Courtesy, manners and tradition

[Medusa]

Someone made a comment in the Doghouse about the 1950's and its generation and how we turned out and it got me to thinking. (Yep, I do that on occasion. ;) )

I've been observing a trend of courtesy, manners and tradition falling by the wayside. It isn't my intention to generalize or to criticize, merely to initiate a discussion on how things have changed since I was growing up. For ex: I've noticed the familiarity in which minors speak to adults. I'm not speaking of class distinction but a manner of respect. I was raised to speak to them only when spoken to and then to call them Miss, Mr. or Mrs., never by the first name even if they said that it was permissible to do so. To this day I still call one of my parents' friend Mrs. H and never Betty, even though I'm 60 years old.

When an adult entered or left a room, girls were required to curtsy and boys to bow. Girls almost always wore dresses, even for play, although I did quite often wear shorts and halters in the summer. I had school clothes, play clothes and church clothes and once I was dressed for church, I didn't dare get my dress dirty.

We visited the sick on Sundays, took them meals that we had prepared and we prayed w/them, too. Children wouldn't dream of touching anything in someone else's home. If a dish filled w/candy was inviting, I would never help myself to the candy, even if the person gave permission, until I got "the look" from my mother. Eating in restaurants was a rare and special occasion rather than commonplace as it is today and, of course, manners were of tantamount importance. My father would ask me what I wanted and then he would order it for me. If I dared to speak w/my mouth full, burp, scratch, put my elbows on the table, etc., I was sternly lectured, whether this behavior was in public or at home.

At school girls were required to wear dresses and always carry a fresh, clean handkerchief; boys had to have shoes shined and shirts tucked in, hair neatly combed. Girls were not allowed to wear any hair ornaments other than a barrette, certainly no jewelry except a watch, tennis shoes were forbidden for both boys and girls. If we didn't "pass muster", we were sent home and told to correct our appearance. If we got into any kind of trouble in school, we got into worse trouble w/our parents. We respected our neighbors' property and were taught not to cross their lawns as a shortcut.

Some of these traditions and courtesies seem rather silly and perhaps even uptight now but when I see how some, not all, children behave today, I rather think it preferable to go back to the old ways. It's a different world now, that's for sure; technology seems to have taken over. Gone are the days of hand-written thank you notes; an email or text message has to suffice, if you even get that. One of my friends told me that her husband was upset w/their boys because they didn't send thank you notes to relatives for gifts that they had received and my friend said "Thank you notes are just so silly. They're thankful but why do they have to write notes to prove it?" To even discuss the subject w/her seemed a waste of time.

I certainly do not feel that this generation is a lost cause. We usually hear only of the bad things that take place and when we do hear of the good things that today's kids do, such a big deal is made of it. Yes, we should praise them when they demonstrate acts of selflessness but I think we place too much emphasis on self esteem and not enough on self respect. Too many kids today are loaded w/self esteem; they think more of themselves than is necessary but it appears that self respect is lacking.

I hope that this didn't sound like a rant but I do wish to begin a discussion on how my PT family feels that things have changed since you were brought up. Make no mistake, my background is a humble one. My father was a coal miner and my mother a domestic worker before she met my father and she remained a homemaker throughout her life. Our lack of money and social standing, however, didn't mean that we couldn't be respectful, courteous and mannerly to one another. Perhaps it's the British in me. LOL That said, I think I'll have another cup of tea. Thank you for reading this far. Your comments are most welcome. :)

[pomtzu]

Since you and I are about the same age Mary (Ok - I admit I'm older), then I pretty much echo your statements.
I too was brought up sending thank you cards, calling the neighbors Mr or Mrs, wearing certain clothes for certain occasions, wearing dresses even for play, etc, etc. Even my mother addressed the neighbors as Mr or Mrs, never by their first name.
Mom was that 50's stay at home cookie baking mom, and dad was a machinist. My brothers and I never had to do without necessities, but there were few luxuries. I was absolutely thrilled one year when my "big" Christmas gift was a pair of ice skates! We truly appreciated everything that we had, and we never had so much that we got bored and wanted more and more. Most kids now have too much, and I was probably just as guilty by giving my kids too much also.
And we were taught respect - for people, people's property, people's feelings, and I feel a lot of that has been lost over the years. If I had ever back-talked my parents, or any other adult, I would have been picking myself up off the floor, and now parents can't even give their kids a swat on the backside because of the fear that the child could get on that phone and call 911 and have the parent arrested!
So yes - we have come a long way indeed since my days as a kid growing up. Technology is wonderful and our kids get smarter with every generation, but in this growing and learning, so many of the old fashioned family values have, and are, disappearing. I'm not saying bring back outdated dress codes or the like, but I sure would like to see manners and respect (for ourselves and others alike) make a comeback. Those are two things that will never be outdated.
So everyone - do not jump on this post and pick it apart please. I am only stating what I believe, and my feelings, and no one has to agree with what I have said. Think of me as old-fashioned and even behind the times if you wish, but at least try to have an open mind.

[Cataholic]

Hmm...interesting, for certain, but, I don't agree with a large portion of your old world ways. :) (Which I find odd, as I seem to find myself agreeing with you by and large).

I am 43, and was brought up in a white collar, middle income home. I have 7 siblings, and all of us, I believe, are well mannered, educated and respectful of others, be it the person or the property. I know my mom says she always made sure we acted a certain way while out in soceity, and that kids behaved differently back in the day, I think, she, like all of us, suffers from selective memory.

Key example- I have a 4 year old...and when people ask me what he was doing at a particular stage/age in time, I simply cannot recall. I can believe what I think he was doing, but, really, if I consult my notes, or sit down and really think about it, I am often wrong with what I think. My friends seem to be the same way. I think people remembering back in time- 30, 40 years, might not be remembering things with such clarity as they think. :eek:

I don't think kids have changed all that much. I do think the activities of the adults have changed. For instance, 30 years ago, dining out regularly was not an every day occurance. I can bet that taking a child to a restaurant the very first time is different than taking the child to a restaurant for the 20th time. The newness, and as a consequence, the anxieties of a new place, have gone away. Children often act differently when they are familiar with a place.

I think there is more 'inclusion' of the family in today's environment. Go back 30, 40 years, and dad worked all day, came home ate dinner and watched some TV/radio, and that was often 'family time'. Today, the family might go to a movie, a party, the mall, etc. More exposure to the outside world increases the moments for ANY behaviour to be examined, let alone bad behavior.

Many parents lives are so stressed, hustling from here to there, maybe not so much of a structure tied to nap time, bed times, consistency, sleeping in the car, etc. That 'stress' and lack of consistency travels down. I usually see 'bad' behaviour at nap times, or at bedtimes/down times. Is it the child's fault that the parent is still trying to fit in one more errand when according to the child's body clock, he should have been fed and down for a nap 1 hour ago?

Are there bratty children and irresponsible parents in the world today? Of course. Are there parents that maybe shouldn't be parents, but, are faced with the responsibility of raising a child when they would rather be doing anything else? Sure. Are some parents doing the best that they can do, but for the fact they didn't have parents that guided them (which would be those parents close in age to Medusa :p), would be doing it differently? Sure.

Most of us know, as Richard would say, adults that are AHs. Rude, inconsiderate, nasty, ignorant people. I guess we could say that is cause of the way they were raised, right? But, again, those people would have been raised 20, 30, 40 years ago, with those standards Medusa espouses.

Frankly, I think children are the same, but, our exposure to them is increased. 30 years ago, if Frankie was a big brat, Frankie's mom probably didn't take him anywhere, due to the public scorn/humiliation the family would face. Today? I don't think people care so much what Mrs. Smith down the street thinks of their family.

Raising a child is a process to me. My thoughts on motherhood 10 years ago is no where near where it is today. My thoughts on what I would do has changed in the last 4 years. Things I did with Jonah at 2 are different than the way I handle things today. I learn and I grow as my son develops. I looked for the instruction manual, but, I think it got lost in a dirty diaper. My son is no where near perfect, and I am guilty of running another errand, stopping for a quick bite when everything else dictates we should be home, losing my temper/patience when there isn't any reason other than my own internal frustrations with the situation/myself.

I wouldn't want to raise Jonah to bow to someone, I don't think calling someone Mr/Mrs instills respect, I don't believe in corporal punishment, and would never take an object to my son in discipline, I encourage Jonah to express his desires freely (doesn't mean I give in to him), and most of all, I tell him daily that I love him more than anything, and that he has so much good inside of him. My job is to help him reach his potential, through ways that I think are worthy.

And for those days when I am pulling my hair out, and he is ready to do the same, I remember what my mom says, "and this, too, shall pass".

[sasvermont]

I agree with the posts so far. Both/all sides. Times change. Do I like the changes, no. Am I over it, I would say yes! I would have a problem if I had children and/or grandchildren, I am sure.

When I was a youngster, as I recall, my Grandfather complained continually about how disrespectful we were (i.e. considered leaving the dinner table before HE was finished, leaving the table without asking to be excused, we had the nerve to sit with our elbows on the table until corrected by HIM, blah blah blah) and how spoiled we were! I still watch my table manners as a result of him being to strict. I don't regret his strictness now. Comparing my upbringing to many children's today, the complaining continues by many about the previous generation. Different complaints, but complaints about how lax society seems to be. Will it ever end? Who knows. Times change. I call it "the old person syndrome"..... Now it is our turn to feel the change. I suspect it will happen to each generation, as time passes.

I think that if the economy takes years to recover, we will see a bit of a change to the positive - taking many folks to a humble level again. I think some people have become "too full of themselves".... and pass that on to their children. I hate to see people suffer and I hate to suffer myself, but I think the wind will be taken out of a few sails over the next few years. Maybe some true appreciation of kind acts from and with neighbors, friends, relatives may come in to play as well. I have hope that being polite comes back in to fashion. Even "please and thank you" would make such differences in exchanges!:)

As far as bratty kids go, I have seen my share of them and I do think the parents are not doing the children any favors by letting them continue with the awful behavior. Fortunately, not all parents rear their children with their ears and eyes closed. I would agree that the percentages are not good when it comes to manners/behavior in public. It certainly is an attention getter, when the children act out, but since they are not my children, I let the parents accept all the positive and negative ..... :rolleyes:

Change is difficult, but inevitable.

[Medusa]

Hmm...interesting, for certain, but, I don't agree with a large portion of your old world ways. :) (Which I find odd, as I seem to find myself agreeing with you by and large).


I am 43, and was brought up in a white collar, middle income home. I have 7 siblings, and all of us, I believe, are well mannered, educated and respectful of others, be it the person or the property. I know my mom says she always made sure we acted a certain way while out in soceity, and that kids behaved differently back in the day, I think, she, like all of us, suffers from selective memory.

Key example- I have a 4 year old...and when people ask me what he was doing at a particular stage/age in time, I simply cannot recall. I can believe what I think he was doing, but, really, if I consult my notes, or sit down and really think about it, I am often wrong with what I think. My friends seem to be the same way. I think people remembering back in time- 30, 40 years, might not be remembering things with such clarity as they think. :eek:

I don't think kids have changed all that much. I do think the activities of the adults have changed. For instance, 30 years ago, dining out regularly was not an every day occurance. I can bet that taking a child to a restaurant the very first time is different than taking the child to a restaurant for the 20th time. The newness, and as a consequence, the anxieties of a new place, have gone away. Children often act differently when they are familiar with a place.

I think there is more 'inclusion' of the family in today's environment. Go back 30, 40 years, and dad worked all day, came home ate dinner and watched some TV/radio, and that was often 'family time'. Today, the family might go to a movie, a party, the mall, etc. More exposure to the outside world increases the moments for ANY behaviour to be examined, let alone bad behavior.

Many parents lives are so stressed, hustling from here to there, maybe not so much of a structure tied to nap time, bed times, consistency, sleeping in the car, etc. That 'stress' and lack of consistency travels down. I usually see 'bad' behaviour at nap times, or at bedtimes/down times. Is it the child's fault that the parent is still trying to fit in one more errand when according to the child's body clock, he should have been fed and down for a nap 1 hour ago?

Are there bratty children and irresponsible parents in the world today? Of course. Are there parents that maybe shouldn't be parents, but, are faced with the responsibility of raising a child when they would rather be doing anything else? Sure. Are some parents doing the best that they can do, but for the fact they didn't have parents that guided them (which would be those parents close in age to Medusa :p), would be doing it differently? Sure.


