Child welfare in Texas removes children from polygamist compound UPDATE #13

[Catty1]

Wasn't this guy already charged and found guilty of something related to this? :rolleyes:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/polygamist_retreat

Fri Apr 4, 4:53 PM

By The Associated Press

ELDORADO, Texas - Child welfare officials and state troopers have removed a busload of children from a secretive Texas religious retreat built by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs.

The children were taken after authorities received a complaint to state child welfare investigators.

A spokeswoman for Child Protective Services says a white bus that drove out of the compound accompanied by state troopers was filled with children being taken away from the compound.

There's no immediate word on how many children were taken.

The bus left the compound filled with what appeared to be mostly girls.

Authorities surrounded the retreat, built by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, late Thursday.

They served search and arrest warrants Friday. The children were removed several hours later.

[jackie]

In November, Jeffs was sentenced to two consecutive sentences of five years to life in prison in Utah for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who wed her cousin in an arranged marriage in 2001.

Sick!

What is wrong with people who prey on the children they should be trying to protect. :(

[sasvermont]

I know that I do not agree with this religious group, and think they are a bunch of nutballs. BUT.....this is about religious beliefs....and I wonder why our government has the right to barge in and take children. There are lots of girls having sex at age 14 and under, with cousins, and geessseee, they don't get arrested. I know, I know. I don't like it but these folks are at least feeding and clothing and educating their families. The word cult comes to mind, but this craziness is based on their religion.

I once attended a "gypsy wedding"....in Philadelphia. The kids were well under 16. I don't know if they were related, but I do know that the pool of genes (as well as the weak genes) were very close in the reproduction process for the group. It is their culture to marry early and stay within the group. You should have seen the gold necklaces everyone wore. That is how they invest their money....it is quite portable and not taxed by the IRS.

Anyway, I don't think these folks are right but I do respect their rights to practice their religion, however odd and crazy it may seem.

Just my opinion, doesn't make in right! :eek:

[shepgirl]

Polygamy is not practicing religious beliefs. To me the government has all the rights to butt in, this is a case of child abuse. Church of Latter Day Saints are well known for the abuse of young girls. From experience I know how they work within this cult...my own niece was involved until someone finally opened her eyes. She had 3 children who were abused (in the name of the Lord) as they blatantly put it and to this day they are all seeing psychiatrists, I don't think they will ever be normal.
To say the government has no right to protect these kids is horrendous, someone has to do it. We're not talking about two people who get involved voluntarily, we're talking abuse hidden in the form of a religious cult.
These people actually think they will become gods at the end, they also act like gods in public around other people...they are always right and the rest of the world is always wrong.

[lady_zana]

Church of Latter Day Saints are well known for the abuse of young girls.

I just wanted to point out that while you are right about the abuse of the young girls, it is the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who have been part of this abuse, to the best of my knowledge. It is a branch that broke off from the main Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons).

[Catty1]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/usreport_usa_mormons_abuse_dc

Sat Apr 5, 6:11 AM

SAN ANTONIO (Reuters) - Texas authorities said on Friday that they were investigating a potential child-abuse case at a ranch operated by followers of a breakaway Mormon sect linked to jailed polygamist leader Warren Jeffs.
ADVERTISEMENT

No arrests had been made as of late Friday afternoon but officials said 52 girls have been removed from the secretive sect's compound.

"We took 52 children out, they were all girls between the ages of six months and 17 years," said Patrick Crimmins, a spokesman for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services.

"Eighteen of the 52 have been legally removed into state custody," he added.

A spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety said no suspect had been taken into custody but a search and arrest warrant had been issued.

The ranch is about 120 miles northwest of San Antonio and is a compound for a renegade Mormon sect called the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, which is under the sway of Jeffs, a self-proclaimed prophet.

In November, Jeffs was sentenced in a Utah court to 10 years to life in prison as an accomplice to rape for forcing a 14-year-old girl to marry her 19-year-old first cousin. Jeffs is awaiting trial on similar charges for arranged marriages in Arizona.

Local media reports said the Texas compound had been sealed off by investigators.

Crimmins earlier said he could not comment on the nature of the investigation but said "generally speaking, an abuse and neglect investigation is triggered when there is a complaint to the agency."

The mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the Mormon faith is officially known, renounced the practice of polygamy more than a century ago and is at pains to distance itself from breakaway factions that bless multiple marriages, often involving adolescent girls.

