Sep. 11th Picture!

[Rottieluver45]

My sister found this pic on the internet and I wanted to show you guys!It`s supposed to be an angel!http://www.artbell.com/images/wtcangel.jpg

[Logan]

I don't know if that picture depicts it, but I truly believe there were Angels there, that day. :)

[Soledad]

I remember all the hoopla over the devil's face in smoke, and I think that turned out to be a hoax. Internet pictures often have dubious origins. It's too large to be a bird, I bet it's just been imposed on there. I guess it's the sentiment that counts, though.

[Ann]

Soledad, I too am positive it's a computer made picute. However, I remember reading somewhere that the "devil in the smoke" picture actually was real and non-modified, but I honestly don't belive that.

Anyways, let's for a moment say that there ARE angels in reality, shouldn't they just have prevented this whole thing from happening all together instead of just flying around in the area afterwards? I guess that's one of the many reasons why I don't have any "faith".

[lovemymaltese]

I am positive that angels were there that day and working overtime. I am not sure that I trust the picture, looks more like a bird to me. But what a beautiful idea. We don't have to see the angels to know they were there.

[Rottieluver45]

Here`s the one with the devil in the smoke! http://www.artbell.com/images/wtcsmokedevil.jpg I think it`s real! Do you guys?

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Circumstances like this are solely because of mans free will. When God created man one of the most powerful traits that was given to us is free will. I don't know if the pictures were doctored or not but I do know that God is always with us and loves us ... but humans make their own dicisions.

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
Circumstances like this are solely because of mans free will. When God created man one of the most powerful traits that was given to us is free will. I don't know if the pictures were doctored or not but I do know that God is always with us and loves us ... but humans make their own dicisions.

Well said Sara. :)

This picture is not real...anyone could have made it look like that.

[Rottieluver45]

Originally posted by NoahsMommy


Well said Sara. :)


Very well said!

[Ann]

Originally posted by popcornbird
Ann, there ARE angels in reality. Angels are not supposed to stop things from happening; God has written down everything that happens, not the angels. The angels are servants of God. If you recall the 9 miners stuck in the mines just a few weeks ago; how they were miraculously saved. Its God, and no one but God, who saved them. Such incidents greatly increase my faith.

If it is like you said and God writes down everything that will happen (he must get quite a sore hand ;)), then the picture of the Devil in the smoke can't be real. Cause by saying what you just did, you are saying that God WANTED 9/11 to happen, and that the Devil had nothing to do with it.

Maybe you should try to accept that not everyone believes in the Christian faith. It's like the whole porn thread that was closed down and stopped from having an intellectual discussion, for you to sit there and say that your Christian God makes all the rules and makes everything happen, it's so very close-minded. I don't care if you people want to believe in an almighty God and I most certainly do not go around and say that your beliefs are silly (unless provoked, like now), and I just wish you people would show the same sort of respect towards non-believers.

Oh well, I'm sure this thread will be closed too, right? Isn't it funny that non-pet related topics are all fine and dandy as long as it contains the TYPICAL views of people. The God-loving, porn-hating, USA-loving stuff but as soon as someone will say something that goes against those typical believes, it is judges as non-fitting for Pet Talk and will be closed down. It's just not fair.

[Soledad]

Things certainly have been heating up here lately on PetTalk. I quite like it, but I know it makes others uncomfortable. However, Ann, we may just be in the minority and have to accept that most people here just want this site to be light and not have to have intellectual debates. They usually end badly, anyway. However, I am always keen to have an exchange so feel free to PM me or email me if you get flustered or want to discuss something.

If it helps you out any, I too am a non-believer on PetTalk. I don't find that anyone singles me out because of it, but there is a presumption that everyone believes the same thing more or less.

Here's my take on the whole angel/God thing:

No one can prove conclusively that God/angels exist. There is no proof, but there is faith. Faith is the ability to believe in something which you have no concrete proof, but you take that leap and you trust in it. I grew up Catholic, and I always remember the priest saying "now we will celebrate the mystery of faith"....I think that sums it up well. I find faith to be quite a beautiful thing, but it is a personal thing.

My issue with people who are deeply religious is when they take faith for fact and insist that everyone believe. But I think religion can be quite useful for some, I just don't have much need for it and don't need to be told otherwise. Just like I don't tell others that they shouldn't have faith.

Ann, are you familiar with Dawkins or evolutionary psychology? I think you'd be very interested in it.

[Rottieluver45]

I`m so sorry if this topic is offending anyone!! Do you want me to delete it?

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

No one can prove conclusively that God/angels exist. There is no proof, but there is faith.
I generally don't like confrontation and try to stay out of a topic once people feel they are being offended but I just want to interject this one time and ,,, I am by no means trying to attack anyone or offend anyone... but I am a christian and I have to dissagree with the above quote. I and many others that I know have seen the works of God happen with our own eyes. Things like this are no coincidence (sp?). The Bible is one of the most awesome books in the world. It has 66 authors and not one contridiction in the whole book. Humans could not possibly have done that. My heart just aches for anyone who doesn't believe in God. We christians know he is real and do have facts we see him with our own eyes and hear him and feel him... non believers don't see these things simply because they are non believers. God is so awesome and so real... and when you said we are close minded is so untrue. We listen to the teachings of evolution in school and since there is evidence now that macroevolution could not have possibly happened.. I just wish more people would be open minded to God and try him out. He is so full of love and fills your life with so much joy.
I don't want to offend anyone.. I just have a tender heart for people's future.:)
If anyone ever has any questions .. I would be happy to talk about it.:)

[Cincy'sMom]

I usally try to stay out of controversial subjects. Although I find them interesting, too often people do not respect other's points of views and it turns ugly. It is hard though, because I do find it interesting and the this is a great forum for the disccusions with some many people, from some many backgrounds able to share views. In order for that to happen though, it can not turn into a "who is right" & "who is wrong" situation. Regardless of whether someone is Christian, atheist, Muslim, Jewish, etc. They are not only entitled to their opinion, but should be respected for it and listened to. Everyone should be able to say what they like and everyone else should be open to what they say. They do not have to agree, but they should be aware there are views other then their own out there. Sometimes being open will make you question what you thought...and that is not bad. It is part of growing. Wether it brings you faith, or changes your faith, reaffirms what you belive or do not believe, it doesn't matter. Having the knowledge, thinking things through and making the decision for yourself does. Learning to accept everyone for what he or she belives is what is important.

[WendyW]

Amen to respecting other's beliefs. An excellent way to spoil a board is to dis another's faith and to say everything about the country of most of our members sucks, while quoting "President Franklin". It's called common courtesy, but a few angry and unhappy people here just don't care. Please don't spoil it for the rest of us - OK?

[Ann]

Wow, it's still open. That's nice. Let me respond to you all in order here...

Soledad:

I'm glad that atleast someone can see it the way I do. I actually haven't heard about Dawkins, but I'd be very interested in learning. So if you have the time, please do tell me about it or give me the URL to some sites about it. Thanks :)

Rottieluver45:

I'm not offended, not at all. I enjoy having "deeper" discussions, so it's no worries.

Sara luvs her Tinky:

"The Bible is one of the most awesome books in the world. It has 66 authors and not one contridiction in the whole book." - Really? First off it does NOT have 66 different authors. It has 66 books, but not authors. For example it is belived that Moses wrote 4 books and so on. And for you to say there are no contradictions in that NOVEL just cracks me up laughing. The bible is nothing BUT contradictions. Take a look at this website (http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html). You might find it interesting. Let me just take one of the MANY examples at that site:

Are we punished for our parents' sins?

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."

vs.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

And the list goes on and on and on... Just take a look at that site, and if you'd like to see even more, lemme know and I can show you some more sites like the above one.

"non believers don't see these things simply because they are non believers. God is so awesome and so real... and when you said we are close minded is so untrue." - Thank you for proving my point. You are close minded because it has never crossed your mind that YOU are seeing those "things" because you ARE a beliver.

popcornbird:

I honestly didn't have the strength to go through the site you posted. I read parts and it just turned out to be the typical stuff I have heard thousands of times from people who wanted me to "see the light".

