(sister in-law)Making the decision to euthanize for aggression.

[pitc9]

This IS long... but it's a VERY serious situation that's happening right now and I need PT feedback please!!!

My brother in law and his wife have his & her dogs. Murphy a 10 year old Springer came with her and Sage is my brother in laws 4 year old GSD. Murphy was purchased from a breeder by my SIL for no other reason other than he was a medium sized dog.
Murphy was never crate trained, is food, toy and garbage/ anything and everything in or near his mouth aggressive. He has bitten my SIL on the lip when she took a sock away from him, resulting in 14 stitches. (She was lying on the bed with him and she was trying to make a game of it to try to get the sock away from him) He has bitten me (didn’t break skin) when I was at the house and grabbed him collar to keep him from escaping the yard. He has bitten and snapped at (no broken skin) my brother in law quite a few times for various reasons. He has had a full panel done at the vet twice and nothing was found. They had a trained/behaviorist out and have tried to keep up with the advise that she gave them, but I think it was too much like work for both of them so they stopped working with him. The only thing they followed through with was my sil taking him to work with her every day, that was until she had a baby last August. Anything that they did to help him change his bad behaviors went down the drain. They were back to square one with him AND had a baby. Since going back to work after the baby, he’s gone back to work with her. He doesn’t mind it, loves the extra attention that the workers give him most importantly, he gets the one on one time he used to have with her when she first got him. But then, last week his latest victim was my sil’s boss’s 10 year old son.
Murphy had stolen a tissue out of the garbage, the boy knew all about Murphy’s problems so instead of reaching for it, he told Murphy to drop it. Murphy did, then when the boy reached down to pick it up Murphy bit his knee, leaving bruising and swelling. My sil and Murphy went back to the vet and her vet told her to put him down. He’s too unpredictable; he’d rather deal with a dog that is like that all the time rather than a dog like Murphy. So she contacted me and I told her I’m not going to give up without trying everything, I gave her a list of rescues to contact and she did. All e-mailed or called her back and told her they would not take him and they all told her it would be best to have him put to sleep.
She spoke with an English Springer Rescue America, Inc. (ESRA). “She told me that there is nothing I can do but to humanely euthanize Murphy. I got Murphy from a breeder in Salem, Ohio, Debbie Beard. Judy said that Murphy is genetically aggressive and he can't be corrected. Judy had nothing nice to say about Debbie and said that Debbie should be shot for all of the hurt she has caused families and dogs. She has list dating back to 1992 about dogs who were put down from this breeder. I didn't know this at the time, but Murphy did come from a puppy mill. He was born on a farm and lived in a chicken coop with several puppies and grown dogs. Debbie gave him a bath before we left and I thought she was doing this because it was muddy and rainy outside. I know believe that this woman is nothing but a low life and doesn't care about the dogs she breeds or who she sells them to.”
Yet another HUGE blow against Murph….
Then she e-mailed me yesterday:

“I wanted to let you know that I might have some good news about Murphy. Yesterday my boss came to me and said that he couldn't let me put Murphy down and wanted me to hear him out with an idea he has. He suggested putting Murphy in a pen out in our shop at night and on the weekends. He is even going to make him a pen for outside in the summer. We have a "cage area" where we keep our tool box, cleaning supplies, mops, etc...Our shop is heated and fairly clean. I am going to make him a little home in there, bring in a radio and some toys for him. Even though someone is here on Saturdays, Joe and I will come on the weekend to let him out and feed him. Of course I will work with him so he is acclimated to his new surroundings. I am hoping that this will work. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't try all possibilities. My mom said that she would even take him some weekends to her house. Keep your fingers crossed.”
Someone her mom knows has a farm and they said he could come live there where he would live on a outside 24/7, I’ve since talked her out of that.

I need opinions please.
Do you think Murphy would be better off being PTS or living at her place of work?

[Freedom]

What a difficult situation! I will pray for Murphy and everyone involved.