Most of us know, as Richard would say, adults that are AHs. Rude, inconsiderate, nasty, ignorant people. I guess we could say that is cause of the way they were raised, right? But, again, those people would have been raised 20, 30, 40 years ago, with those standards Medusa espouses.


Frankly, I think children are the same, but, our exposure to them is increased. 30 years ago, if Frankie was a big brat, Frankie's mom probably didn't take him anywhere, due to the public scorn/humiliation the family would face. Today? I don't think people care so much what Mrs. Smith down the street thinks of their family.

Raising a child is a process to me. My thoughts on motherhood 10 years ago is no where near where it is today. My thoughts on what I would do has changed in the last 4 years. Things I did with Jonah at 2 are different than the way I handle things today. I learn and I grow as my son develops. I looked for the instruction manual, but, I think it got lost in a dirty diaper. My son is no where near perfect, and I am guilty of running another errand, stopping for a quick bite when everything else dictates we should be home, losing my temper/patience when there isn't any reason other than my own internal frustrations with the situation/myself.

I wouldn't want to raise Jonah to bow to someone, I don't think calling someone Mr/Mrs instills respect, I don't believe in corporal punishment, and would never take an object to my son in discipline, I encourage Jonah to express his desires freely (doesn't mean I give in to him), and most of all, I tell him daily that I love him more than anything, and that he has so much good inside of him. My job is to help him reach his potential, through ways that I think are worthy.


And for those days when I am pulling my hair out, and he is ready to do the same, I remember what my mom says, "and this, too, shall pass".

One of my favorite sayings.

[Medusa]

Oh I'm not saying that I always agreed w/the old word ways. LOL I was simply pointing out the differences between then and now. Believe me, the curtsy, etc. got to be tedious.

I agree w/you to a point but this isn't exactly what I meant when I referred to children. Toddlers are always testing their boundaries and they certainly can't be expected to behave as adults. I was referring more to school age children who, by the time they're old enough to sit still in a classroom, should have learned that there is a certain decorum that's expected of them.

This is an example of the point that I was trying to make and, apparently, have failed at it. I was raised to discuss w/out name calling because it's abusive. Words can harm and words can heal. I don't agree that adults are AHs and it isn't the adults that I was talking about. It's the standards with which we were brought up as opposed to how children are brought up today that I was hoping to discuss. We need only to watch the news or read the paper to see that there are some bad people out there but, again, this isn't what I was talking about.

Again, I agree w/you regarding bowing, etc. I wouldn't have wanted my son to bow to anyone either. However, I did teach him to call people by Mr./Mrs./Miss because familiarity breeds contempt, IMO. My neighbor's son still calls me Mrs. L and when I told him he may call me Mary his mother said "No, he may not. It's disrespectful." (Her words, not mine.)

[Medusa]

[QUOTE=sasvermont;2113545] Comparing my upbringing to many children's today, the complaining continues by many about the previous generation. Different complaints, but complaints about how lax society seems to be. Will it ever end? Who knows. Times change. I call it "the old person syndrome"..... Now it is our turn to feel the change. I suspect it will happen to each generation, as time passes.

I have hope that being polite comes back in to fashion. Even "please and thank you" would make such differences in exchanges!:)
QUOTE]

Very well said. It appears that an erosion of civility and common courtesy has taken place and, like you, I would love to see their return.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Maybe this is not so much of a generational difference as a personal opinion on manners. My mom is about the same age as you- she is turning 60 this year, and I know she feels completely differently on the subject. She attended Catholic school, so of course she had to wear a skirt and blouse to school everyday as her uniform. Even in the dead of winter when there was no doubt an extreme risk of frost bite, which seems to border on the ridiculous (She said that she and her sister would wear pants underneath and change at school. At least her parents had a brain!). Anyway, I'm just pointing out that she came from a similar situation in this respect...I really don't see how wearing a dress makes anyone more polite.

I've seen a lot of home movies from her childhood, and aside from all the waving (obviously the movies don't have any sound) she and her siblings seemed pretty similar to kids now. Smiling, goofing off, that sort of thing. I honestly don't think kids are really any different than the kids of 50 years ago.

In fact, I work in an elementary school and I see normal kids everyday. Yes, there are some bratty kids who could stand to learn some people skills, but by and large the vast majority of children are well behaved, polite, and nice to be around most of the time. Actually, the reason I chose to work with children is that I find them more pleasant to be around the most adults...so I guess I don't understand where you are getting your impressions.

Yes, times have changed but I still think kids (and adults) are basically the same. As I'm sure happened in the past, people will find someone or something to blame- rock 'n roll (my mom was allowed to listen to the Beatles, something they didn't approve of at her school), tv, violent video games, or bad parents.

[Cataholic]

Oh I'm not saying that I always agreed w/the old word ways. LOL I was simply pointing out the differences between then and now. Believe me, the curtsy, etc. got to be tedious.

I agree w/you to a point but this isn't exactly what I meant when I referred to children. Toddlers are always testing their boundaries and they certainly can't be expected to behave as adults. I was referring more to school age children who, by the time they're old enough to sit still in a classroom, should have learned that there is a certain decorum that's expected of them.

This is an example of the point that I was trying to make and, apparently, have failed at it. I was raised to discuss w/out name calling because it's abusive. Words can harm and words can heal. I don't agree that adults are AHs and it isn't the adults that I was talking about. It's the standards with which we were brought up as opposed to how children are brought up today that I was hoping to discuss. We need only to watch the news or read the paper to see that there are some bad people out there but, again, this isn't what I was talking about.

Again, I agree w/you regarding bowing, etc. I wouldn't have wanted my son to bow to anyone either. However, I did teach him to call people by Mr./Mrs./Miss because familiarity breeds contempt, IMO. My neighbor's son still calls me Mrs. L and when I told him he may call me Mary his mother said "No, he may not. It's disrespectful." (Her words, not mine.)

I wasn't saying adults are AHs. I was saying we all KNOW adults that are AHs (or whatever word you affix) and that these people are long past the develpmental age, be it toddler or school aged children, and these adults SHOULD know how to act. My point, which apparently I did not express very well, was that even adults raised in the golden age still act inappropriately, and it wasn't just the younger generation, bringing up the youngest generation, with poor manners. It goes with my theory that children haven't changed.

As to what someone would call someone, if I specifcally asked someone to call me by my first name, and that person continued to call me something else, to me, that is disrespectful. We all should be permitted to be addressed as we see fit. Being part of the 'inner circle' extols a certain bond, a certain closeness, which to me, breeds respect. Strangers call me by my last name. Friends and family call me by my first. But, I have never been one all hung up on the Ms/Mr. thing. I get and give respect by my manners and my actions, not by what I call someone. I am sure we all have been called down by the use of formal addresses, and certainly there isn't anything respectful about that.

[Medusa]

[QUOTE=Pembroke_Corgi;2113586I really don't see how wearing a dress makes anyone more polite.[/QUOTE]

It didn't make them more polite. The title of the thread also has the word "tradition" in it. It was traditional for girls to wear skirts to school, even in the dead of winter. We had leggings that we wore under our dresses and removed them at school. I didn't mind wearing dresses; I rather liked it actually but then, I was/am a girlie girl. This also wasn't meant to be a discussion about bratty kids vs. normal kids, whatever that means. I don't think I referred to kids as being brats in my comments. As I've stated previously, I don't indulge in name calling. I was referring to the manners, customs and traditions of the 50's vs. those of today. :)

[JenBKR]

Yes, there are some bratty kids who could stand to learn some people skills, but by and large the vast majority of children are well behaved, polite, and nice to be around most of the time.

I agree with you on this. I think that the problem is that there are those bratty kids, and they stand out more than the well behaved ones, giving all kids a bad name.

I will say that when I visit family in the south, I do notice more manners. Kids say sir and mam and are taught manners in school. Some of it is nice to see...but they call their parents sir and mam too. I don't think I would want that for my kids, to that extent.

[Cataholic]

Medusa,
I went back and read the OP, and really, while you might not use the word, "bratty" you really do reference the ways kids behave today. :)
As is often the case, the OP is just the OP, things take on a life of their own after that. :D

[Medusa]

Medusa,
I went back and read the OP, and really, while you might not use the word, "bratty" you really do reference the ways kids behave today. :)
As is often the case, the OP is just the OP, things take on a life of their own after that. :D

But I did make my point w/out name calling, did I not? If I was to reprimand a child, I would never refer to him/her as a brat but I would definitely make it clear how I felt about their behavior. I feel that I need to reiterate that I don't feel that today's generation is a lost cause and I also don't feel that all kids are ill mannered. As I said, we usually only hear of the bad examples. However, I still think that common courtesy and manners have taken a back seat to an "I'm the center of the Universe" mentality.

[Cataholic]

Yes, you made a point without name calling. The picture painted was still the same, but, no reference to the word brat was contained in your post. That seems really, really significant to you, so, I want to make sure I state that clearly.

It really ties right in to my point about addressing someone by the title, and how it doesn't really convey anything different to me. It is just a word, the respect is behind the action, not the term. Just like your description of the child's behavior was left without a 'label', but, the meaning (brat) was still inferred.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I am a volunteer at a local historic site. We give tours for over 40,000 fourth graders each year.

I can tell you MANY things about the behavior of children -- when the parents are not around.

One thing a veteran volunteer told me early on -- is to introduce myself by title Mrs./Ms/Miss not as I had been as Sara.

It has made a tremendous difference. Children know that someone with a title "Ms/Mr." is an authority -- by first name is a friend. When you are trying to control and educate 20 - 25 ten year olds you NEED the authority. (I have had to add a request that the chaperon parents turn off their cell phones to my intro.)

The behavior of the group has nothing to do with economic group - ethnic group - public or private school. Very few of us like to do home school groups though.

Whether it is a good group has to do with the quality of the parents. If they are involved (NOT on the cell phone...NOT disappearing or chatting loudly in the back of the group) and do their job - corraling wanderers - correcting behavior -- it will be a great tour. We will have fun and the kids will learn.

For the most part I enjoy doing the tours but I must say...I do see the "I am the Center of the Universe"/"My Child is the Center of the Universe" more than might be healthy!

[JenBKR]

You make a good point Sara - if you assert yourself as an authority figure from the beginning, even with something as minute as how you are addressed, I think that kids will respond to that. I volunteer at church with the kids two days a week, and I am known as "Miss Jen." It's respectful but familiar at the same time, and *most* of the kids behave well.

Sometimes it's actually the parents who you want to correct. I can imagine you see it all the time. Just out of curiousity, why don't any of you like doing the homeschooled groups?

[pomtzu]

It didn't make them more polite. The title of the thread also has the word "tradition" in it. I was referring to the manners, customs and traditions of the 50's vs. those of today. :)

And that was my understanding of the point you were making! :)

People tend to read between the lines, or have selective reading, and in doing so, get defensive. I've seen a lot of this in other threads also. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and who can say who is right and who is wrong. IMO, there is no right or wrong, just folks voicing their views, and they should not be criticized for it. :(
And again, I feel that is just plain, old, common courtesy, and we as adults, should practice it.

[Cataholic]

At Jonah's preschool- which is largely a double family unit (except me, he he he), largely caucasian, and more affluent than not (excluding me again, he he) there is a woman that I see nearly 3 times a week. She is dropping off her preschool, and schlepping her infant on her hip (the only term to use is schlep), with her cell phone to her ear. Every time I see her, the phone is there. At first, I thought she had a disesase in which the phone was permanently attached. Later, I realized this wasn't physically possible.

I can see your point, ES, with the title. Those kids ARE strangers to you, and there is no formation of a relationship. My son sees our neighbors all the time (well, in the warm weather). The couple on my one side are probably 10-15 years older than me. They have two grandchildren. I don't remember ever us talking about it, but, everyone is on a first name basis. My other neighbors are generlly younger than me, so, it doesn't seem as significant to them. BUT, if someone asked my son to address them as Mr./Ms...of course, I would honor that. Excluding family, all of my friend's children call me J. ( J, as a joke, will call me 'Mother', which sounds so funny and formal. He knows it makes me laugh, and does it just to get a laugh out of me. )

The Mr/Ms thing is just one of many things I am opinionated on. :D

[Cataholic]

And that was my understanding of the point you were making! :)

People tend to read between the lines, or have selective reading, and in doing so, get defensive. I've seen a lot of this in other threads also. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and who can say who is right and who is wrong. IMO, there is no right or wrong, just folks voicing their views, and they should not be criticized for it. :(
And again, I feel that is just plain, old, common courtesy, and we as adults, should practice it.