"God is NOT like us. It is very bad to say something like that." - Why is it very bad to say something like that? Hmmm? I thought he was supposed to be a LOVING god, not a vengeful one. LOL

"I don't know what you mean by 'then the picture of the Devil in the smoke can't be real.'" - I meant that if it was like you said that God writes down everything that happens, then he wrote down for 9/11 to happen and thus the devil would have nothing to do with it. Get what I mean now?

"Animals do not have free choice in belief, and all animals believe in God (including your pets)." - You have no clue whatsoever how much that quote disgusted me. No clue. I will not comments on that because I know I'd probably would get banned if I were to speak my mind.

"I am not impossing my beliefs on you, and neither was anyone else." - When you say things like "I just want to say one thing, may God guide all those who don't believe in Him before its too late." then you ARE cramming your beliefs down my throat. How can you not see that?!

----

Anyways, I don't have time to write more right now but I ask all you belivers out there to take this quiz (http://www.ffrf.org/bquiz.html). It's a quiz about the bible, and you might see some very interesting things about your "awsome book" there. Please do take it, it'll be amusing to hear your thougs on it.

There's also this (http://www.churchofreality.org/opinion/evolve.htm) site, which discussed some interesting things.

----

"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion." - Robert M. Pirsig

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, Your Christians are so unlike your Christ" - Mahatma Gandhi

[kohala]

I think the reason many don't believe, is that it seems contradictory to put a finite "face" on an infinite (state of) being. I doubt that "non-believers" are as doomed as some might think just because they don't believe in a word.
As for faith, there isn't anyone posting on these boards that hasn't demonstrated their faith by their devotion to "beings" other than human.
Bucky Fuller said it well; "I seem to be a verb."
Deeds, not words, determine our worth.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Ann... I went to the quiz sight and from the beginning realized it was not a true quiz to determine what we know about the Bible but how much someone wants to demean the belief of those who follow the Bible as the inerrant word of God. I do mean inerrant too!!! The quiz was a slander and joke obviously written by someone who does not believe in God!

The other site you listed also is a joke because it doesn't believe in the possibility of creationism but is strictly a evolutionists point of view. I can refer you to many sites on the net that are pro-creation vs. evolution but that is just showing how I believe and not what is absolute truth. I do not believe in the big band theory and think evolution is an escape for people who can not believe in something they can not see to idealize HOW man came into being what he is today. This is not an open minded discussion because through these last two links you posted for us to look at, it is apparent you also are not open minded. You do not believe in a supreme omniscience creator so how can we expect that you would be open minded to the idea that there is, just as believers are positive their is a creator and that we have not evolved from apes!

As for the Bible being full of contridictions..... anyone can take something and get it out of context and make it sound like it is a contridiction. It's the age old game of having someone at the beginning of the line say something and by the end of the line it is not what was originally said. The references you stated were exactly that... verses taken out of context. Let me show you what I mean!
What you quoted....
Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)

the correct quotation...

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not bow down to them or whorship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me... Exodus 20:6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.


your quotation....
Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."

The correct quotation...

Exodus 34:6-7 (6)"And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, (7)maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.

Meaning behind these verses....
The Israelites had just come from Egypt, a land of many idols and many gods. Because each god represented a different aspect of life, it was common to worship many gods in order to get the maximum number of blessings. When God told his people to worship and believe in him, that wasn't so hard for them... he was just one more god to add to the list. But when he said, "You shall have no other gods before me, " that was difficult for the people to accept. But if they didn't learn that the God who led them out of Egypt was the only true God, they could not be his people - no matter how faithfully they kept the other nine commandments. So God made this his first commandment and emphasized it more than the others.

Considering that in Exodus 34 we are talking about when Moses was commanded by the Lord to bring two stone tablets to Mount Sinai and the Lord was going to reveal himself to Moses there is information there that needs to be understood also. God knew the people were struggling.

So you want to know why the sins of the parents would effect even the grandchildren and great grandchildren? This was no arbitrary punishment. God is Holy.... so Holy that he told Moses that if he saw his face, he would die. Because no one could look into the Holy face of God and live. God knew there were going to be those who would not give up their idols and other gods. These dire consequences of sin were not limited to the individual family member but would influence the generations to come.

Let's consider.... How do children suffer the consequence of sin in their parents lives today? Many children are abused physically, sexually, emotionally in todays society. There are other sins that are not so noticeable such as selfishness and greed. These are all things that can be passed on to the next generation. How many adults are suffering now because they were beat when they were kids, they go to counseling because they were living in dysfunctional homes, they do drugs or have elicit sexually encounters looking for happiness or a way to escape pain. We all see it. These are all results of the sins of the parents. God is gracious though that he does forgive and is quick to forgive to the repentant people. I for one can see the result of faithful parents in my life. I thankfully do not have to deal with a lot of the garbage that some of my friends deal with.


vs.

Your quote...
Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

The correct quote...

Ezekiel 18:14 and 17-20 (14)"But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:... (17) He withholds his hand from sin and takes no usury or excessive interest he keeps my laws and follows my decrees. He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. (18) But his father will die for his own sin, becasue he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people. (19) Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of the father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. (20) The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be chared against him."

God is giving the ability of the sins of the generations to stop. In Exodus he is showing that the sins of the father can carry onto generations to come as far as three and four generations. I know in my life the things that my Great Grandfather did that effected even my generation. I also know that the cycle stopped when my parents broke the cycle and repented. God is just and is willing and able to forgive us our sins if we acknowledge him and turn from our evil ways.

There are no contridictions in the Bible if it is taken in context. If it is taken out of context then you can come up with 100's or maybe even thousands of contridictions.

I must say that in the last few weeks I have noticed that most of your posts have hostility associated with them in some way or another and you claim that it is in the name of a healthy debate. I think there are debate sites out on the net somewhere but also don't think that Pet Talk is where you should be venting your negative comments. I was always told that if you don't have something nice to say then don't say anything at all.

I will pray that the Lord will touch your life in some way and that there will be a possibility of him revealing himself to you. He does reveal himself to me everyday... even if it is in the soft gentle blowing of the wind. Because I know for certaintly in my heart the "Just like air, God is there!!!" That may be the problem here. You are trying to comprehend the vastness of God in your mind and not in your heart. :(

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Well I'm just an old Lady and not all that smart, I love my Country and I believe in God. You can bet your bottom dollar that all of you who don't believe in any God, will, on your death bed, be praying to some God and asking for forgiveness and hoping to go to Heaven.
Jackie

[WendyW]

To the few that hate God and everything about America, why do you bother to hang out around us idiots?! That does not sound like someone so sure of themselves. Oh I get it, lets say God and America is crap and live life bitter, telling everyone how screwed up they are. Wanna be like that? Some enlightment - life sucks then u die!

p.s. This is SOOOOO persuasive to getting me to change what I believe by having a handful of rudes say I'm full of cat litter for my beliefs. What ever happened to agree to disagree? Why not tolerate a different view?

[Rottieluver45]

I just wanna say,before Wendy destroys this topic,That I do believe in God,nothing`s gonna change that,and I respect every one`s beliefs! No matter what!

[WendyW]

I just don't like ppl trashing my God and country, that all. Can't animal lovers be people lovers, huh?

[Rottieluver45]

Well,I don`t think they are really trying to trash God and our Country! They are just saying what they believe! Just their opinions.

[Former User]

Why don't we all keep our religious views to ourselves? That way we don't have to fight here about that! Religion is one of those hot topics and will always cause a stir or whatever when brought up.

[WendyW]

i'm saying at least one of em can't disagree without being very rude. let's be nice about it.

[Rottieluver45]

Casper & Kitty We all need to get some stuff about religion off our chests and we have a right to. And We can`t just keep it bottled up inside us!

[Former User]

Originally posted by Rottieluver45
Casper & Kitty We all need to get some stuff about religion off our chests and we have a right to. And We can`t just keep it bottled up inside us!

oh well excuse me for daring to suggest something!

[Rottieluver45]

Originally posted by Casper & Kitty


oh well excuse me for daring to suggest something!

I`m sorry I didn`t mean it in a rude way.I`m just saying that we really need to get some of this stuff out!

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Yes ... Dixie your words explinations were great....

