Extremely disappointed in the government and our large breed dog owners in Florida

[Indigo Bully Connection]

I'm extremely disappointed in the Pit Bull/Large Breed dog community today. Not only did 15 opposers show up including ourselves, but the most of the speakers that represented us as a community spoke ignorantly. Obviously the catch phrase "punish the deed not the breed" was inserted in everyones speach... but these fools wanted to blame chaining and training dogs to be vicious. The senators were so misinformed with their facts... by the time they got to a lady who knew what the heck she was talking about they were irritated and rushed her. One senator through out the 1000 psi bite "statistic" in comparrison to a chihuahua arguement... most of the senators sat there and smiled and chuckled to themselves in a mocking manor at these people... ignorant or not, they deserved to be heard and respected. This is bad news Florida... bad news. I called my vets office to warn them about it being passed, to let them know that the Senator who proposed the bill is right out of Duval County who stated clearly many times before the bill was disgussed "We are talking about PIT BULLS, not any other breed but PIT BULLS". (the vets office was still ignorant enough to think they are safe because they all live in the neighboring county, Clay County) Later to be able to fall back on the vagueness of the bill that was proposed which didn't specify a particular breed. I could go on and on about how we as a community failed our dogs, as well as how our government has failed us.

I cannot count how many times they scoffed/complained about the influx of emails and telephone calls that were placed because of this bill. That is not enough people, it's time to get off your butt infront of that computer and down to the government agencies... get one on one.

These senators were throwing out recent media coverage about pit bull attacks. One that I know in particular was about the 3 year old little girl in Ocala, Florida who was attacked by a "pit bull"... in reality it was an attack from an American Bulldog.


Also, I kinda lost count with all of the "yes" votes, but I do know I counted at least 4 "Nos"

The concept that people seem to not grasp is that... it's only my dogs first, and then comes the rest of the population of dogs over 35 pounds. With this bill now that it has been passed with it's vagueness is a sure fire catch .22 for all of us pet owners.

IDK what the next step is for us to do... I just know something needs to be done. While I was there I had the pleasure of meeting Ernest Sims from the Detroit Lions who is completely on our side and is willing to fight the big fight along side of us, but the question still lies... where do we go from here? I'm coming to you guys for help/suggestions on where to begin. As a Floridian I've never had to face the reality that it can and will happen to us until this week... even then... being in communities like this... it still didn't pertain to ME ya know? I'm ready and motivated to do what needs to be done reguardless of the sacrifice.

[IRescue452]

Sorry to hear. Did anybody mention that golden retrievers are in third place for bite cases while pitties are in 14th?

[Indigo Bully Connection]

No, no one mentioned that. The only remedial comparisson that came up time and time again was a Chi vs. a pit bull... my big arguement about all of that is... when a pit bull is bred to type, there is zero tollerance for human aggression reguardless of the circumstances. A pit bull has been bred specifically to be human friendly for hundreds of years because of the necessary hands on activity which has to be done durring the old days in the box. Any pit bull who shows human aggression is what we call a Cull and one of two things need to be done with that dog... 1) put down by a licsensed veterinarian or 2) spayed/neutered to remove that trait from the gene pool and kept from any opportunity to bite a person.

This really is bigger than just my kind of dogs, it's a lot of peoples types of dogs on the line especially since the vagueness of the verbage in the bill.

[Suki Wingy]

I generally like to step back and stay out of the way when it come to politics but it's times like these that really make me angry because it's as if people know they're being ignorant but they just don't care to actually try and understand the facts in any case. In school I wrote a research paper on why breed specific legislation in any form just is not practical and there is no way anyone can unbiasedly look at the research and still think it's a good idea. This is coming from someone who finds it really hard to "take sides" or throw myself into any cause to thoroughly.

