Firearms. Yea or Nay?

[blue]

Before I start another thread and posting pics.

What does PetTalk say about guns? Yea or Nay.

[Catty1]

This battle is going on in Canada...a gun registry was established a couple of years ago, and was a total dud as far as the administrative work...not efficient at all.

The shootings in our city, as in many others, are done by criminals who get the guns illegally. One recent incident (see General for story on the young man blinded) was caused by a shooter who had been int court before, and was under order to not possess firearms.

JMO - Gun control punishes the lawful, and does nothing to stop the criminal from using guns.

[blue]

JMO - Gun control punishes the lawful, and does nothing to stop the criminal from using guns.

Ill chime in again in the morning but I kinda like you.

[Karen]

It is an okay topic - the Dog House is for anything controversial. As long as you remember that this is Pet Talk, and stay polite and respectful of people even if they have differing opinions, the topic is okay to discuss.

There have been threads about hunting before, do a search, and you'll see many threads. Read a few before posting, just so you don't duplicate a discussion that has already happened.

[kt_luvs_kitties]

I have a gun (45). I like it...

I would want it if someone broke into my house...

I dont want to use it, but I would;)

[RICHARD]

I say crispy, not limp!

And is it really Canadian?:confused:

[Catty1]

My dad was a Mountie for 20 years. At the time he joined (1948) the standard issue was a Colt .45 (I believe it's now a .38)

He was in Air Division, so was away a lot. When my sister and I quite young - maybe 6 or so? - he showed us the top drawer of his dresser where the gun was kept. He was adamently clear that we were NEVER to touch it UNLESS someone broke in while he was away. The bullets were loose - I don't think the gun was loaded - and he showed me how to hold it properly and what to do (gun WAS unloaded for this!). That thing weighed a TON - but I was able to hold it on my own.

I guess it made sense - if Mom was grabbed, one of us had to help out.

We never had to use it, thank God.

A certain law came in, late 90's, and all handguns were to be handed in to the gov't. Dad had died in 1996 - and this gun was a part of what he had done and who he was - it meant something to our family, and not as a weapon.

The law was changed to read that these guns could be kept if they were deactivated, and that this process was documented and sent to the gov't.

Good thing we never had to grab an inactive gun to fight someone who had stolen theirs. :rolleyes:

Thanks, Dad. :) {{{hugs}}}:love:

[moosmom]

I have a Rugar .357 Magnum from when I was with the Auxillary State Police. It is locked and loaded. I am a revolver expert, according to the State Police. As long as the Constitution says it's within my rights to have a gun, I will keep my little friend handy but safe.

Criminals can get guns whenever they want one so I don't think that gun control is going to do any good.

[blue]

Im not a hunter so my guns are for personal protection and target shooting. There are some hunters who diasprove of my choice in rifles.

[cassiesmom]

I wish there were fewer guns on the streets of Chicago being used to shoot people. There's no easy answer for the issue of gun violence, at least in Chicago. It is getting more attention because of Chicago's bid for the Olympic Games and because of the number of children and teenagers being shot. Plus, the shooters' guns have more power than police officers' guns do. This past spring they tried to arm the police with more powerful guns.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread351814/pg1
It is definitely a many-faceted problem.

[blue]

I wish there were fewer guns on the streets of Chicago being used to shoot people. There's no easy answer for the issue of gun violence, at least in Chicago. It is getting more attention because of Chicago's bid for the Olympic Games and because of the number of children and teenagers being shot. Plus, the shooters' guns have more power than police officers' guns do. This past spring they tried to arm the police with more powerful guns.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread351814/pg1
It is definitely a many-faceted problem.

The problem in Chicago is that the criminals have no problem arming themselves and the law abiding citizens cant arm themselves.

[jennielynn1970]

What's with the bacon and pirate choice??? I so don't get that one.

[blue]

What's with the bacon and pirate choice??? I so don't get that one.

On Pirate4x4 no poll is valid without a choice for bacon, I hate seeing a poll without it.

[jennielynn1970]

Ok, that is just weird. Why bacon? Is Pirate4x4 an odd site?

[blue]

Ok, that is just weird. Why bacon? Is Pirate4x4 an odd site?

Bacon is awesome for starters. I guess off roaders and firearm enthusiests have an affinity for the pork product known as bacon.

And since this is a firearms thread here are some firearms.

http://www.geocities.com/duffy7836/FA005.jpg

[DJFyrewolf36]

Bacon is awesome for starters. I guess off roaders and firearm enthusiests have an affinity for the pork product known as bacon.

And since this is a firearms thread here are some firearms.

http://www.geocities.com/duffy7836/FA005.jpg

Nice...:D

[jennielynn1970]

Can I just take the bacon?? ;) The one show on Food Network made it where they put brown sugar on top and baked it. I wanted to dive through the screen.

[Grace]

Blue, have you ever fired one of these - I have

http://matthrivnak.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/uzi.jpg

[blue]

Deep fried Bacon, eggs, and susage.

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq237/bishop042/IMG_0120.jpg

The full thread, link (http://gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?t=344574).

[blue]

Blue, have you ever fired one of these - I have

http://matthrivnak.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/uzi.jpg

I allmost bought 1 in 2002 full auto, never fired 1. The 1 you fired was it full auto or semi?

[sparks19]

LOL Blue... you know my stance on this :D

I sucked with this... need some practice... give me a break it was my first time out with a shot gun (even if it was a youth model to accomodate my short arms lol)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/sparks1919/2nd%20set%20of%20pics/shotgunTanya1.jpg
but I ROCKED with this... also my first time
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/sparks1919/2nd%20set%20of%20pics/Tanyarifle1-2.jpg
My very first target :)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/sparks1919/2nd%20set%20of%20pics/Tanyatarget.jpg

[blue]

Sparks, I have an AK47 that you could rock with. The stock is too short for me but I keep it as it is for others to shoot.

A 10 or 11 year old kid was hitting a playing card at 300 yards with the rifle. Thats some good shooting with an AK.

[Grace]

I allmost bought 1 in 2002 full auto, never fired 1. The 1 you fired was it full auto or semi?

Semi. I only did it once, and it was fantastic. My husband had a FFL at the time. When he gave up the license - way too expensive - he donated the gun to the local police department.

[sparks19]

Sparks, I have an AK47 that you could rock with. The stock is too short for me but I keep it as it is for others to shoot.

A 10 or 11 year old kid was hitting a playing card at 300 yards with the rifle. Thats some good shooting with an AK.

LOL I'd love to give a shot ... no pun intended :p

[blue]

Semi. I only did it once, and it was fantastic. My husband had a FFL at the time. When he gave up the license - way too expensive - he donated the gun to the local police department.

The 3 AK clones I have are all semi auto, the Uzi I could have gotten was full auto. Even with the cost of ammo today it would still be a fun gun to have.

[blue]

LOL I'd love to give a shot ... no pun intended :p

If you and Puck ever make it up here, youll get your shot.

[sparks19]

If you and Puck ever make it up here, youll get your shot.

awesome lol... that would be a heck of a trip :D

[blue]

awesome lol... that would be a heck of a trip :D

Im pretty sure I can borrow another big raft so all the dogs and Hannah can do a river trip as well.

[Kfamr]

Turkey bacon, pls.

[blue]

Turkey bacon, pls.

That dosent count as bacon.

[Lady's Human]

If it's a semi-auto that looks like an AK, please call it what it is.
There are far, far too many people with no understanding of US gun laws who will grab statements like that and say "SEE!!!! Anyone can buy an AK-47"......

With no understanding of what it is.

There's enough misrepresentation of firearms in the media, no need to add to it.
To those who mightbe reading this thread and don't know, ACTUAL AK-47's are relatively rare, and you need a damned expensive license to buy one.

[jennielynn1970]

I don't really understand the need for the AK47s and other guns like them being needed in the average home. Blue's picture kinda freaked me out. Wouldn't want to live next door to that arsenal.

I can understand a handgun for protection if that's what you want it for, but why all the other big guns?? I'm not saying like a rifle you shoot a deer with, but the assault rifles. Assault Rifle. Kinda gives the impression of exactly what it is.

There are just way too many guns on the streets, and way too many easy ways for them to get into the hands of people who want to use them against other people.

I remember watching "Bowling for Columbine" and it was one of those mid western states or somewhere out there, where if you opened up a bank account with a certain amount of money, you got a free gun of your choice. I about fell over viewing that. What the heck kind of institution has that kind of "free gift when opening an account"?

I want to see less guns on the streets (we have way too many here in Allentown), stricter gun laws, and tougher repercussions for those who are found with them and don't have any license to carry them. There need to be more restrictions with the licenses and what guns are allowed to be carried as protection as well. AK47s, and guns like that, are not in that category, in my opinion.


Turkey bacon qualifies in my book as bacon. It tastes just as good. :)

[beeniesmom]

Thanks jenn-librarian. I agree with you.
Glad someone else shares my opinion.

With the exception of the bacon part... :P

[RICHARD]

LH,

Thanks!

The 'Automat Kallishikov' is the daddy to the AKS and the later 74 models.

The russians designated their rifles (and tanks) with the year they were introduced/produced.

The whole AK 'aura' is carried on by stupid rappers who, are smarter than we give them credit for, they know which is the dangerous end.

Now AKs are made on some 10 countries and have different designations according to where they are manufactured.

I was watching a program on assault rifles and the speaker said that in some third world countries an AK style rifle can be made of parts from different plant/countries-that is how tight the tolerances and universal the model is.

The Kalishnikov story is very interesting - in arms history.

Did you know that there is a likeness of an AK on one African country's flag?:confused:

[DJFyrewolf36]

Thanks from me too LH for pointing that out. I know people in Nevada who have actual AKs and aren't letting them go because they got them before the era of licences and the like.

Kind of scary knowing the people who DO have them lol.

I find target shooting fun myself. My dad has quite a collection and he uses them for sport target shooting, not home defense. He has a 45 revolver with a scope (yes, a scope) that has been used to hunt large game that he would never fire during a home invasion. The risk of hitting some innocent bystander is too great with a weapon that size. He has the firearm for its collectors appeal and for the fun of shooting it (and probibly the fun of knowing people can hear the darn thing for miles lol)

Shooting doesn't have to mean killing something, even though thats what most people sadly believe.

[smokey the elder]

The biggest problem with firearms is their misuse, but as I've said before, almost anything can be misused to harm someone. I personally have shot a rifle a few times, at a range. I thought it was loud and smelly (and I was a TERRIBLE shot!:D) But, I think, at least in the USA, it would be very difficult to achieve the low level of guns on the street that seems to exist in the UK and other places. Seems that the rules on the books put both cops and law abiding citizens at a disadvantage. Just my 2 cents!

[Puckstop31]

Dan my boy!!! Whats happen-in? LOL

You and your AK's.... I just never got into AKs. Probably because the only AKs I ever fired were ones we captured from bad guys and those were very poorly maintained. However, they WERE very poorly maintained, yet continued to function. If I treated my M-4 like that, it would go 'click' and not bang. Very bad when you need it most.

Uzi.. Fired one a few times. Both semi and auto. Meh. It was accurate, for a sub gun. Great for CQB, but would not be worth much on the battlefield. but also remember, I was/am a tanker. Anything smaller than .50cal is just a toy.


My $.02 on 'gun control'. Gun control solves nothing. CRIMINAL control solves most things.

Glad to see ya here Dan. I give ya 2-3 weeks till you get a spankin from the mods. ;)

[RICHARD]

Does anyone remember the North Hollywood Shootout at the Bank Of America?

I drove by there the day afer the shooting and you would not believe the mess from the stray shots.

One pretty "impressive" sight was a light standard/pole- The poured concrete type with the steel rebar running thru it- that had been hit with a bullet.
.
The chunk missing was about the size of my fist-I wear a Large-XL glove- and the steel shell around a payphone had a nice hole thru it.

Amazing that not more people were hurt.

Guns are tools and are a part of life.

-------------
Jenn,

The Bowling for Columbine movie was horse shiat. The customer was given a certificate for a gun, not actually handed one on the property.

If you walked down the street in your neighborhood you probably live closer to an aresenal than you think. I have some guns in my house and access to more that belonged to my dad. I don't think about them and don't pull them out for any purpose except to shoot them and it's been years since that happened.

I love the look of guns and probably would collect them just to have them. I would love a Belgian FN FAL, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I do have a BIL who was a cop, mind you, and I would never trust him with any type of gun. That dude also collect 'German' war memorabilia. Creepy when he pulls out the "Hitler Youth Knife" to show you.:rolleyes:

It's not the gun, It's the moron on the trigger.

Also, I don't know how the laws have changed since, but you could by a semi auto rifle, purchase a "trigger kit" from another source and with a few tools and knowledge of guns turn it into a machine gun. THe same thing with a .50 caliber Barrett rifle. You could buy the parts to it and either put it together yourself or have a gunsmith hook you up.

There are ways around any gun laws and it's all a matter of who owns them.

[Twisterdog]

It's not the gun, It's the moron on the trigger.


Absolutely.

I grew up in a house full of guns. My dad was an avid marksman, collector and hunter. They were a part of life, and we never gave them a second thought. They were tools, to be used by adults. We would have no more thought of playing with one of dad's guns than we would have thought of playing with the lawnmower, the car or the oven. If we wanted to shoot a gun, he took us out in the desert and taught us to do it safely and properly.

If I decide I want to kill you, I can certainly do it with a gun. I can also do it with a kitchen knife, a car, a pillow, a hammer, a rock or my bare hands. The tool is not the killer, the person using the tool is the killer. How many people are killed each year in this country by motor vehicles vs. firearms? Hmmm ...

We have a vast collection of guns. Of course, they are locked up in a gun safe. My father passed away in February, and we divided his collection. He had everything from a little chrome .32, to an antique Colt .45 that was his great uncle's when he was the sheriff of Lubbock Texas, to foreign assault rifles, black powder, cap and ball, shotguns ... you name it. We haven't even had time to sort through it all yet.

[jennielynn1970]

-------------
Jenn,

The Bowling for Columbine movie was horse shiat. The customer was given a certificate for a gun, not actually handed one on the property.

If you walked down the street in your neighborhood you probably live closer to an aresenal than you think. I have some guns in my house and access to more that belonged to my dad. I don't think about them and don't pull them out for any purpose except to shoot them and it's been years since that happened.



There are ways around any gun laws and it's all a matter of who owns them.

Gotta disagree with the movie being "shiat". I thought it was very well done. I've actually liked most of his movies. I know, I know... you either love Michael Moore, or you hate him. I happen to love him.

I know there are a lot more guns in my neighborhood than I'd like to even think about. I belong to the neighborhood association, and I get the emails about the "problem" houses and such in the area. Way too many for my peace of mind. Mostly they are transient families who won't be there next year, but then again, who will move in after them. It's those types of landlords that just rent to anyone to get their rent money. They don't give a crap.


It's gotta come down to laws and who is allowed to own a gun, types of gun depending on where you live and what you'd actually need it for, and how many.

I think there needs to be stricter controls on it all. I also think that we need to stop pandering to the criminals and actually lock them up. Stop serving them gourmet cuisine, and funding their college degrees. That pisses me off like crazy. They're criminals and should be treated as such, not like they're Paris Hilton in jail. When did the people running the jails forget that these are people who committed some pretty hideous crimes.

I'm all for "rehabilitation", but not to this extent.

[jennielynn1970]

Thanks jenn-librarian. I agree with you.
Glad someone else shares my opinion.