[Sirrahsim]

I am not all qualified to answer this difficult situation but I hope that they are able to make a decision that suits eveyone including Murphy.

[WELOVESPUPPIES]

Sad...I feel for you and your family, especially the ones having to make this hard decision. I kind of agree that maybe putting him down would be the best option, what if (God forbid) the next bit is to their childs face, or anyones face (granite you said he already bit his owner). I don't think I could trust this particular dog around anyone, I would be in constant worry that he might bite. Sometimes there really is nothing that can be done, we all know that, maybe, unfortunately for Murphy, this is one of those cases. My parents had a dog that started having seizures, but you could not see them, no physicial shaking just a stare and he would go after anyone near him. Our vet told my parent's the very same thing, it is easier dealing with a dog that is like this 24/7 than one that will just snap and bite someone at any given time. I don't think the keeping him at work and seperating him for everyone will benefit the dog, what kind of life would that be. I would think if his aggression is associated with less time with his "mom" then it would only get worse if he was seperated even more from her. I don't know....hard decision. I too will pray for your SIL and BIL to make the best decision for Murphy.

[cloverfdx]

Sadly i think the best thing would be PTS, it is just not worth the risk of another bite & by rehoming him could your sister live with the guilt if he did some serious damage if there is a next time :(.

I dont agree with rehoming dogs that bite, not when so many stable healthy dogs die every day :(.

[Catty1]

Would it worth trying something like a 'doggie tranquilizer'?

Also - has anyone reported this 'breeder'? Or are there no laws in your state?

It would be great if they - even with all the trouble - could get the news about this breeder into the local newspaper, media, etc. That can wipe someone out of business faster than any weak law!

Prayers for Murphy and your SIL and good luck!

[elizabethann]

When the behaviorist was called in and the family started working with Murphy, was it actually working? Was Murphy's behavior getting better?

You said the family eventually gave up on it because it was too much work and then they had a baby and everything kind of went down hill from there.

If the family were to adopt him out to the boss and he was to stay at his place of work, would a behaviorist be called back in? If everybody at this place of work was in agreement to all try to work with Murphy and they brought a behaviorist in, I don't see why Murphy couldn't stay at work. It would be a great experience for the workers - a bonding of sorts. But it sounds like he might be alone for long periods of time. Am I correct in saying that? If that's the case, I don't think that would help his behavior.

This sounds like a case for the Dog Whisperer.

It's a shame they would have to put him to sleep. Springer Spaniel's make good hunting dogs. Maybe a hunter would want to adopt him if it is spelled out that he has aggression issues and needs serious training.

I don't know. This is so sad. At the same time you don't want Murphy seriously injuring a human or a dog or cat.

Good luck.

[cyber-sibes]

Angie, call Nancy E. & talk to her about him. She may be able to give you some invaluable insight into what's going on in Murphy's head. She's really amazing, and it's certainly worth a try since so much is in question here. Call or pm me if you need her number. Paws crossed for Murphy.

[pitc9]

Pat- I gave my SIL Nancy's info and I've asked her twice to contact her. I don't know if she will.

elizabethann-At the time they told me yes, the things they were doing were working. But now she tells me that she doesn't really think they were.
If he were to stay at her place of work, she would still own him, she wouldn't be giving him to her boss. Yes, he would be alone from the time the shop closes around 4 or 5 till the next morning during the week and on weekends no on is there. She said she would be checking in on him on Saturday and Sunday. I don't think that would help his behavior either. Personally, I think it would make him worse.

Catty - Her vet said no to a tranquilizer because he's already so unpredictable and they may make him worse. The breeder is a low life back yard breeder and couldn't give a crap less what happenes to the dog.

Thank you all for your comments, I just got off the phone with her and she's going to move him into the shop soon. I told her that him being alone so much may make him worse, she said she's aware of that, but feels like she needs to try this for Murhpy's sake.

