Why did you vote for Obama or not...?

[carole]

Now i have only started this thread because I want to understand a little about American politics,and of course the reasons you voted for Mr Obama, or why you did not, I thought it would be a very interesting topic, although i know it can be a touchy one too,so please if you do not wish to disclose your reasons, then don't respond.

I imagine the American public want the same things we do in our country,a better place to live, free of crime, war,poverty,uemployment, etc etc.

What were the main issues you were concerned with? and what Policy's did either party offer you? thanks for listening.

[cassiesmom]

I voted for McCain. Obama became one of our Senators 3 1/2, almost 4 years ago. He's spent the past year and a half not being a Senator but running for President. I voted for McCain because I didn't get the sense that Obama has the experience a President needs. I'm sure he'll have a lot of advisers, though. He's definitely got a lot of personality.

I'd like to see the war in Iraq end quickly and with as little loss of life as possible. I'd like access to health care to be available nationwide. And if there can be an end to gangs and drugs.

[sirrahbed]

I voted for McCain/Palin because I think that collectively they had much more experience and made a a well rounded team. I like the fact that they are pro-life and pro-traditional marriage which is important to me. I also feel that staying the course with our war on terrorism is #1 priority. So, I am disappointed and sad at the results but the election I believe was fair and I am glad it is over. I am always proud of America - through good times and bad and through times of change and times of staying the course. Economics are not my biggest priority because I believe we will survive the depression/recession no matter who was elected. Then again - my rent is paid and we are not in immediate danger of losing our home or paycheck and we can pay our bills. I pray that God will continue to bless us as a nation with prosperity and freedom.

[carole]

Thank you both for answering so honestly, i have found it interesting reading, cheers.:)

[Alysser]

I'm only 16, can't legally vote yet. But I wouldn't have voted for McCain or Sarah Palin because frankly I didn't see eye to eye with them on much issues surrounding the US right now. I don't agree with their veiws on Abortion for example. Oh, and please people, because I don't agree with making Abortion illegal don't flame me. I have my reasons and it's my opinion.

[BitsyNaceyDog]

There are a lot of reasons I voted for him. Overall I just like the way he thinks and I agree with him on more issues than I agree with McCain on. I also like the way he speaks and presents himself, I think he'll represent our country well, something we've certainly been lacking these past 8 years. I don't like the way McCain speaks to the public (with the exception of last night's speech, he spoke differently last night).

Technology played a big part of why I voted for Obama too. Technology and the internet are a huge part of how the world works today and I don't feel that McCain "gets it".

Education is another HUGE reason I voted for Obama. He has really shown his passion and dedication to education. Global warming and environmental issues also were part of my reason why I voted for Obama.

I don't want this to start anything, but I do want to share my feelings on the subject of abortion since that is also a reason I voted for Obama and I want to explain why. I think we can probably all agree that in a perfect world abortion wouldn't be an issue. This however isn't a perfect world and sadly abortion is an issue. I don't feel that overturning Roe vs. Wade will do much to stop abortions. It may keep some women from getting an abortion, but I believe a lot of women will still have the abortions just in an illigal, unsafe manor. I feel that the way to truly reduce the abortion rate is through education. Teaching and preaching "abstinence only" the way Palin wants to teach obviously doesn't work, if it did she wouldn't have a pregnant teenager. I believe that kids need to be better educated about sex and birth control to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Both Obama and McCain want to promote adoption and I think that's very important also. Better support for single mothers is also very important.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Well, to be honest, before the nominees were decided I supported Hilary more than Obama. But I have been impressed with his campaign since then, and I always vote a straight democratic ticket, so I would have voted for the democratic nominee no matter who won the primaries.

However, I do think that Obama has a lot of good leadership qualities and I agree on many issues that he has discussed during his campaign (however, presidents do not actually pass bills- that is congress- they simply sign them into law, or veto them, if it goes through congress). However, with a largely democratic senate and a good president, I am hopeful that we can get some real change that I think our country needs. I am particularly hoping to see some changes to health care and education.

I honestly felt that John McCain gave his most gracious and impressive speech throughout his whole campaign last night when he acknowledged Obama's victory. During the debates he really did not have much to say, and simply went on the offensive, which wasn't impressive to me (not to mention he was really unprofessional with his eye-rolling and scoffing). Also, I would honestly be terrified to have Palin as a VP when McCain is so old and not in good health. She apparently intended to run congress...any 5th grader could tell you that we have 3 branches of government for a reason!

Well, sorry that's so long-winded. I'm actually very excited to see Obama elected as our next president and I can't wait to see him in office.

[ramanth]

I don't want this to start anything, but I do want to share my feelings on the subject of abortion since that is also a reason I voted for Obama and I want to explain why. I think we can probably all agree that in a perfect world abortion wouldn't be an issue. This however isn't a perfect world and sadly abortion is an issue. I don't feel that overturning Roe vs. Wade will do much to stop abortions. It may keep some women from getting an abortion, but I believe a lot of women will still have the abortions just in an illigal, unsafe manor. I feel that the way to truly reduce the abortion rate is through education. Teaching and preaching "abstinence only" the way Palin wants to teach obviously doesn't work, if it did she wouldn't have a pregnant teenager. I believe that kids need to be better educated about sex and birth control to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

Kari, you stated it more eleoquently than I ever could. :)

I'm Pro Choice, Pro Stem Cell Research, Pro Gay Rights, ect.... so it's no surprise I voted for Obama.

[K9karen]

It's Obama for me. He has a lot of work ahead of him. You can't please all the people all of the time, and I'll be the first to complain, but we needed a change. Obama is a class act, dignified, intelligent, compassionate. He's a born leader. I personally think this was his destiny.

McCain's speech was great. I wish him well. Someone had to win.

[Gracefulsarah]

I didn't vote for him simply because I didn't agree with the things he's stood for and voted for or against whilst in the senate. He's waaay too liberal for me personally. McCain wasn't my first choice, (and he's not the one I voted for in the primarys [sp?]) but he was the lesser of the two evils in my opinion. I love Palin though. :D

[.sarah]

I'm Pro Choice, Pro Stem Cell Research, Pro Gay Rights, ect.... so it's no surprise I voted for Obama.I am too, but I voted for McCain. Although, when I say I'm Pro Choice - I am only pro-choice in very certain and extreme circumstances (when a girl has been raped for example). I am never pro-abortion, however..

I voted for McCain because I felt he had a better economic plan, and I agreed with his views on the War in Iraq. These two issues are much more important to me at the moment. I am so "middle of the road" though (not strictly republican or democrat) that it was more of me choosing what was more important for me and strategizing what I would prefer to see done at the moment and how. Then, as time went on, things that were coming out about Obama were starting to worry me. I was undecided until a few weeks after the choices for Vice President were announced.

I agree with the poster above that says Obama is very liberal. Not that this is a bad thing, but I am conservative still in some respect and generally if I were to choose a side I probably lean a little bit closer to the right than left. I like Obama, as a person (can't say the same for Biden), but I think McCain would be more fitting as a president (oh well).

There were a lot of little issues as well, like things from Obama's past and things he said along the way in the campaign that quite frankly bothered me and made me very wary of him to be in the position of running this country. I hope and pray that he will prove me wrong. I hope that he is exactly what this country needs. I hope the economy gets back in order. I hope he keeps our troops and our country safe.

[Twisterdog]

I voted for Obama.

To me, every election is about "picking the lesser of two evils." I don't agree with everything Obama says or supports or wants, but I agreed with more of it than I did with McCain's views.

I feel we need to get out of Iraq. I think we have enough problems at home that need our attention. Not that I don't feel for the people in the Middle East, but I feel for our citizens' problems and I think the billions upon billions of dollars we spend over there would be better served healing our own domestic economic, educational, health care, social security, etc. woes. We need to clean our own house before we go marching around telling other countries how dirty theirs are.

I am pro-choice. I did not say I am pro-abortion. I simply do not believe it is up to others' to dictate that choice for someone else. If abortion is a mortal sin, then God will take care of it Himself. He doesn't need help from the US goverment.

I feel Obama is looking more toward the future, not toward the past and the "way we've always done things around here." The future of this country, and the world, lies in technology, economics, and peace. The future lies in young, optimistic people of all races and nationalities working together. The John Wayne, conquer by force and might, come in the saloon doors with six-shooters blazing philosphy is an outdated and dangerous view.

[Grace]

I'm Pro Choice, Pro Stem Cell Research, Pro Gay Rights, ect.... so it's no surprise I voted for Obama.

What she said! And add on the Supreme Court.

[AllAmericanPUP]

I voted for Obama because i'm a liberal and i'm pro choice and I do not agree with conservative views.

[Cataholic]

I voted for Obama.

To me, every election is about "picking the lesser of two evils." I don't agree with everything Obama says or supports or wants, but I agreed with more of it than I did with McCain's views.

I feel we need to get out of Iraq. I think we have enough problems at home that need our attention. Not that I don't feel for the people in the Middle East, but I feel for our citizens' problems and I think the billions upon billions of dollars we spend over there would be better served healing our own domestic economic, educational, health care, social security, etc. woes. We need to clean our own house before we go marching around telling other countries how dirty theirs are.

I am pro-choice. I did not say I am pro-abortion. I simply do not believe it is up to others' to dictate that choice for someone else. If abortion is a mortal sin, then God will take care of it Himself. He doesn't need help from the US goverment.

I feel Obama is looking more toward the future, not toward the past and the "way we've always done things around here." The future of this country, and the world, lies in technology, economics, and peace. The future lies in young, optimistic people of all races and nationalities working together. The John Wayne, conquer by force and might, come in the saloon doors with six-shooters blazing philosphy is an outdated and dangerous view.

Here! Here!

[momoffuzzyfaces]

I voted for Obama because he brought a sense of hope and excitement I haven't seen in this country since President Kennedy. Also, because he seems to take his time and think things through when making decisions. We need someone who thinks before he acts in office.

I also remember the times when President Regan fell asleep during meetings. We don't need another president asleep at the wheel!

[M&M's Mommy]

I voted for McCain/Palin.

I didn't vote for Obama because the fact that the media was so obviously biased in favor of him, that he seemed to be too overtly condifent at times (to the point that he was on the verge of ignorant!), and his stance on the abortion issue, specially his role killing legislation to protect born-alive survivors of abortions goes against everything that I believe in. All in all, he's too liberal for my liking!

Now that he's our elected president, he'll have my respect as such & lots and lots of prayers. I pray that God will guide him throughout his service to America, and open his eyes and heart to the sacredness of all lives, specially whose that have no voices, and can't protect themselves.

His victory means to me that race is no longer an issue in America (or at least it appeared that way). As for what he can really to this great nation, I guess only time will tell. I'll just have to wait and see :)

[catland]

I voted for Obama and it was a wonderful feeling to actually want someone to win vs. just picking the lesser of 2 evils.

He is inspirational.

He has to be an amazing strategist - to come from nowhere and first beat Clinton and then McCain.

I believe he will choose good people to be his advisors and won't pick a bunch of yes-men( and women) or fall back on favoritism or cronyism when he selects his cabinet.


McCain's choice of Palin finally did it for me. I always thought her selection was a gimick - she was picked because of her chromosones and nothing else. The thought of someone who doesn't even know that Africa is a continent and not a country being our president makes me shudder.

Finally, I feel like as a country, we've grown up. We selected a 21st century president. YAY!!!

[smokey the elder]

The fact that he picked Biden, one of his biggest gadflies, to be his VP says that he's not afraid to learn. I voted for him because I think he has a better shot at bipartisanship, and I thought he had enormous presence, standing up to all the negative campaigning and not getting into too much mud wrestling.

[carole]

Thank you all for your most welcome replies, i have found it to be very interesting reading, i did start this thread for purely selfish reasons,to become more familiar with the American political system,and what the American people want? I have found it very informative.

As an outsider looking in, I have to say I personally found Mr Obama had a lot of charisma,he really appealed to me,he certainly would have been my choice as well, I like very much that he is young, and liberal, and from reading your posts I like what he is standing for.

I have to say i found Palin very scatty, and not at all somebody i would want for my vice president, or president should Mccain have to step down, maybe that was his downfall, having Palin.

Now tell me, if you usually voted either republican or Democrat, did you change your vote this year because you liked Obama better, or would you stick with either party because you are staunch republican or Democrat.?

We have our elections tomorrow, it is picked we will have a new government, I for one will not be happy about that, I will be very reluctant to welcome Mr John Keys as our new Prime Minister, I do think the elections in the USA will have an influence on voting here, they will see it as Time for a Change here too I think.,worse luck,still one just has to accept it don't we?

Thanks again, looking forward to more of your posts.

[Alysser]

The fact that he picked Biden, one of his biggest gadflies, to be his VP says that he's not afraid to learn. I voted for him because I think he has a better shot at bipartisanship, and I thought he had enormous presence, standing up to all the negative campaigning and not getting into too much mud wrestling.

Agreed, what impressed me was when it came out Sarah Palin's 17 year old daughter was pregnant and He simply said "our children should not be brought into this election" or something like that. He could have used that so much against them but was very mature about it.

[M&M's Mommy]

Nope. I am a republican by heart. Though I don't agree with president Bush on certain issues, the Republican party and what it stands for hasn't disappointed me.

