Official Prong Collar Advocate

[NicoleLJ]

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LIKE WOW. If I had know 5yrs ago what I know now I would never have dissed the prong collar. Talk about a totally different reaction. Here is todays adventure.

Put the halti on Ajax to drive to Lethbridge to get the prong collar. As soon as we got outside he started to drag me around. Which is what he has been doing since he discovered he could. All happy and so on. Anyway get the big lug into the car and go to one of the pet stores in Lethbridge. Get there and fit one of the medium collars for him. We had to take out on of the links to get it to sit properly. Which is fine since it means we have an extra link to add if his next gets any bigger(hope not). Anyway he gets up from his sit and attempts to pull me over to the puppy snacks(they have a ton of open bins at this store at his level.) As soon as the slack went tight and the collar tightened a bit he got the strangest look on his face and backed up to my side and looked at me. I didn't have to correct him or say a thing. Talk about shocked. So when I went to walk forward he tried agian to take me to the snacks. Same thing happened. I couldn't stop grinning. As soon as he sat at my side he got a ton of praise and treats. It was like magic. I know no training aid is magic but you all know what I mean.

I walked him around the store and any time he would got to sniff or inspect anything I would give the quick correction you all describe(probably not as good as you prong experienced people are but as fast as I could. Just a quick flick and release). and say leave it and he would instantly leave it and LOOK AT ME. WOW. My almost 10 month old bone head puppy was acting smart. I kept walking him around and praising him till I didn't even have to hold the leash(attached to me at my waist). He walked besided me and looked at me almost all the time and esspecially when I praised him. And was doing the automatic sits when I stop.

Well I then took him out to the side walk and walked him out there for a while. After a few corrections when people would walk by or he wanted to sniff something he was back to being just as good in the pet store. SHOCK here. So then we took him to a mall that is across the street. We didn't go in the businesses just walked the mall and went into the bathroom. Agian same thing. Taught him what a bench was. So within 15 minutes I could say Ajax Bench and he would look for one and take me too it and sit next to it. YIPPY. Success. He walked the mall with a few corrections at first and then after that he was great. Walking on a loose lead and not attempting to sniff things and so on.

From there we went to a big warehouse petstore and bought some treats(I ran out). There were lots of dogs in there. So he at first tried to do his excited LETS PLAY barking. So a few corrections and it was down to some whining and then he was ignoring them except for watching them. WOW. We stayed there for about 30 minutes letting people pet him and training him.

From there we went to another mall. Agian only walked through it not going into any businesses. But the fun part there is they had a S&R booth up. One of the ladies there just retired her white Shepherd form S&R and wanted to know if we would have any pups in about 2 or 3 years. I get her my website and then hubby signed up to be a part of them. They suggested being on ground crew for a few years before getting a dog. Which is perfect timing since it will be a few years till we get anymore dogs or have a litter. They all loved Ajax and he stayed in his sit the entire time we were there tallking which was a good 20-25 minutes. Even with all the people stopping to pet him thinking he was a S&R dog(even though he was wearing his Service Dog In Training bandana). They had another S&R dog there too so they just assumed he was one to and the public gave him a ton of attention which he soaked right up. THen we finished walking the mall and went to a park. Agian he was well behaved as we walked the park(mainly so he could potty, we were out and about for a good 4 hours) hen we went home.

He slept all the way home. The collar is off and he is happy as can be. But even with the collar on he was still his happy self wanting attention, wagging his tail, always wearing his huge happy grin. I am in heaven. We haev a lot of work to do now with this collar but I think it is the aid we needed with him.

Ajax is now on his way.
Nicole

[lizbud]

I'm glad you kept an open mind & tried the prong collar. I swear by it,
especially for strong dogs who can just pull you all over the place. Slight
tugs were all I ever needed to control Buddy on walks.

[Taz_Zoee]

I am so glad you posted this Nicole. I have been meaning to ask how a prong collar should fit. We have one that Bruce had for DJ, even though I never saw him use it on him. I was thinking about trying it on Zoee, but I want it to fit properly. Can anyone tell me how it should fit? Or should I take it and Zoee somewhere for them to fit it on her?
It's great to hear how successful it was for you and Ajax. Zoee drags me to the park, barking her head off. This may be my answer as well. :) She just paws the gentle leader off her nose (although, that's probably not fitted correctly either, sigh).

