Court Fight waged over brain damaged moms tripplets

[DJFyrewolf36]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/22/california.triplets.visitation.lawsuits/index.html

Something about this whole thing seems fishy to me. Again I'm sure we aren't getting the whole story. I feel very sorry for the poor children. :(

[caseysmom]

I just saw this. Both sides seem to be fighting for her money and its disgusting. The Dad is suing for child support the mom looks decked out in expensive close from the million dollar law suit...the whole thing has an icky feel to it.

[pomtzu]

I didn't see anything sinister in this at all, but maybe I'm missing something. All I saw was a man and his wife caring for their disabled daughter, and wanting the grandchildren to be able to be part of her life. Granted, at this point, considering their age, it could probably be very traumatic for them, but I don't see where a webcam could hurt. At least they can see her, and when they are older and can somewhat understand her condition, that it won't be a shock to them.
And as far as the father of the children wanting child support - I'm out on that verdict. I guess I would have to know what he does for a living before I would say he should get anything.

[Twisterdog]

I actually believe that the younger the children are when they are exposed to their mother's condition, the easier it is going to be for them. Young kids take everything is stride, provided it is handled well by the adults. If they meet her now, she will just be mom to them as they grow up. They longer everyone waits the harder it is going to be on them.

As for child support ... I don't know. If the dad is making a good living, and it is going to take all of the settlement money to care for the mom, then I think he should let it alone. However, if her parents are milking any of that money for themselves, and he is an average working-class guy with three kids to care for, I can certainly see where is would be wanting that money for his kids, not his wife's parents. Too little info to make an educated call.

[cassiesmom]

I feel sorry for the children too. I think they should be allowed to visit their mother even if their father remarries. Between the husband and the grandparents I don't think there's an easy resolution to where the money goes. The mother needs care for her brain injury but there will be ongoing expenses for the children too.

[lvpets2002]

:( Yes it is Sad anyway you look at it..
I feel sorry for the children too. I think they should be allowed to visit their mother even if their father remarries. Between the husband and the grandparents I don't think there's an easy resolution to where the money goes. The mother needs care for her brain injury but there will be ongoing expenses for the children too.

[Asiel]

The whole thing is very sad but I see no reason why the maternal grandparents and the mother can't have contact with the triplets. They make it sound like the mother abused her kids when in fact she almost gave her life giving birth to them. Nobody will ever be able to say for sure to what extent the mother feels or understands. There is no reason to keep her kids away from her, kids learn to adapt at a very young age and as they get older they will resent being kept away from her.
Something smells fishy about the whole scenario, for one thing the father wanting money to help raise his kids....what would he be doing if his wife hadn't gotten that money and went home as a whole person with the triplets...what does he do for a living is my question.

[caseysmom]

Had his wife lived I guess he wouldn't need day care but to me if he wants her money but the kids can't see Mom its just wrong.

[Asiel]

Had his wife lived I guess he wouldn't need day care but to me if he wants her money but the kids can't see Mom its just wrong.

Totally agree with you on that one.

[Marigold2]

Oh my gosh are you kidding me? The mom is a veggie salad. The kids do not need to see or be exposed to a veggie. She is incapable of giving them any love, attention, support.................
Yes I feel sorry for her, but it's over, the cards have been dealt. Now the husbend and the kids need to forge ahead and make a normal life for themselves and grandma and grandpa should put daughter in a nursing home and get on with their lives.
If that was me I would not want my children to dwell on what has happened to me, I would want them to go ahead and enjoy their lives to the fullest. Life is for the living and is to be enjoyed.
I have told all of my kids, if I stroke out enjoy life, every precious second and don't fret about me. My time has passed, it's ok to be happy and do your thing.

[pomtzu]

Oh my gosh are you kidding me? The mom is a veggie salad. The kids do not need to see or be exposed to a veggie. She is incapable of giving them any love, attention, support.................
Yes I feel sorry for her, but it's over, the cards have been dealt. Now the husbend and the kids need to forge ahead and make a normal life for themselves and grandma and grandpa should put daughter in a nursing home and get on with their lives.
If that was me I would not want my children to dwell on what has happened to me, I would want them to go ahead and enjoy their lives to the fullest. Life is for the living and is to be enjoyed.
I have told all of my kids, if I stroke out enjoy life, every precious second and don't fret about me. My time has passed, it's ok to be happy and do your thing.

OMG - I can't believe you have posted what you have!

I found this post to be very cruel and cold...... Veggie salad??? :mad:

How do you know what this woman is capable of?? Are you part of her rehab team??? Have you personally seen and evaluated her??? :mad:

And it seems as tho the husband has already forged ahead - he divorced his wife afterall.

And perhaps YOU should tell grandma and grandpa to put their daughter in a nursing home and get on with their lives. Hellooooooooooooo - but I think you missed something - their daughter IS their life, and they are doing what they WANT and feel they NEED to do for her. Perhaps "some people" would put her away so that she is out of sight/out of mind, but I don't believe any parent that loves their child and has the ability to give/assist in the needed care, would ever resort to such measures.

And the little ones - they should most definitely have a relationship with their mother, no matter how limited and/or one sided that it may be. IMO - there are very few instances in which a child should not have contact with a parent, and this woman's condition isn't one of them.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

It's heartbreaking. IMO the children should be allowed to visit their mother with proper supervision. One day they are going to know of her existence and want to know about their mother. If they are kept from her then their father will have some awkward questions to answer.

Why does everything have to come down to money? :(

[lvpets2002]

:( Yes it is all so sad & heartbreaking for both parties.. I do aggree the children should have the right to see & know about their mother.. I mean she birthed them & it costed her of freedom..

Pawsitive Thinking == it all comes down to money due to Greed & more Greed.. Greed is a nightmare from Hellll that somepeople just have not learned how to control before it takes control over somepeople.. Its Life & Life goes on & on & on..