While I do realize this will come across as antagonistic, and I truly do not mean it this way, can you see how your above assertions can be read as critical? You indicate that people read between the lines (not a "good" trait") and have selective reading (again, not one we typically use as praise), and than say that all you (and I think you are putting Medusa in there, too) are doing is voicing your opinions.

I will only speak for myself, I simply do not feel the same way you do. I don't think I am right or you are wrong. I simply do not feel the same way. I don't think I am critizing you, just debating your points.

[pomtzu]

While I do realize this will come across as antagonistic, and I truly do not mean it this way, can you see how your above assertions can be read as critical? You indicate that people read between the lines (not a "good" trait") and have selective reading (again, not one we typically use as praise), and than say that all you (and I think you are putting Medusa in there, too) are doing is voicing your opinions.

I will only speak for myself, I simply do not feel the same way you do. I don't think I am right or you are wrong. I simply do not feel the same way. I don't think I am critizing you, just debating your points.

I see your point, but as I said - it's my opinion, and I am not taking offense to your statement! And I would never implicate anyone else in a statement of my beliefs. Sorry if it came across that way.

[sasvermont]

Hey, I think you all have good thoughts on manners, tradition and courtesy. I enjoy adult like discussions like this!

I would never have made my niece call me Aunt Sallyanne.....even though she refers to me as her Aunt. I am sure that upsets my Mom - since she (my Mom) made me call my Aunts....Aunt whatever. See. This is how it has happened. I love my Aunts but could never call them by their first name, but then won't allow my niece to call me Aunt. Go figure! I mean that I demanded my niece to NOT call me Aunt, not just suggested!

Yesterday, while at work, a little girl stopped at the counter/register, waited until I noticed her, and VERY sweetly, asked if she could use our bathroom/toilet. It is the store policy to refuse such use. I couldn't believe how polite and sweet she was, and hey, guess what? her Mom was just as sweet. One may guess that I agreed to break the rules and walked her back to the toilet. She was maybe 6 at the most. She did not look as though she came from the upper crust of society - by any means. She was sweet, polite, easy to understand and direct. She thanked me several times as did her Mom. I, in turn treated her like royalty. She received a couple of free items and I gave her a Canadian dollar I had in my pocket. I told her how polite she was and how much fun it was to have her in the store........
On the other hand, at other times, there are kids that come in the door and destroy the place, while their Mom and/or Dad is doing their own thing. It drives me crazy. For the sake of requesting the kids behave in a considerate civilized fashion.

Being courteous and mannerly means you will probably be thinking about others as well as yourself, when dealing with the public. Yes? I think we may have stumbled on something. It's the "I am the center of the universe" thing. The ME generation(s). I hope it will change to the US generation.

[Medusa]

Yes, you made a point without name calling. The picture painted was still the same, but, no reference to the word brat was contained in your post. That seems really, really significant to you, so, I want to make sure I state that clearly.

It really ties right in to my point about addressing someone by the title, and how it doesn't really convey anything different to me. It is just a word, the respect is behind the action, not the term. Just like your description of the child's behavior was left without a 'label', but, the meaning (brat) was still inferred.

Mr./Mrs./Miss is a title and denotes respectfulness. Brat is a label. Besides, what child are you referring to? I don't recall speaking of one particular child or one particular behavior. I think perhaps I should bone up on my writing and communication skills because I did not want to address children and whether they have or have not changed through the years and I especially was not referring to toddlers. A cranky baby who needs a nap isn't in the same category as a teenager who purposely is disrespectful to adults and even to other teenagers and who should have some manners by that age. I wanted to discuss manners, courtesy and customs. Maybe the word "tradition" was the wrong choice. Customs is a better word. I simply wish to compare how not so few of us were brought up in the 50's as compared to today. I didn't state that one way was better than the other except that I consider the old ways preferable for me, not better.

[sasvermont]

I have been the one chatting about the children and their lack of manners (and called them brats) and wrote about their bad behavior.

I assume we are allowed to go different directions with this topic without getting dressed down. I feel very comfortable saying that all children are not reared the same way - and some - probably many, grow up to be wonderful adults!

I suspect we learn how to be polite, courteous and kind, yes? And that parents play an immense role in how well children adjust in this society.:)

Times, they are a changing.

[Medusa]

Hey, I think you all have good thoughts on manners, tradition and courtesy. I enjoy adult like discussions like this!

I would never have made my niece call me Aunt Sallyanne.....even though she refers to me as her Aunt. I am sure that upsets my Mom - since she (my Mom) made me call my Aunts....Aunt whatever. See. This is how it has happened. I love my Aunts but could never call them by their first name, but then won't allow my niece to call me Aunt. Go figure! I mean that I demanded my niece to NOT call me Aunt, not just suggested!

Yesterday, while at work, a little girl stopped at the counter/register, waited until I noticed her, and VERY sweetly, asked if she could use our bathroom/toilet. It is the store policy to refuse such use. I couldn't believe how polite and sweet she was, and hey, guess what? her Mom was just as sweet. One may guess that I agreed to break the rules and walked her back to the toilet. She was maybe 6 at the most. She did not look as though she came from the upper crust of society - by any means. She was sweet, polite, easy to understand and direct. She thanked me several times as did her Mom. I, in turn treated her like royalty. She received a couple of free items and I gave her a Canadian dollar I had in my pocket. I told her how polite she was and how much fun it was to have her in the store........
On the other hand, at other times, there are kids that come in the door and destroy the place, while their Mom and/or Dad is doing their own thing. It drives me crazy. For the sake of requesting the kids behave in a considerate civilized fashion.

Being courteous and mannerly means you will probably be thinking about others as well as yourself, when dealing with the public. Yes? I think we may have stumbled on something. It's the "I am the center of the universe" thing. The ME generation(s). I hope it will change to the US generation.

You've made an excellent point. :) Children usually mimic their parents' behavior. In this instance, Mom was sweet and so was her daughter as a result. Learned behavior. You were also willing to help her because she was so polite. Courtesy makes us want to respond in kind. Love it!

[Randi]

When I read your post, it reminded me of this one:
http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?p=699439&highlight=school+uniform#post699439

Mary, I grew up in the 50ties too, and my background sounds similar to yours. My father was a bricklayer and my mom a housewife. I really enjoyed coming home from school to a cup of tea and a cheese sandwich. Then homework, and down to play. Not all children were lucky to have one of their parents home all day.

The world has changed, I like some changes, others not.

In school, we had to line up in two rows every morning and follow the teacher to our classroom, girls in their own classroom and boys in theirs. The playground was divided up by a thick white line, so girls and boys didn't mix. We accepted it as normal, even though, today, I can’t see it was an advantage for anyone, it probably made all of us more shy to the opposite sex.

It was quite normal to speak to grown-ups in a polite manner and adressing them Mr. or Mrs. Also to say thank you, when someone gave you something. However, some things were quite silly - like curtsy and bowing, I mean, it wasn’t exactly the Queen we stood in front of.

One time, my mom took me along to one her friends, and I did or said something wrong, I don’t think I was even aware of it. The friend “forced” me to apologize and I felt SO humiliated - I was hardly old enough to even pronounce the word she wanted me to say. I remembered this for a long time, and never wanted to go there again. So a completely wrong way of tackling it!

I believe all children are born with a positive outlook on things and a healthy curiousity, but they soon get spoiled, as some parents seem too busy with other things, to care much about how “well behaved” their children are (and I mean this in the good sense of the word) and this will backfire later on. Most children will behave like their parents.

Simple things like learning to queue up when waiting for a bus, let other people speak without interupting, and appreciate what you have, instead of wanting more, more, more, would be nice.

There’s nothing wrong with a good self esteem, but like some of you say, a lot of young kids really DO believe they are the center of the Universe, and it can be pretty tiring to be around these kids for long. It would be nice if they thought about others too - but then, some of them do. :)

Also this thing with fame... some will do anything to get their 15 min. on TV and make complete fools of themselves. I never understood that.

[caseysmom]

My daughter has a friend that moved her from the south, I am always called Mam by her, its actually quit refreshing.

[sparks19]

You know... as of late... I have been very impressed with the kids and teens I have come across.

I have heard A LOT of please, thank you, yes sir, yes ma'am, just general manners and polite behaviour... some even hold the door or pick up something you dropped to give it back to you etc etc.

Even at a hockey game we went to recently a group of highschool age kids were at the game... it was a bus group so there was a lot of them. and they were not out of control, if they needed by they said "excuse me" "sorry" and 'thank you" and other than the usual hockey game cheering they weren't obnoxious nor were they potty mouthed.

I just think the bad experiences stick out in our minds more than the good experiences.

As for the sir/ma'am/mr/mrs thing.... I agree with cataholic... it's appropriate to call an adult sir or ma'am etc if you don't really know them so well or who have requested you call them that or not specifically stated that you can call them by their first name. I will do my best to teach Hannah to refer to adults and sir and ma'am but if they request she call them by their first name i will not object... it was at their request.

[Medusa]

As for the sir/ma'am/mr/mrs thing.... I agree with cataholic... it's appropriate to call an adult sir or ma'am etc if you don't really know them so well or who have requested you call them that or not specifically stated that you can call them by their first name. I will do my best to teach Hannah to refer to adults and sir and ma'am but if they request she call them by their first name i will not object... it was at their request.

As you say, if it's at the adult's request, then that's different. I mentioned that I told my neighbor's 10 year old son that he may call me Mary but his mother objected, saying that it's disrespectful.

[sparks19]

As you say, if it's at the adult's request, then that's different. I mentioned that I told my neighbor's 10 year old son that he may call me Mary but his mother objected, saying that it's disrespectful.

I know... I read the post where you said that

[Cataholic]

I have been the one chatting about the children and their lack of manners (and called them brats) and wrote about their bad behavior.

I assume we are allowed to go different directions with this topic without getting dressed down. I feel very comfortable saying that all children are not reared the same way - and some - probably many, grow up to be wonderful adults!.

You were not alone, I, too, went off on this tangent, as that was how I read the OP. And, I do think I can safely say we are "allowed" to do this. :)

I agree with Sparks (and not just cause she agreed with me, LOL) that the bad behaviour sticks out way more than the good or "normal" behaviour.

Randi- your comment about not curtsying before the Queen was quite funny! My parents are older than both of you and neither of them has ever given me an indication that bowing/curtsying was common in their day.

[RICHARD]

Is that like the pot calling the Kettles,
Ma and Pa instead of Mr. and Mrs.?

It's a joke, if you are old enought to remember the K's!:rolleyes:



MY rule of manners is quite simple.

If I say it, I own it.
I can apologize.

If someone offends me?
Tough, I don't care and laugh.

---------------

I am going to toss this one out because I have come across thousands of boorish woman who complaing about manners.


If I open a door for you or wait until you pass in a narrow hallway or push my shopping cart out of YOUR way, take a second to say "thanks" or even look at me crooked.

Many of you -and NO ONE ON THIS BOARD- stick you noses in the air and walk on by, If a clutch of you walk thru and one says "thanks", the rest of you turn, embarrassed as such, and parrot the words so you aren't left out and we men can appreciate the fact that you are polite, you just had to be reminded....


At times I lean in and whisper, "You are welcome" to remind you that you don't see me there. Some women get the hint and will comment, others won't even bother.

If you do say, "thanks", I'll whisper to you....."that's one rule they haven't changed-YET!"
And we will share a laugh about it.

---------

I worked with some "royal" people who were pretty rude-some were nurses who would chastise me for opening a door for them. LOL, after that, If I saw them on campus heading for a door, I would make sure to beat them there and flip it closed on them. Rude works both ways and I don't have alot of time for royalty and people who think they deserve my courtesy.

[Cataholic]

Richard, I think I have posted this before, and it goes right in hand with your post. Jonah LOVES to hold the door open for people at his nursery school. (It irritates me, cause it makes me later than I want to be :)). You would be amazed at the number of WOMEN- MOTHERS of small children themselves- walk by as if the cannot see a 4 year old holding the door for them. It makes me so flipping angry. The look in his eye sometimes...and, I do not make excuses for them. I tell him, flat out, "they have no manners, Jonah, but, you do and that is great!".

I don't care if they hear or not. And, yes, I realize that is rude of me. You hurt MY feelings, I will deal with it. You hurt my child's feelings, you'll deal with me. :) Seems fair.

