Update on the Koi

[NicoleLJ]

We Changed the water in the big tank again as I was instructed on a forum. They said to change 75% of it. SO we did. The coudiness is already going way down and there is none in the small tank. I found out I was over feeding them. So now that I know that I can do a little better but I still have a long way to go to learn about these beautiful guys. I do know if I ever get a big pond the next one I want is a platinum koi. They look like sparkling silver stars. Anyway. Here are pictures of the tanks

10g holding the 3 4 inch koi
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/J2709017.jpg

55g holding the four 8 inch Koi plus the sucker fish
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/J2709016.jpg


Here are some pictures of the fish
Leo
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/J2709013.jpg

The 4 inc fish (fire fox, silver surfer and no name yet)
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/J2709002.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/J2709003.jpg

8inch fish (Shimmer, Sparkle, Peace and Skeletor)
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/J2709011.jpg

Peace
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/J2709006.jpg

Sparkle
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/J2709007.jpg

Shimmer
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/J27009004.jpg

Skeletor
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/J27009020.jpg

[Fuzzybuns]

In my opinion, keeping Koi in a tank is cruel. There will not be enough room for them so there really isn't an option of "if I ever get a pond". Your tank would have to be huuuuge!
You will always have ammonia issues, whether you over feed or not.
They've also been known to bust glass in tanks...

If you want something that you can keep in a tank, and that looks simislar to Koi, have a look at Comets. They're Goldfish, but they they are manageable in tanks. They even have the Koi patterns and colors, they just don't get as big or strong.

[NicoleLJ]

WOW thanks for the kick in the but when all I am doing is teying my best to help these fish. It is not like I live in an area where Koi are popular to my knowlege. THis was my first time seeing them. I could give them back to the pet store but then how would they end up. At least I am trying. SO stop insulting. Stop telling me over and over agian that the tanks are to small and tell me what I can do with what I have untill I can improve things for them.

[Fuzzybuns]

I haven't told you over and over?? This is the first time I've seen anything about Koi here. I'm pretty sure I've never talked to you at all.

I apologize for whatever you think my intention was in replying to you, all I was doing was watching out for the welfare of the fish.

[Husky_mom]

I think you are doing great... keeping them ok in what you have...

if I recall this fish are the landlords... so the tanks were already there... and I´m sure she´ll do what´s needed for them to be better... gettign a pond or bigger tank...

just like you do with any new to you pet... you research and get help form people more familair with them, in this case Koi, and you learn and improve for their better...

no need for insults or blames.. we all start not knowing and it´s good to get help... maybe the wordings got a lil harsh.. but I know it was an opinion and suggestion in order to keep the fish and people happy...

[NicoleLJ]

I apologize but I have been hearing the same thing over and over and over and over agian and it is driving me insaine. No one is giving me solutions that I can work with. All I get is the tanks are too small, the fish will die, give them away, build a pond(in the middle of -30 winter)Only one person on one forum gave me advice that I could do. Empty the tank 75% and add in new water, reduce the amount I feed them(I was over feeding them) and so on. All I got was negative. I was getting so tired of it. I was asking for help noit negativity. Why is it that everytime someone wants help people give negeativity. I am learning and trying here and can only do so much. Agian I apologize for snapping.

[Fuzzybuns]

My only worry was the welfare of the fish, I had no idea that you were working with what you have or that they belong to somebody else.

It is cruel to keep them in the tank, the ammonia alone will kill them as there is no possible way to keep up with it. That's like 2 water changes a week with as many fish are in there, unless you have one heck of a filter. Space per fish is another issue, not yet, but it will be. I was simply saying that a pond cannot be an option when they get larger, your tank would have to be immense.

[Taz_Zoee]

I was simply saying that a pond cannot be an option when they get larger, your tank would have to be immense.

I know NOTHING about fish. But I did have a question. So are you saying that the fish must be a certain size before you can put them in a pond? And that they will not get to that size in the tanks they are currently in?