It's heartbreaking. IMO the children should be allowed to visit their mother with proper supervision. One day they are going to know of her existence and want to know about their mother. If they are kept from her then their father will have some awkward questions to answer.

Why does everything have to come down to money? :(

[caseysmom]

OMG - I can't believe you have posted what you have!

I found this post to be very cruel and cold...... Veggie salad??? :mad:



Doesn't surprise me in the least.

[lvpets2002]

:( I ussally dont post anything negative about what people post.. BUTTTT Marigold2 I find this/your post very COLD & UpSetting.. I happened to have a mother that was as you call them a Veggie Salad & I still took care of her & LOVED her.. She was my Mother.. You dont just stop loving someone just because they can not mobile normally.. This woman risked her life giving these babies their life.. So why should she & the kids not be able to see each other.. And if I were her parents I would be doing the same & caring for my daughter.. It is their right.. Give me a break on How Cold You Are.. I know you sound tough now = but we will see if this is to happen to you.. Ok I will get off of my soap box now.. Thank You All for Your Out Look On This Story..
Oh my gosh are you kidding me? The mom is a veggie salad. The kids do not need to see or be exposed to a veggie. She is incapable of giving them any love, attention, support.................
Yes I feel sorry for her, but it's over, the cards have been dealt. Now the husbend and the kids need to forge ahead and make a normal life for themselves and grandma and grandpa should put daughter in a nursing home and get on with their lives.
If that was me I would not want my children to dwell on what has happened to me, I would want them to go ahead and enjoy their lives to the fullest. Life is for the living and is to be enjoyed.
I have told all of my kids, if I stroke out enjoy life, every precious second and don't fret about me. My time has passed, it's ok to be happy and do your thing.

[Taz_Zoee]

Personally, I think the father wanted to move on (as in with another relationship), didn't want to deal with three babies and a "sick" wife.
I think if he truly loved her like he stated he did, she would be living in the same house with him and the children.

And as someone else stated, if those children had grown up around her there wouldn't be a problem. They would just know that is mom.....end of story. Now that it has been almost 4 years he is using the excuse of "the kids won't be able to handle it". They would have handled it just fine if they had been with their mother from the beginning. And who's to say that Abbie would not make HUGE improvements just by having her children around her? No one knows for sure how much she can understand and comprehend. She may feel that there is nothing left to fight for since she doesn't have her husband or children anymore.

And I am as shocked and saddened as everyone else on the "not-so-nice" post. I know this is in the Dog House but it doesn't REQUIRE mean comments.

[Marigold2]

I posted my thoughts on this women in an honest way. If it was me I would want my children to move on and not waste their life on a veggie salad being me. I posted that because I love my children and want them to enjoy their life to the fullest. I put my childrens happeness before my own,
From what I understood of the article this women cannot speak, move or comprehned any thing around her, her mind is gone and from what the Dr's are telling the husband think it will remain so. Yes she blinks but perhaps it is just that. A blink.
How are her children be a part of her life? She cannot speak to them, hug them, feed them or even love them. I think exposing these kids to her is horrid, yes she gave birth to them and lost her life but those are the cards she was dealt. What happiness can come from the children sitting by her bedside? Perhaps when they are 10 or older they can meet her and get an understanding but for now I think it would give them nightmares.
I don't think it's very cool at all to expose little ones to that.
As for the husbend moving on, good for him. He has kids to support and a life to lead. No good would come of him sitting by her bedside, the kids come first.

[Karen]

The children can meet her, and understand her situation. They can talk to her, just as one might speak to a coma patient. We do not know how much she sees or understands, but a touch is still a touch. A voice is still a voice. And she is their mother, and as children, they are bound, sooner or later, to wonder about her.

And, next time, you can be honest with sounding so cruel. Remember, this is Pet Talk.

[caseysmom]

I guess some folks don't really mean "till death do us part" maybe they should say "until its not convenient anymore"

[Marigold2]

My mom was in a coma after her car accident and I sat at her bedside, it was a nightmare. Had she lived and stayed in the coma I would have stopped going to see her.
I had three kids who needed a mom.
My mom and I talked about this very thing six months before her accident because Steve's mom had a stroke and my mom said she did not want to live like that and be a burden. Being in a coma is no life. I feel the same.
I would not put my kids through that. Sometimes love means letting go and letting others live their lives without you, for it is best for them.
None of us know how much time we have on this earth, life is not fair and there is no explaintion as to why a two year old dies of cancer and the 103 year old man in the nursing home still has a beating heart and no visitors.
But when the brain is dead and the heart is not I believe the soul has left and it is time for the living to move on and let the living dead pass on as well.
If I die or wind up in a coma I expect Steve to move on. I would be a tough act to follow but I would want him to have someone to be with and never sit by my bedside and waste his life.

[pomtzu]

Marigold - try walking in the shoes of the "grandma" in this case.

So now YOU are grandma, and YOUR DAUGHTER is "veggie salad", who was once married and had a horrible accident during childbirth. Your once son-in-law takes this child and moves away, refusing to let your grandchild see his mother, and you in turn, can't see your grandchild. You ship your veggie salad daughter off to a nursing home and essentially abandon her, so you can get on with your life, and to Hell with her. Her "life" is over, the cards have been dealt, life is for the "living", so put her where she is out of sight/out of mind, and get back to your "normal" life, be happy, and live life to the fullest. How pathetic and sad..........:(

Is that what YOU would do??? I believe it is. I sincerely hope that your daughter never has the opportunity to read this thread. :mad:

[Alysser]

You keep saying "if that was me..", well that isn't you. You say what you'd want in such a situation, but from what I've learnt you can't interpret what you would do or want in a certain situation UNTIL you're in that situation. You have no idea what you'd want if you were in her situation. There is no way you could know because that's just it, it hasn't happened to you. You could say you do not want your kids to see you like that but I'm sure if the tables were turned you'd feel differently. I've said things similar and it always turned out differently. I said if anyone in my family got a major disease that could kill, I would not want to live anymore, I would be beside myself. But when my mom got cancer in 2005, I surprised myself by being the strongest I could for her. I can't imagine a mom would wouldn't want to see their kids in her situation. I also don't think your kids (or anyone) would be happy knowing they were "living their life to the fullest" and they were not seeing their mother no matter what state of life she was living. I just don't understand that mentality.