[kokopup]

I am neither for or against Pit bull terriers as a breed but the statistic on deaths
and maiming for them is not good. Dog bites are the number one reason people go to emergency rooms. The fact is any dog will bite if having a bad day or is bothered while eating or sleeping. The facts are also there that show when a Pit bull or Rotty has a bad day some one is maned or killed. Read the statistics by breed. http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

I think there were just a few more Pit Bull Maiming and deaths than Golden Retrievers.

[CountryWolf07]

I am neither for or against Pit bull terriers as a breed but the statistic on deaths
and maiming for them is not good. Dog bites are the number one reason people go to emergency rooms. The fact is any dog will bite if having a bad day or is bothered while eating or sleeping. The facts are also there that show when a Pit bull or Rotty has a bad day some one is maned or killed. Read the statistics by breed. http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

I think there were just a few more Pit Bull Maiming and deaths than Golden Retrievers.

Agreed. I have nothing against Pit Bulls either, I know they are wonderful dogs, it's just too many people in this world who have raised them to be 'viewed' as "mean" dogs, really.
And I have to say, I did NOT know that fact about Golden Retrievers.. interesting.

[IRescue452]

A pit bulls bite force is also no more than 235psi. There are no domestic dogs whose bite is more than 350 psi. I think some people are accidentally using the measurement in newtons if they are in the thousands.

[kokopup]

IRescue452

A pit bulls bite force is also no more than 235psi. There are no domestic dogs whose bite is more than 350 psi. I think some people are accidentally using the measurement in newtons if they are in the thousands.

I don't think the issue here is how much force there is in a Pit Bull bite. The issue is that they maim and kill more people than any breed and they are not predictable. Read the full writeup in the link :http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

[Alysser]

IRescue452


I don't think the issue here is how much force there is in a Pit Bull bite. The issue is that they maim and kill more people than any breed and they are not predictable. Read the full writeup in the link :http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

The fact that they're "not predictable" is complete BS, seriously you actually believe that? I've been around both small dogs and Pitbulls (I volunteer at a shelter) and I feel much safer in a cage with a most of the Pitbulls then some of those small dogs - some of the smaller dogs are absolutely psycho. I will never ever believe that a Pitbull is more unpredictable then any other breed of dog, because that's simply just not true. Granted, there are dogs who are unpredictable than any other dog, and I am sure some of them are pitbulls, but these dogs are in every breed. That's completely unjustified to say, that the entire breed is not predictable. Put similar variables in a situation with different breeds, they'll all become slightly less predictable.

[kokopup]

Alysser

The fact that they're "not predictable" is complete BS, seriously you actually believe that? I've been around both small dogs and Pitbulls (I volunteer at a shelter) and I feel much safer in a cage with a most of the Pitbulls then some of those small dogs - some of the smaller dogs are absolutely psycho. I will never ever believe that a Pitbull is more unpredictable then any other breed of dog, because that's simply just not true. Granted, there are dogs who are unpredictable than any other dog, and I am sure some of them are pitbulls, but these dogs are in every breed. That's completely unjustified to say, that the entire breed is not predictable. Put similar variables in a situation with different breeds, they'll all become slightly less predictable.


I agree that many dogs are unpredictable. i will not turn my back on my sons Chihuahua and i see it every day. There are many small dogs that I trust less than a PIt Bull. Without going in detail , I also have first hand experience with the predictablity of the APBT.

When I say unpredictable I am talking about having a pattern that tells you that the dog is dangerous. Most states have a one bite law that allows one bite before the dog is put down on the second bite. Unfortunately with the APBT the first bit is one of maiming or killing in two thirds of the documented cases. In these cases the dog had no prior history of being aggressive.

If you have a small high strung dog and a child rushes up and pets the dog, there is a very good chance that the child will be bitten. This dog is predictable and the owner has a responsibility to protect the child in how the dog is approached. I know most children rush in while the adult will usually ask if it is ok to pet your dog. With my dog Koko I would be up a creek if she was a biter because she is a kid magnet. Now I would say she is unpredictable if one day for no reason she attacked one of the kids that approached her. This is exactly the behavior that this study documented. where in two thirds of APBT attacks occur with no prior history.

