Faith?

[DJFyrewolf36]

I am having somewhat of a crisis...
Some of the people Ive seen post on facebook are really making question faith in general. I know what I believe but listening to people spout off scientifc "proof" that can't be backed up makes me sad. People are so sure science is always right and that expirements are honest and unbaised and that isn't true. The problem is is that I don't have science on my side in fact science has worked very hard at disproving my core beliefs. How honest can something be when the purpose is to prove something else wrong?
*sigh* thanks for listening.

[Catty1]

I found a perfect blend of those two sides in a quote from Einstein: "God does not play dice with the universe." ;)

Two weeks from today I am going to attend a Unitarian service in Calgary. I love the community in the church I have been attending for some 10 years, but because of certain things that I never have been able to believe and doubt I ever will, I feel spiritually stunted and unable to grow.

Even if - IF - the Big Bang theory is the correct one, there are immense and huge immutable laws at work, the laws of physics being one example. Evolution of various species is another huge force - why the more religious human beings don't equate this huge force with the power of "God's creation" puzzles me. It is two ways of saying the same thing, IMO.

The nature of science is to break down and deconstruct. This is analysis. I don't think people think science is always "right"; if they do, they need be reminded that all experiments start with a hypothesis (remember middle school science class? ;) ).

My own opinion is that NO ONE knows all the truth, all the time, and that we as a human race do our best to move forward with what we have and know, and learn more as we go forward.

Science is an honest effort to discover truth. But rarely does it prove anything as such, with abstract theories.

Medical science, on the other hand, has saved more lives and is making leaps and bounds all the time.

Your core beliefs are fine. Faith is a non-material essence; science deals only with tangibles.

Hope that makes sense or helps.

[DJFyrewolf36]

It makes sense, and its nice to know Im not alone. I think that the more we discover about the universe, the more it shows that it isnt all just random. I think the problem Im having is with people that see science and spiritualisim as mutually exclusive ideas and people that say Im a fool for even believing in God at all.

[Alysser]

I am not a religious person by any means, but I do believe in god to an extent. I like the idea of heaven, hell, and all that. I am mostly a scientific person, and want to pursue a scientific careers as well. But one thing I hate is people who bash science into someone's head who is religious, or vice versa. Let people just believe what they want and that's the end of it. I don't get why people need to prove to other people there isn't a god or there is a god. It's what YOU believe, while changing someone's mind isn't a bad thing, it can be done without force and being annoying. I've seen post on facebook bashing Democrats and posts bashing Republicans, and while it's different the concept is the same. The fact is bashing or persisting doesn't do anything in these types of arguments.

Just ignore the posts, and believe what you want to believe. Don't let people change your mind if you don't want it to be changed. :)

[Lady's Human]

Faith and science are NOT mutually exclusive.

Explain the symbiotic relationships between certain animals, and in some cases certain individuals of species having a symbiotic relationship.

Explain to me how most systems degenerate into ever simpler states, but life has organized into ever more complex beings.

[CountryWolf07]

I have faith. :) I'm religious, so.... faith is what I believe in. It's gotten me through so many things in my life.

[moosmom]

Countrywolf,

I have faith too. Sometimes it's tested to the brink. But I manage to get through it. And yeah, I saw that post on Facebook.

[Miss Z]

People who proclaim science is all knowing are just as daft as the idiots who threaten you that you'll go to hell unless you get down on your knees and pray for mercy for your sorry, sinful backside.

I think science has given the human race great advancements that have developed us, and will continue to develop us, as a species. I don't believe, however, the human mind has the capacity to harness all the secrets of the universe. We really aren't that clever. :)

I don't believe in God, so I suppose I do support the laws of physics. But, as I was not there when the universe was created, nor could even begin to understand the calculations that demonstrate how the Big Bang could have occurred, I have no evidence to disprove anything else. People are welcome to believe what they want and the sooner more people on this earth come round to that idea, the more the human race would get along!

[Catty1]

OK, gonna go look for that post....

ETA: Found it. If it's the one little line posted by someone whose name begins with C?

I posted to her. You can look.