(Reporting by Jim Forsyth in San Antonio and Ed Stoddard in Dallas; Editing by Philip Barbara)

[Catty1]

http://cfcn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/scfcn/CTVNews/20080405/polygamist_retreat_080405

Standoff emerges at polygamist retreat in Texas

Standoff at polygamist retreat

CTV.ca News Staff

Sat. April. 5 2008 9:23 PM ET

Sect leaders on a remote polygamist compound in West Texas are refusing to let authorities search a temple for a 16-year-old girl who was reportedly physically abused.

In preparation for the worst, ambulances have been sent to the compound, Prosecutor Allison Palmer told the San Angelo Standard-Times on Saturday.

Since Friday, child welfare officials have removed nearly 200 women and children from the religious retreat, built by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs.

The whole series of events was triggered last Monday when the 16-year-old girl in question made a call to officials and alleged physical abuse, said Marleigh Meisner, a spokesperson for Texas Child Protective Services (CPS).

A search warrant was then issued, allowing state troopers to enter the retreat to look for evidence of a marriage between the girl and a 50-year-old man.

The warrant states that the girl had a baby eight months ago, at the age of 15.

On Friday, CPS removed 52 girls from the compound.

Meisner said another 131 residents were removed overnight.

By Saturday afternoon, 137 children and 46 women were being housed and interviewed by officials.

"They seem to be doing fine," Meisner said.

Meanwhile, four investigators remain inside the polygamist compound searching for more children.

The ranch, once an exotic game farm, covers 670 hectares and is near Eldorado, although the nearest major community is San Angelo.

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), bought the property in 2004 for US$700,000.

Members moved there from another community on the border between Arizona and Utah.

Earlier Saturday, Meisner said the whereabouts of the 16-year-old who called officials and the girl's baby is unknown.

Police are also believed to still be looking for Dale Barlow, 50.

Officials, who said Friday that Barlow had not been found, declined to comment on his status Saturday -- stating that a state judge had issued a gag order.

Texas law forbids girls younger than 16 from marrying, even with parental approval.

Most of these girls have little experience outside the closed world of the FLDS, said Meisner.

FLDS leader Jeffs is currently in prison. A Utah court sentenced him to five years to life in prison for being an accomplice in the rape of a 14-year-old girl in 2001. She married her cousin in an arranged marriage.

Jeffs is also awaiting trial on charges in Arizona. He is charged with four counts each of incest and sexual conduct with a minor. The charges stem from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives.

The FLDS split from the more mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as the Mormons, decades after the latter renounced polygamy in 1890.

With files from The Associated Press

[smokey the elder]

Mormonism gave up polygamy because they agreed to live by the law of the land they lived in.

[shepgirl]

LADY ZANA--------sorry, I should have mentioned that. I took it for granted that everyone knew about the break off from the regular church of Latter Day Saints.
Not all Latter Day Saints believers follow the church rules, some still believe in harsh punishment for children. The cult is something beyond comprehension though.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

I know that I do not agree with this religious group, and think they are a bunch of nutballs. BUT.....this is about religious beliefs....and I wonder why our government has the right to barge in and take children.
So, if someone's "religious beliefs" included sacrificing children to a volcano god or something, the government should let them? :(

[RICHARD]

Did anyone notice that they have a washed out, 1850's style of the Stepford Wives.

If anything the men should have their arse kicked for making women look that way...

And what was going on with the cult woman and that UNIBROW.

That was frigging scary to look at.....I'm still skeezed out about it! :eek:

[Catty1]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080418/world/polygamist_retreat

Some of the children seized from Texas polygamist compound are Canadians

1 hour, 58 minutes ago

By Michelle Roberts, The Associated Press

http://d.yimg.com/ca.yimg.com/p/080418/capress/i120857244017352011.jpg?x=289&y=345&sig=oPFqHuNapv9RsTU3oagYBw--

SAN ANGELO, Texas - The attorney general for British Columbia said Friday he was alerted by officials in Ottawa that some of the children taken from a polygamist compound inhabited by members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are Canadians.

The confirmation came hours after Angie Voss of Texas Child Protection Services testified at a custody hearing for 416 children, seized in a raid earlier this month because of evidence of physical and sexual abuse, that some of the children before the court are Canadians.

State District Judge Barbara Walther, meanwhile, ruled that the children will stay in state custody.

She also ordered that all children and parents be given genetic testing. Child welfare officials have said they've had difficulty determining how the children and parents are related because of evasive or changing answers.

In Vancouver, Attorney General Wally Oppal said he had been alerted about some Canadians.

"I received the same report from Ottawa so it seems that that is accurate," said Oppal.

He said the Justice Department or External Affairs called "indicating that there are Canadians."

