... but by the time #2 showed up, she should have figured out what was causing them to come along. Why the hell didn't she get sterilized then.. or at least gotten some decent birth control plan going?

I'm pretty much a "liberal" (dirty word these days).. but I think there is a lot to be said for having people on public assistance rendered incapable of reproducing, at least for that period of time. Okay, so we'll support you and your two kids while you (hopefully) start getting your life together.. but more kids?

Of course, the question then is, what happens to the additional kids?

[wombat2u2004]

Wom, I have to say I agree with most if not all of his rant.

He kind of gets to the basics of it, hey ??? ;)
But he's right in saying that their parents are partly responsible for their behaviour, and if the govt keeps throwing money at people like that, then why work ????

[wombat2u2004]

What I don't get is... 10 kids???!!!!!

Okay, so perhaps one was unexpected... but by the time #2 showed up, she should have figured out what was causing them to come along. Why the hell didn't she get sterilized then.. or at least gotten some decent birth control plan going?

I'm pretty much a "liberal" (dirty word these days).. but I think there is a lot to be said for having people on public assistance rendered incapable of reproducing, at least for that period of time. Okay, so we'll support you and your two kids while you (hopefully) start getting your life together.. but more kids?

Of course, the question then is, what happens to the additional kids?

I don't know what the situation is like in the USA, but here in Australia, the more kids you have, the more public assistance ya get....so they just keep having more and more kids. Why work ??? That's the way they look at it.
And it isn't just the poorer classes who live this way, my daughter had a friend in Ladies College who now has two kids, lives with some bloody hobo, and they both receive welfare. I just can't understand how a girl as intelligent as she is, after being put through a school that cost her parents a fortune, can just throw it all away and live the life she is living. It is just so beyond me, I just can't figure out why they do this.

[wombat2u2004]

What I don't get is... 10 kids???!!!!!

Maybe she was bored and didn't have anything else to do. :p:p

[phesina]

In the U.S. (the woman in ChrisH's link is British) you get more welfare money if you have more kids too, though I've heard that the increase is nowhere near the costs of raising an additional child. Still, I guess there are people here cranking them out like clockwork, too.

[Karen]

In the U.S. (the woman in ChrisH's link is British) you get more welfare money if you have more kids too, though I've heard that the increase is nowhere near the costs of raising an additional child. Still, I guess there are people here cranking them out like clockwork, too.

I think that varies state to state, Phesina.