[Fuzzybuns]

Not so much a certain size, but while they're small, as long as she has an awesome filter, they can stay in the tank for now. They do need more room, though. A 10 with 3 koi and a 55 with 8 koi isn't enough room for any of them, as they grow pretty quick.

If a large fish stays small due to it's living arrangements, you're actually stunting it's growth. Of course nobody wants to do that...

Hope I explained welll enough.

[Taz_Zoee]

Got it.
Well, like Nicole said, she's still learning about these guys. It was part of her moving into her new place that she take care of them. So she also needs to communicate with the owners before doing anything, I'm sure.

[NicoleLJ]

There are only 4 in the 55g. Just thought I should clear that up.

[shepgirl]

WOW thanks for the kick in the but when all I am doing is teying my best to help these fish. It is not like I live in an area where Koi are popular to my knowlege. THis was my first time seeing them. I could give them back to the pet store but then how would they end up. At least I am trying. SO stop insulting. Stop telling me over and over agian that the tanks are to small and tell me what I can do with what I have untill I can improve things for them.


How do you give them back to a pet store when they are supposed to belong to the landlord...ooops!

[NicoleLJ]

How do you give them back to a pet store when they are supposed to belong to the landlord...ooops!

Because if you had been reading along she went and bought a bigger tank and took me with her and had me help her pick out a couple of other Koi. SO the OOOOPPPPssssss is on you. Duhhh start keeping up with the threads. Instead of trying to find ways to attack in them.

[Catty1]

Good old Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koi_fish

Sorry to say that the koi is actually a carp... :)

[blue]

What size filters are you running on the tanks?

[Vela]

I don't think anyone was trying to really be negative Nicole, they are just telling you the truth. They are also correct. I used to have a lot of fish and Koi are just not good tank fish. Very difficult to keep healthy and alive, and those tanks aren't big enough for them. I realize you are doing your best with what you have, but the truth is still the truth, even if it sucks. Nobody here is trying to hurt you for the most part, as far as I can tell, but it's still correct information, even if it's not what you might wish to hear. Your fish or the landlady's fish doesn't really matter, just keep up with the water changes and try not to overfeed, but it's not a situation where they will thrive and stay healthy long term. Good luck with them, I hope it works out.

[IRescue452]

I think you've finally met people who treat fish like pets and love them, and you just don't know how to deal yet. we're aware that most people could care less about fish and aren't going to take this advice, but better to give it than to give up.

The truth is, you're poisoning these fish. Their bodies are being chemically burned as I type. Fish actually are not meant to live in their own waste. Naturally there are bacteria that coexist with fish and consume the chemicals given off in their waste and give off less harmful waste. When the bacteria are non-existant, the fish die. Its slow and painful for the fish. Cycling established that bacteria in a tank, but with so many fish in such a small tank you just can't grow enough bacteria to compensate for the waste load.

I can tell you by the pictures that it looks like the small fish in the 10 gallon are suffering ammonia poisoning. You need to get a test kit if you don't have one already. Every day you should be testing the water. I'm sure you'll find for the first few weeks that you should be changing the water almost daily or every other day. You might even see physical signs of healing when the ammonia is taken care of (fish often turn black while healing wherever their skin was burned from ammonia).

As far as overfeeding goes, you're not overfeeding. Feeding suggestions for tank owners are made so the owners have the least maintenance. Less food = less waste. To me, its cruelty. Starve your fish so that the ammonia levels don't get out of control. That's exactly what a pinch a day per fish will get you. Its what people have to do when they don't have time or knowledge of proper care. Granted the choice for the fish is either: be hungry all the time or be constantly poisoned by my water. No wins for the fish in either situation.

[IRescue452]

Oh I forgot to add. You have to get test drops in bottles, not test strips. Dry test strips start to break down their chemical composition when they are opened and exposed to air. The first one will be pretty accurate but the next strips you use will be less and less accurate as time goes on.