I have documented proof with the sheriff that in addition to people they also kill or maim other dogs or farm animals.

[IRescue452]

The majority of dog bites are from family pets. None of those cases are predictable. I actually think a pit bite is more predictable because people are a little more cautios around them. You get bit by a labrador and I guarentee you'll be surprised they have teeth that work. A beloved family pet of any breed is much less predictable because you don't expect them to bite.

[kokopup]

IRescue452


The majority of dog bites are from family pets. None of those cases are predictable. I actually think a pit bite is more predictable because people are a little more cautios around them. You get bit by a labrador and I guarentee you'll be surprised they have teeth that work. A beloved family pet of any breed is much less predictable because you don't expect them to bite.

What you say is very true, that most dog bits are from family pets and I imagine some of the more social dogs are involved. Dog bite is the first single thing that is treated in the emergency room. There are literally thousands of cases every year. It the majority of cases there is a simple puncture or abrasion. The only cases that are closely documented is where a maiming or death is involved. If you look at overall statistics the majority of ALL bites are done by an over reactive family pet. I know that a Labrador and Golden both have very sharp teeth that could inflict much pain. I have to pry Koko mouth open every day to administer medicine. I have had her growl at
me because I disturbed her sleep of she percieved I was getting her food. I
knew that I should not proceed because she said NO with her growl. Kids get
bitten by the family pet because they do not take that NO seriously. There
would probably be more Retriever bits that any other mainly because they are the most popular family pet. A simple nip from a lab can inflict enough damage to require a EM visit. The problem with the APBT is either the No
is not given or not understood and the APBT doesn't settle for a simple nip.
They maim or Kill over 30 a year now in the US and Canada. That is Up from
just ten years ago.

And restate your Barons Quote

"There are two things which cannot be attacked in front: ignorance and narrow-mindedness. They can only be shaken by the simple development of the contrary qualities. They will not bear discussion."

Lord John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton

[Indigo Bully Connection]

Won't settle for a simple nip??? tell that to my finger yesterday when i got a cut as big as a hang nail because my girl was too excited for a treat hahah...

ANYWAYS, back on topic.... this is not just about Pit Bulls... love em... hate em... I couldn't give a care less! Not too long ago the American Pit Bull Terrier was the mascott of this country, not the Bald Eagle... the APBT. This is about all medium/large breed dogs. Like I said before... yes, it's my dogs first, then labs, corgis, collies, huskies and only the Lord knows what else someone in the United States of America will find to complain about next.

With this all set aside... breeds and such jibber jabber... do you guys honestly feel that it is right to take away my rights as to which type of dog I own as an United States citizen? I know I would never ever evvvver say that was the right thing to do if the roles were reversed... and trust me... one day it will be.

EDIT: I have one, and am in the process of getting three more of my dogs their CGC's so that when and if this becomes law in my county my dogs don't get put down for being just another happy dog.

Have you guys seen the photos from the Denver Pit Bull Ban?

[Lady's Human]

Not too long ago the American Pit Bull Terrier was the mascott of this country, not the Bald Eagle... the APBT.

When exactly was this?

[Indigo Bully Connection]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_Stubby

http://hubpages.com/hub/Famous_Pit_Bulls

Before my time with the dogs, but they have not always been stigmatized like this.

[Lady's Human]

Okay, there have been famous APBTs.....and famous GSDs, and famous mutts...

Doesn't make them the mascot of the country, however.

[kokopup]

Indigo Bully Connection

Not too long ago the American Pit Bull Terrier was the mascott of this country, not the Bald Eagle... the APBT.


The bald Eagle is more than a Mascot, It is the Symbol of this nation.

Your Sargent Stubby (1916) at most was a mascot of Georgetown law school.

The Bald Eagle national significance dates back to June 20, 1782, when the Continental Congress officially adopted the current design for the seal including a Bald Eagle grasping arrows and an olive branch with its claw. Some states had earlier done so in 1778.