[NicoleLJ]

The way I was told to fit it is that it needs to rest in the same place as a show collar so just up behind the ears. Not low down the neck like most collars. And it needs to be snug enough not to slid down. Not so tight that you can't put a finger or so under but snug enough to stay up there and not slide down loose on the neck. Hope this helps.

That is how it fits Ajax.
Nicole

[K9karen]

After taking a lot of slack for using a prong on Cody, I was glad I stuck to my guns. He was so powerful, I'm lucky my arms are still attached to my shoulders. I got the correct fit, and only used a tug sparingly. because he caught on so fast too. Within a few months, he walked with a regular collar and leash. Not always a perfect gentleman of course, but it seemed that quick tugs did the trick most of the time. Anyway, sounds like you and Ajax had a great time! What a smartie pants!

[Sevaede]

One of my neighbors started using a prong collar on her puppy. My friend/other neighbor/neighbors room mate ( :p ), also, began using a prong collar. She demonstrated it on my arm and there was absolutely no pain, discomfort, etc. I , still, probably would not use one on Spanks (she is only tiny, after all. not hard to correct on leash).

[CathyBogart]

I'm an advocate too after seeing how well it worked for my aunt's pit/viszla mix. He's a very bright, eager to please dog who gets ahead of himself sometimes. The first few times I dog-sat him were hell, and my arms were sore for days afterwards...since the prong collar came into the picture walks are a pleasure, and he definitely gets more of them now!

[lute]

I too am a strong believer in the prong collar! It made walks enjoyable with Brick and several other rescues. It's like a light goes off in their head saying "OH! I'm suppose to do it this way. Yes ma'm! Whatever you say ma'm!"

[Taz_Zoee]

The way I was told to fit it is that it needs to rest in the same place as a show collar so just up behind the ears. Not low down the neck like most collars. And it needs to be snug enough not to slid down. Not so tight that you can't put a finger or so under but snug enough to stay up there and not slide down loose on the neck. Hope this helps.

That is how it fits Ajax.
Nicole

Yes, this helps. Thank you Nicole. :) I'll give it a try next week.

[cassiesmom]

Nicole and Ajax, I'm glad you had a good outing! And it sounds like you made another fan, too. Great job following all of mom's instructions. Maybe she will give you some pets for me.

[*LabLoverKEB*]

Add me to the list! I MUST use a prong collar, Rita is pure muscle! Along with her muscles, she extremly agressive twards other dogs. I walk her at heel at all times, and use the prong collar for corrections. It's worked wonders with her!

[Suki Wingy]

I use the prong too, but I have found that a properly fitted choke/slip is stronger than the properly fitted prong. I use prong for everyday and the choke for obedience training.

[JenBKR]

LOVE the prong - without it I don't know if I would ever be able to walk Roscoe! Now he's a gentleman even off the prong ;)

[Nita]

Hello PT!
I'm a frequent lurker and a new poster.
When our rottweiler, Nick, was in obedience training
our instructor called prong collars "Rottweiler Power Steering".
We called it his "big boy collar" and he knew when he put it on he was
going on a ride. He loved it, of course.

[Denyce]

Sequoia has had dominance issues with other dogs. We finally tried a prong collar on her and the next dog she met instead of lunging and snarling she sat at Brian's side and looked up at him from just a quick correction. It isn't just the action of the collar either. I think it is also that the collar allows the hubby to feel in better control of Sequoia so that he isn't nervous that she will get away from him and bit another dog. So he is more confidant also. Just a couple of weeks ago she walked through a group of dogs that were within a foot of her and one of them was a growling mama shepard at a vet clinic and she never even lifted a lip.

Denyce

[bckrazy]

I am not a fan... but I'm glad it works for you & Ajax! Hopefully, you can wean him off of it at some point.