It might've been the cards she was dealt but it doesn't make her useless or her life useless. Maybe she can't speak, hug, feed, or whatever else to her children but that's not what LOVE is. It doesn't mean she is incapable of loving someone. Personally, I don't think any life is useless and there is still always hope. While a coma might not be a good life, it's still a life..doesn't make it useless. Not in my mind anyway. I also can't imagine what parent would just put their child in a nursing home and forget about them like that..

[Twisterdog]

I posted my thoughts on this women in an honest way.

There is a line between honesty and cruelty, phrased in a dramatic, attention-seeking manner. Perhaps it would serve you well in life to pay a bit more attention to said line.

[Asiel]

I posted my thoughts on this women in an honest way. If it was me I would want my children to move on and not waste their life on a veggie salad being me. I posted that because I love my children and want them to enjoy their life to the fullest. I put my childrens happeness before my own,
From what I understood of the article this women cannot speak, move or comprehned any thing around her, her mind is gone and from what the Dr's are telling the husband think it will remain so. Yes she blinks but perhaps it is just that. A blink.
How are her children be a part of her life? She cannot speak to them, hug them, feed them or even love them. I think exposing these kids to her is horrid, yes she gave birth to them and lost her life but those are the cards she was dealt. What happiness can come from the children sitting by her bedside? Perhaps when they are 10 or older they can meet her and get an understanding but for now I think it would give them nightmares.
I don't think it's very cool at all to expose little ones to that.
As for the husbend moving on, good for him. He has kids to support and a life to lead. No good would come of him sitting by her bedside, the kids come first.



Are you a doctor that you can say these things? Even in a coma we were told by doctors that the last thing to go is the sense of hearing. My mom was in a coma before dying and we sat by her bed and spoke to her and I can guarantee she heard every word.

This mother can't give her kids love, can't speak to them, can't touch them? What about the kids? They can touch her, speak to her, love her , touch and hug her. When these kids grow up and start asking about their mother they will resent having the truth kept from them. And why should they be raised without the knowledge that this is their mom? You speak like it was a disgrace for her to be in this state. So let's raise the kids to be unfeeling, uncaring and shun those that can't be the same as us? I have a best friend who is a "veggie salad" as you like to put it. Not a week goes by that I don't visit her, and while she doesn't communicate I know she is aware that I'm there. I go and visit because it reminds me that for the grace of God it could be me in that bed. Someday it might be and I hope I've raised my kids to be more compassionate than what I just read from you. Maybe you should reread your posts and let the things you've posted sink in because they are nothing short of cruel and unfeeling.

[Marigold2]

Apperently I feel differently or see things in a different light then some here. That is ok by me, I am a very pratical person.
I have reread my post..........................
I believe at this age it will give the children nightmares to see their mom like this. When she does not interact it will frighten them and bore them in a very short time.
As a mother I stated that I would not want my children to spend their life waiting for the possibilty that I may or may not get well. I stand by that. I want my kids to live happy lives, they cannot help me and I cannot love them now or be a part of their lives so let me go and be happy.
Visit once a month to make sure my care is ok but if there is a reason to pull the plug please go ahead. My organs then can help others, my kids will get some life insurance money, my husbend can watch baseball and listen to classical music all he wants and he can start to look for someone who can love him back and share his life as for me well hopefully I will be up in heaven, so it's a win, win, win, win.
The Dr's in her case do not feel will improve. How long is the husbend suppose to wait to have love again, to have a partner, a friend, a lover?
He will have to go home alone, raise the kids alone, face all the hardship and joy alone and every night after a hard day he goes to bed alone and has no one to talk to, dream with, share joys with or have a gentle touch.
Family helps but in the end you are alone especially at night when bed time comes and you want your partner there to cuddle with and confide to and share hopes and dreams and plans and feel safe.
He deserves all that, his wife is uncapable of giving that and yes it is sad sad sad but one cannot change facts, he should move on and enjoy his life.
I am sorry your friend is in a coma. Truly I am.
As I stated my mom was as well and I sat by her bedside every night and spoke to her, and in all that time there was no response, just random twiches. I would like to think that she heard my voice and knew that I was there praying for her and being there for her but the truth is she was in a coma and I doubt she ever knew I was there.
We have funerals for the living so that we can say goodbye and pay or repects the dead are dead and don't care.
We put ads in the paper on a loved ones birthday who has passed for whom is that, it's for us, the death don't read? I always find these ads somewhat said and a bit odd.
We buy expensive caskets, flowers, have music song all for our benefit, the dead don't hear.
We need this riutual so that we can say goodbye. The dead attend but aren't the life of the party. LOL sorry weird humor there.
I guess what I am trying to say is that many of these things are for us to try and heal and cope, the the dead and the person in the coma well it does not benefit them at all.
Has anyone ever heard of a coma victim waking and saying "I heard your voice" "Because of you being here I know Aunt Joan has cancer, my cousin Jane is graduating and Penny is having a baby?
Does anyone have any knowledge of this occuring? I have yet to hear of this any where.

If this sounds mean or unfeeling so be it, I see it as practical and kind.

How many of you would want to continue to be alive in this women's shoes??

Or would you rather be up in heaven if that is what you believe?

