An Officer's Obligation

[lizbud]

Is this true only for Officers?



Matthew AlexanderLeader of the interrogations team that located Abu Musab al Zarqawi
Posted April 28, 2009 | 05:46 PM (EST)

An Officer's Obligation -- Say No to Torture

"Once an Army is involved in war, there is a beast in every fighting man which begins tugging at its chains... A good officer must learn early on how to keep the beast under control both in his men and in himself."

-- General George C. Marshall



As a former active duty military officer, it is troubling to me that other military officers followed unlawful orders to torture or abuse prisoners. Military officers have a sacred responsibility that is embedded in their oath of office: "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same..."

The Constitution specifically prohibits cruelty to any person in the Eighth Amendment ("Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"). Those officers who ordered, authorized, or were complicit in the torture and abuse of prisoners violated their oath of office. The United States has a rich history of military ethics dating back to General George Washington during the Revolutionary War. According to General Washington, "Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any prisoner...by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country." He said this in 1775, during a time when the birth of our nation hung in the balance.

It is the role of military officers, as first line supervisors, to ensure that we live up to our American principles in the conduct of every tactic we use in war. If an infantry platoon is ordered to take a hill and fails to do so because of enemy resistance, an order is not given to break out flame throwers and mustard gas in violation of the Law of Armed Conflict. Instead, we leverage our American ingenuity within the rules, we use our intellect, and we preserve through our courage to fight in accordance with our principles.

As I led an interrogations team in Iraq chasing the notorious former leader of Al Qaida, Abu Musab Al Zarqawi, we encountered detainees who did not provide us valuable intelligence information. We used those men as opportunities to refine our approaches and to improve our interrogation skills within the rules. It was those improved skills that we later used to break the terrorists within Zarqawi's network who, ultimately, sold him out.

We are Americans and we are smart enough to win the battle of wits in the interrogation room. We cannot afford to doubt our abilities. We should focus on improving our methods within the legal framework of Geneva Conventions and the U.S. Constitution. And military officers have a heightened responsibility to effect change and to lead our interrogator corps to its full potential. We are smart enough.

[Puckstop31]

No, every Soldier, Sailor, Airman and Marine is obligated to abide by the UCMJ and the Laws of Land Warfare.

Now if only all our elected officials would do the same thing.... UPHOLD and defend the Constitution.

[lizbud]

I wanted to find out if all military (Officers & enlisted) folks had a duty
to disobey a unlawful order. I think I found an answer....

http://www.historians.org/projects/giroundtable/Criminals/Criminals7.htm

[Puckstop31]

I wanted to find out if all military (Officers & enlisted) folks had a duty
to disobey a unlawful order. I think I found an answer....

http://www.historians.org/projects/giroundtable/Criminals/Criminals7.htm

Interesting article. But I don't think there is any firm conclusion in it. As I read it, it presents a varied group of 'answers'.


You say you think you found the answer. What do you think the answer is? I am genuinely curious.

I'll offer my opinion, having served in combat. It's hard to describe the feelings, pressure and emotions you experience when in direct combat. In some situations, it might be "easy" to determine what is and what is not an unlawful order. In many others, it might not be. Also, from an lawyers point of view, it would be very easy in some instances to make a very viable "temporary insanity" defence. For instance, the day my very good friend was killed in action....by a kid....we were trying to help feed. Had I caved in to my most base of emotions that day, one might very well label me a criminal. Lets just say it is very easy to judge people who do certain things in such situations. So we need to be very careful to not make snap judgements whne it comes to accusations of such crimes. This is not to say that such crimes happen as I am sure they do.

Now, as for non combat issues... "Torture" Lets put this issue to bed. The US Attorney General, in conjunction with the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the JAG departments of all 4 branches need to come up with a FIRM definition of what, to the United States, torture is. We own that, at the very least, to the fine men and women in the varied branches of our intelligence community.

Finally, what do you think about charging Bush Administration people with "war crimes" for torture? Do you really think setting a precedent like that is a good thing? By that I mean being able to make a crime out of policy issues?