[carole]

I am much the same, I am loyal to my party to the end, i even voted last year for the candiate in my area, who i have met and dislike, as i wanted my party to be the government and it was, thank goodness she has left parliament and we have a new candidate that i like very much, it is a hard thing to do, to vote for someone you don't like a whole lot,but i am LABOUR party all the way.:)

One cannot possible agree with everything our party stands for, this government has done a few things i am not happy about, but in general it has done some great things, introducing working for families tax credits, which without our life would be bordering on the poverty line,anti-smacking laws,no smoking laws, just to name a few that i have been all for.,and they also work with the Green party, which is simply self explanatory, it stands for keeping the environment clean and green amongst other things.

[Pam]

and his stance on the abortion issue, specially his role killing legislation to protect born-alive survivors of abortions goes against everything that I believe in

I agree with you there. Partial birth abortion is appalling to me and failing to provide medical care to the survivor of a botched abortion is criminal to me. I was leery of his liberal agenda as a whole although I do think that some of his ideas are good and his youth is on his side. He made a wise choice with Joe Biden and I liked that about him.

I didn't like McCain either but I do approve of his pro-life position. I don't agree with many of his policies and I think he shot himself in the foot by his selection of Sarah Palin as his running mate. To be quite honest, if he had been elected I would have worried on a daily basis about his health for fear that she would become president.

As I sat and watched the returns I have to say that I really was emotionless. Neither candidate inspired me or gave me a feeling of confidence so I didn't care how the election turned out. Now that Obama is our President Elect he deserves our support. I hope that God will continue to Bless America.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Since I began voting at 18, this is the first time I felt GOOD about my choice. I have voted for Republicans, Democrats and once -- an Independent. But never a positive vote. Just...the lesser of two evils...or anyone who wasn't the other guy. There have been times I decided once I was in the voting booth.

This time I was thrilled to vote. I voted for Obama because I believe he can put the nightmare of the last eight years behind us. He can restore the reputation of the US as a country that leads by example not by force.

I believe he understands the health care crisis -- McCain has been at the federal government trough his entire life. Never drawn a paycheck that I didn't help pay for. He is -- or at least his wife is -- extremely wealthy. I do not believe he can understand the issues that ordinary wage earning people face.

I voted for Obama because he has the qualities of a leader -- able to inspire, able to motivate, able to get people working toward a common goal.

[Marigold2]

Agree 100%.
My beliefs and morals are mine and I would never impose them on another nor wish theirs on mine.
I voted for Obama because i'm a liberal and i'm pro choice and I do not agree with conservative views.

[Cookiebaker]

I agree with you there. Partial birth abortion is appalling to me and failing to provide medical care to the survivor of a botched abortion is criminal to me. I was leery of his liberal agenda as a whole although I do think that some of his ideas are good and his youth is on his side. He made a wise choice with Joe Biden and I liked that about him.

I didn't like McCain either but I do approve of his pro-life position. I don't agree with many of his policies and I think he shot himself in the foot by his selection of Sarah Palin as his running mate. To be quite honest, if he had been elected I would have worried on a daily basis about his health for fear that she would become president.

As I sat and watched the returns I have to say that I really was emotionless. Neither candidate inspired me or gave me a feeling of confidence so I didn't care how the election turned out. Now that Obama is our President Elect he deserves our support. I hope that God will continue to Bless America.

Pam, I could not have said it any better! :)

[Twisterdog]

To answer your second question ...

I am a registered independent. That having been said, I have very rarely ever actually voted for an independent candidate. I registered as an independent because I do not believe in the party system. I think it is an overly-simplified attempt to categorize a very complicated system.

I believe in some things that are traditionally "republican", and I believe in some things that are traditionally "democratic". No person, especially one of our leaders, should be so constrained by a particular party's view that he or she is afraid to step outside of the box.

I believe we should decide based on the person running - their views, beliefs, intelligence, etc., not which party they belong to. I think we have had good republican leaders and good democratic leaders, as well as bad leaders of both parties.

I believe in actually thinking, not just filling in the circle next to the party one has always chosen.

[sirrahbed]

I am conservative in my views but would vote for any party if I felt that is where my conscience was leading me. I do not support any particular party, though I suppose I am currently a republican. Christian first. American a close second. Maybe even a tie.

[carole]

Thank you all for your honesty and views.:)

[buckner]

McCain's choice of Palin finally did it for me. I always thought her selection was a gimick - she was picked because of her chromosones and nothing else. The thought of someone who doesn't even know that Africa is a continent and not a country being our president makes me shudder.
Obama also stated there is 57 states in America. Frankly, if we're going on geographical knowledge, I'd rather my president know how many states we have rather than naming the continents.

I voted for McCain/Palin. I don't like Obama, I don't like the things he says or the things he stands for, and the fact that he is in office scares the life out of me. I don't know what America was thinking. It really disappoints me that Obama is our president. My dad said it best when he described Obama as an empty suit. I don't think he'll do anything good for the country, or the people. In fact, I think he'll make a lot of things worse. Taxes? I highly believe that taxes will increase. Education? We'll see how much good he's doing for the children in special education.
My vote did NOT go for Obama/Biden.

[carole]

Hmm this is indeed very interesting reading for me, thanks for your posts.

[sumbirdy]

Obama also stated there is 57 states in America. Frankly, if we're going on geographical knowledge, I'd rather my president know how many states we have rather than naming the continents.

I voted for McCain/Palin. I don't like Obama, I don't like the things he says or the things he stands for, and the fact that he is in office scares the life out of me. I don't know what America was thinking. It really disappoints me that Obama is our president. My dad said it best when he described Obama as an empty suit. I don't think he'll do anything good for the country, or the people. In fact, I think he'll make a lot of things worse. Taxes? I highly believe that taxes will increase. Education? We'll see how much good he's doing for the children in special education.
My vote did NOT go for Obama/Biden.

Agree 100%

One of the things that I really don't like about Obama is his view of abortions. Not exactly the abortion itself (although I don't agree with abortion, who are we to say who lives or dies?) but the fact that if there ends up being a botched abortion, and the child is born alive, they should recieve no medical care. He's basically saying they don't matter. These are little babies, little Americans, and our PRESIDENT doesn't even care about them. Babies shouldn't be disposable. "Oh you got pregnant and don't want it? Go get rid of it!" It's sickening to me. I realize that a lot of people think abortions are up to the mother, it's their choice, but to me the idea of abortion is like someone saying they acquired a dog but found out they didn't want it, so they dropped it off on the side of the road, decided to get rid of it. I'm sure a lot of people here would protest to that, but hey, it's their choice right?

Needless to say, I voted for McCain/Palin

[kt_luvs_kitties]

I did not vote for Obama. I did not trust him. believe in what he does, and I think that the fact that he spent 20 YEARS with someone with less than desirable messages (preacher), did not bode well in my eyes.

I also DO NOT agree with partial birth abortion.

So that is some of the reasons why I did NOT vote for him.


Now that he is going to be our President, I will respect that. Like it or not.

[Pam]

Agree 100%

One of the things that I really don't like about Obama is his view of abortions. Not exactly the abortion itself (although I don't agree with abortion, who are we to say who lives or dies?) but the fact that if there ends up being a botched abortion, and the child is born alive, they should recieve no medical care. He's basically saying they don't matter. These are little babies, little Americans, and our PRESIDENT doesn't even care about them. Babies shouldn't be disposable. "Oh you got pregnant and don't want it? Go get rid of it!" It's sickening to me. I realize that a lot of people think abortions are up to the mother, it's their choice, but to me the idea of abortion is like someone saying they acquired a dog but found out they didn't want it, so they dropped it off on the side of the road, decided to get rid of it. I'm sure a lot of people here would protest to that, but hey, it's their choice right?



You hit the nail on the head. I still stand in amazement that this barbaric practice goes on in a civilied nation. Two things always come to mind when abortion comes up and I know we have discussed abortion here at PT ad nauseum but here they are:

1) The original Hippocratic oath state:
Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

2)Secondly, now since the murder of Lacy Peterson we now have legislation that states that the murder of a pregnant woman counts as a double homicide. However, if your mother isn't murdered, but merely chooses to end your life, little one, you are doomed and it is OK.

How in the world can these two things be reconciled? I like the example that you give, Sumbirdy, to that of a dog. No one here would leave a puppy by the side of the road who had just been born and was found in distress. It would be put in a car and whisked off to a vet. But........ it's OK to do that to a human baby. I believe people in this country have been severely duped to accept this lie of choice. There is no choice for the child. The practice is immoral and barbaric.

Excuse me for this rant but this whole subject sickens me. May God forgive us.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

These are little babies, little Americans, and our PRESIDENT doesn't even care about them. Babies shouldn't be disposable. "Oh you got pregnant and don't want it? Go get rid of it!" It's sickening to me.
No one likes the idea of killing babies, but I sure bet the Republican party loves the fact that some people think of Obama as a "baby killer." Many bills about these controversial issues are introduced to congress to play to party politics. For example, this bill about partial birth abortion probably had some other agenda, and it had no real hope of passing. However, it did allow people to come back later and make claims against Obama that are sure to rouse some powerful emotion.

Just something to think about....we have had a republican president for the last 8 years, who has continuously said he is against abortion. As far as I know, he hasn't done anything about it whatsoever. I think both sides present a lot of rhetoric, but really, presidents don't have the power to simply ban abortion at the snap of their fingers. They just use moral issues as a way to sway votes, but ultimately do nothing about them.

[Lady's Human]

The particular bill (withholding aid to a baby who survives abortion) was introduced and (IIRC) passed the Illinois State Legislature as a stand alone measure.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I still stand in amazement that this barbaric practice goes on in a civilied nation.

Interesting that many feel this way about the death penalty -- especially since so many on death row have been found NOT to be guilty of the crime for which they were convicted.

[Pam]

Interesting that many feel this way about the death penalty -- especially since so many on death row have been found NOT to be guilty of the crime for which they were convicted.

What crimes have innocent babies committed? Theirs are the most innocent of all lives.

Our society seems to find itself in contradiction, as in the two areas I pointed out, and God had quite a bit to say about those who harm "the least of these." Man has woven a web and caught himself in it.

Sara, the death penalty is not what is being discussed here although you always seem to feel ready to bring that up. Please stick to the topic. As I said before, this has been discussed here ad nauseum and so there will be no more posts from my end.

[Lady's Human]

Sara? Stick to the topic?

:D

[Edwina's Secretary]

Sara, the death penalty is not what is being discussed here although you always seem to feel ready to bring that up. Please stick to the topic. As I said before, this has been discussed here ad nauseum and so there will be no more posts from my end.

Sorry Pam. Nor was the topic abortion. I thought the topic was why did you or did you not vote for Obama.

You then turned the discussion to partial birth abortion.

And turned what had been a pleasant thread into another diatribe for anti-abortionist.

Are you (and LH) the only ones allowed to expand the subject?

[Lady's Human]

Sara, neither Pam nor myself brought abortion into the discussion, that was done many posts ago.

I saw no diatribe, only a discussion.

[K9soul]

I have commented little on political issues though I watch them very closely. I was sad to see this thread turn from a civil and honest discussion back into spatting and personal fights. I suppose it's to be expected, once a remark was made that another considered incorrect or inflammatory. I am glad it managed to stay out of the doghouse and stay respectful as long as it did.

That said, back when all of this was really raging over the net before Obama was elected, I wished to find out about the issue from a non-biased source that laid it all out. You can take from it what you will. You can read it and still feel Obama has a hidden agenda or is a liar. Or you can read it and understand why he says has voted the way he has on the issue.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html

I would like to quote this paragraph though:


Whether opposing "born alive" legislation is the same as supporting "infanticide," however, is entirely a matter of interpretation. That could be true only for those, such as Obama's 2004 Republican opponent, Alan Keyes, who believe a fetus that doctors give no chance of surviving is an "infant." It is worth noting that Illinois law already provided that physicians must protect the life of a fetus when there is "a reasonable likelihood of sustained survival of the fetus outside the womb, with or without artificial support."

[carole]

I was the one who started this thread, to learn more about American politics and what Americans want, I really don't want anyone to become offended or upset, we all have our opinions and views, some of us here are not religious and have different views about abortion,some of us are religious,and also share different views,some of our views have nothing to do with religion, it is just our view,no-one has the right to push their views on someone else,we all have to respect that and accept it.

The topic is not abortion, it is about why you voted for obama or not, of course this has come into it, because it is one of the reasons why some of you chose not to elect him,that is fine, but please don't turn this thread into for and against abortion,everyone is entitled to their opinions,and it is a very controversial and emotive subject which has been hashed our here on PT many times before.

I really don't want the thread to have to be deleted either by me or Karen, and i can see that ahead, I really am finding it so interesting and informative.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Sara, neither Pam nor myself brought abortion into the discussion, that was done many posts ago.

I saw no diatribe, only a discussion.

Why no outcry about sticking to the topic when abortion was brought in? Why only when the death sentence was?

And why am I not allowed to join in the discussion? Oh that's right. Because I have a different opinion...:D

[Lady's Human]

Out of respect for the OP, I shall remove myself from the discussion.

[K9soul]

Carole, I hope if it continues to spiral out of hand it will be locked rather than deleted. A lot of the replies were very informative and respectful.