I have held my fair share of doors, elevators, to other women, and they are usually lacking in the 'thank you' department.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I hold the door for ANYONE...male female or unknown -- young or old it really doesn't matter to me..

As the great Betty Freidan said...when a man apologized to her for holding the door..."I would have done the same thing for you if I had gotten there first."

I hold the door for people because it is the polite thing to do...not for the thank you.

(And yes...I am effusive if a young person holds the door for me and thank anyone who does.)

[Cataholic]

I hold the door for people because it is the polite thing to do...not for the thank you.

And, it is polite to utter a thank you, or a smile of recognition. :p

[Edwina's Secretary]

And, it is polite to utter a thank you, or a smile of recognition. :p

I can only control what I do ..not the other guy...:p

I'd like to expand...I hold the door because that is what I was taught to do. Of course a "thank you" is nice and expected. But I do not know if the person's mother just died, they just got fired, they are puzzling out the solution to world peace and are distracted.

So if someone doesn't thank me...I will not let that make me behave in a way that is not polite. Kind of ruins the whole thing, doesn't it?

[RICHARD]

(And yes...I am effusive if a young person holds the door for me and thank anyone who does.)


I saw a doctor for my effusion.


Cat,

And don't stop hammering the point home for Jonah, I cannot believe you are irritated for raising a gentleman?:mad:

Get a grip woman. That's your legacy and the women in his life will say, "Your mama raised you right!" Of course, you won't be there when that happens, you have to cut the apron strings some day.

Get over your bad self!;)

[Twisterdog]

My sister talks a lot about going to school in the fifties and sixties ... she is seventeen years older than me. I swear, she is scarred for life by having to wear a dress every day. She said she has never been so cold in her life as riding a bus, walking to school, or standing out at recess in North Dakota when it was below zero every day, wearing a dress and dress shoes. All this while the boys wore pants, heavy coats and snowboots and had a ball playing. She said even when it was warm ... how do you play in a dress without boys seeing your underwear? So, I have to say good riddance to that silly rule!

I agree with Cataholic ... society has changed its views on children in the last forty years or so. And I think that is a good portion of the perceived change in manners.

It also depends a lot on the family, and the parents doing the teaching. I know a lot of people my sister's age who are rude and crass. And a lot of people my age (I grew up in the 70's and 80's) with very good manners. I was certainly raised to send thank you cards, address elders by Sir, Ma'am, Mr. or Mrs., say please, thank you and pardon me. I hold doors for anyone - doesn't the first one to a door always hold it? And my son, who is seventeen, was taught, and practices those same things, as do many of his friends.

[Cataholic]

Cat,

And don't stop hammering the point home for Jonah, I cannot believe you are irritated for raising a gentleman?:mad:

Get a grip woman. That's your legacy and the women in his life will say, "Your mama raised you right!" Of course, you won't be there when that happens, you have to cut the apron strings some day.

Get over your bad self!;)

Go read the other threads, Richard, I won't EVER be cutting those apron strings! :)

[Grace]

You know... as of late... I have been very impressed with the kids and teens I have come across.

I have heard A LOT of please, thank you, yes sir, yes ma'am, just general manners and polite behaviour... some even hold the door or pick up something you dropped to give it back to you etc etc.

Even at a hockey game we went to recently a group of highschool age kids were at the game... it was a bus group so there was a lot of them. and they were not out of control, if they needed by they said "excuse me" "sorry" and 'thank you" and other than the usual hockey game cheering they weren't obnoxious nor were they potty mouthed.

I just think the bad experiences stick out in our minds more than the good experiences.

As for the sir/ma'am/mr/mrs thing.... I agree with cataholic... it's appropriate to call an adult sir or ma'am etc if you don't really know them so well or who have requested you call them that or not specifically stated that you can call them by their first name. I will do my best to teach Hannah to refer to adults and sir and ma'am but if they request she call them by their first name i will not object... it was at their request.

I'm so glad to hear what you say in your first couple of paragraphs. It's the please and thank you that I like to hear - and many times don't these days. I, personally don't care if anyone calls me Mrs. or by my first name, but a modicum of politeness is greatly appreciated.

As far as age, I predate both pomtzu and Medusa. I remember when my mother would dress to the nines, with hat and gloves when going downtown to shop. I much prefer the more casual life styles of today.

[Catlady711]

First I had a couple comments individually that sparked something for me, then I'll get on to my general consensus on the matter, not that anyone actually cares but I'll do it anyways because people can always skim past it if they don't want to read it. lol


In school, we had to line up in two rows every morning and follow the teacher to our classroom, girls in their own classroom and boys in theirs. The playground was divided up by a thick white line, so girls and boys didn't mix. We accepted it as normal, even though, today, I can’t see it was an advantage for anyone, it probably made all of us more shy to the opposite sex.


Actually I see a great advantage (18 and under). If both sexes aren't allowed to mix freely then it makes those times (dances, dates etc) more special when they are allowed to mix instead of being taken for granted. If the sexes aren't allowed to mix and are shy with each other, in my opinon, we'd go back to having far less teen pregnancies, although that part would also require society to go back to being shocked when teens are kissing passionately in public, holding hands in public, and hugging freely in affection. That ain't likely to happen again, but it was a combination of societies views and separation or restriction of mixing of sexes that kept the unwed mothers to more of a shocking minimum IMHO.



As you say, if it's at the adult's request, then that's different. I mentioned that I told my neighbor's 10 year old son that he may call me Mary but his mother objected, saying that it's disrespectful.

I ran into that with one family at our church. While I greatly respect them for teaching their children manners and respect, I also think it's disrespectful to teach your children to call someone something they don't care for. To call someone Mr/Mrs when they specifically, and repeatedly ask otherwise is accomplishing the opposite result, it's offensive instead of respectful, IMHO.



Jonah LOVES to hold the door open for people at his nursery school. (It irritates me, cause it makes me later than I want to be :)). You would be amazed at the number of WOMEN- MOTHERS of small children themselves- walk by as if the cannot see a 4 year old holding the door for them.

I always make a fuss over the kids that hold the door for me, and usually look them in the eye, bend down a bit, and say 'thank you young man/lady'. The only exceptions I make to that is when some kids try to open a door that's way too big for them and throw a fit if you try to help, or the ones that may open the door but then stand in the way playing so you can't get through. Fortunately I don't encounter too many of those types.


As for my general concensus (sp?) I think it goes a bit deeper than has been touched upon so far. 'Back in the good 'ole days' there was one thing that was fairly constant that is completely missing today, even with the parents in some cases.

When I and my mom were kids the adults were allowed to punish the kids, and not just their own. Whether that meant a spanking, or squeezing your arm, getting down on your level, and staring at you while using a harsh tone didn't matter. The result was the same. Even if you did something wrong and your parents weren't present, there was always an adult around somewhere to catch you, punish you, and would report the incident to your parents who in turn would also punish you. There was no where you could 'get away' with much of anything.

In today's world we don't know or, in some cases, care about our neighbors. So it makes it kinda hard to report any behavior to the parents when you don't know which kid goes with which house. People come and go and ofttimes no one knows the difference.

In today's world if you report the problem to the parents you're lible to get your head bit off with swear words and 'who are you to pick on my child'. (actually have had this happen to me). Given that people tend to not do or say anything anymore, thus 'allowing' bad behaviour to continue and escalate.

In today's world people are under the misconception that you cannot touch a child for any reason. I can't recall where I read the article but there is no law against swatting your child with "some" force, on the behind only, fully clothed, and with an open hand, not leaving any marks or causing physical damage. I know many people, for whatever reason, are against spanking. I suppose that's their right and choice, and not all children actually require spanking to make them mind. I dissagree with the common notion that spanking kids properly, causes them to be violent people. I was raised with spanking, as was most of my family, my mom, my husband and his family, and most of the kids I went to school with. Not one of them has ever been arrested for violent behavior, assault, etc. I think allowing a child to get away with kicking/hitting people without reprocussions teaches them violence far more than spanking ever did. JMHO

Despite the fact that the ways of this world continually depress me, anger me, and drive me absolutely batty at times; there is nothing we can do to change it, unless we want to go the route the Amish/Mennonites have (not a bad idea actually, they have well behaved children).

Things will continue to get worse all the time. I can go on all day for weeks longing for the 'good 'ole days' and complain about modern times, but since there's nothing I can do about it, and I know how I get when I'm like that, I'll just refrain and end my monologue here.

[pomtzu]

As far as age, I predate both pomtzu and Medusa. I remember when my mother would dress to the nines, with hat and gloves when going downtown to shop. I much prefer the more casual life styles of today.

Oh how well I remember that! My mom passed away at 79, and it was only a couple of years prior to that, that I was able to convince her that she would be much more comfortable (and warm) if she would wear slacks around the house, rather than her traditional "house dress" and stockings. Of course, she would never wear them in public! :eek:
Give me my sweatshirt and sweatpants - then I'm a happy (and warm) camper! :D

[Medusa]

I hold the door for ANYONE...male female or unknown -- young or old it really doesn't matter to me..

As the great Betty Freidan said...when a man apologized to her for holding the door..."I would have done the same thing for you if I had gotten there first."

I hold the door for people because it is the polite thing to do...not for the thank you.

This is the true reason for courtesy, not because it's expected of us, but because it makes life that much more pleasant for us all.

[Medusa]

As far as age, I predate both pomtzu and Medusa. I remember when my mother would dress to the nines, with hat and gloves when going downtown to shop. I much prefer the more casual life styles of today.

Yes, we did that, too. It was so much fun. When we were 16, my best friend and I traveled to D.C. on the train and we were dressed to the nines, as you say. We walked all over D.C. in a suit, heels and pill box hat. (Jackie Kennedy had quite an influence on us.) We even walked to the top of the Washington Monument dressed like that! (I'm not saying we were smart, just fashionable. LOL)

[Grace]

Yes, we did that, too. It was so much fun. When we were 16, my best friend and I traveled to D.C. on the train and we were dressed to the nines, as you say. We walked all over D.C. in a suit, heels and pill box hat. (Jackie Kennedy had quite an influence on us.) We even walked to the top of the Washington Monument dressed like that! (I'm not saying we were smart, just fashionable. LOL)

I'm sure I could have done something like that back then, but right now my feet ache just thinking about wearing heels in the Monument :o

[Twisterdog]

LOL ... speaking of dressing up vs. dressing down ....

I own one black dress. I wear it funerals. Period. (Obviously I dressed differently when I had a "real" job.)

My grandmother, OTOH, never once in her 99 years, wore a pair of pants. She wore a dress, silk nylons with a garter belt (never panty hose), high heeled dress shoes, a brooch and pearl necklace, every day of her life.

No. Thank. You. I might look like a slob compared to her, but I know I'm way more comfortable.

[shepgirl]

Can't remember when we've had such a great discussion about something worthwhile.
I must have grown up in the same era as Medussa and Pomtzu because as I read Medussa's post I had to pinch myself to make sure I didn't write it.
From the dress code to the Mr. and Mrs. there was't one thing we did different when I was growing up. My dad was a miner and my mom a school teacher but she taught only after we were in school ourselves. She was still the mom who made meals, laundry, baking and cleaning. We didn't ever need for anything but the one thing I remember is that most kids had more things than we did. I think my mom being raised without much and going through the depression made her want to instill a sense of values in us to teach us one had to earn what one got.
I do remember that when we went someplace we knew better than to misbehave, we knew the consequences of bad or rude behaviour and for some reason we respected that.
I do miss that old world where people were respectful and helpful. I remember thinking our son was too strict with his children but now that they are growing up I see he was right and I was just being a granny.
Must say some teens today do surprise me with their good behaviour though. I've run into teens that looked like they would knock me over but to my surprise they offered me help with doors and such in a courteous and kind manner.

[Giselle]

As a representative of the "ME" generation, I have to speak up.

There are too many points to hit, so I'll hit the one that I think really epitomizes the cultural shift (shall we call it a paradigm shift? Only time will tell...)

RE: Titles of Ms./Mr./etc.

- I don't use titles. So shoot me. I don't use titles not because I am deliberately rude but because I believe titles preclude a relationship to hierarchal structures of subordinate vs. dominant. Although you (the elder generation) may not see it that way, this is how my generation has come to view titles. We see them as stuffy, static, and unnecessary. I call adults by their first names because I believe that it brings us into a more meaningful rapport. We are equals. We are human. We learn from each other. I call them by their first names. They call me by mine. I refuse to be limited by my age or societal norms. It may seem chaotic to you, but to me and my generation, it is a sign of our liberation, of our responsibilities, of our dignity. When we call elders by their first name, we do so because we respect them as our friends, our companions, our PEERS. Yes, peers. Gone are the days when professors lectured you, the subordinate student. Gone are the days of incontrovertible submission.