I just wanted to add, as a warning, make sure he doesn't begin to displace the pain he gets when he pulls, to other things that you don't want him to associate pain with. For example, you see a child on a walk; Ajax is excited and tries to pull toward the child but he's stopped by the prong. In his mind, where did the pain come from? Pulling, or the child? This is primarily why I wouldn't use training tools that are pain-based... negative associations can happen in a second, especially with a young dog. And they are much harder to reverse than they are to form. Just be careful!

[K9soul]

I just wanted to add, as a warning, make sure he doesn't begin to displace the pain he gets when he pulls, to other things that you don't want him to associate pain with. For example, you see a child on a walk; Ajax is excited and tries to pull toward the child but he's stopped by the prong. In his mind, where did the pain come from? Pulling, or the child? This is primarily why I wouldn't use training tools that are pain-based... negative associations can happen in a second, especially with a young dog. And they are much harder to reverse than they are to form. Just be careful!

I tend to disagree. First of all a prong collar if used correctly shouldn't cause pain, a correction with it should never be painful. I do agree it can be abused and misused though. I use them when I walk all three of mine to ensure I have control if I am walking them all. Singly I don't use it but more than one, they can way overpower me if something startles them or goes wrong so it's better safe than sorry. My Tommy is a really big wimp I have to say and if it caused him pain he'd run and hide when I brought it out I'm sure LOL.

The other thing is I think most dogs are smarter than we sometimes give them credit for. When they pull the collar tightens. If they see a child and pull and it tightens a bit, they (the average dog) will stop pulling and the pressure loosens, child is still there. They can easily connect that not pulling means a loose collar, in my opinion. Now if it were a shock type collar situation where there was no rhyme or reason as to where the correction was coming from, I agree they are more likely to associate it with another stimulus.

Again I think the prong can definitely be misused but I do not feel it is a pain device when used correctly.

[bckrazy]

Oh, I totally agree, Jess. I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone here who uses prongs puts their dogs through true "pain"... but, it obviously causes discomfort, or it wouldn't have any affect.

I think it is a tool that should be used as a last resort, that's just my opinion, though. And, honestly, I don't think a pet store or a busy shopping area is the ideal place to start prong training. Instead, the backyard would be a good place, or anywhere devoid of anything that the dog could associate the discomfort with, besides pulling.

[shepgirl]

Bckrazy I think you might be on to something nobody has thought of before.
I think some dogs might associate the correction with when it was corrected, for example pulling to get to someone or something.
Out trainer uses these for extrememly hard dogs so I can't wait to discuss this with her.

This triggered a memory from long ago. My friend went riding and her Sheltie tagged along, For some reason the dog screamed out in pain and my girlfriend thought the horse might have stepped on it's toes. But when she returned home the dog was limping badly and wouldn't go near her or the horse. She had it vetted and found out it was the kneecap that had turned or something, had nothing to do with the horse, it just happens with shelties. To this day, the Sheltie refuses to go near the horse.

What I don't understand is if the dog has been chosen for service work, why would someone train it with a prong? I've never seen any SD trained with a prong, facilities just don't use them.

[NicoleLJ]

Shepgirl that is just not true. You certianly like to make generalized statments. I used to be just as nieve about the prong though as you. Lots of trainers who are and facilities and owner trainers are using the prong today. For the main reason that it helps a weaker werson work a stronger dog. There are many a person that are in wheelchairs, or have walking problems or so on that are owner training their dogs. They need something to help them train their dog that is easy to use and does not take a lot of strength. This is the tool they use. Just because you have not see it does not mean it is not used.

Please do not make generalized statemments about isues you know nothing about. I am on many Service dog boards that have members that owner trained their dog and members that got their dogs from facilities. Some of them from both groups use prongs. They are the ones that helped me decided to use it on Ajax.

Again just because you have not seen it does not mean it is not done. And I suggest you start reading what you type before you post it. Your generalized statements about groups of people are starting to tick me off.
Nicole

[Jessika]

I firmly believe that prong/choke collars, etc, are a wonderful training aid when used correctly. Unfortunately many people do not use them correctly and keep them on as their permanent collars, etc, and I feel that is wrong...