With the exception of the bacon part... :P

Well, nothing beats REAL bacon, lol, but I can handle turkey bacon if I must. I did date an Egyptian who freaked out about pork products in the house.

It wasn't till I wanted him to get lost that I would actually come home and say "YUMMMMM.... I had the BIGGEST, most AWESOME, BLT HOAGIE at WaWa today, with EXTRA BACON!" and breathe on him for effect. :p ;) He'd get so pissed off with me, he'd refuse to touch me. (DUH! That was the desired goal, lol!)

I may love someone, no matter what their religion, but I've come to the conclusion that I will never give up BACON for anyone!! ;)

[RICHARD]

Gotta disagree with the movie being "shiat". I thought it was very well done. I've actually liked most of his movies. I know, I know... you either love Michael Moore, or you hate him. I happen to love him.

I know there are a lot more guns in my neighborhood than I'd like to even think about.

Gothca.

This is no BS- Here in the San Fernando Valley On New Year's Eve people would GO NUTS shooting off guns. We used to have a patio with that corrugated plastic stuff for a roof and you could hear the buckshot from the shot guns hitting the roof.

Police on patrol would all go to the underpasses of the freeways to hide out and to keep from getting the residual "lead rain" from dropping on their head.

In the last 6 years the shooting has disapperered to literally zilch! Now there are laws, a great PSA campaign and more people are calling into the 911 system to report AHs shooting into the air!

Laws really do work. There were literally hundreds of people shooting and this is about 8 blocks from the police station.

I am not going to say that it sounded like a war zone-I hate that stupid expression that and the fact I have never been in a war- But there were people with some REALLY HEAVY DUTY artillery in the area!:eek:

[carole]

I can only speak from my point of view in my own country, you cannot have guns here, even our police are not armed, they have tazers.etc and you can have licenced guns for hunting etc, but that is it, i would NOT like to see everyone able to own a gun,i hope it never comes to my country, although i am beginning to think the police need to be armed, as crime escalates and gets worse.

We have managed all these years without them, i think we can continue to, here's hoping.

[Lady's Human]

I don't really understand the need for the AK47s and other guns like them being needed in the average home. Blue's picture kinda freaked me out. Wouldn't want to live next door to that arsenal.

That picture is all about looks. Looks mean nothing when it comes to weapons. I've owned firearms which could do far more damage than anything in that picture, and they just looked like normal hunting rifles.......which is exactly what they were.

From a Hollywood standpoint, Moore's Movies are very well done, but they are exactly that. Movies. They aren't documentaries, that term would imply there was an attempt at truth behind them.

[blue]

Dan my boy!!! Whats happen-in? LOL

You and your AK's.... I just never got into AKs. Probably because the only AKs I ever fired were ones we captured from bad guys and those were very poorly maintained. However, they WERE very poorly maintained, yet continued to function. If I treated my M-4 like that, it would go 'click' and not bang. Very bad when you need it most.

Exact reason went the AK rout rather then ARs. I trained on the M16A2 at MCRD San Diego, way to picky a rifle. Im sure the M4 and CARs are just as picky. If Stoner put out the Stoner47 I would probably buy one, I have plenty of magazines. I got lucky with my Romanian SARs, all have good straight sights and a good build on USA recievers. Reliability is also the reason my first handgun was a Glock, the S&W .40 is allmost a clone of my Glock my other handgun.


Uzi.. Fired one a few times. Both semi and auto. Meh. It was accurate, for a sub gun. Great for CQB, but would not be worth much on the battlefield. but also remember, I was/am a tanker. Anything smaller than .50cal is just a toy.

A .50 BMG Barret is on my short list.



My $.02 on 'gun control'. Gun control solves nothing. CRIMINAL control solves most things.

Glad to see ya here Dan. I give ya 2-3 weeks till you get a spankin from the mods. ;)

Now They are gonna be watchin me.

[blue]

I don't really understand the need for the AK47s and other guns like them being needed in the average home. Blue's picture kinda freaked me out. Wouldn't want to live next door to that arsenal.

What I have is nothing compared to my neighbors or my friends in Anchorage. Nothing to be afraid of, you are actually safer around legal owners of firearms.


I can understand a handgun for protection if that's what you want it for, but why all the other big guns?? I'm not saying like a rifle you shoot a deer with, but the assault rifles. Assault Rifle. Kinda gives the impression of exactly what it is.

People in other states actualy hunt with AK47 semi auto clones, mine are for the target range and one as my bear gun. I really need to get a Siaga 12 as my river gun but I cant afford them. Also an assault rifle is one that is full auto, what I have are all semi auto.


There are just way too many guns on the streets, and way too many easy ways for them to get into the hands of people who want to use them against other people.

The problem is not the numbers on the street, the problem is too many are on the street illegally.


I remember watching "Bowling for Columbine" and it was one of those mid western states or somewhere out there, where if you opened up a bank account with a certain amount of money, you got a free gun of your choice. I about fell over viewing that. What the heck kind of institution has that kind of "free gift when opening an account"?

Bowling for Columbine is so full of mistruths, misdirections and misleading editting, it shouldnt be taken seriously.


I want to see less guns on the streets (we have way too many here in Allentown), stricter gun laws, and tougher repercussions for those who are found with them and don't have any license to carry them. There need to be more restrictions with the licenses and what guns are allowed to be carried as protection as well. AK47s, and guns like that, are not in that category, in my opinion.

If you get what you want there will be more firearms in the hands of criminals and less in the hands of law abiding citizens.



Turkey bacon qualifies in my book as bacon. It tastes just as good. :)

Its still turkey.

[sparks19]

I think there needs to be stricter controls on it all. I also think that we need to stop pandering to the criminals and actually lock them up. Stop serving them gourmet cuisine, and funding their college degrees. That pisses me off like crazy. They're criminals and should be treated as such, not like they're Paris Hilton in jail. When did the people running the jails forget that these are people who committed some pretty hideous crimes.

I'm all for "rehabilitation", but not to this extent.


Now THIS I can MORE than agree with.

I think we should go back to prison farms. Work their criminal arses to the bone... you wronged society... you better make it up to us by working to provide us a service while you rot in prison... NO TV... bland food.... no "play" time.... You sit in your cell and rot when you aren't working to pay off your debt.

[blue]

Besides its allways good to be prepared.

http://gallery.computingzone.net/d/938-2/zombie2.jpg

[Karen]

Now They are gonna be watchin me.

Now now, we watch everyone. That's what moderators do.

Just stay polite and respectful, and remember that there are children reading this site, and no *thumping* will be needed.

[blue]

Now now, we watch everyone. That's what moderators do.

Just stay polite and respectful, and remember that there are children reading this site, and no *thumping* will be needed.

I actually like your style, if you ever need help...

I have ADD and 2 computors.

[sparks19]

Now now, we watch everyone. That's what moderators do.

Just stay polite and respectful, and remember that there are children reading this site, and no *thumping* will be needed.

Sorry Karen... it wasn't a knock on you. More of an inside joke from another forum we know each other from lol.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Kansas recently passed a law making automatic weapons legal. We already have a concealed weapon law. Now everyone can hide their machine guns in their pants legeally!!!

Stupid law really! Don't need an automatic weapon to kill a deer. :(

[Lady's Human]

Machine guns are tightly controlled by federal law. With few exceptions the federal controls are far, far tighter than a state could ever enforce.

[Puckstop31]

Kansas recently passed a law making automatic weapons legal. We already have a concealed weapon law. Now everyone can hide their machine guns in their pants legeally!!!

Stupid law really! Don't need an automatic weapon to kill a deer. :(

What LH said....

Plus...

Never forget that the 2nd Amendment is not about hunting. It is about the fundamental human right to self defence. Period. It is a bonus that this right also gives us an 'easier' way to harvest our own meat.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

So what's the big difference between a rapid fire automatic weapon or a machine gun? Both can kill far faster than you need for hunting deer!!! :rolleyes:

One of the biggest arguments for guns is hunting animals not for hunting people. Maybe they should pass a law that you have to eat what you kill???

[Puckstop31]

So what's the big difference between a rapid fire automatic weapon or a machine gun? Both can kill far faster than you need for hunting deer!!! :rolleyes:

One of the biggest arguments for guns is hunting animals not for hunting people. Maybe they should pass a law that you have to eat what you kill???


:confused:

I am not trying to be critical, but I think you really do not have a grasp of this issue. You show me this by saying, "So what's the big difference between a rapid fire automatic weapon or a machine gun?" I mean, is there a SLOW firing, automatic weapon? Or do you mean SEMI-automatic. Do you even know the difference? (Again, not being critical, I just want to try and unsderstand where you are coming from, logically.) Let me help...

SEMI-Automatic = Weapon fires one shot with one pull of the trigger and then reloads a fresh cartridge without any manual action by the user.

Automatic = Weapon fires, reloads and continues to fire on a single trigger pull, until trigger is released.

Machine Gun = Generally speaking, a machine gun is a crew served (meaning it takes at least 2 people to properly operate it.) fully automatic and BELT fed weapon.

Assault Rifle = A weapon where you can be set to fire either in SEMI or FULLY automatic mode. (I.e. select fire. A firearm might LOOK like an assault rifle, but rarely is technically one.)

Perhaps you can help me by explaining your position on gun control? What do you believe should be done and WHY.

What do you mean by "One of the biggest arguments for guns is hunting animals not for hunting people." Where do you get that from?


This issue is obviously a very emotional one for a lot of people. Often simply because people do not understand, or have a false understanding of guns. OR, they suffer from hoplophobia, which is a simple and unreasonable fear of guns themselves.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

My position is get rid of all the darn guns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One of the nicest kids in my high school was killed when he and his best friend were messing around with an "unloaded" gun!!! :mad:

I knew a baby whose mother found him chewing on the barrel of a "luger" that his grandfather thought he had put up "where the kid couldn't get it". :mad: Luckily, the gun didn't go off.

I don't care about the different classes of guns so thanks for the lecture but it's not needed or wanted. A gun does just what it was made to do, that is KILL!!!

[Lady's Human]

MOFF, for starters, eliminating all guns is an impossible task. (Okay, not impossible, just extremely unrealistic.)

Second, neither of the situations you list should ever have happened. You don't "screw around" with firearms, obviously the teens weren't mature enough to handle them if that is what they were doing, and a firearm should NEVER be where a baby can get it.

Firearms are tools, nothing more. Hammers, knives, axes, all have killing in their roots. A tool cannot be good or evil. It's the user which makes that choice.

[RICHARD]

You don't "screw around" with firearms, obviously the teens weren't mature enough to handle them if that is what they were doing, and a firearm should NEVER be where a baby can get it.



At a local airshow I was standing at a table where there was a display of weapons that you could touch and get the feel of the them.

They had a few M16s and some other stuff on display.

I asked the soldier at the table for permission to pick up a M16/M203 combo-It's a rilfle w/a grenade launcher attached beneath the barrel. While I had it in my hands, a kid no more than 10-12 years old came up beside me on the left, picked up the other M16 from the table and looked over his right shoulder.

As he turned into the soldier and I, he shouldered the rifle, pointed it at his friend behind him and said something stupid like, POW! As I got over my initial shock I watched the stupid kid put the gun down and run off. I looked at the soldier as we both straightened up and went "WTF just happened?"


Both he and I both knew the guns were not loaded but it was just plain reflex that we both ducked/leaned out of the way. I asked him, 'that didn't just happen, did it?' And he nervously laughed and said somehthing like, "you would not believe some of the stuff that I have seen today!"

I thanked him and told him to 'be careful' and went on my way.

That was a prime example of kids not knowing the power of or messing around with guns. They have no respect for them and think that it's all fun and games.:eek:

[momoffuzzyfaces]

First, I'm sorry I snapped at all of you. Guns are just a sore subject with me.

The boy that was shot was 17. Around here that's plenty old enough to know about guns. Almost every kid was expected to know about them from a young age. Back then hunting was the "in" thing. Guess not every one attended the class.

The gun that the baby well, toddler I guess he was then, was in the top drawer of a desk. Should have been way out of his reach but somehow he managed. After the incident, the grandfater kept the clip to the gun in his car. Not a great help if someone is breaking down a door trying to get into your house. "wait a second, mr burgler, while I run out and load my gun". :rolleyes: Anyway, it got it away from the little one.

Of course, having a gun pointed at my head and the trigger pulled by someone cleaning a "supposidly" unloaded gun myself when I was a youngester, may cloud my opinion on the gun issue. :(

[carole]

Hey i get where you are coming from on this issue, i agree with you, like i said before even our police are not armed ,and i would hate to see the day when everyone could own a gun for protection,i hope i never see it happen in NZ.

[sparks19]

Unfortunately too many parents try to just hide the guns from their kids rather than TEACH them about guns and gun safety and teach them respect for the weapons. Hannah will be taught gun safety and respect all her life on top of being kept out of her reach when not in use. Education is key. You NEVER point a gun at someone or something unless you intend to USE it ... whether you think the gun is loaded or not. That lesson will be drilled into her constantly.

[carole]

Great to see you going to teach Hannah about guns, but wouldn't it be better if you really never had to, it is something I have never had to teach my children, because you cannot own a gun for protection here, but of course you can still have one for hunting purposes,and shooting sports, but you have to be registered,it does not mean that guns are not used for crime here, because they are,but i have never needed to learn my kids about guns,as they just are not a part of our life in anyway.If only it were a perfect world eh?

[Edwina's Secretary]

Unfortunately too many parents try to just hide the guns from their kids rather than TEACH them about guns and gun safety and teach them respect for the weapons. Hannah will be taught gun safety and respect all her life on top of being kept out of her reach when not in use. Education is key. You NEVER point a gun at someone or something unless you intend to USE it ... whether you think the gun is loaded or not. That lesson will be drilled into her constantly.

Just a few weeks ago you said that a parent is not responsible for the sexual conduct of their teenagers because teenagers are going to do what they want to regardless of the parents' teaching...or something to that effect. Regarding Ms. Palin's unwed pregnant teenage daughter.

Wouldn't that hold true about gun safety as well? So teaching gun safety would not any more prevent a gun accident than teaching abstinance prevent a pregnancy?

[sparks19]

Great to see you going to teach Hannah about guns, but wouldn't it be better if you really never had to, it is something I have never had to teach my children, because you cannot own a gun for protection here, but of course you can still have one for hunting purposes,and shooting sports, but you have to be registered,it does not mean that guns are not used for crime here, because they are,but i have never needed to learn my kids about guns,as they just are not a part of our life in anyway.If only it were a perfect world eh?

Well my husband hunts so we have guns in our home.

[sparks19]

Just a few weeks ago you said that a parent is not responsible for the sexual conduct of their teenagers because teenagers are going to do what they want to regardless of the parents' teaching...or something to that effect. Regarding Ms. Palin's unwed pregnant teenage daughter.

Wouldn't that hold true about gun safety as well? So teaching gun safety would not any more prevent a gun accident than teaching abstinance prevent a pregnancy?

Errrrr... yeah it's pretty much the same thing....

I'm not going to teach hannah abstinence only... I am going to teach her how to have SAFE sex. I can't expect her not to have sex so I am going to teach her how to do it in the safest way possible. teaching abstinence only is just as bad as keeping a gun locked up in a cabinet and not teaching them how to handle it SAFELY.