And Ann....
You were right... the Bible has 66 books and 44 authors.. my mistake.
You can't believe every thing you read off the internet. I don't know what search engine you used to find some web site with some so called contridictions of the Bible in it. Any one could read the Bible and nick pick things out of it here and there that sounds good to their ears and make it sound like they know what they are talking about on some web page.... so lets look at this again.. I was intrigued to study this out myself...

Exodus 20:5
5.For I the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6.but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me andkeep My commandments

ok now if you research this some the hebrew verb translated visiting can mean coming in an act of mercy or coming in divine judgement. So this is saying a fathers sins effect the third and fourth generation but God has mercy for them and they have and opportunity to turn from their fathers sins....

Exodus 34: 6-7
6. And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, The Lord the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7.keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sins, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and fourth generation.

once again the hebrew verb translated visiting can mean coming in an act of mercy or coming in divine judgement.

Exekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father not the father bear the guilt of the son.

I think that is self explanatory.

Deutoronimy 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sinn.

Once again that sounds self explanatory.

So where is the contradiction. All four verses agree with themselves.

Mainly I want to say I am not here to argue the word. I would love to say give me another so called contradicion and I will research it out for you but my job as a christian is to bring the word to a lost world not argue with them. And please dont believe just anything you find on the internet and get a bible and study it out for youself.


Thank you for proving my point. You are close minded because it has never crossed your mind that YOU are seeing those "things" because you ARE a beliver.

O.k. now their is no reason to attack me. You stated your opinion and I stated what I know.
For example if you see a dog run up to you and feel it lick your hand you know that dog is really there..... I see God and his works with my own eyes and feel his presence and his joy. Not because I am a close minded believer but because he is REAL... when you see things and feel things that generally is the FACTS THAT THEY ARE REALLY THERE.

[kohala]

What's it like where you all are?
You know, speaking of 9/11, wasn't there an atmosphere of unity throughout the world for a while? Now look at us here, doing a micro version of the macroscopic problems in the world these days. Except we are only using words, not arms. And what are we discussing? Religion.
Not our spiritual beliefs, which we all have no matter how we define them, but our "religion".
See why there are so many wars?

The issue of separation of Church and State is not meant to negate Church, but to prevent ONE Church from controlling all society. If that seems offensive, consider this: There would be no guarantee as to which Church it would be should it be allowed to happen. Think about that for a moment. Then look at Afghanistan - now there was a Church at work running a state for an example.

Once again, dear hearts, we are getting hung up in semantics. If your faith is strong, it will radiate in your deeds. All too often it gets muddied up in words. And all to often we condemn truly spiritual, loving people because they don't share our particular definitions.

So how's your day? What have your furkids been doing to entertain you this morning? Or evening;) ?

[Ann]

Dixieland Dancer:

"I went to the quiz sight and from the beginning realized it was not a true quiz to determine what we know about the Bible but how much someone wants to demean the belief of those who follow the Bible as the inerrant word of God. I do mean inerrant too!!! The quiz was a slander and joke obviously written by someone who does not believe in God!" - It was written to point out things about the bible that most christians do not know, or will refuse to accept (like yourself). How is it slander when everything in that quiz is TRUE? And it is most certainly not a joke either, it's written by a respected organization which does it best to make people see the truth about some of the major religions. And of course it was written by someone who doesn't belive in God, if it had been it would just have been some bias statement ignoring the truth and the full story. The only reason you think the quiz is slanderous is because you refuse to be open-minded in this situation, you refuse to see all the contradictions in the bible and keep going on with how your god is inerrant and so on.

"This is not an open minded discussion because through these last two links you posted for us to look at, it is apparent you also are not open minded." - Just because I do not belive in your god does not mean I am not open-minded. The only ones who are refusing to see the other side in this discussion is yourself, not me. When have I said in this discussion that there is no supreme god? I am just saying that I don't belive in it and give the reasons why I don't.

"I will pray that the Lord will touch your life in some way and that there will be a possibility of him revealing himself to you." - Please stop cramming your beliefs down my throat. Please. I don't want anyone to pray for me, I've had enough of that already. Imagine how you would feel if I were to say "I pray that the dark lord Satan will reveal himself to you and show you how stupid God is". I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate it, so try to think about that before you tell me you are praying for me.

jackiesdaisy1935:

Why would I? I try to belive in a life after this one, but YOU can bet that I would not pray to some vengeful christian God that would throw me to some burning hell just because I didn't aknowledge him. Take a look at that loving god of yours for once.

WendyW:

What's up with you? You haven't even posted much here and you're telling me I shouldn't be here?

"To the few that hate God and everything about America, why do you bother to hang out around us idiots?! That does not sound like someone so sure of themselves. Oh I get it, lets say God and America is crap and live life bitter, telling everyone how screwed up they are." - I hang here because it was supposed to be a forum about pets, but I am just getting fed up with seeing the same stuff over and over and over. And when did I EVER say I was selfconfident? I am most certainly not. I don't lead a bitter life for no reason, I just hope to be able to open a few people's eyes and make some people a bit more open-minded. I see that that will never happen with you.

Rottieluver45:

Thank you for being open-minded and so nice about this all. If the God you belive in really does exist, he will have a spot for you in heaven. And yes, I am serious.

----

I don't have the time to respond to the other stuff posted, but I would be interested in seeing people respond to some of the other things I pointed out instead of just copying bible quotes over and over.

Maybe Niina is right... This is probably just a waste of time and will do nothing but make everyone think I'm an ******. Oh well... A few good men will do nothing when evil triumphs, right? LOL

[Former User]

Ann, you are not an bad person! I agree totally with what you have said. I'm also fed up with people who believe in god to try and make me 'see the light' too. Each and every religious person I've met, has tried to turn me to believe. I can't believe them, they are rude! Why can't they let me be alone with what I believe? Why don't we non-believers have the right not to believe without everyone jumping onto us and telling how wrong and lost we are because we don't believe. I for once would be much happier without all the religious crap we have in this world, and world would be a better place without these religious fights.

If you believe in god, fine, good for you, it's YOUR desicion, but PLEASE, leave us non believers alone! It's OUR desicion, and your moaning about it won't make us change our minds, quite the opposite.

[Randi]

Good God! What one picture can start! :rolleyes: I have only skimmed this thread and I can't say I'm religious - but I do have two friends who are christians, and I have not once experienced they've tried to convince me otherwise. I say, let people have their religions as long as no harm is done to anybody because of it!

I wonder if there's a religious forum somewhere on the net, that may be the right place to discuss this subject! ;)

Have a nice day, all! :) Peace!!

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Well, I for one will not post in PetTalk anymore if I have to listen to these people with their nasty dispositions, all they are looking for are arguments, not discussions, I will post in Dog of the Day, Pet of the Day and Cat of the Day. I can't say I care to associate with people like this, I don't think religion has anything to do with it, I don't care for their language either, I thought we were above this kind of thing, I guess not.
Jackie

[SugarGirl]

Everytime an agnostic/atheist states their beliefs, they are expected to sublimate their beliefs over another religion's because it's not valid enough. So, if we take a stand against pledging to God it's a huge deal. We always come out looking bad.

I get sick and tired of that "there are no atheists in foxholes" rhetoric. You wanna know what? I have had three close family members die, and not once did they revoke their lifelong held beliefs and start crying out for Jesus. They lived their lives in utter dignity and grace, and if there is an afterlife (which no one can prove or disprove) they will in good standing. It's like Casper & Kitty says: stop getting so stuck on Bible quotes and defending what you believe. The life you lead is example enough. I'm sick of this patronizing "one day you'll believe or you'll roast". I don't see any of the "non-believers" casting consequences on the "believers".

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

I don't see any of the "non-believers" casting consequences on the "believers".
True... because they have no consequences to cast.



So, if we take a stand against pledging to God it's a huge deal. We always come out looking bad.
Not true. If a christian is witnessing through the goodness of their heart and love of God with their testimony they will never try to make anyone look bad they will just spread the word like they are suposed to and LOVE THEIR ENEMIES! (and I am by no means trying to emply anyone is anyones enemy) BUT when a person comes out attacking another with snide remarks and ugly words THEN they make themselves look bad.