[carole]

And you are entitled to your opinion 100 per cent.

Now back to the original topic, did Obama promise you things that really appealed to you? is he going to take the troops home? are their tax cuts ahead? just what has he promised to deliver the American people, that is what i would like to know? thanks.

Hey i am certain we can continue on with this discussion, i hope so , as i am learning a lot,never too old to learn.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Carole - I don't put much stock in promises. From any politician. Things change, unexpected things happen (such as 9/11). My vote was based on leadership, philosophy, values.

The president of the US cannot change the constitution, outlaw abortion or the death penalty, cannot raise taxes.

Much of his (or some day her :D) power comes from the ability to lead, to influence, to inspire.

[carole]

Thank you.:)

[lizbud]

Sorry Pam. Nor was the topic abortion. I thought the topic was why did you or did you not vote for Obama.

You then turned the discussion to partial birth abortion.

And turned what had been a pleasant thread into another diatribe for anti-abortionist.

Are you (and LH) the only ones allowed to expand the subject?


That's the way I've been reading this too. This thread has long ago
widened to off topic comments.:rolleyes:

Any hoo, speaking of American Politics, what the heck is going on in Missouri?
They still having finished vote counting in that state.:eek:

[momoffuzzyfaces]

One thing for sure, he'd really have to work hard at it to get us in a bigger mess than we are in right now! :love:

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Any hoo, speaking of American Politics, what the heck is going on in Missouri?
They still having finished vote counting in that state.:eek:

I wonder if they bought Florida's old voting machines? :D

[Karen]

I wonder if they bought Florida's old voting machines? :D

Or they are paying someone by the hour to do the counting ... and in this economy, they've decide to stretch it out as long as plausible!

[Bonny]

We had a special voting machine brought in at the cost of $54,000.00 for blind people to use. No one used it! :rolleyes: Talk about tax payers money being wasted?

I had a hard time picking the right person. My state was first to pick Obama. I saw him up close at the Iowa State Fair with body guards close at hand protecting him & tv cameras all over the place when we were eating our dinner at the pork producers tent. I don't know how he & his family could enjoy a meal with all the hype.

I was called a racist & predjudce when I mentioned I was not ready for a black president when I got mixed in with a group of liberals on here on another thread. I felt Obama was playing the race card. I wish him the best as president & hope he can fulfill his promises just as I had hoped my pick McCain/& my dear Sara Palin would of been obligated to do also. I did vote a split ticket though. I am an independent voter & weigh the issues, look at religion & morals & try to be fair even when life isn't.

[blue]

Because of Obama's voting records in the State and Federal senates and who he has choosen to associate with over the years I couldnt vote for him.

McCain may be socially conservative but he is fiscaly liberal so I couldnt vote for him either.

Both of them were long winded on ideas but very little on how they would implement those ideas.

I was pretty hopefull when Palin joined the Republican ticket but the McCain campaign kept her on the backburner, away from the press and controlled what she would say and that hurt McCain alot.

[Marigold2]

One thing that he doing right away is lifting the ban on stem cell research. :D:D There is so much good that will come of this.
I don't believe that most people realize that unwanted bits and pieces of humans, from a hospital or clinic are simply put in an oven and burned. After all it's not like the garbage man picks up things from a woman's clinic, these items are burned not thrown in a local dump. It's not a pretty thought I grant you, but facts are facts, so with these items going into the incinerator anyway lets do some testing on them and see if finding a cure for Parkinson, or diabetes, or nerve-regeneration is possible. This way the tissue isn't wasted and some good can come out of it.

[blue]

Adult stem cell research has never been banned. Adult stem cell research has never needed public funding. Now ask yourself why.

[Puckstop31]

One thing for sure, he'd really have to work hard at it to get us in a bigger mess than we are in right now! :love:

How spolied and naive we have become....

[Karen]

Adult stem cell research has never been banned. Adult stem cell research has never needed public funding. Now ask yourself why.

Adult stem cell research gets plenty of public funding, as do most areas of medical research.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

How spolied and naive we have become....

Well, maybe some of YOU have..... :rolleyes:

[lizbud]

Well, maybe some of YOU have..... :rolleyes:


You betcha.:) Some have always been, but only see it in others.:rolleyes:

[Puckstop31]

Sigh....


My point was to express that THIS is NOT as bad as it can get. The media has us all in a frenzy, trying to make us think life is horrible. Granted, the economy is not well.... But I assume you still have a roof over your head? Food in your belly? A warm place to sleep?

So YES, we as a people have become spoiled and naive if we really think how we live today is "horrible". What we define as "poverty" here, would be a life of grandeur in a lot of other places on Earth.

[Puckstop31]

You betcha.:) Some have always been, but only see it in others.:rolleyes:

I have and do admit my failures. Frankly, I cherish them. Because I believe that we find our greatest strengths when we overcome failure.

[carole]

Well said.:)

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Sigh....


My point was to express that THIS is NOT as bad as it can get. The media has us all in a frenzy, trying to make us think life is horrible. Granted, the economy is not well.... But I assume you still have a roof over your head? Food in your belly? A warm place to sleep?

So YES, we as a people have become spoiled and naive if we really think how we live today is "horrible". What we define as "poverty" here, would be a life of grandeur in a lot of other places on Earth.

Sorry if I misunderstood you. But the only reason I have a roof over my head is because of my brother. If he hadn't bought my house for me, I'd be homeless. :( Most of the "extras" I have, he bought for me too: my computer and tv among other things. My disability isn't enough to pay for rent and food and meds and other stuff too.

[carole]

I don't think puck was trying to make light of your situation, i think it was just a comparison to others in third world countries who really live in poverty,in shacks with no running water, sanitation,food,etc etc, if we compare to that, we are living in pure luxury.,that does not mean we don't have empathy for those less well off than ourselves, and yes it can be tough,i struggle on a day to day basis myself, but there really is no comparison to what these poor beggars are living. I count my blessings.

[Edwina's Secretary]

We are in a senseless war...brought to you by lies, lies and more lies. Our reputation as a world leader sullied by the misadventures of a reckless administration that has chipped away at our liberties at home. The confidence of the majority of Americans seriously shaken.

Millions of Americans without medical insurance -- which means without access to adequate medical care in many cases.

Sad that some people only measure how well off we are as a country by material things!

[Lady's Human]

ES, I'm going to keep this mild, again out of respect for the OP.

You have your opinion on the war in Iraq and the war on terror as a whole, but your opinion is just that, your opinion.

Just because you think the war is based on lies doesn't make it so. Just because you think it's senseless doesn't make it so.

Your hatred of the current administration is seriously coloring your judgement.

[lizbud]

ES, I'm going to keep this mild, again out of respect for the OP.




I thought you were removing yourself from the thread out of respect for
the OP? What happened? Why did you feel it was your duty to contradict
another person's opinion? Everybody's opinion should be respected, no?

[Lady's Human]

There's a difference between stating something as opinion and stating something as percieved fact.

The prior statement was mainly in reference to the topic the thread was previously drifting to. There is no such thing as a polite discussion on that particular topic, as tempers tend to flare when the discussion drifts in that direction.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I thought you were removing yourself from the thread out of respect for
the OP? What happened? Why did you feel it was your duty to contradict
another person's opinion? Everybody's opinion should be respected, no?

His hatred of my opinion is certainly coloring his judgement!:D:D

I have yet to see him respect any opinion that differs from his own opinion.

That this war is based on anything BUT lies is your opinion LH. Just that. Your opinion. Not fact.

And btw...my hatred is for the actions of this administration - not the administration. You know....hate the sin, love the sinner?

[catland]

Well, as you can see Carole, our reasons for voting for a particular person are quite varied.

What can seem like a forgivable flaw or misstep to one voter can be a deal breaker for another voter.

This is what our politicians have to deal with. Trying to appeal to as many voters as possible without stepping on too many landmines. Statements get taken out of context, and sometimes people hear what they want to hear.

There will never be a "perfect" candidate because all of us have different ideas of what that "perfect" candidate would be. I do not agree with my candidate on every issue, but he didn't do anything that fell into the "dealbreaker" category as far as I was concerned.

[lizbud]

There's a difference between stating something as opinion and stating something as percieved fact.




Facts, as we percieve them, create opinions.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Facts, as we percieve them, create opinions.


Nicely put, Liz. Especially as I was struggling over "perceived facts." I thought a fact to be a fact and a perception to be a perception.

"Perceived Fact" sounds like some kind of double speak to me.

[carole]

Thank you Catland, i value your comments.

Just something i wish to ask, Do any of you honestly think there are any americans and NZers for that matter, who live as a third world country, no sanitation,no water, no food, no home,no electricity, no future, i mean yes there are NZers here who are homeless and who i would consider live on the poverty line, but i still cannot compare them to a third world country, IMO they are still far better off than those poor souls.,anyhow that is just my opinion for what it is worth, we are the blessed i think.,and yes slightly off topic here, but then i am responding to anothers post in this thread.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

We have thousands of homeless people who have no shelter and no idea where their next meal is coming from who live in unsafe and unsanitary conditions every second. More are becoming homeless every day. Seems to me, we are on the verge of becoming a third world country. :(

What is the number who have to live in those conditions before we qualify?

[carole]

In answer to your question, well i really don't know, sure it exists, but there is so much wealth in both our countries too,in most third world countries they are just surrounded by poverty, it is everywhere,I guess i just don't see it as being quite the same,or to the same extent, i sure hope it does not become so..

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but doesn't wealth exist in third world countries too? It just belongs to a few in power though? :confused:

[lizbud]

In answer to your question, well i really don't know, sure it exists, but there is so much wealth in both our countries too,in most third world countries they are just surrounded by poverty, it is everywhere,I guess i just don't see it as being quite the same,or to the same extent, i sure hope it does not become so..


Homeless people have become the "invisable people" in my city. I see
news reports, complete with film clips, around the holidays reporting on
their dire circumstances. They say there are whole familes who live under
bridges & highway ramps.:( I do think national averages are underrated.

[carole]

ok thanks for answering my question, I think it is becoming worse in every country for sure and of course wealth exists in third world countries,I just think in NZ and the United States it is on a lesser scale, i have no facts to back myself up, but it is just how i think i guess.

[Marigold2]

There is a vast difference between being poor in America and being poor in India or Africia.
If you are poor in America you might only have one car, one TV and you shop at Walmart and go to a free clinic.
Being poor in Africia means you don't have shoes, have never seen a tooth brush, you have never been full, had an orange or apple, clean water to drink and spend your short and miserable life without seeing a Dr or having any meds at all. It's not having a bowl to put rice in.
There are different types of poor for sure. Here in America you have free education, free birth control, and many other opinions that millions in the world never have or dream off. As a woman you can wear the cloths you want, marry whom you want and practice the reglion you want, in Iran and Iraq being poor means being in fearof your life from gunfire and being afraid you will die of hunger. We are blessed and spoiled, we are one of the fattest and least educated people in the modern world. High crime, high teenage pregency rate, it goes on and on, we are poor in brains it seems often.
Maybe I'm wrong about this, but doesn't wealth exist in third world countries too? It just belongs to a few in power though? :confused:

[Karen]

There is a vast difference between being poor in America and being poor in India or Africia.
If you are poor in America you might only have one car, one TV and you shop at Walmart and go to a free clinic.

I have to disagree. Being poor in America can mean being homeless, staying in a shelter when you can get a bed, worrying how you will feed your children, choosing between paying the rent and feeding your family, often means having no car, never mind a TV. And with no car, you have no access or ability to get to that "free clinic" ... it can mean working two jobs and still falling further into debt, it can mean leaving your children with someone you cannot trust so you can work to get money to feed them ...

If you are homeless, you don't get that "free education" as you have no address from which to register your kids for school.

That doesn't mean being poor in India or Africa is any less horrific, or tragic. I was speaking with the woman who runs the ecumenical food pantry that is housed in our church basement, as she said not only is the need increasing dramatically, but that there are still people who don't believe that there are hungry people in their town.

[caseysmom]

Karen, I totally agree with you. Marigold, there are many homeless people with no car, no tv, and no money to shop at walmart.

[Lady's Human]

There are homeless in the US, there are poor people in the US.....

But we don't have entire cities made up of cardboard shacks.

[Marigold2]

Still I would rather be homeless in America then India or Africia.
There is more of a chance to get ahead in this country.
Being poor in India means life expectency is 35 instead of 70 or 80 here.
Most people in America have seen a Dr, have shoes, a toothbrush, a bowl to put food in, a chance at clean water.
People in Africia and India bath in the same water they drink.
I doubt anyone would choose being poor in those countries as oppossed to being poor in the USA.

[Puckstop31]

But we don't have entire cities made up of cardboard shacks.

I saw this, first hand in Somalia. People living in such squalor that I literally weeped. Me, big tough Army guy, 19 years old... Young, dumb and full of... I WEEPED for those people.

Yet those same people, who we were there to help shot at us. Fired RPGs at us... Why? Because their hate filled Cleric told them we are "the great satan." (read: Rich, successful people are the enemy.)


Poverty is akin to slavery. More often than not, the means to get people truly out of poverty exists. But shamefully, people in positions of power do things to keep them in poverty, to maintain power over them... (and keep the poor voting for them) Think about that as our President-Elect creates more welfare programs. Think about that as he takes money from the successful and gives it to the "poor". All that does is enable the poor to STAY poor and enslaved.