Ultimately when she is 16 I'm going to be the uncool mom with the rules and she is going to try to push the boundaries. I can't expect her to not have sex until she is married just because I said "NO" but I CAN teach her how to do it safely to help PREVENT an accident.

E-D-U-C-A-T-I-O-N !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


So not really sure what your point was here and what I said was her daughter getting pregnant does not mean she is a bad parent as I am sure she wasn't standing over the bed encouraging it. But her daughter obviously missed the lesson on how to do so safely

[caseysmom]

On September 15 a local 17 year old boy took a gun to school and shot himself in the bathroom, I don't know where he got the gun but chances are it was in the home...you just hear of too many of those stories, its just harder to kill yourself by other means.

[sparks19]

On September 15 a local 17 year old boy took a gun to school and shot himself in the bathroom, I don't know where he got the gun but chances are it was in the home...you just hear of too many of those stories, its just harder to kill yourself by other means.

I disagree. There are lots of ways to kill yourself and these ways take place everyday. I could offer an example of just about every single one from people that i have known. Like my friends uncle who hung himself, or my sisters friend who went home one night and overdosed on pills knowing that no one would find him until it was too late as he lived alone, etc etc. these happen just as often if not more often... but you don't hear about it on the front page of the news because it wasn't with a gun. but it happens all the time unfortunately

[caseysmom]

I disagree. There are lots of ways to kill yourself and these ways take place everyday. I could offer an example of just about every single one from people that i have known. Like my friends uncle who hung himself, or my sisters friend who went home one night and overdosed on pills knowing that no one would find him until it was too late as he lived alone, etc etc. these happen just as often if not more often... but you don't hear about it on the front page of the news because it wasn't with a gun. but it happens all the time unfortunately

I see your point and I am willing to listen to it...another 17 year old boy did hang himself a few years back.

[sparks19]

I see your point and I am willing to listen to it...another 17 year old boy did hang himself a few years back.

UGH... it's so sad to hear about all these young kids that are feeling so hopeless that they end their lives ... no matter the means :(

[caseysmom]

Both were very tragic. The 17 year old that hung himself was having problems and arguing with his mother and was taking anti depressants. His sister, who is my daughters friend, found him. It was very traumatic for all involved.

The other boy apparantly had asked a girl to homecoming and she said no and he also had a lot of pressure being in an honors program at the school.

[blue]

I guess Im the exception that enjoys the time spent doing target practice. I can hold my own shooting against better rifles, and I take pride in that skill.

Shooting is a skill, shouldnt shooting with a lesser firearm be commended?

[Puckstop31]

I guess Im the exception that enjoys the time spent doing target practice. I can hold my own shooting against better rifles, and I take pride in that skill.

Shooting is a skill, shouldnt shooting with a lesser firearm be commended?


Sure... But are you just learning to compensate for a less accurate rifle? :p LOL

Like my new deer rifle... Savage 110 in .270 Win. The "book" says use a 130 grain bullet. I am using 150. Why? I want to ensure a clean and instant kill. Bigger bullet increases the chances of that happening. BUT, that means I need to get a better feel for bullet drop over standard ranges. It is going to drop more. After a few hours on the range (and a sore shoulder) I feel I am ready. Sure, I could buy a better scope (I have a flat 3x9) but I also work for living and pay cash ONLY. LOL

This is not to say the savage is not accurate.... I am just using ammo that is not the "book" type.

Errrr, what was my point? LOL Oh yeah, to pick on Dan.

AK's drool. :p

[sparks19]

Errrr, what was my point? LOL Oh yeah, to pick on Dan.

AK's drool. :p


LOL I'm starting to second guess the offer to have both of you visiting in the same house LOL.

[Hellow]

I say yes to guns, one county in my state has a law that states that you must own a gun within your household or pay a fine. The crime rate has dropped dramatically there. I say the only use for guns is self defense, you really shouldnt use them for anything else.

[blue]

Errrr, what was my point? LOL Oh yeah, to pick on Dan.

AK's drool. :p

Next time we make it to the range Ill have to save the paper, my groups with his scoped Bushmaster AR 15 are better then my AK and his groups with his own rifle. Hopefully he can find the same scope he had on his old AR for his new AR.

Alot of moose and bear hunters use larger grain bullets then what is booked for their rifles.

[blue]

For the consideration of the anti gunners.


A MINORITY VIEW

BY WALTER E. WILLIAMS

RELEASE: WEDNESDAY, MAY 21, 2008, AND THEREAFTER



Control Criminals Not Guns



Every time there's a highly publicized shooting, out go the cries for stricter gun control laws, and it was no different with the recent murder of Philadelphia Police Sgt. Stephen Liczbinski. Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell and Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter, in a letter to the state congressional delegation demanding reenactment of the federal assault weapon ban, said, "Passing this legislation will go a long way to protecting those who put their lives on the line every day for us. É There is no excuse to do otherwise."



Gun control laws will not protect us from murderers. We need protection from the criminal justice system politicians have created. Let's look at it.



According to former Philly cop Michael P. Tremoglie's article "Who freed the cop-killers?" for the Philadelphia Daily News (5/8/08), all three murder suspects had extensive criminal records. Levon Warner was sentenced in 1997 to seven and a half to 15 years for robbery, one to five years for possessing an instrument of crime and five to 10 for criminal conspiracy. Howard Cain was convicted in 1996 on four counts of robbery and sentenced to five to 10 years on each count. Eric Floyd was sentenced to five to 10 years in 1995 for robbery, rearrested in 1999 for parole violation and later convicted in 2001 for two robberies. If these criminals had not been released from prison, long before they served out their sentences, officer Liczbinski would be alive today. So what's responsible for his death: guns or a prison and parole system that released these three criminals? Tremoglie cites other examples of criminals, with convictions for violent crimes ranging from robbery and assault to murder, who were paroled and later murdered police officers.



A New York Times study (4/28/06) of the city's 1,662 murders in 2003-2005 found that 90 percent of the murderers had criminal records. A Massachusetts study reported that on average, homicide offenders had been arraigned for nine prior offenses. John Lott's book, "More Guns, Less Crime," reports that in 1988 in the 75 largest counties in the U.S., over 89 percent of adult murderers had a criminal record as an adult.



A few days after the murder of Liczbinski, Governor Rendell told a news conference, attended by state elected officials and top law enforcement officials, "The time has come for politicians to decide. You have to decide whether you're on their side -- the men and women who wear blue -- or whether you're on the side of the gun lobby." Instead of saying "whether you're on the side of the gun lobby," Rendell should have said "whether you're on the side of the criminal and the courts, prosecutors, prisons and parole boards that cut soft deals with criminals and release them to prey upon police officers and law-abiding citizens."



If there is one clear basic function of government, it's to protect citizens from criminals. When government failure becomes so apparent, as it is in the murder of a police officer, officials seek scapegoats and very often it's the National Rifle Association and others who seek to protect our Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. We hear calls for stricter gun control laws when what is really needed is more control over criminals.



There are many third-party liability laws. I think they ought to be applied to members of parole boards who release criminals who turn around and commit violent crimes. As it stands now, people on parole boards who release criminals bear no cost of their decisions. I bet that if members of parole boards were held liable or forced to serve the balance of the sentence of a parolee who goes out and commits more crime, they would pay more attention to the welfare of the community rather than the welfare of a criminal. You say, "Williams, under those conditions, who'd serve on a parole board?" There's something to be said about that.



Walter E. Williams is a professor of economics at George Mason University.

[lizbud]

Here's a true gun nut & a dangerous man.:rolleyes:

http://www.theindychannel.com/slideshow/slideshows/17690688/detail.html

[JenBKR]

I say yes to guns, one county in my state has a law that states that you must own a gun within your household or pay a fine. The crime rate has dropped dramatically there. I say the only use for guns is self defense, you really shouldnt use them for anything else.

What?? Am I reading this right? You are saying that there is a county that has a law that if you do not have a gun in the house you have to pay a fine? I'm sorry, but I think you have that wrong. They can't make a law like that.....


Here's a true gun nut & a dangerous man.:rolleyes:

http://www.theindychannel.com/slideshow/slideshows/17690688/detail.html

Wow...really scary. Imagine how the neighbors must feel knowing that they were living so close to all of that...

I am conflicted on the subject of guns. I don't like them personally, but I don't have a problem with hunting. My husband hunts and has guns in the house, but they are kept in a locked cabinet, unloaded. We don't even keep the bullets in the house. Guns just make me nervous...but I think that if they were outlawed at this point, criminals would be the only ones to have them.

[Puckstop31]

Here's a true gun nut & a dangerous man.:rolleyes:

http://www.theindychannel.com/slideshow/slideshows/17690688/detail.html


Good. But, whay are you so quick to judge? Hopefully he is still innocent until proven guilty.

If he ends up being convicted (he probably will, the mortar is almost certainly not legal), a good example of criminal control.

[Puckstop31]

What?? Am I reading this right? You are saying that there is a county that has a law that if you do not have a gun in the house you have to pay a fine? I'm sorry, but I think you have that wrong. They can't make a law like that.....

It may sounds crazy... But if something is 'stupid', but works, then it is not stupid.

http://www.rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm

Granted, I do not see this working in the "big city", but out in flyover country, it works just fine.



Guns just make me nervous...but I think that if they were outlawed at this point, criminals would be the only ones to have them.

The only way to conquer a fear is to face it. Perhaps have your hubby take you to a range one day? Guns do not load, aim or fire all by themselves. Properly handled, they are no more dangerous than any other tool. (Except of course to the intended target, but that is another discussion.)

[Edwina's Secretary]

What?? Am I reading this right? You are saying that there is a county that has a law that if you do not have a gun in the house you have to pay a fine? I'm sorry, but I think you have that wrong. They can't make a law like that.....


Sadly it is true...

And if a county passed a law saying everyone who lives in that county must smoke cigarettes or pay a fine? Cigarettes are legal and serve the same purpose as guns -- killing.

Everyone would be in an uproar. But gun owners have a very, very powerful lobbying group.

[JenBKR]

I'm sorry, but I would not live in a county that had a law that people had to have a gun. I am absolutely astonished that that could even happen. I live in a small hick town, and I would move in a second if they tried to pass something like that.....

[JenBKR]

The only way to conquer a fear is to face it. Perhaps have your hubby take you to a range one day? Guns do not load, aim or fire all by themselves. Properly handled, they are no more dangerous than any other tool. (Except of course to the intended target, but that is another discussion.)

I did try to shoot a gun once on a range, quite a few years ago. I shot it once and about shot my foot off :eek: I said right then and there, never again.

[Cinder & Smoke]

... one county in my state has a law that states that
you must own a gun within your household or pay a fine.
The crime rate has dropped dramatically there.

From the cited website:

KENNESAW, Ga >>>

"He said the law in its final form has many loopholes,
so not everyone is required to own a gun.

"There are many outs," he said. "When you look at it,
almost anyone could fit into one of the exempted groups."

Kennesaw Police Chief Dwaine Wilson said
no one has ever been prosecuted under the ordinance.
Among those exempt are residents "who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms
as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine."
Others exempt include the physically and mentally disabled,
paupers and those convicted of a felony.

The law contains no clause addressing punishment for violating the law."
Source: http://www.rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm

[JenBKR]

From the cited website:

KENNESAW, Ga >>>

"He said the law in its final form has many loopholes,
so not everyone is required to own a gun.

"There are many outs," he said. "When you look at it,
almost anyone could fit into one of the exempted groups."

Kennesaw Police Chief Dwaine Wilson said
no one has ever been prosecuted under the ordinance.
Among those exempt are residents "who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms
as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine."
Others exempt include the physically and mentally disabled,
paupers and those convicted of a felony.

The law contains no clause addressing punishment for violating the law."
Source: http://www.rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm

Good to know. Sounds like such a strange law to me.....I was sort of wondering how they would enforce it.

[Puckstop31]

Good to know. Sounds like such a strange law to me.....I was sort of wondering how they would enforce it.

Indeed a tough one to enforce. Maybe not make it a law. Perhaps the city government could recommend firearm ownership?

Either way, it should be pretty safe to say that criminals might think twice before doing their deeds in such a place, no?

[JenBKR]

Either way, it should be pretty safe to say that criminals might think twice before doing their deeds in such a place, no?

I do agree with that. However, I also have to wonder about the stability of everyone in the town that 'has' to have a gun. Also, how responsible they are, if they actually know how to use a gun, etc. Would make me nervous to live there, that's for sure. I don't know if that law is a good answer to crime....then again, I really don't know what a good answer would be. As I said before, outlawing guns at this point would probably not do any good, since then only criminals would have them.

[Puckstop31]

I do agree with that. However, I also have to wonder about the stability of everyone in the town that 'has' to have a gun. Also, how responsible they are, if they actually know how to use a gun, etc. Would make me nervous to live there, that's for sure. I don't know if that law is a good answer to crime....then again, I really don't know what a good answer would be. As I said before, outlawing guns at this point would probably not do any good, since then only criminals would have them.


As much as I hate the idea of MORE laws, I would readily support one that requires a license to purchase a firearm. Not unlike a drivers license. This would NOT track the purchase or create a registry, but simply provide a way to get some basic training in before the purchase is made. I believe that education is the the key to preventing accidents AND treating the hoplophobia of so many people.

In most states you have to take a hunters safety course before you can apply for your first hunting license. It is a logical thing to do to expand that to people who want to own firearms, but not hunt.

I am for this because I see two things, way to often, that piss me off.

1.) People not treating ALL firearms as if they are loaded, at all times.

2.) People not being aware of where the muzzle is pointing.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I do agree with that. However, I also have to wonder about the stability of everyone in the town that 'has' to have a gun. Also, how responsible they are, if they actually know how to use a gun, etc. Would make me nervous to live there, that's for sure. I don't know if that law is a good answer to crime....then again, I really don't know what a good answer would be. As I said before, outlawing guns at this point would probably not do any good, since then only criminals would have them.

If I was a "bad guy" looking to get a bunch of guns I would sure know what town to go to for a little "B&E"!

[CathyBogart]

I would love to see a basic safety course, much like the ones available for motorcycles, recommended before people purchase firearms. Perhaps even a discount offered to people who had taken the course, as motivation. I don't see a problem with firearm ownership in general, but I DO have a problem with ignorant schmucks owning a tool with the potential to be so deadly.

[Puckstop31]

If I was a "bad guy" looking to get a bunch of guns I would sure know what town to go to for a little "B&E"!

I'd think most "bad guys" are not THAT stupid. Criminals generally prefer unarmed victims.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I admit I probably don't think like a criminal....but how would I steal guns from an unarmed person.

Are they THAT stupid?

If I want to steal guns...I need to steal them from someone who has them.

[lizbud]

I admit I probably don't think like a criminal....but how would I steal guns from an unarmed person.

Are they THAT stupid?

If I want to steal guns...I need to steal them from someone who has them.



Too obvious for some to grasp I guess.:D

[sparks19]

I admit I probably don't think like a criminal....but how would I steal guns from an unarmed person.

Are they THAT stupid?

If I want to steal guns...I need to steal them from someone who has them.

Well I don't know if it is worth it to most criminals to go into a house unarmed where they know that the person inside IS armed.


Too obvious for some to grasp I guess.:D

No need to be condescending... Just having a discussion. Sorry you don't agree.

[Puckstop31]

I admit I probably don't think like a criminal....but how would I steal guns from an unarmed person.

Are they THAT stupid?

If I want to steal guns...I need to steal them from someone who has them.


