Oprah to investigate abuse at puppy mills REAIR May 29

[Moesha]

Winfrey dedicates show to her late dog (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080402/ap_en_tv/people_winfrey)


CHICAGO - Oprah Winfrey plans to dedicate a show investigating abuses at puppy mills to her cocker spaniel, Sophie, who died last month from kidney failure.

"Sophie gave me 13 years of unconditional love. She was a true love in my life," Winfrey says on the broadcast scheduled to air Friday. (Advance remarks from the show were released Tuesday by Harpo Productions.)

The show features special correspondent Lisa Ling investigating puppy mills, which Ling calls "horrific" and "haunting."

Winfrey says the show is "for anybody anywhere who loves a dog, has ever loved a dog, or just cares about their basic right to humane treatment."

While Sophie was not a product of a puppy mill, and Winfrey's three current dogs were adopted from breeders, Winfrey says in the future she would look to adopt from an animal shelter.

"I would never, ever adopt another pet now without going to a shelter to do it. I am a changed woman after seeing this show," she says.

___

On the Net:

http://www.oprah.com

[Powerlounger]

Many years ago, on this site, I caused a huge ruckus with a post asking why would someone go anywhere other than a shelter to get an animal. I never could understand the logic of going to a breeder or a pet store. I was skewered. By so-called animal lovers. But I feel, and very strongly, you want an animal, go to a shelter. Save a life. People don't like to be told that. Let's see how they feel about these puppy mills. Which, no doubt, many on this board have knowingly or unknowingly purchased from. And they will rationalize their purchase with the most imbecilic logic. So, I'm curious to see how they will handle this show.

[caseysmom]

Many years ago, on this site, I caused a huge ruckus with a post asking why would someone go anywhere other than a shelter to get an animal. I never could understand the logic of going to a breeder or a pet store. I was skewered. By so-called animal lovers. But I feel, and very strongly, you want an animal, go to a shelter. Save a life. People don't like to be told that. Let's see how they feel about these puppy mills. Which, no doubt, many on this board have knowingly or unknowingly purchased from. And they will rationalize their purchase with the most imbecilic logic. So, I'm curious to see how they will handle this show.

Thats wierd this is the most pro rescue bunch of folks I have ever seen. I can't imagine this site being pro puppy mill in any way shape or form.

[RobiLee]

Thats wierd this is the most pro rescue bunch of folks I have ever seen. I can't imagine this site being pro puppy mill in any way shape or form.

I was thinking the same thing. I wouldn't think there would be too much of a fuss about that subject unless the person was extremely rude or sarcastic.

[Pam]

Many years ago, on this site, I caused a huge ruckus with a post asking why would someone go anywhere other than a shelter to get an animal. I never could understand the logic of going to a breeder or a pet store. I was skewered. By so-called animal lovers.

I just went through your posts and saw nothing that indicates you were skewered. To the contrary....

Back to the subject, I saw Oprah's promo today and it brought tears to my eyes. I can only imagine the effect that the show is going to have on me. :(

[Twisterdog]

Good for her!

The more press this issue gets, the better.

You know, Oprah has made a few regretable decisions. Is there one of us that has not?? But overall, I think she tries very hard and for the most part, does the right thing. I commend her efforts.

[elizabethann]

When is the show going to air?

[lizbud]

Good for her!

The more press this issue gets, the better.

You know, Oprah has made a few regretable decisions. Is there one of us that has not?? But overall, I think she tries very hard and for the most part, does the right thing. I commend her efforts.


I agree. I didn't know that her Sophie had died. :( She was crazy about that dog. :(

Thanks for the heads up, I'll be sure to watch the show Friday. The awful
truth about puppy mills can't get to much media coverage as far as I'm
concerned. If Oprah is able to shine a light on this horror, more power to
her.

[*LabLoverKEB*]

My mom and I were just watching Oprah, and I saw the preview. I can't wait to see it.... I'll probably cry a lot though. :(

[chocolatepuppy]

I don't watch much tv, but will try to catch this show. Good for Oprah! She will reach so many people. We here on the forum, on the internet, are so aware of what's going on, yet so many have no clue.

[Powerlounger]

I just went through your posts and saw nothing that indicates you were skewered. To the contrary....

The reason you didn't see it was because the powers that be shut that particular thread down. Believe me, it caused a ruckus. I just wanted to know why people would go to a breeder or pet store as opposed to going to a shelter, and that I couldn't understand why. I never got what I thought was a good explanation. I got: 'I don't know what I'll get at a shelter', 'I go to a reputable breeder', 'it's none of your business', 'are you saying a purebred has no value??', that's what I got. It was all quite strange...

[Karen]

I do think that, because Oprah has a huge impact on pop culture, it is a good thing that she is doing the show. Anything that can bring awareness to the public about the evils of puppy mills is a good thing.

[Sparklecoon]

I'm very glad that she is doing something for the ones who can't speak up for themselves.

This is the same woman that bought three pure bred "White" Golden Retriever puppies at the same time :rolleyes: and than wondered why she couldn't train them. I believe one just passed recently as well. I don't have a whole lot of respect for her and I think it's nuts that she has so much pull.

[3muttsandaboston]

She is oprah winfrey she can have a caretaker for each one of her dogs. :rolleyes: I'm glad though she is talking about puppymills. I hope they also tell people about how all petstore puppies come from puppy mills and not to buy a pet store puppy and support them. Oprah has alot of pull with alot of people so hopefully she can help.

[Spiritwind]

The reason you didn't see it was because the powers that be shut that particular thread down. Believe me, it caused a ruckus. I just wanted to know why people would go to a breeder or pet store as opposed to going to a shelter, and that I couldn't understand why. I never got what I thought was a good explanation. I got: 'I don't know what I'll get at a shelter', 'I go to a reputable breeder', 'it's none of your business', 'are you saying a purebred has no value??', that's what I got. It was all quite strange...

I too am glad she is doing this show!!... I'm totally against puppy mills or pet stores and think they should all be shut down... however I wouldn't judge people for wanting to go to a reputable breeder, over a shelter either. I wouldn't buy a dog from a breeder whos parents died at age 3 of cancer, or bloat, or or heart problems..etc..etc..etc... but I don't want one from a rescue/shelter with a background like that either...

I'm all for people going to shelters and rescues for their pets... its great!! I'm glad people do it!... but I am also all for people being able to go to REPUTABLE breeders for their pets as well...

the first few dogs I had when I was younger (when I was a kid) were cute little mutts rescued from shelters.. great dogs!!..... my first dog was a little mutt that looked just exactly like Benji!! smart dog, I showed her in 4-H, starting when I was 9yrs old (I'm 25 now)! she hated every second of it, but she did it for me.... just a little shaggy mutt... though she died young of lymphoma...

[Ginger's Mom]

I just wanted to know why people would go to a breeder or pet store as opposed to going to a shelter, and that I couldn't understand why. I never got what I thought was a good explanation. I got: 'I don't know what I'll get at a shelter', 'I go to a reputable breeder', 'it's none of your business', 'are you saying a purebred has no value??', that's what I got. It was all quite strange...
Although I prefer to get my dogs from a rescue or a shelter, I do believe in supporting GOOD, RESPONSIBLE breeders. If everyone only got mutts and badly bred dogs from shelters, there would be no one taking responsibility for actually making the health, form and function of dogs the their responsibility. Keeping healthy, well-bred, well trained dogs is as important to an animal lover as doing away with backyard breeders and puppy mills. I find it "quite strange" that you think the only dogs that should be owned, adopted, cared for, are those that are bred irresponsibly.

I am not a fan of Oprah Winfrey, however, I do believe she has the power to get the message out there. And I am in favor of anything that will make people more aware of the horrors of puppy mills. I plan on telling as many people as I can about the show. I will have to record it myself.

[Ramble On Rose]

I'm going to DVR the show.
I don't think good breeders should be lumped into the same catagory as puppy mills and pet stores when it comes to telling people where they shouldn't aquire a dog.

[RedMenace]

I find it "quite strange" that you think the only dogs that should be owned, adopted, cared for, are those that are bred irresponsibly.

Geez, I didn't think the poster said that at all. I think it's 'strange' that you said that. He/she was just posing a question. Which I actually find interesting. My personal opinion: if you do go to a breeder, that's fine. But know this. When you do it, you have chosen not to save a life. And that's certainly your choice. Also, are you going to blame the shelter dog for being bred irresponsibly? Do they deserve a death sentence because of it?

[lizbud]

My mom and I were just watching Oprah, and I saw the preview. I can't wait to see it.... I'll probably cry a lot though. :(


Well, I just saw the actual preview this afternoon. :( I so hope many
many people will be "enlightened" by this story.

[Ginger's Mom]

Geez, I didn't think the poster said that at all. I think it's 'strange' that you said that.
Oops, he/she did say that. I will post the quote again.


