In Defense of Aggressive Dogs...

[Giselle]

So, I will let the other thread die a natural thread. But I seem to have picked up a very negative and destructive attitude towards "aggressive dogs". As the owner of an aggressive dog and as I have dedicated my life to animal behavior, I feel I must defend aggressive dogs for the marvelously complex creatures they really are. I often cringe when I see the "All aggressive dogs must be euthanized!" statements. I cringe because it hurts and it's a completely asinine statement to make. Before you judge and exclaim, unequivocally and without exception that an aggressive dog MUST be killed, consider this:

First: What is an aggressive dog? People overuse this term TOO much. One must understand that there is a distinction between reactive dogs and aggressive dogs. And if you can't tell the distinction or it is not clear, please, do NOT suggest or endorse euthanasia.

Second: How much of the dog's behavior is inherited or biological? If you cannot determine this, do not suggest or endorse euthanasia. Do you know if the dog has neurotransmitter deficiencies? Do you know if the dog has a health issue, such as a brain tumor or seizures? Hormonal imbalance? Most of the physical causes that exacerbate aggression can be managed. Aggression is an illness of the mind. Too much aggression is abnormal and dysfunctional. So, like a physical illness, we seek to manage aggression - not eliminate the animals that display such behaviors.

Third: Is there really such thing as "unprovoked" aggression? Most dog owners have inadequate knowledge of dog body language. Additionally, most people believe there must be a specific, tangible "provocation" to initiate an aggressive attack. And when they miss the transmission of body language leading up to the attack, they assume an attack is "unprovoked" - when, in fact, it CLEARLY has a cause. There are *extremely* few and *extremely* rare cases in which a dog actually has unprovoked aggression. People, we need to remember that "unprovoked" means absolutely no cause at all - in other words, a dog who LITERALLY flies off the handle at random times of the day toward random people in random situations. But if there's even the slightest rhyme or rhythm to a dog's aggression, then the attacks DO have a cause and DO have provocation and DO have a trigger/stimulus.

So what am I trying to say? Before you make a blanket statement that "all aggressive dogs should be euthanized", consider, just for a moment, that, perhaps, there is more to the issue than meets the eye. And consider, for just a minute, that, perhaps, the dog deserves more than derision and euthanasia.

--- Alright. Off my soap box. I've just really really had it with these blanket statements regarding aggressive dogs.----

[K9soul]

Good post Sophie. I too have a dog that shows reactive aggression in certain situations (Tasha), only if she feels trapped, and in my opinion, it is very mild. The main thing I have to worry about with her is when I am out walking on a leash and someone passes us the opposite way, particularly a man, Tasha will try to nip their heels as they go by us with her head lowered and hackles up. She also will bark/growl/hackles around strangers but as long as she is not leashed or trapped she will just keep out of reach and bark until they leave or sit down or settle.

She started showing this fear/mistrust of people outside her 'pack' at 5 months or so old. I had a consult with a behaviorist who felt she is really a good dog and watched her behavior melt away to puppyish curiosity when he laid on the floor and showed no threat to her. How many people would label her dominant? It couldn't be farther from the truth. Tail is tucked, body hunched down to make herself smaller, etc.

I took her to obedience classes for socialization. She got used to the people in the class and relaxed around them and had no problem, but would still react to strangers, mostly men who are the scariest. She's also always gotten along pretty well with other dogs.

So I did a lot of work with her, perfected her off-leash heeling. She is so, SO good. But when I go trail walking in an area with people, I put a basket muzzle on her. It's very light, plastic and doesn't bother her, and if a jogger suddenly runs by us and she tries to nip his heels, I won't have an incident on my hands, though generally I can sense her tension, have her sit, etc. if someone goes by us. There are always times of surprise though, I can't control someone's kid racing up to us for example, so I take the better-safe-than-sorry route to assure her teeth cannot so much as give a bruise or nick.

I'm sharing this to just show another example of what people may blanket under the term aggression as well.

And here is an older (bad quality) video I took to show Tasha's work in off-leash heel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XuBzP7fL7o
(and she was chubby then! I hadn't improved her diet as much yet ;))

[Daisy and Delilah]

Giselle and Jess:

As long as I've been on this board, I have considered myself fortunate to be among some incredible people. Both of you epitomize that type of people. The knowledge and eloquence you both have is unparalleled.