I'm seriously considering a prong for Jamie. She is so bad on a leash again since we don't have to walk her to potty like we had to when we were living in an apartment.

[shepgirl]

I'm still discussing the issue that Bckrazy mentioned with our trainer and she's looking into it since she said no one had thought of that but the possibility is there depending on the dog. By the way, she said to thank you for that genius moment....lol.

Nicole My best friend works in a dog training Academy ans they do not use prongs and she also never has seen it. Can you imagine a prong in the hands of a child - it wouldn't be possible for most challenged children. Which is why they don't take in the kind of dog that would need a prong.

[Seravieve]

We have three prongs for our three. Zeke can walk well without it. He went to obedience school and is very good for J to walk. But he has a longer coat.. and we have hemp/fleece collars.. and if/when he pulls, he slips right out of them. So we walk him with the prong just so we know he wont be escaping. Bunny will pull your arm off w/o the prong. She also walks with a backpack these days.. and 6 cans of veggies to give her a good workout. She's a high strung dog, came with lots of mental baggage, so she needs a lot of direction and control. Both Zeke and Bunny are dog aggressive too, so I need to feel confident when I am walking that there is no possibility of them getting loose.

Eli now walks with one as well. He's a puller, always has been, even at 5 months when we got him. The prong works very well to keep him close.
I also walk E and B on a Y-lead (2 dog walker thingy) so they are quicker to react and easier to control with the prongs.

I understand where some might see it as a dangerous tool.. or where the negative stigma is coming from. If we take Eli into Petsmart w/ a prong, people as "Oh is he friendly?", etc.. like he's an aggressive mean dog that we so carelessly brought in a dog store. With his regular collar, none of those silly questions. And Yes it could be harmful if a dog was left unsupervised while wearing it and they got caught on something... But when used soley for walks, or when on leash, whats the big deal?

I need control of my dogs. We have tried so many other methods; Choke chain, harness, halti, regular collar, a woven slip collar, etc. Bunny escaped while wearing both the halti and the harness (not at the same time, but escaped while using each), dont ask me how.

Use what works, and to each his own.
But sign me up on the Pro-Prong list as well!

[NicoleLJ]

Nicole My best friend works in a dog training Academy ans they do not use prongs and she also never has seen it. Can you imagine a prong in the hands of a child - it wouldn't be possible for most challenged children. Which is why they don't take in the kind of dog that would need a prong.

Oh so this means you know for a FACT that know Service dog training facility, No Dog Training facility, No Service Dog Trainer, and No Dog Trainer at all will use it because your friend says so and you have never seen it? OK if you says so. I will let you believe that as I go to my service dog groups and discuss our training with our prong collars.

We use what works. Each dog is different. Is a dog bad because it needs a Prong? No. Ajax is just a very happy dog that sometimes likes to get beyond himself. The prong helps him to stay focused. And I am already finding I am correcting him less and less. And he is still his happy self getting treats from strangers, adults and kids. Giving out kisses to everyone, meeting strange dogs and wanting to play with everyone. The only difference the prong made was it gave me better control to be able to train his very happy and excitable brain.
Nicole

[DJFyrewolf36]

Im a fan. I've noticed that the majority of dogs Ive seen being trained by prong collars graduate to being well mannered without one. For the most part the prong collar is used for initial training in my experience. Using a prong collar I think its better than having the dog choke themselves getting overly exitible.

Just my opinion ;)

[bckrazy]

I'm still discussing the issue that Bckrazy mentioned with our trainer and she's looking into it since she said no one had thought of that but the possibility is there depending on the dog. By the way, she said to thank you for that genius moment....lol.

Oh jeez. I don't deserve any thanks! Just googling "prong collar issues", tons of websites with information & studies from knowledgable people come up. When you are using pain-based tools (I don't mean severe pain, just discomfort, of course) there are a lot of things that can go wrong. Even when implementing positive reinforcement training, you can accidentally reward bad habits, or use food or toys as a crutch. There are flaws in everything. It's just, some of the effects of using training tools and punishment are pretty serious and can be dangerous.