I just wanted to know why people would go to a breeder or pet store as opposed to going to a shelter, and that I couldn't understand why. I never got what I thought was a good explanation. I got: 'I don't know what I'll get at a shelter', 'I go to a reputable breeder'
Those weren't good enough reasons. I have no idea why they wouldn't be, unless you thought well bred dogs that are reliable in form and temperament isn't a good reason.



Also, are you going to blame the shelter dog for being bred irresponsibly? Do they deserve a death sentence because of it?

Oops again, you must have missed this part of my post

Although I prefer to get my dogs from a rescue or a shelter,
I do not think any dog deserves to die because of the way it was bred.

Welcome to the forum and I hope you look around and come to enjoy the many dogs here. Most of them came from shelters and rescues with some coming from reputable breeders who feel that dogs were developed for specific purposes and we should love them for it. I hope you enjoy reading about them and seeing their acheivements as much as we like sharing them.

[Cinder & Smoke]

When is the Oprah Show on Puppy Mills going to air?

The Puppy Mill show will air for most folks on Friday, April 4th, 2008.

Here's a Station Finder Link for the Oprah Show >>>

http://www.oprah.com/tows/program/tows_prog_whenwhere.jhtml

Click on it, pull down your State, then find a nearby City from the list.

[Jaycee]

Hi everyone, this is my very first post! I just wanted to come into this thread and say that I'm glad some of you have spoken up about people's choice to purchase their dog from a "reputable" breeder - one that has excellent standing, and one who would ask you all the questions and make the decision if they think "you" are the right one for one of their pups. I would never, ever, EVER buy a poor unfortunate soul from a pet store, no matter how sad they look - I know where they come from and I loathe the vermin who put all their stock to work heat after heat to create these little pups :mad:

Regarding the shelters, I have scoured the internet websites from all over Canada for the kind of dog I could offer a home to....unfortunately, they seem to be 85% rotti-X, shepherd-X, pitt-X, etc. I'm not against these dogs...heck, we had a beautiful German Shepherd named Bonnie for 13 wonderful years, but I also know that they are a powerful breed, can be temperamental and shed like crazy! I've also had positive experiences with rottweilers....my brother-in-law had a sweetheart called Palace, but again, she did not like everyone. Pitts (and I don't want to offend anyone) but I just couldn't put myself out there and give one a go - sorry! :)

So I just want to clear my name and say that I do not consider myself irresponsible or "scum of the earth" for buying our future dog from the "best of breeders" - BYB, puppy-mill operators and those who rake in big bucks for creating so called "hybrids" make me sick to my stomach :mad:

[Shelteez2]

Hi everyone, this is my very first post! I just wanted to come into this thread and say that I'm glad some of you have spoken up about people's choice to purchase their dog from a "reputable" breeder - one that has excellent standing, and one who would ask you all the questions and make the decision if they think "you" are the right one for one of their pups. I would never, ever, EVER buy a poor unfortunate soul from a pet store, no matter how sad they look - I know where they come from and I loathe the vermin who put all their stock to work heat after heat to create these little pups :mad:

Regarding the shelters, I have scoured the internet websites from all over Canada for the kind of dog I could offer a home to....unfortunately, they seem to be 85% rotti-X, shepherd-X, pitt-X, etc. I'm not against these dogs...heck, we had a beautiful German Shepherd named Bonnie for 13 wonderful years, but I also know that they are a powerful breed, can be temperamental and shed like crazy! I've also had positive experiences with rottweilers....my brother-in-law had a sweetheart called Palace, but again, she did not like everyone. Pitts (and I don't want to offend anyone) but I just couldn't put myself out there and give one a go - sorry! :)

So I just want to clear my name and say that I do not consider myself irresponsible or "scum of the earth" for buying our future dog from the "best of breeders" - BYB, puppy-mill operators and those who rake in big bucks for creating so called "hybrids" make me sick to my stomach :mad:

I'm not sure where in Alberta you are, but there are regularily small breeds in the spca and animal services here in Calgary. My grandma adopted a little havanese. Previously she has adopted a pomeranian from there as well. I often see pugs in the pound. Many chi mixes and of course the ever popular bichon shih tzu. Now don't get me wrong I have absoloutely nothing against going to a responsible breeder. I don't think you are scum of the earth for doing so (I too would be scum then), but I just wanted to correct your statement that all the dogs in the shelters here are rottiex shepherd mixes. I will give you one thing.... any dog that is black and tan is usually listed as a rottie cross...even when it's quite obvious that there is no rottie in there.

Now back to the original topic. I too agree that Oprah has the power to reach a lot of people. I am worried though that the show is going to take a completely anti breeder twist. Her goldens came from a byb. If she lumps them in with COE breeders then I will be sorely disappointed. Also I hear the president of the HSUS was invited to be on the show. She might as well have invited PETA to be on there. I am waiting until I see the show to make up my mind on it.

[Spiritwind]

Now back to the original topic. I too agree that Oprah has the power to reach a lot of people. I am worried though that the show is going to take a completely anti breeder twist. Her goldens came from a byb. If she lumps them in with COE breeders then I will be sorely disappointed. Also I hear the president of the HSUS was invited to be on the show. She might as well have invited PETA to be on there. I am waiting until I see the show to make up my mind on it.

I agree.. and this is what a lot of reputable breeders are worried about with this show... having all breeders (puppy mill/BYB and Reputable breeders) all being lumped together into one group with the showing going totally anti breeder..

[MoonandBean]

All my life, I've wanted a golden retriever or yellow lab...but other cute mutts kept sneaking into my life and I have yet to have one. The time is finally right for a new dog and while I would love to go buy a purebred golden or yellow, I just can't do it. I have to rescue one. From what I've read, hundreds of puppies are killed every day in the south due to overbreeding and irresponsible pet owners. The pet rescues here in the northeast are loaded with puppies from the south (so many yellows and goldies to choose from) and so that is where I will get my next puppy.

[elizabethann]

Did anybody watch Oprah? It's on right now, but I'm at work. Let me know if you watched it and what you thought of it. I'm going to the Oprah message board right now to see what people are talking about.

[Spiritwind]

I watched the whole show and I thought overall she did a great job of explaining and showing why you should not go to a pet store for your puppy... and how reputable breeders are not the problem... its the puppy mills that are the problem!..

Good show.. thought she did well.... especially suggesting going to a shelter for your pet, but if you decide to go to a breeder make sure you go to a responsible breeder....

[lizbud]

The show just ended here about 1/2 hr ago. I thought it was a very
good show.I'm glad they kept the "touring puppy mills" down to 30 mins,
as a whole hour of seeing this horror would make people sick to their
stomachs. :(

I did like that the Animal Control Shelters & private Shelters were included
in the tour. Showing folks that 30% of all the dogs are pure breed. I also
liked how they showed people the great need to spay & neuter our pets.

It was a great show & it so neat that Oprah shared the film tribute to
her RB Sophie. Gave me LES, big time.

[Powerlounger]

All my life, I've wanted a golden retriever or yellow lab...but other cute mutts kept sneaking into my life and I have yet to have one. The time is finally right for a new dog and while I would love to go buy a purebred golden or yellow, I just can't do it. I have to rescue one. From what I've read, hundreds of puppies are killed every day in the south due to overbreeding and irresponsible pet owners. The pet rescues here in the northeast are loaded with puppies from the south (so many yellows and goldies to choose from) and so that is where I will get my next puppy.

Thank you MoonandBean, that's it in a nutshell. I cannot in good conscience go to even a reputable breeder and get a dog, when that very action will condemn another dog to death.

[Grace]

We watched the show. Thought it was very well done.

Too bad more places around the country aren't like the county we live in. Here, it is illegal to sell pets in a pet store. Can't be done - no way, no how.

Yes, there are cats at the local Pet Smart - cats from the local Humane Society - for adoption.

And it has been this way for many years.

[Pam]

I just finished watching the Oprah show. I taped it because I knew I wouldn't be home. I am still wiping tears off my face. I think the show was well done. I was happy to hear that they also mentioned Breed Specific Rescues. I know that many people watching were probably never aware of that should they not find the specific breed they are looking for at their local shelter. I wish maybe it was made a little more clear about how to contact a breed rescue.

All in all it was an informative show, explaining the need for spaying/neutering and even showing the process of a neutering. The hardest part for me was the segment on euthanasia. I totally lost it as those little souls were labeled with an "e" and then led to the room from which they would never return. Let's all pray that with Oprah's vast audience and influence (she recommends a book and it becomes an instant best seller) that legislation may some day be passed to shut these hell holes down!!! Forever!!! :mad:

[caseysmom]

I sure hope your right Pam, I am a wimp and didn't watch. I think it comes on again in a bit here and I may watch I am not sure the previews were almost too much.