:D

Looky there... I fell for your trap. <golf clap> FWIW, this happens often... I am a sucker for things like this. It is the honest soul I have.

[Grace]

My husband went to a gathering yesterday, put on by Opencarry.org. Here's a link (http://www.mlive.com/annarbornews/news/index.ssf/2008/10/attendees_at_ann_arbor_picnic.html) to an article about it in our local newspaper. He had a great time.

Ann Arbor is a very Liberal city, so it will be interesting to see the letters to the editor. And this article was front page, above the fold!!

[Edwina's Secretary]

I've never known a buglar (although my home was buglarized once) but I think they prefer empty houses to one that have people in them.

I know they like guns and rifles. Easy to steal, easy to conceal, easy to fence.

[sparks19]

I've never known a buglar (although my home was buglarized once) but I think they prefer empty houses to one that have people in them.

I know they like guns and rifles. Easy to steal, easy to conceal, easy to fence.

Well I guess that is the gamble they take... my house appears to be empty all day long... yet I am here. Car in the garage at night, no lights on... are we home or are we away. hmmmm I wonder if it's worth it to take that gamble and find o ut they were wrong. and like the sticker on our house says... "Nothing in this house is worth dying for" it's your choice...

A rifle is easy to conceal? LOL that would be interesting to see.

But the risk of someone breaking into my home is not enough reason for us to not have guns... in fact I think the risk of someone breaking into my home is a big reason TO have it rather than not. Plus the hunting aspect. You don't have to like it... but that won't affect our ability to protect ourselves or change how I feel about it :)

Grace... very neat. I especially like this quote form the article:


"The only time you draw that weapon out in public is if you use it," said Brian Jeffs of Bath. "That's why you won't see anyone handling their gun."

[lizbud]

Well I don't know if it is worth it to most criminals to go into a house unarmed where they know that the person inside IS armed.



If the bad guy knows there are guns inside the house, he will likely take
the chance anyway. Just won't walk up & knock on the door first.:)

[sparks19]

If the bad guy knows there are guns inside the house, he will likely take
the chance anyway. Just won't walk up & knock on the door first.:)

well that would be a very stupid move but then again we are talking criminals(although unless he is a friend and has been in the house before I'm not sure how they would know exactly where the guns are kept)

Still not a good enough reason IMO to take guns away from the law abiding

[Puckstop31]

Ya know what? When we are not home, take anything you want. They are all just things. Things can be replaced.

When my family is home... Come into my home unwanted at your own peril. I love my family too much to put their safety in anybodys hands other than my own or my dogs. Period.

You all are free to do as you wish in this regard, please don't try to deny my RIGHT to do otherwise.

[blue]

Ya know what? When we are not home, take anything you want. They are all just things. Things can be replaced.

When my family is home... Come into my home unwanted at your own peril. I love my family too much to put their safety in anybodys hands other than my own or my dogs. Period.

You all are free to do as you wish in this regard, please don't try to deny my RIGHT to do otherwise.

Pretty well sums it up right there.

About 3 years ago I had a meth head I was working with show up at my house at 11pm while I was trying to sleep.

[caseysmom]

Pretty well sums it up right there.

About 3 years ago I had a meth head I was working with show up at my house at 11pm while I was trying to sleep.

And you shot him?

[Alysser]

I don't see anything wrong with gun ownership unless you are a physcopathic killer, robber, etc. My brother has a few guns or did. He was in the army and served in Iraq for 14 months. He was on Democratic campaign commercial and fired a gun in it. Does that make him a physco? No. My dad has a rifel somewhere which he used to hunt with. He KNOWS how to use it, I don't see anything wrong with it if you take precautions with your children, where you hide it, if you know how to use it, etc. Owning a gun doesn't make you a physco. I don't see anything really wrong with it in general.

[blue]

And you shot him?

I really thought I was going to have too. He knew I dont answer the door at night unarmed, and dont forget he is a meth head.

[caseysmom]

I really thought I was going to have too. He knew I dont answer the door at night unarmed, and dont forget he is a meth head.

That was said tongue in cheek... I actually have owned and fired guns before but when I had kids got rid of them because I didn't feel like I personally was careful enough. And I was told my police officers to make sure someone actually enters the residence if you have to shoot don't do it outside or at the door.

[caseysmom]

My oldest daughter has a boyfriend if any of you need target practice.

[sparks19]

My oldest daughter has a boyfriend if any of you need target practice.

:eek:

LMAO you are funny

[king2005]

yea!!!

Here is my psycho ex breaking the law (he should NOT be allowed to own a gun & should be in prison! or dead.. either works for me)
http://kingrattus.net/gallery/v/Personal/UnknownDates/1/Picture2_020.jpg.html

Me with my crappy .22
http://kingrattus.net/gallery/v/Personal/UnknownDates/1/fuyj.jpg.html

Me with the CZ75s
http://kingrattus.net/gallery/v/Personal/UnknownDates/2/IMG_0059.jpg.html

[blue]

Me with the CZ75s
http://kingrattus.net/gallery/v/Personal/UnknownDates/2/IMG_0059.jpg.html

What version and chamber CZ 75 do you have? Ive been looking at the CZ firearms, the .40SW specificaly.

[king2005]

What version and chamber CZ 75 do you have? Ive been looking at the CZ firearms, the .40SW specificaly.

I don't have them anymore. left the ex in 2005 & he forcefully took all the guns.. I just signed them all away at force as I wanted to get far away from that psycho!!

All I remember is that they were 40cals... I couldn't fire them worth a darn as my hands were just too small.. I had a 40cal glock later on & did very well as it had a smaller grip...

here is a list of guns that I remember

Mini 14
M15 Semi, Auto is illegal in Canada
300 WINMAG Custom Sniper Rifle
.22 LR
.223 WIN Bolt Action fluted barral webbed stock.. I cried when I lost her. took me YEARS to find it, as I wanted a fluted barral with webbing stock.
two CZ75 40cal
An unknown 10G shotgun (Antique)
40cal glock

I'm sure I'm missing some. We owned & sold a lot of guns as he was an online arms dealer.

[blue]

Decent list. I wish I still had my Mini 14, nice gun just a touchy gun as far as maintenence went. The M15, is that the same as an AR 15? Ild like to have a .22 rifle for a plinker, just something to shoot with the cheap ammo.

I sold the Mini because the rest of my rifles all shot 7.69x39 ammo, didnt see the need for more then one rifle round. The SKS and my SARs all feed the same round. Same goes for my pistols. I have a Glock model 23 and a S&W .40 same round feeds both, same reason Im looking at the CZ .40.

My shotgun got stolen 10 years ago when my appt got broken into. The thieves moved a '77 Fender Jazz bass and an 1895 Chilean Mauser out of the way to get to the shotgun. The bass was worth 5x s the shotgun and the Mauser was worth 3x the shotgun. Thieves are dupid.

[king2005]

Decent list. I wish I still had my Mini 14, nice gun just a touchy gun as far as maintenence went. The M15, is that the same as an AR 15? Ild like to have a .22 rifle for a plinker, just something to shoot with the cheap ammo.

I sold the Mini because the rest of my rifles all shot 7.69x39 ammo, didnt see the need for more then one rifle round. The SKS and my SARs all feed the same round. Same goes for my pistols. I have a Glock model 23 and a S&W .40 same round feeds both, same reason Im looking at the CZ .40.

My shotgun got stolen 10 years ago when my appt got broken into. The thieves moved a '77 Fender Jazz bass and an 1895 Chilean Mauser out of the way to get to the shotgun. The bass was worth 5x s the shotgun and the Mauser was worth 3x the shotgun. Thieves are dupid.

I don't remember the difference, but I think its something ever to slightly different between the AR15 & M15... I think ARs are prohibited in canada, I could be WAY wrong, but I think thats why my ex built the M & not the AR.
It was a Carbine if that means anything...

I like the mini14.. it was the perfect size for me & my first rifle.. it was anything but accurate, but it was fun.. Never had any issues with it. We bought it used, then he sold it on me :( poo

we reloaded all our ammo (except for the .22) & liked the variety. The 300 WINMAG shot like my .223 & I use to make clovers all over my target :D

I haven't touched a gun since 2005, but I still have my licence

[Puckstop31]

My oldest daughter has a boyfriend if any of you need target practice.


No need to shoot him. :) Just say thes things to him. LOL

"Still Cleaning this Gun" by Rodney Atkins:

The Declaration of Independence
Think I could tell you that first sentence
But then I’m lost

I can't begin to count the theories
I've had pounded in my head
That I forgot

I don't remember all that Spanish
Or the Gettysburg address
But there is one speech from high school
I'll never forget

(Chorus)
Come on in boy sit on down
And tell me about yourself
So you like my daughter do you now?
Yeah we think she's something else
She's her daddy's girl
Her momma's world
She deserves respect
That’s what she'll get
Ain’t it son?
Hey y'all run along and have some fun
I'll see you when you get back
Bet I’ll be up all night
Still cleanin' this gun

Well now that I’m a father
I’m scared to death one day my daughter
Is gonna find
That teenage boy I used to be
That seems to have just one thing on his mind

She’s growin' up so fast
It won't be long before
I’ll have to put the fear of god into
Some kid at the door

(Chorus)
Come on in boy sit on down
And tell me about yourself
So you like my daughter do you now?
Yeah we think she's something else
She's her daddy's girl
Her momma's world
She deserves respect
That’s what she'll get
Now ain't it son?
Y’all go out and have some fun
I'll see you when you get back
Probably be up all night
Still cleanin' this gun

Now it's all for show
Ain’t nobody gonna get hurt
It’s just a daddy thing
And hey, believe me, man it works

(Chorus)
Come on in boy sit on down
And tell me about yourself
So you like my daughter do you now?
Yeah we think she's something else
She's her daddy's girl
Her momma's world
She deserves respect
That’s what she'll get
Now ain't it son?
Y’all run along and have a little fun
I'll see you when you get back
Probably be up all night
Still cleanin' this gun

Son, now y'all buckle up and have her back by te- let's say about nine...thirty.
Drive safe.



:D

[king2005]

Puck that was asweome!

[caseysmom]

Nice poem but I would still rather you come over and practice your shooting!

[sparks19]

Nice poem but I would still rather you come over and practice your shooting!

it's a song... and Brian can't sing but I bet he will learn before hannah's first date so he can serenade her date with that song LOL.

[JenBKR]

it's a song... and Brian can't sing but I bet he will learn before hannah's first date so he can serenade her date with that song LOL.

Maybe his singing will scare her date away ;)

[caseysmom]

Maybe his singing will scare her date away ;)

It couldn't hurt and maybe he can sing it on the porch in his underwear, that is usually a nice touch that a teenage girl could appreciate!

[JenBKR]

It couldn't hurt and maybe he can sing it on the porch in his underwear, that is usually a nice touch that a teenage girl could appreciate!

Oh now that is a great idea - Hannah is such a lucky girl :p

Hey sparks, can you get us a picture of that? On second thought, never mind.....:eek:

[sparks19]

Maybe his singing will scare her date away ;)

LOL in that case maybe he won't take lessons :D


It couldn't hurt and maybe he can sing it on the porch in his underwear, that is usually a nice touch that a teenage girl could appreciate!


Well... we do'nt need him arrested for indecent exposure :p LMAO

I really feel for Hannah when it comes time for dating hahaha

[Puckstop31]

Maybe his singing will scare her date away ;)

:D

Good idea. LOL


I'll say this...
"Boy, you best get your rump outta my house, else i'll start to singin' fer ya."

While cleaning one of my guns.

Good idea! Assist to JenBKR! LOL

[Puckstop31]

It couldn't hurt and maybe he can sing it on the porch in his underwear, that is usually a nice touch that a teenage girl could appreciate!

EVEN BETTER.

You guys are smart. :D

[JenBKR]

:D

Good idea. LOL


I'll say this...
"Boy, you best get your rump outta my house, else i'll start to singin' fer ya."

While cleaning one of my guns.

Good idea! Assist to JenBKR! LOL


Yikes!
Would certainly scare ME away! (Then again, my OWN singing would scare me away, if that was possible.....:p )

[JenBKR]

EVEN BETTER.

You guys are smart. :D

Oh dear....I will make sure that TY is not the first date that Hannah has!! :eek:

[king2005]

Man.. so glad non of you were my folks LOL :D

Mind you my dad did have a gun.. its an antique now & I've been trying to get him to give it to me.

[sparks19]

Oh dear....I will make sure that TY is not the first date that Hannah has!! :eek:

http://www.criticallayouts.com/images/rsgallery/original/you-are-too-funny-ag1.gif

[king2005]

Man.. so glad non of you were my folks LOL :D

Mind you my dad did have a gun.. its an antique now & I've been trying to get him to give it to me.

Whats funny is that post reminded me to contact the government to see what can be done for me to get that rifle without it going through the chop shop

[blue]

Whats funny is that post reminded me to contact the government to see what can be done for me to get that rifle without it going through the chop shop

Any luck with getting the rifle?

[king2005]

Any luck with getting the rifle?

The government isn't getting back to me... kinda surprised really

[king2005]

Any luck with getting the rifle?

Hey Blue,

The governenment got back to me! I can register my fathers rifle with NO issues. We just have to call a special number to get it registered & then placed under my name.

My dad agreeded for now. But hes debating if he wants to get his licence or not. I told him it needs to be registered ASAP & if & when he gets that licence I'll have it transfered back to his name.. BUT I made it darn clear that if its going under my name he MUST place the trigger lock I buy & mail him onto it. I will have both keys, NOT him. When I come down next summer, I will be taking the rifle apart & removing the firing pin & that'll be coming home with me & placed into a Firesafe with the keys for safety. The rifle will stay with him as hes had it since he was a boy & has NO intentions on giving it to anyone. He knows its worth between 3000-5000.00 now, & thats why I do NOT want it, so he wont worry about it being stolen from me or me selling it (which I would NEVER dream of doing!!)... But regardless that its registered under my name, in the end it is not mine & I know that. I just don't him him getting into doo doo or it going to the chop shop :(

I'll also be making him buy it a locking case that his current case can fit inside, so it can be locked so no one can even look at it. As it'll be under my name, & I refuse to get into any sort of issues becuase of some idiot finding it (which has never happened, but it would just be my luck)...

The Government also gave me a special number to call to have the ammunition destroyed. Its so old & has been laying around, I fear it might be damaged from age, or some strange moisture, mild, anything effecting it, or makin git super fragile & randomly exploding & possibly harming someone, or if someone forgets thats the old stuff & tries to use it & thinks its a dud & stupidly doesn't wait 1 min & take it out & then it goes off due to delay...

All that is soo unlikely, but why risk it right?

I promote Gun safety & I have very strict gun rules, which I force anyone I'm with to obey. Many are already gun safety rules/laws, but I go a little over board as many others do, as the laws here are strict enough & I don't want some idiot with me making them any worse, or worse I get blamed for something an idiot does & loose my license & guns.. NOT cool at all!!

I live by this rule 90% of the time, "Better Be Safe Then Sorry"... However I'm still a risk taker, like I'll climb a waterfall cliff, climb random boulders, walk across fallen trees, & other stupid things like petting a Bull Moose & touching his velvet antlers. I was quiet, slow & calm so he was cool.. Other people scared him away when they quickly reached for him.. idiots :P

[lizbud]

Boy, 8, fatally shoots self in head while trying out Uzi submachine gun at Mass. gun club show
By Associated Press

11:15 AM CDT, October 27, 2008
WESTFIELD, Mass. (AP) _ An 8-year-old boy died after accidentally shooting himself in the head while firing an Uzi submachine gun under adult supervision at a gun fair.