I totally agree with you, about trainers using correction collars... every single educated behaviorist or trainer I've met is vehemently against chokers, prongs, etc. I'm far from being skilled or experienced, but I know quite a few awesome trainers, and I trust their judgement. My trainers do approve of sensation harnesses, as a total last resort. They are a lot safer, gentler, and overall there is little room for error. And I've seen them work wonders with intense pullers.

[SemaviLady]

What I don't understand is if the dog has been chosen for service work, why would someone train it with a prong? I've never seen any SD trained with a prong, facilities just don't use them.
I've been disabled all my life and know many adults that are disabled since birds of a feather tend to find each other. :D Many of us use service dogs in an official or less formal capacity.

Dogs chosen for service work are NOT machines. They are still capable of having bad days and good days and facing new situations with which they are not yet comfortable. Their handlers also have built in limitations which can require some unique approaches and many disabled people cannot wait two years or more for a program trained dog, so they have to train their own using adaptive techniques. Some like me, use their own dogs that show that special talent as adults, others may adopt a younger dog and hope it turns out.

We can't generalize about handicapped people, their abilities, range of motion, ability to react in a timely manner, their strengths and weaknesses ...

hey for that matter -- step back a bit.... you cannot even generalize about an able bodied person training a dog. Put 15 able bodied people into a dog training class with dogs from different breed genres, from terriers to gun dogs, to toys, herding dogs and flock guardians, and voila... you have a collection of people who have diverse levels of different strengths and abilities, as do their dogs. Tiny frail people do not necessarily want to have a tiny frail dog. Klutzy people sometimes own fast athletic dogs. Some speedy "type A" people like to have a lumbering big dog that is slow and methodical.

There ya go. They need a trainer, communication mediator sensitive enough to find the right tools to help establish a working partnership and successful communication between each pair of members in each unique team.

That is asking a lot even with able bodied people. We know many able bodied people leave a class taught by an able bodied trainer and yet they still have a dog out of control when they leave class. - Left (leash) arm longer than the right? (check) The dog believes the leash is made of rubber? (check) Dog pees at every sign post and ignores the handler? (check) The dog still leaves in a heartbeat if it sees a squirrel? (check)

Pray tell, what kind of dog trainer was that? "Politically correct" artist who paints by number? Sometimes you have to be a Picasso. You do have to blend tools and 'colors' and dirt in order to get success.

Dog trainers who are attuned to their students and the student's dogs know that each part of the team creates a potential need for a different approach and sometimes different equipment. To think otherwise is rather arrogant.

A person I know who has MS and one leg, helps to train other people with their service dogs from wheel chair (on her good days). Some of these people may be paralyzed in a limb but they need a big dog to help them with their balance to help them feel safe when they are walking alone in the inner city. Do you know how to help train them to train their dogs while they are manipulating a walker or wheelchair? What if they are having a bad day and have spasms? Remember this is a service dog that will have to work without a trainer overseeing them when the handler has a bad day. A prong collar may help a person who has wrist problems or who needs to lock their hands onto a walker.

Many disabled people who train their own dogs are quite attuned to dog language of their own dog(s). If they see their service dog yawning or averting their eyes, they know something is up and know to look to see what the dog is telling them. Some of them due to their specific limitations and even preferences, do use prong collars - I have only used it for specific situations and sometimes it is years before I dust it off again. Some use ruffled bungees to cover the collars to protect them from being harrassed by 'dog experts' who know so much better than anyone and who jump to conclusions. :(

I have some pics and a blog post about my service dogs here (http://www.cobankopegi.com/blog/2008/01/my-anatolian-service-dogs.html).

[NicoleLJ]

SemaviLady - Awesome post.
Nicole

[shepgirl]

Bckrazy, of course you deserve praise and a lot of credit. If not for you mentioning this fact we would have continued training with the same old ways. The trainer is so busy, she doesn't get much time to ggogle anything, She's one of the best and to remain the best she continues taking clinics and courses on dog behavior. So this really helped her . She will be incorporating this in her next newsletter. We try as hard as we can to rectify problems, but with the multitude of dogs with individual temperaments it gets hard to follow what everybody seems to take for granted...focus on those different temperaments.
Of course we have the flunkies, but we consider the owners flunkies since they never pay attention, never come back for the next lesson with their dog prepared, etc.
Our trainer is now working on revamping her whole teaching methods.
Take a bow Bckrazy....