[K9karen]

I had no intentions of watching it after the previews, but I caught some of it since I have no will power. I'm with Pam, the poor, innocent beauties, with "E"s marked on their cards, being led to die, was pathetic. I lost it. I was beside myself (another glass of wine please). And the guy who makes the decision....what can I say?It's on now as a rerun and I shut it off. I won't be able to sleep.

[Emeraldgreen]

We have satellite and I was able to watch it at 10:00p.m. tonight. The whole show was so difficult to watch and I was actually scared to see it.
The last part with the shelter and the euthanasias was heartbreaking. I was absolutely in tears. Those beautiful faces and kind eyes as the men wrapped the leash around their mouths as muzzles before putting them down. I just felt so awful for not doing anything about it all this time that I've been on the planet. I've always rescued all my animals and have always had them spayed and neutered but I am looking forward to dedicating a part of my life to doing more to help the animals. It's hard to know where to begin. I know so many of you on this forum are right in the middle of helping animals like these and I'm so thankful to know that you are out there.
I'm excited because another woman and I are currently in the process of setting up a group where I live to start caring for the feral and abandonded cats. The SPCA has offered to help subsidize some of this care and we've already found some people quite interested in volunteering. The ultimate goal beyond caring for them and trying to rehome some of them is to also set up a spay/neuter program and be able to offer help to other animals in addition to the cats. I'm moving in a few months from this area but I want to help get this off the ground before I leave. And I'm hoping it will give me some more experience to work with something similar where I will be moving.
This show was good. Hard to watch but good.

[Seravieve]

I watched it yesterday when it initially aired. I was glued. I knew I shouldnt be watching it, because seeing shows like that make me want to go adopt more doggies... But we cant.. dang subdivision rules and nosy neighbors. :rolleyes:

I couldnt change the channel. My hand wouldnt do it. Im SOOO glad that Oprah did that show. People need to see these things, they need to know. Think of all the people who had no idea about puppy mills who watch her show. She has such a huge following, its just wonderful.

Parts that really touched me... When they were walking the yellow lab and talking about how it'd never walked on the ground before. You could see it walking all weird because it was so used to walking on the wire cage.

And the whole euthanasia part too.. ugh. Thats when I got MAJOR LES. I had to get up and dry my face off.. shoot. That guy got to choose who lived and who died just based on how they looked in their cages. E for you.. E for you...
And then them showing the guy getting them out for their last walk to the E room. ugh. I couldnt handle that part.

Zeke and Bunny were both on 'E Row' at our local animal control. Both had been returned numerous times. Zeke had been there for a total of 6 months.. their limit. So we were able to save two precious pups from early deaths.. but I just couldnt imagine being that guy, having to chose who gets to die. Ugh. And when he said maybe 4 out of 50 of their dogs get adopted! Thats HORRIBLE. All of those dogs being put down... And they showed the freezer. Oh geez.

And thank you Midwest US... where the most mills are.. Makes me so proud to live in the midwest. Not.

Hopefully it will change people. Makes me want to go to our local Mall Pet Store and chew them out. "99% of all dogs at pet stores are from Puppy Mills."

[Tora Oni]

All my life, I've wanted a golden retriever or yellow lab...but other cute mutts kept sneaking into my life and I have yet to have one. The time is finally right for a new dog and while I would love to go buy a purebred golden or yellow, I just can't do it. I have to rescue one. From what I've read, hundreds of puppies are killed every day in the south due to overbreeding and irresponsible pet owners. The pet rescues here in the northeast are loaded with puppies from the south (so many yellows and goldies to choose from) and so that is where I will get my next puppy.
I know living in louisville I have looked on petfinder and their is a Golden Retriever Rescue called G.R.A.N.D.S. and I read that any dog around 12 or older is free of charge to a good home but they do have background checks and I'm sure they careful about placing an older dog since the person needs to provide medical attention and a peacful enviroment in other words no rowdy two year olds baging on the dog hips and trying to ride him. Which dogs are not ponies or miniture horses. I watched Oprah and I was actually disapointed they didn't mention petfinder.com since they have tons of link of shelters, humane societies, and rescue groups for more than just dogs. I found out about puppy mills back when I was 12 or 13 and after that I never looked at a petstore again without thinking about the animal's background. I just hope this really reaches people across the nation because it hasn't really hasn't been put out their in the news.

[sabies]

I too am glad Oprah did this show. I feel for her loss of Sophie - I've always related to how Oprah spoke of her beloved dog.

Although I was already a shelter supporter, one thing I did learn is that puppy mills are legal. Why? How is that possible? Even if you put aside emotional, moral, and humane issues, what about the financial aspect for tax payers? Would our shelters be overcrowded if puppy mills were shut down? Would someone have to euthanize a perfectly healthy dog if puppy mills were illegal?

[*LabLoverKEB*]

Ughhh! I fricken missed it! I wish I was able to see it! :( From reading the above posts, it sounds like it was a great, but very sad show.

[buttercup132]

Many years ago, on this site, I caused a huge ruckus with a post asking why would someone go anywhere other than a shelter to get an animal. I never could understand the logic of going to a breeder or a pet store. I was skewered. By so-called animal lovers. But I feel, and very strongly, you want an animal, go to a shelter. Save a life. People don't like to be told that. Let's see how they feel about these puppy mills. Which, no doubt, many on this board have knowingly or unknowingly purchased from. And they will rationalize their purchase with the most imbecilic logic. So, I'm curious to see how they will handle this show.
I doubt they were saying go buy a puppy mill dog or pet store dog. Yes alot of people on here are pro rescue but they are also pro good breeding, there's a difference between good and bad breeding. What if you want a certain breed and that almost never ends up in a shelter? What if there are no breed rescues near you? What if they don't adopt out to people who live in apartments,no fence,kids, cats etc ?
When it's a common breed like a lab or something then sure I don't see a point really in not getting one from the pound unless you want a sport dog or show dog.

As for the show I missed it too, I'm hoping to find it on youtube or something.

[Powerlounger]

You know, I really don't care what other people think at this point. These are the facts: Go to a breeder or go to a pet store. That very act sentences another animal to death. Do you people recognize that that IS A FACT?
If you don't like that fact, well isn't that just too bad.

If you saw all those poor innocents being euthanized on Oprah and still want to go to a breeder for a dog, reputable or not, I have nothing to say to you.

Flame away.

[buttercup132]

Well here's what happens when there are no good breeders.
I found this on another forum I'm on but it can be used for any purebred.
Without good breeders there would be no keeping the good lines no keeping up with the breed standard.

Just a Pet by Jenny Peacocke

This is for those of you who think that breeders such as myself are too difficult, too elitist', too hard and expensive to get a puppy from because all you want is JUST A PET!

Why do you turn JUST A PET into a negative? Why do you think that JUST A PET is less than a show dog or [an obedience dog or agility dog] Why do you think that you are settling for second (or third or worse) best?

And those people reading this who have decided that they want a [Crested as] JUST A PET! Why do you want a [Crested]? Because of it's temperament? Because of it's looks? Because of it's energy? It's joy in life? Or one or some of many other wonderful [Crested] traits?

How do you think we keep these things in our breed? Simple! It's by careful, selective, planned breeding to always try and produce the best possible so that any JUST A PET we put in homes can give those characteristics that are so much a [Crested]. It costs a caring breeder just as much to produce JUST A PET as to produce a show or [therapy dog]. They a re usually the same litter and usually could be the same pup!!

I would never breed a litter to simply produce pets for the pet market. This is puppy milling. This is also MUCH cheaper. You do not need to work hard at proving your dogs abilities. You do not need to check on health and temperament. You do not need to match up the BEST stud for the bitch you have. The first male [Crested] you find will do (easier if he lives at your place ... and cheaper).

The fact that I would never breed a litter to simply produce pets for the pet market does not mean that I would not happily sell a whole litter to JUST A PET homes. It does mean that they would be getting the quality [Crested} they deserve as their JUST A PET!

If this is not what you want from your puppy there are plenty of 91breeders' out there who mate (or 91accidentally' allow the mating of) their male ( or their friends male) to their bitch and will happily sell you a puppy. Probably even proudly announce that they are registered with whatever controlling kennel club is in your country..... well so can any purebred dog born of purebred parents be. Doesn't mean a thing about health, quality, temperament, ability, etc.

It is up to you to decide whether your JUST A PET should be considered by you and others as THE BEST' or whether you go out with the idea that y our dog is second best to the competing' ones.

To me JUST A PET is the most special dog there is!

[Powerlounger]

So, if I go to a 'reputable' breeder, will that save the life of an innocent at the pound???

Hmmm. let me think now...hold on, that might be a difficult one. Let's try and wrap our minds around that, shall we??

[Ginger's Mom]

You know, I really don't care what other people think at this point. These are the facts: Go to a breeder or go to a pet store. That very act sentences another animal to death. Do you people recognize that that IS A FACT?
If you don't like that fact, well isn't that just too bad.