"What that means is that External Affairs would get involved in something like that."

But Foreign Affairs in Ottawa did not confirmin what Oppal said he was told by federal officials privately.

"To date no confirmation has been received on the citizenship status of the children," said Eugenie Cormier-Lessonde, a department spokeswoman.

Canadian consular officials have been in contact with Texas officials, she said.

Oppal said "this has been an issue for quite some time in that it has been said that at Bountiful there are said to be some Americans there as well."

"It sort of adds another dimension to the problem here. That is, that people move in and out of these communities and it's sometimes difficult to find out who's where and what."

Bountiful, located in southeastern B.C., is home to a polygamist compound.

Oppal said the call from Ottawa was "giving us a heads up because they know that we're involved in that same issue here.

Earlier in San Angelo, Voss testified that some of the children are Canadian citizens, although the New York Times reported that she did not say how many, or their age or sex.

Girls in the west Texas polygamous sect enter into underage marriages without resistance because they are ruthlessly indoctrinated from birth to believe disobedience will lead to their damnation, experts for the state testified Friday.

The renegade Mormon sect's belief system "is abusive. The culture is very authoritarian," said Dr. Bruce Perry, a psychiatrist and an authority on children in cults.

But under questioning from defence lawyers the state's experts acknowledged that the sect mothers are loving parents and that there were no signs of abuse among younger girls and any of the boys.

A witness for the parents who was presented by defence lawyers as an expert on the FLDS disputed the state's contention that a bed in the retreat's gleaming white temple was never used to consummate the marriages of underage girls to much older men.

Instead, John Walsh testified, it is used for naps during the sect's long worship services.

"There is no sexual activity in the temple," Walsh said.

Lawyers for the children and the parents appeared to be trying to show in cross-examination that their children were fine and that the state was trying to tear families apart on the mere possibility that the girls might be abused when they reach puberty several years from now.

Only a few of the children are teenage girls. Roughly a third are younger than four and more than two dozen are teenage boys. But about 20 women or more gave birth when they were minors, some as young as 13, authorities say.

The judge controlled the hundreds of lawyers with a steelier hand Friday than she did the day before.

Under cross-examination, Voss conceded there have been no allegations of abuse against babies, prepubescent girls or any boys.

But her agency, Child Protective Services, contends that the teachings of the FLDS - to marry shortly after puberty, have as many children as possible and obey their fathers or their prophet, imprisoned leader Warren Jeffs - amount to abuse.

"This is a population of women who appear to have a problem making a decision on their own," Voss said.

In response, the FLDS women, dressed in long, pioneer-style dresses with their hair swept up in braids, groaned in chorus with their dark-suited lawyers.

Walsh disputed that young girls have no say in who they marry.

"Basically, they're into match-making," he said of the sect, adding that girls who have refused matches have not been expelled.

"I believe the girls are given a real choice. Girls have successfully said, 'No, this is not a good match for me,' and they remained in good standing," he said.

Jeffs is in prison for being an accomplice to rape. He was convicted in Utah last year of forcing a 14-year-old into marrying an older man. W

-With files from The Canadian Press.

[Catty1]

And one more...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/pregnant-teenagers-found-in-raid-on-polygamist-compound/2008/04/09/1207420485585.html


April 10, 2008

HOUSTON: Child welfare investigators who raided a polygamist sect in Texas found many pregnant teenagers and under-age girls who claimed they were forced to marry, according to court documents.

The documents, unsealed on Tuesday, contained details of evidence Texan officials presented to a judge to justify taking temporary state custody of 416 children at the Yearning for Zion ranch, operated by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

They disclosed that in responding to an initial report that a 16-year-old girl had been sexually abused at the ranch, a guarded complex with a limestone temple at its centre, investigators found many young girls who were either pregnant or had given birth.

Click on link to read more

[NicoleLJ]

I have been reading this in the paper and it all sickens me. I am a mormon. Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Not the fundamentialist group that they are talking about here. We do not practice polygamy. but because of these groups many people think we still do or are a part of this group or believe as they do. We do not, I do not.

I personally am glad the children were removed and an investigation is being done. I hope it makes it's way to the Canadian ones here to put a stop to all this. Abuse in any form is wrong.
Nicole

[lizbud]

And what was going on with the cult woman and that UNIBROW.

That was frigging scary to look at.....I'm still skeezed out about it! :eek:


:D :D I noticed that too.......hard NOT to. :D


They act like robots. Wierd. :eek:

[Pam]

Did anyone notice that they have a washed out, 1850's style of the Stepford Wives.