In 1784, after the end of the Revolutionary war, Benjamin Franklin wrote a famous letter to his daughter from Paris criticizing the choice and suggesting the Wild Turkey's character as a desirable trait:

[Indigo Bully Connection]

I appologise for not wording it correctly, I typed in haste. These dogs were very influencial to the United States and often the choice pet for families.

Could we please stay on topic about Breed Specific Legislation? I didn't come here to have a Pit Bull fight. That's not my style. I came here to express my frustrations about us being devided as an animal community, and hopefully get more people on board to help all of us responsible pet owners.

[kokopup]

Indigo

Could we please stay on topic about Breed Specific Legislation? I didn't come here to have a Pit Bull fight. That's not my style. I came here to express my frustrations about us being devided as an animal community, and hopefully get more people on board to help all of us responsible pet owners.


I have no problems with any breed. I have become very upset with the ownership of all breeds. Here In Alabama I have not found, Not to say there aren't any, responsible owners of the Pit Bull. I ride my bike all over this state and have had some pretty close calls with many breeds of dogs that want to take me off my bike. Mtn Biking takes you to some very remote parts of rural America. I have not found in my travels any owners that did not have these dogs for any purpose but to Protect property. Some are restrained and some are not. The ones left unrestrained and allowed to attack what they perceive to be on their turf bothers me. I had a neighbor that let her Pit run lose to do what ever. I have posted my problems with this neighbor before so I want rehash history.

Unfortunately the people that I have had contact with, have the Pit for one reason. If it isn't mean they make it mean through of lack of socialization. I have had these owners tell me point blank they didn't want a nice pet, the meaner the better.

I am all for making any legislation about dogs be put on the OWNER. If the owner is not responsible then the pets should be taken away and put in a responsible home. This pertains to humane living conditions, adequate food and water and socialization.

It is unfortunate that the Micheal Vick's of the world have given the Pit Bull such a bad reputation. In my part of the world Dog fighting is a fact of life. I remember well when Petey of Our Gang signified all that was good with the breed. I am afraid those days have past because a new Breed of OWNER has surfaced. The responsible PIT owners are out numbered, in this area anyway, by the irresponsible owner. (IMO, disclaimer) It is a shame.:(

[Indigo Bully Connection]

I completely agree with everything you've said

Unfortunately, this is the harsh reality that I face daily... I definitely would never force my dogs or my breed of choice onto anyone... but on the same note, if someone is even concidering getting one of these dogs and i catch wind of it they do get an ear full lmao.

It's disgusting to me that people look at these dogs as some kind of theft deterrent... yeah, it works right now because of the media and the label that they have slapped on my dogs, but what happens when (hopefully my rights will still be here) the general cesus moves onto the next breed??? My house will be ran sacked by theives because the fear is no longer there. I let anyone know who is contemplating getting one of these dogs not to get disspointed when it doesn't turn out the way you wanted it to haha! I do want ya'll to know that I am not ignorant to those few "problem children" out there that make it to the 10 o clock news...

It's also so frustrating to me to see these dogs who are obvious mixes get labeled as an APBT... IDK if ya'll know this or not, but a real APBT will never reach more than 60 pounds.... eh, I can step back on this... there was one dog in history whos weight was 75 pounds when he was fat, but when he was exercised he weighed about 60-65, but he was concidered a freak of nature... this dog was named Colby's Pinscher
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=5650

I know a couple of great people out of Alabama... 2 couples actually, both are located close to Birmingham, but are on different ends of the scope as to which kinds of dogs they like... one couple like American Bullies (like my dogs... more showy and big) and one of them like Game lined (tend to be smaller around 35-45 pounds) dogs for working purposes like weight pull and hunting.

Mike Vick is a whooole can of worms himself for me hahhaa... What I do know is that people who are seriously into that realm of the dog world... the ones that are not in it for the money or a glorious name for themselves are not the ones who are adding to our issues (I DO believe it is wrong 100% either way)... if anything they are the least of our problems because they keep their dogs contained and out of sight in fear of getting in trouble. It's the idiots who get busted doing this monsterous stuff that we all have to account for. Does that make sense?