It says basically that she has faith in her point of view.;):p

It's just one person. You know what they say about opinions...they're like a**holes. Each person has one and each one is different. :D

Yours is equal to anyone else's!:love::love:

[wombat2u2004]

You should'nt let stuff like that get to you DJ.
You have your beliefs, they have theirs, it's as simple as that.
All that matters really, is that you know within yourself that you are right.;)

[DJFyrewolf36]

Thank you guys! I really apriciate you all chiming in. And yeah Catty, she was part of it but her comment came out of a much larger discussion lol.

I do feel a lot better now.

Again, thank you. I love you guys! :love: :D

[RICHARD]

Of course, there is Faith.......


http://usa-hero.com/pics/people/hill_faith.jpg

As long as you believe?







It's just one person. You know what they say about opinions...they're like a**holes. Each person has one and each one is different. :D



I'll never again judge an a-----e without thinking about their faith!;)

[Catherinedana]

All that matters really, is that you know within yourself that you are right.;)

Absolutely! I have very strong faith, but I may not have the same belief system that you do. It doesn't mean that one or the other is following the wrong path.

"Truth is one; paths are many"

Follow your own path to the "truth". I'll meet you there! :love:

[Randi]

DJFyrewolf36, I don't see anything wrong with people questioning their faith. It's only natural.

I wonder what “scientifc "proof" that can't be backed up” you’re talking about. What is it scientists say, that isn’t true?


How honest can something be when the purpose is to prove something else wrong?

The fact that scientists prove something wrong tells us that they are working very hard to make absolutely sure, that what they present to the world are the facts and we all benefit from it.

I, like Miss Z, believe that science has given the human race great advancements and will continue to do so - and I’d believe what a scientist say, rather than what a pastor says any time! However, I am all for people believing in whatever they want, as long as they don’t try to stuff it down everyone else’s throats.

Hope your crisis is over! :)

[smokey the elder]

Albert Einstein had a saying: "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted, counts". The scientific method is all about creating a hypothesis, testing it against measurable or observable quantities, and refining it. I don't think there needs to be any conflict with faith/religion per se; but do see conflict with dogma. IMO, dogma gets in the way of faith. (If I went on further this would be banished to the Dog House!:))

[Cataholic]

I can't see allowing or permitting or being swayed by any one else's POV. If I believe in it, or don't, that is all that is necessary for me. I never got into the 'prove it' argument. I don't need to 'prove' my faith, or lack of, to anyone. That anyone would go to great lenghts themselves, well, that says something to me about their beliefs. But, that is THEIR issue, not mine.

If people would truly believe in themselves, what they stand for, what they believe in, and forget other people's paths or journeys, it makes life SO much simpler. :)

[smokey the elder]

The concept of "proof" should be reserved for science and math. It has no place in faith/religion, IMO. That's why they call it "faith".

[RICHARD]

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

Check it out.

You can see god in this picture. He's doing a Waldo!:eek:;)

[CountryWolf07]

Countrywolf,

I have faith too. Sometimes it's tested to the brink. But I manage to get through it. And yeah, I saw that post on Facebook.

Definitely. It can be tested to the very brink. Faith is a powerful thing.

[Cataholic]

Perhaps this is a really dumb question. How do you all manage to see the same comments/post on FB? Are you all 'friends'?

[Scorpio]

I agree that faith and science seem to be on a collision course again; They are both better off kept apart.
Science does not try to answer spiritual questions. However, an attempt to explain the nature of matter, or why the universe has no end, soon gets close to sounding like faith. Scientists are just as reluctant as priests to hear their paradigms challenged.
My take on this is that whatever the Truth is, is far too difficult for our puny brains to understand. Call it God, or String Theory, it is just a simplified picture we have that works for us, like subway map. So let it work.
If I saw a ghost, no scientist could tell me afterwards that ghosts do not exist. If you feel the beneficial effect of your faith on you, keep on with it, and let science get on with inventing a better toaster. Or saving the planet we are standing on.

[RICHARD]

If you feel the beneficial effect of your faith on you, keep on with it, and let science get on with inventing a better toaster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPo411ysueM

Amen!;)

[DJFyrewolf36]

Perhaps this is a really dumb question. How do you all manage to see the same comments/post on FB? Are you all 'friends'?