The boy lost control of the weapon while firing it Sunday at the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo at the Westfield Sportsman's Club, police Lt. Lawrence Vallierpratte said.

The boy, Christopher Bizilj of Ashford, Conn., was with a certified instructor and "was shooting the weapon down range when the force of the weapon made it travel up and back toward his head, where he suffered the injury," a police statement said.

Christopher died at Baystate Medical Center.


Police said the boy's father, Charles Bizilj, attended the event with his son. The father is the medical director of emergency medicine at Johnson Memorial Hospital, in Stafford Springs, Conn.

Although police called it a "self-inflicted accidental shooting," police and the Hampden district attorney's office were investigating, officials said.

"We are going to review all the circumstance regarding what happened, who was involved, what authorities they may or may not have had, who was supervising," District Attorney William Bennett said Monday.

It is legal for children to fire a weapon if they have permission from a parent or legal guardian and are supervised by a properly certified and licensed instructor, Lt. Hipolito Nunez said.

Those conditions were met in this case, he said. He declined to release the supervisor's name.

The event, run in conjunction with C.O.P Firearms and Training, said in an ad that people are allowed to fire weapons at vehicles, pumpkins and other targets at the event.

The club said it would offer machine gun demonstrations and rentals and free handgun lessons.

"It's all legal & fun — No permits or licenses required!!!!" reads the ad, posted on the club's Web site.

Officials with the private club and the firearms group could not be reached for comment. Messages left on answering machines for the club and the C.O.P. group were not returned Monday.

The sportsman's club was founded in 1949 and describes itself on its Web site as promoting "the interest of legal sport with rod, gun, and bow and arrow, both directly and through training."

It has eight firing ranges as well as archery and fishing facilities located on 375 acres in Westfield, about 100 miles west of Boston.

___

On the Web:

Westfield Club: http://www.westfieldsportsman.com

[sparks19]

An unfortunate accident.

But not enough reason for me to take the ability to hunt and defend your family away from everyone

Sorry

funny though how no one ever posts stories about when producing a gun has saved someone... and despite what you think it happens A LOT

[beeniesmom]

Oh my goodness. Poor child and family. :eek: :eek:

[Edwina's Secretary]

So far this weekend we have another shooting on a college campus -- two dead one wounded -- this domestic shooting of a woman, her son and grandson...and this poor boy shot accidently while under adult supervision at a gun show. I also see in this thread the admission from a gun enthusiast that she practices gun safety "90% of the time."

Sparky you say it happens alot that people are saved by someone "producing a gun." Could you give us a couple of examples?

Weren't you concerned about a bank robbery with a shooting last week? Was anyone saved there by "producing a gun?"

[Lady's Human]

Try FBI crime stats, John Lott, ad nauseum.

ES, this has been brought up before, you never choose to believe the stats, why even bother posting?

[Edwina's Secretary]

Perhaps for the same reason you need to attack me every time I do post?

Would those be the same stats you promised about the economic makeup of the military but never delivered?

[Lady's Human]

Attack?

No, Sara, I haven't attacked you.

I can flame, as well as anyone, but I haven't done it here, as I respect most of the posters on the website, and if I had the Mod would hammer me quicker than anyone on the board.

The Lott and FBI crime stats have been discussed and posted before, and you choose not to believe them, as you do with any stats that don't conform to your view of the world, regardless of the source.

The military stats were an issue we were discussing in PM a couple of weeks ago, frankly, I forgot about it. Try Army Times, they normally do an annual survey and publish it.

[RICHARD]

How many people die in B&A accidents? Drown while fishing?

The accident was unfortunate-why was an 8 year old allowed to shoot a
SMG anyway?

I started with small caliber, long rifles, probably would or could have shot myself in the foot-but letting a child shoot something that uncontrolable is the fault of the father.

I hope the laws change to allow children to learn gun safety, but with smaller caliber, long guns, not the 'cool guns' they see used on TV or in the media.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Attack?

No, Sara, I haven't attacked you.

I can flame, as well as anyone, but I haven't done it here, as I respect most of the posters on the website, and if I had the Mod would hammer me quicker than anyone on the board.

The Lott and FBI crime stats have been discussed and posted before, and you choose not to believe them, as you do with any stats that don't conform to your view of the world, regardless of the source.

The military stats were an issue we were discussing in PM a couple of weeks ago, frankly, I forgot about it. Try Army Times, they normally do an annual survey and publish it.

I have never seen any statistics posted here on the use of guns to prevent crimes. Sorry. I just haven't. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else.

I have seen statistics on the higher risk to those who live in homes with guns than homes without guns. As well as other anti-gun stats. I suspect you would have the same reaction to me saying such stats exist as I have to your statement about stats I truthful do not ever recall seeing. Probably the first thing you would do is question the source of the statistics. Then you would go into a long winded explanation of why they are all wrong and only yours are right.

Then you would call me a barnyard animal.

You are at least consistent in your behavior!

[Edwina's Secretary]

And a question LH...when was the last time you agreed with statistics that did not support with your political position?

Was there ice involved?

[sparks19]

So far this weekend we have another shooting on a college campus -- two dead one wounded -- this domestic shooting of a woman, her son and grandson...and this poor boy shot accidently while under adult supervision at a gun show. I also see in this thread the admission from a gun enthusiast that she practices gun safety "90% of the time."

Sparky you say it happens alot that people are saved by someone "producing a gun." Could you give us a couple of examples?

Weren't you concerned about a bank robbery with a shooting last week? Was anyone saved there by "producing a gun?"


I was mostly worried about the high speed CHASE lol... and thanked GOD my husband wasn't on the road during that time. The robbers did not kill anyone (although they very well could have with the high speed chase)... the "shooting" you speak of were the State Troopers taking out one of the robbers that pointed a gun at them... so yeah I guess you could say the troopers lives were saved by producing their guns and taking that b@stard out.

Luckily our Governor just passed down harsher punishments for criminals who commit violent gun crimes... LIFE... NO parole... possibly death pentaly. About time someone started blaming the CRIMINALS instead of the law abiding citizens that are just trying to protect themselves

I can think of examples in my own life where people I know have saved themselves by producing a weapon.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38726

http://www.sptimes.com/News/081501/TampaBay/Exchange_of_bullets_h.shtml

http://www.sptimes.com/News/080901/TampaBay/Armed_intruder_shot_d.shtml

I'm also trying to find a good NEWS link that does take you to a bunch of other links to read the story... I do have a link for a first hand account from the family but I'm sure that own't mean much to you....

here it is anyway...
http://www.savedbyagun.com/our_story.html

this family had been stalked for years by this man and he went on a rampage and the police suspected he MIGHT be coming and notified the family but no other help was offered. Sure enough the stalker came to their home with a bullet proof vest on to "settle his score". the husband had prepared for the worst and had his weapon just in case. Their stalker came in shooting and and the husband shot back and wounded him which then made the stalker run away... he was later captured a couple miles away and taken to jail.

Now... I know what you are going to say "If it weren't for guns none of these would have happened" but that's not entirely true... if it weren't for CRIMINALS none of these stories would have happened.

As a law abiding citizen I will not have the right to protect my daughter taken away because of CRIMINALS or stupid people. YOu don't have to like it but you sure aren't going to change my mind about it.

[Lady's Human]

No, there wasn't ice involved, and I've never accused you of being a barnyard animal.

Nice attempt to smear, ES, but it just isn't going to work. The Lott studies and FBI stats (raw statistical data from the FBI, not massaged by someone) have been discussed, you poo-poo'd the data.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Nice try LH...look it up in your dictionary. Biddy is a barnyard animal.

And I am still waiting for your high moral indignation at the denigation of a candidate's speech pattern. Being as how you take great offense at discussion of non-issue -- personal type stuff.

Yeah...right.

[sparks19]

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp


* Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals at least 764,000 times a year. This figure is the lowest among a group of 9 nationwide surveys done by organizations including Gallup and the Los Angeles Times. (16b)

* In 1982, a survey of imprisoned criminals found that 34% of them had been "scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim." (16c)



* Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1)

[sparks19]

Oh good lord... now this is just getting ridiculous.

Why don't you just go meet at the monkey bars after school (no teachers) and settle this schoolyard nonsense like most kids.

and lets get back to the debate.

[Lady's Human]

Give it up, Sara. You're flailing and failing.

There hasn't been a discussion in here involving firearms and gun control which you haven't inserted yourself into, and you remember remarks made by people months, sometimes years after the fact, yet you can't remember something as central to the discussion as FBI raw statistical data and the Lott studies.

As to Biddy, the colloquial definition is:

biddy
Noun
pl -dies Informal a woman, esp. an old gossipy one

which is the definition I was clearly using in the earlier discussion.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Sorry Joe. I think that is passive -aggressive behavior you are exhibiting!

Telling me I am failing and flailing because you don't want to answer a question!

Okee dokee!

Sparky is playing nice. Why can't you?

[Lady's Human]

What question would that be, Sara?

[RICHARD]

As to Biddy, the colloquial definition is:

biddy
Noun
pl -dies Informal a woman, esp. an old gossipy one


Male-en The male form of a biddy.:confused::eek::D

[Edwina's Secretary]

bid·dy 1 (bd)
n. pl. bid·dies
A hen; a fowl

A hen...is a barnyard animal.

When tossing insults at people it is best to know what they mean.

When I was in college there was a term I thought meant "jerk." I used it at dinner with the parents of the guy I was dating.

When he walked me back to my dorm he asked me to bring down my dictionary. I did and he showed me the dictionary definition of the term I used.

That was the end of that relationship!

Noun 1. biddy - adult female chicken

[sparks19]

Well... I've been called a lot worse than a HEN in my lifetime. that's pretty low on my "offensive" list :)

[king2005]

I don't care who is to blame, so can this immature argument just stop (for all parties involved). This was a decent thread up until the last 1+ page where it is now about people fighting with each other.

1 thing I have learned is to ignore people I think are ignorant of facts, IMO. I ignore them, then they have no fuel to feed off of, so nothing really gets started... Thats 1 reason I stay out of the Seal Hunt threads, as so many people are ignorant & refuse to acknowldge that many of the seal hunters are actually breaking the laws.. & that Peta is good for making their own videos of themselve breaking the Seal Hunting laws... but I'll stop there... (please don't cont'd the seal hunt thing, it was purely an example of ignorance, IMO)

So lets all grow up & get back to having a decent chat about guns & ignore people who we don't get a long with (why you haven't blocked the other is beyond me) so things can remain civil... No matter if you are for or against guns.. but you need to present good reason & evidence for both sides...

So lets all ignore that fight & cont'd the FRIENDLY debate after this post please :)

[Lady's Human]

Gee, Sara,I pulled my definition out of a dictionary, too!

Whichever one is correct?

Again, Sara, have you looked at the Lott studies? FBI statistical data?

Or are you going to just pretend that what I stated is incorrect?

Care to get back on track, or are you just going to admit that you're wrong?

[Edwina's Secretary]

I am at work. I don't really think it is a good idea for me to do a search on the Lott studies. Or the FBI stats.

I have no idea what you think I am wrong about this time.

Your constant need to atack me is wearing me down. Is that what you want me to admit?

Okay...you win. I have more important things to do.

[Lady's Human]

Again, I have no need to constantly attack you. I'm not attacking, I'm asking you why you continue to ask for data, when you're just going to ignore the data. If that's an attack, I must misunderstand the word.

I'm asking why you feel the persistent need to insult people you disagree with when you can't win the argument with facts.

I'm asking you why you consistently drag unrelated discussions into other threads. Senator Obama was mentioned nowhere in this thread, and the biddy comment was also in another thread. Neither comment has anything to do with the discussion at hand.

The previous firearms threads I mentioned are entirely germane to this discussion, and you have consistently argued against the second amendment. There are several threads where FBI crime data, the Lott study, and other data showing gun posession actually lowering crime rates were brought in, and you ignored the data, and insulted the people who posted the data. You forget those rather heated discussions, but manage to remember other things quite well.

Can the act, ES, it's really getting old. (Now THAT you can consider a personal attack. If I'm going to get accused of it, I may as well do it.)

[sparks19]

Gee, Sara,I pulled my definition out of a dictionary, too!

Whichever one is correct?

Again, Sara, have you looked at the Lott studies? FBI statistical data?

Or are you going to just pretend that what I stated is incorrect?

Care to get back on track, or are you just going to admit that you're wrong?

Actually... I am interested in seeing the data. I haven't ever seen it before (at least... not that I recall) and I am apparently google impaired lol Would you be able to post it or send me the links so I can see it :D

[Edwina's Secretary]

Whatever LH ...whatever. You are a bully. You bully anyone who disagrees with you. And I seem to be an especial target of yours. I have my beliefs as to why but will just leave it at that.

I told you. You win. Okay.

[RICHARD]

LOLOLOLOL,

Sara,

Prove to me where I called you a hen-or that anyone else did for that matter.

And I will apologize for making you feel smaller that you think you are.

We tried this once before and you could not even come close to proving your case. You do pick arguements, then try to claim that someone insults you by calling you a name, you bait people then pull the, "Look what they are doing!"
card outta the deck.

I am calling you out on this one. Prove it and I'll give you an apology on PT for everyone to see. Before, it was amazing to see you working yourself up into lather, now it's just a Lawrence Welk extravaganza.

Now, check into the vaults and bring it. Otherwise, don't bother me, I am going home to roost.


Love,
The unhappy hypocrite.:D

[Lady's Human]

And still with the insults.

[caseysmom]

It is an okay topic - the Dog House is for anything controversial. As long as you remember that this is Pet Talk, and stay polite and respectful of people even if they have differing opinions, the topic is okay to discuss.




I am quoting our Mayor...so many threads have turned to name calling lately, it is so ugly:(

[RICHARD]

I am quoting our Mayor...so many threads have turned to name calling lately, it is so ugly:(

O.k.

I really would like to see where PTers have called each other names.

You can start by quoting all the people who have called me unhappy, a hypocrite, miserable and ?????

Thanks.:rolleyes:

[sparks19]

O.k.

I really would like to see where PTers have called each other names.

You can start by quoting all the people who have called me unhappy, a hypocrite, miserable and ?????

Thanks.:rolleyes:


But... But... when I say it it's only out of love :D

:p

[RICHARD]

But... But... when I say it it's only out of love :D

:p


NOT in front of......


Ohhhhhhhh!:o

[JenBKR]

Aww Richard, ya know we love ya ;) (Just think of what we'd call you if we DIDN'T like you :eek: )

[RICHARD]

Aww Richard, ya know we love ya ;) (Just think of what we'd call you if we DIDN'T like you :eek: )


You'd call collect?:D:eek::love:

[blue]

NOT in front of......


Ohhhhhhhh!:o

For a second I thought you where learning to white post.

Did a quick search and found this.


About three-fourths of the victims who used firearms for
self-defense did so during a crime of violence, 1987-92

Average annual number of victimizations
in which victims used firearms to defend
themselves or their property
________________________________________
Attacked Threatened
Total offender offender
________________________________________
All crimes 82,500 30,600 51,900
Total violent crime 62,200 25,500 36,700

With injury 12,100 7,300 4,900
Without injury 50,000 18,200 31,800

Theft, burglary,
motor vehicle theft 20,300 5,100 15,200

Note: Detail may not add to total because of rounding. Includes
victimizations in which offenders were unarmed. Excludes
homicides.