If you saw all those poor innocents being euthanized on Oprah and still want to go to a breeder for a dog, reputable or not, I have nothing to say to you.

Flame away.
Whoa, little girl, take a deep breath. People buying dogs from breeders that are interested in the health and development of their favored breeds of dog are NOT responsible for pet over population. Irresponsible pet owners who don't get their dogs altered, backyard breeders, and puppy mills are. Even if everyone on here were to get a dog from a shelter every single year, it wouldn't make a dent compared to the dogs that are being irresponsibly bred, either intentionally or unintentionally. Now, I believe your intentions are good, but telling people who are responsible pet owners that they are killing dogs by buying from a reputable breeder is not going to have the effect you want. You need to change your tactics to get people involved in more active regulation of all animal breeders.

[lizbud]

Whoa, little girl, take a deep breath. People buying dogs from breeders that are interested in the health and development of their favored breeds of dog are NOT responsible for pet over population. Irresponsible pet owners who don't get their dogs altered, backyard breeders, and puppy mills are. Even if everyone on here were to get a dog from a shelter every single year, it wouldn't make a dent compared to the dogs that are being irresponsibly bred, either intentionally or unintentionally. Now, I believe your intentions are good, but telling people who are responsible pet owners that they are killing dogs by buying from a reputable breeder is not going to have the effect you want. You need to change your tactics to get people involved in more active regulation of all animal breeders.


Amen to that. :)

[krazyaboutkatz]

I watched Oprah's show last night and I thought that it was very well done.:)It sure gave me LES though.:( I thought that puppymills had to pass certain inspection codes or they would be put out of business. The one's that I've seen on Animal Planet were always shut down due to their horrible conditions. I sure wish that they'd all become illegal.

Hopefully with Oprah's large following, she'll be able to reach a lot people and change their minds about where they go to adopt their future dogs. I know that in the area where I live, there are no pet stores that sell dogs. There are a few petstores that hold dog rescue adoptions though which is much different. The same goes for cats.

When I was much younger I remember going to the mall and going to the petstore and looking at all of the cute puppies. Little did I know that they came from puppymills.:( I didn't even know what a puppymill was back then. I hope that children can be educated about this so we can hopefully change things for the better.

I was also glad that Oprah said that buying puppies off of the internet is very bad too. My brother and SIL bought their puppy off of the internet.:( Even though the breeder was listed as being local, he flew the puppies in from another state. They adopted a Puggle and she became very sick after just a few days with severe kennel cough.:( My brother tried to talk to the breeder and he didn't even care and he hung up on my brother. He was able to stop payment on the check but they still lost their down payment and had to spend a lot of money on vet bills. Even their vet was horrifed to know that they bought their puppy off of the internet. He said that she most likely came from a puppymill. She recovered and is now doing well. I sure hope that they learned there lesson and that they'll adopt from a shelter or rescue group in the future. The sad thing is that most of their neighbors have also bought their dogs through the internet and even my SIL's sister did this.:(

[Falconara]

From what I can tell I am with Ginger's Mom - the problem I see with it is people going where Powerlounger just did. That's the extreme in the other direction that I just do *not* agree with. Especially considering many responsable breeders are also active in rescue.

~Cate

[3muttsandaboston]

Puppy mill guidelines are horrindous. According to them the dogs on oprah were not mistreated...

What it means to be a blue ribbon kennel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdI2U6dgA8Y

Usda's puppymill guidelines...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4r-FcXAXcE

Also I do not condemn anyone for going to a reputable breeder. I wouldn't go to any breeder for a dog though...I will always go to my local high kill shelter. I feel horribly for all the millions of dogs who are euthanized in shelters and until this problem is solved I think all breeders reputable or not should cut back on their breeding...

[krazyaboutkatz]

Puppy mill guidelines are horrindous. According to them the dogs on oprah were not mistreated...

What it means to be a blue ribbon kennel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdI2U6dgA8Y

Usda's puppymill guidelines...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4r-FcXAXcE

Also I do not condemn anyone for going to a reputable breeder. I wouldn't go to any breeder for a dog though...I will always go to my local high kill shelter. I feel horribly for all the millions of dogs who are euthanized in shelters and until this problem is solved I think all breeders reputable or not should cut back on their breeding...

Thanks for posting these links. I just watched them and it's horrible.:( Now I know why there are so many dogs living in horrible conditions at the puppymills. It's so sad.:(

[Seravieve]

Also I do not condemn anyone for going to a reputable breeder. I wouldn't go to any breeder for a dog though...I will always go to my local high kill shelter. I feel horribly for all the millions of dogs who are euthanized in shelters and until this problem is solved I think all breeders reputable or not should cut back on their breeding...

I feel the same way. I -personally- wouldnt go to a breeder, and I try to steer people to shelters when theyre looking for a new dog.. but I wouldnt look down on someone because they went to a breeder. A reputable breeder anyways.

I too would rather frequent the local shelters. I love my rescue doggies.

[Giselle]

If you are a reputable breeder, it is your duty to help homeless pets of your devoted breed. That's how I see it.

Most of the breeders I consider 'reputable' are very active in breed rescue and regularly foster/rescue. Their heart dogs are often (would you know it?) mutts from the local shelter.

I didn't catch Oprah's show, but did she talk about the ethics of breeding? i.e. backyard breeding ("I think Fido and Fifi should be bred just once for the kids to witness?")

[ParNone]

Always baffles me as to why rescuers and responsible breeders/owners need to be pitted against each other. We’re on the same side. Responsible breeders are trying to better the breeds. They screen potential buyers and require spay/neuter contracts and take back any dog to ensure their dogs don’t end up in rescue. Responsible breeders/owners are not adding to the problem.

I’ve always felt one of the great things about dogs is that they were bred to perform all kinds of different functions. That they can not only be wonderful companions and family, but are capable to work as partners with man in many endeavors, really sets them apart from other animals. That’s why we have seeing eye dogs and police dogs and herding dogs and search and rescue dogs, etc. and my favorite since I have Smooth Collies, Alzheimer Guide Dogs. They’ve tried different breeds but weren’t successful until they tried a Smooth Collie. They needed a breed with a high spatial sense for the most important “Home” command, which was key to the program for when the Alzheimer patient became confused and lost. For whatever reason, that highly desirable trait seems to be apart of the Collie breed. Do we want to stop purebred breeding and lose these types of things?

Rescuing definitely needs to be supported, but we can’t toss aside one of the things that makes dogs special, the different breeds and their functions, by not supporting responsible breeding too. To witness them going extinct would also be very sad indeed.

Par...

[DJFyrewolf36]

IMO breeds of dogs were created to serve a purpose. Responsible breeders make sure that thier lines produce dogs that serve that purpose. If everyone got dogs from a shelter and no one bred, what dogs would be used for hunting, hearding ect. Dogs work, and some are better at some jobs than others.
Adopting from a shelter is a great idea when looking for a companion animal but very rarely can they perform a specialzed job (there are cases where they have though!
And even if you adopt a shelter dog, you aren't saving all of them. Adopting from a shelter takes the same time, concidration and care as picking a breeder. You have to pick a dog that fits your situation. Blindly rescuing a dog could end up with the dog right back in the shelter, and often this is the case when people don't evaluate why they want a dog.
Responsiblity is the issue here, whether it be in breeding or in shelters. Shutting down breeders isn't going to make people any more responsible. Awareness of the issues are.

Edit: I just said basically the same thing you did, par lol.

[Powerlounger]

Whoa, little girl, take a deep breath.

Firstly, I am stating a simple fact. Breeders provide dogs. So do shelters. People want dogs. And they have that choice as to where to go to get a dog. Go to that breeder, a dog in a shelter dies. But some breeder has a fatter wallet. Deal with it.

Yup, taking that deep breath now, big mama.

[Pam]

Firstly, I am stating a simple fact. Breeders provide dogs. So do shelters. People want dogs. And they have that choice as to where to go to get a dog. Go to that breeder, a dog in a shelter dies. But some breeder has a fatter wallet. Deal with it.

Yup, taking that deep breath now, big mama.

You need to go re-read ParNone's remarks and you also need to rein in the attitude.

I am a poodle person. I do not apologize for that. This is a breed that I have owned since 1970. I am also a person who is not happy with what has happened to this breed by mixing it with numerous others and then adding a *poo* on the end. :mad: This is being done intentionally by breeders of *designer dogs* :rolleyes: and irresponsible people who do not neuter or spay and wind up with these mixtures. Whatever the reason, I do not want to see the day come when there will not be GOOD poodle breeders in the world.

Before Ripley all of my dogs came from breeders, some better than others, as I have come to realize. Ripley is my only rescue. He is a poodle for sure (I don't see anything else in him) and I love him just as much as any of my dogs. I was lucky to find him in a shelter but I would not hesitate to go through a breed rescue should I want to add another poodle to my life.