[bckrazy]

Kokopup, I agree with your arguement in a lot of ways... Pit Bulls DO attract unsavory characters much of the time. Also why shelters are flooded with lots of good, sweet Pit Bulls who will die there. :(

But, do you really think all of those skeezballs are going to just decide that dog ownership is not for them when they aren't allowed to own Pit Bulls anymore? No. They'll just move on to the next breed. Probably a breed that is not as predisposed to human friendliness. Can you imagine if the new "it" guard/fighting dog was a real, working guardian breed, like a Fila? Oh vey.

The issue is not the dogs... the issue is irresponsible people allowed to do what they please with their dogs, a lack of law enforcement and a lack of public education. The breed of the dog is irrelevant. I have had far more scary encounters (both human and dog) with Labs than Pit Bulls, and lots of experience with both breeds. In fact I've never met a HA Pit Bull out of hundreds and I work with dogs in a city with PLENTY of badly raised and irresponsibly owned Pitties. That's my experience.

[MonicanHonda]

People are already moving on. My hometown is definitely riddled with not so well pit bulls and pit bull fighting. I have seen such an increase in cane corsos, it's not funny.

[Twisterdog]

This is such a tough subject for me, I'm not even sure I should jump in here. *sigh*

I have owned a boarding kennel and grooming shop for fourteen years, and worked with shelters and rescues for decades. I have boarded, groomed, rescued, owned, etc. thousands upon thousands of dogs over this time period. My personal experience: I have never met a human aggresive pit bull. Dog aggresive, yes. I have never been afraid of a pit bull. I have rescued several, and board hundreds. Big, sweet mushy babies, in my personal experience. My son's dog's mother is a pit mix, even though you would never know it by looking at him. I personally like the breed.

I have been bit by a lab, a golden, a GSD and a shar pei. I have been bit by innumerable lhasas, poodles, poms, chihuahuas. But, to be fair, they didn't bite me because they are small dogs, ankle biters, neurotic, or any of the other sterotypes that some people attach to small dogs. They bit me because I was grooming them ... brushing out a mat, clipping toe nails, any number of frightening things. I dislike the unfair stereotypes attached to small dogs as much as dislike the ones attached to pit bulls. But I've never been bit by a pit bull.

I think BSL is a sad, sad thing. It's a terrible shame that humans have created, and then abused, an animal to the point that it now terrifies the general public. Yes, the media carries some blame for overdramatization. But the media only publishes what sells. And ignorant people who refuse to be swayed by the facts carry some blame. But that's nothing new, Joe Q. Public has always been an ignorant, opinionated dude. Breaks my heart to think of the sweet family pets and their families affected by BSL.

OTOH ... facts are facts, and sometimes the facts hurt. The fact is that insurance companies won't insure property owners who allow certain breeds of dogs to live on their property. Therefore the property owners must forbid these breeds or lose their insurance. Without insurance you can't operate. The insurance companies base their decisions and rates on numerical statistics and facts, not guesswork. Actuaries compile detailed statistics on every facet of insurable life ... including dog bites per breed. And the fact is, certain breeds cause more severe bites than other breeds. Chihuahuas might in fact snap more than pit bulls, but the damage done by a pit bull bite obviously far outweighs the chihuahua. One can find a website that professes to have the "right" statistics, and claiming extremes on both ends of the BSL spectrum. But the fact of the matter is, sadly, the humans have created dogs who can be extremely dangerous, some breeds much more dangerous than others. Terribly sad and indeed unfair that nice dogs and families suffer for that.