When christian tells someone about God it is solely because we care about people and know the love and joy God has to offer. NOT to cram anything down anyone's throat. A person has a free will to decide what they want to believe. But as a christian I have to defend the Bible and put the truth out. No one HAS TO ACCEPT what I say. They have a right to state their opinion as I do. We are all human and as humans we can get offended and take insult at what people say.... but we should not be attacking people with hatred and mean words.

[Aspen and Misty]

(This is not ment to offend anyone)

I personally, dont know what I beleave in. IN a way I don't beleave in god, but I also do. I have seen him work in many situations, but at the same time I wonder to myself if it is just chance? I guess I am just another mixed up teen. My parents and there friends beleave strongly in god I mean they beleave in god to no extent and bring us kids up to beleave in him to. I have nothing at all about people who beleave in god. INfact I now go to a christian school and am sureounded by people who beleave in him and they are the best peopel you could ever meet. O they are just great kids and the teachers are so nice. But I ahve some trouble beleavening in everything that I hear about god, weitehr it be in church or in School. I will not question your faith as you can beleave in what you want to and I can beleave in what I want to. '

So I guess I am classifed as a none beleaver. But I would like to say WENDY that just because I am a none beleaver does NOT in anyway make me a bad person. Yes I make mistakes and I am not perfect, infact far from it. No I do not ask for forgiveness from god nor do I pray everday, but does that really make me that bad of a person? You hate me because I do not beleave in what you beleave in, thats not very far, is it? Also I think what you said about non beleavers and there country. I am an American, I am proud one at that, and I love my country. I woudl be more then happy to scream that out loud or wear a shirt that says it. I don't care what other people think, I love my country and thats that.

I also have great respect for those of you who beleave in god. You are able to walk through life feelign like someone is always there and that must be a great feeling.

Ash

PS: I once saw a man stand in a HUGE crowd and yell Jeuse Christ frogive these people's sin for we all have done wrong. It was a Beautiful experince to see a man so strongly beleave in somethig that he would stand infront of a crowd of people and pray for us and not care what we thought about him. I always will rember him and the homeless man who read the bible in the park to kids. They were two great men who have touched my life.

[SugarGirl]

What about the consequence of a life wasted on lies. That seems quite formidable to me.

What if it was my sacred mission to spread the word that God didn't exist? What if I took every chance to make sure that everyone knew believing in God was like believing in the Tooth Fairy? Would that offend you? But, hey, I'm just doing it because I love you and don't want you to waste your life.


Get the message?

[SugarGirl]

My words were not full of hate, and I'm sorry you read them that way. They were full of urgency, though. I was attempting to show you how your words affect people like Ann and me, by reversing the situation. Maybe now you know how it feels to be at the end of your words, or maybe you'll just continue to ignore how you make others feel. It's up to you and your free will. Like my mom said, don't dish it out if you can't dish it in.

[Andie]

Ok let me start out by saying I have faith and yet no religion. I believe there is a God and there is Satan but I don't believe in church! ( I have had many arguments with my best friend (who is close-minded when it comes to religion) because of the way I think where we have to stay away from each other for a while and yet I can have same arguments with my fiancée where we finally came to a conclusion just cuz we were willing to hear each other out.

Ok, that being said I would like to comment on some of what you guys have said. (Remember these are just my opinions and I don't mean to hurt anyone with my words)

Ann:
I have to agree with some of what you say (didn't go to any of your sites though sorry) and I can't agree more with your animals & God comment.

Dixie:
No one knows with complete authority on how anything and anyone arrived on this planet. I've taken a class (Origin of Life) and I am still confused as ever about the subject.

Wendy:
I don't think you want my comments on how you’re acting.

Rottieluver:
You have a great attitude! Don't ever lose it.

Kohala:
Bravo!

Sugar Girl: Point taken



About America issue:

I am a Proud American (along with my heritage which is why I have both an American and a Rebel flag in my room) but I can also admit when my country is in the wrong. No one can take away my patriotism just because my Grandfather, 2 Great-uncles and future brother-in-law serve(d) this country well. That's all I have to say about that.

Once again I want to say that the above was just my opinions so please don't hate me and I apologize in advance if I offend any one! Thank you for listening to my ramble!
Hugs for everyone and kissies for all the furbabies!



Andie

[kohala]

... of the terrorist acts of Sept 11 2001, let's keep in mind what the professed motive was: Religious beliefs.

The best Christmas card I ever got was from a friend who showed Jesus at a Birthday party table, with cake and balloons, and seated around the table were Mohammed, Buddha, Lao Tsu, Shiva, Baha'uallah and other representatives of different faiths. They were depicted as all singing Happy Birthday to Him, in a very beautiful, serious artistic rendition. She happened to be Baha'i.

What greater act of evil (or act of Satan, if you wish) than to acheive the ultimate goal of destruction of those beings called human by inspiring their vanity through "religion". Boy, do we ever have a tendency to forget "God is Love".

I love my cat; she knows God personally, and she doesn't talk about it. But then, feline beings are far more aware than we are, canine beings, too!

Thanks, Andie - and being a typical human, I had to say more ;)

[zippy-kat]

Andie, I can (semi-)relate to your disagreements with "Church" itself; I do attend although I admit it is not regularly. I think numerous churches are there for the "pagentry."

I am Christian and it works for me. I realize and respect, that there are many other religions (or lack thereof) that work for other people. I'll readily & openly talk about different religions (or lack thereof) with others, though it is a sticky subject; tempers can flare! Regardless of how I feel, I recognize that not everyone is Christian & not everyone wants to be. If asked, I'll account for my personal experiences of how God has revealed himself to me. Maybe even ask if they'd like to know more, etc. I think a "gentle nudge" is more effective than an all out "attack."

I do have friends of different religions (a steadfast Wiccan, being one of them). I do find all religions/pracitices interesting (particularly Shamanism) and like to know the histories, the foundational beliefs, etc. I have taken a "Bible" course (dealing with new and old testament) in college; the professor was agnostic or athiest (I could never tell--he seemed to vary between the two). Though I disagree with much of what he taught us, it was great class and I learned much from it.

I don't want to be part of this debate as it really doesn't seem to be accomplishing anything except angering members of both "sides." However, I do applaud both "sides" in sticking up for themselves (regardless of whether or not the points are valid to you); defending yourself is sometimes really hard to do.

All this having been said, let's remember what brought us all together in the first place....our pets and the love we have for them....

[zippy-kat]

Originally posted by kohala
[BThe best Christmas card I ever got was from a friend who showed Jesus at a Birthday party table, with cake and balloons, and seated around the table were Mohammed, Buddha, Lao Tsu, Shiva, Baha'uallah and other representatives of different faiths. They were depicted as all singing Happy Birthday to Him, in a very beautiful, serious artistic rendition.[/B]

Sounds like a REALLY neat card! Do you still have it? I'd like to see the pic!

[Nomilynn]

I just got back from vacation so I just found this topic. I want to say first that I try to be open minded about everything, I respect everyone's decisions whether I agree with them or not, and a lot of what has been said in this topic is very interesting. I am a Christian, and to be honest, a lot of times I find Christians who witness to people who don't want to be witnessed to offensive. If someone comes up to a person and starts witnessing, and that person says, "No thanks, I don't believe and I don't want to hear that message" or whatever, I believe the other person should back off. It's a Christans job to spread the message. Once it's been said, it's not a Christians job to keep hounding a person. All anyone can do is say it, and then it's the other person's choice to believe it or not. I think it's rude when ANYONE of ANY religion tries to shove a beilef down one's throat. I include atheists. I have my beliefs and they are just that.. my beliefs. I agree with Ann and Niina when they say they should be respected when they ask that no one either pray for them or make them believe something they don't want to. That is their choice, just like being a part of any religion is a choice. I hope that we can keep this thread alive and have calm, respectful discussion because I think it's important that everyone has a chance to say what they believe. I hope I haven't offended anyone at all.. and if I have I'm sorry.