[lizbud]

Now, as for non combat issues... "Torture" Lets put this issue to bed. The US Attorney General, in conjunction with the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the JAG departments of all 4 branches need to come up with a FIRM definition of what, to the United States, torture is. We own that, at the very least, to the fine men and women in the varied branches of our intelligence community.




Violating the Constitution is just a policy issue??? It is more than that.
Waterboarding is torture. We actually conducted trials (war crimes) and
punished Japanese, some with death, after WW II. We can not change
our stance on definition of torture, when it suits us.

[Puckstop31]

Violating the Constitution is just a policy issue??? It is more than that.

Interesting... I'd love to take this down the road of current economic policies... Ya can't have it both ways Liz. Either you support a strict constructionist view of the Constitution, or you don't. That includes the 2nd Amendment and more importantly, the 10th. There has not been a Federal Government since William McKinley, that really respected the Constitution. Their actions or their tolerance of actions say it all.

Remember, a opinion poll.... An election victory... Does not grant carte blanche for a elected offical or group of elected officials to ignore the Constitution. So in a way, I agree with you. But you have to be consistent.


Waterboarding is torture. We actually conducted trials (war crimes) and
punished Japanese, some with death, after WW II. We can not change
our stance on definition of torture, when it suits us.

If the United States has formally defined what is and what is not torture, I have not seen it. If it has been formally and legally defined, could you refer me to it?

I agree with you that the United States should not torture. So, to help our intelligence community do their job it should be formally and legally defined.

Also, do you have a comment about President Obama's administration possibly setting the precedent that it is OK to prosecute policy actions of previous administrations?

[Edwina's Secretary]

It sometimes surprises me that we exepct our politicians and military (and everyone but us somehow) to behave better than the average person does.

The military is made up of ordinary citizen who have volunteered to do a particular job.

Politicians are ordinary citizens who have volunteered to be elected to do a particular job.

Neither group is made up of people who are better or worse than the rest of "us." They are just a sampling of "us."

And some of "us" will obey an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

Some of "us" will give an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

We cannot expect more of "them" than we are willing to expect of "us."

[Puckstop31]

It sometimes surprises me that we exepct our politicians and military (and everyone but us somehow) to behave better than the average person does.

Well... Yes. They all raised their hands and swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States. Once upon a time, a persons WORD meant something.


The military is made up of ordinary citizen who have volunteered to do a particular job.

I believe the military is made of EXTRAORDINARY citizens. Citizens who have willingly sacrificed a bit of their freedom to protect everybody elses.


Politicians are ordinary citizens who have volunteered to be elected to do a particular job.

Now only if they would ACT like it. Rather than act like they are better and smarter than us.....


Neither group is made up of people who are better or worse than the rest of "us." They are just a sampling of "us."

And some of "us" will obey an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

Some of "us" will give an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

We cannot expect more of "them" than we are willing to expect of "us."

So... Are you defending the use of torture? Or are you making an excuse for it?

[blue]

So with ES' argument, we shouldnt hold police officers to a higher standard either?

[Edwina's Secretary]

So with ES' argument, we shouldnt hold police officers to a higher standard either?

How interesting Blue, that you think of holding some people to a lower standard...rather than holding all of us to a higher standard.

Predictable, but interesting.

[blue]

How interesting Blue, that you think of holding some people to a lower standard...rather than holding all of us to a higher standard.

Predictable, but interesting.

Please expand on your logic.

ETA: Where have I said we should all be held to the same standard, higher or lower?

[lizbud]

If the United States has formally defined what is and what is not torture, I have not seen it. If it has been formally and legally defined, could you refer me to it?


I would have loved to discuss the US Constitution, that is before I
read this quote. If you seriously don't know the answer already, there is
no chance of intelligent discourse. I don't have time to be your tudor.

[Puckstop31]

I would have loved to discuss the US Constitution, that is before I
read this quote. If you seriously don't know the answer already, there is
no chance of intelligent discourse. I don't have time to be your tudor.


First, its tutor not tudor. The Tudor's were a royal house that once ruled England. FYI. :)

Next, it was a simple question. You first quote an article, stating you "think" you found the answer, but did not say what that answer is. Then you stated "waterboarding IS torture". You said it with a confidence that lead me to believe you saw something I had not. So I just did little research and I now know that there is a legal definition of torture. Ya learn something new everyday.