Thanks to both of you for always being the voice of reason. Both of your comments are so well done. I feel blessed to have such information available to me. :)

[chocolatepuppy]

There are *extremely* few and *extremely* rare cases in which a dog actually has unprovoked aggression.
Giselle, I really believe that to be true. I wonder how many dogs lose their lives due to being a misunderstood attack? Your post is very educational.
I think a lot of dogs labeled 'aggressive' are most likely showing what is considered normal dog behavior. Behavior that can be managed with training.

[kokopup]

I have had some experience with aggressive dogs and irresponsible owners and when the two get together you have disaster. I have a
recent example. I had a renting neighbor that felt that she MUST have a dog or dogs for her kids. This was a woman that had lost custody of her kids because of drug use. The kids came to visit her on a weekly or every other week. First she had two unaggressive dogs that she kept in a small fenced area, about 10x10. She never went in the fenced area and just poured food and water through the fence. These poor dogs walked in their own poop all day. They never had fresh water. She would go off for days at a time and leave them unfed or watered. If I had not intervened on several occasions the dogs would have died. I called the authorities on several occasions and she was only warned. She then decided to get a Pit Bull. The dog was great with the kids when they were there but on several occasions The kids would get occupied with being kids and the dog would take off a do what ever. It went to my mother-in-law's and came after her. She used to walk to my house through the wooded trails that I had built but became afraid to even get out of her house. It came to my property and attacked me on two occasions. The final blow was it going to another neighbors and killing two of their goats. I live on 20 acres and all my neighbors live
on acreage. We should not live in fear that another neighbor will have
a dog that she will let run unattended. An unattended aggressive dog
at that.

The problem dog became history when another neighbor bought the
property just so he could evict her. That is how I ended up with Rascal my cat. When she moved out she left everything behind and I mean everything. The Neighbor that bought
the property , did it to protect his grandkids that lived through the woods from her
rental property.

What do you do with this dog? Socialize it? There is no defense for this aggressive dog. My mother-in-law did not provoke it, she lives a block away. I did not provoke it, and I'm almost positive the goats did not provoke it. The owner did nothing. She did not get this dog for any other reason than to have it for her kids when they came to visit. She was like a lot of RED NECKS , she had to have a Pit Bull and of course either put it in a small fence or put it on a chain.

There are people that should not have any living thing under their care,
animal or child.

[Twisterdog]

An aggressive or reactive dog, paired with a knowledgable, responsible owner willing to be realistic and proactive, is certainly a manageable, even fruitful, relationship.

However, an naturally aggresive or reactive dog, paired with an ignorant, "macho" owner who finds the behavior "cool" and encourages it, is a recipe for disaster.

Therein lies the entire difference.

I suppose Pepper would be defined as an "aggresive" dog. She hates children isn't crazy about men. She has been known to bite the shoe of a young or male houseguest. However, she is a thirteen year old, mostly toothless, chihuahua/smooth fox cross. Not exactly a threat. I simply pick her up and put her in the bedroom.

As far as the "all aggressive dogs should be euthanized" statement ... I don't think anyone said or meant that. I said something to the effect of IF your dogs are truly aggresive, and IF they attack someone, they WILL be euthanized. I don't think anyone is or was making the gross generalization that "all aggressive dogs should be euthanized", simply trying to get across the fact that dogs that DO bite are killed.

[lizbud]

An aggressive or reactive dog, paired with a knowledgable, responsible owner willing to be realistic and proactive, is certainly a manageable, even fruitful, relationship.

However, an naturally aggresive or reactive dog, paired with an ignorant, "macho" owner who finds the behavior "cool" and encourages it, is a recipe for disaster.

Therein lies the entire difference.

As far as the "all aggressive dogs should be euthanized" statement ... I don't think anyone said or meant that. I said something to the effect of IF your dogs are truly aggresive, and IF they attack someone, they WILL be euthanized. I don't think anyone is or was making the gross generalization that "all aggressive dogs should be euthanized", simply trying to get across the fact that dogs that DO bite are killed.



I agree 100%.

[Casper]

I agree with all that has been said 100% and can only hope that everyone is able to see this.

Ethan is a reactive dog and we have been through so much with the bugger. He pushed us on the edge of our breaking point years ago, but sticking through it with him has opened my eyes to the bigger picture.