Institutions of higher level education now view their students as invaluable as the professors themselves. Certain colleges, for example, are now restructuring their schools so that students MUST, at some point, "bump" into a professor during their studies and build a relationship of mutual learning. This is the "ME" generation. We are not deliberately rude. We have simply been taught that everybody is equal, that certain social constructs (as history has taught us) deserve to be questioned, that human dignity is to be respected - even the dignity of a child or teenager. We have been taught equality - that it surpasses the limitations of economic status, race, gender, and, YES, age.

That is why I so fondly call you all on PT by your first names. :)

[Edwina's Secretary]

As a representative of the "ME" generation, I have to speak up.

There are too many points to hit, so I'll hit the one that I think really epitomizes the cultural shift (shall we call it a paradigm shift? Only time will tell...)

RE: Titles of Ms./Mr./etc.

- I don't use titles. So shoot me. I don't use titles not because I am deliberately rude but because I believe titles preclude a relationship to hierarchal structures of subordinate vs. dominant. Although you (the elder generation) may not see it that way, this is how my generation has come to view titles. We see them as stuffy, static, and unnecessary. I call adults by their first names because I believe that it brings us into a more meaningful rapport. We are equals. We are human. We learn from each other. I call them by their first names. They call me by mine. I refuse to be limited by my age or societal norms. It may seem chaotic to you, but to me and my generation, it is a sign of our liberation, of our responsibilities, of our dignity. When we call elders by their first name, we do so because we respect them as our friends, our companions, our PEERS. Yes, peers. Gone are the days when professors lectured you, the subordinate student. Gone are the days of incontrovertible submission.

Institutions of higher level education now view their students as invaluable as the professors themselves. Certain colleges, for example, are now restructuring their schools so that students MUST, at some point, "bump" into a professor during their studies and build a relationship of mutual learning. This is the "ME" generation. We are not deliberately rude. We have simply been taught that everybody is equal, that certain social constructs (as history has taught us) deserve to be questioned, that human dignity is to be respected - even the dignity of a child or teenager. We have been taught equality - that it surpasses the limitations of economic status, race, gender, and, YES, age.

That is why I so fondly call you all on PT by your first names. :)

How sad. Many cultures do still have a respect for elders.

I am curious though...you call all your teachers by their first name? You call your parents by their first names? And your grandparents? And when you go to the doctor your call him/her by first name?

It has nothing to do with equality. It has to do with respect. It has to do with what I want to be called. Is THAT not as important as your freedom to call me anything you want? Or is it....all about what you want? just all about you?

[caseysmom]

I have met Giselle, a more respectful young lady you will never meet.

[Twisterdog]

How sad. Many cultures do still have a respect for elders.

I am curious though...you call all your teachers by their first name? You call your parents by their first names? And your grandparents? And when you go to the doctor your call him/her by first name?

It has nothing to do with equality. It has to do with respect. It has to do with what I want to be called. Is THAT not as important as your freedom to call me anything you want? Or is it....all about what you want?

I agree. And, seeing as I grew up in the 70's and 80's, am I a member of the "ME" generation?

Calling someone "Mrs. Jones" does not make you submissive. It simply reflects that this person deserves some respect for the 70 or 80 years of life experience she has.

If someone asks me to address him as "John", I certainly will. Otherwise, I will call him Mr. Smith. Not because I think he's better than me ... I'm not that insecure ... but because I don't know him well.

I don't think it has much to do with age at all. My mother is almost 80 years old, and addresses her few remaining elders respectfully. I am forty, and do the same.

I prefer not to be called "Ma'am", it makes me feel old. My mom likes to be called "Grandma" ... by every child she meets. My dad thought a lot of people who called him "Sir" when they met him. I agree, it is up the person being addressed to determine what they are called.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I have met Giselle, a more respectful young lady you will never meet.

And if I said to her I want to be called Ms. Whatever...would she respect my wishes?

[caseysmom]

I can't speak for her but I wouldn't :p

[Catlady711]

As a representative of the "ME" generation, I have to speak up.

I believe titles preclude a relationship to hierarchal structures of subordinate vs. dominant....
We see them as stuffy, static, and unnecessary....

We are equals....

I refuse to be limited by my age or societal norms....

Gone are the days when professors lectured you, the subordinate student. Gone are the days of incontrovertible submission.

We have simply been taught that everybody is equal, that certain social constructs (as history has taught us) deserve to be questioned.... We have been taught equality - that it surpasses the limitations of economic status, race, gender, and, YES, age.




What those parts say to me (in a broad sense) is 'I'll do what I want, be submissive to no one for any reason, and question anyone in authority'. That's how I take those statements, no matter how polite, nice or sweet you may actually be in other areas.

[Grace]

And if I said to her I want to be called Ms. Whatever...would she respect my wishes?


I can't speak for her but I wouldn't :p

You wouldn't respect someone's wishes? Why not? Would you then expect them to respect yours?

[caseysmom]

You wouldn't respect someone's wishes? Why not? Would you then expect them to respect yours?

You are taking me too seriously.

[caseysmom]

What those parts say to me (in a broad sense) is 'I'll do what I want, be submissive to no one for any reason, and question anyone in authority'. That's how I take those statements, no matter how polite, nice or sweet you may actually be in other areas.

I would be willing to go out on a limb here and guess that giselle has never been in any kind of trouble at school...so this is a little off base.

[Catlady711]

I would be willing to go out on a limb here and guess that giselle has never been in any kind of trouble at school...so this is a little off base.


It's obvious that you are a good friend to her and like her very much which is great. However I never said she was in any, or caused trouble, in school or out. I was simply responding in a general way with how I take her general views on her generation. There is nothing 'off base' about it.

[caseysmom]

It's obvious that you are a good friend to her and like her very much which is great. However I never said she was in any, or caused trouble, in school or out. I was simply responding in a general way with how I take her general views on her generation. There is nothing 'off base' about it.

Actually we have met once but I have read her posts for years. In comparison to Giselle in years I am a lot older but in maturity and intellect she is my equal...or actually she is brighter than I am for sure.

[Giselle]

It's not sad at all.

No, I do not call my teachers or parents or grandparents by their first names. That is something entirely different. I'm talking specifically about adults we meet OUTSIDE work and school and nearly all of these adults introduce themselves to me by their first names. That tells me that they desire to be called by their first names. If I have never met a person before and they introduce themselves with a title, I will of course call them by their title (mostly because they have not told me their first name :P). However, if we have become closer, I will initiate and ask if I can call them by their first name. Most people are flattered because it means that we have reached a level in our relationship that we are familiar enough and respect each other enough to be on such intimate terms.

It's not about "I want this my way, so I'm going to do to you however I want". It's about respecting a person enough so that you see him or her as a friend and companion. To the "Me" generation, Mr/Ms.-Whoever is impersonal, as if there is something to be hidden. First names are intimate. I ask folks if I can call them by their first names because I want to seek that level of intimacy in our relationships. It's NOT disrespectful. It's exactly the opposite. It's about knowing and interacting with somebody on a more personal, profound level.

If there is an explicit request to be called by a title, why would I ever refuse to do so? You guys are taking my words entirely out of context. I merely attempted to explain why so many teenagers PREFER to use first names - because it is personal, it's intimate, it (to us) strengthens a relationship. Is that so disrespectful? Well, you've floored me there because everybody I've met/"met" (in terms of the Internet) always addresses me by my first name and prefers to be called by their first names as well. I didn't know I was being disrespectful by abiding by their wishes.

Also, as for the "other cultures". I'm a Chinese-American. Of all cultures, the Chinese culture immortalizes its elders. In our culture, names are an entirely different story. We don't have broad equivalents of Mr./Ms./whatever but rather specific titles for specific people. First names are also less important than last names. It's a very different story with a very different history.

[sumbirdy]

I am part of the "ME" generation as well, I suppose (I'm 19) and I find it uncomfortable to call anyone by their first name if they are more than 10 years older than me (unless they ask me too) I was raised that way, to respect my elders. I say please, thank you, excuse me ect... I hold doors open for people, I help wherever I can.

I have to say that I disagree with Giselle. I don't believe the use of titles limits me or says that I am not equal with my elders. I don't believe it takes away my dignity, responsiblilty. I am very opinionated, but I know that calling someone Mrs./Mr. doesn't tell them that they are not my friend. People older than me deserve my respect as do people younger. I have often heard people call children Miss or Master. And yes I said often, but maybe that is because I am from the south, where manners are more often found it seems (although I have met some VERY polite northerners:))

The one thing I don't believe in is for younger people to only speak when spoken to. Besides being taught all of the above, I was taught to be independent, to have a mind of my own, to be creative, to listen to what my elders have to teach me and if I perceive something to be wrong to politely state my opinion (and I have so often found that I am wrong)

I tend to speak to people more freely over the internet since sometimes I don't know the ages, or names in some cases, of who I am talking to (that mostly refers to this board) and am sorry if I have been unintentionally rude to anyone here.

[Karen]

Giselle, don't you worry. You were not even born when the "ME" generation term was first applied. It was used to refer to Baby Boomers, I was born just after the Boomers by most counts, so my two elder siblings (we are spread apart in age) are considered "boomers." When I was in college, my mom once said to me, "You know, your age group is far more polite. I had a kid your age open a door for me today, say 'please' and "you're welcome' and I don;t remember the last time one of the "ME" generation did that."

Ma was pretty observant, but of course we were expected to behave properly and be respectful to people regardless of what was expected of our peers. I remember my neighbor's parents telling me I should call them "Ken" and "Nancy" but I just couldn't! They were my friend's parents! It was just too weird, so I still called them "Mrs. ***" and "Mr. ***" and they got used to it.

I, on the other hand, still smile internally when someone calls me Ma'am - I have to remember that time has indeed gone by, and I am as old as their parents, often!

I am now more flexible. If I knew your name was Mary Jones, and you asked me to call you Ms. Jones, instead of Mary, for example, I would. And vice versa. I only corrected the little kids next door when I moved here, because they knew my aunt's last name, so they'd call me Mrs. B***** too, so I'd say, "No, my last name is Watts, but you can call me Karen if that's easier." Trying to explain that Mrs. B****** was my Great Aunt on my mother's side, and we both changed our past names when we got married, so never had a last name in common, she was my grandmother's sister, and Grandma changed Her last name when she married ... that was a little much for a 5-year-old (the oldest of them) to grasp.

[Giselle]

Ah, didn't know the exact time frames, but that's good to know!

Of course, one can be a friend, and a close one at that, with somebody whom one refers to by a title. But to me and my peers, the ability to call somebody by their first name means that you have achieved a certain level of intimacy, which is why I and my peers enjoy/prefer being on first-name-terms with many of our adult peers and companions (who, as I explained before, exist OUTSIDE of school and work and similar professional areas).

I just really fail to see how it's disrespectful to enjoy and to seek being on such intimate terms with a person. Like I said before, my neighbors and other such adults have always introduced themselves by their first names. That signals to me that they desire to be called by their first names, and I hardly see how it would be disrespectful, then, to address them without a title.

[RICHARD]

As a representative of the "ME" generation, I have to speak up.

There are too many points to hit, so I'll hit the one that I think really epitomizes the cultural shift (shall we call it a paradigm shift? Only time will tell...)

RE: Titles of Ms./Mr./etc.

- I don't use titles. So shoot me. I don't use titles not because I am deliberately rude but because I believe titles preclude a relationship to hierarchal structures of subordinate vs. dominant. Although you (the elder generation) may not see it that way, this is how my generation has come to view titles. We see them as stuffy, static, and unnecessary. I call adults by their first names because I believe that it brings us into a more meaningful rapport. We are equals. We are human. We learn from each other. I call them by their first names. They call me by mine. I refuse to be limited by my age or societal norms. It may seem chaotic to you, but to me and my generation, it is a sign of our liberation, of our responsibilities, of our dignity. When we call elders by their first name, we do so because we respect them as our friends, our companions, our PEERS. Yes, peers. Gone are the days when professors lectured you, the subordinate student. Gone are the days of incontrovertible submission.