[shepgirl]

SemaviLady - I didn't realize you were talking about people training their own dogs. I thought we were talking about training of dogs in facilities. That's why I was saying they never use prong collars. But yes, I watch people train their family dogs with prongs all the time, the prong isn't new to me. One place that will absolutely NOT use them is PetSmart. For some reason it is against the store policy, just found that out while talking to a salesclerk while doing some shopping there.

[NicoleLJ]

SemaviLady - I didn't realize you were talking about people training their own dogs. I thought we were talking about training of dogs in facilities. That's why I was saying they never use prong collars. But yes, I watch people train their family dogs with prongs all the time, the prong isn't new to me. One place that will absolutely NOT use them is PetSmart. For some reason it is against the store policy, just found that out while talking to a salesclerk while doing some shopping there.

Shepgirl she was not talking about family dogs and you know it. She was talking about dogs being trained to be Service Dogs. Dogs that are trained to be Service dogs with the prong. Stop twisting things.
Nicole

[shepgirl]

SemivaLady --- I love your Anatolians, we have a few around here as well, but they aren't that well known. Supposedly make good guard dogs for livestock.

Anyway, about the training of dogs....you really don't need anything but love and understanding to train a dog. I've watched some people train their dogs with no collar otr leash.
This is where you can apply the old adage "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".
I've watched people train dogs with almost every kind of gimmick out there. It doesn't mean the dog wouldn't learn without them, but their choice is to use training tools.which is perfectly fine, I've also used training aids.
But this is why a SD facility would never use a prong to train a dog for service work. They are amazing the way they train dogs. If a dog comes along that needs a prong or harsh training methods he is simply ruled out of the program and given to a pet home or back to the foster home that nurtured them. They can also become EAD.
The ordinairy trainer has more choice in what they wish to use to train their dogs. Without prongs some owners would have to give their dogs up, so prongs do have their place in training. A 65 yr old lady would never have the strength to train a boistrous boxer, or a strong willed large dog, but with a prong it gives her the advantage she needs. a time and place for everything.

[NicoleLJ]

SemivaLady --- I love your Anatolians, we have a few around here as well, but they aren't that well known. Supposedly make good guard dogs for livestock.

Anyway, about the training of dogs....you really don't need anything but love and understanding to train a dog. I've watched some people train their dogs with no collar otr leash.
This is where you can apply the old adage "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".
I've watched people train dogs with almost every kind of gimmick out there. It doesn't mean the dog wouldn't learn without them, but their choice is to use training tools.which is perfectly fine, I've also used training aids.
But this is why a SD facility would never use a prong to train a dog for service work. They are amazing the way they train dogs. If a dog comes along that needs a prong or harsh training methods he is simply ruled out of the program and given to a pet home or back to the foster home that nurtured them. They can also become EAD.
The ordinairy trainer has more choice in what they wish to use to train their dogs. Without prongs some owners would have to give their dogs up, so prongs do have their place in training. A 65 yr old lady would never have the strength to train a boistrous boxer, or a strong willed large dog, but with a prong it gives her the advantage she needs. a time and place for everything.

Agian you are false. Some facilities do use prongs. Why? Because some people, Like people that are severally paralized, are very weak in the hands so they need a collar that will get a quick response. Agian just because you have not see it does not mean it is not done. I am on enough training groups for Service dogs that have trainers from facilities and owner trainers to know this.
Nicole

[SemaviLady]

SemaviLady - I didn't realize you were talking about people training their own dogs. I thought we were talking about training of dogs in facilities. That's why I was saying they never use prong collars.I'm not posting to argue but to clarify some core issues. :)

The OP was talking about real life scenarios and you happened to mention SD facilities in the course of the discussion, which I perceived as a general example for supporting the argument of non-use of the prong collar.

If you examine your comment, you say these facilities train without prongs.