Thanks for bringing this up. :-)

[cali]

great post, as someone who has owned several "aggressive" dogs I am sick and tired of people telling me my dogs would be better off dead. people who have NEVER met my dogs. Rusty is aggressive toward male dogs that share "his" property..you have no idea how many dozens of people concluded that this means he should be dead. I could not believe those people, why in heavens name would killing him be a better solution to..oh I dunno..finding a home where he would not live with other males. like..duuuhhh! or Happy, she is dog aggressive(fear) and used to be child aggressive(fear)..that doesnt mean she should have been dead. fear can be worked through, look at her now, she ADORES kids and has helped many children over their fear of dogs, and she has made tremendous progress when it comes to other dogs.

or how about dogs at the kennel I work at. CJ(American Bulldog) was taken to the vet to be put down for aggression by his previous owner, the vet looked at the dog and said "bullsh*t" and rehomed him instead. his new owners have worked with him, CJ now runs with the little dogs at the kennel, and wants nothing more then to cuddle with everyone he meets. Bella was abandoned at the kennel for aggression, Bella is the sweetest dog ever and was adopted by one of the employee's. does she has issues? yes, but her new owner is working through it.

what pisses me off to no end is people who dont tolerate growling. why? because these same people are the ones yelling that their dogs bit without warning. well DUH! you taught your dog that giving a warning is completly unacceptable! that is not the dogs fault thats the owners stupidity.

[Giselle]

Twister, in no way was I directing this thread towards you. I was replying in response to blanket statements such as this:

If I had a human agressive dog it would be put down in a instant no and if's or buts.
Sorry, but my real life is not all back and white. The "if's and's or but's" are what make behavior so complex and make compassion/understanding so vital to the dog-human relationship. The statement insinuates that, if a dog displayed "human aggression", the dog would not be helped and would be destroyed immediately. Those are the comments to which I wrote this thread.

[buttercup132]

Well since that was my quote I guess this thread was directed at me.


As far as the "all aggressive dogs should be euthanized" statement ... I don't think anyone said or meant that. I said something to the effect of IF your dogs are truly aggresive, and IF they attack someone, they WILL be euthanized. I don't think anyone is or was making the gross generalization that "all aggressive dogs should be euthanized", simply trying to get across the fact that dogs that DO bite are killed

And that is exactly what I ment by it.
I do not classify a dog that is a fear biter,DA or anything like that to be agressive and need to be put down.
Would a fear BITER attack someone? Not likely..

Someone said that they got attacked by a dog and they didn't provoke it at all then that dog imo should be put down.
I know it's rare for a dog to be HA but it's not impossible and with all the inbreeding, crappy breeders, and irresponsible owners now a days it's becoming less rare.

[Shelteez2]

Third: Is there really such thing as "unprovoked" aggression? Most dog owners have inadequate knowledge of dog body language. Additionally, most people believe there must be a specific, tangible "provocation" to initiate an aggressive attack. And when they miss the transmission of body language leading up to the attack, they assume an attack is "unprovoked" - when, in fact, it CLEARLY has a cause. There are *extremely* few and *extremely* rare cases in which a dog actually has unprovoked aggression. People, we need to remember that "unprovoked" means absolutely no cause at all - in other words, a dog who LITERALLY flies off the handle at random times of the day toward random people in random situations. But if there's even the slightest rhyme or rhythm to a dog's aggression, then the attacks DO have a cause and DO have provocation and DO have a trigger/stimulus.

So what am I trying to say? Before you make a blanket statement that "all aggressive dogs should be euthanized", consider, just for a moment, that, perhaps, there is more to the issue than meets the eye. And consider, for just a minute, that, perhaps, the dog deserves more than derision and euthanasia.

--- Alright. Off my soap box. I've just really really had it with these blanket statements regarding aggressive dogs.----

I just wanted to quote this paragraph again as it is what I was thinking when the whole other thread was going on. I didn't want to add to what that thread was becoming though.

I think probably 99% of "unprovoked" attacks were given clear (to a dog) warning signals that it was about to happen. So many of a dog's signals are so subtle that they go missed by many.

I applaud your post Sophie. I too have a dog with aggression issues. And he too is managed to the best of my abilities. I think a lot of people could learn a lot about dog behavior and training by reading your posts.



Well since that was my quote I guess this thread was directed at me.