The goal here is a person's freedom to choose or not. Good breeders are not the problem. How can you not see that? :confused:

[Ginger's Mom]

Firstly, I am stating a simple fact. Breeders provide dogs. So do shelters. People want dogs. And they have that choice as to where to go to get a dog. Go to that breeder, a dog in a shelter dies. But some breeder has a fatter wallet. Deal with it.

Yup, taking that deep breath now, big mama.
You should take a deep breath before you "speak" not after. You may find it helps you to think better.

You misunderstand the difference between people who love animals and people who own animals. People who love animals will go to a reputable breeder to obtain an animal that is bred for certain characteristics and abilities. That is not true of most of the dogs found at shelters (if a reputable breeder had bred the dog, he/she would have taken the dog back). They are looking for a dog that can do certain things without causing stress or possible injury to the dog (agility, hunting, frisbee, and many other activities). They get a dog that can perform that function. In addition to that dog, animal lovers may or may not have dogs/animals from the shelter. Whether they do or do not doesn't matter, what does matter is that they are not going to get a dog from a shelter for this particular purpose. So no shelter dog will be saved. Please note that we are at all times talking about reputable breeders, which has a much higher standard than someone who has two purebred dogs that do not have any known health problems. People who own animals are not the ones going to reputable breeders, people who love animals are.

Unfortunately, in your scenario, no one would be spending the time and money to develop dogs whose bodies and organs can actually perform the activities they were bred to do and that we enjoy doing with them. So rather than contributing money to the local animal welfare agencies we are spending money on knee surgeries, or glucosamine, or heart medicines for our poorly bred dogs.

[Powerlounger]

People who love animals will go to a reputable breeder to obtain an animal that is bred for certain characteristics and abilities. That is not true of most of the dogs found at shelters So no shelter dog will be saved.

What kind of convoluted logic is this?? Are you saying this with a straight face?

You can find any characteristic or ability with a shelter dog. You may have to actually put effort into it, but they are there. And people who disqualify shelter dogs on that basis are morons.

Breeding is a business. Breeders are not in it for the breed. They are in it for the MONEY.

People who go to breeders should know they can find just as good a dog at a shelter. They want a purebred, go to a purebred rescue.

ADOPT. NEVER BUY.

As for my 'attitude', Pam, it's great. Gonna keep it.

[Jessika]

I think "some people" need to start acting like adults. There's such a thing as having different or opposing opinions but we should all be able to be mature and respectful. NOBODY learns from being yelled at. People learn from being EDUCATED. Telling someone they're wrong and being rude about it is only going to turn them away! A soft gentle voice is heard much louder than any array of harsh words.

If anyone wants to speculate if this is about you, feel free to PM me, chances are it's not about you lol

[caseysmom]

I think "some people" need to start acting like adults. There's such a thing as having different or opposing opinions but we should all be able to be mature and respectful. NOBODY learns from being yelled at. People learn from being EDUCATED. Telling someone they're wrong and being rude about it is only going to turn them away!

If anyone wants to speculate if this is about you, feel free to PM me, chances are it's not about you lol

Exactly Jessika being rude only turns people away from your ideas powerlounger, most of the folks here on pettalk are not part of the pet over population problem, you are preaching to the choir as they say. I have learned so much here and not by you, I bought Bubba from a byb 3.5 years ago, would I do that again? ...no because of what I have learned here, stop pointing the finger at people here its ridiculous.

[Ginger's Mom]

I am actually very good at saying things with a straight face. Especially when I have seen so many people find that their pound puppies weren't physically fit enough to run and play. Of course they love their dogs and continue to do whatever is necessary to keep them healthy comfortable and safe. They will continue to go the the shelter and support the shelter, but when looking for a dog for a purpose, they will find someone who knows all of the intricacies of proper breeding. Let us hope that dog breeds don't all tangle into a mash of dogs found at shelters with no identifying breed characteristics or health standards.

Personally, I would much rather get rid of all of the puppy mills, backyard breeders, and unaltered pet/multi-breed dogs out there. But, you go ahead and continue your cry against responsible breeding. Maybe you will get your wish one day, and all of the reputable breeds will cease to exist. I, personally, would be shocked if that put an end (or even made a significant dent in) the need for animal shelters, and yes even euthanasia. But please do go on and continue to enjoy that "attitude" of yours. It seems to be working well.

[Alysser]

What kind of convoluted logic is this?? Are you saying this with a straight face?

You can find any characteristic or ability with a shelter dog. You may have to actually put effort into it, but they are there. And people who disqualify shelter dogs on that basis are morons.

Breeding is a business. Breeders are not in it for the breed. They are in it for the MONEY.

People who go to breeders should know they can find just as good a dog at a shelter. They want a purebred, go to a purebred rescue.

ADOPT. NEVER BUY.

As for my 'attitude', Pam, it's great. Gonna keep it.

Actually, your attitude isn't "great", so maybe you should try being a little nicer.

So everyone who gets a dog from a reputable breeder is a horrible person? Is that what you are trying to say? Everyone who pays top dollar for a well bred, healthy dog is a moron? First of all without breeders(reputable), we wouldn't even have dog breeds, so your logic confuses me, greatly.

Adopting from a shelter is fine but so is getting an animal from a reputable breeder. People who breed dogs responsibly barely make enough money to support themselves then they use all the money to properly breed more dogs. It can't be a very good business unless you are breeding dogs poorly.

By the way, I got my maltese from a breeder, a good one and I am not sorry for it. As for future pets, if I want a certain breed I will go to a good breeder but I will always consider adoption and donate to my local shelter.

[3muttsandaboston]

I am actually very good at saying things with a straight face. Especially when I have seen so many people find that their pound puppies weren't physically fit enough to run and play. Of course they love their dogs and continue to do whatever is necessary to keep them healthy comfortable and safe. They will continue to go the the shelter and support the shelter, but when looking for a dog for a purpose, they will find someone who knows all of the intricacies of proper breeding. Let us hope that dog breeds don't all tangle into a mash of dogs found at shelters with no identifying breed characteristics or health standards.

Personally, I would much rather get rid of all of the puppy mills, backyard breeders, and unaltered pet/multi-breed dogs out there. But, you go ahead and continue your cry against responsible breeding. Maybe you will get your wish one day, and all of the reputable breeds will cease to exist. I, personally, would be shocked if that put an end (or even made a significant dent in) the need for animal shelters, and yes even euthanasia. But please do go on and continue to enjoy that "attitude" of yours. It seems to be working well.

Not trying to be rude or anything but are you saying that all shelter dogs are unhealthy? It sounds as though you are trying to stop people from adopting from a shelter... My two aren't they are very healthy and I'm proud of them. I wouldn't trade them for any purebred and I will never ever go to a breeder just because in my heart I know if I do a shelter dog dies. My dog Lucy is very energetic and healthy she runs beside my bike. She is definatly Physically fit enough to run and play.

[Ginger's Mom]

It sounds as though you are trying to stop people from adopting from a shelter...

No I am not. You quoted the whole post but didn't read the whole post. As I said in the post they continue to support and work with the animal shelter. As I have said in earlier posts both of my girls are rescues, and my next dog will be also. But as I have also said repeatedly, until most people are sick of hearing me say it in this thread, is that if you are going to get a dog for a purpose, it is nice to have breeders that are actually doing their homework, spending their money and taking their time to make sure that the dog is fit to perform the work it will be doing. Yes, I know there are no guarantees in life, but it sure is nice that someone cares enough about dogs to make sure they are healthy and fit enough not to suffer due to insufficient skeletal structure, bad knees or hips, degenerative eye problems, or whatever, because of it. Rescue dogs make wonderful pets. Many have done very well in agility, flyball, obedience, etc. Many have suffered from knee problems, hip problems, heart problems, and cataracts. To tell people that there is never a good reason to contribute to and help perpetuate the breeding of healthy dogs by reputable breeders is not stance of someone who truly cares about dogs.

[Tollers-n-Dobes]

I watched parts of the show and thought it was pretty well done. I was worried it was going to be 100% anti-breeder, but it wasn't... which was great. I hope it affects/educates some people - it'd be great if people would stop buying from pet stores.

Powerlounger, it is quite obvious to me that you don't know any reputable breeders. Any reputable breeder I know has lost money in breeding, or broke even in the end. They are most certainly NOT breeding to make money. They're trying to improve their breed. Lots of breeders I know also rescue. I don't feel guilty in the slightest for getting Dance from a breeder (though I do wish I had waited and got a toller from a bit of a better breeder, but evenso, I didn't support a mill/BYB when I got her). I don't feel guilty at all for getting Keira from a breeder either. I personally wouldn't be happy if all there was in the dog world were poorly bred mixed breeds everywhere and no purebreds. I'm not a purebred snob (in fact, my best dog was a mix), but I feel that having purebreds in society is very important.

