Cruel & Outdated Training Methods

[lizbud]

Another, better method would be to send these medics to any big city
trauma unit for a few weeks on the job training.There is no shortage of
needy patients who need treatment there.




US Army to shoot live pigs in Hawaii in trauma training drill for soldiers heading to Iraq
The Associated PressPublished: July 18, 2008


HONOLULU: The U.S. Army is moving forward with plans to shoot live pigs and treat their gunshot wounds in a medical trauma exercise Friday for soldiers headed to Iraq.

The Army says it's critical to saving the lives of wounded soldiers. Animal-rights activists call the training cruel and outdated.

Maj. Derrick Cheng, spokesman for the 25th Infantry Division, said the training is being conducted under a U.S. Department of Agriculture license and the careful supervision of veterinarians and a military Animal Care and Use Committee.

"It's to teach Army personnel how to manage critically injured patients within the first few hours of their injury," Cheng said.

The soldiers are learning emergency lifesaving skills needed on the battlefield when there are no medics, doctors or facility nearby, he said.

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People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, however, said there are more advanced and humane options available, including high-tech human simulators. In a letter, PETA urged the Army to end all use of animals, "as the overwhelming majority of North American medical schools have already done."

"Shooting and maiming pigs is outdated as Civil War rifles," said Kathy Guillermo, director of PETA's Laboratory Investigations Department.

The group demanded the exercise be halted after it was notified by a "distraught" soldier from the unit, who disclosed a plan to shoot the animals with M4 carbines and M16 rifles.

"There's absolutely no reason why they have to shoot live pigs," PETA spokeswoman Holly Beal said.

The bloody exercise, she said, is difficult for soldiers because they sometimes associate the animals with their own pet dogs.

Cheng said the exercise is conducted in a controlled environment with the pigs anesthetized the entire time. He had "no doubt whatsoever" in the effectiveness of the instruction, which he called the best option available at the base.

"Those alternative methods just can't replicate what the troops are going to face when we use live-tissue training," he said. "What we're doing is unique to what the soldiers are going to actually experience."

Cheng didn't have details about the number of pigs, how they were acquired or the weapons involved in the training.

The soldiers being trained are with the 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division, which is deploying to Iraq this year.

"We understand (PETA's) concerns and point of view. At the same, the Army is committed to providing the soldiers with the best training possible," Cheng said.

Disappointed at the Army's decision, PETA on Thursday instructed its 2 million members to inundate the Army with calls and e-mails.

"We're hoping at the 11th hour here that we can have this stopped. We have to hang on to hope," Beal said.

PETA believes the U.S. military has conducted similar training at other bases using pigs and goats.

[shepgirl]

H S is this for real? I can't believe the army would do something like that. No better than those labs that keep live animals for experimenting....

[lizbud]

H S is this for real? I can't believe the army would do something like that. No better than those labs that keep live animals for experimenting....


Unfortunately yes, it is true. Totally cruel & unnecessary, but true.:mad:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/18/army.shoot.pigs.ap/index.html

[moosmom]

That's disgusting!!! They should train them using George Dubbya. Now that's a REAL pig!!:mad:

[RICHARD]

Pigs have the closest physical 'makeup' to humans as far as some body physiology goes.

Battle wounds are far different than regular ER wounds. Bullets don't just put two little holes in a body that can be mended with a torn t-shirt. That's Hollywood BS.


A ballistic gel model will give you an idea as to what a bullet does, but does nothing to answer the question of the amount of treatment needed to keep a victim alive. I guess it's more important to keep pigs alive that it is to think about a soldier's welfare!

If PETA has such problems with this kind of study, they should protest the use of porcine heart valves that may extend the life of a loved one.;)

----------

But then again-
If I was a soldier that was wounded in battle and I knew the medic or doctor was trained by studying wounded pigs, I wouldn't let him touch me.

I guess I'd be mad if he ate pork chops and bacon, too!:mad:


----------


In the Air Force PJ program, each student does a turn at an ER.

[Mariya22]

This is really ridiculous....

[lizbud]

Battle wounds are far different than regular ER wounds. Bullets don't just put two little holes in a body that can be mended with a torn t-shirt. That's Hollywood BS.


A ballistic gel model will give you an idea as to what a bullet does, but does nothing to answer the question of the amount of treatment needed to keep a victim alive. I guess it's more important to keep pigs alive that it is to think about a soldier's welfare!