[Karen]

Has anyone ever heard of a coma victim waking and saying "I heard your voice" "Because of you being here I know Aunt Joan has cancer, my cousin Jane is graduating and Penny is having a baby?
Does anyone have any knowledge of this occuring? I have yet to hear of this any where.

Yes, it has happened. People have awakened from lengthy comas, and people have had heir status misdiagnosed as a coma, too. And people have said they heard every word a loved one was saying, even when they were unable to respond. Just Google it, you'll find plenty.

[pomtzu]

Yes, it has happened. People have awakened from lengthy comas, and people have had heir status misdiagnosed as a coma, too. And people have said they heard every word a loved one was saying, even when they were unable to respond. Just Google it, you'll find plenty.

Yes - very true.

Marigold - did you ever hear of "The Man Who Slept For 19 Years"? There is a documentary about him that has aired on Discovery Health Channel a number of times, and there's also a lot of reading material about him. Just Google and you'll find lots - his name is Terry Wallis and he lives in The Ozarks.

He was in a automobile accident and lapsed into a coma due to severe head injuries - he was 19 at the time. He was cared for AT HOME by his MOTHER and not put in a nursing home. One day after being in this condition for nearly 20 years, he woke up. He is able to speak (tho slurred), but has amnesia from the time of the accident to present. He still thinks that he is 19, and that his now grown daughter is the girl that was his wife at the time of the accident.. He is living in the past, but he is living, breathing, speaking, thinking, etc........ His mother never gave up on him!!!

So is a coma a death sentence for someone??? Not by any means what-so-ever.


And one more thing - this brain damaged woman that is the topic of this thread, is not in a coma - she is in a presistant vegetative state.. There IS a difference.

[Cataholic]

Maybe the reason some of see this situation differently than Marigold2 is because so the different relationships we have, or sadly, have had, with our own mothers and children. If we are coming from a position of strained relationships, or feel resentful about our own mothers or children, then, that might explain why we feel differently.
(Mom- in case you are reading this, I do NOT feel this way! :) )

[Marigold2]

You are so correct. Because my mom was a concentration camp survior and lost her entire family in the war she certaintly knew the meaning of life and it's worth.
She never wanted to be one of those people who was kept alive by machines. She told me once there are worst things then death, I have never forgotten those words.
She was never bitter or mean but she did want her children to grab live by the horns and run with it, because you never know.
When she died she left a poem for my brother and I perhaps some of you know it.
Do not stand by my grave and cry I am not dead I did not die.
Even though her grave is not far from my home I take her advice and see her love in a butterfly or a flower growing.
I too have told my children don't stand by my bed if I am stricken by coma or illness, honor my love for you by being the best you can be and enjoy life to the fullest that is the greatest gift you can give me, being happy.
I had the sweetest most wonderful mom anyone can imagine, her wish for me was to always find happiness in life and that is what I do. My wacky sense of humor is part of that.
Sometimes I am very blunt about matters but I am honest. I will tell a person they look like s&*t in that dress if they ask and then help them find a dress they can feel truly pretty in instead of saying "oh you look great" and they don't.
If someone says does this outfit make me look fat? I will honestly say "yes it is because you need to lose some weight" at first they are kind of dumb struck because usually people aren't that honest but then after a few minutes they look at me and say something to the effect, "I know I am fat, I need help losing weight"
Sometimes people do get upset with my honesty but it is only because they know it is true often, not always of course but often I just blurt out what everyone is thinking. It's just me being me.


Maybe the reason some of see this situation differently than Marigold2 is because so the different relationships we have, or sadly, have had, with our own mothers and children. If we are coming from a position of strained relationships, or feel resentful about our own mothers or children, then, that might explain why we feel differently.
(Mom- in case you are reading this, I do NOT feel this way! :) )

[caseysmom]

Being tactful can get you far in life, if just being a kind, tactful person isn't enough in its own right.

[Lady's Human]

There's a fine line between honesty and cruelty, and you cross it routinely.

[caseysmom]

There's a fine line between honesty and cruelty, and you cross it routinely.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[Asiel]

You are so correct. Because my mom was a concentration camp survior and lost her entire family in the war she certaintly knew the meaning of life and it's worth.
She never wanted to be one of those people who was kept alive by machines. She told me once there are worst things then death, I have never forgotten those words.
She was never bitter or mean but she did want her children to grab live by the horns and run with it, because you never know.
When she died she left a poem for my brother and I perhaps some of you know it.
Do not stand by my grave and cry I am not dead I did not die.
Even though her grave is not far from my home I take her advice and see her love in a butterfly or a flower growing.
I too have told my children don't stand by my bed if I am stricken by coma or illness, honor my love for you by being the best you can be and enjoy life to the fullest that is the greatest gift you can give me, being happy.
I had the sweetest most wonderful mom anyone can imagine, her wish for me was to always find happiness in life and that is what I do. My wacky sense of humor is part of that.
Sometimes I am very blunt about matters but I am honest. I will tell a person they look like s&*t in that dress if they ask and then help them find a dress they can feel truly pretty in instead of saying "oh you look great" and they don't.
If someone says does this outfit make me look fat? I will honestly say "yes it is because you need to lose some weight" at first they are kind of dumb struck because usually people aren't that honest but then after a few minutes they look at me and say something to the effect, "I know I am fat, I need help losing weight"
Sometimes people do get upset with my honesty but it is only because they know it is true often, not always of course but often I just blurt out what everyone is thinking. It's just me being me.