Have a great day to all! :D

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

a lot of times I find Christians who witness to people who don't want to be witnessed to offensive.
Nomilynn...
I like what you said...
I have pm'ed a few people to apologize if I have offended them in any way... I just have strong beliefs and like a good debate... although... this topic is really not a good one to debate seeing how it is easy to forget that I am in a forum full of people from all over the world.. so I just wanted to make my apology public... I by no means ment to offend anyone or make them feel attacked.:)

[Former User]

Originally posted by jackiesdaisy1935
Well, I for one will not post in PetTalk anymore if I have to listen to these people with their nasty dispositions, all they are looking for are arguments, not discussions, I will post in Dog of the Day, Pet of the Day and Cat of the Day. I can't say I care to associate with people like this, I don't think religion has anything to do with it, I don't care for their language either, I thought we were above this kind of thing, I guess not.
Jackie

I only stated my opinion as many others have. If that will put you off from posting in Pet Talk, too bad then. Just as other people have their right to express their opinion that they believe in god, us non-believers have the same right too. Not everyone in this world believes in god and it has to be accepted. I personally don't have problems with those who do believe, just as long as they leave others alone who don't.

[Ann]

Well, I'm really glad to see this thread still open and it's really nice to see some people here who actually agree with some of the things I've said and respects everyone's views.

jackiesdaisy1935:

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I fail to see how anyone has used nasty words or whatever. And I think this is developing to be a nice discussion, I'm sorry you can't take hearing both sides.

zippy-kat:
I'd be interested in hearing your personal experiences.


Originally posted by SugarGirl
What if it was my sacred mission to spread the word that God didn't exist? What if I took every chance to make sure that everyone knew believing in God was like believing in the Tooth Fairy? Would that offend you? But, hey, I'm just doing it because I love you and don't want you to waste your life.

Well said!

popcornbird:

Please read the above quote and STOP praying for me. I'm serious. And just because I didn't bother reading through the whole site that you posted a link to does not mean I am close-minded. I simply just didn't have the time to read it, and besides I have read the same arguments hundreds of times before and I find them to be very weak. Also, why are you ignoring my comment about your "your animals love God" statement?


Originally posted by popcornbird
God created you, and me, and everything in the heavens and the earth. To say such a thing about God, Who created you, gave you health, filled your life with bounties, gave you your family, pets, and all, is worse that insulting your parents, who have raised you with love and spent all these many years caring for you; this is just an example. God is the most compassionate and most merciful, but God rewards people for their good deeds, and punishes them for their wrong-doings.

Since I don't belive in God, why would it still be a bad thing to say something like that? And for a second, let's say your God does exist, he is not compassionate or merciful AT ALL. Let's take the whole pharao in Egypt thing for example. He kills the pharaos son because the pharao refuses to let the slaves go free, right? Now, what did the son have to do with that? If your God wanted to punish someone, shouldn't he have punished the pharao himself, who refused to let go of the slaves? But no, instead he murders an innocent child. Way to go there mr loving god. And then he forces one of the guys in the bible (can't remember his name right now) to sacrifice his son and stops him right before he actually kills him with his only reason being "oh, I just wanted to test you". That's really compassionate isn't it? And what about all the animal sacrifices? I'm sure the sheep who's blood were put on doors were all happy with it, because they belive in God after all, right popcornbird?

Aside from all the scientific facts and all the errors and contradictions in the bible I have several more personal reasons why I don't belive in a god. I have to bike off to school now so I cannot start talking more about that, but I want you all to think about one thing:

God must love wars.

Think about it... When two countries are fighting, let's take the USA and Pakistan for example now. The people in USA says "God bless America! We will prevail for he is on the good people's side; ours!". The people in Pakistan goes "Praise Allah! He will help us smithe those terrible greedy Americans!". Every side of a war says things like that and belive "God" is on their side. All wars are based on religion. It's the truth. Think about the crusades... Or the witch burning... Or anything! It's all the same...

Well... I gotta run now so bye for now!

[Ann]

My mistake, I meant to say Afghanistan and not Pakistan. However, you can drop your little sarcastic smileys and stop trying to make me out to be a moron all the time, because it's not working. It was just an example anyways, and goes for EVERY country in the world who has ever been in a war.

[kohala]

Originally posted by zippy-kat


Sounds like a REALLY neat card! Do you still have it? I'd like to see the pic!
No, I wish I did!

[Soledad]

that while I'm probably just opening another can of worms, here...9/11 didn't happen just for religious reasons. The religious often gets mixed with the political and vice versa. This was in response to Kohala's entry.

As for Wendy and JackieDaisy, I believe that I stated my opinions in a very open minded and tolerant way. It seems that the simple fact that I am not a "believer" makes me rude. And I think that speaks more of you and your views than mine.

I've also noticed how God and country have been mixed together. I don't think God has anything to do with patriotism. I am an American and an agnostic, and not believing in God does not make me unpatriotic. I might also add that it has nothing to do with blindly accepting everything the government does and says. To me, the highest call of patriotism lies in participation and criticism. Without it, we will never progress.

Ann, it is very hard to be an agnostic/atheist in this world. Especially in America. People will constantly challenge your beliefs and try to change you. When I was younger I would get very angry about this, but I've mellowed and just accepted it. But don't lose that fire, entirely, but you will get more comfortable in your beliefs as you get older. :)

[Pam]

I wasn't going to get involved in this but now feel I must. There have been about three disruptive threads since I have been at Pet Talk (2 yrs.) They didn't start out that way but some members got rude, the last being a 19 year old boy who was asked to leave. In my humble opinion, this thread is heading very much in that direction and should be closed. It is not pet-related. If members want to PM each other that's fine, but let's stop the public bickering.

[Randi]

Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer
I do not believe in the big band theory and think evolution is ...
I have to agree with you there, but still think Count Basie and Duke Ellington are great. (SORRY - NO OFFENCE MEANT!) ;)

Personally, I feel that religious beliefs are usually a way of trying to get to grips with our own insecurity. My own solution to this incomprehensible world is to hide myself behind a thick veil of humour, preferably black. :D
Now I'm not sure whether I dare post the Fister Christmas Card this year, I wouldn't want to offend anyone. But lets wait and see.
Tolerance, compassion and understanding, that's what we need a lot more of!!

With respect

John

[Former User]

Originally posted by Randi

My own solution to this incomprehensible world is to hide myself behind a thick veil of humor, preferably black. :D
Now I'm not sure whether I dare post the Fister Christmas Card this year, I wouldn't want to offend anyone. But lets wait and see.
John

Ditto John with that black humour! And do post that x-mas card, I'm sure it's fabulous! :D

[Andie]

Originally posted by Pam
In my humble opinion, this thread is heading very much in that direction and should be closed. It is not pet-related. If members want to PM each other that's fine, but let's stop the public bickering.


Well I actually think this theard is quite good. I don't think that anyone on here is trying to personally attack one another. I just feel that the way we feel sometimes makes it seem like someone is attacking us. I think this is a theraputic thread for some. But hey what do I know?

[Dixieland Dancer]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer
I do not believe in the big band theory and think evolution is ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have to agree with you there, but still think Count Basie and Duke Ellington are great. (SORRY - NO OFFENCE MEANT!)

Thanks for the laugh! I did not realize I had written band instead of Bang! I enjoyed your humor and I personally am a fan of Bennie Goodman!! :D

[Randi]

Glad to hear that you like Benny Goodman Dixie, he is actually my favourite too. I especially love all the sextet stuff with Charlie Christian. (Since this is about physics, I was probably subconsciously thinking of "The Atomic Mr Basie!)
We also have Ben Webster (not to mention Søren Kierkegaard and Hans Christian Andersen) buried just a couple of hundred yards from us in our local cemetry.

John

[sasvermont]

My best friend is an anthiest and I am a Christian. We agree that we do not agree on religion. We seldom discuss our views about this, since we are both dead set in our ways....and we never try to convert each other. I accept her choice and decisions and she accepts mine. I believe it is called tolerance, yes?

I think this topic is a good one, just too bad that so many are letting it get out of hand and saying rather rude things to each other.