Institutions of higher level education now view their students as invaluable as the professors themselves. Certain colleges, for example, are now restructuring their schools so that students MUST, at some point, "bump" into a professor during their studies and build a relationship of mutual learning. This is the "ME" generation. We are not deliberately rude. We have simply been taught that everybody is equal, that certain social constructs (as history has taught us) deserve to be questioned, that human dignity is to be respected - even the dignity of a child or teenager. We have been taught equality - that it surpasses the limitations of economic status, race, gender, and, YES, age.

That is why I so fondly call you all on PT by your first names. :)


Dude,

I would have saved time and just said, "I choose not to".

That generation didn't change any of the Societal/Heirarchal/Paradigm anything.

IT was all ignored because it was all in response to the Question Authority/Don't trust anyone over 40 mantra.

------------------


When some snob I address as Mr/Mrs or Miss jumps all over my arse about it-I tell them I was raised to be respectful. That will usually shoot them off the horse they rode in on.

I elevate people by addressing them with a title because, even tho I am an equal, I choose to show them a modicum of respect and dignity.



Oh, Did I use Modicum?:rolleyes::eek:

[pomtzu]

Hmmmm....... Some very interesting posts since I left last night.

And speaking of the term "ma'am" - that brings to mind another issue of using that term. Early on in my business career, I attended a seminar, in which phone etiquette was addressed. It is considered NOT polite to use this term when speaking to a woman on the phone, especially since you probably don't know her age, and even tho you may think you're being polite, "ma'am" denotes a woman of age, and she could be offended by the implication. On the other hand, referring to a man as "sir" is more acceptable. Talk about double standards!

And then there is my big pet peeve - being called "dear", or "hon", or "sweetie" by a total stranger - such as a store clerk. They may think they're being friendly, but to me, they are being extremely rude. I see red when this happens! And unfortunately, it is usually the middle to older age group of folks who take this liberty. Shame on them - they should know better! :eek:

[Twisterdog]

And then there is my big pet peeve - being called "dear", or "hon", or "sweetie" by a total stranger - such as a store clerk.

This used to bother me too, but I gave up. For some reason, the vast majority of my customers call me these things, all the time. Silly, but at least nice, I suppose. Far better than them calling me other names! :eek:

Karen ... and I always thought the "Me" generation was the people growing up in the 70's? Or was that the "Me" decade?

I'm a member of the mysterious "Generation X" ... I remember when we in high school and college, every newspaper and magazine article you read about us was sure we were a bunch of worthless slackers, headed to hell in a handbasket and taking the country with us. Hmmm ... seems we weren't the spawn of Satan afterall, and now we seem like the old fuddy duddies. As it is with every generation, from the beginning of time until the end.

Time marches on ... time marches on

[Randi]

Addressing people is even more complicated in Denmark. In the old days, everyone said:

Herr = Mr.
Fru = Madam = Ma'am I guess
Froeken = Miss

We also had Du = you (informal) for friends/family, and De = you (formal) for strangers/collegues/in shops etc.

Then, sometime during the 70ties, it was decided that everyone should say Du. I found it very weird to begin with, and especially when writing to someone official or sending a job application. Once you sit in front of people, it's easier. In that situation, everyone will say Du these days, and I find it natural now.

If someone in a street says Ma'am to me, I really do feel old.

[Cataholic]

Maybe I am one of the few, but, I do not object to the term 'honey', 'sugar', etc. If they were meaning to be rude, the term would start with another letter of the alphabet, closer to the beginning. :eek:

I guess we all have our peculiarities. I dislike titles, don't want anyone to call me by my professional title, and if it is going to be a 'relationship', I like to get first names on the table promptly. My reasoning is similar to Giselle's and I would guess I am old enough to be her mommy. :D

In college, we called ALL professors by their first name. All of them. That was what they wanted/professed to want, anyhow. That was in the mid 80s. In the latter 80s I began my career with an insurance company. The boss made everyone, but me, call him by his last name. He was branch manager, I was an adjuster( the only position considered psuedo-management, other than the other manager)...he made all the inside 'girls' call him Mr. That was totally about submissiveness, and maybe peculiar to his ate-up personality. The other manager in the office had people call him by his first name. I will share with you, at least in that office, the relationships the men had with their workers was very different- people got along well with the first name guy. Again, that could be just personality styles.

Today, the women I work with have finally accepted my wishes to be called J over the loud speaker, not Ms. H. It peeved me. Do they respect me any less? No. (it is debatable they respect me at all:p). I don't like formality. I am kind of an 'insta-friend' with people, and that can be difficult for others to deal with....but, it is me.

ES- I would call you whatever you wished to be called, as long as you fed me. :)

[pomtzu]

Maybe I am one of the few, but, I do not object to the term 'honey', 'sugar', etc. If they were meaning to be rude, the term would start with another letter of the alphabet, closer to the beginning. :eek:



IMO - using those terms of endearment to address a total stranger is not at all appropriate. It implies an intimate knowledge (no-not of a sexual nature!) of this person. My family and close friends can call me that - and I welcome it - but a total stranger has no business using those terms with me. I'd rather be called "ma-am" - after all - I do fit in that implied old age category! :eek: LOL

[Cataholic]

IMO - using those terms of endearment to address a total stranger is not at all appropriate. It implies an intimate knowledge (no-not of a sexual nature!) of this person.

And, that is what makes us so special and unique! It bothers me not at all. Some of my older clients- both genders- call me that. :) Maybe cause my first name is so difficult to pronouce? LOL.

[Edwina's Secretary]

It's not about "I want this my way, so I'm going to do to you however I want". It's about respecting a person enough so that you see him or her as a friend and companion. To the "Me" generation, Mr/Ms.-Whoever is impersonal, as if there is something to be hidden. First names are intimate. I ask folks if I can call them by their first names because I want to seek that level of intimacy in our relationships. It's NOT disrespectful. It's exactly the opposite. It's about knowing and interacting with somebody on a more personal, profound level.



I am not interested in knowing everyone on a profound and intimate level.

I am not interested in being friends and companions with everyone I meet.

And what you are saying is the same thing the It generation said, the Boomers, The Bloomers the Xs and every other generation that came before you.

It is a way of finding yourself and rebelling and having been one myself...I should give you that.

[shepgirl]

Guess I'm just stuck in the old fashioned upbringing I had. I still call people MR. MRS. or Sir. If these people become close friends by all means we do call each other by our first names but otherwise I would become tongue tied calling people older than myself by their first names. And I also don't like being called dearie, honey or sweetheart by clerks or other stranfers. It just makes me squirm. Guess we all have our preferences, just the way I was raised I guess. A bit straight laced maybe but I raised my kids the same way. I've known some colleages for ages and we are close but I still refer to them as Mr. or Mrs. because they are older and more experienced than I am .

[pomtzu]

And, that is what makes us so special and unique!

Exactly!!!:) What a dull world this would be if we were all from the same mold! :eek:

[sasvermont]

Hmmmm, I will pause the next time I call someone deary or sweetheart, but it won't stop me! I usually pick the name to fit the situation and person. I can't control myself sometimes. I would never have thought that someone would think ill of me if I called them deary etc. etc. To each his own! I think endearment is nice! I would love to think that I had endeared myself to someone.....and imagine it to be a complete stranger! I am a happy go lucky type of person in many ways and will continue on with it!

Would it be better to call the others (strangers) - dude or dudette? Just kidding. Isn't it funny how different a take we have on things in life? And isn't it nice that we can all talk about junk like this and still get along!!!

Don't laugh, I call a close friend of mine dudette. I won't and cannot tell you what she calls me!!!!

[pomtzu]

I would love to think that I had endeared myself to someone.....and imagine it to be a complete stranger!

:D But.............
Just think. That person calling you dear or hon, is probably calling everyone else the same! :p That's not a very endearing thought IMO. Just take a look at those in line behind you at the checkout sometime - not always of the dear or hon class. LOL :eek:

[Catlady711]

aI'm a member of the mysterious "Generation X" ... I remember when we in high school and college, every newspaper and magazine article you read about us was sure we were a bunch of worthless slackers, headed to hell in a handbasket and taking the country with us. Hmmm ... seems we weren't the spawn of Satan afterall, and now we seem like the old fuddy duddies. As it is with every generation, from the beginning of time until the end.



This is where I think it comes down to part parenting and part society in general.

If you think about it, Baby Boomers raised the Gen. X crowd which many, as you say, complained they were slackers. Gen. X rised the Gen. Y crowd which is apparently having the same complaints.

In each succesive generation, no matter which one, or how far back you go, always complains about the lack of respect and work ethic of the previous generation, the generation that in fact raised them.

For a new group of youngsters to rebell they have to take it one step further than the generation before them, or it's not rebelling. And each generation will complain about the generations after them.

Kinda a vicious circle with no way to stop it or turn it back.

[sasvermont]

Hey Ms. Pom,

Remember that not everyone qualifies to be called dear or honey. I, for example, save it for special people and circumstances and I trust if anyone is calling me dear or honey, they are responding to my being extremely nice to them, again special circumstances! I think of it as an exchange, not a given or everyday occurrence when dealing with the public!:) I earn my deary and honey terms and expect the recipients getting the terms from me, to do the same! I am not sure we are thinking of the exchange in the same light. That's OK.

[pomtzu]

Hey Ms. Pom,

Remember that not everyone qualifies to be called dear or honey. I, for example, save it for special people and circumstances and I trust if anyone is calling me dear or honey, they are responding to my being extremely nice to them, again special circumstances! I think of it as an exchange, not a given or everyday occurrence when dealing with the public!:) I earn my deary and honey terms and expect the recipients getting the terms from me, to do the same! I am not sure we are thinking of the exchange in the same light. That's OK.

Ms Pom isn't necessary. You can call me Ellie! :D

Let me clarify - my gripe is with people who call EVERYBODY that! I used to work in an office with a girl that called everyone "hon". She was young enough to be my daughter, and tho I did like her, I was not happy with the way she addressed me. I would have preferred she call me Ellie and I asked her to do so - since that's my name. It's almost like she couldn't take the time to remember people's names - so everyone was "hon".

[RICHARD]

I have to laugh about the comments regarding "Ma'am".

I went to a Catholic school for years.

Ma'am, Sir and all the other prefixes are BURNED INTO MY HEAD.

For me it's almost an automatic response.

I can use it to be a sarcastic response. When I want to. I use it to acknowledge a request, order or to let that person know that I have heard what they have said and have no questions about it. So, TO ME, it's an affirmative and in no way is meant to demean or comment on your age or station in life.

I got into a hassle with one woman who was the worst piece of crap on the planet. This 'woman' was an effing troll -with a bad wig to boot- and a real work of art.

Her idea of communication was to be rude, insult you and make you feel stupid.
I made the mistake of calling her, Ma'am and she jumped all over me about it.
Instead, I was counseled, I was to call her by her last name. HitShed.:rolleyes:;)

Her little game was to give you her information at her speed. NO ONE WAS GOING TO GET IT ANY FASTER- so when I tried to show the proper amount of deference and be nice when I spoke to her, I got my arse handed to me.

Later on, I did it on purpose because I wanted her to know and feel that she was being an AH and I had no bearing on her job, she was too stupid or nasty to elevate, Her background-oh, she made it very clear that "some people" (men) were not going to tell her what or how to do things, and that she was not interested in learning how to run any type of tech to make her job easier.


SOOOOOOOOOOO, don't feel OLD when someone call you Ma'am, think of the deference they are showing you. When, I am reminded of that-I apologize and explain why I do it.

Sorry, I went to Catholic school and they taught me manners.


Catlady,

EFFING A STRAIGHT! Each succeeding Gen loses a little of the respect that they should have taken from their mentors.

The people who choose not to be assigned an 'honorific' should stop and then think about me speaking to THEIR PARENTS without that kind of respect.

"You were rude to my parents!" SO WHAT?:eek::rolleyes:

---------------

Without my glasses on MS. POM, looks like MS. PORN!:eek:;)


I love to laugh and share jokes with people.

My line about being called HON is relatively easy.

I say to the woman, "You can call me by my first name, Atilla".

Everyone laughs, I don't take exception and the world keeps spinning.

[Medusa]

I got into a hassle with one woman who was the worst piece of crap on the planet. This 'woman' was an effing troll -with a bad wig to boot- and a real work of art.

her last name. HitShed.:rolleyes:;)

she was too stupid or nasty to elevate


Sorry, I went to Catholic school and they taught me manners.