We have friends who are concentration camp survivors and they don't look at life the way you do, so there goes that theory. They have raised 4 great compassionte caring children who would never abandon them in a sad situation like this one.
You think the kids will have nightmares because they see their precious mother in this state? And what about the crap they will be exposed to at the movies or on television....some of those would give the sanest person nightmares but I don't see kids turning away for fear of nightmares and I don't see parents forbidding them to watch this trash.
I truly feel sorry for you if you have the kind of children who would walk away and desert you if you became a "vegie salad" . You might think this is what you want now but if you were struck down like this poor woman I think you would change your mind, It's easy to say you wouldn't want your family to bother with you but until you walk in those shoes you have no idea how much you would yearn for your family.
Myself, I hope to have raised my kids to be compassionate enough not to abandon me if ever the day did come when I was in that state because I know I would treasure every precious moment they would be near me and I know they would feel my love for them.

[Cataholic]

]Sometimes I am very blunt about matters but I am honest. I will tell a person they look like s&*t in that dress if they ask and then help them find a dress they can feel truly pretty in instead of saying "oh you look great" and they don't.
If someone says does this outfit make me look fat? I will honestly say "yes it is because you need to lose some weight" at first they are kind of dumb struck because usually people aren't that honest but then after a few minutes they look at me and say something to the effect, "I know I am fat, I need help losing weight"
Sometimes people do get upset with my honesty but it is only because they know it is true often, not always of course but often I just blurt out what everyone is thinking. It's just me being me.

Well, you being you isn't very nice to read, many times.

I couldn't imagine telling anyone what you seemingly find no compuncture with. True has nothing to do with it.

Not too long ago, you posted some pictures of you and one of your kids. I would imagine had anyone posted what they truly thought, you would have been flabbergasted! I am not suggesting anyone thought anything about it. But, I bet the Mayor would have been on the horn so fast heads would have spun had anyone said, "you look like a sad, old woman in that picture". Hey- it is the "truth", right? Kind of like a free pass in life?

You sound mean, harsh, unloving and really, really unkind. I bet you are one lonely old woman, and you hide behind your tough veneer cause otherwise, the crying would never stop.

I am just being truthful.

[Marigold2]

You are certaintly entitled to your opinion. I do not take offense at all.
I usually don't. Your opinion of me is just that your opinion it does not impact my life at all or my thoughts.
I would not want my kids to sit by my bedside because I do love them so much and want them to get on with their lives and enjoy it to the fullest. If I am a so called veggie salad I really can't do much if anything for them, I can't be a mom or wife or friend any more and it's time for me to meet my maker.
I feel that expecting my kids to put their lives on hold for years is selfish, very unmom like in fact. Why should they miss out on life, what happens is unfair yes but my kids would be strong and healthy, have families of their own to look out for, love and enjoy everyday? Knowing my kids are happy is my first and most powerful need. If that is being selfish then I am guily as charged. I truly think differently then most. But again that is ok.
I look at it that way. I guess that is why people make living wills so they don't have to be hooked up to machines to keep their heart beating when their brain is gone.
Has no one here made a living will? Is that not the intent of a living will?
As for the picture of me, I don't know which one you are referring to.
I don't look old I know that for a fact and as for unhappy well I am not.
Sorry to disappoint you I thought I look kinda cute, hubby thinks so.

[pomtzu]

Marigold - as usual, you have twisted the issues at hand to suit yourself to avoid being put on the spot and responding with some intelligence. This thread is all about a brain damaged individual whose husband is keeping her children from her, and whose parents choose to spend their life caring for her at home, rather than shipping "veggie salad" off to a nursing home. This has nothing to do with concentration camps, nothing to do with how you would expect your children to respond if you were the brain damaged person, nothing to do with the fact that you consider yourself "cute", nothing to do with rude (honest as you claim) comments you make to people (and by your own admission), and on and on.......

I was interested to hear what you would do if the tables were turned, as I asked in post #21, where it be YOUR DAUGHTER that suffered a brain injury, and you are her mother. Do you call her "veggie salad" without knowing if she can hear you, do you put her in a nursing home and visit once a month or so, only to make sure that she is getting proper treatment, get on with your life and be happy and active and live life to the fullest??? Is that what you would do for YOUR DAUGHTER??? After all, the cards have been dealt, she's not really "living" anyway, so what does it matter anymore. What about the love you claim to have for her?? - did that somehow change when her life changed???

I guess you never did read anything about "the man who slept for 19 years", either. That should give a glimmer of hope to anyone that has a loved one with brain damage. So with your non-answer to my post and asking about what you would do if the issue was in your lap, then you really have answered loud and clear afterall!!!

Such a cold, impersonal, selfish person...............:(:mad:

[Marigold2]

Actually I did ask my daughter, you see we had this converstation years ago and then agin last night. I was interested if her opinion had changed and it hadn't.
She said "don't worry mom I will wait a while before they disconnect you.
We both laughted and hugged.
If she was as this women is. Yes I would put her in a nursing home so she could get 24 hour care. I don't expect you to understand , but you don't need to.
This is just how our family feels. It doens't have to be how you feel. I think everyone has degrees of how long we would wait for someone to get better. You have to just feel it in your heart and know it is right.
I don't want my kids to have to put their life on hold for me. It's that simple.
Doesn't make me a bad mom or bad person.
How long would I wait for my daughter, well if the Dr said there is no hope, no brain activity, no change of her getting better, no change of a somewhat normal life or a chance to enjoy said life then I would not let her suffer this way. I find that horrible. Just lying there and blinking that to me is worst then death, it is a constent suffering if she is even capable of understanding that. We don't know is she really does mean anything by the blinking.
You see I had to let my mom go, been through this. I know what it is to look into the eyes of the person who loves you more then anyone on this earth and to know you will lose them. It was best for her. Her neck was broken, they feared her brain was damaged to the point where she would not reconize her children. I just could not do that to her. To be possibley paralazed and not know the people who loved you most, no I could not do that to the most wonderful person I ever knew. She is with God, whole, healthy and my angel now. I did what I thought was best for her. I knew she would not want to live like that. She told me so herself. As I have told my kids.
I was not trying to get around the issue, I was trying to explain it in a way that could make sense, but sometims that is just not possible. Different people, different choices all trying to do what they feel is best that is the bottom line.
And quite frankly name calling is serving what purpose, do you get some kind of joy calling me a selfish person? I have not called you any names. My opinion is different then yours, so what, I have not been mean to you, how about looking at yourself?

