Obama Ends The Ban On Gays In The Military

[NicoleLJ]

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-ends-gays-us-military-ban-205550221.html

"The Pentagon is expected to spend the next 60 days preparing the troops for the change, and ironing out legal and technical details, including how it will affect housing, military transfers and other health and social benefits.

In most cases, the guidelines require that gays and lesbians be treated like any other member of the military.There will be differences, however. Same sex partners will not get the same housing and other benefits as married couples. Instead, they are more likely to be treated like unmarried couples.

Once the repeal is final, service members can no longer be discharged for openly acknowledging they are gay. That is the key change. And those who have been discharged previously based solely on the gay ban may apply to re-enter the force.

Service members may also designate their same-sex partners as beneficiaries for insurance and other benefits — something they may have avoided earlier for fear it would cause their dismissal.

One of the thornier issues is gay marriage.

An initial move by the Navy earlier this year to train chaplains about same-sex civil unions in states where they are legal was shelved after more than five dozen Congress members objected."

Click on the link for the full article. It is a step in the right direction. There is still a lot that needs to be changed but it is a positive step forward.

[Lady's Human]

The military isn't a place for social engineering.

Note to the mayor, this should be in the doghouse.

[blue]

Buying votes in the next election is all this is. The flamboyant and militant gays will only push for more now.

[lizbud]

The flamboyant and militant gays will only push for more now.


Yeah, like equal treatment under the law.

[Randi]

That's great news! Certainly a step in the right direction. I like B. Obama more and more - how lucky you are to have a man like him as your President! :)

[Edwina's Secretary]

Yeah, like equal treatment under the law.

Indeed! The audacity of these people. Wanting to serve their country. Who do they think they are?

[Lady's Human]

Thank God I'm retired.

This is going to be messy, the military will have a nightmare of a time with this, but everything will be hunky dory in the press.

Careers and lives will end because of this fiasco.

[NicoleLJ]

Yes it will be messy at times. But the same thing happened to the first African American deep sea divers for the navy. And the first African Americans to fly in the air force in their own units. People had the same arguements then to stop them doing what they did as you are stating now. In those cases and many others it helped to change how African Americans were viewed in those areas. Which is what I think will happen here as well.

Change is never easy. And for some it is hard to accept. But change can never happen unless someone takes a risk and takes the first step. Others then follow and another step then can be taken.

[pomtzu]

And just how do Canadians handle situations such as this???????

[NicoleLJ]

Canada full accepts gays serving in the military

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation_and_military_service

Nations that permit gay people to serve openly in the military include the Republic of China (Taiwan), Australia, Israel, Argentina, Canada, all member states of the European Union and every original NATO signatory except Turkey.

Here is Canada's histroy on this subject.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation_and_the_Canadian_military



In May 1967, due to the passing of the CF Reorganization Act (C-90) the Canadian Forces issued Canadian Forces Administrative Order (CFAO) 19-20, Sexual Deviation - Investigation, Medical Investigation and Disposal, which required members of the military suspected of being homosexual to be investigated and then subsequently released.

This order was repealed in 1992, after a challenge by then CF Member Michelle Douglas, thereby allowing gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people to serve in the Canadian Forces free from harassment and discrimination.[2][3]

A series of provincial and territorial court decisions beginning in 2003 ruled in favour of the legality of gay marriage, and a national law to that effect was passed by Canada's parliament in 2005 by the Paul Martin Liberal government.

In 2004, Jason Stewart was the first member of Canada's military to marry a same-sex partner.[4]In May 2005, Canada's first military gay wedding took place at Nova Scotia's Canadian Forces Base Greenwood. Officials described the ceremony as low-key but touching. A similar wedding has since taken place between two male Royal Canadian Mounted Police officers. Today, the Canadian Forces recognizes same-sex marital and common-law unions, and affords them the same benefits offered to all married or common-law serving members

[Lady's Human]

Yes it will be messy at times. But the same thing happened to the first African American deep sea divers for the navy.

Hollywood does not equal reality, and this isn't even a remotely similar situation.