That was my first thought (Stepford Wives) when I saw a couple of the women interviewed. They appeared to be like robots almost. I have mixed emotions about all of this. On the one hand the children need to be removed from any situation where there has been abuse, or even the suspicion of abuse. On the other hand I feel for the mothers. I can't imagine having my children snatched from me. This whole situation requires a balancing act of wisdom and compassion. I hope those in authority are capable of that. :( The whole inter-marrying thing is just amazing to me. It almost reminds me of a puppy mill. :(

[RICHARD]

That was my first thought (Stepford Wives) when I saw a couple of the women interviewed. They appeared to be like robots almost. (


But what about the uni-brow? :eek:

The thing that made me shiver was the way the unibrow woman gave the tour.

"This is the bedroom where XXX sleeps, she's not here...."

Overstating the obvious??? Too scary.

[Catty1]

I think you might want to start a thread about tweezing.

When I was in my early teens, I was close to having a 'unibrow'. I've tweezed the 2 inches between the brows ever since.

Bet that woman just doesn't tweeze...a lot of us women might look more like her than most people know! ;)

[lizbud]

But what about the uni-brow? :eek:

The thing that made me shiver was the way the unibrow woman gave the tour.

"This is the bedroom where XXX sleeps, she's not here...."

Overstating the obvious??? Too scary.


Maybe they don't allow mirrors in the compound. :rolleyes:

One thing that was interesting was their explanation of the big bed in the
temple. They said it was not for sex, but was a bed for people to rest during
their long prayer meetings. Right. :rolleyes:

[shepgirl]

If you've ever been in a Mormon temple you would be amazed at what you saw. And not to mention the the money to build those temples, money that could be used to help poor families. And I hear people criticizing the royals all the time. At least they were from money in the first place.

[K9soul]

If you've ever been in a Mormon temple you would be amazed at what you saw. And not to mention the the money to build those temples, money that could be used to help poor families. And I hear people criticizing the royals all the time. At least they were from money in the first place.

I don't think it's very appropriate to make broad generalizing comments on a whole faith. Why would you assume there are no people of the Mormon faith on this board or people with family who are Mormon?

[wolf_Q]

If you've ever been in a Mormon temple you would be amazed at what you saw. And not to mention the the money to build those temples, money that could be used to help poor families. And I hear people criticizing the royals all the time. At least they were from money in the first place.

The LDS (mormon) church donates a LOT of money towards charities and helping out in times of need; not just to church members either...they were one of the first there with supplies and help for everyone during Hurricane Katrina. The money used to build the temples/churches is all donations from church members.

I'm not sure why this even needs to be in here because, as previously stated in this thread, this is NOT the LDS (mormon) church that these women/children belong to.

[lizbud]

The LDS (mormon) church donates a LOT of money towards charities and helping out in times of need; not just to church members either...they were one of the first there with supplies and help for everyone during Hurricane Katrina. The money used to build the temples/churches is all donations from church members.

I'm not sure why this even needs to be in here because, as previously stated in this thread, this is NOT the LDS (mormon) church that these women/children belong to.


I'm glad you posted Amy. I knew you would understand the sect being
discussed is not the LDS, but the FLDS. A big difference.

[NicoleLJ]

If you've ever been in a Mormon temple you would be amazed at what you saw. And not to mention the the money to build those temples, money that could be used to help poor families. And I hear people criticizing the royals all the time. At least they were from money in the first place.

OUCH is all I can say. Thanks for the insult to my faith which means to me. This thread is not about Mormons it is about the FLDS. THey are not Mormons.

And who by the gave you the right to insult our buildings where we practise our religion? Our buildings(temples, church buildings and so on) are built with member donations. We have a right to our buildings to worship in just as anyone else from any other religion.

And as someone else mentioned our religion(Mormons) donate a ton to charities, help with food banks by donating food that our members make at our churches food warehouses. My comunities rely heavily on the donations from our church. They also support their members in their ward that have very little to no income with the tithes from the members. For example they help with rent, morgage payments, food, bill payments, gas, medical coverage and so on. They even help non members too with this same help. My religion helps a lot of people and a lot of communities. And I am very proud of my faith. Are we perfect? No way. No one is. Is there a faith full of perfect people? Nope. You can't base judgements on a whole religion and all the people on a few.

I am sorry but to me your remarks are nothing but insulting of a whole sect of people. Which to be really shows who has the problem.
Nicole

[RobiLee]

I just want to speak up and say that I didn't like shepgirl's post either. Others have said it better than me so I don't have much else to say. I just don't understand the generalizing of it all.

