Mandatory Spay Neuter Gone Wild!

[SemaviLady]

This is the story about Spartacus (http://www.cobankopegi.com/blog/2007/07/mandatory-spay-neuter-gone-wild.html) in NY. :eek:

[mugsy]

I think the dog should be neutered. But, that's my opinion. We don't need anymore unwanted pups around and if he lets the dog loose on his property, who knows what will happen. I do think the city went a too far, but, he should use common sense and neuter the dog.

[Lady's Human]

There's nothing in the article saying that he's a breeder, or that he shows the dog. If the dog is just a pet, neuter him. It's not "sexually mutilating" the animal, it's being responsible.

[CathyBogart]

Obscene! His truck was broken into, he wasn't just letting the dog roam...and he's to be punished for it why? It's not my business if he wants his dog to keep his dangly bits. He doesn't live in the city with mandatory neuter, he shouldn't have to comply. It's ridiculous.

[Catty1]

Kinda makes me wonder how secure he is with his OWN manhood....

[caseysmom]

With the mentality that spaying/neutering is sexually mutalating how do we expect to fight the battle of unwanted animals...its just unbelievable.

[SemaviLady]

Found this update (http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk1NSZmZ2Jl bDdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5NzE2MjUxNSZ5cmlyeTdmNzE3Zjd2cWVlRU V5eTI=) , with not much more detail but includes a better photo.
Does look like a Cane Corso (Italian Mastiff). Ears were not cropped.
Most other articles just called the dog a 'mastiff'.
http://www.cobankopegi.com/b/spartacusJuly.jpg

George says, "I believe that he comes to the world one way, he leaves the same way,".

Being that the dog doesn't have the ear crop, which some owners will opt to have done after they get these dogs when the breeder doesn't do it (breeders typically do the tail crop, like rotties and boxers are routinely done), this adds another element of interest regarding his passion for his dog and greater weight to his words.

This link might not last long (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:WGg17XJ0QRwJ:classifieds.myspace.co m/index.cfm%3Ffuseaction%3Dclassifieds.viewAd%26clas sifiedID%3D4087559%26catID%3D6%26subCatID%3D94%26M ytoken%3D2219FB01-A299-4D5D-BA3341D5D8498DF8594+when+to+crop+cane+corso&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=firefox-a) but is typical of those who want 'the look' and want to have it done by a professional. Which is not a bad thing - Some folks with pit bulls sometimes have tried to do it at home, with scissors or knives. :mad:

May 25, 2007 9:30 PM
Subject: WANTED!! Cane Corso ear Cropping BY AN EXPERINCED VET.

I am in need of a vet who knows how to properly crop an Italian Cane Corso Mastiff's ears. If available please email me photos of your work along with price. I need two pups done. Pups are located in Fort Worth, TX.
Thanks

Cane Corsos
https://breederinfocenter.com/images2/20060921211854_214321_4.jpg
https://breederinfocenter.com/images2/20060921211854_220626_2.jpg

[Catty1]

My eye was caught by the picture behind the man hugging his dog - a fierce 'look-alike' in the picture(Kirk Douglas, I know), along with macho-tough fighting images.

I go back to thinking that, aside from spay-neuter being right or wrong in this case, he thinks neutering his dog would emasculate him, somehow.

I mean...he didn't choose a miniature poodle for a pet, did he?

[CathyBogart]

He drove SIX HOURS EVERY DAY to visit his dog.....that doesn't sound like someone who is just out to make a few bucks from puppies

[SemaviLady]

My eye was caught by the picture behind the man hugging his dog - a fierce 'look-alike' in the picture(Kirk Douglas, I know), along with macho-tough fighting images.

I go back to thinking that, aside from spay-neuter being right or wrong in this case, he thinks neutering his dog would emasculate him, somehow.

I mean...he didn't choose a miniature poodle for a pet, did he?The picture and the pose certainly are staged, but given the thousands he had to pay so far -- how many bondsman will bail out a DOG? He had to post $10,000 in CASH because he unable to find a bondsman that would consider bailing out a DOG. :D :p

As to having miniature poodles working on farms, that just doesn't happen. :) So I think you meant that just as a "it's a male thing" suggestion and I think that sometimes too - of the various populations with which I sometimes have to deal.

Toy poodles were developed to be companions and don't really have the build or instincts move cattle or sheep nor protect livestock. They sometimes end up as coyote food, or some variation of that in rural and some semi-suburban areas. Coyotes and mountain lions have been seen walking down the roads in some suburban neighborhoods.