[shepgirl]

Actually Koi aren't tank fish period. We have a young couple who specialize in landscaping and ponds out here and Koi have always to my knowledge been pond fish. Lots of people here have ponds in their yards and they even build up small falls, in them. It does wonders to beautify a property. Koi are the main kind of fish that are seen along with goldfish. Since we have pretty severe winters there are covers to put over the pond during the winter. Koi will become dormant around-10F and don't eat during the winter. In summer the ponds have nets to protect them from geese or other prey birds who in one swoop would swallow a Koi near the top of the pond. Raccoons are also notorious for raiding ponds for Koi, hence the netting to keep them at bay.
Keeping Koi in a tank is cruel in my opinion.

[NicoleLJ]

Yeah well your opinion Shepgirl never ment much to me at all if anything really. I am doing all I can to help these fish and this morning both these tanks are clear which I was very happy to see. If you want to keep being negative in your life go ahead but I am still going to do all I can to help these fish. :p

[shepgirl]

Yeah well your opinion Shepgirl never ment much to me at all if anything really. I am doing all I can to help these fish and this morning both these tanks are clear which I was very happy to see. If you want to keep being negative in your life go ahead but I am still going to do all I can to help these fish. :p


Nobody's opinion is ever worth much to you no matter who or what it hurts. you keep posting in the guise of asking for help but the posts are for nothing since no matter who says what you blunder on ahead with what you feel like doing anyway. A clear tank doesn't mean hoot - Koi are not meant to be in a tank unless it's larger than you could ever find. They are pond fish and always have been to my knowledge and seeing them trapped in a tiny tank bumping on the glass is cruel as far as I'm concerned. Worrying about finding dead Koi is not being negative it is being concerned. Like having too many pets that then have to be disposed of. But then, out of sight, out of mind.
I would think there are more important issues to deal with than Koi right now...

[NicoleLJ]

:D:D:D:D LOL Please do not put me in the same catagory as yourself. I would never want to sink that LOW thank you very much.

If it was not for me taking on these fish for the landlady then listening to the advice of a forum member on a fish forum The tanks would still be cloudy. And yes they can live in tanks at the size they are at thank you very much. I was making many mistake and I can admit it. But at least I was trying to help the fish. I was over feeding them so he told me the right amount to feed. He told me to empty the tanks out 75% and add fresh water at the right temp. Since I did as he told everything is improving. I woke up today to two clear tanks. So you may want them to die to make me look bad or talk like you know what you are talking about but at the size they are they are ok as long as I do as instructed. THen they will stay health. And they are healthy/ THat is why I took the close up shots so he could check them out. He said they are doing very well. So if you want to be negative fine. But I am willing and am putting the work in to keep these fish healthy. Whether you like it or not. SO keep talking trash. Your the only one that looks bad. I just look to the side and see my happy beautiful fish.

[blue]

What type and size filters are on the tanks? Do the filters have charcoal or an amonium absorber in them?

[shepgirl]

Sorry but my friend said to be healthy a Koi needs a 1000L tank. The ponds they build are13,600 l. big so please spare me the drama of saving the poor little fishies. Yeah, videos mean a lot don't they...hope they last longer than poor Luca's videos.
And spare me the song about the landlady , John has filled me in on things.
For those poor fish I can only feel sorrow.

[Twisterdog]

I don't think anyone was trying to really be negative Nicole, they are just telling you the truth. They are also correct. I used to have a lot of fish and Koi are just not good tank fish. Very difficult to keep healthy and alive, and those tanks aren't big enough for them. I realize you are doing your best with what you have, but the truth is still the truth, even if it sucks. Nobody here is trying to hurt you for the most part, as far as I can tell, but it's still correct information, even if it's not what you might wish to hear. Your fish or the landlady's fish doesn't really matter, just keep up with the water changes and try not to overfeed, but it's not a situation where they will thrive and stay healthy long term. Good luck with them, I hope it works out.

Couldn't have said it better. You are hearing the same thing over and over because it is the truth and the truth doesn't change.

[NicoleLJ]

Sorry but my friend said to be healthy a Koi needs a 1000L tank. The ponds they build are13,600 l. big so please spare me the drama of saving the poor little fishies. Yeah, videos mean a lot don't they...hope they last longer than poor Luca's videos.
And spare me the song about the landlady , John has filled me in on things.
For those poor fish I can only feel sorrow.

