21 gun salute question

[caseysmom]

Since its gun related I put it here.

My daughter is doing a heritage project and we got to talking about the war her grandfather fought in and I was telling her about the 21 gun salute that soldiers get when they die.

I was telling her the story of a friends father who died and one of the older gentlemen doing the 21 gun salutes had the shakes so bad, I later found out they use blanks. So my question is this, the flag we got from my dad is folded up with the bullet shells from the 21 gun salute. How does that work? Do blanks have shells?

Its a stupid question but my daughter wanted to know.

[blue]

Yes blanks have shells, just no projectiles. Link, (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2022/2080061291_4960ed37fa_o.jpg) notice the neck of the cartrage is pinched off and there is no bullit present.

My many respects to your father.

[caseysmom]

Okay thanks, I thought it was something like that but I had a hard time explaining it. I still have my dad's uniform from the army, its pretty cool my daughter may take it to class.

[ramanth]

My grandfather also got a 21 gun salute. I meant to keep one of the shells, but it didn't cross my mind at the time. My sister played Taps at the funeral. She kept it together so well, I was so proud of her.

[blue]

Ive seen the 21 Gun Salute before but never looked into its history, found here (http://www.history.army.mil/faq/salute.htm).


What is the origin of the 21-gun salute?

The use of gun salutes for military occasions is traced to early warriors who demonstrated their peaceful intentions by placing their weapons in a position that rendered them ineffective. Apparently this custom was universal, with the specific act varying with time and place, depending on the weapons being used. A North African tribe, for example, trailed the points of their spears on the ground to indicate that they did not mean to be hostile.

The tradition of rendering a salute by cannon originated in the 14th century as firearms and cannons came into use. Since these early devices contained only one projectile, discharging them once rendered them ineffective. Originally warships fired seven-gun salutes--the number seven probably selected because of its astrological and Biblical significance. Seven planets had been identified and the phases of the moon changed every seven days. The Bible states that God rested on the seventh day after Creation, that every seventh year was sabbatical and that the seven times seventh year ushered in the Jubilee year.

Land batteries, having a greater supply of gunpowder, were able to fire three guns for every shot fired afloat, hence the salute by shore batteries was 21 guns. The multiple of three probably was chosen because of the mystical significance of the number three in many ancient civilizations. Early gunpowder, composed mainly of sodium nitrate, spoiled easily at sea, but could be kept cooler and drier in land magazines. When potassium nitrate improved the quality of gunpowder, ships at sea adopted the salute of 21 guns.

The 21-gun salute became the highest honor a nation rendered. Varying customs among the maritime powers led to confusion in saluting and return of salutes. Great Britain, the world's preeminent seapower in the 18th and 19th centuries, compelled weaker nations to salute first, and for a time monarchies received more guns than did republics. Eventually, by agreement, the international salute was established at 21 guns, although the United States did not agree on this procedure until August 1875.

The gun salute system of the United States has changed considerably over the years. In 1810, the "national salute" was defined by the War Department as equal to the number of states in the Union--at that time 17. This salute was fired by all U.S. military installations at 1:00 p.m. (later at noon) on Independence Day. The President also received a salute equal to the number of states whenever he visited a military installation.

In 1842, the Presidential salute was formally established at 21 guns. In 1890, regulations designated the "national salute" as 21 guns and redesignated the traditional Independence Day salute, the "Salute to the Union," equal to the number of states. Fifty guns are also fired on all military installations equipped to do so at the close of the day of the funeral of a President, ex-President, or President-elect.

Today the national salute of 21 guns is fired in honor of a national flag, the sovereign or chief of state of a foreign nation, a member of a reigning royal family, and the President, ex-President and President-elect of the United States. It is also fired at noon of the day of the funeral of a President, ex-President, or President-elect.

Gun salutes are also rendered to other military and civilian leaders of this and other nations. The number of guns is based on their protocol rank. These salutes are always in odd numbers.

Source: Headquarters, Military District of Washington, FACT SHEET: GUN SALUTES, May 1969.

[caseysmom]

Thanks Blue he was a good man. Unfortunately he got alzheimers the last years of his life.