Welfare = SLAVERY

[Marigold2]

When I see people in India and Africia, the pooriest of the poor I always see tons of children. I think to myself, if I cannot feed myself, if clean water is something I don't have why why why would I bred and bring 7,10,12 more children into this world. I see this in every country where there are poor living in horrible conditions. They all have tons of kids. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: How can a woman do that? How can a man bring a child into this world knowing it will starve to death. If they had less children they might have a chance at improvement, but if they keep breeding they kill themselves.

[caseysmom]

Because they are not educated and have no access to birth control.

[Lady's Human]

CM, particularly in Africa, disease and high birthrate are more a product of lack of education than availability of resources.

Vaccinations and BC devices are readily available, but the distrust of western medicine and lack of education prevent the effective distribution and use of both.

Add to that warlords who are more interested in control than the welfare of the population and you wind up with a mess.

[Marigold2]

Yes I agree with all of your points but still..............
As a woman, as a mother I cannot image wanting to bring a child into this world to watch it starve to death. It is beyond my understanding. Perhaps I expect to much from these people and their leaders.

[Karen]

Yes I agree with all of your points but still..............
As a woman, as a mother I cannot image wanting to bring a child into this world to watch it starve to death. It is beyond my understanding. Perhaps I expect to much from these people and their leaders.

But without access to birth control or education, you wouldn't, as a woman, have a choice about whether or not to bring a child into this world.

I wish we, as human beings, could manage to do more to help people, so that things like preventable disease, malnutrition, and poverty no longer existed.

Feel as you like about Bill Gates, but at least his foundation - The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation - is putting money into some very worthwhile international causes. It is sad that the need exists, but good that they are trying.

[RICHARD]

There are homeless in the US, there are poor people in the US.....

But we don't have entire cities made up of cardboard shacks.

Years ago my parents would take us into Mexico to camp on the beach in Rosarito.

You would hit the border in San Ysidro and boom, There was literally a shanty town made up of cardboard house. It was built in a little valley/river bed that would flood out during the rainy season washing all the cardboard out to the ocean where the river emptied.

The river was also the sewer and a place for people to get water. All the time we drove by there I could not imagine that just over the border is a place where being 'poor' was having one TV in the house. Sharing a room with two other brothers, only having one car, getting one Christmas present- A good one, but one only. I remember getting a pillow and a candy cane filled with M&Ms one year. The local American Legion post gave us a box of food so that Christmas wasn't a total loss.

Being 'poor' in America is nothing like it is being poor anywhere else.

--------

Used garage doors.,

The huge one piece garage doors people replace on their homes to give them curb appeal?:rolleyes:

On Interstate 5 we'd drive to work and see these huge trucks with 30-40 garage doors loaded on the back.

I was thinking aobut loud an asked "what are they doing carting them down the freeway?" HOUSES, my brother answered. Houses?

Instead of tossed them out as scrap, people in Tijuana and points south would pay to use them as walls to the their shanties/homes. Go figure-people are b!tching about taking out low cost paper on their homes and other people put together homes out of mismatched garage doors.

I love America.

[blue]

Adult stem cell research gets plenty of public funding, as do most areas of medical research.

Yeah I screwwed that up pretty bad.

Adult stem cell research dosent have the sticky morale issues that embryotic stem cell research has.

[carole]

As a young person visiting the USA, i was totally gobsmacked when i crossed the border into Mexico, i don't know what it is like now, but you went from skyscrapers,to shanty towns, i have never forgotten it,seen nothing like it before, i was only 18 at the time, and it really had an impact on me.

I have to agree with a lot that has been said, i also think that poverty in Africa,India etc is way different to poverty in America or New Zealand, especially here as you are eligible for welfare if you need it, i don't know how the American system works, but in my opinion there is no need for homeless people in my country, it is their choice. I may get flamed for that comment, but i am saying this about my own country,as i know how the system works here.

Marigold, my teenage daughter often comments on why they keep having children in these countries,as has been said it is because of a lack of education and lack of access to birth control, it is a sad fact indeed.

People in Africa don't have the same access to food banks, or shelters as we do,there just is not enough food to go around, and a Tv, car, what on earth are those things,they do not even know what they are.

Poverty is poverty and is bad no matter where it is, and i feel for all who live lives that are indeed miserable, i feel for the homeless in the USA,but i have to be true to myself, i feel more for those in Africa.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

as you are eligible for welfare if you need it, i don't know how the American system works, but in my opinion there is no need for homeless people in my country, it is their choice.

Ok, I'll give you the point that the homeless in other countries are different than here. But I know of NO ONE in this country who would chose to be homeless!!!

Only families with children can get welfare here. While waiting to see if my disability would go through, I was on public assistance. A grand total of $125 a month. I defy you to live on that!!! Luckily for me, I still had a bit of my profit sharing money left to help pay the bills until my disability came through.
Then I paid ever cent of the public assistance money back so someone else could be helped.

Believe me, you don't know how terrifiying it is to not know where your next meal will come from or how you will keep a roof over your head until you've been through it. Sleeping in the cold in America is still as miserable as sleeping in the cold any where else!

Poor people in America aren't the ones who can only afford one car. I can't even afford that any more. I think they are lucky if they can still afford one.

[carole]

Please don't mis-understand me, i have a lot of empathy for your situation, i really do, i have been pretty poor myself, not to that extent, but i have experienced hardship to a point, but i still consider myself extremely fortunate, even back then when things were tough.

Yes i do think the welfare state is different here than the states, you still don't get a lot to live on, but way more than that.

I am not saying it is not tough for homeless people, i just think it is tougher in other countries that is all,I am really not coming down on you personally, please don't see it that way, i have great empathy for you and your situation,I always would want to help those who are less well off than myself.

You are right with a lot you say,can i just end this by saying I feel for all the people in the world who are having it tough, you included.:love:

I just wanted to add in NZ there is no need to be homeless in my opinion, because there is adequate welfare to get you by until you can either find a job or place to live, the homeless here are mostly people who do not want to work, do not fit into society for one reason or another , or who choose not to,some have drug or alcohol problems,are gang affiliated or young people who just do not want to conform to rules set by their parents, anyhow that is my take on it, in my country.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

That's ok, Carole, I see your point. ;)

Take it from me though, no matter what country you live in, save as much money as you can while you are young because when your health starts to decline and the jobs dry up, you'll need it. The older you get, the harder it is to get work.

The unemployment numbers are increasing really fast here. I really worry about middle age people (or older) who will need to find work. The jobs just aren't here right now. :(

[kitten645]

"But I know of NO ONE in this country who would chose to be homeless!!!"

I actually do :rolleyes: I've met people that argue that it's a "lifestyle choice" :eek: They have no interest in working or having any responsiblity. They like to be "free" to move about wherever they please. They chose that life and get very defensive if they percieve it's being threatened. Go figure:rolleyes:
Claudia

[carole]

Yes same here, we even had this man on the telly who choose to be homeless, he was very likeable, but he relied on soup kitchens for meals, and he really just did not want the normal lifestyle,however he had been doing this for years and now decided he would change,amazing.

Yes unemployment is getting bad here too, we have had my husband laid off twice in different jobs, and it was no picnic in the park that's for sure, i am always scared it might happen again, especially the way things are right now,one can never feel secure.

Again to those people who are genuinely homeless through no fault of their own, you have my utmost empathy and understanding.

[Marigold2]

Humans have known for over 7000 years how and where babies come from. Millions of people know the answer to this question without ever seeing a book or having a test.
If people in Mexico and Africia can't afford a child they should keep their pants on and their hands busy trying to make their life better.
I just cannot understand how anyone could bring a child into this world knowing it will starve to death, that is murder and the adults need to put their urges aside and find a way to make their lives better.
I have no pity for these people.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Humans have known for over 7000 years how and where babies come from. Millions of people know the answer to this question without ever seeing a book or having a test.
If people in Mexico and Africia can't afford a child they should keep their pants on and their hands busy trying to make their life better.
I just cannot understand how anyone could bring a child into this world knowing it will starve to death, that is murder and the adults need to put their urges aside and find a way to make their lives better.
I have no pity for these people.

I have to disagree with you on this Marigold. There are many places on this earth where women do not have the power to refuse sex with their husbands.

There is also the issue of biology. Organism are driven to reproduce. It is why they exist. The imperative to reproduce is as strong as that for food and water.

I agree with the idea that people should only have children they and the planet can afford. But then reality intrudes.

[Marigold2]

ES, I certaintly understand the needs of the birds and bees. But I would find a way to put those aside for the life of my children or child.
On the other hand expecting teenagers to "just say no" is being naive.

[Edwina's Secretary]

ES, I certaintly understand the needs of the birds and bees. But I would find a way to put those aside for the life of my children or child.
On the other hand expecting teenagers to "just say no" is being naive.

Yes, you probably would find a different way. But you are not living the life people do in third world countries. And, as you understand that expecting teeangers to just say "no" is naive you surely understand that many of "those people" are merely teenagers as well. Life expectancy being what it is and all.

I think to have no compassion or pity because they do not know how to control the size of their families (other than total abstinence) is a bit...short-sighted?

I have never understood why missionaries and other religious/aid workers do not hand out birth control as the first thing. But that is for another thread.

[Marigold2]

LOL I am short sighted, been wearing glasses for years. :cool::cool:
I am one of those people that when told it can't be done or you shouldn't do that, well that is a challage and I love challages, builds charactor, strength and it's fun as all get out.

[JenBKR]

I have never understood why missionaries and other religious/aid workers do not hand out birth control as the first thing. But that is for another thread.


They do - many hand out condoms. However, some don't believe in birth control (mostly a sect of Catholics, I believe).

[caseysmom]

Humans have known for over 7000 years how and where babies come from. Millions of people know the answer to this question without ever seeing a book or having a test.
If people in Mexico and Africia can't afford a child they should keep their pants on and their hands busy trying to make their life better.
I just cannot understand how anyone could bring a child into this world knowing it will starve to death, that is murder and the adults need to put their urges aside and find a way to make their lives better.
I have no pity for these people.

Wow I can't even respond to this in a kind manner so I won't.

[Puckstop31]

I recall, during my time in Somalia... Remember, this was 1993/1994

We would find large amounts of unsed comdoms, still in wrappers. They were given to the "skinnies" by UN sponsored aid organizations. Why were they not used? The "Great Satan" wanted them to use them. Their Clerics told them Allah would disown them if they did....

Never forget that what WE (the west) see as reasonable rarely applies to the average 3rd world nation...

[caseysmom]

I recall, during my time in Somalia... Remember, this was 1993/1994

We would find large amounts of unsed comdoms, still in wrappers. They were given to the "skinnies" by UN sponsored aid organizations. Why were they not used? The "Great Satan" wanted them to use them. Their Clerics told them Allah would disown them if they did....

Never forget that what WE (the west) see as reasonable rarely applies to the average 3rd world nation...

This is exactly what I meant by education, not knowing that having sex causes babies, rather knowing whom to trust and the knowledge to base those decisions, not being told if you do these things you will go to hell.

[Edwina's Secretary]

They do - many hand out condoms. However, some don't believe in birth control (mostly a sect of Catholics, I believe).

Just for the record...there are not "sects" of Catholics. And the Catholic church is opposed to all artificial birth control.

[JenBKR]

Just for the record...there are not "sects" of Catholics. And the Catholic church is opposed to all artificial birth control.

Actually, there are. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, to name a few. Some are very strict and traditional, some more lenient. I believe that Lutherans are allowed birth contol.

[JenBKR]

This is exactly what I meant by education, not knowing that having sex causes babies, rather knowing whom to trust and the knowledge to base those decisions, not being told if you do these things you will go to hell.

Exactly!

[carole]

Marigold where as i respect your view, i think you are the one being naive here,I agree 100 per cent they should not keep on having children they cannot afford, seems such a simple answer and solution, but it is not as simple as that,more complicated than we can imagine.

[Marigold2]

Being Lutheran I know that we are allowed to use birth control and do.
I guess I just expect too much from people. If a religon forbids birth control and your children are dying it's time to use your God given brain and say "What up with that" would a true, kind, just, forgiving, understanding God want this? I guess if you are brainwashed into thinking you will go to hell there isn't much help for you. Religon can often do more harm then good when not mixed with good ole fashioned common sense.
Sometimes the answer is simple. Be good, be kind, be smart. Don't follow everything a religon says, otherwise you follow a falsh belief.

[RICHARD]

Never forget that what WE (the west) see as reasonable rarely applies to the average 3rd world nation...

Thank You.

"We" have this effing elitist attitude about ourselves that people from around the planet have to laugh at.

IF you are forced to turn tricks to make a few bucks a month to make sure your kids get fed, you put your health and well being at risk, along with the chance that you will get knocked up because YOUR government/leaders/warlords don't give a flying shiat about you. Mix in some good ole tyme religion and you get what happens in the 'country of Africa' - extreme poverty.

It's way too easy to make a statement about a situation that you know nothing about. Some of us have walked among people and their world and it makes us appreciate all the stupidly simple things we all take for granted.

------------------

The question is not why do these people keep having babies-It more like, "What will they do to keep them and themselves alive?"