Have fun kids! :)

[jackiesdaisy1935]

QUOTE FROM ANN Maybe Niina is right... This is probably just a waste of time and will do nothing but make everyone think I'm ********. Oh well... A few good men will do nothing when evil triumphs, right? LOL

Ann if the shoe fits............I was not going to post however I resent the posts you write, it is always negative about our country. I could care less whether you believe in God or not, not my problem. It is in vogue right now to bash America, no matter that we send aid and money to many, many needy countries.
Has anyone on here used Sweden as an example? please refrain in your religious discussions from bashing the USA, I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, I don't know of anyone on this site who uses anyone else's country as a bad example and I resent the fact that you use ours.
As far as religion I don't care what anyone believes and I don't shove religion down anyone's throat, I don't even usually talk about it. It is a personal thing whether you believe or not, that is a right we have here in the United States, freedom of religion.
Ann you were on here before and I believe either left or were banned because of your behaviour. I thought you had changed and I was wrong.
Soledad, I don't even know you, I don't recall calling you rude, if you felt that I did I am sorry, I respect everyone having an opinion, whether it agrees with mine or not, but sometimes it's in the way that it is presented, in the matter of religion I don't care what people believe, that's their business, I do resent the bashing of our country by a few and I don't recall any Americans on here bashing other countries. I would appreciate the topic sticking to religion if that's what people want to discuss and leave the United States out of it.
Jackie

[Ann]

Originally posted by Pam
I wasn't going to get involved in this but now feel I must. There have been about three disruptive threads since I have been at Pet Talk (2 yrs.) They didn't start out that way but some members got rude, the last being a 19 year old boy who was asked to leave. In my humble opinion, this thread is heading very much in that direction and should be closed. It is not pet-related. If members want to PM each other that's fine, but let's stop the public bickering.

I don't get why this thread should be closed just because you find it to be "disruptive". If the topic of this thread bothers you, then simply don't read it anyome. I don't see why everyone who enjoys a deeper discussion should have that taken away just cause a few can't take to hear it. One of your reasons why this should be closed is cause it's not pet-related, but the sad truth is that if I had not spoken up with my original comment and this would just have kept on being a "God bless the USA" thread then you would NOT have complained or asked for the thread to be closed.That is UNFAIR and is the ONLY reason I started this argument in the first place. Why can't you see that? And yeah, Andie is partly right. It does help me get some steam out about this all.

Soledad, it seems that Bush thinks that patriotism and being a Christian is the same thing though. I can't find the exact quote right now, but it goes something like this "Real patriots worship the almighty God. If they don't belive in God they should not live in this country. I hope the military will really re-think their decision". He said that when the military said they would allow Wiccan rituals. Like I said, that ISN'T the exact quote, so don't nitpick me. And I know you're right about my temper, I know I should try to be calmer about it... Sorry! Kudos to you and the other non-belivers here who manage their calm, I'm really sorry if I'm ruining it for you all :(

As for the private reasons I mentioned before... Aside from bible contradictions and scientific facts that go against the bible and the whole thing with the pharao and so on there's personal reasons too... If your loving and compassionate God existed he would not have allowed the following:

My grandpa on my mom's side dying right before I was born, he never got to see me and I never got to meet him.

My grandma on my mom's side dying right before she got to see one of her wishes come true; me starting school.

My beloved cat Titti dying when I was out of the country, I did not even get to say goodbye to her or get to pet her when she fell asleep for the last time.

My greatgrandma passing away that same time when I was gone, I didn't even get to go to her funeral.

My great grandpa also passing away shortly after my great grandma, when I wasn't there.

My grandpa slowly withering away from leukemia.

Me getting a bloodclot in my eye and loosing vision without a chance in hell of regaining it.

Me getting diabetes type 2.

My boyfriend (who was an EXTREMELY devout Christian, he even went to a private Christian school for years) getting cancer in his spinal cord. He spent forever in the hospital going through surgery after surgery, and he has several problems to this very day thanks to it, many mental thanks to scars and so on. Everyone from his church told him God was just "testing" him, but you know what? A loving God would never do such a thing.

Last time I was at the cemetary there was a new grave for a little child, with a little teddybear holding an envelope in it's hands, a letter written by another small child, probably a sibling, a goodbye letter marked by tears.

I could go on and on FOREVER but this is just making me too upset, so sorry.

[Ann]

Oh, I just saw jackiesdaisy1935's post. Heh... And you call ME rude? Atleast I never called you an ********.

Anyways, dig your signature. LOL

I was never banned from Pet Talk. I willingly left a long time ago right after I just signed up for the very same reason as I am posting this: I was getting fed up with all the "God bless the USA" stuff. But of course, bring up the past if you so wish. I thought you Christians were supposed to be oh-so forgiving?

And as for your comment about the USA having freedom of religion (which basically every other country in the world has, and not just your "special" country) did you somehow forget that you are SUPPOSED to have a thing called freedom of speech (which also basically every other country has)? That "freedom" of yours should allow me to say whatever I please about your country. That was a bit hypocritical, don't you think?

And I thought you weren't gonna post here anymore? I must have read wrong.

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. - George Bernard Shaw

Can anything be stupider than that a man has the right to kill me because he lives on the other side of a river and his ruler has a quarrel with mine, though I have not quarrelled with him? - Blaise Pascal

BTW, I thought of another reason... I once talked about how much I loved animals to an American pastor. Do you know what he said to me? He said "Animals are just here for food and then have no soul. I mean after all, if God didn't want us to eat them why would he have made them out of meat". Lovely huh?

[Karen]

Ann, I allowed this thread to continue because the discussion had veered toward simple discussion, but your tone has become argumentative and dismissive of others.

To everyone:

This is Pet Talk! This is NOT the place to debate religion or to prove or disprove the existence of God.

Please, everyone, if you want to debate religion, do not do it here. Do it in emails, do it at another discussion board, but every time this subject gets brought up, emotions flare and bad feelings result.

All this started with just a simple "do you think this is a real picture?"

[pupper-lover]

Although, I don't think the angel or devil pictures are real, they were fun to look at. Thanks for posting them :D

[Rottieluver45]

I`m sorry for posting the pictures everyone!This got WAY too out of hand!

[zippy-kat]

Originally posted by Ann
zippy-kat:
I'd be interested in hearing your personal experiences.

I am willing to share Ann. But let's conduct it via email, ok?
You can email me at [email protected]

[jackiesdaisy1935]

THANK YOU KAREN
Jackie

[gini]

This has been bugging me for a few days now, so I may as well have my say.

Why did you come to this site? PET OF THE DAY!

Many of the thousands of members here have gotten to know each other very well. How did we accomplish that? Because, we talked about our PETS! We know what kind of animal(s) you have and we respond to each other's questions about health, food, medications, behavior problems and on and on.

Most of us are here because we love our pets dearly and we have fun sharing our stories, but jump when a question arises and we can help.

Some of you and let me repeat SOME, never talk about their pets, but they if there is a controversial subject you are on it like a fly.

This isn't what this site is all about. Surely there are many sites that will encourage unlimited discussions about religion, politics and any other subject that you might like to partipate in. Why did you pick PET TALK to vent your opinions?

I for one, am sick to death of hearing how we only make nice nice here...........and we can't stand controversy.

Please, go find a site that just loves controversy and devote your time and attention there. We, here at Pet Talk would like to get back to the whole point of this site. PETS!

[Andie]

From the sudden tone that this thread has taken, I have a feeling that it's about to be shut down. Just wanted to say that I enjoyed hearing everyone's viewpoints and if anyone would like to continue this discussion with me my e-mail is : [email protected] (there are underscores in there Senior_eagle_2001). Feel free to e-mail me! I'm sorry that this thread has upset some of you so much that it's in danger of being shut down.


I`m sorry for posting the pictures everyone!This got WAY too out of hand!

Don't be sorry. You didn't know.


Gini:

I did come here for my pets and I do talk about them and throw out my suggestions when asked. With that being said, it was nice to talk about something other than them. I love my babies dearly but after a while I've said all I can about them. I thought this board was about commuication as well as pets. Can we not have one conversation that doesn't revolve around our pets. Sorry if you find this rude or otherwise but I had to state my opinion.

[Karen]

Converse yes, fight, no! Other > General has lots of discussions about other things than pets!

But mainly, Pet Talk is about pets. It is what we all have in common, and why we are here, as part of this community!