So Richard...which part of the above is considered to be good manners? I understand resenting being condescended to but do you think that responding in kind improves the situation or makes it worse? I think you're better than that.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Let me clarify - my gripe is with people who call EVERYBODY that! I used to work in an office with a girl that called everyone "hon". She was young enough to be my daughter, and tho I did like her, I was not happy with the way she addressed me. I would have preferred she call me Ellie and I asked her to do so - since that's my name. It's almost like she couldn't take the time to remember people's names - so everyone was "hon".

This reminds me of a teacher I work with- she calls everyone (except maybe the principal) "kiddo." Actual kids, me, other teachers, you name it. It's kind of funny. I don't mind but I do find it a little odd- she's probably about 15 years older than me, but she calls teachers who are older than her kiddo too. :)

[carole]

Now keeping in mind i have not read all the posts here, but just wanted to make a comment, i was raised with manners being very important, and i tried to pass that on to my own children, i succeeded somewhat,as my grandfather used to say, they are not too heavy to carry around lol.

Some of the old ways were indeed good, but i am also glad some of them have disappeared today, and we live in my mind ,in a much easier going society.

Pleases,thank you's, opening doors, or respecting your elders, are ones that i still do and wanted my children to do.

I think the one thing that bothers me the most today, is the bad language, that is spoken in public everywhere, not one time do i go shopping in town, do i not hear the F word spoken by young woman and men, and sometimes older ones too, it is a shame that society accepts it as the normal and i am not one who never swears, but i just wish when out i did not have to hear it spoken over and over again, like it is everyday acceptable language.


One thing i find funny is my father thinks it is bad manners to wear a hat or cap inside,now my son and daughter both do this, and i have no problem with it what so ever, he thinks it is bad manners, which i find silly, but i guess that was how it was in his day.:)i tell him he has to move with the times.

[shepgirl]

This has been one of the best discussions ever on the forum. Very interesting to read other people's views on how they like to be addressed. I think calling me dear or honey reminds me of how hospitals use that term for elderly sick patients to make them feel cared for. And I find that an appropriate place to use it. When I get there I might not mind anymore, for now if they smile and say "have a nice day" it's perfect.

Richard - I remember getting sent to my room for calling my brother a stupid dummy when I was about 11 yrs old...don't even remember why I even called him that, I just remember my mother's tone of voice and her eyes as I marched upstairs to my room. As I recall I never used those words again...

[RICHARD]

So Richard...which part of the above is considered to be good manners? I understand resenting being condescended to but do you think that responding in kind improves the situation or makes it worse? I think you're better than that.

Ah,

She came down on my chacha in the rudest manner- talking me to 'task' in front of a desk of nurses. She was a clerk and it was her thing to embarass people in front of others.

I never 'dissed' her in front of anyone. I always held my tongue and treated her the way I wanted to be treated. But, god help me, I never could or would ever consider this miserable woman as anything equal to me.

I kept my evil thoughts in my head and never said a cross word to her face.
I waited until I went back to my offoce and did the slow burn on the way.

MY dad always told me to smile when face to face with a person and you can say chinga tu madre to them in your head.

[carole]

Woah that sounds rather a nice way of saying something so bad, he he, i looked it up and i know what it means Richard lol.:love:

[Twisterdog]

I think the one thing that bothers me the most today, is the bad language, that is spoken in public everywhere, not one time do i go shopping in town, do i not hear the F word spoken by young woman and men, and sometimes older ones too, it is a shame that society accepts it as the normal and i am not one who never swears, but i just wish when out i did not have to hear it spoken over and over again, like it is everyday acceptable language.

I totally agree with this! Not that I never swear, not that I never use the F word ... not proud of it, but hey, I do sometimes. However, when you stand in line at a grocery store for five minutes and hear the F-bomb at least 100 times, that's absurd. I know people who literally cannot complete one sentence without using some variation of that word multiple times.

My son swears like a sailor around his friends, I'm sure. But he never swears around me, or his grandma. As it should be.

I have no problem saying to people in public, "Excuse me. That is very inappropriate language to use in a store. It offends me. Please don't swear like that in public." I have done it too many times to count. And the response is always the same ... they blink, look shocked, look terribly embarrassed, and say, "I'm so sorry, Ma'am." And instantly stop swearing. Try it.

[Medusa]

Now keeping in mind i have not read all the posts here, but just wanted to make a comment, i was raised with manners being very important, and i tried to pass that on to my own children, i succeeded somewhat,as my grandfather used to say, they are not too heavy to carry around lol.

Some of the old ways were indeed good, but i am also glad some of them have disappeared today, and we live in my mind ,in a much easier going society.

Pleases,thank you's, opening doors, or respecting your elders, are ones that i still do and wanted my children to do.

I think the one thing that bothers me the most today, is the bad language, that is spoken in public everywhere, not one time do i go shopping in town, do i not hear the F word spoken by young woman and men, and sometimes older ones too, it is a shame that society accepts it as the normal and i am not one who never swears, but i just wish when out i did not have to hear it spoken over and over again, like it is everyday acceptable language.


One thing i find funny is my father thinks it is bad manners to wear a hat or cap inside,now my son and daughter both do this, and i have no problem with it what so ever, he thinks it is bad manners, which i find silly, but i guess that was how it was in his day.:)i tell him he has to move with the times.

I was raised w/that instilled in me as well; no hats on men indoors. Now baseball caps are a fashion statement, a tacky one at best, IMO, but I'm not offended by any means if I see someone wearing one.

[Medusa]

MY dad always told me to smile when face to face with a person and you can say chinga tu madre to them in your head.

I'm no saint and don't pretend to be but I think I'll stick to doing something that I was taught: shoot them in the back w/love. I can get riled but experience has taught me "least said, easiest mended" whether in my head or in actuality. And I think it's best to leave one's mother out of it.

[Catlady711]

One thing i find funny is my father thinks it is bad manners to wear a hat or cap inside,now my son and daughter both do this, and i have no problem with it what so ever, he thinks it is bad manners, which i find silly, but i guess that was how it was in his day.:)i tell him he has to move with the times.


Every time there's a lax of previous manners/courtesy, no matter how ridiculous such a little thing may be, it's just opens the door for more of the same on down the line.

Yes you're telling him to 'move with the times' but at the same time the next generation is telling you the same thing about opening doors, please and thank you, swearing, etc. It never ends, and never will so long as rebellion is considered normal and acceptable in our society.

[Twisterdog]

Every time there's a lax of previous manners/courtesy, no matter how ridiculous such a little thing may be, it's just opens the door for more of the same on down the line.

Yes you're telling him to 'move with the times' but at the same time the next generation is telling you the same thing about opening doors, please and thank you, swearing, etc. It never ends, and never will so long as rebellion is considered normal and acceptable in our society.

At one time, a lady showing her ankles in public was not only considered rude, it was illegal. At one time, people of different races would not have dreamed of speaking to each other on the street. At one time, people bathed only once a week, or once a month, or once a year. Obviously, someone started a rebellion against these things. Thank goodness, IMO.

What is actually normal and acceptable in our society, any society, is change. Manners, customs, norms, laws all change over time. A society that refuses to change ... vanishes.

[Catlady711]

At one time, a lady showing her ankles in public was not only considered rude, it was illegal. At one time, people of different races would not have dreamed of speaking to each other on the street. At one time, people bathed only once a week, or once a month, or once a year. Obviously, someone started a rebellion against these things. Thank goodness, IMO.

What is actually normal and acceptable in our society, any society, is change. Manners, customs, norms, laws all change over time. A society that refuses to change ... vanishes.


One word.....

Amish

[carole]

catlady you do raise a very good point, and twisterdog, you are indeed brave to say that to people who offend you with bad language, it is actually against the law to swear as such in public i believe, but of course it is never enforced, or maybe i am wrong here, but i always thought it was at least down under.

I tried it once myself i was in burger king with my then young daughter, melissa was about six at the time, these young kids a bit older than her perhaps eight or ten were using the F word, i said something, all i got was more abuse and felt really intimidated, yes even by these children, i have since learn't to just try and close my ears to it all,except it is so hard when you here it everywhere, i am much the same as you twisterdog, i am no saint, but i do watch my P's and Q's in public and in front of children.

[pomtzu]

One word.....

Amish

If you're saying that the Amish don't change - that's not completely true. No - they haven't changed too much - nothing like the rest of society - but changes are there.

Some - not all of them, now have electricity in their homes, they use power tools, they RIDE in cars (but don't own them or drive them), use cell phones - and yes - they even shop at Walmart!!! :D

Small changes and a long time coming, but none-the-less, even they are changing to survive in this ever-changing world.

[pomtzu]

I was raised w/that instilled in me as well; no hats on men indoors. Now baseball caps are a fashion statement, a tacky one at best, IMO, but I'm not offended by any means if I see someone wearing one.

Yes, but when you come to the dining room table to eat - it's hats off and shirts on!

[Medusa]

Yes, but when you come to the dining room table to eat - it's hats off and shirts on!

Oh heavens, yes!

[RICHARD]

I'm no saint and don't pretend to be but I think I'll stick to doing something that I was taught: shoot them in the back w/love. I can get riled but experience has taught me "least said, easiest mended" whether in my head or in actuality. And I think it's best to leave one's mother out of it.

I decapitated this piece of garbage with my 'love' and she remained a bitter AH that was incapable of being civil to me or anyone else.

Her job was to submit a bi-weekly count of the patients that came to her area.
So, she her job was to count no higher than 60 on any given day, write it down on a piece of paper and at the end of the pay period, pick up a phone and leave me a message on voicemail or fax me the sheet.
I offered to do the count myself or go pick up the paperwork, meet her halfway, have them floor clerk do the count, pick it up or send it. I set up and EXCEL file so she could email it to me or the Finance office and offered to show her how to run it.

She complained that I was bullying her, I was a racist, I was trying to eliminate her job. If she took a day off she would hide the ledger or lock it up in her cupboards so no other person could help me. She would make me wait and pass the deadline for submitting the totals, The finance office would call me, I would call her, then call her boss and if I was lucky and she was in the mood, I would get my totals.

I told her boss that SHE would have to find a way to deliver the niumbers because I was tired of chasing her down and getting what I needed. She was a miserable FH dinosaur that refused to work and make a job that was pretty easy, easier.

EVERYONE in that surgery unit was afraid of her and even her spineless boss defered to her and let her run the area because they were afraid of a grievance based on whatever bug had crawled into her nasty old orifices.

There are only three idiots in my professional career that I totally dismissed as being petty pieces of crap. I always tried to be a courteous to them-and worked at it harder- because they found a way to be rude, obnoxious morons and I was going to stand above it and I did.

I had professional respect for them, but as human beings? She did the same thing to everyone she came in contact with, she treated everyone with the same disregard and malice.. She was noting but a miserable biddy who was out to make everyone pay for her bad attitude in life.

I usually have pity on such a poor human being, but she earned every ounce of my contempt and the way I felt about her.

Kill them with kindness?

Nope!

Let them die naturally and as miserable as possible, why take on a murder rap?

[Medusa]

I give up.

[RICHARD]

I give up.


Don't I get a white flag and a sword?:confused:

[Medusa]

Don't I get a white flag and a sword?:confused:

No, I'm not surrendering. I just give up.

[Cataholic]

I have given the look to people/young people that use bad language in front of my son. And, I have had others nudge their friend when the friend uses crude language in front of my son, and I always smile and say thank you to them for noticing.

As for baseball caps, I don't want J to grow up with a cap on his head, and will discourage him from wearing it at meals. Probably not indoors, but, at meals.

As for treating everyone the way I want to be treated, well, that only goes so far with me. Frankly, if someone repeatedly treats me poorly (which I can't say I really have had happen), I would probably give up. More often, I take the extra time/energy to get in good with them, and can get them to turn it around. Some people are just sour! :)

[RICHARD]

As for treating everyone the way I want to be treated, well, that only goes so far with me. Frankly, if someone repeatedly treats me poorly (which I can't say I really have had happen), I would probably give up.

AHA!

That's the way I feel.

My situation was WORK. I 'needed' her to complete my job and it got to the point where I had to keep pushing and get her out of my loop so I could get on with things.

None of the people in charge wanted to deal with her-becuase of her negativity and the fact that they didn't want to fight against one person's stupidity.

It was better to leave an ill mannered person alone, than it was to correct the situation.

---------------------

Manners and courtesy go far in business and providing services to a paying customer. I first become a polite consumer and then see what the company has to offer me.