Ild try and find something more current but my streak of horrible days is continuing.

[blue]

Some information for the anti firearm crowd, Link. (http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st/st176/s176a.html) Dont be afraid of information and click the link and do some reading.

15 myths about firearms.


Firearms are used to commit as many as 650,000 crimes each year. But firearms are also used to prevent crimes as many as one million times each year. In fact, criminals are three times more likely to be killed by armed victims who resist them than by the police. Would tougher gun control laws make our lives safer? Fair appraisal of the issue requires us to put aside some common myths.
Myth No. 1: Guns cause crime. A careful review of 18 academic studies shows that there is no relationship between the number of guns and the amount of crime in the United States. International evidence tells a similar story.
Myth No. 2: Gun control laws reduce crime. The nation already has 20,000 gun control laws, and the police arrest 220,000 people a year on weapons violations. Yet the violent crime rate is at an all-time high. Moreover, considering that fewer than 1 percent of all guns are involved in a crime and only 12 percent of all violent crimes involve a gun, gun control laws could have only a modest effect on crime - even if they worked exactly as intended, which they don't. For example, New Jersey, Hawaii and Washington, D.C., experienced sharp murder-rate increases after passing tough gun control laws. Canada, Taiwan and Jamaica reported similar experiences.
Myth No. 3: Guns are of little help in defending against criminals. In fact, guns are a big help. Each year, potential victims kill from 2,000 to 3,000 criminals and wound an additional 9,000 to 17,000. And mishaps are rare. Private citizens mistakenly kill innocent people only 30 times a year, compared with about 330 mistaken killings by police. Criminals succeed in taking a gun away from an armed victim less than 1 percent of the time.
Myth No. 4: Killing someone is the only reason to buy a handgun. The vast majority of gun owners cite protection from crime as one of the main reasons they own a gun. And for good reason. Americans use guns for self-protection about one million times a year. In 98 percent of the cases, they simply brandish the weapon or fire a warning shot.
Myth No. 5: People who buy guns are more prone to violence and crime than are other people. Violence and crime are higher among black than white, lower-income than middle- or upper-income, young than middle-aged, single than married, and urban than rural individuals - all contrary to the pattern of gun ownership.
Myth No. 6: Criminals mainly have guns in order to commit crimes. The number one reason criminals acquire guns is for self-protection against other criminals. Fewer than half of felons think handguns are important for use in committing crimes.
Myth No. 7: Killings and other violent crimes were prevalent in the Old West because guns were so plentiful. Much of the violence on the frontier involved clashes with Indians, bandits and foreigners. Even so, the frontier was a lot safer than America is today. There was very little ordinary crime - less than in most cities in the East.
Myth No. 8: Gun controls keep criminals from obtaining guns. In surveys of prisoners, a majority said that prior to imprisonment they had owned a handgun. But fewer than one in six guns had been purchased from a retail dealer. Three-fourths of the felons said they would have no trouble obtaining a gun when they were released, despite legal prohibitions.
Myth No. 9: Required waiting periods would prevent some of the most vicious crimes. If the Brady bill were law, it would not have saved Jim Brady. Nor would it have prevented the Killeen, Texas, massacre or the slaughter at McDonald's in Stockton, Calif. However, an instant records check (to identify felons when they try to purchase guns from retail dealers) and better enforcement of existing laws (to turn criminals into convicted felons) might well prevent some vicious crimes.
Myth No. 10: Most murders are committed by people killing friends or family members. The actual number is about one out of five. Most in-household killings are not crimes of passion. They're the culmination of years of abusive behavior, and often it is the abuser who is killed.
Myth No. 11: The availability of guns contributes to crimes of passion. In about 90 percent of "crime-of-passion" domestic homicides, the police had been called in previously to break up violence. In half the cases, the police had been called in five or more times. There is no evidence that a significant number of homicides occur simply because a lethal weapon is handy.
Myth No. 12: Automatic rifles and so-called assault weapons are too dangerous to be left in private hands. Over the past 50 years no civilian has ever used a legally owned machine gun in a violent crime. And despite their repeated use by drug dealers on "Miami Vice" and in the movies, no Uzi has ever been used to kill a police officer. Even gun control advocates concede that so-called assault weapons play a minor role in violent crime.
Myth No. 13: Gun control laws are especially needed to prevent the purchase of "Saturday Night Specials." Inexpensive handguns are involved in only 1 to 3 percent of violent crimes, and criminals are no more likely to use one than any other type of handgun.
Myth No. 14: People don't need guns for self-protection because they can rely on the police. About 83 percent of the population will be victims of violent crime at some point in their lives, and in any given year serious crime touches 25 percent of all households. Considering that, effectively, there is only one police officer on patrol for every 3,300 people, the odds are not likely to improve. And the courts have ruled that government has no duty to protect individual citizens from crime.
Myth No. 15: Gun ownership is not a constitutional right. The Second Amendment reflects the founders' belief that an armed citizenry (called the "general militia") was a necessary precaution against tyranny by our own government and its army. The idea that government has a constitutional right to disarm the general citizenry is totally foreign to the intent of the Constitution's framers.

[sparks19]

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/laworder/story/9C58494B45470714862574F3006D0CA6?OpenDocument


Cops: Cape Girardeau woman kills man who returned to rape her second time

Ronnie Preyer.
,
Photo from Cape Girardeau County Sheriff's Department. (=)By Heather Ratcliffe
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
10/31/2008

An intended rape victim shot and killed her attacker this morning in Cape Girardeau when he broke into her home to rape her a second time, police said.

The 57-year-old woman shot Ronnie W. Preyer, 47, a registered sex offender, in the chest with a shotgun when he broke through her locked basement door.
The woman told police he was the same man who raped her several days earlier. Officials do not intend to seek charges against her.

In the first incident, the woman heard glass breaking in her basement about midnight on Saturday. She went to leave the house, and the man attacked when she opened the front door. He punched her in the face and then forced her into a bedroom, where he raped her, said H. Morley Swingle, prosecuting attorney in Cape Girardeau County.

The victim reported the crime to police, and her landlord repaired the broken window.

She was home alone again Friday about 2:15 a.m. when Preyer broke the same basement window. The victim was awake watching television, when Preyer switched off the electricity to her house.

She tried to call 911, but couldn't because the power was off. She got a shotgun and waited as the man began banging on the basement door. She fired when Preyer came crashing through the door. When Preyer collapsed, the woman escaped and went to a neighbor's home, where she called police. Officers, who arrived within a minute, found a bleeding Preyer stumbling away from the house. He was taken to St. Francis Medical Center, where he died several hours later.

Swingle said the victim identified Preyer as the attacker in both incidents. Preyer, of Jackson, Mo., had wet caulking from the recently repaired basement window on his clothing when he was shot.

"I will not be filing any sort of charge against this 57-year-old woman, who was clearly justified under the law in shooting this intruder in her home," Swingle said.

[blue]

One of the proper uses of firearms, self protection. Im glad the local PD feel the same way.

[sparks19]

One of the proper uses of firearms, self protection. Im glad the local PD feel the same way.

Me too. But interesting that no one else has responded.

Honestly I was waiting for someone to say that she shouldn't have killed him, that she should have called the police or something.

GOOD FOR HER. this is why the right to bare arms is important... the right to PROTECT YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY. but some people fail to see that point because OTHERS die at the hands of criminals who don't care about gun control and laws.

But even if it means I will go to jail... I WILL protect my daughters life from the scum of the earth. I will do WHATEVER it takes. I may succeed... I may fail... but I will do my very best to ensure her safety. Are you going to take that away from me? If someone starts a thread saying that a predator came into their home and murdered their child because they couldn't defend themselves and the police didn't get there in time... will there be a thread full of OUTRAGE?

[Edwina's Secretary]

Are you serious Sparky? You expect as much response to a criminal being shot as to a child being shot?

Oooookay.

[Lady's Human]

Absolutely, ES, where's the righteous indignation about guns?

After all, a life is a life, right?

[RICHARD]

Comments from Bobby Knight, former college coach in men's basketball.

1988 — In an NBC interview with Connie Chung, who asked how he handles stress, Knight says: "I think that if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it." He explains he was talking about something beyond one's control, not the act of rape..

Or, you can pull out a gun and shoot the jerk. I think that shooting the moron saved me some tax dollars. I like it when the public gets involved with the fiscal matters of government.

[shais_mom]

i'm on the bandwagon that guns don't kill people - PEOPLE pull the trigger- and kill people. I don't own a gun tho.

[RICHARD]

i'm on the bandwagon that guns don't kill people - PEOPLE pull the trigger- and kill people. I don't own a gun tho.

Doll,

Unless you smack the shiat outta someone with a gun.........Bullets do the killing!;):confused:

[shais_mom]

but unless the trigger is pulled that bullet isn't going to kill anyone
altho notice I didn't say a PERSON pulling the trigger this time b/c even a monkey can pull a trigger.
and no that isn't a racial remark

[RICHARD]

but unless the trigger is pulled that bullet isn't going to kill anyone
altho notice I didn't say a PERSON pulling the trigger this time b/c even a monkey can pull a trigger.
and no that isn't a racial remark


DAMN YOU!
Always with the logical answer.:D

--------

And we haven't had our yearly story about the hunter who gets shot by the dog????:) Yet?!

[shais_mom]

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/laworder/story/9C58494B45470714862574F3006D0CA6?OpenDocument

I'll say
"well done". I'd have done the same thing if I were in her position.

[shais_mom]

DAMN YOU!
Always with the logical answer.:D

--------

And we haven't had our yearly story about the hunter who gets shot by the dog????:) Yet?!

awww Richard I know you :love:me! ;)

actually last year around this time we had a 12 year old boy hunting with his father and he was killed not by being shot by his father/ another person. But b/c where he had the gun that he'd used for years position when he fired the kickback hit him square in the heart, and caused his heart to malfunction and by the time he was brought to the ER a bloodclot had already formed and he died. So in that case it was a GUN that killed someone. Not the bullet. :(

[Cinder & Smoke]

Or, you can pull out a gun and shoot the jerk.
I think that shooting the moron saved me some tax dollars.
I like it when the public gets involved with the fiscal matters of government.

I'm all for savin a buck or two ... FIRE away!

:eek:

[sparks19]

I'll say
"well done". I'd have done the same thing if I were in her position.

Agreed. Good for her. This just goes to show that you cannot put your own safety in the hands of anyone but yourself. You can't count on the police to come and save you. but some people want to take away the ability for women like this to protect themselves.

[shais_mom]

I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment since I don't own a gun, but I totally agree with Sparks. I have thought about getting a gun - even if it is a simple pistol look-alike bb gun. As a single woman living alone sometimes I get scared. Yes I have a big dog, but I'm not entirely sure WHAT she'd do if I was threatened. I **think** she would protect me. She sure has bared her teeth at people she doesn't like but she's never taken that to the next measure. And unless my life is being threatened I don't want her to. Even if my life was threatened I'm sure there'd be repercussions of having a dog responsible for biting someone. :rolleyes:
But I don't like the idea of taking away my RIGHT to bear arms either.

[RICHARD]

I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment since I don't own a gun, but I totally agree with Sparks. I have thought about getting a gun - even if it is a simple pistol look-alike bb gun.




You're gonna put you eye out with it!!

I have a good .22 cal pellet gun, it's a one shot pump, should I ever need to use it, I have one shot, then I'll be forced to go MMA afterwards.
It's good practice should you ever want to own a real gun.

[shais_mom]

Just b/c I disagree with you Sara doesn't mean I'm wrong.
I think you are so passionate about your beliefs you forget that. But I never said you were wrong about anything. Other's may have but I didn't. If he shot himself its his parents fault for giving him the gun, if they aren't smart enough to not give him a gun, then they belong in jail.
And quite frankly - I've no clue what you are talking about b/c I didn't read the rest of this thread nor do I intend too...
you have freedom of speech - others request their right to bear arms. Do you think words don't cause people to kill themselves over the hurt of them? Ohhhh yea - that's right - its the GUN'S fault when someone kills themself.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Absolutely, ES, where's the righteous indignation about guns?

After all, a life is a life, right?

You are so cute when you put words in my mouth LH! Of course, that is easier than say...producing these statistics you talk about!

[Lady's Human]

No, not putting words in your mouth, ES, I'm not going to take over your job.

You seem to do quite well putting words in other people's mouths, PT needs only one expert in that regard.

Once again, the statistics about firearms used in self defense are readily available.

Google, anyone? Again, I see no need to search fr a topic for someone when google will bring up plenty of intormation with a few keystrokes

Of course, if you actually did the search, you'd be one less thing to carp about, so heaven forbid you actually took it upon ourself to search.

[Edwina's Secretary]

No, not putting words in your mouth, ES, I'm not going to take over your job.

You seem to do quite well putting words in other people's mouths, PT needs only one expert in that regard.

Once again, the statistics about firearms used in self defense are readily available.

Google, anyone? Again, I see no need to search fr a topic for someone when google will bring up plenty of intormation with a few keystrokes

Of course, if you actually did the search, you'd be one less thing to carp about, so heaven forbid you actually took it upon ourself to search.

50 million innocent people were killed today with firearms. Heck, now I understand how you do it!

(You are flailing and flinging now LH...)

[Lady's Human]

ES, again.

google "lott study" or "Lott report" or "Lott firearms study"

It's not that tough.

Or maybe it is?

They're not invisible statistics. It's willful ignorance on your part.

[RICHARD]

awww Richard I know you :love:me! ;)



LOL, I was trying to keep you safe. And now the secret is out!:love:

Ever suspect that the Anti Gun lobbyists would bust a cap in yo arese to get the point across?

[shais_mom]

LOL, I was trying to keep you safe. And now the secret is out!:love:

Ever suspect that the Anti Gun lobbyists would bust a cap in yo arese to get the point across?

kind of like the anti-abortionists that believe abortion in murder but yet blow up abortion clinics to prove their point?
**hugs**

[Edwina's Secretary]

ES, again.

google "lott study" or "Lott report" or "Lott firearms study"

It's not that tough.

Or maybe it is?

They're not invisible statistics. It's willful ignorance on your part.

Tell me. What did you think of the statistics on the Academy of Pediatrics website? You know...the ones about how dangerous is it to have guns in the house if you have children? How teaching gun safety to children does nothing to increase the safety of children around guns?

Or are you just willfully ignorant of what the Academy studies say?

By the way...the Lott study, in addition to being over 10 years old -- is about as objective as the Slate Report.

Surely you can do better than that.

[Puckstop31]

There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics.

All the hot air in the world cannot change one thing. Firearm ownership is a God given, Constitutionally affirmed individual right. Nothing, short of a repeal of the 2nd Amendment, can change that. That happens... States start seceding. No doubt.

Irrational, emotional people will always be against this individual right. But in the end... I worry little about it. Because either way, they are NOT getting my guns. There are those of you who will take that to mean that I am some sort of crazy gun nut... That's fine. It is not true, but it is fine. Simply put, my family's safety from tyranny, no matter what form it takes, is the most important Earthly thing to me. No mere government can or shall take that from me.

Make me a criminal for owning an inanimate object? That means it is time to vote from the rooftops. Why? Because I'd rather die free than live a slave.

[catland]

ok - first of all, I haven't read the thread - I just took the easy way out and went to the last chapter.

50M a day? at that rate, we'll all be wiped out in 4 months!