And the first African Americans to fly in the air force in their own units. People had the same arguements then to stop them doing what they did as you are stating now. In those cases and many others it helped to change how African Americans were viewed in those areas. Which is what I think will happen here as well.

Black pilots were never really an issue with the military with the exception of the senior officers, who were largely white southerners.

A better comparison situationally would be the removal of the barriers to women serving in Combat support units. Never said women couldn't physically do the job. However, sexual assault and general assault went up by a significant margin, much of it unreported by the media because of the nature of the manner with which military discipline is handled.

According to the media, all was fine. The reality, however, went unreported, until women were serving in combat zones in large numbers for the first time. Then it was headline news.

This won't even get that much coverage, but the reality of the situation is going to be far uglier.

[NicoleLJ]

LH do you really think the US military personel are that full of bigotry? I have more faith in people then that. If Canada and many other countries have had no real issues or problems with this transition why in the world would you assume that the States will? I thought they were the land of the Free. The best place to live for the rights it gives it's people. Yet Canada in this area gives more freedom with little issue? I am glad the States has finally decided to join Canada and other countries in this.

[Lady's Human]

1) I'm deeply disappointed, Nicole, the correct word is homophobia. You're losing points for politically correct discourse. Pay better attention to the memos next time.

2) Did you fail to not the "Thank God I'm retired"?

That's recently retired. I think I have a decent handle on the minds of soldiers.

BTW, if you think 'every other military' accepts gays in service with no issues, I've got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. You won't hear anything about the hazing and assaults that happen in the US Military after this, and we're OPEN to the media.

[NicoleLJ]

1) I'm deeply disappointed, Nicole, the correct word is homophobia. You're losing points for politically correct discourse. Pay better attention to the memos next time.

2) Did you fail to not the "Thank God I'm retired"?

That's recently retired. I think I have a decent handle on the minds of soldiers.

If you want to nit pick words I can to. You sentence should be NOTE not NOT. So you were in the military. I was raised in it all over Canada. You failed to answer any of the questions I asked you in the previous post. If you don't want to answer or can't that is fine but they are fair questions. Here they are agian:

do you really think the US military personel are that full of bigotry? Because I have know tons of them and none of the ones I have ever met, lived on the base with(American soldiers did come to our bases at times for training coarses), and talked to never felt this way. They didn't care actually.

If Canada and many other countries have had no real issues or problems with this transition why in the world would you assume that the States will? I personally think there will be issues but they will be over come as they come up and are dealt with. I just don't think it is an impossible goal since others have already proven that it can be done.

I thought they were the land of the Free. The best place to live for the rights it gives it's people. Yet Canada in this area gives more freedom with little issue? This will give Gays the same rights as everyone else. Look at my post that shows the history of Gays in the military in Canada. I think it would be awsome if the States followed suite.

[pomtzu]

Perhaps the reason why other countries have embraced this before the U.S., is that their population is considerably smaller and maybe they just had take what they could get. Perhaps their standards are lower too. Not saying that these countries or their people are inferior - not by any means - but there has to be some underlying reason. IMO of course - before anyone jumps on me for my statement.

[NicoleLJ]

BTW, if you think 'every other military' accepts gays in service with no issues, I've got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. You won't hear anything about the hazing and assaults that happen in the US Military after this, and we're OPEN to the media.

I never said no issues I implied only a little issue. But that is Canada. In the States I have stated that I do believe there will be issues. I have said that prior. But I also believe that they will be over come as time goes on.

[Lady's Human]

do you really think the US military personel are that full of bigotry? Because I have know tons of them and none of the ones I have ever met, lived on the base with(American soldiers did come to our bases at times for training coarses), and talked to never felt this way. They didn't care actually.

Of course they did, and I'm also completely certain that that question was first and foremost in your mind when talking to foreign troops. :rolleyes:

You have no idea about the amount of briefings US soldiers go through when going to a foreign country about proper contact with foreign nationals, what to say, what not to say, etc. I've been to Canadian bases for training a few times. You know how much contact we had and time to mingle with the locals we had? No contact except for the occasional chow trip or pogey bait run.We were out in the bush for all but three days out of the three weeks we were in CFB Gagetown, and that's the norm for US Army units training on foreign bases.