If they are jerks or something is amiss, they get no return business.

If they meet me halfway, I may come back.

If they mow me over and knock me down with service?

They get a loyal customer. It's a small thing that benefits both of us.

[Catlady711]

If you're saying that the Amish don't change - that's not completely true. No - they haven't changed too much - nothing like the rest of society - but changes are there.

Some - not all of them, now have electricity in their homes, they use power tools, they RIDE in cars (but don't own them or drive them), use cell phones - and yes - they even shop at Walmart!!! :D

Small changes and a long time coming, but none-the-less, even they are changing to survive in this ever-changing world.


You're confusing the Old Order Amish with the Mennonites.


http://www.thirdway.com/menno/FAQ.asp?F_ID=3

Today some practices among the Amish include: untrimmed beards and hooks and eyes in place of buttons on outer garments of the men; horse and buggy transportation; horse-drawn implements for farming; plain and distinctive dress patterns; no electricity in homes.

However, most Mennonites today are not outwardly that different from any person you meet on the street. Mennonites believe in simple living, but express that simplicity in a spirit of stewardship and awareness of the needs of others rather than completely separating from society as the Amish continue to do.



http://www.800padutch.com/amish.shtml

Today there are over 25 different Amish, Mennonite, and Brethren church groups in Lancaster County. The more traditional groups are called 'old order'. They do not permit electricity or telephones in their homes. By restricting access to television, radio, and telephones, the Amish are better able to keep the modern world from intruding into their home life.

These traditional groups wear plain clothing styles, which has earned them the name "Plain People". It is the simple, peaceful lifestyle of these plain people that attracts such a curiosity today. Many wonder how these people can survive in their supposedly backward ways. Well, they're not only surviving - they're thriving. Since 1960, the Amish population in Lancaster County has almost tripled.

The Amish have a strong sense of community spirit, and often come to the aid of those in need. Their barn raisings are a good example. Neighbors freely give of their time and their skills to help one another.

With our society's current interest in restoring 'family values', much can be learned from studying the Amish way of life. Their devotion to family and community and their strong work ethic are good examples for our larger society.


The old order Amish are living proof that change in a society is not a necessity to survial and not always a desireable thing.

[Medusa]

You're confusing the Old Order Amish with the Mennonites.


http://www.thirdway.com/menno/FAQ.asp?F_ID=3

Today some practices among the Amish include: untrimmed beards and hooks and eyes in place of buttons on outer garments of the men; horse and buggy transportation; horse-drawn implements for farming; plain and distinctive dress patterns; no electricity in homes.

However, most Mennonites today are not outwardly that different from any person you meet on the street. Mennonites believe in simple living, but express that simplicity in a spirit of stewardship and awareness of the needs of others rather than completely separating from society as the Amish continue to do.



http://www.800padutch.com/amish.shtml

Today there are over 25 different Amish, Mennonite, and Brethren church groups in Lancaster County. The more traditional groups are called 'old order'. They do not permit electricity or telephones in their homes. By restricting access to television, radio, and telephones, the Amish are better able to keep the modern world from intruding into their home life.

These traditional groups wear plain clothing styles, which has earned them the name "Plain People". It is the simple, peaceful lifestyle of these plain people that attracts such a curiosity today. Many wonder how these people can survive in their supposedly backward ways. Well, they're not only surviving - they're thriving. Since 1960, the Amish population in Lancaster County has almost tripled.

The Amish have a strong sense of community spirit, and often come to the aid of those in need. Their barn raisings are a good example. Neighbors freely give of their time and their skills to help one another.

With our society's current interest in restoring 'family values', much can be learned from studying the Amish way of life. Their devotion to family and community and their strong work ethic are good examples for our larger society.


The old order Amish are living proof that change in a society is not a necessity to survial and not always a desireable thing.

The Amish that I know consider themselves to be "old order" but they drive, use cell phones, watch TV, etc. Mind you, they don't own cars, phones or TV's but they have no problem w/borrowing them. I asked one of my Amish friends about this and he said "It's a gray area". They are not Mennonites. They're Amish. :)

[pomtzu]

You're confusing the Old Order Amish with the Mennonites.


http://www.thirdway.com/menno/FAQ.asp?F_ID=3

Today some practices among the Amish include: untrimmed beards and hooks and eyes in place of buttons on outer garments of the men; horse and buggy transportation; horse-drawn implements for farming; plain and distinctive dress patterns; no electricity in homes.

However, most Mennonites today are not outwardly that different from any person you meet on the street. Mennonites believe in simple living, but express that simplicity in a spirit of stewardship and awareness of the needs of others rather than completely separating from society as the Amish continue to do.



http://www.800padutch.com/amish.shtml

Today there are over 25 different Amish, Mennonite, and Brethren church groups in Lancaster County. The more traditional groups are called 'old order'. They do not permit electricity or telephones in their homes. By restricting access to television, radio, and telephones, the Amish are better able to keep the modern world from intruding into their home life.

These traditional groups wear plain clothing styles, which has earned them the name "Plain People". It is the simple, peaceful lifestyle of these plain people that attracts such a curiosity today. Many wonder how these people can survive in their supposedly backward ways. Well, they're not only surviving - they're thriving. Since 1960, the Amish population in Lancaster County has almost tripled.

The Amish have a strong sense of community spirit, and often come to the aid of those in need. Their barn raisings are a good example. Neighbors freely give of their time and their skills to help one another.

With our society's current interest in restoring 'family values', much can be learned from studying the Amish way of life. Their devotion to family and community and their strong work ethic are good examples for our larger society.


The old order Amish are living proof that change in a society is not a necessity to survial and not always a desireable thing.

No - I know there is a difference.

I live just a few miles from several Amish communities, and as I said - SOME have taken on a few of the more modern ways.
Most of them here are farmers, but with land being at a premium, and them not being able to expand, many have gone into the furniture and construction business. An Amish family owned the construction business that build my garage a couple of years ago, and they used power tools and also used cell phones - however they were driven here by a non-Amish driver. I was talking to one of the gentlemen, and he said he just recently had electric run to his house.
We also have Mennonites in the area, but they drive, don't adhere to the old way of dress, and look pretty much like the ordinary guy on the street. The only different thing about the dress is that the women wear the little white caps on their head.

[Medusa]

No - I know there is a difference.

I live just a few miles from several Amish communities, and as I said - SOME have taken on a few of the more modern ways.
Most of them here are farmers, but with land being at a premium, and them not being able to expand, many have gone into the furniture and construction business. An Amish family owned the construction business that build my garage a couple of years ago, and they used power tools and also used cell phones - however they were driven here by a non-Amish driver. I was talking to one of the gentlemen, and he said he just recently had electric run to his house.
We also have Mennonites in the area, but they drive, don't adhere to the old way of dress, and look pretty much like the ordinary guy on the street. The only different thing about the dress is that the women wear the little white caps on their head.

The Amish that I know are quite well-to-do. They own/ed much of the surrounding land in their community and their homes are quite beautiful and modern w/the exception of electricity. Like your friends, they use power tools to build the furniture for their furniture business, they borrow cell phones, ride in cars and trucks and sometimes even borrow them and they use computers. Why they don't just give in and buy their own modern conveniences is beyond me; one of those 'gray areas', I guess. ;)

[Catlady711]

If an Amish is friends with a non-Amish then they are not traditional 'Old Order' because those do not commonly associate, nor befriend non Amish folks.

If, in fact, the true traditional Old Order Amish ever do change to that extent then they are doomed to the same deterioration of society and values that our society is and there will be no hope left for them.

Then they could enjoy the 'privileges' our society does by having crime, drugs, lack of community, rebellion, murder, indifference, violence; all in exchange for electricity, internet, tv, movies, cell phones and everyone doing their own 'thing'.

Barn raisings? Nope sorry, we just don't feel like helping you we have our own problems to deal with.

That would be a very sad day indeed.

Personally I think total separation from the modern stuff isn't a bad idea at all, and go back to a sense of community that no longer exists for the majority of Americans anymore.

There's a reason when I go camping I still use a tent, and deliberatly choose completely rustic campsites who's only ammenities are a hand pump for water and a covered outhouse. I like it that way and honestly hate to come back home to the 'convienences' and stress that comes with our 'modern' living.

[pomtzu]

I don't believe they make friends outside of their own society, but they do have to partner at times with non-Amish out of necessity, just as the ones that built my garage - they needed transportation for their construction supplies, and to get to and from here to do the actual construction.

When I bought this parcel of land almost 40 years ago - it was old farm land that had been divided in parcels for sale. Rudy Byler was the old Amish man who drove the well, and he actually used a divining rod to find the best spot. And I had always thought that was a bunch of bunk! :eek:

[Medusa]

Perhaps as a general rule they don't make friends outside of their community but the Amish that I know do. They hunt together w/the "English", as they call them, and some of them even stayed for a week's visit in my friend's home. The women don't socialize much but the men sure do. The very first time I met them, they took me to target practice. There I was in the woods w/my boyfriend and several Amish guys. I was the only woman. Afterwards, they came to my boyfriend's camper and spent the evening w/us.

[Twisterdog]

One word.....

Amish


My point exactly. They are a very small "society". And they exist, quite honestly, because of the grace of the modern American people. Traditionally, all throughout history, the more progressive soceities have swallowed the change-resistant ones. Native American, Mayan, untold African tribes ... the list is very long. Is it right? No. Is it human nature? Obviously.

Oh, and the Amish change - don't think for one minute that they are not reaping the benefits of this modern society. Did the Amish of a hundred years ago get a ride to Walmart in their neighbors car? Did they use the pay phone? Did they buy yards of fabric for their clothes? Did they make a small fortune selling puppies to pet stores? Did they market their furniture and hand crafts on the internet? Sounds like change to me ...

[smokey the elder]

I hate to pop everyone's utopian view of the Amish; they are suspected of running puppy mills.

Having said that, they as a whole seem like good folks, wanting to be left alone. I remember how uncomfortable they were with all the publicity surrounding that massacre in the school house.

[phesina]

They're not just suspected of running puppy mills: I think it's been thoroughly and clearly documented. Oprah even did a whole show about it!

[Cataholic]

They're not just suspected of running puppy mills: I think it's been thoroughly and clearly documented. Oprah even did a whole show about it!

I have/had heard that the Amish treat their animals horribly. I realize that not ALL Amish do this, but, nonetheless, with what I have read/heard, I do not buy Amish.

[shepgirl]

Weird that the converstion has turned to Amish people. I was just given a "beginner's bag" of some kind of bread that is started by them and they give people a starter bag so you can make the bread but you always have starter bags that you pass on and the next person passes on, and on, etc. Never heard of this before but the bread is delicious and I have a list of ingredients to add to the starter kit so I might just give it a try. I can't remember what the person called it now...I think it was the "Friendship Bread".
Anyone else ever hear of this?

[JenBKR]

Weird that the converstion has turned to Amish people. I was just given a "beginner's bag" of some kind of bread that is started by them and they give people a starter bag so you can make the bread but you always have starter bags that you pass on and the next person passes on, and on, etc. Never heard of this before but the bread is delicious and I have a list of ingredients to add to the starter kit so I might just give it a try. I can't remember what the person called it now...I think it was the "Friendship Bread".
Anyone else ever hear of this?


Oh yes I love friendship bread! Yummy :)

[Catlady711]

Yes it's good stuff. Only our circle of friends used to call it Herman (as if it was a person lol). So we had Herman bread. Haven't had it in years since no one has any starters anymore around here.

[blue]

Is that like sourdough bread? If it is use the starter and make pancakes with it.

[shepgirl]

I have no idea what it is really. I do know that is was quite good and that you end up with 4 started bags . You can freeze it but it's always pliable, doesn't freeze really hard and it's not supposed to go bad . I'm going to give a bag to one of my friends today to see what happens - she should end up with 4 bags also. It has yeast in it so I don't think it's sourdough, that doesn't have yeast does it?

[blue]

Friendship and Herman starters seem to be variations of sourdough starter. The only difference is the amount of sugar in the starter recipes.

[Twisterdog]

That type of bread stems from the days before you could buy dry yeast in packages. If you didn't have your own yeast culture growing at all times, you didn't have bread. Women kept a "starter" of yeast growing all week, and usually once or twice a week they baked bread, being sure to set another starter back. My grandma called it "everlasting yeast" and she did it from the day she was married in 1924 until the day she died, a few years ago. My mom has the little crock that she kept her yeast starter in.