I don't know about LA, but Indy has had 13 shooting victims in the last 2 weeks time. ( I haven't checked yet today) Bad guys also use automatic
weapons, even Ak47s in cities all over the US. It's bloody out there.:(

It's also disingenuous to suggest this is a Either/Or question. We can treat and save more soldiers by treating real human victims.If this is a training to
save people & not just practice shooting live animals, using hospitals for
teaching on human models is a much better option. IMO.

[Lady's Human]

Bad guys also use automatic
weapons, even Ak47s in cities all over the US. It's bloody out there.

Not true. Most of what's reported in the media as "AK-47's" aren't.

That aside, if I'm reading the story correctly, it states that this training is for soldiers were medics aren't available....

which means it's not your average private taking the training. All infantry platoons have a medic attached, and one combat lifesaver (CLS) per squad, in many cases one CLS per fire team. The medics take part in EMT training and work in emergency rooms as part of their training.

That pretty much narrows down who the students in this course are, and also means that the person who reported to the media isn't very popular with his fellow soldiers, if he's still in the unit at all.

[lizbud]

That pretty much narrows down who the students in this course are, and also means that the person who reported to the media isn't very popular with his fellow soldiers, if he's still in the unit at all.


Why would he be unpopular? because he felt sick to his stomach seeing
animals being shot up? The big wuss.:(

Will he finally big a big man when he starts killing people?

[Lady's Human]

Unpopular because he violated the trust of a small, tightly knit community by going to the media. They're not talking about regular soldiers in this article.

[lizbud]

Unpopular because he violated the trust of a small, tightly knit community by going to the media. They're not talking about regular soldiers in this article.


Oh LH, give me a break.:rolleyes:

[Lady's Human]

Have you ever been in the military, helped train soldiers, been in a small unit, trained with the same soldiers for years?

Civilians will just never understand.

[lizbud]

If you don't have a real answer to the subject of a thread, you always
attempt to change the subject. Why is that, do ya suppose?


Oh, never mind. I'm done with this back & forth. :rolleyes:

[Lady's Human]

The subject of the article was military training.

My comments were about the training in question. The only comment I made that wasn't directly related to the article was to correct a constant media lie about firearms.

Other than that, I fail to see where I attempted to change the topic.

I could cast aspersions on an entire community like you did with your

Will he finally big a big man when he starts killing people? , but I'll refrain.

[RICHARD]

I don't know about LA, but Indy has had 13 shooting victims in the last 2 weeks time. ( I haven't checked yet today) Bad guys also use automatic
weapons, even Ak47s in cities all over the US. It's bloody out there.:(

It's also disingenuous to suggest this is a Either/Or question.

Why, I am the most disingenuous person I know.

If every person in Indianapolis is shot with an automatic rifle, it's time to move. I really find shooting people to be disingenuous, Beat them up, the jail terms are far less severe - and you save money on bullets.

At the risk of sounding disingenuous, check out the crime stats for your area and see if they are broken down by type of crime and what the criminal used to shoot the victim.

----------------

I think that the disingenuous government should put the students into every ER room on the planet.

This way they can train on overdoses, the flu and treating kids that shove beans into their orifices while they wait for the disingenuous citizens to lay waste to each other..... The ERs can cut the "Golden Hour" to the time it takes to shuffle the troops over to the hospital where they are needed.



I really think that it's a wonderful idea to let 'trainees' make mistakes on real people. That way, they'll get it right when it does count.

[jennielynn1970]

Have you ever been in the military, helped train soldiers, been in a small unit, trained with the same soldiers for years?

Civilians will just never understand.

Oh please. You sound like my brother. He's ex-Navy. I have nothing against the soldiers who are fighting, they just take the orders and do what they are told.

What I don't understand is this "superiority" that we, mere civilians, get when we disagree with military ideals and training.

[Cinder & Smoke]

I really think that it's a wonderful idea to let 'trainees' make mistakes on real people.
That way, they'll get it right when it does count.

;)
Nice point, Richard.

But the long 'silence' hints that not everyone "got it".

:p

[RICHARD]

Off the subject, but in the same vein...

Have you ever noticed that we will bring people into our country to perform a 'new surgery'? The cases are usually some tough 10 hour plus cuts that involve multiple specialties.

For example, Siamese twins joined at the head.

Start off with an orthopod, vascular and brain surgeon. Add all the other folks in the room, circulating nurses, anesthesiologist, anesthetist...

At the press conference you will most always hear this, "It was a tough surgery, We never have done a case like this, We'll know when we get there."

Those cases have a 'humanitarian' shine on the outside, but my guess is that there are a few doctors involved with a new 'revolutionary' procedure that they are not willing perform or haven't yet performed it on a patient because of the risks involved.