[Lady's Human]

As an aside, to be completely consistent, it's PRESIDENT Obama, or Pres. Obama, etc.

It's really grating when people don't use the proper address for someone, regardless of your opinion of the individual.

[NicoleLJ]

Perhaps the reason why other countries have embraced this before the U.S., is that their population is considerably smaller and maybe they just had take what they could get. Perhaps their standards are lower too. Not saying that these countries or their people are inferior - not by any means - but there has to be some underlying reason. IMO of course - before anyone jumps on me for my statement.

Besides being 100% insulting to those countries by those statements, I guess you are trying to say that there has to be an underlying reason why those countries are being more progresive that the states in those areas other then because they believe in equality :rolleyes: Crazy to imagine that Canada could beleive in freedom and equlity.

[Grace]

Countries that allow gays in the military -

Twenty-five countries allowed military service by openly gay people as of June 2009.

-- They are:
Australia,
Austria,
Belgium,
Canada,
Czech Republic,
Denmark,
Estonia,
Finland,
France,
Germany,
Ireland,
Israel,
Italy,
Lithuania,
Luxembourg,
Netherlands,
New Zealand,
Norway,
Slovenia,
South Africa,
Spain,
Sweden,
Switzerland,
United Kingdom,
Uruguay.

While all of these have smaller populations than the USA, I would hardly describe all of them as lowering their standards, taking what they could get. I see them as being more progressive than we are.

[NicoleLJ]

Countries that allow gays in the military -

Twenty-five countries allowed military service by openly gay people as of June 2009.

While all of these have smaller populations than the USA, I would hardly describe all of them as lowering their standards, taking what they could get. I see them as being more progressive than we are.

100% agree

[Lady's Human]

While all of these have smaller populations than the USA, I would hardly describe all of them as lowering their standards, taking what they could get. I see them as being more progressive than we are.


For most of those countries, the military is miniscule, and the tooth to tail ratio is badly skewed. One of those countries has no tooth at all.

Different cultures, different training methods, different uses for their militaries. The only countries on any sort of a par with the US out of the countries listed are probably the UK and France.

Standards are different from US standards in those militaries, and results are different as well. Helmsland province, anyone?

[Asiel]

And just how do Canadians handle situations such as this???????

Don't kid yourself Pomtzu. I personally know 7 gays/lesbians that joined the forces and I woudn't want to describe the horrors that they confided in me that they were put through while in the service. Straight from the horse's mouth so I do believe them as 4 of them quit . Canada might have made it a non issue but the ordinary citizen isn't always as tolerant.

[Lady's Human]

Asiel, as I was saying, it's a technical non-issue, but what happens within the military in reality is a very different situation.

[Catty1]

It may be legal and look good on paper...but many people will get beaten and worse.

Homophobia exists in the civilian world too...and every so often there is a news report of a horrid assault (putting it mildly).

Yes, it's a progressive and good idea. I bet many gay and lesbian people will still stay in the closet while serving in the military. Best to focus on one enemy.

[Asiel]

I do know that . But Canadians in general are not as tolerant as the painted picture shown here. Can't say someone didn't try to avert this, too bad it fell through. To each his own, just a lot of crap to me, not worth the discussion.
Especially when it's all been copied and pasted from other sources.

[Asiel]

it may be legal and look good on paper...but many people will get beaten and worse.

Homophobia exists in the civilian world too...and every so often there is a news report of a horrid assault (putting it mildly).

Yes, it's a progressive and good idea. I bet many gay and lesbian people will still stay in the closet while serving in the military. Best to focus on one enemy.


bingo !!!!!!!!

[Lady's Human]

The posts were removed by the mayor as a request, it was a sideline discussion and a misunderstanding.

[NicoleLJ]

Especially when it's all been copied and pasted from other sources.