[Lady's Human]

One comment, and like comments above me it's about Shepgirl's post......

You don't like Amish, mormons, anyone else you don't like?

You say "at least the Royals came from money....."

Where in **** do you think the Royal Family got their money? It wasn't from playing poker.

[shepgirl]

Lady's Human----Please read my post. It says the royals already come from money. The Windsors for example were born wealthy from hundreds of years back. They had money before becoming royals. It's all around us----some are born wealthy, some are born poor, that just the way the world revolves.
And some are lucky and win the lottery, wish it could be me.

Although the post isn't about the Amish, I never said I didn't like the Amish. I said I didn't like the way they treated their animals, big difference.

[Lady's Human]

Amish people are not people I deal with, they get a wide berth from me.

This isn't saying you don't like the way they treat their animals.

Where, praytell, do you think the windsors got their money? Here's a hint, it wasn't from willing donations, unlike churches and temples.

[Vela]

Shepgirl, you are ignorant and your remarks just paint you moreso. Are you a mormon? Have you ever been a mormon? If the answer is no, then you have NEVER been inside a mormon temple. Only those who belong to the church and have blessings and recomends from their bishops are allowed into the temples. You obviously do not belong to the mormon church and therefore do not know anything about what they do or don't do to help others. If you were a mormon you would already know how much they do for those in need. And actually I am not a mormon either but I find your remarks completely ignorant.

As far as the FLDS, there is a lot that people don't know or understand about it, and not everyone who practices polygamy falls under the same umbrella. Some offshoot groups do very strange and odd things, but not all of them who practice it beleive in those things so it's best not to use a broad brush to paint all people the same, even those who beleive some of the same teachings. I think that goes for all religions whether someone is a beleiver of them or not. Child abuse shoudl not be tolerated in any religion, but I also beleive they are going about this the wrong way.

[shepgirl]

Vela---I wasn't going to answer this but to set the record straight I do know about the mormon religion, know the beliefs, know how they pray and have been in a temple. I know exactly how the religion works. If you're wondering how I know let me educate you to the fact that I was a mormon and quit for a very good reason for another religion.

"Child abuse should not be tolerated in any religion"

Child abuse should not be tolerated period, religion or not.

As this is a pet forum, maybe religion and politics belong on a different forum.

[caseysmom]

Shepgirl, Honestly you are pretty new here to be saying how this forum should be run and coming on here insulting whole groups of people.

[Catty1]

shepgirl - this is the post from Karen, the moderator, when the Dog House forum was created. I know you are new, and this spells out why it is here. And yup, religion and politics are mentioned in it, among other things. :)

http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=23125


We have created a new forum for any post that is in some way controversial, upsetting, or just makes us go eeeew! In it are threads about the war, debates and arguments about religion, patriotism and politics, and the recipe for "poop cake."

Those posts have been "sent to The Dog House." If you are easily upset, The Dog House is not a place you want to go.

We do not mean any offense to dogs in naming it "The Dog House."

Pet Talk is designed to be a friendly place for people who know how special pets really are. It's not a suitable place for discussing the nature of war, which religion is "the true religion," or truly controversial subjects.

Many of our members, however, are compelled to discuss these issues. We have created "The Dog House" so that our members may share their thoughts in a friendly, caring considerate manner.

Don't be offended if your post is moved into The Dog House. If you are upset by a particular post in another forum, and think it needs to be sent to The Dog House, you can Private Message or email me or Paul. We know every pet is special, and every member of Pet Talk is special, too. We are just trying to make Pet Talk the friendliest place we can for all our members.

[shepgirl]

Thanks for posting this Catty. I actually think my post might be better in the "DOGHOUSE" part of the forum. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to run the forum as was mentioned but I myself prefer to discuss dogs I was only dicussing the topic because of what happened in Texas and the whole thing was so offensive. I get pretty rattled when kids get abused.

[Karen]

Thanks for posting this Catty. I actually think my post might be better in the "DOGHOUSE" part of the forum. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to run the forum as was mentioned but I myself prefer to discuss dogs I was only dicussing the topic because of what happened in Texas and the whole thing was so offensive. I get pretty rattled when kids get abused.

This whole thread IS in the "Dog House" forum.

[lizbud]

Well, back to the subject of this thread: This is an article about an
upcoming look inside the lives of the women & children.



FLDS polygamy sect gets a closer look - and it's chilling
With their long braids and old-fashioned dresses, the women of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints compound in Texas project an image of clean-scrubbed, prairie wholesomeness.