But seriously folks,

Us, (The US of A) have never suffered from a military coup. Why? because the citizens are allowed to bear arms.

Once that right is taken away, military coups are inevitable.

so I'll keep my guns, thank you very much.

[RICHARD]

Once that right is taken away, military coups are inevitable.

so I'll keep my guns, thank you very much.


That's why the Coupe De Ville never became popular.


kind of like the anti-abortionists that believe abortion in murder but yet blow up abortion clinics to prove their point?
**hugs**

YEAH! Like that!:eek:

[Edwina's Secretary]

Us, (The US of A) have never suffered from a military coup. Why? because the citizens are allowed to bear arms.

Once that right is taken away, military coups are inevitable.



What a low opinion you have of the US military! ;) The only reason for no coup is an armed populace?

There are lots of countries without our level of firearms and also without military coups!

[blue]

There are lots of countries without our level of firearms and also without military coups!

If the populace is unarmed why use the military for a coup?

Is it just me but does the word coup just look wierd?

[blue]

I knew I was just being paranoid.


Address Gun Violence in Cities: As president, Barack Obama would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals who shouldn't have them. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent, as such weapons belong on foreign battlefields and not on our streets.

Linky. (http://change.gov/agenda/urbanpolicy/)

[blue]

Rather then further muddy my thread for amending the Constitution for term limits.

The original intent of one of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America.


"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States

None of the Founding Fathers wrote that the Government should be better armed then its Citizens. None of them wrote that the citizens should be limitted to muzzle loaded rifles or pistols while the government makes and keeps the technological advancements in arms for themselves.

[Grace]

I have no problem with the 2nd Amendment. My husband is a Life member of the NRA; I have gone target shooting with him.

The talk in this thread has been about kids getting shot. What about when kids do the shooting? Have you all heard about the 8 year old in Arizona who killed his father and another man?

I just read that he shot each of them 4 times - the murder weapon was a single-action .22-caliber hunting rifle that requires reloading before each shot. His dad had taught him to shoot.

[Karen]

I have heard the news story, I wonder when we will know the whole truth of the situation if ever we do. It is all completely tragic.

At the age of eight, I knew where the all guns in the house were, but was not allowed to fire any of them, and was taught never, ever, ever to fool around with them or even pretend to pull a trigger or point one at someone in jest.

[blue]

Is this the story?


8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father
Police Investigating Possible Abuse As Motive In Double-Murder; Father's Friend Also Killed

Comments 99

ST. JOHNS, Ariz., Nov. 8, 2008



(AP) Police in this small eastern Arizona community are looking into the possibility that an 8-year-old boy who is charged with killing his father and another man with a rifle had been abused, the police chief said Saturday.

The boy, who faces two counts of premeditated murder, did not act on the spur of the moment, Police Chief Roy Melnick said.

"I'm not accusing anybody of anything at this point," he said Saturday. "But we're certainly going to look at the abuse part of this. He's 8 years old. He just doesn't decide one day that he's going to shoot his father and shoot his father's friend for no reason. Something led up to this."

A judge determined Friday that there was probable cause to show the boy fatally shot his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos, with a .22-caliber rifle.

Under Arizona law, charges can be filed against anyone 8 or older. The judge ordered a psychological evaluation.

The boy had no record of complaints with Arizona Child Protective Services, said Apache County Attorney Brad Carlyon.

"He had no record of any kind, not even a disciplinary record at school," he said. "He has never been in trouble before."

In a sign of the emotional and legal complexities of the case, police are pushing to have the boy tried as an adult even as they investigate possible abuse, Melnick said. If convicted as a minor, the boy could be sent to juvenile detention until he turns 18.

Police had responded to calls of domestic violence at the Romero home in the past, but authorities were searching records Saturday to determine when those calls were placed, Melnick said.

"We're going to use every avenue of the law that's available to us, but we're also looking at the human side," he said.

Melnick said officers arrived at Romero's home within minutes of the shooting Wednesday in St. Johns, which has a population of about 4,000 and is 170 miles northeast of Phoenix. They found one victim just outside the front door and the other dead in an upstairs room.

Romans had been renting a room at the Romero house, prosecutors said. Both men were employees of a construction company working at a power plant near St. Johns.

The boy went to a neighbor's house and said he "believed that his father was dead," Carlyon said.

Melnick said police got a confession, but the boy's attorney, Benjamin Brewer, said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights.

"They became very accusing early on in the interview," Brewer said. "Two officers with guns at their side, it's very scary for anybody, for sure an 8-year-old kid."

Prosecutors aren't sure where the case is headed, Carlyon said.

"There's a ton of factors to be considered and weighed, including the juvenile's age," he said. "The counterbalance against that, the acts that he apparently committed."

FBI statistics show instances of children younger than 11 committing homicides are very rare. According to recent FBI supplementary homicide reports, there were at least three such cases each year in 2003, 2004 and 2005; there were at least 15 in 2002. More recent statistics weren't available, nor were details of the cases.

Earlier this year in Arizona, prosecutors in Cochise County filed first-degree murder charges against a 12-year-old boy accused of killing his mother.

Defense attorney Mike Piccarreta, who is not involved in the latest case, said that each case has to be considered on its own merits, but that it would be hard for him to comprehend that an 8-year-old has the mental capacity to understand the act of murder and its implications.

"If they actually prosecute the guy, it's a legal minefield," he said. "And, two, society has to make a decision as to whether they want to start using the criminal justice system to deal with 8-year-olds. That doesn't mean you don't have a troubled kid."

Wednesday's homicides were the first in at least four years in the community, where most people know one another, Melnick said.

Romero had full custody of the child. The boy's biological mother visited St. Johns during the weekend from Mississippi and returned to Arizona after the shootings, Carlyon said.

Brewer said the boy "seems to be in good spirits.

"He's scared," he said. "He's trying to be tough, but he's scared."

Source. (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/08/national/main4586103.shtml)

[Alasse]

I am Australian, and am very thankful for the tight gun laws in our country.

I've never owned a gun, nor ever want to have one, i certainly do not want my kids anywhere near them either.

They are not something i believe every tom, dick and harry needs to have.

[ramanth]

Way to go dad! :eek: :rolleyes: :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UA8Uhn1I8o

[blue]

Way to go dad! :eek: :rolleyes: :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UA8Uhn1I8o

Now can you tell us the 4 things he did wrong in handling that firearm?

[ramanth]

Probably not four. Not that it matters as only one seriously wrong thing got him shot.

I own guns and grew up in a house with guns btw.

[RICHARD]

They are not something i believe every tom, dick and harry needs to have.

If you can get Dirty Harry's gun away from him......;)

[Edwina's Secretary]

Boys who find guns may ignore safety training
Even those coached otherwise will play with weapons

Tuesday, June 5, 2001

By M.A.J. MCKENNA
COX NEWS SERVICE

ATLANTA -- Boys who find a hidden gun will handle it, point it at each other and attempt to pull the trigger, even if they've been given coaching in gun safety and their parents think they can be trusted, according to a study performed in Atlanta.

The study, which is published in the June issue of the journal Pediatrics, was done by researchers at Emory University School of Medicine and Children's Healthcare of Atlanta-Egleston Hospital, and used 64 boys between 8 and 12 years of age.

The boys' parents, who are racially and demographically mixed, had participated in an earlier, larger survey by the same researchers. In that survey, three-fourths of gun-owning parents said that their children could tell the difference between a real gun and a toy, three-fourths said their child would leave a gun alone or go tell an adult they had found one and one-fourth said their child could be trusted with a loaded gun.

To test those assertions, the researchers set up an experiment.

Parents were asked to bring their child, plus a sibling or a playmate, to an exam room that included a one-way mirror. The room had toys scattered around it; there were also, concealed in several drawers, two water pistols and a real .380-caliber semiautomatic handgun. The gun contained no ammunition, but it had been modified with a radio transmitter that made lights flash whenever the trigger was pulled with enough force to fire an unmodified gun.

The kids and their companions, who made up 29 small groups, were left in the room and told the adults would return in 15 minutes, but would be outside the room if the children needed them. They were told they could play with the toys on display; they were not told about the water pistols or guns.

Within 15 minutes, 48 of the 64 boys had found the real gun. Almost half, 30 of the boys, handled it, including pointing it at each other and looking down the barrel. And 16 of the boys, one-fourth of those in the study, tried to pull the trigger.

None of the children knew that the gun was not loaded, and only a few of them left the room to fetch an adult. More than 90 percent of the kids had received some sort of gun-safety instruction from parents or at school before the experiment, and more than half of those who handled the firearm were thought by their parents to have no real interest in guns.

"All of us in this project support the idea of teaching children safety around guns, but this demonstrates that parents should not trust those lessons for a heartbeat," said Dr. Arthur Kellermann, chief of emergency medicine at Emory and a co-author of the study. "Boys are boys. They are naturally curious and adventurous. And given the opportunity, a substantial percentage will handle a real gun if they find one."

The study results underline the need to securely store guns kept at home and suggests making child-proofing guns a priority, Kellermann said. "Since we can't make kids gun proof, why can't we make guns kid proof?" he added.

National Rifle Association spokesman Andrew Arulanandam said the study used a "pretty puny" sample. "You can certainly assume that the findings are artificial," he said.

But psychologist Kevin Dwyer, a child-violence expert who was not involved in the research, called the results "extremely important." They suggest, he said, that just telling kids that they should not handle a gun is often not good enough.

"It means that we must have external control rather than education control, such as gun locks and reduced availability of firearms in situations where children can access them," Dwyer said.

Of course, your child will be different. You hope.

[Puckstop31]

Of course, your child will be different. You hope.

I KNOW.

You, ES, will NEVER understand this issue the way I do. Your culture and my culture are as different as night and day. The values you hold dear are most likely polar opposite mine.

I have no problem with that. Just you be careful when you try to impose YOUR will on me. You are free to be a urbanite, who relies on "experts" to tell you how to live. Keep your "wisdom" out of my house.

I prefer to be FREE. "Wisdom" imposed upon us by "experts", who gained their knowledge soley in a classroom... Slaves are made in such ways.

[Puckstop31]

BTW... ES...

Nothing to say in the 2nd Amendment thread? Surely you can agree that the 2nd Amendment is at the heart of this discussion? As smart as you are, you should be able to rebut all of our arguements... right?

[RICHARD]

This story made me laugh.

http://www.dailynews.com/search/ci_10955748?IADID=Search-www.dailynews.com-www.dailynews.com


Look at the training this band of merry eff ups has and they cannot be trusted to carry guns. Now, If they are stupid when they carry sober, what makes you think that they can carry drunk?

The head of the SO is another moron by thinking his peeps waiting for such a long time to rescing their right to carry while drunk.

Out here there has always been a rivalry between local city cops, the SD, LAPD, and Highway Patrol. His little thing about the different agencies helping a DUI fellow officer is BS. Within thier own depts. they would coverup for an officer, but if an LAPD cop was pulled over by a HP, you can bet your arse they would put them in jail.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Facts....about children and guns....

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/pdf/children.pdf

[Puckstop31]

First... Surely you do not think the Brady Campaign has just a smidgen of bias?

Next, tell me how these "facts" you present make a case to remove from our citizens a fundamental, God given, 2nd Amendment affirmed RIGHT?

If is always the same with people like you... "Oh the children. We need to enslave you for the children... Don't you care about the children...."

How many kids you got ES? Would you rather them live a life of individual responsibility and freedom, with a little 'risk; or have them live a life in bondage to government, but "safe"?

No wonder the nation is the way it is today... So many people are willing to give up their rights, for a false sense of "security".

[Lady's Human]

Nice massaging (cherry picking) of the stats by the Brady center.

Since when did a 19 year old count as a "child"?

It also talks about the "firearm injury epidemic" (epidemic? yeah, right....) without giving one whit of data to reference it to.

[Desert Arabian]

Hell will freeze over before anyone tries to take my guns away from me!!

Auto mobile accidents are the number one killer of people under the age of 18- so should children not be allowed to ride in vehicles until the age of 19? We must keep the kids safe!!!!

[blue]

Auto mobile accidents are the number one killer of people under the age of 18- so should children not be allowed to ride in vehicles until the age of 19? We must keep the kids safe!!!!


Its for the CHILDREN!

Driving is a privlage that kills more per year in America then the Right to Keep and Bear Arms does.

When did a privilage become more important then a Right?

[Edwina's Secretary]

Auto mobile accidents are the number one killer of people under the age of 18- so should children not be allowed to ride in vehicles until the age of 19? We must keep the kids safe!!!!

Automobiles are designed to move people and goods from one place to another.

Guns, especially handguns, are designed to kill people.

[blue]

Guns, especially handguns, are designed to kill people.

Let me fix it for you.

Guns, especially handguns, are designed to protect people and property.

[caseysmom]

Fixed it for you.

I don't have strong feeling in this debate but doesn't that violate some rules on pettalk..editing a quote like that?

[Edwina's Secretary]

I agree. Very poor form. But then...

If an person is killed by an automobile, the inanimate object has failed in its purpose.

If a person is killed by a gun, the inanimate object has succeeded in its purpose.

What I try and figure out is what do these gun people do that they need the protection of firepower?

I grew up in the country. I lived in Chicago for over 20 years. I have visited every major city in the United States and many major cities around the world. Often alone and on business.

Never felt the need for the protection of a gun. Never felt the need to kill someone.

Either some folks are easily frightened or there are far more evil things running around this country than I know!

[Lady's Human]

If an person is killed by an automobile, the inanimate object has failed in its purpose.

If a person is killed by a gun, the inanimate object has succeeded in its purpose.

Not true. Both are dependent on the person using the inanimate object.

Guns are frequently used to save people from harm, and vehicles are frequently used in assaults.

[Karen]

Changing quoted text is confusing to casual readers, and is disrespectful to the original poster. You can disagree, but in the future, please post your comments without putting words into other people's mouth. People who just read the post quickly will believe that the person being quoted believes something they are completely opposed to.

Understand?

[Edwina's Secretary]

Not true. Both are dependent on the person using the inanimate object.

Guns are frequently used to save people from harm, and vehicles are frequently used in assaults.

Automobiles were not invented to kill people. Guns were. That was my point and remains my point. And is quite true!

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Here you go: guns were invented to kill people:

http://www.blurtit.com/q993394.html

[Lady's Human]

Again, regardless of why they were created, they are still inanimate objects. They have no good or evil in them, their use is dependent on the will of the operator.

If you hate them because they were invented to kill, I hope you have no knives in your kitchen or hammers and axes in your toolbox.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Once again LH you overlook the obvious. Knives have many other uses. So do hammers and axes.

Guns are to kill. I do not think it is prudent to drive a nail with a handgun. Or peel fruit. Or cut down a tree.

[Puckstop31]

OK... Guns were invented to kill. What is your point?

Are we that weak a society that law abiding citizens cannot be entrusted with the capability to protect themselves?

[Lady's Human]

Sara, your latest (in this thread) objection to firearms is that they were created solely to kill.

So were knives.......other uses were found later.

Ditto for hammers, axes, etc.

Firearms have other uses as well (mainly recreational), you just choose to ignore them. They are also used as tools (nail guns, quite literally, and screw drivers which both use powder cartridges to drive the fastener home).

[Edwina's Secretary]

Sara, your latest (in this thread) objection to firearms is that they were created solely to kill.

So were knives.......other uses were found later.

Ditto for hammers, axes, etc.