There is nothing more powerful, that I have seen, than the love of a mother or a woman who has her back against the wall. I know that most of them will do anything for their families.

It's a shame that "we" have such a crappy, egotisical view of everyone else.

I love my country, but have to wonder about the people in it.


----------------


Sorry kids!

You have to remember that s-e-x isn't the recreational sport that US "civilized" people think it is in 'the country of Africa'. More often than not, it's a way of life that keeps you in the game of life.

How sucky does that sound?

[caseysmom]

Thank You.

"We" have this effing elitist attitude about ourselves that people from around the planet have to laugh at.

IF you are forced to turn tricks to make a few bucks a month to make sure your kids get fed, you put your health and well being at risk, along with the chance that you will get knocked up because YOUR government/leaders/warlords don't give a flying shiat about you. Mix in some good ole tyme religion and you get what happens in the 'country of Africa' - extreme poverty.

It's way too easy to make a statement about a situation that you know nothing about. Some of us have walked among people and their world and it makes us appreciate all the stupidly simple things we all take for granted.

------------------

The question is not why do these people keep having babies-It more like, "What will they do to keep them and themselves alive?"

There is nothing more powerful, that I have seen, than the love of a mother or a woman who has her back against the wall. I know that most of them will do anything for their families.

It's a shame that "we" have such a crappy, egotisical view of everyone else.

I love my country, but have to wonder about the people in it.


----------------


Sorry kids!

You have to remember that s-e-x isn't the recreational sport that US "civilized" people think it is in 'the country of Africa'. More often than not, it's a way of life that keeps you in the game of life.

How sucky does that sound?

I totally agree with you especially this


It's a shame that "we" have such a crappy, egotisical view of everyone else.


The arrogance in marigold's post astounds me.

[sparks19]

I totally agree with you especially this


It's a shame that "we" have such a crappy, egotisical view of everyone else.


The arrogance in marigold's post astounds me.

I couldnt' agree more.

Unbelievable.

It's kind of funny because she talks about how these third world countries who have no source of education should just know better but here in the US and in Canada we HAVE all that education yet many people STILL get pregnant because they just don't use it or "don't have access" to it.

but we expect 3rd world countries who don't get the education to be better about it than we are.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Actually, there are. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, to name a few. Some are very strict and traditional, some more lenient. I believe that Lutherans are allowed birth contol.

No. Lutherans are not a sect of the Catholic faith. Martin Luther broke off from the Catholic faith hundred of years ago.

Christianity once meant Catholic. No longer. Not for hundreds of years.

There are Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox Catholics, Russian Orthodox Catholics, Lutherans, Baptist, Episcopalians, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and dozens and dozens of other religions under the overarching "Christians."

But they are not "sects" of The Catholic faith.

[Edwina's Secretary]

It's kind of funny because she talks about how these third world countries who have no source of education should just know better but here in the US and in Canada we HAVE all that education yet many people STILL get pregnant because they just don't use it or "don't have access" to it.


Yes, I can think of a recent example of this!:D:D:D

[blue]

Yes, I can think of a recent example of this!:D:D:D

And Im sure it brought you great joy.:rolleyes:

[RICHARD]

A little more on our FA attitude-

On this thread there is a pretty decent cross section of what "America" is all about. We have all these wonderful ideas, fashions and fads that travel all around the world that suck everyone else into out ideals, waste and stupidity.

Where else in the world do parents buy kids a cell phone so the little effer can disrupt class, get it lost, stolen or broken? We have the luxury of sending a kid to his room to suffer the consequences for misbehaving, right?

Yep, Ipod, Blackberry, PC, XBox, cell phone, DVD player and all that stuff in the room?

Turn off all your crap and live out of a tent for a week? Cook over a bovine dung fire? Poop into a hole in the ground? How's about you women for those few days outta the month? Call in sick and lie in bed with the remote.

Then think about your 3-4 days of cramps and what are the kids going to eat, what you will cook for them, the cow crap you have to gather for a fire, water to fetch-did I forget the cows to milk? Sheep to herd? Oh please, It's just a big s-e-x party for all the people in the country formerly known as Africa. IT's just s-e-x everyday, pop out kids and have more fun.


Here's a one for you.

How many of us have ever used a wood out house and picked the splinters outta the back of your thighs for a while after? A campground crapper made out of brick and stinking to high heaven was better than THAT pain in the as----uh, thighs.

'We' will dismiss a set of people by making some silly statement about how they live and why they don't get religion/BC/education/smart about s-e-x and really never investigate why they are stuck in the situation they are in.

It's more arrogance than ignorance. Uninformed people will learn, vain people might learn, but what is more dangerous? Stupid people who act smart or smart people that act stupid?

The old saying that KNOWLEDGE IS POWER is apropo these days.

People here in the U.S. know we are getting screwed over by some people in office. Some people across the planet don't even know who is in charge-no one to blame, no one to set 'the record' right, no government, advocate, voice to speak for them.

And because we can, let's just bypass the governments that make their lives hell and blame it on the people who live there. IT's far easier, we don't have to beef with anyone and we can keep our soldiers home.

I have to laugh at all you fricking gomers out there who believe that everyone is going to be our friend now that we will have a new government seated.
Every AH will be looking toward our new benevolent 'change' in political position now.

And what a position it will be....Can you say BOHICA?:rolleyes:

[JenBKR]

No. Lutherans are not a sect of the Catholic faith. Martin Luther broke off from the Catholic faith hundred of years ago.

Christianity once meant Catholic. No longer. Not for hundreds of years.

There are Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox Catholics, Russian Orthodox Catholics, Lutherans, Baptist, Episcopalians, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and dozens and dozens of other religions under the overarching "Christians."

But they are not "sects" of The Catholic faith.

In the sociology of religion a sect is generally a smaller religious or political group that has broken off from a larger group; for example from a large, well-established religious group, like a denomination, usually due to a dispute about doctrinal matters.


There are many groups outside the Roman Catholic church which are regarded as Catholic sects, such as the Community of the Lady of All Nations, the Palmarian Catholic Church, the Philippine Independent Church, the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church, the Free Catholic Church, the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God and others

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect



Many individual Christians and Christian denominations consider themselves "catholic" on the basis, in particular, of Apostolic Succession. They fall into four groups:

1.The Western and Eastern Churches of the Roman Catholic Church (often referred to simply as "the Catholic Church"). These understand "Catholic" to involve unity with the Bishop of Rome,[8] and hold that "the one Church of Christ ... subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure."[9]

2.Those others that, like the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Old Catholic, Anglican, and some Lutheran and other denominations, claim unbroken Apostolic Succession from the early Church. Some of these identify themselves as the Catholic Church (e.g. the Orthodox Churches), while others see themselves as a constituent part of the Church (e.g. the Old Catholics, Anglicans).

3.Those who claim to be spiritual descendants of the Apostles but have no discernible institutional descent from the historic Church, and normally do not refer to themselves as catholic.

4.Those who have acknowledged a break in Apostolic Succession, but have restored it in order to be in full communion with bodies that have maintained the practice. Examples in this category include the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada vis-à-vis their Anglican and Old Catholic counterparts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism
Although the Lutheran World Federation has been in ecumenical dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church since shortly after the Second Vatican Council, it was not until 1999 that far-reaching ecumenical relations were established between the Lutheran World Federation and the Roman Catholic Church when they jointly issued a statement, the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, that declared commonality of the Roman Catholic and Lutheran doctrines on Justification.[3]. While a number of Lutheran theologians saw this as a sign that the Roman Catholic Church was essentially adopting the Lutheran position, most Lutheran theologians disagreed, claiming that, considering the public documentation of the Catholic Church's position, this assertion does not hold up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran

And more on this page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Evangelical#Lutheran_Evangelical_Catholic ity

[Marigold2]

The choice on weather or not to have children is one of our rights as humans.
A young couple in Mexico in a shanty town could sit down and say to themselves "we want more, we want a better life for our children" and work to achieve that before having a child. It starts with two people dreaming and working for something better. It has to do with personal responsiblity that we all have to take.
And yes I know about laws and sects and how a 12 year old will be sent out to make a living for her family. That is not what I am talking about.
I am talking about people who have a choice but don't act upon it.
Generations after generations not learning, no personal growth, no will to improve their lives or their childrens lives. You see this all over the world from our country as well. In America it's generation after generation living on welfare, grandmother, mother and teenage daughter all living in one home and not one has finished highschool. It's Africia and Mexico where ever people choose sex over a decent life for their kids. You can't force these people to become more responsible it has to come from within.

[JenBKR]

In any case, ES, my point was that many missionaries DO hand out condoms, but that's as far as they can go. They can't put the condoms on people, all they can do is try to educate. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

[caseysmom]

The choice on weather or not to have children is one of our rights as humans.
A young couple in Mexico in a shanty town could sit down and say to themselves "we want more, we want a better life for our children" and work to achieve that before having a child. It starts with two people dreaming and working for something better. It has to do with personal responsiblity that we all have to take.
And yes I know about laws and sects and how a 12 year old will be sent out to make a living for her family. That is not what I am talking about.
I am talking about people who have a choice but don't act upon it.
Generations after generations not learning, no personal growth, no will to improve their lives or their childrens lives. You see this all over the world from our country as well. In America it's generation after generation living on welfare, grandmother, mother and teenage daughter all living in one home and not one has finished highschool. It's Africia and Mexico where ever people choose sex over a decent life for their kids. You can't force these people to become more responsible it has to come from within.

You can't force people to learn the english language properly either, that has to come from within.

[Edwina's Secretary]

In the sociology of religion a sect is generally a smaller religious or political group that has broken off from a larger group; for example from a large, well-established religious group, like a denomination, usually due to a dispute about doctrinal matters.



Etc. etc. etc. I am sure the Lutherans will be very surprised to learn they are a sect of the Catholic Church.

I have no horse in this race but you sure do remind me of another member who will go to the internet search well and dance a firey dance to avoid admitting he is wrong about ANYTHING.

[JenBKR]

Etc. etc. etc. I am sure the Lutherans will be very surprised to learn they are a sect of the Catholic Church.

I have no horse in this race but you sure do remind me of another member who will go to the internet search well and dance a firey dance to avoid admitting he is wrong about ANYTHING.

Oh for crying out loud. You know what, forget it. I don't have time for this. You completely avoided my main point, and it took me all of two minutes to pull that information up. The main reason I did was because I thought that maybe I was mistaken, and I wanted to read about it. However, what I found supported what I had thought, so I provide links. Unlike you, I was not condescending or rude to you at all.

[RICHARD]

I am talking about people who have a choice but don't act upon it.
Generations after generations not learning, no personal growth, no will to improve their lives or their childrens lives.

Show me where the governments of these country's has offered the population any assistance for these things. You have to have the infrastructure to allow people the 'personal growth' that you believe is so readily available.

Please, Your view of exactly what happens in a third world country is exactly what I alluded to earlier....You cannot have any idea as to what happens there unless you have traveled, spoken to people or have relatives who have endured that type of lifestyle.

----------

It's fun to be a young idealist.

I loved it until the world kicked me in the face while I was wearing my shades.
The cool ones-the kind that block out the stupid things on the planet.:cool:

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Sometimes religion is all the hope the people in third world countries have. They have been taught by their parents to believe certain things. Remember, they have no Internet access and may not have much contact with the world outside their communities. How can they think for themselves and know what they believe in if they have never heard there are even options?

Reminds me of a news clip I saw a few weeks ago. In one of the poor countries, they were starving to death. They grew amazing potato crops, however. They would not eat the potatoes themselves, preferring to starve to death just because they had the belief that the potatoes would make them fat. This makes no sense to me but apparently it does to them. :(
(I think this was on CNN but couldn't find the link)

[caseysmom]

Marigold, I am not sure why you keep bringing up mexico, have you spent much time there? Mexico does have poverty but they have a lot of good things there too, many of their priorities are a little bit better than the ones here imo.

Are you basing this on newsclip or have you spent a lot of time there?

[sparks19]

Yes, I can think of a recent example of this!:D:D:D

Care to put your "recent example of this" out there?

[caseysmom]

The United States has a huge teen pregnancy problem, wouldn't expect that from this country but it exists. I don't think we have any room to look down our noses at anyone.

And since it is out there, as much as I didn't agree with Sarah Palin on a lot of issues its is not her fault her daughter is pregnant nor does it mean she is a bad mother. Walk in her shoes before you cast judgement, no mother wants her kid to go through that. We nurture and teach till we are blue in the face but when it comes right down to it our kids are individuals.

[sparks19]

and sometimes... birth control fails.

[Edwina's Secretary]

And Im sure it brought you great joy.:rolleyes:

Oh! Nice eye roll. No. I find unwed teenage mothers one of the bigger problems in this country. An unwed teenage mother runs a greater chance of living in poverty, living off welfare, raising children who are more likely to have many, many problems.

I am an advocate of adoption for the child of an unwed teenage mother. I find nothing admirable in an unwed teenage mother. I find it sad.

If I could work in any field...I would work to convince teenagers that there is more to life than getting pregnant and having your baby as your date to the prom.

[blue]

Oh! Nice eye roll. No. I find unwed teenage mothers one of the bigger problems in this country. An unwed teenage mother runs a greater chance of living in poverty, living off welfare, raising children who are more likely to have many, many problems.