Some of the farms with working dogs that I know about have had cats and small dogs carried off by eagles or coyotes, cougars and the like. Dogs such as Anatolians, Maremma, Ovcharkas and Great Pyrenees on such farms can also protect the small fry of the farm by barking, charging at and deterring the predators. Cane Corso are drovers and a more athletic and natural looking dog than their cousins the Neopolitan Mastiff. I think the latter ones were more for rich folk with estates but Italian dogs are not my specialty. :p

http://www.cobankopegi.com/my/pt/Mtn-lion-composite.jpg
One of the Anatolians I placed, works on a farm protecting miniature horses. A couple years ago, the owner noted that the dog had begun barking a lot late in the evening and they could not get her to shut up. Turns out she was keeping this mountain lion away from her horses.

They had Fish and Game come out to find the lion. It apparently had decided it liked easy pickings and was systematically killing dogs, cats, goats and other critters in the vicinity. The horses remained safe because the cat wasn't willing to face off a dog this size when easier pickings were next door. Neighbors who did not have farm guardians were losing their pets and livestock to the cat.

It was decided that rather than capture the cat and move to another area, which would be like moving an established child molester to another neighborhood to start an acclimated habit again, Fish & Game opted to track and shoot the cat.

http://www.cobankopegi.com/k/nadide01.jpg
The hero Anatolian with her mini horses here -- a few years later after her family moved to another farm.

[Catty1]

So I think you meant that just as a "it's a male thing" suggestion and I think that sometimes too Yep!

Though if he wants a protector dog...doesn't neutering actually increase the dog's aggression (not sure if I remember the graphs correctly)?

[CathyBogart]

A protection dog should NOT show aggressive tendencies though!! Any dog that is going to be trained for protection should have the most stable temperament possible. I know a few people who do protection work and one person who trains protection dogs, and he won't touch a dog that has a history of aggression, period.

[SemaviLady]

Though if he wants a protector dog...doesn't neutering actually increase the dog's aggression (not sure if I remember the graphs correctly)?Not quite, but it's fascinating stuff! Many of us are involved with problem solving with issues between owners and dogs. A good part of which prevents rescue situations (as resolution of conflict, outcome happier owner and dog) and also in evaluation of dogs that turn up for rescue.

Aggression can be categorized into various types that have correlation to various populations. One of Dr Serpell's studies (1996) divided types of aggression into these profiles on the chart below and these are typical of the aggression profiles used in these studies.
http://www.cobankopegi.com/b/serpell-study-neutered-aggression-qs.jpg
These are the different kinds of aggression that were evaluated in the ECS study.

Dr Serpell was doing studies on canine behavior using the English Cocker Spaniel and as part of study design, one of the questions always asked of owners was if the pet was neutered. He asked about the dog's color and registration among other things. They didn't expect some of the things that the study revealed. Neutered pets are supposed to be easier to care for after all. But as they charted their data, they discovered some surprising behavioral patterns. Among those was the fact that neutered females in that study were significantly more aggressive to children. (A5 on the chart)

Skip this part if you don't have an interest in canine genetics! It might be hard to follow, apologies for that. We've probably heard about the little cockers that take a bite (they are at face level to kids). This was one study which as a side effect, documented a correlation of risk to children at that time. There were behavior patterns having to do with the color of the dog and the popularity of that color or variation. The red color in the ECS is recessive, a phaeomelanin based. If you understand recessives, you know that by choosing recessive elements in a breed, you remove dogs of dominant expression phenotypes and begin to 'fix' the recessives and the types of behavior and health traits in the popular animals of that phenotype. Reddish/yellowish cockers in the ECS were very popular and parti colors or black and liver dogs were not favored. (this does not mean that the color itself fixes behavior, but by selecting WINNING dogs that had the color being favored in the showring, there was a tendency to select for those elements. Among those who study some genetics, this is called "Popular Sire" syndrome. It created a trending toward bloodlines that had temperament issues may have inadvertently been selected for. As a side bar, HYPP in Quarter Horses gained wide manifestation due to this through the sire known as Impressive. Elements of this are reasons why AB 1634 is dangerous to dogs and people. The effect (http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm) of selecting for show winners has had massive effect on different breeds. Show champions may be great dogs but narrowing the genepool arbitrarily is foolhardy. Many breeding programs are now developing lines to fix the problems that developed in decades past.