Next, with all due respect, I find it funny that you, of all people, are saying "there is no chance of intelligent discourse." Thats all I ever wanted out of you. Like I say all the time, I seek out differing points of view. Yet you never seem to actually tell us what you think in threads like this. Why is that?

Also, again with all due respect, but if you can actually tutor me about the Constitution, I welcome it. I'll even start a fresh thread in a bit. I say this because I maintain a history degree, one where I spent most of my senior electives studying world governments. Coupled with a adult life long intrest into history. I like to think I am pretty well read. Now, don't take this like I am posturing, because I also know well enough that I don't know everything. Thus, I seek out differing points of view. I would happily welcome a discussion with you.

[lizbud]

I say this because I maintain a history degree, one where I spent most of my senior electives studying world governments. Coupled with a adult life long intrest into history. I like to think I am pretty well read. Now, don't take this like I am posturing, because I also know well enough that I don't know everything. Thus, I seek out differing points of view. I would happily welcome a discussion with you.



First, it's "interest" not "intrest" . Now just how do you" maintain" a
degree? Do they take it back if you don't change the oil every 5,000 miles?

[Puckstop31]

First, it's "interest" not "intrest" .

Touche'


Now just how do you" maintain" a
degree? Do they take it back if you don't change the oil every 5,000 miles?

Dip...Dodge...Duck...and.......Dodge. That was great movie, eh?

[blue]

This is funny. Thread didnt turn out the way Liz was trolling for so she takes hers toys and refuses to play.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Now just how do you" maintain" a
degree? Do they take it back if you don't change the oil every 5,000 miles?

My degree has an unconditional warranty...;);) But I do have to rotate the tires every now and then!:D:D

[blue]

My degree has an unconditional warranty...;);) But I do have to rotate the tires every now and then!:D:D

I gotta admit, I chuckled.

[Puckstop31]

How about we define "maintaining" a degree in that I USE it. I take the knowledge, research skills and wisdom I earned in getting that degree and keep the edge sharp.

Better? Can we get back to the point now?

[RICHARD]

I think us civilians should STFU about situations we suspect we know oodles about. If anyone has a problem with the way we treat those morons I ask that you adopt/sponsor one in your home this summer.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I think us civilians should STFU about situations we suspect we know oodles about. If anyone has a problem with the way we treat those morons I ask that you adopt/sponsor one in your home this summer.


Hey great idea. No military has EVER needed civilian oversight. Nope, nope...NO MILITARY has EVER gone too far....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[lizbud]

So I just did little research and I now know that there is a legal definition of torture. Ya learn something new everyday.




Better late then never I suppose. So what did you turn to for answers?
How did you become enlightened? I hope you took lots of notes while you
were at it, remember there will be a test on Monday.:D

[Puckstop31]

Better late then never I suppose. So what did you turn to for answers?
How did you become enlightened? I hope you took lots of notes while you
were at it, remember there will be a test on Monday.:D

You are a bad loser Liz. LOL


But a GREAT Dodge Ball player. Do you really think people don't notice how you dodge the issues?

[blue]

It sometimes surprises me that we exepct our politicians and military (and everyone but us somehow) to behave better than the average person does.

The military is made up of ordinary citizen who have volunteered to do a particular job.

Politicians are ordinary citizens who have volunteered to be elected to do a particular job.

Neither group is made up of people who are better or worse than the rest of "us." They are just a sampling of "us."

And some of "us" will obey an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

Some of "us" will give an illegal order and some of "us" will not.

We cannot expect more of "them" than we are willing to expect of "us."

From the mister that made an example that the military shouldnt be held to a higher standard.


Hey great idea. No military has EVER needed civilian oversight. Nope, nope...NO MILITARY has EVER gone too far....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[lizbud]

You are a bad loser Liz. LOL


But a GREAT Dodge Ball player. Do you really think people don't notice how you dodge the issues?


Aww now, don't pout.:( When you grow up a little more, arm your self
with facts, people will be willing to take the time to discuss grownup issues
with you.