Yup! I found Catty (and several others!) on the PT facebook page :D

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=47174270058&ref=ts

[Vette]

http://cuteoverload.com/ : for the next time ya read something that makes you sad ;)

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Even people who believe in the big bang theory have faith. They have faith that absolutely nothing created something. Now, where did nothing come from to create something? That's more of a leap of faith than believing everything was carefully thought out and planned.

How can nothing make planets and stars that aren't in complete chaos from the get go? Can't happen. :D:love:

[Catlady711]

I can't help myself, this topic reminds me of a joke.
No offence meant to anyone, I just found it funny and thought it lightheartedly fit the topic.


One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him. The scientist walked up to God and said, “God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We’re to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don’t you just go on and mind your own business?”
God listened very patiently and kindly to the man. After the scientist was done talking, God said, “Very well, how about this? Let’s say we have a man-making contest.” To which the scientist replied, “Okay, we can handle that!”
“But,” God added, “we’re going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam.”
The scientist said, “Sure, no problem” and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.
God looked at him and said, “No, no, no. You go get your own dirt.”

[kokopup]

Ladys Human

Explain to me how most systems degenerate into ever simpler states, but life has organized into ever more complex beings.
___________

Being a retired Systems Engineer I find your statement confusing. "most systems degenerate into ever simpler states.

It is true that all systems (natures included) can be broken down to a series of simplier functions. When designing a system you start with a simple task and add another simple task then another until it is capable of complex functions. All systems are made up of these building blocks and function the same whether it was conceived by nature or man. I do not relate to your statement "most systems degenerate". In natures engineering and in man's engineering there is an Intelligent designer needed for both. With time both systems degenerate. I can attest to both happening.

[RICHARD]

Check this out.

Look at every system that makes up a body.

Endocrine, Vascular, digestive, nervous, musclar, skeletal.....

If you separate them into the basics?

They still are fantastic sub-systems that all add up to the human form. What a blend of fantastic engineering.

-------------


I got into trouble in Catholic school during a discussion about 'evolution' and 'religion'.

The easiest way to reconcile my schooling and my interest in science was to find a happy medium for difference between god and science.

I told the teacher that evolution was the way that 'god' had planned to create and evolve the planet.

When you start to look at how man showed up on the planet?

Why does there have to be an Adam/Eve/garden of Eden?

Why couldn't the story of creation be stretched over a few million years?

Isn't it more fun to look at god at a desk, pouring over blueprints trying to figure out how to put together the planet called earth?


Sometimes I think we are all a little jaded and way too proud to realize that we are not the only things that matter on the earth.

----------

Tomorrow, look at five things (nature) during your day and try to think of how they fit in and work in the world.

If we stop and look at god as a person who just tossed together the world in 7 days, actually 6, he took Sunday off?!?!?!?!

There's only so many hours in a week.;)

And if god worked in a union shop?

He have to have his overtime approved.

Sometimes even god needs his time card signed.;)

[kokopup]

Richard

Check this out.

Look at every system that makes up a body.

Endocrine, Vascular, digestive, nervous, musclar, skeletal.....

If you separate them into the basics?

They still are fantastic sub-systems that all add up to the human form. What a blend of fantastic engineering.

These are just a few of the bodies systems that under normal circumstances work synergistically together. I believe that the body's Medical science is just that, a pure science. The problem, at this point in time, is they haven't figured it out yet. In recent years great strives have taken place in man's understanding of the human body but there is still a long way to go. In my dealings with doctors over the years( and there have been many) I have been exposed to Doctors who previously were Engineers. These were the only doctors that I have had dealings with that took a systems approach to the Body. Most doctors treat only pieces rather than looking at it as a complex synergistic machine. This is especially true when writing prescriptions for a
given SYMPTOM. In any system if you just treat symptoms you create problems in other parts of the system. You must find the problem before you can effectively treat it. Most of our Pharmaceutical industry is geared to just treating symptoms. We have an entire industry asleep at the switch. IMHO.