DOn't you dare bring Luca into this. It broke my heart when I had to find him a new home. And I have no idea who this John person is. Certainly not the lady who got Luca. SO you shut your mouth. You are not even worthy to talk about Luca. I did the best I could by him and he is now very happy. As for helping these fish if it makes me a bad person in your eyes good. I will keep helping them to the best of my ability. I have only lived here since last week. I can only do so much and I think considering all I am doing quite well.

[blue]

Ive kept tankbusters, stingrays, and shovel cats. Ive also had way to many plecos in a tank for breeding.

If you have the recomended filtration for the size tanks you have, double or triple it. Ive used carbon and charcoal in the filters with good results on crowded tanks but never anythin to absorb ammonia.

Koi, goldfish, stingrays, and most catfish are all poop machines and mechanical filtration is best and alot of it.

If you not on the second floor of your building consider an indoor pond.

[shepgirl]

I can feel sorry for Luca same as I feel sorry for the Koi. He was taken out of spite and he paid the price. Again everyone gave you advice about him which you refused to follow so please spare me----go tell it to Dr. Phil....

[NicoleLJ]

How dare you little witch talk like that about Luca. He was not given away out of spite. You shut up about things you know nothing about. Part of my heart left when he had to leave. You have no heart at all. That is for sure. Now you drop the subject of my Luca or else I will bring up all your dirt. Like how you rejoined this list under a different name,(Mike001) or how you are a stalker, or how you can never back up anything you say. or how you are an expert on everything or knows someone that is on everything but can never prove it.

At least I can prove who I am, at least I am trying to help these fish that were given to me. At least I am trying to follow some of the advice that makes sense to me and that I can afford.

You on the otherhand have nothering to spew but insults and ugliness when it comes to anything about me and I am sick and tire of it. GO find a new victim this one just quit!

[IRescue452]

I think this thread needs to be locked. And I hope you take my advice about buying a water testing kit.

[blue]

And I hope you take my advice about buying a water testing kit.

Good advice.

Hopefully you at least have the minimum size filters for those tanks.

You might be better off putting shepgirl on ignore.

[NicoleLJ]

Well after all the advice I have been getting I decided to contact my landlady to see what size tank she would be willing to get. She said they are your fish now so none. SO I asked what sized take could I get that was ok with her in the house. SHe said I already had two tanks. I explained that some of the fish were already getting bigger because they were so healthy. SO they needed more room to grow. I got her to agree to a 90g with a stand.

Yeah I know I do not have the money for it. So I am using one of my credit cards for the first time and will get it on Monday once I have made an area for it and so on.

So the really small koi will stay in the 10g tank, the medium in the 55 gallon and the larger like Shimmer in the 90g. All have lights and filters. But after this till the landlady puts a pond in the bank I can't afford any bigger tanks so please understand I am doing all I can. THey will soon have 3 tanks to be in depending on size. All total that is 155g of tanks.

[Vela]

I don't think you should go into debt for fish. I'm sorry but I think that it's unwise. The 90 gallon won't be big enough either eventually, why spend the money? It will end up being a big cost to you besides the amounts of food they will need as they grow. I wish you would reconsider rather than saddling yourself with this burden you don't need at this point in your life. The amounts of water conditioner, food, filter supplies, new bulbs as they burn out, etc etc etc gets VERY expensive. It's not a one time cost. I really wish you would reconsider that option.

[Catty1]

Hi - from another angle here...

I got the impression that when you rented one of the informal terms was that you look after her son's koi.

Now it's, 'they're your fish, you pay.'

I think if they are YOUR fish now, you should rehome or sell a lot of them. Take them back to the pet store? Maybe keep one or two.