[pomtzu]

How long would I wait for my daughter, well if the Dr said there is no hope, no brain activity, no change of her getting better, no change of a somewhat normal life or a chance to enjoy said life then I would not let her suffer this way.


Again - having no bran activity, and having brain damage, is 2 different things. You don't pull the plug if there is any brain activity, even tho she will have less than a "normal" life.
So you're saying that she would be off to the nursing home so that she is out of your way and not a burden to you, and you could go on your merry way and live life to the fullest???
And specifically what do you mean by "I would not let her suffer this way" if she is not bran dead, what would you do about it? Again - you can't pull the plug just because she is no longer "normal".

[Lady's Human]

And quite frankly name calling is serving what purpose, do you get some kind of joy calling me a selfish person? I have not called you any names. My opinion is different then yours, so what, I have not been mean to you, how about looking at yourself?

Look in the mirror.

How many people and groups have you called names?

TNTC (too numerous to count)

[Marigold2]

Well it would depend on her outlook, what the Dr's say, if she is capable of pain, joy, love? Can she see, hear, think, feel does she even know she is alive?
So many questions, so many choices. I would do what I thought was best I have said that all along. You might not agree with the choice I make but it is my soul and heart I have to live with.
I don't think a life of blinking is enough for me or those I love. There has to be more and if there isn't then let it end.

[Marigold2]

I did not insult the above person.
She got upset and insulted me. I don't take offense. I know she is angry and I know she did not mean it, just frustrated.
Not a big deal.



Look in the mirror.

How many people and groups have you called names?

TNTC (too numerous to count)

[Cataholic]

LH- what was that phrase you used at least one other time with respect to this poster, something about digging a hole? It is so appropriate here now. The back pedaling, the clarifying, the excusing. Kind of funny. Sad, but funny, too.

[Asiel]

Well it would depend on her outlook, what the Dr's say, if she is capable of pain, joy, love? Can she see, hear, think, feel does she even know she is alive?
So many questions, so many choices. I would do what I thought was best I have said that all along. You might not agree with the choice I make but it is my soul and heart I have to live with.
I don't think a life of blinking is enough for me or those I love. There has to be more and if there isn't then let it end.


Marigold, to say the least you baffle me completely. From what you say, you've elected yourself as the power to be. So many choices....but those choices are not yours to make Marigold.
Why do you think you are the one to decide when it should end? Fine, if you have a brain damaged child and you decide to just put that child in a home somewhere so that you can go on enjoying your life to the fullest, yes, that is your choice. Selfish yes, but your choice.
But it is not your choice to decide when it all ends...I thought that decision rested with the Creator , you know, The One who is supposed to be in charge of calling His children home to Him when He sees fit.
This country does not allow assisted suicide for a reason, if doctors don't want to interfere with God's will why do you feel you are in charge? :confused:

[Lady's Human]

LH- what was that phrase you used at least one other time with respect to this poster, something about digging a hole? It is so appropriate here now. The back pedaling, the clarifying, the excusing. Kind of funny. Sad, but funny, too.

When you find yourself in a hole, the first step should be put down the shovel?

[pomtzu]

Marigold, to say the least you baffle me completely. From what you say, you've elected yourself as the power to be. So many choices....but those choices are not yours to make Marigold.
Why do you think you are the one to decide when it should end? Fine, if you have a brain damaged child and you decide to just put that child in a home somewhere so that you can go on enjoying your life to the fullest, yes, that is your choice. Selfish yes, but your choice.
But it is not your choice to decide when it all ends...I thought that decision rested with the Creator , you know, The One who is supposed to be in charge of calling His children home to Him when He sees fit.
This country does not allow assisted suicide for a reason, if doctors don't want to interfere with God's will why do you feel you are in charge? :confused:

Thank you for this post, Asiel. This is exactly my point - and an issue that Marigold chooses not to answer. So be it............

Marigold, I will pursue this no more, since it's obviously a waste of time. Sorry if I offended you by my remarks about you, but I call it like I see it.

I hope that you will never have a bump in the road - big or small - that will change your lifestyle and make you think of another person's comfort and well being, rather than placing yourself at the top of the list. They say that God never gives us more than we can handle, so perhaps you will be among those that are never dealt a bad hand.

[Cataholic]

When you find yourself in a hole, the first step should be put down the shovel?

YES! LOL, I have this horrible way of taking two amusing 'quotes' and combining them. They are usually funny, but not accurate.

[Taz_Zoee]

I believe every one has a right to their opinion. But in Marigolds original post (re-posted below) she is not just stating an opinion. She is saying these people should think she the way she does and that's it! They are not her and obviously do not share her way of thinking. That is what bothered me about this to begin with. I have read each post since then and think it's fine that she has her opinion. But to be so harsh with the first post and act like every one should have the same thoughts she does was just not okay.

And I'm going to say again......if the father had let the children see their mother from the beginning there would be nothing scary about her to them.


Oh my gosh are you kidding me? The mom is a veggie salad. The kids do not need to see or be exposed to a veggie. She is incapable of giving them any love, attention, support.................
Yes I feel sorry for her, but it's over, the cards have been dealt. Now the husbend and the kids need to forge ahead and make a normal life for themselves and grandma and grandpa should put daughter in a nursing home and get on with their lives.
If that was me I would not want my children to dwell on what has happened to me, I would want them to go ahead and enjoy their lives to the fullest. Life is for the living and is to be enjoyed.
I have told all of my kids, if I stroke out enjoy life, every precious second and don't fret about me. My time has passed, it's ok to be happy and do your thing.