Here is a main issue. Trainers in facilities are not not your average joe and they are not training average dogs. Do be aware that dogs chosen by SD 'facilities' for training are a subset of reality and the entire scenario has little similarity to real life circumstances and actual users of SDs and the eventual owners who need control over their dogs.

Compare real life dogs to the following:
Facility trained dogs are often expected to be certain generic breeds with selectively endorsed, despecialized behaviors. To further differentiate them from 'typical dogs', most used in service work are initially screened using a Vollhard type test and other protocols (and yet still result in 50% failure on average but this is another issue and an area where I also have experience).

What is "despecialized"? These dogs represent a population that are not intense herders, earthdogs, hunters, sighthounds, protection breeds, flock guardians, or gun dogs. These selected are not highly independent dogs which can have strong opinions about what their canine purpose on earth shall be and so ...they are ruled out. Dogs that are chosen are usually social, people oriented, medium or softer in temperament and are characteristically despecialized representatives of a limited number of breeds.

Secondly: Regardless of breed, these dogs are expected to be trainable for the professional SD trainer who is using predefined "accepted" protocols of training -- or else, the dogs are systematically removed from the training program when they are not adaptable to the program's methods.

Above selection scenario has elements of 'fixing the outcome' due to preselection ...and continuous removal of dogs from the programs.

It does not represent the general population of dogs. It can hardly be used as an endorsement for the non-use of prong collars.

I am not dissing positive methods of training method that work.

BF Skinner wrote about operant conditioning. It was only later that some took the methods, applied them to dogs and later there started to be a sort of religious jihad against other methods.

And finally, back to the program trained service dogs -- another reality check. :( ---

SD users (and the public) do run into certified program trained dogs whose owners are not able to consistently "perform" with their dogs with the same level of response as did their dog's trainers. --- NOT that it is happened, but to think that SD trainers could actually take a moral high ground due to the fact that they personally did not need prongs to train dogs to meet their own training goals, has very little practical relevance to the SD user who is not as 'accomplished' or able bodied enough -- and who desperately needs to stop their dog 5 seconds from now, from ripping their arm partly out of its socket. A prong could fix that in a second without argument from the dog.

But yes of course, bravo to the dog's initial trainer who didn't personally need it themselves. :confused:

On my site, I have written:

The best Trainers are those who never stop learning.

* They are the ones who have learned not to base their opinions about the usefulness of a training method, on the inability of someone (or a population of people) to understand and learn to use a method correctly.
* They are the ones best equipped to work with the sometimes unconventional (but so true-to-life) combinations of individual idiosyncrasies, personal strengths, and weaknesses which present with each student-dog/handler team.

. . .even when it means they must revise previously held concepts and challenge old ideas.

[SemaviLady]

SemivaLady --- I love your Anatolians, we have a few around here as well, but they aren't that well known. Supposedly make good guard dogs for livestock.Thanks, and yes that is their heritage. :) They are very independent and tend not to transfer authority very well to other members of the same family sometimes. They are sometimes inclined to treat a person like a clod of dirt if they have other priorities. Selective deafness and all of that. So it takes a very specialized approach to modify their training and find ways to motivate them for different needs.
http://www.cobankopegi.com/my/pt/pupsheep-ivan2007.jpg
Above, a couple pups with sheep.

Many Anatolian breeders have taken dogs back from 'pet dog trainers' who gave up on their Anatolians. Some had truly met their match in these dogs. Most pet trainers also do not compete in formal obedience as the degree of control & precision in sport training is just not 'their thing'. This is not to say that Anatolians are sport dogs but this is an example of why it is that some trainers are not as well balanced in their theory work as they think they are. It does seem that 'pet dog trainers' are very common now and some seem to be very opinionated. That's fine by me. We are all entitled to an opinion.

I have had problems however when the prospective owners of Anatolians report back to me saying that a trainer in their area will not accept Anatolians in their classes (I've seen the similar frustrations in reports on Caucasion Ovcharka and on Kuvasz, among other flock guardian breeds). This is not a general rule, but it does happen that some flock guardian breeds are refused outright before even being seen. This is hopefully changing. It's probably more common for owners of bull breeds to automatically be refused attendance in some training classes.