Firearms have other uses as well (mainly recreational), you just choose to ignore them. They are also used as tools (nail guns, quite literally, and screw drivers which both use powder cartridges to drive the fastener home).

Really? Hammers were invented for the purpose of killing. Not...not for say...hammering? And knives. Not for cutting but for killing... Really?

Could you tell me where you get that idea?

I have a power screw driver and we have a nail gun around here as well.

But... neither one uses bullets.

Gun may be used for so-called recreation...but that is NOT the reason they were invented.

[Desert Arabian]

I love when naive people feel the need to spout their mouths on topics they are so ill-informed on. You really need to wake up Edwina’s Secretary and get your facts on guns straight- you’re making a clown of yourself.

Thanks for stating the obvious that firearms were designed to kill. Before the manufacturing of firearms people had to hunt with other means – tomahawks, bow/arrow, dart gun, knives – tools that are not as effective as a firearm. More than often the target is missed, clean kills are not made, and a very close range is needed to be effective. Using a firearm to hunt means that you can shoot animals at a much further distance, you can make more humane kills, have a chance of harvesting more than one animal at a time (as long as your aim is good ;) ), and lessens the chance that one would be hurt in the attempt to kill an animal. Would you (“you” being anyone- no one in particular) rather gallop along side a buffalo on horseback, then jump on to the back of the buffalo- slit its throat, then stab it in the heart after its fallen to finish it off – or shoot it with one shot from a firearm? Which method seems more efficient and effective? It was FIREARMS aka GUNS that helped America gain the freedom that we have today – they helped us win many battles- without them America would not be what it is today. Were many human lives lost because of it? Yes. So be it- that’s life.


And yes, knives were desgined to help butcher and kill- ANIMALS. Their sole intention was no to help one dice tomatoes and cut open your envelope to get your mail out, nor were they invented to kill people. Machete’s and meat cleavers make a great tool to use for beheading and hacking off body parts. Small knives like daggars help stab and slit throats. Skinning knives helped separate and remove skin and flesh from carcasses- hence the name. Gut hook knives help rip open a body cavity so one can field dress (remove internal organs) an animal. And the spear- well that’s just another amazing tool in its self – it’s like a throwable knife- without the bulkyness and clumsyness of a tomahawk or hatchet!!

ES, you keep preaching that guns are so bad and kids are in danger because of them. Well, let me tell you this twisted, little personal story. I moved out on my own two years ago- it was just me and my 2 rabbits- I lived in a very crime rampant part of Milwaukee. So, I had one of my shotguns locked and loaded in my bedroom for self protection. One day I came home to find my apartment broken in to- the screen slit open. I immediately ran in to my bedroom to find that my shotgun was gone. Want to know who stole my shotgun (and $1300 laptop)? A THIRTEEN YEAR OLD (13) CHILD. His mother called him in to the cops when she found out he commited the crime. Did I get my gun back? Nope! He refused to say who he gave it to- I have yet to recieve a call from the MPD saying that my gun has been found. Not all children are little angels.

[Edwina's Secretary]

ES, you keep preaching that guns are so bad and kids are in danger because of them. Well, let me tell you this twisted, little personal story. I moved out on my own two years ago- it was just me and my 2 rabbits- I lived in a very crime rampant part of Milwaukee. So, I had one of my shotguns locked and loaded in my bedroom for self protection. One day I came home to find my apartment broken in to- the screen slit open. I immediately ran in to my bedroom to find that my shotgun was gone. Want to know who stole my shotgun (and $1300 laptop)? A THIRTEEN YEAR OLD (13) CHILD. His mother called him in to the cops when she found out he commited the crime. Did I get my gun back? Nope! He refused to say who he gave it to- I have yet to recieve a call from the MPD saying that my gun has been found. Not all children are little angels.

What a perfect story to illustrate my point! Your gun was not used to protect you. It was stolen and given or sold to someone who will probably use it to commit a crime.

Well done!

So you are advocating shooting 13 year old boys?

Isn't keeping a loaded gun around one of those gun safety no-nos? Or am I just being naive again?

[caseysmom]

Whats with all the name calling lately??? ES is naive and a clown because she has a different opinion than you?

Like I said before I don't feel very strong either way on this issue but your story did not prove any point in favor of guns in my opinion.

[Desert Arabian]

What a perfect story to illustrate my point! Your gun was not used to protect you. It was stolen and given or sold to someone who will probably use it to commit a crime.

Well done!

So you are advocating shooting 13 year old boys?

Isn't keeping a loaded gun around one of those gun safety no-nos? Or am I just being naive again?

Don't you dare shove words in my mouth!!!!!!! Why would I want to shoot a 13 year old kid? Hmm, well maybe if he shot at me first in attempt to kill me?! That's a whole 'nother arguement, and your not the one I feel like wasting my time on with that.

Yes, you are correct- my firearm was most likely given to someone and is being used to commit a crime. My firearm is in the hands of some sick, twisted, mentally disturbed indivdual who is using it in senseless crimes. BLAME THE PERSON NOT THE GUN! When the gun was in my hands- it was safe. My safety was violated when that little kid slit the screen and entered my home without permission. Thank god I was not home- what would he have done if he stumbled upon me inside? Was he armed? Would he have attempted to hurt me - or just flee and run? Who knows.

Keeping a loaded gun in a home with children, within reach of children is a very large safety issue! Do I have children? Did children ever enter my residence? NO. Had a child entered my home, the firearm would have been unloaded, place in a gun case, and well hidden out of view. Keeping an undloaded firearm for protection serves no purpose. I would be shot (and killed ?) before I even had a chance to retireve the ammuntion, attempt to load it in to my gun, and pull the trigger in defense.

[Desert Arabian]

Whats with all the name calling lately??? ES is naive and a clown because she has a different opinion than you?

Like I said before I don't feel very strong either way on this issue but your story did not prove any point in favor of guns in my opinion.

It has nothing to do with the fact that she has an opposite view of mine - it's the fact that she is not well educated on firearms, does not have a slightest clue about the topic, yet tries to preach as if she does. Get facts straight before making statements- otherwise you look like a fool.

[caseysmom]

Seems she has done her fair share of research, yes it may be from the american academy of pediatrics and not from the NRA so she does sound foolish:rolleyes:

[Puckstop31]

Seems she has done her fair share of research, yes it may be from the american academy of pediatrics and not from the NRA so she does sound foolish:rolleyes:


All that "research" does is tug at heart strings of emotional people. It does not make a case as to why a fundamental, God given, 2nd Amendment confirmed right should be removed from supposedly FREE, law abiding US citizens.

A thief steals a gun. So we ban the gun? PUH-LEASE. That has to be the most absurd "logic" ever.

God, I cannot wait to get the hell out of the city. Out in an area where EVERYBODY is armed and crime is nearly non-existent. Good ole' leave the doors unlocked**, everybody is welcome, "fly over country".

**City folk need not apply. Please stay contained in your cages.

/rant

Yes, this is the Puckstop31 you all hate. I am having a one night relapse because I am sick of the uneducated, emotional nonsense.

[blue]

Since some have a limited sense of humor and to avoid confusion I editted my earlier post. "Fixing" the quote wasnt done out of spite or to cause any confusion, it was my attempt at a funnay which is why I used the red letterring.

___

If a person uses an automobile as a weapon to cause harm or to kill another the innanimate object did not fail in its intended use by the operator.

___

When a criminal kills someone with a gun yes ES is correct.

When a legal gun owner uses a gun to kill someone trying to rape a woman, ES is correct. When a legal gun owner uses a gun to protect themselves or their loved ones from an attacker, ES is again correct.

Im sure even ES can see the difference.

___

Honest people who argue for the protection of the 2nd Amendment hope to never need to use their firearms against another human being, they do not go out looking for an excuse to brandish or use their weapon. Owning guns isnt allways about protection as both I and Puck have pointed out.

___

Ive been to Chicago a few times now visiting my brother. I never felt the need to illegally carry there or felt threatened there, even while wanderring unfamiliar streets at 4am drunk alone.

___

ES, I never felt the need to kill someone either, but I once thought I would have to to protect myself.

___

Cannons are destructive devices and allways have been, not a fire arm by definition. They where invented as a defensive fixed weapon and later made into a mobile offensive weapon.

___

Proficiency with firearms is an Olympic event. It seems the use of firearms is more then just killing people.

___

I had a shotgun stolen as well, allmost the same circumstances as Desert Arabian. The APD has the serial number and to date it has not been recovered. The theif moved a far more valuable rifle and my 77 Jazz bass out of the way to take the shotgun, criminals are dumb.

___

ES have you ever been to the Highland Games and watched the Hammer Toss?

Why is what it was invented for and what it is used for, a meaningfull arguement? Charles Manson once told the parole board "I can kill you with this book!"

___

ES, how is quoting what Desert Arabian posted and completely twisting it to mean something that was a polar opposite to what was meant not poor form? I admit that I have done the exact same thing and I freely admit that it was poor form and confusing to the casual reader.

___

Caseysmom, copy and pasting from the AAP would be the same as me copy and pasting from the NRA. It is bias and not fact. If ES based her opinions on the CDC or FBI raw numbers she would have a much stronger footing on her stance against firearms.

[caseysmom]

All that "research" does is tug at heart strings of emotional people. It does not make a case as to why a fundamental, God given, 2nd Amendment confirmed right should be removed from supposedly FREE, law abiding US citizens.

A thief steals a gun. So we ban the gun? PUH-LEASE. That has to be the most absurd "logic" ever.

God, I cannot wait to get the hell out of the city. Out in an area where EVERYBODY is armed and crime is nearly non-existent. Good ole' leave the doors unlocked**, everybody is welcome, "fly over country".

**City folk need not apply. Please stay contained in your cages.

/rant

Yes, this is the Puckstop31 you all hate. I am having a one night relapse because I am sick of the uneducated, emotional nonsense.

Awww this is the puck we have all grown to love:D if you get too obnoxious we just sic sparks on ya...

I just like to see a fair fight...and I agree with blue the twising of desert arabians words did not constitute a fair fight either...

now everone..take twenty steps and unholster your guns:D

[sparks19]

Well argue all you want... to me it doesn't matter. YOU will not be the ones protecting my family and my daughter IF the unthinkable should happen. Do I live my life in fear? No I do not. I enjoy my life. I try to wake each day with a smile on my face and in my heart and enjoy everyday I have. You don't like that we have guns in our house... tough. it doesn't make a lick of difference to me because again... YOu will NOT be the one coming to my rescue if a criminal were to have their way.

Do I sit here in my house daily and think "Gosh I need a gun to protect myself from the awful world" ... NOpe. but I also don't sit here and think daily "Gosh I need a fire extinguisher in case a completely random fire were to break out in my home" but I still have one. Yes yes... I know what is coming next from the nay sayers "a fire extinguisher isn't intended to kill people" and you're right... it's not. But it will help me fight against the unthinkable... and I will have it to protect my family. Just as I will not go down without one HELL of a fight if someone comes in with the intent to hurt me and my precious innocent daughter.

YOu don't have to like it and you can argue against it all you want... but I don't really care... it falls on deaf ears. My daughters care is in MY hands and my husbands hands and I will NOT rely on anyone else to protect her in such a situation. by the time the cops come... it will be too late... so in the meantime I will do whatever it takes.

[sparks19]

Awww this is the puck we have all grown to love:D if you get too obnoxious we just sic sparks on ya...

I just like to see a fair fight...and I agree with blue the twising of desert arabians words did not constitute a fair fight either...

now everone..take twenty steps and unholster your guns:D

LOL I have said it before...

he's like a good beer... an aquired taste but can be a lot of fun if you just give it a chance LOL

[blue]

Well argue all you want... to me it doesn't matter. YOU will not be the ones protecting my family and my daughter IF the unthinkable should happen. Do I live my life in fear? No I do not. I enjoy my life. I try to wake each day with a smile on my face and in my heart and enjoy everyday I have. You don't like that we have guns in our house... tough. it doesn't make a lick of difference to me because again... YOu will NOT be the one coming to my rescue if a criminal were to have their way.

Do I sit here in my house daily and think "Gosh I need a gun to protect myself from the awful world" ... NOpe. but I also don't sit here and think daily "Gosh I need a fire extinguisher in case a completely random fire were to break out in my home" but I still have one. Yes yes... I know what is coming next from the nay sayers "a fire extinguisher isn't intended to kill people" and you're right... it's not. But it will help me fight against the unthinkable... and I will have it to protect my family. Just as I will not go down without one HELL of a fight if someone comes in with the intent to hurt me and my precious innocent daughter.

YOu don't have to like it and you can argue against it all you want... but I don't really care... it falls on deaf ears. My daughters care is in MY hands and my husbands hands and I will NOT rely on anyone else to protect her in such a situation. by the time the cops come... it will be too late... so in the meantime I will do whatever it takes.

FTW!

[Edwina's Secretary]

Just as I will not go down without one HELL of a fight if someone comes in with the intent to hurt me and my precious innocent daughter.

YOu don't have to like it and you can argue against it all you want... but I don't really care... it falls on deaf ears.


Oh that's okay Sparky. I don't buy anything the gun lovers are selling either!

I now understand some people feel the need to have guns because they are afraid of the military taking over as stated earlier. And I think I understand others to say they live in really bad places full of really bad people just waiting to harm them. And they are very, very frightened of other people. And that the only way they can assuage their fears is by having instruments created for killing those people handy.

I do not live in this cage of fear.

And this thread has made me realize how very, very angry and scared some people are. And I am sorry they have to live life with all this fear and anger. It must be very limiting.

[sparks19]

Good for you!

I'm neither angry or frightened to live my life :)

[Lady's Human]

ES, I'm neither angry nor scared.

It amuses me that anyone who disagrees with you in this thread is somethow suffering form some mental illness of some sort.

Prima facia evidence of elitism.

[lizbud]

Prima facia evidence of elitism.


You think so, do you? I believe it's a sign of a very well adjusted adult.:)

I also think folks who have to have a gun in their house to feel safe from
our government are maybe, a tiny bit paranoid. "the bogeyman is everywhere"

[sparks19]

Think of me what you will :)

But your judgement of me is not going to keep me from protecting my daughter IF the unthinkable were to happen.

judge away :)

[Lady's Human]

Liz, that's why we will never agree on this issue.

To you and ES, having a gun is evidence of mental illness.

To those of us who choose to exercise our second amendment rights, posession of a firearm is merely a logical extension of the boy scout motto.....Be prepared.

It's not paranoia, it's not living in fear, it's not being afraid of the guy next to us on the street, it's being prepared, nothing else.

[Edwina's Secretary]

ES, I'm neither angry nor scared.

It amuses me that anyone who disagrees with you in this thread is somethow suffering form some mental illness of some sort.

Prima facia evidence of elitism.

I am so glad we amuse one another....What are people who disagree with you? Brilliant? Well-grounded? Right?

After all the names you have called me? Now you add elitist!

You're so cute when you run out of arguments...

[lizbud]

Liz, that's why we will never agree on this issue.

To you and ES, having a gun is evidence of mental illness.

To those of us who choose to exercise our second amendment rights, posession of a firearm is merely a logical extension of the boy scout motto.....Be prepared.

It's not paranoia, it's not living in fear, it's not being afraid of the guy next to us on the street, it's being prepared, nothing else.


Oh, I think we may agree more than you think. I am a gun owner myself,
but I don't worship guns ,nor think they are the answer to the crime problems
or the governmental whims.