I am an advocate of adoption for the child of an unwed teenage mother. I find nothing admirable in an unwed teenage mother. I find it sad.

If I could work in any field...I would work to convince teenagers that there is more to life than getting pregnant and having your baby as your date to the prom.

Glad you liked the :rolleyes:, Im sure many people enjoyed your :D:D:D.

There where many Obama supporters who were absolutely giddy when the story of Bristol Palin's pregnancy broke. More then a few of them hoped Bristol would break from her families values and have an abortion.

[carole]

Woah this thread has certainly become fiesty, to put it mildly,and changed topic over and over again, and i am as guilty as anyone for changing it, but I have learned a lot from you all, and thank you for your varied opinions on every topic raised here,some of us just have to agree to disagree i think.

I do think their is some naivety amongst some of us, and some see it in black and white, and i just don't believe it is like that at all,I think Richard raised some very good points in his thread,as did many others.

Now back to the original topic,can anyone tell me what Obama is going to do about the troops, is he going to bring them home? what is is stance on the war?

[RICHARD]

Now back to the original topic,can anyone tell me what Obama is going to do about the troops, is he going to bring them home? what is is stance on the war?

Thanks.....

BO started with the idea that he wanted to 'end' the war and bring home the troops in 16 months. Apparently, upon advice of an on the ground commander of the forces over in the ME, he may commit another 30,000 troops to the effort.

That is one of my biggest bug-a-boos about how "sheepish" people are in the U.S. They take an election promise to heart, elect the bozo that made it and not give a whit of attention when he changes his mind AFTER he gets elected.

The media has also alluded to the fact that he is surrounding himself with advisors who have 'experience' in their respective fields-the biggest hit against BO was his inexperience in running any kind of government machine.

In the U.S. government system, each state has a number of congress reps, based on the population, and two senators who represent in Wash, d.c.

BO was a senator for less than three years, with no experience at the congressional level or local level as a politician.

People think that the 'change' that BO thinks he will make for the country will be the end all/be all in world postion and politics. Come back for a peek at what happens in around 2010-2011. You'll hear the same sorry whining from the disenfranchised, spoiled citizens of the United States.

Here's a little background on our president-elect.

I know you have what amounts to territories in Oz, about 7?

I didn't look it up, so if I am wrong, I apologize. BO lives in the U.S. and made a statement about the "57 states" of the union.

;)There are only 50 with a few territories- simple American History-any person that paid attention in school would know that. To my knowledge he never made a correction to the statement, you know to put us worry warts at east.

It was glossed over as a faux paus and never addressed again. People complained about GWB's pronunciation of the word 'nuclear', but cannot be bothered about a historical fact.:confused:




He will be my president, and as I said before, he is the one driving the bus-so I have to go with where he drives us.

[Lady's Human]

Pes. Elect Obama made campaign promises about bringing the troops home, without realising the tactical and strategic positions on the ground.

Now that he's seen the full blown briefings and Sitreps, he's going to have to deal with the reality of the position, rather than absolutes.

[lizbud]

BO was a senator for less than three years, with no experience at the congressional level or local level as a politician.




Not true Richard. Better check your facts again. Obama served 3 years
as a Senator in the Illinois House before running for the US Congress.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/us/politics/30obama.html

[RICHARD]

Not true Richard. Better check your facts again. Obama served 3 years
as a Senator in the Illinois House before running for the US Congress.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

Chicago is one of the extra countries in the Nation of Illinois. It's the 54th state, so it don't count.

;)

My fault, I stand corrected.

[carole]

Richard just for the record mate i live in NEW ZEALAND not OZ ok.:):D:cool:

Well yes thought i had read somewhere he was intending to bring home the troops, that is why I asked, again promises they never can keep eh?

[lizbud]

Well yes thought i had read somewhere he was intending to bring home the troops, that is why I asked, again promises they never can keep eh?


Obama isn't even the President yet. You can't correct eight years of
terrible decisions in a day or a year either. What he can do is change the
policies esposed by Bush & Co. that got us into this mess, at home and
abroad.

[carole]

Yes Yes i understand this.

[lizbud]

Yes Yes i understand this.


Sorry Carole.:) Didn't mean so sound irate or anything, I just get so tired
of all the gloom & doom predictions about the new President. I hear it a
lot here in the DH.

[tatsxxx11]

"Barack served 8 years as an IL State Senator before being elected to the U.S. Senate.

He serves as a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Veterans Affairs Committee, Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, and Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee.

During his eight years in the Illinois state Senate, Senator Obama worked with both Democrats and Republicans to help working families get ahead by creating programs like the state Earned Income Tax Credit, which in three years provided over $100 million in tax cuts to families across the state. He also pushed through an expansion of early childhood education, and after a number of inmates on death row were found innocent, Senator Obama enlisted the support of law enforcement officials to draft legislation requiring the videotaping of interrogations and confessions in all capital cases."

http://obama.senate.gov/about/

[RICHARD]

Carol,
Oh please!

There was a "Z'' in there someplace... I cannot differentiate from the accents.;) LOLOLOLOL, Middle Earth, New Zealand-IT's all the same to me.:o

Boy, I never paid attention to BO's prolific resume.

I couldn't get past his brio and the thought that it's like putting the guy that assembles the tricycles in Toys "R" Us as the head mechanic at the Harley Davidson dealership In Sturgis.

Sporster? Wide Glide? :confused:

BO tickled all the antiwar people's arses by PROMISING he would end the Iraq/Afghan involvement of the U.S. in 16 months, He's no miracle worker and he cannot wave a magic wand over all our problems.

People refuse to even THINK that the 9/11 attack was in the planning stages while Bill Clinton was still in office. So if there is blame to go around, spread it between BC and GWB= BC stripped the armed forces with budget cuts that forced out many of our soldiers and closed many military bases.

There are times when having a hindsight that only goes back eight years makes any arguement convincing.

[carole]

You are forgiven Richard, but like i said in my Pm to you , i can tell the difference between a canadian and an American,infact the aussie and NZer's do have a quite distinct differences in their accent,it may not be obvious to you, but it is to us,we say fush and chups they say feesh n cheeps., i am saying fish and chips, now that is just but one of many examples.i accept your humble excuses lol.

Anyhoo, back to the thread, i just heard him say yesterday , that he was getting rid of the prison where they are holding terrorists, cannot remember the name of it starts with a G,he said Americans don't torture, to quote him.

Hey Lizbud i understand, i actually like the man. we are on the same side, just pointing out that here and anywhere politicians make promise they really have no intention of keeping.,not singling Barack out, just in general that is what happens.

[JenBKR]

politicians make promise they really have no intention of keeping.,not singling Barack out, just in general that is what happens.

Oh I agree, seems that you hear so many promises that are never kept. I think that many politicians make promises that sound good, but when they get in office and get all of the private info, they realize that what they promised may not be possible, or in the best interest of the people. I think it would be pretty hard to make promises and keep them without having all of the facts first!

[RICHARD]

Anyhoo, back to the thread, i just heard him say yesterday , that he was getting rid of the prison where they are holding terrorists, cannot remember the name of it starts with a G,he said Americans don't torture, to quote him.



Guantanamo Bay in the SE part of Cuba. (this geography I know!).
It all depends on what you consider torture. There have been report of prisoners being subjected to sensory deprivation or sensory overloads. The Abu Gharib story was another story of American's "torturing" prisoners.

A few scumbags got it into their heads that it was O.K. to humiliate prisoners held there. IN theory what the world thinks is torture is a long way from the way that some governments and individuals have treated prisoners -war and other types- in the past.

I have no problems with any politico lying about things he will change once he wins office. It's the grandeur and 'change' that pulls the people in. ANd when you promise whiz-bang changes and back down before your first day on the job is very promising indeed. Our president elect will have no problem fitting into the mold of a politician.

[lizbud]

I have no problems with any politico lying about things he will change once he wins office. It's the grandeur and 'change' that pulls the people in. ANd when you promise whiz-bang changes and back down before your first day on the job is very promising indeed. Our president elect will have no problem fitting into the mold of a politician.

Why do you say that you have no problem with politicians who lie, when
you clearly do?

If you are talking about Presidental candidates, please name three.

[RICHARD]

Why do you say that you have no problem with politicians who lie, when
you clearly do?

If you are talking about Presidental candidates, please name three.

Going on BIG lies and stupid lies.

JM - we may be in Iraq for 100 years- that's a reality, could be a lie.

BO - In 16 months all the troops will be home. That's a pipe dream and a lie.

HRC - Yes, she can. Stupid lie.

If a PC comes out and says something stupid that I think is a white lie he can slide with that.

When they come out and promise that they will take care of global warming, terror attacks and our dependence on oil?

THose are out and out freaking lies.

Solamente un tonto, le dicea al el.

And borrowing a political line from a bunch of disenfranchised Mexican citizens is highly original.:confused::eek:

[phesina]

You are forgiven Richard, but like i said in my Pm to you , i can tell the difference between a canadian and an American,infact the aussie and NZer's do have a quite distinct differences in their accent,it may not be obvious to you, but it is to us,we say fush and chups they say feesh n cheeps., i am saying fish and chips, now that is just but one of many examples.i accept your humble excuses lol.


This reminds me of about 30 years ago when I was hanging out in Doolin, Co. Clare, Ireland for a while. A lot of travelers passed through all the time, including quite a few from both Australia and New Zealand. One time while chatting with a couple of Kiwis, I mentioned that I'd noticed the New Zealanders always had their flag sewn onto their packs. "That's so people don't mistake us for Australian," they replied.

"Oh, yeah, like Canadians always have their flag on their packs so as not to be mistaken for Americans!" I said.

I can tell the difference between Australian and New Zealand accents.. I think I still can, anyway, at this point.. it's been quite a while now.

[RICHARD]

http://www.victoryplate.com/?directLoad&uid=25D09C85FFE1C59DEAFC9F6CE97AC043


Dishwasher safe?


I still have my Bill Clinton bib, is that worth anything?

[Marigold2]

No I have never been to Mexico and don't think I would ever go. I don't like beaches or warm weather.
My comment had to do with all the Mexicans coming here accross our boarder and first thing they do is drop a kid so they can stay. I wish more of them would try and make their country a place they can be proud of instead of one they want to leave.
As for the other comments.
There are many fine examples of people before the interent, before everyone had a TV or even a newspaper, people who went against the grain and made a positive difference, education or no education.
Dolly Parton comes to mind. She grew up very poor, in a small town and instead of having 14 kids she wanted something better for herself. Oprah is another example as is Obama. He grew up without a father, of mixed race which back then was unheard of in my corner of the world and instead of turning to drugs or having children he turned to growth and education. All of these people started life with no money and all became wonderful, and postive people.
Money, education do not make a good person or intellignet person. Michael Landon and Carol Burnett are two more examples of people who had sad and poor starts but pulled themselves up and made a positive effect on this world.
No matter where you live, or what you have to deal with people have to take the first step and say to themselves I can be different, I can overcome, this does not have to be my life. I don't have to do what my parents did. All it takes is a bit of brains and some hard work and a dream for something better. The government is not soley responable for peoples well being and happiness. Birth control as you said can be given out but if people don't use it then they are going to remain poor. People need to want to change, it has to be something in their soul if you will. I am sure many of the Dr's we have in this country grew up on the poor streets of Calcutta and pulled themselves up and out.
Kennedy had one of the best speeches ever. Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. And if you think about it, most of the people we admire, truly look up to have followed that advice.
Marigold, I am not sure why you keep bringing up mexico, have you spent much time there? Mexico does have poverty but they have a lot of good things there too, many of their priorities are a little bit better than the ones here imo.

Are you basing this on newsclip or have you spent a lot of time there?

[Edwina's Secretary]

No My comment had to do with all the Mexicans coming here accross our boarder and first thing they do is drop a kid so they can stay.

I vowed to stay away. But I cannot allow such an ignorant, disgusting, filthy statement to go unchallenged.

Drop a kid. You are an embarrassment.

[caseysmom]

I vowed to stay away. But I cannot allow such an ignorant, disgusting, filthy statement to go unchallenged.

Drop a kid. You are an embarrassment.


I am speechless at the racism of this remark. This is deeply offending on so many levels.

[Lady's Human]

Now you've irritated me. You've got me agreeing with ES on something.:eek:

[ilovemypup]

Marigold...that is such a disrespectful...stressful post I don't even know where to begin.

[RICHARD]

No I have never been to Mexico and don't think I would ever go. I don't like beaches or warm weather.




I guess California is off your bucket list?

Hey, check this out. Find out the reason why Dolly Parton looks the way she does. Interesting story.

Michael Landon is dead and the Carol Burnett thing with her ear was a secret code.


Anything else you aren't clear on?

And did you like the plate?:confused:

[blue]

Im sure the anchor baby tactic, Amendment 14, has been used by many people of many races, and from many countries. I can see Marigold's point but she could have been much more tactfull in stating it.

Like Im one to talk about being tactfull.

[caseysmom]

I can see Marigold's point


No surprise to hear that.

[Bonny]

I can see Marigolds point. The thing is every different race has different customs. My sister in law's sister who is a nun went to Africa thinking she was going to teach the women about birth control. Sister got very frustrated & came back to the states shaking her head. A man becomes a man when he produces off spring before the age of 15 or else he is not a man.