Those risks include lawsuits, getting your license pinched and ?????


A third world patient(s) that die on the operating table are less likely to call lawyer should something go wrong.

Health care has always been a 'shot in the dark' when it comes to saving lives.

Some where, some place it started with some unlucky soul, human or animal, that gave countless others a second chance at life. LOL, one of the luckiest guys in the world is the one that woke up after the first successful ----------------- surgery.

Imagine how many they got wrong before that? The key word is when the doctor finishes and says "Successful"!;):eek:

[Lady's Human]

In combat lifesaver training, we used some of those "modern training dummies" to practice giving someone an IV. They don't even begin to simulate giving an IV to a living being. Damned near everyone got the IV stick on the dummy correctly, time after time.

On live fellow soldiers, however, it was a different story. I think everyone in that class had at least one bruise from improper sticks, and that was healthy, well hydrated people. Not someone who was dying from blood loss and massive trauma.

Dummies just don't simulate well enough, and I think there might be some real issues with recruiting if we started using trainees as live practice for gunshot wounds.

[RICHARD]

On live fellow soldiers, however, it was a different story. I think everyone in that class had at least one bruise from improper sticks, and that was healthy, well hydrated people. Not someone who was dying from blood loss and massive trauma.



I saw a documentary on the AF para-rescuers training.

I got the willies when they showed an exercise where they were trying to evaluate a 'wounded' comrade. They had him taped to a backboard, bouncing around while they were running, shooting and trying to start IVs.

Bruises?;):eek:

[lizbud]

Oh please. You sound like my brother. He's ex-Navy. I have nothing against the soldiers who are fighting, they just take the orders and do what they are told.

What I don't understand is this "superiority" that we, mere civilians, get when we disagree with military ideals and training.


I believe this is a case of everdosing on the Kool aid.:D

I have heard that when the military person is discharged, they are allowed
to have their own brains back. Maybe not all do.:D

[Karen]

I believe this is a case of everdosing on the Kool aid.:D

I have heard that when the military person is discharged, they are allowed
to have their own brains back. Maybe not all do.:D

What do you have against the men and women serving in our military? Why so prejudicial against them?

[Grace]

In combat lifesaver training, we used some of those "modern training dummies" to practice giving someone an IV. They don't even begin to simulate giving an IV to a living being. Damned near everyone got the IV stick on the dummy correctly, time after time.

On live fellow soldiers, however, it was a different story. I think everyone in that class had at least one bruise from improper sticks, and that was healthy, well hydrated people. Not someone who was dying from blood loss and massive trauma.

Dummies just don't simulate well enough, and I think there might be some real issues with recruiting if we started using trainees as live practice for gunshot wounds.

When I was in Nursing School, we did practice on the dummy arm first, then a classmate. However, there is a limit to what you can do or not do to another human being.

Would you have all med students and nursing students go out and shoot pigs just so they could get some experience?

I took ACLS classes and learned enough using a dummy that I was able to intubate and start jugular IVs on real people.

[jennielynn1970]

What do you have against the men and women serving in our military? Why so prejudicial against them?

She didn't say she did.

Neither did I.

Is there an issue with people stating their opinions on here??

I questioned the attitude received by many of them, that superiority they seem to think they have.

I think they are are over there and doing their duty because that is what they are being told to do. They can't say "I don't want to go." Whether they believe they are actually fighting a just war is an entirely separate issue.

Patriotism has nothing to do with supporting war.

It has to do with supporting the men and women who are doing their jobs.

One of the kids I taught in school has a phrase on her MySpace that I quite like. "Bombing for Peace is like F^@$ing for Virginity."

[Lady's Human]

In med school, or an ER, you have two luxuries the military doesn't.....

Time and a controlled environment.

Once the soldier in question goes through the training, very likely the next time they have to put the skills into use is on a battlefield.....with no one else around, or with enough time to assist .....crappy conditions while you're trying to keep your buddy alive long enough to get to proper medical attention.

Again, though, this training method is NOT being used for every soldier in the military. As stated in the article, it's for soldiers who are not within range of normal medical support (medics, combat lifesavers, docs). That pretty much limits it to LRRP's (long range recon patrollers) and guys who wear funny green hats.

It's being discussed as though it's common practice throughout the military, when in fact it's a very small percentage who are using this training method.

[Karen]

I do not think he was displaying "superiority" as was accused.

I do think, for example, if a forensic detective told me something relating to her training, I wouldn't contradict him or her just because I have seen things on TV that makes me think I know better. Why should it be any different for soldiers?

[Grace]

In med school, or an ER, you have two luxuries the military doesn't.....