Go ahead and start that and THEN see how quickly they aren't YOUR fish any more! :D

[NicoleLJ]

No matter what I do at this point the only thing you see as good enough is getting rid of them. I am trying my best by them. That is all I can say. My therapist thinks I am holding on tho them because of having to give up Luca. I thought he was wrong but maybe he is right. But he did also say that as long as they are safe and ok that what I am doing is ok till I am ready to let go.

[Queen of Poop]

Nicole, I understand you're doing all you can for the fishes left in your care. Perhaps instead of another tank you could invest in a top of the line filtration system to keep their water in better shape. I know that the pet stores here will test a water sample for you and could assist you with keeping it in the best shape you can. Another tank is just going to be so much more work. It's going to be a few months yet before a pond can be dug and set up so do what you can dear. Get a book or two or perhaps read on the "net" about what you can do for them in the short term.

[Catty1]

No, Nicole - not to get rid of the fish that you really like and even love.

Just that I didn't think it fair of the landlady to stick you with this expense when you are making a new start for yourself, that's all.

And not to get rid of them all - maybe just down to a manageable level.

I like QOP idea of testing, and blue's and her suggestion of a good filtration system.

I just don't think it's fair that YOU have to pay for the tank when I thought you were asked to look after them to begin with, sort of.

You'll do the best you can with the fish, I know. I just think you kind of got "stuck" with more than you expected, and the landlady was part of it.

:)

[Twisterdog]

I think this thread needs to be locked.

I don't think it should be locked. There is good information and advice about koi, if someone should need it in the future.

I do, however, think that all posts containing personal insults and not pertaining to the topic ought to be deleted. Take it PMs, where it belongs.

[Vela]

I'm not saying any of it to be mean Nicole, but I would hate to see you end up paying and maybe having it cause you financial trouble in the future. A 90gallon setup is very expensive and takes a very large filter etc. Three tanks is a LOT of upkeep and not cheap. I would just keep them in the tanks you have for now, if you get a good filtration system for the larger tank, you can safely keep them in there short term, hopefully until a pond is built in the spring. Investing so much in a temporary housing for fish that weren't even yours to begin with will hurt you in the end, I truly beleive that. I don't know why the landlady went and bought MORE fish for you to have to take care of...that doesn't make a lot of sense, but if you invest in a high quality filter, like someone suggested, they will be better of for the short term while a pond is built, and it will be less expense and work for you. I know you are new to fish, I had many tanks at one point, as well as many bettas in other tanks, and it got horribly expensive to do properly, and a LOT of work. I hate to see you saddled with something that dififcult when you are just starting to get back on your feet. I say it out of concern not being mean.

[pomtzu]

You would be so much better off if you would just listen to what folks are trying to explain to you here. You originally said that your landlord asked you to care for the fish - not take ownership. And then to buy more and dump them on you seems pretty irresponsible IMO. And why would you even consider going in debt to buy a larger tank??? - just doesn't make sense when you have other more important issues going on in your life. If you feel that you want fish, then rehome the Koi to somewhere or someone that has the proper environment for them - and just buy some tropical fish. I had tanks for many years, and there are many fish that would thrive in the size tanks that you have. Try guppies, swordtails, angels, mollies - and there are many more that are inexpensive and easy to care for. I even had a big, ugly goldfish that was named Fred who lived for many years.
Don't feel bad about not being able to provide a good home for the Koi. You obviously didn't know what you were getting in to when you took on this responsibility. If you were able to let Luca go because it was in his best interest - then I'm sure you can let the fish go too.

[shepgirl]

You're so right Pomtzu. My daughter decided she wanted to try a few fish so she bought a couple of tanks and got some bettas, which are were so beautiful to look at. Red and royal blues...and yes, she did find out they fight and have to be seperated. She had another tank with another kind of fish and a bottom feeder. But no matter how hard she tried to keep the right temps and did everything by the book her bettas didn't live very long. The others did well until they died also. She decided her dogs were enough for her, not having experience with fish it was just not meant to be I guess. We've always admired fish in tanks at doctor's offices, restaurants, etc but never did keep them. But when I see the cost involved and the care required I don't think I could keep them myself. As for KOI, I love to admire them in the many ponds people have but they do need to take precautions even in ponds or they end up a meal for a raccoon or large bird. Koi's just are not meant to be kept in tanks and the cost would be prohibitive.