He was just a soldier as far as.I know he had no ranking I wish I had paid more attentiion to the stories. He fought in the Korean war.

[blue]

Is your father at Arlington?

Ive been there before and plan to go back to actually visit graves and pay my respects to individuals rather then just visiting the memorials.

[caseysmom]

No, him and my Mom purchased a crypt here in town in the section reserved for the military, its called the court of honor. My grandparents and some aunts and uncles are there too and I am trying to get my brothers ashes added to the crypt, just waiting since it costs thousands to do that.

[caseysmom]

Here's Dad...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/spumoni/dad.jpg

That uniform is in my closet.

[blue]

Thank you for sharing the pic of your father. Alzheimers is hard on the patient and even harder on the family.

Thank you again for sharing.

[Freedom]

When my uncle died, my aunt arranged for the salute; but it was 3., not 21. I didn't know anyone other than heads of state could get the full 21.

[caseysmom]

When my uncle died, my aunt arranged for the salute; but it was 3., not 21. I didn't know anyone other than heads of state could get the full 21.

Maybe I have it wrong, that is what I thought it was called, they showed up and fired guns, I think there were 7 of them and they fired 3 times? They folded up the flag after and presented it to my mom. Same with my friends Dad. I have a friend who has 3 boys in the marines, her husband, an ex military guy volunteers with the men who shoot the guns at funerals, I can ask her if it is not referred to as that.

edit to add this link:

http://www.flagcases.net/Military-Burials-information.php

[Cinder & Smoke]

I think there were 7 of them and they fired 3 times?

They folded up the flag after and presented it to my mom.

Here are some interesting facts from >>>
http://militarysalute.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=protocol&action=display&thread=625

PRACTICE OF FIRING THREE RIFLE VOLLEYS OVER THE GRAVE

This practice originated in the old custom of halting the fighting to remove the dead from the battlefield.
Once each army had cleared its dead, it would fire three volleys to indicate
that the dead had been cared for and that they were ready to go back to the fight.
The fact that the firing party consists of seven riflemen,
firing three volleys of seven rounds each, does not constitute a 21-gun salute.

Contrary to what many people think, including media personnel,
a 21-gun salute and a rifle squad salute are NOT the same thing.

A 21-gun salute is rendered by firing cannons.
It is only used in the specific circumstances outlined in the previous post.

In the case of a funeral with Military Honors for either active-duty personnel or veterans,
a rifle squad salute is fired by 7 members of the Honor Guard (firing three rounds each).
This is NOT a 21-gun salute.

The only person eligible for a 21-gun salute at a funeral with Military Honors
is the current President of the United States or a former President of the United States.
The practice recognizes the deceased's status as the current or former
Commander-In-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States of America.

Ceremonial 21-Gun Salute
Today, the national salute of 21 guns is fired in honor of a national flag,
the sovereign or chief of state of a foreign nation,
a member of a reigning royal family, and
the President, ex-President, and President-elect of the United States.
It is also fired at noon of the day of the funeral of a President,
ex-President, or President-elect, on Washington's Birthday, Presidents Day,
and the Fourth of July.
On Memorial Day, a salute of 21 guns is fired at noon
while the flag is flown at half mast.

The big difference between a Funeral 21-Gun Salute and a Ceremonial
21-Gun Salute
is the type of weapon used to fire the salute.

A Funeral salute is rendered by a Squad of 7 Riflemen firing shoulder-held rifles or carbines;
A Ceremonial Salute is rendered by a wheeled or permanently mounted BIG Gun or Cannon,
as found at a Fort or aboard a Navy ship, or on a battlefield artelliary emplacement.




When my uncle died, my aunt arranged for the salute; but it was 3., not 21.

I wasn't there, but usually a Funeral Salute is rendered by a Squad of 7 Riflemen,
each one firing simultaneously a total of 3 Volleys ... Thereby firing "21 Guns".
Many times, especially when the Squad has rendered many salutes, all 7 are able
to fire in exact syncronization - sounding like a single shot which is repeated 3 times.

[Freedom]

Could be, Phred. I was surprised how LOUD it was, so perhaps it was seven of them firing.

This has been really interesting, thanks for starting this thread, caseysmom!