Time and a controlled environment.


Med school - probably. But the ER - that can turn on a dime, and you have no time and most certainly no control. 6 come in from an accident with only 2 empty beds. I've done it. And I never had a pig to practice my skills on.

I grant you battle field conditions are waaay different. But certainly one doesn't need to shoot pigs. Before these people are sent to the combat zone, they should have received at least a semblance of training in a big city ER. That would definitely prepare them. For goodness sakes, the article says the pigs are anesthetized. What possible good can that do - in combat they are going to be confronted with semi-comatose patients, maybe even some who are combative. The ER would love it if their patients came in asleep.

And if the military has the time for them to learn from a pig, then there certainly is enough time to send them to an ER.

Just another case of poor planning from the git-go.

[Lady's Human]

You're assuming one thing....

Time.

We normally take someone from a basic first aid level of training to combat lifesaver (Iv's, advanced stabilization, wound treatment beyond first aid) in about 5-10 days. Normally it's done in that timespan due to operational needs.


As far as the ER goes, if you find me an ER which will take non-medical specialty trained soldiers and let them into the ER for hands on treatment training, you're on. Somehow I sincerely doubt that either the general public or the insurance companies would ever let that happen.

[Grace]

You're assuming one thing....

Time.

We normally take someone from a basic first aid level of training to combat lifesaver (Iv's, advanced stabilization, wound treatment beyond first aid) in about 5-10 days. Normally it's done in that timespan due to operational needs.


As far as the ER goes, if you find me an ER which will take non-medical specialty trained soldiers and let them into the ER for hands on treatment training, you're on. Somehow I sincerely doubt that either the general public or the insurance companies would ever let that happen.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm not sure what you mean by that. As I stated in my previous post, poor planning from the beginning. And the pigs are the victims - this time.

What about putting them in one of the medical units in Iraq - or Afghanistan - or the hospital in Germany? But then they would be practicing on the poor servicemen and women who are injured - again the result of poor planning.

BTW - who is "we"?

[Lady's Human]

It's not poor planning, it's reality.

Medical skills are an add on to other skills. If I'm reading the original story correctly,these are most likely soldiers who are highly trained infantrymen (Lrsd, spec ops) who are learning emergency med care prior to deployment. NOT average soldiers.

Even in spec ops units, you have a fair amount of turnover. You need X number of trained CLS or other emergency med care specialists (normally around 20% of the soldiers in your units). One or more soldiers rotate to another unit, the skills have to be replaced, whether the incoming soldiers want to replace those skills or not.

You WANTED to go to med school. The soldiers are being told "Here's your new job....and you also have to learn emergency medical care in addition to your MOS"


As to "we", I'm recently retired, but I had to assist training CLS several times during my career, and trained soldiers throughout my career.

CLS doesn't involve shooting pigs, the class the article is referring to is an extremely small number of soldiers.

[Grace]

Back to the original point of this topic. It seems that the military uses pigs in other ways that could also be labeled animal cruelty.

Link to article. (http://network.bestfriends.org/vermont/news/27066.html)



It's not poor planning, it's reality.

No it was poor planning from the very beginning. Think May 1, 2003 - Mission Accomplished

[Lady's Human]

We're going to have to agree to disagree.

Poor planning for 200 years? Somehow I doubt that. TRADOC has it's issues, but they do have a pretty good idea about how to train soldiers.

[Grace]

We're going to have to agree to disagree.

Poor planning for 200 years? Somehow I doubt that. TRADOC has it's issues, but they do have a pretty good idea about how to train soldiers.

Yes, we do disagree and neither of us will change the other's mind. No problem.

Not sure where you got that 200 year figure. I was referring to the much more recent past - 2003. That's only 5 years by my calculations http://bestsmileys.com/school/4.gif

[lizbud]

What do you have against the men and women serving in our military? Why so prejudicial against them?


I have absolutely nothing against any military man or woman. It's the
the military mind-set that some take with them when they leave the service.
It doesn't mesh well with the "real" world where we all have an equal voice.

All the men in my family served in the military. No women that I know of.

[Lady's Human]

Though you say you have nothing against the military, your comments about "drinking the kool aid" and when someone gets to be a "big man" certainly show otherwise.

[jennielynn1970]

I have absolutely nothing against any military man or woman. It's the military mind-set that some take with them when they leave the service. It doesn't mesh well with the "real" world where we all have an equal voice.



I agree. It's also annoying when, if you don't agree with them, you are then accused of having something against the military, the USA, or being unpatriotic. It's a bit single minded.