Anyway, about the training of dogs....you really don't need anything but love and understanding to train a dog. I've watched some people train their dogs with no collar otr leash. This is where you can apply the old adage "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".There is a danger in this in assuming all dogs and breeds of dogs are the same. This is why some of the Anatolians I know had to go back to their breeders. The expectations of the trainers were not prepared. Breeders did warn, this is a very independent dog, blah blah, but sometimes trainers are a bit overconfident. The breeder is hopeful and places the dog with this perfect sounding home, and before the dog is 18 months (in one case, only four months of age) the dog is back with the breeder. It is generally true that both the handler and the dog need to find a level of communication that is successful and I think sometimes Anatolians really drive that point home where it will not soon be forgotten. For some individuals the path is a bit easier and they wonder, are all Anatolians like this? -- their next one usually shows them the ropes. :)


But this is why a SD facility would never use a prong to train a dog for service work. They are amazing the way they train dogs. If a dog comes along that needs a prong or harsh training methods he is simply ruled out of the program As I wrote in a previous post, this is an option for trainers who can choose the types of dogs they will train.

This is not a real world situation for trainers who MUST find ways to establish communication, trust and respect between a human and a canine student.

There is no cop out for them.


The ordinairy trainer has more choice in what they wish to use to train their dogs.Depending on the person, their skills and motivation may or may not allow them to cop out on different situations.


Without prongs some owners would have to give their dogs up, so prongs do have their place in training. A 65 yr old lady would never have the strength to train a boistrous boxer, or a strong willed large dog, but with a prong it gives her the advantage she needs. a time and place for everything.I agree. I don't think we disagree on anything previously written. Just that we have a different way of approaching it. I like having multiple choice in training methods.

Since I am a breeder of a potentially difficult and enormous breed, I often have to keep the human, canine and sometimes livestock behavior elements in mind when making a match or creating a solution. I usually advise people not to fight fire with fire when it comes to Anatolians, but there are times when strong adversives are necessary. The Anatolian has a very high pain threshold and electrified fencing may not hold them in if they see a predator such as a bear, lion or cheetah on the other side of a fence. Likewise in training with a human, sometimes a firm voice or a look (even a raspberry) can put them off (make them obey), other times you have to yank them off their feet. Their drive and gameness is legendary in Turkey.

[SemaviLady]

I , still, probably would not use one on Spanks (she is only tiny, after all. not hard to correct on leash).Spanks may probably never need a stronger collar or harness than you use, but I have had communications with toy dog owners who do use mini microprongs (http://www.leerburg.com/prong.htm#micro). If they have a dog with a collapsing trachea and the dog is sometimes a handful (a chi trying to take on big dogs when on walkies, eg, a Great Dane), sometimes the collars really help settle the little dog down and the dog doesn't need to be handled roughly at all in anything like a 'correction'.

Picking up a small fiesty dog when it has annoyed a larger one, even one on leash, can be dangerous for the handler and the small dog, because the large dog may reach up to see the small dog's face again, esp if the small dog is still yapping --and the owner can get scratched or knocked down. So keeping the dog on the ground when it is an option works fine, and some do use the micro mini prongs.

[shepgirl]

Thanks for the picture SemiviLady. I had heard that they put the pups in with the livestock to let them mingle and protect.
About the prongs, yes we are definitely on the same wavelength, you just express it better than I do. I don't have the enrgy to go into long descriptive posts so I was very interested in reading yours. I think the only difference is that I have never known an owner trained dog where you seem to be familiar with them. I guess maybe each country has their own methods.

On a side note, I know what you mean about training the Anotolian. I talked one of the neighbors to attend classes and it was a riot at first. Those are STRONG dogs...lol. But, believe it or not, this guy graduated with the rest of the class, But his dog is gifted for protedting his sheep and other livestock.Aloof is a mild word for their attitude...he knows us well and will sometimes greet us with a wagging tail where as on other occasions he will act as if he can look right through us ....lol. Gorgeous dogs although I really don't think my capabilities lie with that breed .....