Not everyone likes dogs, or are interested in doing hundreds of hours of research about them. The average American, not in the dog fancy, doesn't want to wade through thousands of pages of conflicting arguments about a certain breed. They want quick information about something they consider a potential threat to their safety. They look up statistics from a reputable source, like the CDC, their insurance company, their attorney, etc. And what they find does not honestly look good for certain breeds. Yes, they could take the time to meet and get to know a particular dog of a particular breed ... but those stats are still there. What really is your average American to think then, confronted with stats like these? (http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf) If it wasn't dogs, which I know a lot about, but, say, snowmobiles, which I know nothng about ... I'd read the safety statistics and say, "Oh man, 30-50% of deaths on snowmobiles are from Brand X and Brand Y. Well, I won't be buying those two brands or letting my kids on one!" Right? Sad for the dogs, but understandable for the people, too.

[Vette]

Bah. i think it sucks.

we have enough racism in the world. we dont need breedism too.

[Animalhouse26]

I am not even getting into this debate here..as I have been doing the fight on another forum..all 19pages of it.. *sigh* But all I am gonna say is.. If my Family member went to jail for Raping and or murdering someone.. Am I also at fault?

[bckrazy]

If it wasn't dogs, which I know a lot about, but, say, snowmobiles, which I know nothng about ... I'd read the safety statistics and say, "Oh man, 30-50% of deaths on snowmobiles are from Brand X and Brand Y. Well, I won't be buying those two brands or letting my kids on one!" Right? Sad for the dogs, but understandable for the people, too.

Sure.

But, what if, 99% of those deaths were caused by people drunkenly driving the snowmobiles? Would you still blame the snowmobiles or rationalize and REALIZE that it's the PEOPLE who are attracted to those snowmobiles, through no fault of the snowmobiles? :p What if those snowmobiles also happen to be some of the most stable, sweetest, most fun snowmobiles out there?

[Twisterdog]

Sure.

But, what if, 99% of those deaths were caused by people drunkenly driving the snowmobiles? Would you still blame the snowmobiles or rationalize and REALIZE that it's the PEOPLE who are attracted to those snowmobiles, through no fault of the snowmobiles? :p What if those snowmobiles also happen to be some of the most stable, sweetest, most fun snowmobiles out there?

I didn't say it was right. I just said it is human nature. If one is not deeply interested in a subject, they are NOT going to spend the vast amounts of time necessary to properly research said subject. I honestly probably wouldn't spend the time necessary to delve into the demographics of each brand of snowmobile ridership. I don't care that much. And the average person who is not that into dogs isn't going to either. Not saying that's fair by any means, but it's nonetheless a fact.

[Snowhound]

Hi, have only just joined this site so hello to all. You've no doubt heard it all before, but I'll say it again - there are no bad dogs, just bad dog owners (a bit like children - they're potentially good but it depends on the parenting.) I have owned an Anatolian Shepherd Dog, a Doberman, a Rottweiler, and currently own a Leonberger. None of my dogs have ever been a menace as I trained them well. Here in New Zealand where I live, the public want certain breeds like Pitbulls & Rotties removed from society as there have been several attacks on children/adults - but it isn't the breed of dog, it's the owners who are to blame. Unfortunately some owners of these breeds of dog train them to fight & be aggressive & treat them badly. That is no reason to ban a breed of dog, but perhaps we should ban certain types of people (if only we could!)

Occasionally, just as in the human race, one can come across a sociopathic/psychopathic dog - read a great book once written by dog trainers who came across one - it was one of those ankle-biting small terrier dogs which had to be put down for continual biting of anyone who came near it. I'm sure this must happen in all forms of life occasionally.

But, overall, be the Alpha Dog to any breed & it will grow up to respect you & others around it I like to believe.

Snowhound

[Indigo Bully Connection]

Great news you guys! With the help of Cheryl Caragan (a wonderful APBT breeder in WA), Ernie Sims father, and two BSL reps (one from the AKC) had a sit down meeting last week with the department of Agriculture and put a stop to this bill! They are all currently working together to come up with more options for dangerous dog laws, but they have let go of the breed specific part which I am totally stoked about!

[Suki Wingy]

Oh that's good news!