As far as your "adopt, never buy" statement, I haven't had much luck with adopted dogs. Winston's excellent temperament wise, but his hips and such aren't very good. The other dogs we've adopted have all had horrible temperaments, and the dogs I got from BYBs/accidental litters (before I knew better) died before 5. Dogs in shelters and rescues are always from BYBs/mills/accidental litters. Reputable breeders are not the cause. That's not to say I'm against getting dogs from rescues or shelters, as I'm not at all. And I know that not all dogs from rescues/shelters are unhealthy or have poor temperaments. I know a lot of wonderful shelter dogs and often try and convince people to go to the local shelters around here to try and find a dog. I'll probably have more adopted dogs in my life, but I will also have responsibly bred dogs because I want to know that my dog will have a sound temperament and hopefully be in good health for a long time. That, and I can't imagine not having tollers in my life and very, very rarely will you find one in a shelter. Even breed rescue only gets in a handful of tollers every year.

Anyhow, I probably didn't have to type all of that out as I basically agree 100% with everything Ginger's Mom has said already and she said it better than I did.

[Spiritwind]

Breeding is a business. Breeders are not in it for the breed. They are in it for the MONEY.




Since you are not a breeder, so how can you say why responsible/reputable breeders breed dogs???

Yes, I have breed litters... of quality, happy and healthy Rough and Smooth Collies. I don't breed often, I've had this breed for just over 13yrs now, and I have to be honest this is the breed I love and this is the breed I want to have!! I currently own 6 Collies (2 smooths and 4 roughs) After having Collies for so long, I just don't think other breeds or mixes could compete... with the way I feel about my Collies!...

Yes, I've gotten dogs from shelters before, I've had a couple "mutts" that were great dogs, but responsible breeders are were I choose to go.. because I show my dogs.... not only are my dogs, show dogs, or dogs I do herding with on occasion or other performace activities, they are my pets and my babies!!.... I do not have them to make money off them!.. they are house dogs, they have 17 wooded acres to run on, they are rarely in a "kennel" environment... (unless I am going to be gone a day or two and have a friend coming to take care of them for me)..

Its been almost 2yrs since my last litter, but I am planning a rough and smooth breeding this year. IF responsible breeders make money on their dogs, then I must not be doing it like they do, because I have never made one cent off my dogs!.. All my dogs have their eyes CERF checked, hearts, thyroid.. etc..etc...etc. They are shown in conformation, I also do herding, agility, obedience etc..etc.. to prove my dogs quality for breeding. This is not cheap! It costs a lot of money to do this... Just showing in conformation alone is usually a couple thousand just to finish one dog... IF you are lucky! It can be much more... between entries and traveling costs and handlers costs if you send your dogs out with handlers...

On top of that.. caring for and properly raising a litter of puppies is expensive.. in just food alone a litter of 5 Collie pups can go thru 40lbs+ of food a week... plus all puppies have to have their eyes checked by a certified opthomologist between 5-8wks of age.... vet checks, vax, deworming... some breeders test all puppies for the MDR1 (ivermectin sensitivity) gene prior to placing in new homes, which is $60 per puppy.. or IF Grey Collie Syndrome is common in the family they will check puppies to make sure they are not carriers for that before placing, which is over $100-130 per puppy......

I have helped place "rescue" Collies in loving homes, which costs me money most of the time, for food, deworming etc...

I agree with ParNone... I own and show purebred Collies because of what they were bred to do and their abilities.. they are smart, they are versitle and able to complete so many different tasks... that is why some people choose to go to reputable breeders.... because they want a dog with certain characteristics...

[Emeraldgreen]

Everyone has some good points on this thread and it's obvious that everyone on both sides of this love dogs. I totally understand that if a person wants a particular breed for a breed specific activity that they would acquire a dog from a reputable breeder. As well, a person who just wants to save a dog and have a companion can and should go to a shelter. And for those who want to do both there is this option:

Breed Rescue Groups (http://www.akc.org/breeds/rescue.cfm)

I'm sure most everyone on this forum knows all about these groups and it's nothing new but I thought I'd throw it out there.

In posting this, I completely understand that the breed rescue organizations that provide these dogs would not in most cases be able to provide any paperwork or guarantee in any way that could prove that the dog being adopted has good lineage or health so it would not be the suitable choice for someone who is looking for those qualifications.
But it is one more option for people out there who are somewhere in the middle, wanting to rescue but also wanting a specific breed but not necessarily for breed specific activities and are comfortable with the lack of guarantee and background of the dog.

And, hopefully with people adopting from shelters, adopting from breed specific rescues and purchasing dogs from good breeders we can all work to give dogs good homes and keep breeds that people know and love going strong.
Spaying and neutering is the best solution to these over populated shelters! :)

[Danegirl2208]

Breeding is a business. Breeders are not in it for the breed. They are in it for the MONEY.

.

Are you a breeder? Have you even met a responsible breeder? I am guessing not.

Responsible breeders do NOT breed for money..they are breeding for the betterment of their chosen breed. Infact most breeders do not make a dime off of their breedings, they are lucky to break even. It takes a lot of hard work and money to breed!

Responsible breeders are not the reason there are so many animals in rescues nation wide...backyard breeders sure are though! A responsible breeders dogs never end up in a shelter...why? Because most have a written contract that says that if for whatever reason the dog can not be kept they MUST be returned to them.

the fact is, we need breeders. Why? Simply put, to preserve and improve breeds.

It is ignorent to say that every breeder is out for money, or doesn't care about rescue dogs. Infact, most responsible breeders support rescue and try to help them out any way they can.

please educate yourself before making such bold and inaccurate statements:
http://www.jlhweb.net/Boxermap/reputablebreeder.html
http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_breedersandpetshops.php
http://www.dogdazedesigns.com/breeding.htm

[buttercup132]

Also I do not condemn anyone for going to a reputable breeder. I wouldn't go to any breeder for a dog though...I will always go to my local high kill shelter. I feel horribly for all the millions of dogs who are euthanized in shelters and until this problem is solved I think all breeders reputable or not should cut back on their breeding... Reputable breeders barley breed as it is. Maybe 1-2 litters a year if that. That's why they have such long waiting list.


IMO breeds of dogs were created to serve a purpose. Responsible breeders make sure that thier lines produce dogs that serve that purpose. If everyone got dogs from a shelter and no one bred, what dogs would be used for hunting, hearding ect. Dogs work, and some are better at some jobs than others.
I agree, and if you say you can get a lab or collie from the pound sure but most likley they aren't going to have great breeding lines so they won't have the same hunting or herding instincts as dog bred from working lines.


Firstly, I am stating a simple fact. Breeders provide dogs. So do shelters. People want dogs. And they have that choice as to where to go to get a dog. Go to that breeder, a dog in a shelter dies. But some breeder has a fatter wallet. Deal with it.
That is wrong though. Some people don't want the same dogs, some people want working dogs, some people want show dogs. Reputable breeders don't have a fatter wallet they don't make money off of their puppies if anything they loose money. BYB make the money off their puppies.
I'm pretty sure I have also heard numerous times of shelters that milk people for money.


You may have to actually put effort into it, but they are there. And you think there is no effort and searching endlessly picking through the ton of byb to find the good one. You think it takes no effort to research this breeder ask other breeders about them takes no effort?


They want a purebred, go to a purebred rescue.
Like I said before, what if they don't adopt out of state/country?
What if you dont have a rescue near you?
What if they dont adopt out to people in apartment,with kids,cats etc?

Ummm can someone say PETA wanna be?

[Moesha]

Ummm can someone say PETA wanna be?

That wasn't really necessary was it? You made your points tactfully. Why add comments to fuel controversy?

[lizbud]

Usda's puppymill guidelines...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4r-FcXAXcE


I feel horribly for all the millions of dogs who are euthanized in shelters and until this problem is solved I think all breeders reputable or not should cut back on their breeding...


I wish more people would become knowledgeable about the USDA.
How the puppy mills are allowed to barely meet minumum requirements
and continue to do" business as usual". The USDA requirements are deeply
flawed & we need to change & update these Federal Laws.

I think the AKC has a moral obligation to speak up for all dogs & lobby
for improved animal regulation. The Breeders who support & promote the
group should want to improve the treatment of animals.

[K9soul]

The logic used in the argument that for every puppy/dog bought, one is killing another, has always amazed me in how far it reaches and is based on assumptions. First it assumes that if the person did not go to a breeder, they would have gone and saved a life from the shelter, which is not necessarily true. Some would rather have a dog whose background they know and who has been bred specifically to a purpose to fit their lifestyle best, and would forgo getting a dog at all if they could not pursue that course.

You could really make reaching assumptions and accusations like that all day long about a great many things, i.e., because I adopted my dogs when they were cute puppies and highly adoptable, I condemned older, less wanted dogs to die. You could even carry it further and further.