There is nothing wrong with copying and pasting from other sources when you are providing info for questions asked. Example: When I was asked Canada's view on Gays in the military. I knew some would not take my word for it. So I provided a link to the history along with the information. That way they could read it for themselves with no need of a he said she said.

[wombat2u2004]

Nicole, why do you support gays in the military ????

[NicoleLJ]

Because I believe in equality. I can admit that if you had asked me if I supported Gays and equality 2 yrs ago that I would have said no. If asked why my only arguement was that it was agianst my religion. Even saying it left a bad taste in my mouth. Doug and many other helped me to see how prejudice my views were. I fought it because I didn't want to think that the church I was raised to believe was the one true church could be wrong. But they are and were.

Prejudism does not just affect people of color, religion, race and such. It can affect everyone. Even disable people have to deal with it too. Doug asked me yesterday when I was discussing this issue with him, what the difference is if a gay man, a woman, colored person, straight man or so on were to rescue another soldier on a field of battle. The answer is there is no difference. Would a wounded soldier refuse their aid because of the person religion? Color? Sex? Sexual orientation? No. They can still do all the same things required. They just are different in some way or another and there is nothing wrong with that. So if there is nothing wrong with them being different then they should all be treated equally. They should have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else esspecailly since they are putting their life on the line to defend their country.

[blue]

Yeah, like equal treatment under the law.

So making special laws and accommodations for gays in the military is equal treatment?

Gays were free to serve before President Obama lifted the "Ban" on gays in the military.

[NicoleLJ]

So making special laws and accommodations for gays in the military is equal treatment?

.

How are they being given special accommodations? They are being given the same rights as everyone else. I don't see that as special. I see that as equality.

[Karen]

So making special laws and accommodations for gays in the military is equal treatment?

Gays were free to serve before President Obama lifted the "Ban" on gays in the military.

They were allowed to serve as long as they did not admit their sexual orientation to anyone. T'was always thus, unofficially. These days, there are more and more lawyers on earth per person, so more things make it into law.

It will be a transition, that's for sure. I hope it happens more or less smoothly, but knowing there are human beings involved on every side of the issue means it probably won't. Sigh. But I can hope!

[Edwina's Secretary]

Thirty-four responses about with whom adults have consensual adult relationships.

Fourteen about almost 100 people killed by a right wing religious nut.

Good to know we have our priorities straight.

[blue]

How are they being given special accommodations? They are being given the same rights as everyone else. I don't see that as special. I see that as equality.

From the OP.


how it will affect housing, military transfers and other health and social benefits.

Special considerations and accommodations is how I read that. That is not equality.

[Marigold2]

I am so proud of our President. Like Lincoln he feels alll men should be treated equally. Black, white, gay or straight.

These precious young children, men and women are risking their lives to keep us and the world safe.
They are our sons and daughters, our brothers and nieces.

Each one is a hero, each one an American.

[Lady's Human]

Yeay progressivism.

To hell with the fallout of the declaration.

Again, glad I'm retired so I don't have to deal with the fallout of this mess, which will be far worse than the fallout of allowing women into combat support units.

[blue]

Time to get rid of womens only gyms. If we are going to be progressive, lets be progressive.

[pomtzu]

Besides being 100% insulting to those countries by those statements, I guess you are trying to say that there has to be an underlying reason why those countries are being more progresive that the states in those areas other then because they believe in equality :rolleyes: Crazy to imagine that Canada could beleive in freedom and equlity.

Well - you guessed wrong. Such a shame - since you're always right :rolleyes: on any subject that you choose to post about. You should be as concerned about "other matters" in your life that need tending to, as you are about matters that absolutely don't affect you in any way, shape, or form.
BTW - I thought you had me on ignore, as you previously stated that you did. But of course, since you went on a rampage a while back and deleted tons of threads, then that info would be erased. Nice job! :rolleyes:

[wombat2u2004]

Time to get rid of womens only gyms. If we are going to be progressive, lets be progressive.

You mean....now I have the freedom to go to Tupperware parties ????
Oh goody.
I like this thread, it gives me the opportunity to be equal with everyone, and to ask those questions which until now I have been afraid to ask.
Question: How can I get rid of these durn period pains ???
I know, I know....I'm male and therefore don't have them....but I have the RIGHT to have them. :D:D
THAT, is equality !!!!