Given that these women and their children look like they’ve stepped out of etchings from “Little House on the Prairie," you have to wonder, could what went on at the FLDS’ Yearning for Zion compound really have been that bad?

The answer is yes, if several former FLDS women interviewed for a Tuesday documentary on WE are to be believed.


This week’s episode of the WE documentary series “The Secret Lives of Women,” which airs at 9 p.m. Tuesday on the cable channel, examines the world of the breakaway polygamist cult. And this documentary does make the case that the FLDS group is a cult, complete with a prophet who has made doom-laden pronouncements about the necessity of “blood sacrifice” by his followers.

The chaos created by Texas authorities, who recently stepped in and removed hundreds of children from the Yearning for Zion Ranch after an abuse complaint was called in to the state’s child protective services hotline, is unfortunate, but the documentary also makes the case that the children of this secretive, controlling sect especially the young girls, are and were at risk for many different kinds of abuse.

The hourlong film features in-depth interviews with Flora Jessop, who ran away from an FLDS settlement at age 16 and for decades has been an activist helping women and children leave the group. Her relative, Carolyn Jessop, is also interviewed; Carolyn is the author of the current bestseller “Escape,” which tells the story of how she just barely managed to leave a violent, loveless FLDS marriage with her eight children in tow.

This workmanlike documentary is marred by a terribly tinny, cheesy soundtrack and some sloppy, choppy editing (though what I viewed was an rough cut of the episode, so perhaps that’s been remedied). Still, what the Jessop women have to say is fascinating – and frightening.

Flora, Carolyn and others with knowledge of the group say that backbreaking labor is the norm at FLDS compounds (even for children), and physical violence is apparently routine. Carolyn says that her “sister-wives” frequently punished her for her transgressions by beating her children. Her husband, FLDS leader Merril Jessop, made her his fourth wife when she was 18, and throughout her eight pregnancies, she was denounced by other women when she experienced severe nausea and vomiting (this was a sign of her lack of faith, she was told).

Carolyn was blamed as a “sinful mother” when she gave birth to a baby with disabilities (she was encouraged to let the child die). Flora talks about her sister, who was brutally raped and then spirited away to a FLDS compound in Canada. Seven years later, the activist is still trying to find and save her sister.

Perhaps the saddest revelation is that mothers are encouraged to keep their many children at arms’ length – hugging and kissing and other signs of affection are strongly discouraged. No one can show more love for a family member than they can for the FLDS’ self-styled prophet, Warren Jeffs, who was convicted in 2007 of being an accomplice to rape. As for the many “excess” boys that the compound produces, according to this film and other news reports, they are routinely cast out so that a few male leaders can keep absolute control of the FLDS flock, which is permitted almost no contact with the outside world.

All in all, this is one case in which the facts may be even scarier and more dramatic than what’s been conveyed in the mainstream media coverage of the FLDS affair

[NicoleLJ]

Here is an update from an alberta paper:

http://cp.horizon-news.com/lethherald/article_story.php?cpid=925972&ctgry=w

Officials say 31 teen polygamist sect girls in Texas are pregnant or had baby
By: The Canadian Press
at 5:49 on April 29, 2008, EDT.



SAN ANTONIO - Texas child welfare officials say almost 60 per cent of the underage girls taken in a raid on a polygamist compound in west Texas either have children or are pregnant.

Of the 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 who are in state custody, 31 either have given birth or are expecting, said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar.

"It shows you a pretty distinct pattern, that it was pretty pervasive," Azar said Monday after releasing the latest figures.

Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage under state law.

Church officials have denied that any children were abused at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado and say the state's actions are a form of religious persecution.

State officials took custody of all 463 children at the ranch controlled by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, saying a pattern of teen girls forced into underage "spiritual" marriages and sex with much older men created an unsafe environment for the sect's children.

FLDS spokesman Rod Parker said he does not believe the CPS count is accurate. He said that from talking to ranch residents, he believes at least 17 of the girls may actually be adults but have been labelled by child welfare authorities as minors.

Agency officials have called into question claims of adulthood among the girls since the raid and have in some cases disputed documentation provided, saying the girls look younger than 18. Because many FLDS members share similar names and have complicated family relationships, identifying all of the children taken into custody has been a challenge.

"I do have serious questions about how they are determining age in there," said Parker, who is trying to get a better count from FLDS families.

He said the sect is at a disadvantage in proving names and ages because law enforcement confiscated every document that might show family relationships.

The latest information from CPS comes with "absolutely nothing to back it up other than it's coming from them, and they think we should trust them," Parker said.