Anyone who decides they don't wish to own a dog at all is killing a dog in a shelter.

Anyone who decides they prefer cats or other pet types are killing a dog in a shelter.

Anyone who only rescues one dog when they have the financial ability to take more is killing a dog.

If one goes to a breed rescue or no kill shelter, they are killing a dog in a high kill shelter.

The crux of the problem is not who adopts what and where, but irresponsible breedings: Those who dump litter after litter of unwanted dogs simply because they don't care to spay/neuter their dog. Puppy mills that "farm" dogs for pet shops with no care at all to their conditions, temperament, and proper care, they pour hundreds and thousands of dogs into picture, many with a myriad of health and temperament problems that land them in shelters and often on the euthanasia table. It is those people responsible for all the lives lost and dogs languishing in shelters. It is to them you could truthfully say "you are responsible for the suffering and deaths of dogs in shelters."

[lizbud]

I found a GMA "The Problem With Puppy Mills" on ABC website. It's covers
the same tour by Lisa Ling.

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=4598865

[DJFyrewolf36]

Just another point, I know of a very good Doberman breeder who donates every penny they make after the vet checks on their dogs to the local shelter and they donate quite a bit to breed rescues and shelters. They don't make a living on breeding, if anything they lose money because they never charge for adopting out a dog as a companion if they test positive for any medical problems. They also do an interview and a home inspection of each canidate for adoption. My dad got a companion doberman from this breeder and not only did the breeder pay for his neuter and initial vet check up he covered any recuring costs for the dogs medical issues. This breeder does this for every dog. Im sure they aren't the only breeder that goes through this much for the well being of their dogs, at least I hope not ;).
To me, that doesn't sound like a person who is just in it for the money.

[3muttsandaboston]

No I am not. You quoted the whole post but didn't read the whole post. As I said in the post they continue to support and work with the animal shelter. As I have said in earlier posts both of my girls are rescues, and my next dog will be also. But as I have also said repeatedly, until most people are sick of hearing me say it in this thread, is that if you are going to get a dog for a purpose, it is nice to have breeders that are actually doing their homework, spending their money and taking their time to make sure that the dog is fit to perform the work it will be doing. Yes, I know there are no guarantees in life, but it sure is nice that someone cares enough about dogs to make sure they are healthy and fit enough not to suffer due to insufficient skeletal structure, bad knees or hips, degenerative eye problems, or whatever, because of it. Rescue dogs make wonderful pets. Many have done very well in agility, flyball, obedience, etc. Many have suffered from knee problems, hip problems, heart problems, and cataracts. To tell people that there is never a good reason to contribute to and help perpetuate the breeding of healthy dogs by reputable breeders is not stance of someone who truly cares about dogs.

I did read your post and to say that most shelter dogs are too weak to run and play is crazy. The woman who I board my dogs with/trainer has all rescue shelter dogs and these dogs all do flyball, agility, and frisbee and many of them are still doing it in their teens. Shelter dogs if you actually look at them and meet them can make perfect pets for anyone whether you want a service dog or a working dog. This is just my opinion though and of course I do not care at all if people go to a breeder as long as it's a good breeder. My little dachshund that lives with my grandmother for now came from a show breeder and was given to her because he had a parrot mouth.

Any dog can have health problems. Bulldogs can't even reproduce or give birth without help for heavens sake. Dachshunds have back problems and most shar peis have to have eyelid surgery to correct their eyelids. People need to ease up on breeding working dogs. Honestly I think we need to start breeding more for companion dogs and less for working dogs. 99% want a companion dog but some mistakenly get a border collie or some other working breed and it ends up recking their house. Yes there are rare occasions where someone needs a herding dog because they have a flock of sheep. This isn't all directed at you ginger's mom this is mostly just contributing to the whole thread.

Back to the subject of puppy mills. They are horrible and need to be stopped. Kennel clubs need to stop providing papers for these puppies.

[krazyaboutkatz]

In case any one missed Oprah's show on puppy mills here's a link so you can read more about it, see pictures, and watch a few videos Puppy Mill Story On Oprah (http://www2.oprah.com/index.jhtml). Just click on Lisa Ling On Puppy Mills.

[Ginger's Mom]

I did read your post and to say that most shelter dogs are too weak to run and play is crazy.
You didn't read my post, you looked at it and assumed that it said something it didn't. I said that many people find that their shelter dogs are not physically fit enough to run and play. In just this last week I have spoken with three friends about this very issue. One had to have her dog's back operated on for disc problems two months ago, another is taking her dog to a heart specialist for diagnosis and treatment this week, and the third is taking her dog in have his knees and hips operated on this week. The last dog is assumed to have been a product of a puppy mill or some such facility where he was kept in a cage all of the time. All of them are good dogs and worthy of their homes, but not dogs that can perform "jobs." They are good pets, if you only want a pet, by all means go to a shelter. If you are looking for a dog that can perform a "job" there is nothing wrong with going to a reputable breeder to get a dog that has been bred for that purpose.


Honestly I think we need to start breeding more for companion dogs and less for working dogs.
I honestly don't know what this means. I really do not think you were suggesting that we needed to start breeding more for companion dogs and less for working dogs when there are so many suitable companion dogs at shelters. I am sure you must have had something else in mind rather than suggesting that breed standards should be changed or that new breeds should be developed for a situation (companionship) that there are already too many dogs vying for.

Just a hint, if you don't want me to think something is directed at me, don't start your post by quoting me. It's bound to get my attention.

[3muttsandaboston]

Wow i'm sorry. I really don't mean to offend. I will stop posting in this thread because it is a topic that really really gets to me. Yes i Did Mean we need to tone down the working dogs but not change the breed standard. I will end by saying I love dogs all dogs and hate when they are mistreated. I also wish this thread hadn't veered off the topic of puppymills.

[Jaycee]

Firstly, I am stating a simple fact. Breeders provide dogs. So do shelters. People want dogs. And they have that choice as to where to go to get a dog. Go to that breeder, a dog in a shelter dies. But some breeder has a fatter wallet. Deal with it.

Yup, taking that deep breath now, big mama.
Listen Powerlounger......
I've just come from a whole weekend at the Red Deer Annual Spring Dog Show where I have spent so much time talking with dedicated and highly "reputable" breeders of 3 possible breeds that I have in mind (#1 is the Boston Terrier, #2 the Boxer and #3 the Hungarian Vizsla). Each and every one of them all say they do not profit much from breeding their dogs. They all said they would take their pup back in a heartbeat if things didn't work out in their new home, and that to me, assures me they care only about the pup rather than the money. None of these breeders allow their pups to be released to their prospective owners until at least 10 weeks old - unlike BYB/puppy mills who ship them off to pet stores at 5 weeks. You need to seriously listen to what the majority of people on this thread are telling you - you cannot tar those who choose to buy a purebred with the same brush as those who buy their dogs from ads in papers or over the internet as they are the irresponsible ones. They are the ones who turn a blind eye to what the mama dog has to go through time after time. I would adopt from a shelter and I do check the animal shelter websites, but I would probably adopt from a Boston/Boxer Rescue shelter as they are "my preferred" breed of dog.

[Twisterdog]

Wow, this degraded in an ugly way.

For what it's worth, here is my opinion:

Puppy mills - indeed, the scum of the earth. There is a special place in hell, I hope, for these "people" who torture and neglect animals solely to make money.

BYB's - some of them are in the exact same league as a puppy mill, only on a smaller scale. They are simply breeding one or two dogs to death, instead of a thousand. There's room in the inner circle of hell for them, too. Some people who want Fluffy to have babies aren't necesarily evil, just ignorant and misinformed. However, they should NOT be breeding. And the only way to stop them from breeding is if everyone stops buying from them.

Reputable breeders - obviously doing a good and responsible job at what they do. SOMEone has to continue making purebred dogs. These are the ONLY folks who should be doing it.

Shelters/rescues - IMO, the far-and-away best choice for 99% of the dog owning population.

In a perfect world, there would be no such thing as puppy mills, BYBs, shelters or rescues. Everyone who wanted a dog would pre-order one from the reputable breeder of his/her choice, and there would exactly the right number of dogs for homes in the world. But, obviously, we are a LONG way from that. So, to start us down the road to that place, we all must NEVER buy from a puppy mill, pet store or BYB and we must ALWAYS adopt whenever possible.

My personal opinion on adopting a rescue/shelter dog vs. buying from a reputable breeder: Neither is a "bad" choice. However ... if you love goldens or bulldogs or schnauzers, great! I happen to love several purebreds, too. But why not adopt one from a shelter or breed rescue as opposed to buying one from a breeder? Unless you are planning on showing or breeding ... why do you have to have a dog from a breeder with papers? I've never understood this.