[Former User]

There's another cat site that allows to talk about everything between heaven and earth, the address is available when you click here (http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/index.php?s=)


you can also email me at [email protected] if you feel like it. :)

[Andie]

Is it a fight or difference in opinion? Because I personally think it all is a difference in opinion. I'm sure no one on here is trying to hurt each others feelings but when you believe something as strongly as most do religion sometimes you feel like you are being attacked when you really aren't. That's just what I think, I could be wrong. (It's been know to happen. LOL)

[Dixieland Dancer]

[I love my babies dearly but after a while I've said all I can about them. [/B][/QUOTE]

I can go on and on and on and on and on and on..... ok... I guess you get the message. But I never tire of talking about Dixie or Dusty. Just today I had them on the phone with daddy and they were barking and getting so excited to here his voice. It was the greatest thing!! I am so glad their daddy loves them as much as me!!!! :D Now if I could only get him to use the pooper scooper! :rolleyes: LOL

[Andie]

Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer
[I love my babies dearly but after a while I've said all I can about them.

I can go on and on and on and on and on and on..... ok... I guess you get the message. But I never tire of talking about Dixie or Dusty. Just today I had them on the phone with daddy and they were barking and getting so excited to here his voice. It was the greatest thing!! I am so glad their daddy loves them as much as me!!!! :D Now if I could only get him to use the pooper scooper! :rolleyes: LOL [/B][/QUOTE]


Ok, ok so you caught me I can do the same but it was nice to talk about something else. BTW i think it's just a male thing when it comes to not using the pooper scooper. LOL :rolleyes: MEN!

[Pam]

Let me just say that I don't think anyone here has a closed mind. I think what we are trying to say is that some things are better done by PM than by expressing ourselves publicly on this board and possibly upsetting the others. It is hard to express oneself via e-mail or public boards. Body language, etc. is not seen. The written word has no voice inflections, try as we might to add emoticons. I think that when we stray too far from pet-related topics we get into trouble here, and that is not what Karen and Paul had in mind when they created Pet Talk (please correct me if I am wrong.) I would suggest PMing those who you would like to discuss things with or searching for a religious or political site that might provide a stimulating discussion. I am not "mad" at anyone. I just wish these discussions could take place elsewhere. Hope you understand....

[Ann]

Karen, I'm sorry you feel that way. But let me ask you this... You made it out like your main reason that you don't want this thread to go on is because it doesn't fit in with Pet Talk since it's not about pets, but when 9/11 comes around and people post their memorials and so on here saying things like "God bless the USA and all the souls of the people who died", will you say the same thing then? I honestly don't think you would even CONSIDER anything like that, and that's the only reasons why I started all this crap in the first place; because I thought it was unfair that as long as it was the non-pet related, God-loving, patriotic stuff it was ok, but when it's the non-pet related controversial stuff it's NOT ok. Get my point? That's ALL I ever tried to do with this all and I'm sorry you can't see that. And before someone jumps on me and says that I am being insensitive about 9/11, it was just an EXAMPLE. I too think what happened was terrible, the way I always feel when lives are lost.

zippy-kat (and Andie), will do :) I look forward hearing from you!

gini (and Pam), I partly agree with Andie here; I too think it's nice to have an discussion that's not related to pets once in a while. However, I too can go on and on and on about them LOL. And you know, I used to go to another forum that had more "deeper" thoughts. However, that site was the complete opposite of Pet Talk because it welcomed religious and politic threads, but it wasn't too fond of pet related topics. I guess I was just hoping that I one day could find one site that would embrace EVERYTHING I enjoyed talking about. Oh well... Pet Talk is obviously not suited for that and the other site I spoke about... Well, it was closed down by the USA government for it's political views.

Niina, you know I've been at that site before. I'll try to drop by again soon! Thanks for reminding me!

popcornbird, that's too bad, I was hoping to hear your responses to some of the things I sad. Oh well... I have one question to you though! Well two actually come to think of it... I had a best friend a long time ago who was muslim, and she always spelled it "Kuran" instead of "Quran". Is it just a Swedish and English way of spelling it or was she wrong somehow? And secondly you said that it is the pure word of your God, never altered or anything... But what about translations? They must obviously have been altered and KNOW it has been translated into other languages...

[shais_mom]

Ann, I am so sorry you had all those losses. Truly I am. But I cannot understand how you blame God for all of them. God is our Father, and like any loving parent lets us make mistakes and choices, b/c of free will. Of course I am not saying that your relatives chose to pass on, so please don't think that is what I am saying. But free will is what happened on Sept 11, and in Oklahoma City, and all other times that terrorism has hit us and other tragedys.

My grandpa had Parkinson's disease, had a massive stroke, while my grandma was away with my parents b/n Christmas and New Years of 1999. And he died the day before our Family Christmas of 2000. He survived almost 11 mos. We never got to say goodbye either. But I don't blame God, my grandpa was a devout Christian, and he ended up where he wanted to be. It didn't make my family turn away from God, it turned us to him and each other. Our Pastor stated at church, that "This family will be ok, they will pull together and support one another." I always think of that, I think that is an awesome compliment.
My beloved greyhound that is my heart dog, and dog of a lifetime, crossed to the bridge on Sept 13, 2001. 2 days after Sept 11. I was devasted, I felt like I couldn't function or go on without her.. But what got me thru was knowing that God took her home to be with all those people that died on Sept 11. She was there with them so the children could play with her since they didn't have their doggies anymore. Not that I didn't need her, but there were many more that needed her more than I did.
Since I am confessing to you, I will also confess this story too:
My faith got shaken deeply about a year and half ago. A friend at work who had had a miscarriage, was pregnant again. She and her husband did everything right, ultrasounds, prenatal care, etc. Then she went into labor 3 mos early and had the baby, the doctors decided to life flight the baby to a Children's hospital, by the time her parents got there the baby was the baby was gone. They had a funeral for her, and from what people told me, I couldn't go, is it was the tiniest casket they had ever seen. She was only about 5 lbs. And the sobs from the father carrying the casket, made everyone break out into goosebumps and cry themselves.
During that time at work, we had
- a nurse's aid's son got hit by a hit and run driver on his scooter, hit him so hard it knocked him out of his shoes
- another nurse's sister was found dead mysteriously, they think her husband had something to do with it
- a doctor's son committed suicide
We felt we had a black cloud over us. I even made the comment to someone that "my faith in God,is shaken". And someone told me, it should make it stronger, and I went to church and it did. I am not a good churchgoer, much to my mother's dismay, so I am not going to even go there with you, I can't suggest to you something I don't do myself.

I do hope you listen to Tonya and others with an open mind. I am not saying you will have been reborn or anything. I just hope you realize that our God IS A LOVING GOD. And an awesome God.
Good day!

My friends that lost the baby, had another baby girl, 3 mos early, I asked for prayer for her in March I believe, and she is doing beautifully. I saw her yesterday and she is a happy 7 mos old that is absolutley adorable!!!


(I will be gone for a week, so don't be offended if I don't respond!)

[SugarGirl]

I'm sorry to hear about all of your tragedies. I, too, have had many, but they are not the reason why I don't believe in the traditional sense. To be honest, no one knows why things happen for sure. We can have our best guesses, and claim it was because God loved/hated you, but that won't get you anywhere really. What I have done when bad things came my way, was just to say to myself that it could always have been worse and that I can either learn from this or continue to let it hurt me and tear me apart. I choose to learn. And that has nothing to do with religion, just life skills.


Also...if you never experience pain and sorrow, how can you ever truly appreciate how wonderful happiness is?

[Former User]

Scroll up a bit folks, Karen said to go and discuss about this somewhere else....

[Karen]

I have emailed Ann, as her message box here is full.

[Andie]

:(
This sucks everytime I start to have a good conversation it is put to a stop some way.

Excuse me while I go sulk



:(

[Karen]

Andie, don't sulk. Just start a new, other conversation! And I didn't close the thread, either You can email or PM anyone to continue the conversation if you wish to get into a heated argument about religion ... or politics ...

[Rottieluver45]

Andie you can e-mail me of PM me anytime you want to have a good conversation! I`m sure you can do that with anyone!

[Andie]

I could reply but I've been having a very bad day and I've been very nice up til this point so I won't ruin that.
Let's just say I'm upset and leave it to that.

[Andie]

Thanks Rottieluver I'll do that just not tonight. I just feel like vegging for a while, clearing my head, and doing some thinking.