We are dealing with a historical raid on a Jewish Kosher plant where they allowed illegals to come in & work & got caught. It is a big mess. They don't have any health insurance & our local hospital has had to suck up losses incurred treating the illegals & legals. Luckily there are people who do care food, & housing has been donated. Some have found new jobs & homes with the help of translaters from our local college. There are some illegals back in the little town caring for their children & have to wear ankle braclets. There are people working to help them get through this not knowing what their fate will be? A person gets torn between what is right & what isn't. All I know the world is over populated & I don't think God planned on it being this way even though he/she said go forth & multiply.

[RICHARD]

I went to bed thinking about this thread.....

I have to say something about the Mexican community. I know it well.
MY dad was an I!!E@G@! -Apparently there is an effort afoot to prevent the word illegal from being used in courts all across the country- and he made it a priority that his kids get a good life here in the Good Old United States. There is a very disturbing trend at identifying all illegals as "mexicans". More on that later on.

The new adjectives for people who cross the border are, Undocumented, Misplaced, Forced out.......and so on! LOL, the next legal term for a murderer will be a "Denier of Life".:rolleyes::confused:

---------------

The phrase "drop a kid" is more a slam against the kid, than it is against the mother or a race/culture. The first person who suggested that it may smack of racism needs to look first at where the phrase came from.

Somewhere-I do believe I heard it start somewhere in the San Diego media-someone tossed out the term anchor baby. Is that a slam against sailors?
Heavy metal objects used to hold boats/ships in place? Drop a baby? Not too enamoured of that term, but these days the vernacular tends to make things/circumstances nice, neat little packages that will get the news reader under the three-minute-per-story-time limit.

I actually have more of a problem with the tone of the post - As you may all know, Dolly Parton modeled her look after the streetwalkers/prostitutes of her town. What does that say about her?

The post was intended to shock and to make people really upset. It really doesn't bother me. I understand the irritation in the comments-I have to laugh at the Indian doctor/Calcutta reference-that's probably not true-most of the young Indian docs were born here and went to school in the U.S.

---------------

I am all for immigration, green cards, visas and all the other good stuff that brings productivity and prosperity to our country. But you have to start at the top and parsing some of the blame where it belongs.

The government-elected officials and laws- have been very lax about the rules covering immigration. Some who want to curb the problem are "racists" others who want to enact laws protecting the illegality of what is happening are the people who are looking for the 'destruction' of what we have now in the country.

------------------

I don't want to go on because it's all stuff we have hashed out before-but one thing that makes me laugh.

Si Se Puede is a term that the Mexican population coined a few years back in an effort to win back the government from the AH people in charge.

It's an incomplete thought-Yes It Can-It should be Si Se Puede Hacer- Yes It Can Be Done. So right there I shake my head at the 'value' of the phrase.

It evolves into a rallying cry for our election, and again it's an incomplete thought, Yes We Can-Can what? Now people will say it's incomplete because it opens up the possibility of being able to do anything, but incomplete ideas like that are just that, incomplete ideas.

Si Se Puede? Not anytime soon, the same people who looked to wrestle control back to the people in Mexico are the ones dying everyday in Tijuana, in the wars between the drug cartels. The buzz on the spanish language channels was to support the BO run for office because the Dems were looking at amnesty for everyone in some way.

The interviews from the Illegal Man on the Street were telling, Maybe the new presidente los va dar derechos!!!! The illegals were looking at the new president to give them rights!

Which brings us to the idea of granting rights to people who are here illegally.

They should be granted HUMAN RIGHTS, but extending them the privileges that we have earned, bled and payed for seems to defeat some of the ideas we have about living in the U.S.

This is a tough subject to broach and there are arguements on both sides that are to be listened to, but I tend to look at the statements made more as a slam against people in general. The pinpointing of a certain group-Mexicans- show a certain degree of ignorance regarding the total picture. I don't take it personally and think it just reflects the ideas the media puts out about people.

Anyone that speaks spanish is Mexican, so, if all illegals speak spanish?:confused:

I guess that could be a racist statement, but I have always thought that some of the more racist statements are ground in fact. Wetback, Beaner, Taco Bender-the term "Wada" is the spanish equivalent of the N-word. The Hispanic population use it freely, without the drama attached to the N-word. We tend to shrug our shoulders and get back to work. We cannot argue with the terms because they are based in who and what we are. I am a Beaner, but not a wetback-That is the way the Border Patrol would I.D. the people who had just made it across the river to the U.S., I am a taco bender-it's just words.

I am not offended, If you want to hurt me, tell me that as a citizen I cannot partake in what I contribute to. That will make me mad-and maybe the next time you bite into a taco or burrito, or eat rice and beans-think about the nice people who brought you the idea.

Otherwise, we are taking back California, Texas, Nevada and Colorado, Keep Utah and Florida. We don't do well in hurricanes or snow.

[carole]

Marigold whether there is truth in what you say or not, could you please use a little more tact in this thread, i did not start this thread so it could end up like this, now it is just becoming tacky and offensive to people and not informative at all,there are ways of saying things,without causing people to become upset.

[blue]

No surprise to hear that.

Her point and how she made it are very different things.:rolleyes:

[blue]

Otherwise, we are taking back California, Texas, Nevada and Colorado, Keep Utah and Florida. We don't do well in hurricanes or snow.

BS! Working in construction, Ive come across many Mexicans that do quite well here.

[kitten645]

"Yes We Can-Can what?"


Just for the record, this is what Obama believes "Yes We Can"

"But in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been
anything false about hope. For when we have faced down impossible
odds; when we've been told that we're not ready, or that we shouldn't
try, or that we can't, generations of Americans have responded with a
simple creed that sums up the spirit of a people.

Yes we can.

It was a creed written into the founding documents that declared the
destiny of a nation.

Yes we can.

It was whispered by slaves and abolitionists as they blazed a trail
toward freedom through the darkest of nights.

Yes we can.

It was sung by immigrants as they struck out from distant shores and
pioneers who pushed westward against an unforgiving wilderness.

Yes we can.

It was the call of workers who organized; women who reached for the
ballot; a President who chose the moon as our new frontier; and a King who took us to the mountaintop and pointed the way to the Promised Land.

Yes we can to justice and equality. Yes we can to opportunity and
prosperity. Yes we can heal this nation. Yes we can repair this
world. Yes we can.

And so tomorrow, as we take this campaign South and West; as we learn
that the struggles of the textile worker in Spartanburg are not so
different than the plight of the dishwasher in Las Vegas; that the
hopes of the little girl who goes to a crumbling school in Dillon are
the same as the dreams of the boy who learns on the streets of LA; we
will remember that there is something happening in America; that we
are not as divided as our politics suggests; that we are one people;
we are one nation; and together, we will begin the next great chapter
in America's story with three words that will ring from coast to
coast; from sea to shining sea - Yes. We. Can"

I also like a quote from earlier in the speach where he said "We can disagree without being disagreeable." I think that's far better than agreeing to disagree. :)

[blue]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QZFVGQDWL._AA240_.jpg

[blue]

that the
hopes of the little girl who goes to a crumbling school in Dillon are
the same as the dreams of the boy who learns on the streets of LA;

Is this why his daughters go to private schools?

[RICHARD]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QZFVGQDWL._AA240_.jpg

Thank you!

"Yes we can" is a pile of warm steaming puckey that only BTB can make happen, because he is a cartoon. What BO believes in, and what he can make happen are two different things.


"Yes we can" is a media/modern phenomenon, the humanity that is thought to have utter the phrase was more worried about being caught and subject to the laws of the day-"Yes we can" was more "Hope we aren't caught".

I want everyone to be able to afford their lifestyles and have enough income to live without worry. Who is the bigger AH? A stupid Am-Mex or the president elect? When he makes things 'happen' PM me, I will publically apologize to you.
All in all, it's just a speech. There has not been one major U.S. Politician that has made any difference in race relations in the past 50 years.

Dude.
YOU have seen the guys that bust arse at the 'site'; They are the 'sign language' workers who shake their heads "yes" and do what is pantomined to them-I remember what a college basketball coach said about athletes that had Hispanic roots. Paraphrased here-"I wish they had more height, They have heart, but aren't tall enough."

BO's riding on the coat tails of any and all movements for equality or human rights is nothing but political horseshiat. It's the same ride the Jackson and Sharpton have taken for the last 25 years. If they were humble and honest about gaining equality for the 'downtrodden', we would not be having this conversation. To pin the hopes on one person to end years of hate and social/race oppression is too funny to even comment on.

I have a better chance of pulling flying monkeys out of my urethra than the incoming president has of making things all 'sugar and spice' after 150 years of stupidity...

What I believe will fill volumes of fiction. I guess I can be president now?

[blue]

"Yes we can" is a media/modern phenomenon, the humanity that is thought to have utter the phrase was more worried about being caught and subject to the laws of the day-"Yes we can" was more "Hope we aren't caught".

From 1972.

http://www.geocities.com/duffy7836/CesarChavezMP.jpg

[Marigold2]

Some facts to support those horrible racist remarks.,
I am also the granddaughter of immigrants.
I am the daughter of immigrants.
I was an immigrant for over two years.
I bore a child in another land.
My entire family is from another country.
My mother was in concentration camp. I am not a racist, these are the facts below. Hope it's not too confusing.


I am speechless at the racism of this remark. This is deeply offending on so many levels.

You think the war in Iraq is costing us too much?

Boy, am I confused. I have been hammered with the propaganda that it is the Iraq war and the war on terror that is bankrupting us. I now find that to be RIDICULOUS. Read on...

I hope the following 14 reasons are forwarded over and over again until they are read so many times that the reader gets sick of reading them. I have included the URL's for verification of all the following facts.

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year by state governments.
Verify at: http://tinyurl.com/zob77 (http://tinyurl.com/zob77)
2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://www.cis (http://www.cis/).org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://wwwcis (http://wwwcis/).org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English!
Verify at: http://transcripts.CNN.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.HTML (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.HTML)
5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
Verify at: http://transcripts (http://transcripts/).cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html (http://cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)
6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)
7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)
8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
Verify at: http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html (http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html)
9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html)
10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html)
11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and
marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border.
Verify at: Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl (http://tinyurl/).com/t9sht
12. The National Policy Institute, 'estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.'
Verify at: http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf (http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf)
13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin.
Verify at: http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm (http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm)
14. 'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States .'
Verify at: http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml (http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml)
The total cost is a whopping $338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.

Are we THAT stupid?

[caseysmom]

Marigold, Did you read the full CNN transcript? Lets look at option 10...did you find the information in the transcript? It did not seem out of context to you? Perhaps you are having trouble grasping the quote that this was taken from?

Oh and about 5 of your links are invalid...hope thats not too complicated to comprehend. You really did your homework. Might want to actually read what you cut and paste next time.

[Marigold2]

Oh pooh, yes 10 is a mixup. Tried to do my best but it's late and some of these links are old research. I am not perfect but I do have some good and accurate facts here. You might not like what you read or what it says about humans as a whole but it is not racist and it's not bias. It's just the ugly truth. Wish it wasn't so.

[caseysmom]

Oh pooh, yes 10 is a mixup. Tried to do my best but it's late and some of these links are old research. I am not perfect but I do have some good and accurate facts here. You might not like what you read or what it says about humans as a whole but it is not racist and it's not bias. It's just the ugly truth. Wish it wasn't so.

Its a bunch of B.S. and if you don't realize that I pity you. FIVE of your links are INVALID. The CNN quotes are out of context....give me one thing that is left?

[blue]

Its a bunch of B.S. and if you don't realize that I pity you. FIVE of your links are INVALID. The CNN quotes are out of context....give me one thing that is left?

8 out of the 14 links and points seem to still be valid.

[Lady's Human]

My issue with the comments made by Marigold are simple. The immigration stats cited in the various articles cover illegal immigration, not Mexican illegal immigration.

There are Chinese, Mexican, Salvadoran, Columbian, Kenyan, etc.. illegal immigrants.

It is NOT a problem which lies solely with one country, and to paint it as such is disingenuous at best.

[caseysmom]

8 out of the 14 links and points seem to still be valid.

Honestly can you point me to one? Everything I have found is wrong.

[blue]

Honestly can you point me to one? Everything I have found is wrong.

Then how could you honestly say only 1 was taken out of context?

Please point out how the remaining 8 are false.

[caseysmom]

Then how could you honestly say only 1 was taken out of context?

Please point out how the remaining 8 are false.

Every quote I have looked at from on the CNN site it wrong or out of context. It is being quoted out of context or taken out of context, just saying give me one that we can debate...that you think it valid, because I cannot find one, I am being honest and not trying to be combative at all. Marigold's posts have always been far from factual IMO.

Edited to add, at the time of my original post I found one out of context and 5 bad links. Since then I tried to find one valid and have had no luck. Didn't want to make this a huge homework project on my part!

[blue]

Didn't want to make this a huge homework project on my part!

Way to make your case.

[caseysmom]

Way to make your case.

So take my last sentence after I did quite a bit of research and take it out of context, you are really not an intellectual debater....where is Lady's Human when I need a mature person to debate. At least he sticks to the facts.

[caseysmom]

Way to make your case.