I currently have four purebred dogs, two with papers. I didn't get any of them from breeders. They were all rescues. I'm not going to breed or show them, so why would I not adopt/rescue one and save its life? In the years I have been rescuing dogs, I have had easily over a hundred purebred dogs who came into my home as rescues and found forever homes. I have worked with thousands more at shelters. And, with the popularity of the internet, petfinder.com and other sites, it is SO easy to find exactly the breed you are looking for in a matter of minutes.

There is NO health guarantee on ANY dog. I bought my boyfriend (now my husband) a purebred English bulldog for his birthday when we were dating. Not something I would have done for myself, but it was important to him. I did a LOT of research on breeders and the breed. I found the best breeder I could find. He was without a doubt a very reputable breeder, who did every possible health, genetic and soundness check on his dogs. Sadly, it didn't matter - Rosie died before her second birthday. I could have very likely found an EBD on petfinder.com that would have lived to be ten years old. To imply that every dog from a reputable breeders is healthy, and every dog from a shelter has issues is simply ridiculous.

[3muttsandaboston]

Wow, this degraded in an ugly way.

For what it's worth, here is my opinion:

Puppy mills - indeed, the scum of the earth. There is a special place in hell, I hope, for these "people" who torture and neglect animals solely to make money.

BYB's - some of them are in the exact same league as a puppy mill, only on a smaller scale. They are simply breeding one or two dogs to death, instead of a thousand. There's room in the inner circle of hell for them, too. Some people who want Fluffy to have babies aren't necesarily evil, just ignorant and misinformed. However, they should NOT be breeding. And the only way to stop them from breeding is if everyone stops buying from them.

Reputable breeders - obviously doing a good and responsible job at what they do. SOMEone has to continue making purebred dogs. These are the ONLY folks who should be doing it.

Shelters/rescues - IMO, the far-and-away best choice for 99% of the dog owning population.

In a perfect world, there would be no such thing as puppy mills, BYBs, shelters or rescues. Everyone who wanted a dog would pre-order one from the reputable breeder of his/her choice, and there would exactly the right number of dogs for homes in the world. But, obviously, we are a LONG way from that. So, to start us down the road to that place, we all must NEVER buy from a puppy mill, pet store or BYB and we must ALWAYS adopt whenever possible.

My personal opinion on adopting a rescue/shelter dog vs. buying from a reputable breeder: Neither is a "bad" choice. However ... if you love goldens or bulldogs or schnauzers, great! I happen to love several purebreds, too. But why not adopt one from a shelter or breed rescue as opposed to buying one from a breeder? Unless you are planning on showing or breeding ... why do you have to have a dog from a breeder with papers? I've never understood this.

I currently have four purebred dogs, two with papers. I didn't get any of them from breeders. They were all rescues. I'm not going to breed or show them, so why would I not adopt/rescue one and save its life? In the years I have been rescuing dogs, I have had easily over a hundred purebred dogs who came into my home as rescues and found forever homes. I have worked with thousands more at shelters. And, with the popularity of the internet, petfinder.com and other sites, it is SO easy to find exactly the breed you are looking for in a matter of minutes.

There is NO health guarantee on ANY dog. I bought my boyfriend (now my husband) a purebred English bulldog for his birthday when we were dating. Not something I would have done for myself, but it was important to him. I did a LOT of research on breeders and the breed. I found the best breeder I could find. He was without a doubt a very reputable breeder, who did every possible health, genetic and soundness check on his dogs. Sadly, it didn't matter - Rosie died before her second birthday. I could have very likely found an EBD on petfinder.com that would have lived to be ten years old. To imply that every dog from a reputable breeders is healthy, and every dog from a shelter has issues is simply ridiculous.

I agree with you 100% on everything you said! :D I love going to a pound or rescue and meeting dogs of all different shapes and sizes to find the perfect dog for me! My pound has a room or outdoor area you can take them to and play with them and meet them as much as you want.

[Giselle]

I do want to say, however, that there IS a very valid reason for a non-breeder to want a purebred.

If one plans to compete in certain events, such as lure coursing or agility, there are certain venues which only allow purebreds. I'm referring mainly to AKC, here. In my area, we are very lucky in that we have a few fairly active non-AKC venues. However, those non-AKC trials are few and far in between compared to AKC trials, which can be found (literally) within minutes away several times a month. AKC definitely dominates in certain sports and my next dog would surely be a rescued purebred (at least, until something drastic happens with any of the organizations).

[clara4457]

I personally, have no issues with reputable breeders. Someone earlier stated (forgot who) that reputable breeders do genetic testing, don't overbreed, vaccinate, etc. - which is true. One problem is that the average person has no idea where or how to look for a reputable breeder

My issue with breeding is more along the lines of "show dogs". It seems that the breed standards that are winning at dog shows promote health issues. Breeding pugs to make their noses shorter (which causes breathing problems), breeding larger and larger GSDs with the slung back hips, breeding Poms with smaller legs, all contribute to that breeds genetic health issues.

I wish the breed standards were more about health and temperament and less about "looks" IMHO. While reputable breeders really do try to prevent health problems in their lines, I do feel that the breed standards promote the health issues that are prevalent in certain breeds. If breed standards changed in a way that were more about health (e.g. longer noses in some breeds, slightly larger toy breeds, slightly smaller giant breeds) then I would feel more comfortable with breeding in general.

BTW - there have been numerous studies about health issues in shelter/rescue dogs versus private breeder dogs - it is about the same.

I think that as far as the USDA is concerned, the primary focus is the protection of people from animal borne illnesses (e.g. mad cow, salmonella, etc). As long as the puppymills can prove that they do not have any illnesses that can be transmitted to humans, they are doing what is legally required. Remember that dogs and cats are considered livestock, so these breeding facilities only have to conform to those rules and regulations. If you have ever seen a egg farm, you would never eat eggs again - the way these chickens are housed is even more horrific than puppymills. Also, it is a business that puts money into the economy - that is all that our state and federal governments really care about.

These are just my opinions and I do not mean to offend anyone who does breed and show animals.

[Moesha]

The show is going to be reaired tomorrow with an update about changes that viewers made happen.

[Jessika]

The show is going to be reaired tomorrow with an update about changes that viewers made happen.

Thanks for the update :) I'll be sure to TiVO it!

[Sevaede]

Just a question... Are you considered less reputable if you choose NOT to vaccinate? I just ask 'cause I believe there are a few folks on this board who do titers instead of having their puppers inoculated every year. :):confused:

[Casper]

The show is going to be reaired tomorrow with an update about changes that viewers made happen.

Splendid! I missed it the first time around and was hoping to have another chance to see it.

[Jessika]

Just a question... Are you considered less reputable if you choose NOT to vaccinate? I just ask 'cause I believe there are a few folks on this board who do titers instead of having their puppers inoculated every year. :):confused:

You know, on a personal level I don't see a problem with it because at least they're being brought to the vet and being examined, etc, and they're obviously having blood work done. As a breeder though, I can see how it may be a different story. I suppose so long as it isn't like, a ten litter a year operation type of breeder, maybe one or two litters a year, something small, maybe that would still be reputable. Well... I'm not sure, I'll have to do some more thinking on it, but bottom line they're getting checked out by a vet and how can that be a bad thing?

[Spiritwind]

You know, on a personal level I don't see a problem with it because at least they're being brought to the vet and being examined, etc, and they're obviously having blood work done. As a breeder though, I can see how it may be a different story. I suppose so long as it isn't like, a ten litter a year operation type of breeder, maybe one or two litters a year, something small, maybe that would still be reputable. Well... I'm not sure, I'll have to do some more thinking on it, but bottom line they're getting checked out by a vet and how can that be a bad thing?

I have no problem with people who do titers instead of vaccinations... I'm not really following how the 10 litters a year comes into play??... not that I think anyone should have 10 litters a year, but I'm not following how that has anything to do with titers vs. vaccinations.. maybe its because I am currently fighting off the Flu and so I'm really tired and completely exhausted...

..... I do breed, but don't even average 1 litter a year.... I have a long awaited litter due in a couple weeks...

Obviously all pups get vet exams/checked out by a vet, and all of mine have their eyes certificated by a optho between 5-7 wks... etc..etc..etc... but I do my own vaccinations on the pups...

[lizbud]

bump...... Repeat of this show is today.

[elizabethann]

Damn, I'm going to miss it again!

[sasvermont]

According to the reports today, as stated by Oprah, the governor of PA, Rendell, has proposed legislation to regulate the commerical breeders, including the Amish folks reported in this story.

I watched the entire show today. These folks have total disregard for the dogs. It is a business.

I surely hope the people in Lancaster County PA put more pressure on the breeders. I know Ohio has had their issues with breeders too. Again, I can only assume since Ohio is Amish territory too, that the Amish are involved.

By the way, I happen to like most Amish.

It was a tear jerking show to watch. I wish more people would see it.