And that is exactly what I ment by it.
I do not classify a dog that is a fear biter,DA or anything like that to be agressive and need to be put down.
Would a fear BITER attack someone? Not likely..

Someone said that they got attacked by a dog and they didn't provoke it at all then that dog imo should be put down.
I know it's rare for a dog to be HA but it's not impossible and with all the inbreeding, crappy breeders, and irresponsible owners now a days it's becoming less rare.

I think the problem in understanding here is what you define as provoking a dog. A fear biter could and would absolutely attack somebody if that somebody didn't realize what they were doing was sending the dog into a fearful state. And don't think that all fearful dogs will tuck tails, duck heads, and crouch. Some have a very low threshold and will go from looking away from what scares them to attacking before it can get them.

[buttercup132]

I mean like a person just walking by and your dog attacks them, that kind of situation.
Or if the dog was going after like friends and family that were over again if they were just sitting there not even touching the dog.

[IRescue452]

Most aggressive dogs can be fit into a situation where there aggression can be controlled. Few need to be euthanized straight out. However, in the world we live in, shelters and rescues can expect to be sued even if they placed the dog with somebody willing and capable of working with aggressive dogs should that person be bitten.

[k9krazee]

Thank you. Said much better than I could have ever, Sophie. :) Good thread.

[Giselle]

I mean like a person just walking by and your dog attacks them, that kind of situation.
Or if the dog was going after like friends and family that were over again if they were just sitting there not even touching the dog.
But that's exactly the human fallibility that I'm talking about. "Provocation" can often have little to do between the dog and the trigger. Most aggressive dogs fly off the top because of the specific environment.

For example, if you place Ivy in a dog park setting, she will not display aggressive behaviors. But if you place her in a stressful class environment and command her to do a complex behavior, the stress accumulates and she takes it out on a nearby dog. It is not the trigger itself that leads to an attack. It is a culmination of physical health, mental health, prior training, and the environment. So, for your examples of dogs attacking people for walking by, well my question is: Was the dog lying down? Was the dog sleeping? How long has the dog lived with the people? Is the dog completely healthy? Was the dog guarding a toy? Was the dog guarding its food? WHERE was the attack? What is the relationship between the person walking by and the dog? There is so much more to an aggressive attack than "Oh, Fido bit me as I walked by. He's uncontrollably aggressive and is unable to be helped (ergo, must be put down)."

All I'm saying is: We need to stop looking at aggression as am intangible conflict within the dog itself. It's not. It's a culmination of the environment, of the dog's temperament, of the dog's prior training, and of how other beings within the environment interact with the dog. We need to take on a biopsychosocial approach rather than instantly labelling and condemning aggressive dogs.

By the way, buttercup, I did not mean to single you out, but I was simply pointing out the type of statements that spurred me to make this thread.

[Taz_Zoee]

My mom rescued her dog Pepsi from being PTS because she had bit two people in her two years of life. The owners were required to either find her a home outside the city limits or she would be put down. After asking questions to the owners we discovered she bit these people when she had puppies. One bite per litter. Well duh! She was protecting her puppies. The people were just walking past the house when she ran out and bit them.
So, my mom only agreed to take her if they got her fixed. The owners gave us a muzzle to use when we take her to the vet. My mom has NEVER used it. We do know that she is not good with small children though. And apparently my niece forgot this and let her out while her little cousin was there and he got bit. My niece got in BIG trouble for this, not to mention she probably already felt bad enough.
So Pepsi was labeled "aggresive" but she now leads a very healthy happy life out in the country and gets LOTS of exercise everyday. :D
The only reason my parents agreed to take her was because of the circumstances and the fact that it wasn't HER fault she bit, it was the irresponsible owners.

Great thread Sophie! :D You know what I am going through with Zoee. Some might think she is aggresive. I like reactive better. :)

[Twisterdog]

Most aggressive dogs can be fit into a situation where there aggression can be controlled. Few need to be euthanized straight out. However, in the world we live in, shelters and rescues can expect to be sued even if they placed the dog with somebody willing and capable of working with aggressive dogs should that person be bitten.


This post brings up a good point. IF you can find the right owner for the particular dog at the right time, yes, most fearful/aggresive/reactive/ill/etc. dogs can be rehabilitated.

However, the problems lies with that big IF. And because of the gross pet overpopulation problem we have in this country, that is a HUGE IF. If one works at a shelter, and has one available spot to take a dog, one is going to take the passive, laid back, mellow dog. Because it's more likely to get adopted quickly, and it's less likely to cause a dangerous or expensive dog fight, or bite a person.