Way to deflect the whole thing so you have to do NO work and show me NO valid points, very mature.

[caseysmom]

crickets...chirp chirp like I thought...out for the night.

[blue]

So take my last sentence after I did quite a bit of research and take it out of context, you are really not an intellectual debater....where is Lady's Human when I need a mature person to debate. At least he sticks to the facts.

You did not back up anything you said, so again you did not make your case against Marigolds cut and paste.

Point 1, is not a CNN transcript, where is FAIR wrong or taken out of context?

Point 2, if you copied and pasted the link (http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html) you would find it is not invalid. Now tell me how that was taken out of context.

Point 3, is the same link (http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html) as Point 2. Im sure you can show how it was taken out of context a second time.

Since Im sure you are going to point out where CNN was taken out of context for us Im going to skip those and concede the PDF downloads as well.

Im too beat to copy and paste the sources for Point 13 to check its validity.

Point 14 is the only link that is not valid.

ETA:

crickets...chirp chirp like I thought...out for the night.

Sorry I was looking at the links you said were invalid.

Since only 1 link returned an error, how did you come up with the claim that 5 are invalid?

[blue]

crickets...chirp chirp like I thought...out for the night.

I can wait till next evening for your response. I may have ADD but I have learned patience.

[Marigold2]

Boy you guys really get upset about this. I looked up a ton of links on immigration because all of my family is from Europe. English isn't even my first language.
Perhaps everyone could look up their own links and stop name calling. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: The only reason I posted this is because of all the name calling being thrown at me. I only mentioned the Mexicans because it is easier for them to sneek over here then any other people and because there are more of them then any other. If any one can show a couple or even one postive outcome of them coming here please post that. This is after all a global world and what effects us effects people in every land on this earth. No man is an island.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Way to deflect the whole thing so you have to do NO work and show me NO valid points, very mature.


You want a valid point? Try this one.

How much do these illegal immigrants PAY in taxes? Why is that not cited? When they work state and local taxes are deducted from their paychecks. FICA - social security they will never be able to collect - is dedcuted from their paychecks. When they shop they pay sales tax.

For any of this to have any validity or logic -- that must be included. How much do they add to the economy -- value from the strawberries they pick and the toilets they clean?

This is one-sided. Let's hear the other half of the equation.

Oh and Marigold.....when you say something as ugly and offensive as "drop a kid" about anyone -- what do you expect?

[carole]

can we please get back to the original topic thank you.

Please Marigold can you choose your words more wisely, there are ways of saying things and getting your point across without offending other Pters, thank you.

[caseysmom]

You did not back up anything you said, so again you did not make your case against Marigolds cut and paste.

Point 1, is not a CNN transcript, where is FAIR wrong or taken out of context?

Point 2, if you copied and pasted the link (http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html) you would find it is not invalid. Now tell me how that was taken out of context.

Point 3, is the same link (http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html) as Point 2. Im sure you can show how it was taken out of context a second time.

Since Im sure you are going to point out where CNN was taken out of context for us Im going to skip those and concede the PDF downloads as well.

Im too beat to copy and paste the sources for Point 13 to check its validity.

Point 14 is the only link that is not valid.

ETA:


Sorry I was looking at the links you said were invalid.

Since only 1 link returned an error, how did you come up with the claim that 5 are invalid?


Point 1, Marigolds states the 11 to 22 billion is for illegal immigrants. The article states this is due to all immigration, once again an incorrect quote.

point 2 and 3, the costs she states are cost overall, not just illegal immigration, did you read the article further to read the clarification, if its too hard I will copy and paste it:

A Complex Fiscal Picture
Welfare use. Our findings show that many of the preconceived notions about the fiscal impact of illegal households turn out to be inaccurate. In terms of welfare use, receipt of cash assistance programs tends to be very low, while Medicaid use, though significant, is still less than for other households. Only use of food assistance programs is significantly higher than that of the rest of the population. Also, contrary to the perceptions that illegal aliens don't pay payroll taxes, we estimate that more than half of illegals work "on the books." On average, illegal households pay more than $4,200 a year in all forms of federal taxes. Unfortunately, they impose costs of $6,950 per household.



Social Security and Medicare. Although we find that the net effect of illegal households is negative at the federal level, the same is not true for Social Security and Medicare. We estimate that illegal households create a combined net benefit for these two programs in excess of $7 billion a year, accounting for about 4 percent of the total annual surplus in these two programs. However, they create a net deficit of $17.4 billion in the rest of the budget, for a total net loss of $10.4 billion. Nonetheless, their impact on Social Security and Medicare is unambiguously positive. Of course, if the Social Security totalization agreement with Mexico signed in June goes into effect, allowing illegals to collect Social Security, these calculations would change.





Carole, I am really sorry about this thread but all of Marigold's instances are just wrong.

[blue]

Carol, sorry for my part in this highjack.

And Casseysmom, Marigold didnt type anything, that was a cut and paste. You could have played nice by pointing out how the links were taken out of context, but you chose not to for reasons we can only speculate.

[caseysmom]

Carol, sorry for my part in this highjack.

And Casseysmom, Marigold didnt type anything, that was a cut and paste. You could have played nice by pointing out how the links were taken out of context, but you chose not to for reasons we can only speculate.

Marigold did not do this research herself. She cut and pasted the whole thing, the 14 things off of the internet. This whole thing is all over the internet by folks trying to spread mistruths. She should research these things before spreading them.

I don't play nice with bigots, I stand up to them.

[blue]

Marigold did not do this research herself. She cut and pasted the whole thing, the 14 things off of the internet. This whole thing is all over the internet by folks trying to spread mistruths. She should research these things before spreading them.

I don't play nice with bigots, I stand up to them.

You would have done a better job of making your stand by showwing the lack of context the 14 points tried to make, you chose not to, but instead targetted Marigold and then myself.

Illegal immigration is another issue why I couldnt vote for either canidate.

ES's argument only holds water for illegals who have illegally obtained SSCs and not those that work under the table.

[Edwina's Secretary]

ES's argument only holds water for illegals who have illegally obtained SSCs and not those that work under the table.

No Blue. You are wrong. Even those who "work under the table" (I suspect you mean "get paid under the table" but whatever...) pay sales tax. Also there is the value to the economy of the work performed -- either under the table or on it.

[blue]

No Blue. You are wrong. Even those who "work under the table" (I suspect you mean "get paid under the table" but whatever...) pay sales tax. Also there is the value to the economy of the work performed -- either under the table or on it.

Wrong. Not every city and state in the US has a sales tax. I do most of my shopping outside of the cities tax zone or in Anchorage to pay as little sales tax as posible. The value they give to an economy also detracts from it by lowwering wages for the type work they perform.

By working under the table they arent coverred by workmans comp insurance or any of the safeties legal workers are coverred by.

[carole]

hey guys have you finished arguing the point yet? I guess someone is right and someone is wrong, or are you all right, gosh i don't know i am totally confused, and would like to move on if possible thanks.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Wrong. Not every city and state in the US has a sales tax. I do most of my shopping outside of the cities tax zone or in Anchorage to pay as little sales tax as posible. The value they give to an economy also detracts from it by lowwering wages for the type work they perform.

By working under the table they arent coverred by workmans comp insurance or any of the safeties legal workers are coverred by.

I am just guessing here....but many of these folks live in places other Anchorage. And not everyone has your opportunity to avoid paying taxes.

I am quite well aware of the lack of protection when working off the books. What does that have to do with the discussion?

Sorry Carole.

[carole]

I am as guilty as anyone for hijacking my own thread, changing the subject from time to time, so that is fine,and hey if you want to thrash it out,i guess it is up to you guys,if we can get back on topic be good though,not holding my breath lol.:)actually i am totally lost on the subject now,ignorance is bliss sometimes. lol

[blue]

I am just guessing here....but many of these folks live in places other Anchorage. And not everyone has your opportunity to avoid paying taxes.

I am quite well aware of the lack of protection when working off the books. What does that have to do with the discussion?

Sorry Carole.

Anchorage and Alaska are not the only city and state that does not have an income tax so quit pretending they are.

A majority of the people who work off the books are here illegally, unless you can show me otherwise.

*EDIT* If you keep reading, I put my foot in my mouth on this post. Alaskan residents do not pay a state sales or income tax, though some cities and boroughs have sales taxes there are no Alaskan Income or Sales taxes.

ES was talking about Sales Taxes and I posted income taxes, and for that I am deaply sorry.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Anchorage and Alaska are not the only city and state that does not have an income tax so quit pretending they are.

A majority of the people who work off the books are here illegally, unless you can show me otherwise.

Blue...I was talking SALES TAX. That is different from income tax. I wouldn't dream of pretending that there aren't more places without income tax. Florida I believe does not have one...maybe Nevada?

In the little bit of Marigold's quotes I read...it said something like half of illegals work off the books. But that is different from what you just said. Do I know what portion of those who work off the books that is? No, but what does that mean?

But I am done. You are confusing me. Sales tax/income tax...worker comp/working under the table/hafl of this is not half of that/pretending.

I can't keep what you are saying straight. Plus my turkey is almost done.

[Marigold2]

There is tons of info out there on this subject. As for dropping kids, that is where the term anchor came from. Dropping anchor. I didn't make it up I only used a common term. As I said it's not pretty but it is true. These people will do anything to stay here in this country and if having a baby helps, they will do it. They almost surely risked their life to come here and having a baby is no big deal if it means staying here and not having to go back.
The impact that uneducated people have on a country is difficult to put into terms. Not only does it have to do with lack of education or skills and jobs but the crime rate is increased as well. It is so with any one of low education, they have to eat somehow and if they can't do so by getting a job they will do it another way, that is human nature regardless of where you come from. A child that has uneducated parents is often more likely to be uneducated themselves and stay that way, it's a horrible cycle. Many people on welfare stay that way and their children and grandchildren continue this sad way of life. Generation after generation taking, taking and not giving back to society, it's sad.
If you don't pay into Medicare I don't believe you should recieve it.

Illegal Immigration Costs California Over Ten Billion Annually

State's "cheap labor" costs average household $1,183 a year

By Robert Longley (http://usgovinfo.about.com/mbiopage.htm), About.com

See More About:


illegal immigration (http://usgovinfo.about.com/lr/illegal_immigration/41635/1/)
immigration reform (http://usgovinfo.about.com/lr/immigration_reform/41635/2/)
u.s. citizenship (http://usgovinfo.about.com/lr/u.s._citizenship/41635/3/)

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Dateline: December, 2004
In hosting America's largest population of illegal immigrants, California bears a huge cost to provide basic human services for this fast growing, low-income segment of its population. A new study from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examines the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concludes that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year.
Among the key finding of the report are that the state's already struggling K-12 education system spends approximately $7.7 billion a year to school the children of illegal aliens who now constitute 15 percent of the student body. Another $1.4 billion of the taxpayers' money goes toward providing health care to illegal aliens and their families, the same amount that is spent incarcerating illegal aliens criminals.
"California's addiction to 'cheap' illegal alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state's shrinking middle class tax base," stated Dan Stein, President of FAIR. "Most Californians, who have seen their taxes increase while public services deteriorate, already know the impact that mass illegal immigration is having on their communities, but even they may be shocked when they learn just how much of a drain illegal immigration has become."
The Costs of Illegal Immigration to Californians focuses on three specific program areas because those were the costs examined by researchers from the Urban Institute in 1994. Looking at the costs of education, health care and incarceration for illegal aliens in 1994, the Urban Institute estimated that California was subsidizing illegal immigrants to the tune of about $1.1 billion. The enormous rise in the costs of illegal immigrants over the intervening ten years is due to the rapid growth in illegal residents. It is reasonable to expect those costs to continue to soar if action is not taken to turn the tide.
"Nineteen ninety-four was the same year that California voters rebelled and overwhelmingly passed Proposition 187, which sought to limit liability for mass illegal immigration. Since then, state and local governments have blatantly ignored the wishes of the voters and continued to shell out publicly financed benefits on illegal aliens," said Stein. "Predictably, the costs of illegal immigration have grown geometrically, while the state has spiraled into a fiscal crisis that has brought it near bankruptcy.
"Nothing could more starkly illustrate the very high costs of ‘cheap labor' than California's current situation," continued Stein. "A small number of powerful interests in the state reap the benefits, while the average native-born family in California gets handed a nearly $1,200 a year bill." The Federation for American Immigration Reform (http://www.fairus.org/) is a nonprofit, public-interest, membership organization advocating immigration policy reforms that would tighten border security and prevent illegal immigration, while reducing legal immigration levels from about 1.1 million persons per year to 300,000 per year.

Also See:

U.S. Citizenship Test to Change (http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aanewtest.htm)Bush Tightens Down on Immigration (http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa103001a.htm)INS Absorbed by Homeland Security (http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa030103a.htm)


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[carole]

Marigold i think you have made your point,loud and clear to us all.

[blue]

I can't keep what you are saying straight. Plus my turkey is almost done.

If you would quit changing the direction of your arguments, mine would be more clear to you.

I hope your turkey was moist and very tasty.

*EDIT* I did mean Sales Tax when I posted Income Tax, I really have to appologise for the confusion. I could go and edit my earlier post accordingly but that wouldnt be fair.

Again I hope you had a great Thanksgiving.