[Rottieluver45]

Okay I know only an idiot would do this but,I am,so lets try again!


Wow:eek:!! Look at this picture! It`s supposed to be an angel!

http://www.artbell.com/images/wtcangel.jpg

(Your line: WOW!!)

[Aspen and Misty]

I think I am supposed to say wow WOW! How neat! :D Just to humor you Rottielover45

[Rottieluver45]

LOL!! Thank you!

[Ann]

I won't be replying to the things said by shais_mom, popcornbird, SugarGirl and you others because Karen asked me not to in her email. I'll probably just email you people seperately instead if I get the time.

Can I ask for one favor though? Seeing how you don't want me to post my opinions here anymore, can't everyone please do the same? It just feels a little bit unfair that everyone's replying to my post saying things about God's love that I REALLY want to reply too but I can't. Sorry if that's selfish, it just frustrates me.

Thanks for a nice discussion while it lasted everyone! And Karen, while I might not really agree with your decision, I understand and respect it.

[sammi]

Ann, Were you on this board before and your boyfriend had a web site and I beleive that guy was very much against america? Maybe it was someone else - just wondering.

[Ann]

Originally posted by sammi
Ann, Were you on this board before and your boyfriend had a web site and I beleive that guy was very much against america? Maybe it was someone else - just wondering.

Yeah, "that guy" would be my boyfriend alright. I think I already said (in this thread even) that I was on these forums a loooong time ago and left for several reasons (amusingly enough one of the reasons was because a member of Pet Talk back then told me that my boyfriend brainwashed me into thinking the way I do/did and that I was just his "pawn"), so it's not as if I'm trying to hide it or anything if that's what you think! I have my own reasons for my thoughts and opinions, and he honestly have nothing to do with that. And BTW, it was also his site/forum that was shut down by the USA government.

Anyways, like I said, I'm not supposed to be posting in this thread so please email or PM these sort of questions to me in the future. Thanks :)

[Karen]

Thanks Ann, and thanks everyone else for complying ... she's right in that if other folks continue to talk about it, and I've asked her not too, that's not fair!

If you have questions of Ann, email her! :)

[bnormal]

The picture is interesting. Is it an angel? Who knows? Is the face of the devil in the smoke? Who knows? I haven't paid much attention to the devil in the smoke and now the angel flying around pictures. I think this kind of trivializes the 3000 or so people who were murdered in the WTC that day. And to the original poster I am in no way saying that was your intent.

Let me offer my .02 worth on this God/No God theme: What I believe shouldn't matter to anyone else just as I really don't care what others believe. But consider this:

If their is a God I believe He would want us to be a creation of people who love his entire creation. Thats right, love even those who have different opinions. BUT LOVE EACH OTHER JUST THE SAME!

If their isn't a God then we all better realize that we are here on this planet together and for a short time. We are ALL from the same family. Don't get so caught up in being right and proving wrong. BUT LOVE EACH OTHER JUST THE SAME!

Love isn't a passive emotion...in reality love is something we either choose to give or choose not to give...only I control whether I am a person who loves or not.

On a lighter note: can you imagine the discussions we would get into if our pets could speak? Can you imagine the food arguments!

[sammi]

Thank you for answering Ann. I won't ask anymore questions - but, for the other members who are wondering what I was refering to, it was an old post.

[I edited out this reference, and the link to the website. She stated to me that much of what is there she no longer believes, etc. and we're better off just not pointing people there for everyone's sake. - Karen]

[Uabassoon]

I just saw this thread today. I hope no one gets upset for what I have to say, because I guess we really aren't supposed to be posting anymore, but I would like to get this out. Please know that they way I feel are my own personal belifes and feelings, and because I feel it is right for me does not mean that I think what I feel is what everyone else should feel.
I was raised very catholic, and I enjoyed going to church and going to catholic school. But now things have changed in my life. I was born a female and am now in the process of becoming a male. Of course the Catholic church didn't agree with this, but I didn't lose my faith. I still haven't lost my faith. Now I'm not saying that everyone who is Catholic or religous or Christian thinks I'm evil or wrong, but it was hard for me to go somewhere and love God when people are telling me that god doesn't love me because of what I am doing. And I'm not saying that there aren't any religions or churchs or places of worship that won't accept me. I went to a "gay friendly" church for awhile, but I don't feel that I should have to go to a special church. I should be able to choose any place of worship that I want, but I am unable too. So instead I worship God from my own house, and I try to live my life as best as I can. I am happy with my life and the decisions I have made.
Once again I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

[Redneck Pit Lover]

I, myself, thought the pictures was great.:) :cool: ;)

[Soledad]

up to two per cent of babies are born intergender (having both sex organs). I hope you find your way without too much further ignorance or discrimination, Uabassoon. Good luck with your journey.

[Nomilynn]

I just want to say good luck to you Uabassoon. I think it's great that you are comfortable sharing that kind of thing as well. I just wanted to echo Soledad's sentiments :)

[Miss Meow]

Same same to Nomilynn and Soledad's comments. The world needs diversity, honesty, love and kindness - stay brave and true to yourself.

[Former User]

Ann, you have no need to say you are sorry because you replied. It's not fair that others can post about you here and then you aren't allowed to reply.

Actually, Karen asked to leave this thread alone already, why didn't you???? (not meaning you Ann, you didn't participate anymore).

I don't understand either why Sammi brought all that up, feeling better now Sammi? Nothing what you brought up, has anythng to do with this thread, you are just trying to make Ann look like the bad person here.

I personally happen to like Ann, and a lot. She's very fine young woman, with her OWN opinions, and she doesn't follow everyones opinions, but makes her own. That's the main reason I like her, reminds of me a bit ;) . Anyway, I hope this thread will be closed and maybe deleted, Ann does NOT deserve this crap!


EDIT NOTE: this was a reply to Ann's post that was above mine but got deleted.

[sasvermont]

You know, everyone here has the ability and opportunity the display their life experiences and true self the way they want. If you put every detail about yourself on the web, then you are a target. Good or bad. Kind or evil. Happy or sad. Whatever it is, you get what you ask for.....a response. If you don't like people's reactions, then don't put the information out there.

[Logan]

I was the first one to respond on this original post. Boy, has it gotten off track since then. I agree that a lot of this discussion could be reserved for email and private messages. If we could discuss it calmly, then it might even have a place here in the General Section of Pet Talk. Our religious beliefs, whatever they are, make us what we are, and who we are. And our love for our pets is a common thread, regardless of our religious or political beliefs.

But Pet Talk isn't here for criticism or cursing (this is the part that has upset and disappointed me the most), or backstabbing or pointing fingers. We have a wide range of ages and nationalities represented here. I would never let my 11 year old daughter join or read even Pet Talk on her own because of the chance that she would see a thread like this one. :( And there is so much good here, that it is a shame I can't. I stand firmly in my faith, and I'll gladly discuss it privately or publicly with anyone who is willing to listen. But the anger that is coming from both sides of this discussion are just too much. I'm going to take my own advice, and avoid it from now on. I hope everyone else will too.

My prayer is that we can find topics of interest that we can all participate in, without fighting. This is my "getaway" place, where I come for enjoyment. This thread has become more tense than most of my real life situations.

Logan

[Karen]

Folks, I deleted Ann's post here, and Pm's her. I'm going in and deleting other comments to it.

Just let this part of this thread die, will you?

Pet Tak is normally a kind, loving place. Did your mom ever tell you "If you can't say anything nice ..." On this thread, please keep that in mind. And if you EVER want to complain about a user PM ME! instead of making a public statement and prolonging things.

Everyone, right now, go skritch a pet. If you can't, go look at today's dog, or cat, or pet, and feel happier, okay?

[Logan]

Thank you, Karen. :) I have seven lovely furry and feathered heads that would love to be kissed and scratched this morning!!! I'll be busy for a while now!!! :D

[Ann]

Karen, seeing how in your PM you said that you deleted my post because it used profanity, but why couldn't you just have edited out the cussing then (like you did before) instead of deleting my whole post?! I said things in there that I really wanted to be read. I thought I had the right to defend myself when people said my boyfriend made them want to vomit and you just deleted it all?!

Fine. Whatever.