[Karen]

If, when he's at The Shop, he still gets plenty of exercise, that's the only way this could work. Springers are active, energetic dogs, and a bored Springer is going to be even more of a problem.

This is so sad, poor thing. I hope it works.

[Pam]

It sounds like a *no win situation* no matter which way she turns. I agree that less time around people may make him worse but I also see the point in them wanting to try every possible solution. This is a decision that is going to be painful no matter what the outcome. :(

[Ginger's Mom]

Angie, I am attaching an article on Springer Rage (http://www.essfta.org/Health_Research/aggression.htm). I know, I know that term isn't used any more, and it isn't accurate, but that is how I found the article. It is rather lengthy, and I will admit to not reading it thoroughly. But near the end I believe it does go into different situations where euthanasia may be necessary. Not a decision I would want to make either way. Good thoughts and wishes going out.

[ChrisH]

Reading about Murphy gave me chills, my Bob is nearly 10 years old and has always been 'his things' (including crate) aggressive, and can get nasty about holding on to his collar too. Has he ever bitten me or anyone in that regard? No. Because I know where the danger lies and so avoid it.

For example if I really need him to give up an item that may be dangerous to him (or valuable to me) I use some sort of distraction, perhaps hiding something he really wants behind a closed door. At this he usually drops the thing he's been holding on to and by the time he's found what's hidden I've retrieved the item, which he has already forgotten about anyway. And when playing with something, a ball maybe, and he drops it for me I always send him back a ways before picking it up.

But of course none of that is of any use to your sil. Knowing and living with similar dog I totally agree that Murphy would be a danger to a child. But I disagree that his aggression is unpredictable and he should be put to sleep. I am totally surprised at the rescues contacted in giving up on him. In my opinion, with training, in a new home with no children and a knowledgeable owner Murphy could be fine.
I only wish there was a rescue organisation equivalent to our Dogs Trust in your country, they evaluate and if a dog like Murphy cannot be re-homed they will spend the rest of their lives happily in their care. (I sponsor one such dog)

[lizbud]

It's a shame that training wasn't continued with Murphy.Training a 10 yr
old dog does not happen overnight.If he is good health & his problem can
be solved by living as a shop dog, it might work out.

[clara4457]

I only wish there was a rescue organisation equivalent to our Dogs Trust in your country, they evaluate and if a dog like Murphy cannot be re-homed they will spend the rest of their lives happily in their care. (I sponsor one such dog)

Actually, there is Best Friends Animal Society in Utah - they have many sanctuary animals that may live out their lives in their care if they can't find the right homes for them. Unfortunately, we have a lot more special needs animals than places for them.

I have to tell you that life in a cage doesn't sound very appealing to me. This dog will go from being a family pet in a house to living in a dog kennel. Almost any animal behaviorist will tell you that that is a lonely existence for a dog and causes many behavioral issues. There is the issue of "quality of life" that needs to be considered. I guarantee you that dogs that live outside or in kennels are easily forgotten (out of sight ... out of mind). They are going to have to make a serious commitment to continuing to either work with or rehome the dog and use the work kennel as a short term solution. Otherwise, they should do the right thing and take him to the vet, hold him, tell him they love him, and then quietly let him go.

JMHO

[pitc9]

Thank you all for your opinions and the link to the Springer Rage link!!!

Clara - He will only be in the pen at night and when no one is there. He goes to work with her everday now (and has for almost a year now) and stays in her office with her as he would once he's "moved" there full time. Her boss is offering to make him an outdoor pen only for potty and play. He will not be in a pen 24/7. But it still isn't going to be good for him to be alone everynight and most of the weekends. :( She's just trying everything so she doesn't feel like she didn't try. I'm sure it won't be long after he's moved in before she starts seeing that living there is not the answer.

ChrisH - You sound like the person that we've been looking for to take him! Someone that would know and would be willing to handle him with kid goves! I'll ship Murphy to you right away!!! He's great with other dogs and he loves to play! :p