Okay, moving on... study on animal behavior, genetics including color issues related to this is really keen stuff to follow as it relates to general considerations for those of us doing rescue (all breeds). And very importantly it helps in problem solving when working with a frustrated owner, to help them to keep the animal from being relinquished. Prevention is a wonderful thing! :D

Who does these studies? People trying to bash neutering? That would definitely be conflict of interest and create reason to be skeptical! But it isn't biased that way at all. "The Alliance for Contraception in Cats and Dog". (site: http://www.acc-d.org/) is an organization which advocates neutering and is behind arranging these symposiums. Here is a bit from their Animal Welfare page-
Imagine the increased impact we could have on the homeless pet population with the ability to permanently sterilize a cat or dog with a simple injection. Imagine what we could accomplish with the money and time saved by a simpler method of pet sterilization. Imagine trapping, neutering and releasing feral cats and street dogs without ever driving to a clinic or worrying about finding a recovery site.

ACC&D was founded to make this dream a reality. For decades we’ve been hearing that a non-surgical sterilant for cats and dogs (continue (http://www.acc-d.org/AnimalWelfare) ....)

Anyway, charts. All the charts pictured here are from Dr Serpell's work. Notice the N values. Most animals in the studies compiled were neuters.
http://www.cobankopegi.com/b/msn01.jpg
They found that OWNER directed aggression was higher in neuters.
Neutered dogs were also more likely to fight with other dogs.

http://www.cobankopegi.com/b/msn02.jpg
Neuters are more reactive. (seem more likely to be stressed or exciteable) More liable to be sensitive to loud noises and activity.

Many owners now have to deal with sedating their dogs during storms and fireworks. This problem seems to be increasing.

Is there a solution?
What if animals were more acclimated to typical stresses before being neutered, would they be less reactive? Does increased maturity before neutering confer character less behavior associat with stress? For example, leg lifting in male neuters seems to be better established if they are neutered later. Of course, there are genetic components involved in the unstable fear of loud noises. In the past, dogs were raised with more exposure to such noises (eg hunting, guns). Nowadays, dogs can be bred for generations and not be tested against the ability to accept such noises as normal.

Puppies have several fear periods while they are growing. Does neutering during fear periods have any correlations?

http://www.cobankopegi.com/b/msn04.jpg
Another type of reactiveness charted above. Licking and grooming, maybe more in the way of creating granulomas on the skin.

As to too much barking, it appears that there is just a slight lead with neuters.


Many PET male dogs are neuters now. YAY! That's not a bad thing when owners are not prepared to control their dogs.

However, many of these male pups are not given the opportunity to learn to lift their leg before they are neutered and frequently they never learn to lift their leg. This is not a major thing, for most, but you can see it on many forums that neutered boys with this behavior are quite common and dog folk are sometimes embarrassed about it (yep, that macho thing crops up!). Many who prefer neutered boys who do lift a leg, now give them a chance to mature a little and have had better success on that.

A reason for wanting the dog to lift his leg, that has nothing to do with macho, is that some people prefer the dog squirt on an object rather than squat in the yard and make yellow spots in the grass. Now GREEN LAWN issues are a different sort of obsession. :) Just read somewhere on PT that a senior citizen in Utah had a brown lawn. So apparently this is an issue that can be legislated. Maybe an excuse for leaving a male dog entire longer. LOL! :p :D

[SemaviLady]

A protection dog should NOT show aggressive tendencies though!! Any dog that is going to be trained for protection should have the most stable temperament possible. I know a few people who do protection work and one person who trains protection dogs, and he won't touch a dog that has a history of aggression, period.As noted above, there are different kinds of aggression.

In canine behavior, dogs that have all their sex hormones will have more stable predictable social canine behaviors. They do tend to behave in a more settled manner. They are less likely to develop unreasonable fears and over the top reactive or problem behaviors. (we are talking about unaltered dogs in experienced hands, not the everyday joe and those are pit bull fighters and other such)

One of the reasons that police dogs are not neutered, is because this stable nature benefits the working relationship. The behavioral element is called "working ethic" by some. The brain isn't stuck in a 'in between' lala land like many neuters, especially early neuters that retain puppy like demeanor.

The service dog organizations also did studies in their trainee pups and found better success with dogs that were left entire longer before neutering, but this was also because of health advantages such as less propensity to endocrine problems and orthopedic issues such as ACL.