All the children are supposed to get individual hearings before June 5 to help determine if they'll stay in state custody or if their parents may be able to take steps to regain custody.

Civil liberties groups and lawyers for the children have criticized the state for sweeping all the children, from nursing infants to teen boys, into foster care when only teen girls are alleged to have been sexually abused.

No one has been charged since the raid, which was prompted by a series of calls to a domestic abuse hotline, purportedly from a 16-year-old girl forced into a marriage recognized only by the sect with a man three times her age. That girl has not been found and authorities are investigating whether the call was a hoax.

On Monday, CPS also revised its total count of children in state custody to 463, up one from Friday. Azar said the change resulted from finally getting the children out of temporary housing in the San Angelo Coliseum and into foster facilities around the state where they could get a more accurate count.

Of the 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split - 197 girls and 196 boys - but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range.

Azar said the numbers could still change slightly because authorities have not seen documentation on all the children and have struggled to positively identify everyone.

The sect, which broke from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints more than a century ago, believes polygamy brings glorification in heaven. Its leader, Warren Jeffs, is revered as a prophet. Jeffs was convicted last year in Utah of forcing a 14-year-old girl into marriage with an older cousin.

[NicoleLJ]

This is so sickening and sad. I hope all the children are in serious counsling. And I think the adult women should be too.
Nicole

[TruthRUs]

This is so sickening and sad. I hope all the children are in serious counsling. And I think the adult women should be too.
Nicole

Yes, I agree. ANY kind of abuse to children should NOT be tolerated and the offending parent should be jailed. The children should NOT be returned until counseling for both parents is successful...
Far too many children are neglected/abused in this day and age. You hear stories of kids living in filth, playing second fiddle to other things, it just makes me cringe. Kids should always be number 1! JMHO

[NicoleLJ]

I completely agree TruthRus. But in this case I do not think just the children were being abused. I think the womem were to. Which is why I hope all of them, children and mothers, all go into serious counsling.
Nicole

[TruthRUs]

Heard a story the other day about a father beating his daughter so bad she had to go to the Dr. and then all three kids, one just a baby, were removed from the home. Home was filthy because of all the animals there. So sad. I really feel for the children..
It just never ends in this day and age. :(

[NicoleLJ]

That is awful. Sad when things like that happen. Hope charges agianst the father were laid and the daughter is alright. Abuse is just plain wrong.
Nicole

[RICHARD]

I think you might want to start a thread about tweezing.

When I was in my early teens, I was close to having a 'unibrow'. I've tweezed the 2 inches between the brows ever since.

Bet that woman just doesn't tweeze...a lot of us women might look more like her than most people know! ;)


And what makes you think I know anything about make-up? :confused:

And where are the men in this story? :mad:

[Catty1]

the men will be in court - if they can get any of the present women to speak.

Or the DNA testing! ;)

[NicoleLJ]

I hope if the women get the right counsling that they will talk. But it might not happen. They were raised and brainwashed extensively into this religion. And we might never know the full extent of the abuse many of them have gone through also. To many of them what went on may have seemed normal and ok because that is what they were raised with and brainwashed with. Which is the sad state of it. I just hope a few or more of them with the right kind of treatment and therapy can come forward and give a full account of what went on there so that the men can be charge with the full extent of their crimes.

One of the sad parts though is should the adult women be charged too for being a part of it or allowing it to happen? The thing that will have to be looked at is how brainwashed were they? Did they honestly know deep down that what was going on was wrong? If they didn't and they had no real contact with the outside then what can they be charged with? They were raised to believe such was ok. In fact that if they didn't they were going agianst God or some such thing. How ingrained was this in their minds so that we can fully see who all is at fault?

We could easily say that both parents are at fault because they were both adults and so on. But is that totally true? I am not saying it is or isn't. I personally have not made up my mind yet. But if the women were raised in this enviroment, with no influence to the outsides thinking, then how much fault can you place on them? Honest question. Just something to think about.
Nicole

[lizbud]

In light of the court order releasing the children back to their mothers. A cartoon from a few days ago.:rolleyes:


http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/cartoon/2008-05/39301075.jpg

[Medusa]

We could easily say that both parents are at fault because they were both adults and so on. But is that totally true? I am not saying it is or isn't. I personally have not made up my mind yet. But if the women were raised in this enviroment, with no influence to the outsides thinking, then how much fault can you place on them? Honest question. Just something to think about.
Nicole

Yes, that's right. You and I can look at the situation and say that the mothers are at fault as well but we weren't raised in that environment w/out outside influence. Ya don't know what ya don't know. If, as adults, they joined this organization (I don't know if you can join; I'm just guessing here), then, of course, they're culpable. It's such a convoluted situation and the ones who suffer are the ones who have already suffered enough.