[Puckstop31]

Aww now, don't pout.:( When you grow up a little more, arm your self
with facts, people will be willing to take the time to discuss grownup issues
with you.



Now THATS funny. Thanks Liz...

[Edwina's Secretary]

From the mister that made an example that the military shouldnt be held to a higher standard.

"Trust, but verify"

[blue]

"Trust, but verify"

Dont you mean. Товарищ, доверие, но проверяй.

[blue]

As I said in my statement of December 9, 2007: 'I was briefed on interrogation techniques the (Bush) administration was considering using in the future. The administration advised that legal counsel for both the CIA and the Department of Justice had concluded that the techniques were legal.

Source (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/05/08/pelosi-says-told-interrogation-methods-lawful/).

So Liz, what did you find that contradicts Mrs Pelosi, on what constitutes torture?

And ES, it seems we cant доверие Mrs Pelosi and we cant проверяй her stance either...

[Edwina's Secretary]

Dont you mean. Товарищ, доверие, но проверяй.

No.

[blue]

No.

So expound on what you where trying to say then.

Because , Comrade, what you said was, доверие, и проверить.

[Edwina's Secretary]

:D:D:D In this thread you have called me "mister" and "comrade."

Too, too funny!

You want me to expand on what I said...okay.

I said "no."

[blue]

I asked you to expound, not expand. Im sure you know the difference.

You have called me much worse then Ma'am, or enemy.

BTW,


Trust, but Verify

Originated from....


Доверие, но проверяй.

I guess its fitting for you to "quote" a communist party member.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I asked you to expound, not expand. Im sure you know the difference.

You have called me much worse then Ma'am, or enemy.

BTW,



Originated from....



I guess its fitting for you to "quote" a communist party member.

All right...you want it you get it.

"Expand on" is synonymous for "expound."

Look it up.

I quoted Ronald Reagan. Not sure when he became a communist. Oh yeah...here's the link....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_Verify

You are quoting, I think...I do not read Russian...an old Russian saying. So did Ronald. Good enough for Ronnie...good enough for me.

Russian does not equal communist.

Now...go sleep it off.

[blue]

All right...you want it you get it.

Expand on" is synonymous for "expound."

Look it up.

I quoted Ronald Reagan. Not sure when he became a communist.

You are quoting, I think...I do not read Russian...an old Russian saying. So did Ronald. Good enough for Ronnie...good enough for me.

Russian does not equal communist.

Now...go sleep it off.

Main Entry: expound
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: talk about in great detail
Synonyms: clarify, comment, construe, delineate, describe, discourse, elucidate, enucleate, exemplify, explain, explicate, express, illustrate, interpret, present, set forth, spell out, state, unfold


Main Entry: explain
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: To make understandable.
Synonyms: construe, decipher, explicate, interpret, spell out

Roget's II: The New Thesaurus, Third Edition
by the Editors of the American Heritage® Dictionary.
Copyright © 2003, 1995. Published by Houghton Mifflin. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source

Link (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/expound).

ETA: so there isnt any confusion, real or otherwise.

Main Entry: expand
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: extend, augment
Synonyms: aggrandize, amplify, beef up*, bloat, blow up*, bolster, broaden, bulk up, burgeon, detail, develop, diffuse, dilate, distend, elaborate, embellish, enlarge, explicate, fan out*, fatten, fill out, grow, heighten, hike, increase, inflate, lengthen, magnify, mount, multiply, mushroom, open, open out, outspread, pad, piggyback, prolong, protract, puff up, pyramid*, slap on, soup up, spread, spread out, stretch, stretch out, swell, tack on, thicken, unfold, unfurl, unravel, unroll, upsurge, wax*, widen

Ronald Reagan used it often when dealing with the Russians for a reason, it originated from a Communist Party member. Your history is weak.

ETA: I hate to be an AH but I couldnt let it go. I never said being Russian equals a communist, you came to that on your own.

And Im not your husband, you dont get to tell me to sleep it off.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I hate to be an AH

Too late!

[Puckstop31]

Too late!


LOL And you claim to iggy me because I am childish.

:love:

We all know the truth. :)

[blue]

Too late!

At least I admit I do it, what is your excuse?