[Marigold2]

Since you posted my first post, please look at what I said.
If it was me............... I would want my children to get on with their lives.
No one commented on this. No one said she really must love her kids to give up their love and affection so that they could live full lives.

No one commented on living wills or DNR orders which can be in the same catagory as veggie or coma. Yet most of us do not want to be hooked on to machines and have our families see us like this nor do we want to live like a veggie on a machine. Many of us would rather die.

As for digging a hole, yes I dug and found myself covered in many peoples mucky words, trying to make me the bad guy when as I said in my first post I would give up my life so I would not be a burden to my family, my friends, or the medical system.

By the way I found some diamonds while I dug and I am not sharing them.

[Catty1]

Just curious, Marigold - what would you do if this happened to your daughter - or even husband? Not if it happened to you...if it happened to someone else in your family.

[pomtzu]

Just curious, Marigold - what would you do if this happened to your daughter - or even husband? Not if it happened to you...if it happened to someone else in your family.

You should go back and read the thread from the start to get the full picture.

I already asked her this and got a non-sensicle answer after continual prodding. She was more interested in turning the issue toward herself (what people should do if SHE was in this position), than answering what she would do if HER DAUGHTER was the one that was stricken. Of course, in the end, it boiled down to her wanting to play God!!!!! :mad:

[Pawsitive Thinking]

By the way I found some diamonds while I dug and I am not sharing them

Going to allow myself a little titter at that one - methinks there is a sense of humour lurking there somewhere. As for the rest well I still think in this case the kiddies should know their mum - how I would feel if anything happened to me or my daughter is a whole different issue

[Marigold2]

Cathy my answer to your question is in 37. I answered as best I could. It is a very gray area.............It would really depend on what the Dr's say and my daughters wishes, which I happen to know. She would not like to live as a veggie. I had this discussion with my family because of our mothers, both Steve and mine. Seeing what happened to them, feeling that pain................ Well we all talked about it so that if it happens to any one of us we would know what to do.
As for playing God we all do that. When we have a child we start a life that is playing God. When we decide to end a fetus life we play God.
If we have to go to war and kill another being we play God. If we put DNR on our papers or make a living will we play God. And I believe also when we bring any animal into this world we play God as well for they are his creatures too.
When someone is in so much pain and they ask for their family to end their suffering they ask us to play God, or when they take their own life.
And Dr's well they do it all day long.
It's part of life and free will which by the way God gave us. He does not stop us from killing another or killing ourselves, driving drunk, taking a drug overdose, shotting our girlfriend he lets it happen.
I have truly answered these questions in the best way I know how. I have been honest and laid it on the line. I have not ignored any ones questions or tried to side step. I feel I did not need to answer your questions or explain myself, this is still America and it is a free country and my family is MY business. However I answered because this is a place where one Should be able to express a thought without being
thrown in the mud and I will continue to express my feelings and thoughts, that is what makes America free and great. Agreeing with me is not the issue, learning other points of view and expanding ones thoughts should be.
There are truly some wonderful people here and I have learned a lot from them and their world and views, I think that might one of the things that makes PT so great. The animals however are always first.
One last thought, if we eat meat are we playing God?





Just curious, Marigold - what would you do if this happened to your daughter - or even husband? Not if it happened to you...if it happened to someone else in your family.

[pomtzu]

Cathy my answer to your question is in 37. I answered as best I could. It is a very gray area.............It would really depend on what the Dr's say and my daughters wishes, which I happen to know. She would not like to live as a veggie. I had this discussion with my family because of our mothers, both Steve and mine. Seeing what happened to them, feeling that pain................ Well we all talked about it so that if it happens to any one of us we would know what to do.
As for playing God we all do that. When we have a child we start a life that is playing God. When we decide to end a fetus life we play God.
If we have to go to war and kill another being we play God. If we put DNR on our papers or make a living will we play God. And I believe also when we bring any animal into this world we play God as well for they are his creatures too.
When someone is in so much pain and they ask for their family to end their suffering they ask us to play God, or when they take their own life.
And Dr's well they do it all day long.
It's part of life and free will which by the way God gave us. He does not stop us from killing another or killing ourselves, driving drunk, taking a drug overdose, shotting our girlfriend he lets it happen.
I have truly answered these questions in the best way I know how. I have been honest and laid it on the line. I have not ignored any ones questions or tried to side step. I feel I did not need to answer your questions or explain myself, this is still America and it is a free country and my family is MY business. However I answered because this is a place where one Should be able to express a thought without being
thrown in the mud and I will continue to express my feelings and thoughts, that is what makes America free and great. Agreeing with me is not the issue, learning other points of view and expanding ones thoughts should be.
There are truly some wonderful people here and I have learned a lot from them and their world and views, I think that might one of the things that makes PT so great. The animals however are always first.
One last thought, if we eat meat are we playing God?

I should have known it would only be twisted again. I might just as well beat my head against a brick wall, rather than expect a direct answer posted here.

[Marigold2]

I should have known it would only be twisted again. I might just as well beat my head against a brick wall, rather than expect a direct answer posted here.
__________________


LOL LOL Pomtzu go right ahead and beat your head against the wall, do it often until you knock some sense into your head.
You go on and on and on about me side stepping the issue, (is your head beginning to hurt yet?) what you really want is for me to say I am wrong, to agree with you. Because I do not feel that way you pester and belittle and criticize my thoughts.
If someone has a different opinion do you always try to change it to your side or else they are wrong and need to explain themselves over and over in great detail to you? Why can you not accept that their view might be right for them? I have not asked you to explain yourself. I did not feel it was right to make you try and explain such a personal choice to me over and over and then to find fault with it.
Oh yes I forgot because you are always right.
Keep banging dear.