[TamanduaGirl]

Why not get a 100-300 gallon Rubbermaid stock tank? Much cheaper and if someone says there's some issue with the type of plastic you could always use a pond liner, that you'll need for the pond later anyway, so the water wont come in contact with the container. I don't know how big they get but do know they have 300 gallon.

[blue]

Why not get a 100-300 gallon Rubbermaid stock tank? Much cheaper and if someone says there's some issue with the type of plastic you could always use a pond liner, that you'll need for the pond later anyway, so the water wont come in contact with the container. I don't know how big they get but do know they have 300 gallon.

You dont need a liner with Rubbermaid stock tanks, alot of monster fish keepers use them. You do need a canister, a wet/dry, or a DIY filter however.

[k9krazee]

I agree, Pomtzu.

The solution seems so obvious to me. Rehome the fish. They'll be better off and you're life will be much simpler.

You are way over your head and from everything that was posted here ANYBODY can clearly see that the fish need a better environment. It is not ideal, especially in your situation where you were having a hard time keeping food in the fridge not too long ago, to break the bank to buy a larger gallon tank. Rehome them where they can live a long healthy life elsewhere, and fill your tank with fish that will thrive in the tank you already have...if you must have fish.

[Husky_mom]

what about getting a kiddie pool... just a thought... it might work better than 3 tanks...

[shepgirl]

what about getting a kiddie pool... just a thought... it might work better than 3 tanks...


Husky mom Koi are not really tank fish, they are pond fish. A kiddie pool would be useless with all the stuff needed to keep the water clean. Those fish can poop more than you can imagine in one day. Everything you need to keep the pond clean is expensive as well. Not to mention everything else neede to keep the water at right temp and oxygen levels just so. Rehoming as everyone suggested is the best thing for the fish in the long run. And can you imagine the room you need to keep a kiddie pool indoors. And if it springs a leak what happens? Too many ifs to be safe. Why take a chance on finding the fish dead? Koi are jumpers, they can jump right out of a tank, let alone a kiddie pool.

[NicoleLJ]

Well everyone should be happy I was able to rehome 2 of the fish so far.

[Karen]

Well everyone should be happy I was able to rehome 2 of the fish so far.

Well, that's two less fish worth on tank pollution anyway. I know they are beautiful, but they aren't for everyone!

[Catty1]

{{{hugs}}} Nicole, it's less stress on you in the long run, especially financially. Your landlady wasn't entirely fair or honest, IMHO.

I hope your new home is still everything you wanted for rooms and all. :love:

[king2005]

All I get is the tanks are too small, the fish will die, give them away, build a pond(in the middle of -30 winter)

You can keep goldfish in -30C. Also in this area it doesn't hit or stay at -30C often/long. Where I'm from it was an avg of -30C & for 1-2 months it was -40C with FEET of snow & the goldfish always lived just fine. There was a heater in the pond & they were fed every 2nd day. It was awesome being bundled up & feeding the goldfish. Not so much when they splashed water.. that was COLD after a few seconds!




Only one person on one forum gave me advice that I could do. Empty the tank 75% and add in new water, reduce the amount I feed them(I was over feeding them) and so on.
75%??!! Whoever told you that needs a swift kick in the pants!! Never change more then 25% of your tank water or all the good bacteria can die, or it wont be able to reproduce fast enough to help the fish out.. So doing 75% water changes is terribly unhealthy for all fish (pond or tank).

When doing water changes its important to use a chemical to remove chlorine from the tap water, as chlorine will burn the fish & weaken/kill the good bacteria.

Pellet food is better then flakes.. Flakes sink so fast that they create waste faster.. pellets float & give the fish enough time to eat it.. This goes for all fishies.

koi & comets are not tank fish, ever. And whats sold as a Common Pleco, needs a min of 50gallons, but is happier in +75gallons. Common Plecos grow to about +12inches long.