Yesterday I saw on the news photos of Warren Jeffs w/an 11 or 12 year old girl; her exact age hadn't been determined yet. He was kissing her on the mouth like a husband would kiss his wife. How that can be perceived as anything other than abuse is beyond me. It brought tears to my eyes. Jeffs should be worried about his safety in prison, that's for sure.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Yesterday I saw on the news photos of Warren Jeffs w/an 11 or 12 year old girl; her exact age hadn't been determined yet. He was kissing her on the mouth like a husband would kiss his wife. How that can be perceived as anything other than abuse is beyond me. It brought tears to my eyes. Jeffs should be worried about his safety in prison, that's for sure.

I saw that too. Am I wrong or did the girl look pregnant? She looked it to me anyway. :(

[Medusa]

I saw that too. Am I wrong or did the girl look pregnant? She looked it to me anyway. :(

I don't know, I didn't notice. That would be even more tragic.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

It was just that in the pic where he was holding her off her feet, her tummy looked awfully big. I sure hope she's not expecting too. :(

[smokey the elder]

If Jeffs was acting like that to an 11 year old, isn't that statutory rape? I think the big tangle is going to take elaborate DNA testing to unravel, since those people all look like they are closely related. Maybe the state was too ham-fisted going in there, but this is Texas, after all...;) (Apologies to any of our members from that state!)

If the women grew up in the "cult" and never knew any different, then I don't think they should be liable. I wonder if it would be possible to find any of the rejected boys/young men and have them testify about conditions in the compound. It would provide a different perspective, and the males may have been "deprogrammed" to a certain extent.

[Medusa]

I wonder if it would be possible to find any of the rejected boys/young men and have them testify about conditions in the compound. It would provide a different perspective, and the males may have been "deprogrammed" to a certain extent.

Dr. Phil had a couple of the boys on his show and I believe they had been members of this group, although I can't be certain. Their stories were just as chilling.

[sasvermont]

I thought the state of TX was way, way out of line, grabbing all the minors, based on one statement given to them - by an unknown person. What were they thinking?

I agree that there should be some inspection and regulation for the children, but I think that state of TX screwed up, royally. Does anyone here think that foster homes are better than the ranch? Haven't we all heard such horror stories about foster homes?

I hope these folks at the ranch, wake up and allow inspections and regulations.... if that is what is going to be asked of them.

I think our society has much to repair, when it comes to rearing children. Can you accept how some of the ghetto children are treated and reared? At least the ranch folks feed their children.....and are drug free.......Can you think of any more horrible of an upbringing than some of the gang ridden slums not too far from where we live .....and having them going completely ignored?

Don't get me started on rearing children. Don't get me started on the under fed and unloved children in this world. We should all be ashamed of ourselves.....for not yelling louder and sooner and MORE!

[Giselle]

Sasvermont, I respectfully disagree. The YFZ ranch was a grotesque haven of emotional torment and sexual abuse. To say "at least they fed the children" and "kept them drug free" is putting an incorrect euphemism to a hideous, heinous crime. The authorities had been trying to tag them many times before, but how can one do that if the alleged victims are held under psychological lock and key? When authorities arrived, no one would talk and there was no explicit abuse that could be pinpointed (i.e. starvation - which can be photographed and brought to court). Emotional abuse is incredibly difficult to diagnose and exterminate (especially when the victims are essentially hiding from the outside world), but there was a huge red flag pointing to the FLDS long before the phone call. I would assume that the phone call was just the most tangible piece of evidence the authorities could bank on.

The folks running the ranch will not allow regulation and inspection. They despise modern society and our government and would not want "us" intruding on them.

By the way, has anyone seen this? It's a preview of "Damned to Heaven":
http://www.freshfilm.com/damnedtoheaven/

I cried just watching the preview. I've yet to find where I can rent the film, though...One of the quotes haunts me: "If that's what Heaven is, I accept Hell. Gladly."

Edit: Here are the pictures of Jeffs kissing the young girls:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds1.html

[Catty1]

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/19678/polygamy-40 Book "Escape"

I have read this book...thorough and interesting. In the latest edition, the author publishes the FLDS response to the first printing, and writes HIS response to THEIRS. Gives a good historical account of how this splinter group came to be.
http://www.randomhouse.com/features/krakauer/

Lastly, for more links and further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Da y_Saints