If you have a limited amount of time, money and space - and what shelter or rescue doesn't - you simply cannot spend the disporportionate amount of that it would require to save one aggresive/reactive dog, when you could save dozens of others instead.

Sad fact of our over-populated world.

[kokopup]

The unprovoked dog that I mentioned was viewed by the family as a gentle sweet dog. It would be playing with young children and just a short time later be down the street attacking something.

My mother-in-law was out hanging clothes on her line when all of a sudden this dog charges her with teeth showing and snarling. If she had not retreated to her house she would have been mauled. I was attacked in my yard and if it had not been for Koko defending me I would have been hurt also. The goats that were killed were in a fenced area. It had killed two goats and had gone after more when the owner intervened to run the dog off.

This poor misunderstood dog was sweet and gentle says the owners.
I think this animal falls in the category of one that needs to be put down. Playing with kids one minute and killing just minutes later tells me this dog has real issues. I would never trust it no matter how much rehab it had.

I am a cross-country Bicyclist and am attacked by dogs routinely. I
view these dogs as protection their territory. If I see that I can't out
run them I get out my water bottle and give them a squirt of water. I would never suggest these dogs be put down. I do see a major difference in breed as to those dogs just protecting their territory and
those protecting it and want to see blood flow.

[noellenc]

The unprovoked dog that I mentioned was viewed by the family as a gentle sweet dog. It would be playing with young children and just a short time later be down the street attacking something.

My mother-in-law was out hanging clothes on her line when all of a sudden this dog charges her with teeth showing and snarling. If she had not retreated to her house she would have been mauled. I was attacked in my yard and if it had not been for Koko defending me I would have been hurt also. The goats that were killed were in a fenced area. It had killed two goats and had gone after more when the owner intervened to run the dog off.

This poor misunderstood dog was sweet and gentle says the owners.
I think this animal falls in the category of one that needs to be put down. Playing with kids one minute and killing just minutes later tells me this dog has real issues. I would never trust it no matter how much rehab it had.

I am a cross-country Bicyclist and am attacked by dogs routinely. I
view these dogs as protection their territory. If I see that I can't out
run them I get out my water bottle and give them a squirt of water. I would never suggest these dogs be put down. I do see a major difference in breed as to those dogs just protecting their territory and
those protecting it and want to see blood flow.

It sounds like these dogs aren't restrained. Are you attacked by dogs allowed out in yards that are not fenced? Did the dog that would have attacked your mother get out of the house, away from its owner on accident or dig under a fence? I don't understand why these dogs were loose. I would say whatever is allowing them to get to those points should be evaluated. A very territorial dog should not be owned by a family without fencing or some way to keep the dog away from walker/cyclists, if you ask me. My dog is a bit territorial. He won't attack someone for walking into our yard but he will bark until they get inside "his" fence. I would not let him outside without supervision as it is now just because his barking is annoying and he will be incessant unless I am out there with him. If he would try to attack anyone that came up to the fence to pet him (you never know), I would DEFINITELY never let him out alone, even at night when there aren't people out and about.

And this might be a little scary to some but I heard a story from a man whose dog was within a fence and barked at a little girl riding by on her bike on the sidewalk. Apparently she fell on her bike and got hurt and her parents were suing the dog owner because the barking dog startled their daughter. The dog didn't even touch the little girl!! I certainly hope that didn't cause the dog to be put down.

[kokopup]

originally posted by noellenc

It sounds like these dogs aren't restrained. Are you attacked by dogs allowed out in yards that are not fenced? Did the dog that would have attacked your mother get out of the house, away from its owner on accident or dig under a fence? I don't understand why these dogs were loose. I would say whatever is allowing them to get to those points should be evaluated. A very territorial dog should not be owned by a family without fencing or some way to keep the dog away from walker/cyclists, if you ask me. My dog is a bit territorial. He won't attack someone for walking into our yard but he will bark until they get inside "his" fence. I would not let him outside without supervision as it is now just because his barking is annoying and he will be incessant unless I am out there with him. If he would try to attack anyone that came up to the fence to pet him (you never know), I would DEFINITELY never let him out alone, even at night when there aren't people out and about.