[Lady's Human]

LOL LOL Pomtzu go right ahead and beat your head against the wall, do it often until you knock some sense into your head.
You go on and on and on about me side stepping the issue, (is your head beginning to hurt yet?) what you really want is for me to say I am wrong, to agree with you. Because I do not feel that way you pester and belittle and criticize my thoughts.
If someone has a different opinion do you always try to change it to your side or else they are wrong and need to explain themselves over and over in great detail to you? Why can you not accept that their view might be right for them? I have not asked you to explain yourself. I did not feel it was right to make you try and explain such a personal choice to me over and over and then to find fault with it.
Oh yes I forgot because you are always right.
Keep banging dear.

Not surprising, but completely and totally uncalled for.

[pomtzu]

I should have known it would only be twisted again. I might just as well beat my head against a brick wall, rather than expect a direct answer posted here.
__________________


LOL LOL Pomtzu go right ahead and beat your head against the wall, do it often until you knock some sense into your head.
You go on and on and on about me side stepping the issue, (is your head beginning to hurt yet?) what you really want is for me to say I am wrong, to agree with you. Because I do not feel that way you pester and belittle and criticize my thoughts.
If someone has a different opinion do you always try to change it to your side or else they are wrong and need to explain themselves over and over in great detail to you? Why can you not accept that their view might be right for them? I have not asked you to explain yourself. I did not feel it was right to make you try and explain such a personal choice to me over and over and then to find fault with it.
Oh yes I forgot because you are always right.
Keep banging dear.

I never tried to change your way of thinking, I was only trying to get a straight answer. So much for that act of futility.
I will say no more, other than that you will be in my prayers, with the hopes that you never find yourself in the position where you have to make a decision of the fate of one of your children, or even you husband. May God go with you and yours............

[Medusa]

Has anyone ever heard of a coma victim waking and saying "I heard your voice" Does anyone have any knowledge of this occuring?

Years ago I saw just this very thing on the Phil Donahue show. A man had been in a coma for years (I think it was 9 years but I can't be sure). He came out of the coma and aside from slight paralysis and a slight speech impediment, he was nearly as he was before the coma. He said that he was aware of what was going on around him and that he heard what people said to him. I've never forgotten that ever. My brother Chuck was in a coma and I made sure I told him that I loved him before he died. My good friend Helen was also in a coma and I went to see her quite often before she died. I talked to her just as I did before she sank into the coma. If neither of them could understand me, then they at least could feel me holding their hands, stroking their faces and telling them that I loved them. I would hope that someone would do the same for me should that ever happen to me.

[Medusa]

You are so correct. Because my mom was a concentration camp survior and lost her entire family in the war she certaintly knew the meaning of life and it's worth.
She never wanted to be one of those people who was kept alive by machines. She told me once there are worst things then death, I have never forgotten those words.
She was never bitter or mean but she did want her children to grab live by the horns and run with it, because you never know.
When she died she left a poem for my brother and I perhaps some of you know it.
Do not stand by my grave and cry I am not dead I did not die.
Even though her grave is not far from my home I take her advice and see her love in a butterfly or a flower growing.
I too have told my children don't stand by my bed if I am stricken by coma or illness, honor my love for you by being the best you can be and enjoy life to the fullest that is the greatest gift you can give me, being happy.
I had the sweetest most wonderful mom anyone can imagine, her wish for me was to always find happiness in life and that is what I do. My wacky sense of humor is part of that.
Sometimes I am very blunt about matters but I am honest. I will tell a person they look like s&*t in that dress if they ask and then help them find a dress they can feel truly pretty in instead of saying "oh you look great" and they don't.
If someone says does this outfit make me look fat? I will honestly say "yes it is because you need to lose some weight" at first they are kind of dumb struck because usually people aren't that honest but then after a few minutes they look at me and say something to the effect, "I know I am fat, I need help losing weight"
Sometimes people do get upset with my honesty but it is only because they know it is true often, not always of course but often I just blurt out what everyone is thinking. It's just me being me.

I think that you're confusing honesty w/cruelty. One can be honest w/o being hurtful. If someone asks me "Do I look fat in this dress?", I would answer w/something on the order of "It doesn't show off your best features". A small kindness can work wonders for someone's self esteem but to gut someone and call it honesty is dishonest.

[Asiel]

I should have known it would only be twisted again. I might just as well beat my head against a brick wall, rather than expect a direct answer posted here.
__________________


LOL LOL Pomtzu go right ahead and beat your head against the wall, do it often until you knock some sense into your head.
You go on and on and on about me side stepping the issue, (is your head beginning to hurt yet?) what you really want is for me to say I am wrong, to agree with you. Because I do not feel that way you pester and belittle and criticize my thoughts.
If someone has a different opinion do you always try to change it to your side or else they are wrong and need to explain themselves over and over in great detail to you? Why can you not accept that their view might be right for them? I have not asked you to explain yourself. I did not feel it was right to make you try and explain such a personal choice to me over and over and then to find fault with it.
Oh yes I forgot because you are always right.
Keep banging dear.


WOW....you are something else.

Just wanted to let you know that I was in a coma for nearly 6 weeks when I was 9yrs old and all I can say is I'm glad you weren't my mother and decide to walk away from me or pull the plug. And yes, it did take a few months of therapy to get back to my old self but I did get there. I feel sorry for your kids , they deserve better than what you seem able to give.

[caseysmom]

Asiel, I am very thankful your mother didn't give up on you. I am also very happy you had a good outcome.

[Asiel]

Asiel, I am very thankful your mother didn't give up on you. I am also very happy you had a good outcome.



Thanks Casey'smom, - and yes, I thank God everyday that things turned out the way they did. And I thank him for sending me the kind of mom that saw me through a lot of hard work and sweat.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

Thanks Casey'smom, - and yes, I thank God everyday that things turned out the way they did. And I thank him for sending me the kind of mom that saw me through a lot of hard work and sweat.

Let's pray He does the same for this family