[NicoleLJ]

Well - you guessed wrong. Such a shame - since you're always right :rolleyes: on any subject that you choose to post about. You should be as concerned about "other matters" in your life that need tending to, as you are about matters that absolutely don't affect you in any way, shape, or form.
BTW - I thought you had me on ignore, as you previously stated that you did. But of course, since you went on a rampage a while back and deleted tons of threads, then that info would be erased. Nice job! :rolleyes:

If I was wrong then you could have simply stated how I was wrong about your post. But since you didn't...

Obviously I am not always right and do not think that way either. If I did then I would not have admitted that 2yrs ago that I didn't believe in equality for Gays. My views changed on that subject thanks to Doug and others having discussion with me about it. That is one of the ways how people learn and change, by talking.

So since a subject does not affect me I can not post about it? Talk about it or have an opinion about it? Well that is news to me. You better inform the other people posting in this thread that are not from the US that they are also not not allowed those things. Oh wait. Is it just me that you don't think is allowed those things? Interesting.

Yes I do have you on ignore. But you posted in a thread I put up. You asked me a question in a civilized manner about how Canada views this subject. So I choose to reply. Being on ignore does not mean I can't see what you post. It means I have to click on a little button that is above your post to view it.

WOW obviously you care a ton about me since you are so interested in every thing I do, and what goes on in my life, that you are watching all my posts and all my doings. Thank you so much. Nice to know you care

[pomtzu]

If I was wrong then you could have simply stated how I was wrong about your post. But since you didn't...

Obviously I am not always right and do not think that way either. If I did then I would not have admitted that 2yrs ago that I didn't believe in equality for Gays. My views changed on that subject thanks to Doug and others having discussion with me about it. That is one of the ways how people learn and change, by talking.

So since a subject does not affect me I can not post about it? Talk about it or have an opinion about it? Well that is news to me. You better inform the other people posting in this thread that are not from the US that they are also not not allowed those things. Oh wait. Is it just me that you don't think is allowed those things? Interesting.

Yes I do have you on ignore. But you posted in a thread I put up. You asked me a question in a civilized manner about how Canada views this subject. So I choose to reply. Being on ignore does not mean I can't see what you post. It means I have to click on a little button that is above your post to view it.

WOW obviously you care a ton about me since you are so interested in every thing I do, and what goes on in my life, that you are watching all my posts and all my doings. Thank you so much. Nice to know you care


Just as I expected from you. :rolleyes: And if you think I care (about you) - well think again. :rolleyes:

However, that being said, I do feel that there are more important issues in the U.S. than a big to-do about gays in the military. I'm far more concerned with the Federal budget at the moment, and whether I will see my S.S. check next week, and if perhaps my doctor will make me pay for my office visit because he doesn't know if he will get paid for it by Medicare.
There have been gays in the military for who know how long, so why the big deal now, just because our President gives his blessing???? As I said - much more important issues to be taken care of, than to resolve the issue and be happy that Joe and Jim who are military "buddies", can now walk hand in hand without the fear of being tossed out.
I just find it strange that you never bring up Canadian issues, but are quick to jump on U.S. issues.

[Karen]

Calm down, both of you, no need to battle over this. And Wombat, by the way, growing up my friend's Dad was a "Tupperware lady" - the only male salesman for them we knew of, but did well!

[pomtzu]

Calm down, both of you, no need to battle over this. And Wombat, by the way, growing up my friend's Dad was a "Tupperware lady" - the only male salesman for them we knew of, but did well!

No battle - just a difference of opinion and/or values.........;)

[caseysmom]

Seems like more of a difference of opinion to me...thanks Karen!

[Catty1]

Just FWIW - "Equal" does not mean "the same."

When I was 13 and ranting about how there was no difference between white people and black people, my dad quietly interrupted and said, "There IS a difference. But it shouldn't MAKE a difference."

In the best of all possible worlds...;)