I had indicated in a previous post that the dog would be let out to
play with her kids that visited every week or so. The kids would tire
of watching the dog or would go in and no one would put the dog back in it's pen. The dog lived in a pen until the kids came to visit. It would be outside with the kids with no adult supervision. The dog would wander off to do it's thing because you have irresponsible owners.

The dog used to climb the fence to get out so they put a chicken wire
top on the pen. Unfortunately the chicken wire doesn't keep the dog from roaming if they neglect to put it back in the pen.

[Giselle]

I'm not talking about the logistics of keeping or adopting out an aggressive animal. That is NOT the purpose of this thread. This thread is meant to expose the deeper intricacies of why an animal would aggress and why we, as their owners and handlers, should refrain from immediate judgement and condemnation. THAT is why I made this thread.

There is a pervasive tendency amongst the general public to assume: "one bite and you're out". And that's the mentality that I'm really trying to drive at. (btw, Koko, nobody here can ever provide an objective assessment of the situation you shared because nobody here was there except for you and nobody can ever know the entire situation - so, it's really just speculation if we try to discuss why/how it happened and if it all could have been prevented/if it really was 'unprovoked'. Interesting story, though.)

[Daisy and Delilah]

Originally posted by noellenc

And this might be a little scary to some but I heard a story from a man whose dog was within a fence and barked at a little girl riding by on her bike on the sidewalk. Apparently she fell on her bike and got hurt and her parents were suing the dog owner because the barking dog startled their daughter. The dog didn't even touch the little girl!! I certainly hope that didn't cause the dog to be put down.

I've heard stories on the news that stated something like this happening. I wonder how many times the dog has been blamed and destroyed for no reason. It's heartbreaking. It seems the dog's actual participation, or lack thereof, is almost always omitted from the stories.:(

[kokopup]

Originally posted by Giselle

(
btw, Koko, nobody here can ever provide an objective assessment of the situation you shared because nobody here was there except for you and nobody can ever know the entire situation - so, it's really just speculation if we try to discuss why/how it happened and if it all could have been prevented/'if it really was 'unprovoked'. Interesting story, though.)

I have alway respected your expert advice and knowledge on this forum. It is obvious to me though that any opinion other that your own regarding aggressive dogs is just not wanted. I appreciate your concern for the poor misunderstood one biter, but the facts remain there are
many dogs in the hands of irresponsible owners that will kill or maul and in many cases this could have been prevented.

When you say 'if it really was unprovoked' says that I must have slanted the story to make it appear worst than it was. This dog had been reported to the sheriff on 2 occasions. The life of the two goats would have been spared if they had taken some kind of action, if nothing more than putting fear in the owner to be responsible.

It appears that only your commentary can possibly be given "objective assessment". Forums are suppose to be discussions not platforms for one persons biased agenda. I see the stories that support your view received no condemnation.

[Twisterdog]

I'm not talking about the logistics of keeping or adopting out an aggressive animal. That is NOT the purpose of this thread. This thread is meant to expose the deeper intricacies of why an animal would aggress and why we, as their owners and handlers, should refrain from immediate judgement and condemnation. THAT is why I made this thread.

Both topics are clearly related. If you open a thread on a message board, you cannot be in total control of every response to it. As long as the responses are on-topic, YOU cannot dictate which direction the thread takes, even if it does not keep with YOUR original purpose. Others might be interested in certain posts and points of view, even if you yourself are not. Hence the reason we post on public message boards, eh?


When you say 'if it really was unprovoked' says that I must have slanted the story to make it appear worst than it was ... It appears that only your commentary can possibly be given "objective assessment". Forums are suppose to be discussions not platforms for one persons biased agenda. I see the stories that support your view received no condemnation.

Not trying to start an argument, but I got this impression, as well. Obviously, this is the internet ... no one can provide witnesses to the stories they tell. I see know reason, however, to doubt kokopup's story and write it off. Cases or unprovoked aggression DO happen, even if they are uncommon.

[Husky_mom]

Totally agree...

as said some signs might be so subtle one may not notice... to me no animal acts unprovoked or for a reason...

an aggresive dog acts upon reaction...

I got bitten by a dog once... totally my fault... but it was the dogs fault to everyone else´s eyes... he was at HIS home and was wagging, so I went pet him adn reached through the fence (totally intruding HIS home) logically he bit me... not hard just a nip but still everyone freaked and wanted to call AC... I mean.. what can anyone expect from a dog that´s protecting his house from an intruding hand...not considering I was not molesting him nor was I a "bad" person or had mean intentions.. the dog simply reacted acordingly...

that´s no reason to put down a dog...

in the case kokopup mentioned... I don´t think that´s a dog worthy of being put down... that dog had "manners" toward his family (the kids that for brief periods played with him and the lady that fed him) but non at all towards stragers.. and that is a lack in socialization that definately turned him into a charging "beast" in outsiders eyes... a dog that didn´t know to respect creatures (goats) or just had prey drive... this dog with proper training should´ve been great.... just as any dog

[Giselle]

Koko, I put "unprovoked" in quotations because I'm still referring back to the other thread's notion of 'unprovoked' aggression. I'm still trying to draw a distinction between what is really truly unprovoked and what is not. As we can never know if it was really truly unprovoked, I put it in quotations. I'm sorry that it came off as accusing you of slanting the story but I assure you that was not the intent. The thread was going off on a specific tangent (questioning whether the dog you encountered had unprovoked aggression), and I made that comment to clarify that nobody - especially none of us - can really comment on the dog's state of health or behaviors, so it would be best if we left your encounter as is. My objective was to point out that delving deeper into your incidence without personal experience with that dog (and especially since it was awhile long ago) would just land us in a circle of speculations, which seemed to be where the thread was going and which is not the road I want this thread to go down.

Which leads me to my response to thread-control. No, I can not control every response to this thread, but I can attempt to keep it on a track that correlates closely to the original intent. And, if one should so desire to continue to talk about the logistics and applications of aggression and behavior management, one can start a new thread - as I did when I wanted to comment on something from a previous thread. I meant for this thread to be a discussion based more on 'philosophy/theory' versus 'application/logistics'. I apologize if that wasn't clear my previous post but that's really all I was attempting to reign in.

[bckrazy]

I couldn't agree more, Sophie.

Honestly, I read and re-read all of the posts in this thread... and I don't find your posts to be close-minded, at all. I agree with your comment about the crazed, blood-thirsty dog Koko was talking about. It could easily be a case of high prey drive and/or a dog who is accutely sensitive to fast movements. Is a Husky who kills a cat an aggressive dog? The story also seems strange because dog-aggression, livestock/animal-aggression, and human-aggression are very different. A DA dog could be the least HA dog in the world, or vice versa. Gonzo is incredibly sensitive to movements, whether it's livestock, another dog, a person, a car, a balloon, etc. Of course, he doesn't have prey drive. He has herding drive, which is modified prey drive. Desensitizing him to stimulus and working on re-directing his focus has helped a lot, but I would never trust him alone in stimulating situations. Either way, ANY dog who is allowed free reign of a neighborhood should not be blamed for ANYTHING they do. Their owners should be banned from ever owning dogs for that kind of idiocy.

It is incredibly rare to find a dog who truly bites unprovoked. What people don't understand is that every single dog, even their sweet old Lab/Golden/etc, has the propensity to bite and WILL bite if they are pushed far enough. Some dogs have a fuse a mile long and some a millisecond. In almost any case, that fuse can be stretched out with regular, positive, fairly easy training and good management. I don't think that most people do understand a dog's body language, to be honest. Things like yawning, licking, cowering, turning away, earset, tailset and hard stares are often completely ignored or misunderstood. I have noticed that all of the people I know who have been bitten before by dogs have been bitten more than once, and my dogs are never fans of them. Some people naturally get it, but some people seem to think that dogs and people have the same way of communicating non-verbally. Dogs who do bite "unprovoked" are more than likely dogs who have been trained by their owners, unintentionally, to show no warnings and to bite first and ask questions later. Dogs who are alpha rolled, pinned, smacked, and punished for growling are often the only dogs who learn to resort to biting without a warning and without giving the bitee any time to correct what they're doing to bother the dog. In the end I feel that except for in rare cases, most aggression is caused by people, whether unwittingly or ignorantly or accidentally or even intentionally (through unscrupulous breeding, or for breeding towards aggression in the case of bully breeds and guardian breeds)... and it can be (and should be) eased and managed by people.

I completely agree that each dog is an individual, and just because a dog is aggressive/reactive/what have you does not make them any less worthy of life than any other dog. My reactive/fearful dog happens to also be the most loving, devoted, obedient companion that the rest of my family and I could ever ask for. But I suppose he should be euthanized because he doesn't adore everything and everyone. When people say that dogs who have issues should be PTS, because there are plenty of friendly, aloof dogs in the world, it really bothers me. My dog with issues is irreplaceable. Ultimately, if you as an owner educate yourself and take every step necessary to keep others and your dog safe, I do believe that nearly every single aggressive dog can be helped and can be kept safely.

[Seravieve]

Ultimately, if you as an owner educate yourself and take every step necessary to keep others and your dog safe, I do believe that nearly every single aggressive dog can be helped and can be kept safely.

That's what we're trying to do with Bunny. She's definitely dog aggressive, and has a prey drive... for the squirrels and birds. She's also VERY territorial and we've come to decided that she's leash reactive as well.

We do our best to keep her happy and safe. I know its a touchy subject, but we've used some of CM's instructions with her and its really helped. She wears a backpack on walks and is MUCH better about not chasing cars because she's doing a job. She came from Animal Control as a stray, so who knows whats happened in her life before us. We are honest about her issues and control her accordingly. She is definitely able to lead a happy life while being separated from strange dogs (ie no dog parks, Petsmart trips, etc).

Each dog is different, and while there may be some who can be controlled with different methods, there are some who cannot. It also depends on the willingness of the owners too. =)

[kokopup]

I was not trying to hijack your thread with my post concerning aggressive dogs and irresponsible owners. I was relating an instance in my recent past where a neighbor had a pit bull that in my opinion she should not have had because of the nature of this dog. I have owned some reactive aggressive dogs in my 69 years. My first dog at 10 was a Chow that was over protective of me and because of that I had to give him up. If my parents had been more knowledgeable about dogs It could have been trained to not be aggressive toward others. I guess to this day I resent having to give up my friend Sandy. I know with proper training any dog can be nonaggressive and even a Pit Bull can be taught to count to 10 before reacting, I have owned a Doberman and German Shepherds that were loving members of my family. One of my Shepherds became so socialized he was useless as even a watch dog. I was in the Navy then and dozens of people walked by my fenced yard daily. She got so used to people they could open the gate and walk in and she just wagged. Sort of like Koko but at least Koko will alarm if someone new comes up.

I know you say that dogs ( in this case a Pit Bull) do not attack humans or animals without provocation. That is true at some level. If an experienced dog behaviorist had been witness to what occurred he would have been at a loss to determine what was the trigger for this aggression. I know there are several factors that are contributors.
You had an owner that did nothing but dump food and water through the chain link fence. You had kids that came to play maybe 2 or 3 times a month. You had no supervision to prevent this dog from roaming at it's own whim. There did not appear to be a consistent pack leader so this dog was on his own. It is fortunate that he was on his own because if he had teamed up with others he could have done no telling what.


When I say unprovoked I am saying no immediate visible trigger. The dog had to travel half a mile, and climb a fence to get to the goats. I'm sure he could smell his pray but there was nothing to stop it from making that half mile scamper. In my mother-in-laws case the dog traveled 1/4 of a mile to charge her hanging cloths. In my case I would never have known what hit me because I was kneeled working on my lawn mower when Koko intervened to turn his attention.

I'm sure in the right hands this dog could have been rehabilitated and maybe made someone a wonderful dog. It takes special skills to properly socialize a highly reactive bred like the Pit Bull. This is true if raised from a pup, but to take on a dog that already has issues is another thing altogether. That is why I said it should be destroyed. It never became an issue with the owner because when she moved she left her dog ,her cat, and a house full of belongings.

I will leave you to your thread now. I don't know that much about the effects of dopamine or serotonin on a dogs behavior.

[Giselle]

Koko, you need not defend your story nor your stance. Once again, I was trying to STOP the speculations regarding whether the dog you encountered was unprovoked or not. That was my intent: to STOP the speculations because we weren't there and we don't know, so we must take your account as is and accept it as you've delineated it thus:

I made that comment to clarify that nobody - especially none of us - can really comment on the dog's state of health or behaviors, so it would be best if we left your encounter as is.

You've indicated that you've felt an unjust offense, and I apologize if you've gotten that negativity from myself or any other comment on here, but I can tell you that my intent was to preserve your story from others' speculations/questionings, as we all will never truly know. Don't know how to clarify that any more.