Banned from grad for senior prank

[sparks19]

Ok I wish I could find the story but so far have been unsuccessful.

They were talking about it on a talk radio station today.

Here is the just of it:

A boy was suspended from school for the last week or so and banned from attending his high school grad ceremony for gluing a couple cafeteria trays together as a senior prank.

during a meeting with the mother, the son and the "superintendant" the boy and the superintendant were yelling at each other and the boy said "this is F***** bullsh*t"
the boy is not allowed on school property and cannot attend his highschool grad.

IMO, this is a little much. YES he should be punished for a stupid prank. suspend him.... make him wash trays in the cafeteria... whatever. but banning him from his graduation for a silly prank? that seems a bit much to me.

and furthermore if I were that mother in that meeting I would first address my child and tell him that under NO circumstance is he to EVER use that kind of language or speak to his elders in that tone and that if he wishes to resolve the situation he better smarten up. After that I would tell the superintendant the same thing..... he is an ADULT. there is NO need to yell and raise his voice and talk down to a student..... He cannot expect a teen to keep his voice under control when he as an adult cannot do the same. it would not be tolerated by either of them IMO.

but it just seems that this kid is being denied a life changing moment and life long memory for something so stupid and petty. I mean, there are kids out there that harass, abuse, and basically torture other students and yet NOTHING is done about it. This kid pulls a stupid prank and he is banned from school property and his grad?

Now I certainly believe this boy should face a consequence for his lack of good judgement but by no means should his punishment be THIS.

[K9soul]

I'd need to know more details before I formed an opinion. I.e. What was being "yelled" by the superintendent, things can really be reported in a slanted way at times. What is the kid's history, was this a last straw type of situation for a kid who had been pushing his luck for too long now. How were the parents dealing with it and so on. It's just too vague for me to really state an opinion one way or another.

[Lady's Human]

If I spoke like that to my boss at work I would be out on a suspension. If he doesn't learn cause and effect now, he never will. Somehow I doubt this is the kid's only issue.

[mike001]

I would need more info also, but if the boy can use foul language like that it means he uses it all the time so he probably deserved what he got. I have to lean on the side that it was probably the last straw.

[catnapper]

was it a local story or something national?

[Alysser]

I would like a full story on this too..

But if those are all the details, then I agree with you 100%, Sparks19. I think the punishment should have been much less extreme. I've seen shows where the seniors do much worse pranks like putting a car in the school, and they don't get half the punishment this kid got. Maybe the bad language was just the last straw that broke the camel's back? I am unsure of this but, it is still too extreme for such a silly thing. I would have given the kid 2 dententions, one for the prank and one for the language. Then, I'd make him was the trays, but not being able to attend graduation?? I think that's wrong, highschool graduations are a very memorable thing to miss.

[Laura's Babies]

For some reason, I doubt he was stopped from going to the graduation for the tray incident, it was the language he used in that meeting. Two wrongs do not make a right and if he'd kept his mouth shut, they could/would have had a case against that principle for his behavior. The kind of language he used is not acceptable anywhere, anytime and it does have consequences and he knew it. If it is all as you reported, I think the principle did the right thing.... But I would also add, as his mother, if a principle started yelling at my chikd, I would have took my child and walked out of that meeting.

The whole 21 years I worked at school, the senior prank was to toilet paper the english teachers house... it was a school tradition.... wonder if that is still going on?

[sparks19]

it was local .... I wish I could remember the name of the school district. but it is close to here.

According to the discussion.... the boy had never had issues at school. He was never suspended and had never had trouble with the teachers. The mother had never received any complaints from the school about her sons behaviour. so she claimed.

Also, the superintendant was reportedly berating and belitting the boy in the meeting and yelling back at the boy. I would NOT tolerate my child talking that way .... but on the other hand this person is in a position of authority and is an adult.... if he cannot show self control during a meeting with the parent and child then he has no business being in that sort of position. does that excuse the boys language? no it does not.

The meeting was set up by the mother BECAUSE the school called and told her that her son could not attend graduation for the tray incident.... this was before the language and the yelling in the meeting. so yes he was banned for the prank.

shoudl this kid be punished? of course he should. I just do not think he should be denied his graduation. He was suspended for the rest of the year..... I believe he should have to pay damages and perhaps a fine..... I also believe he should have to do some community service work for the school. I think this is plenty to teach cause and effect. Not banning him from an event that is 2 weeks after the deed. Punish him NOW for what he did. not two weeks from now.

[sparks19]

ARGH..... I am looking for the article but I apparently need to be more specific because a bunch of unrelated junk comes up everytime.

I will have to ask hubby when he gets home or tomorrow if he remembers the school district name.... that will probably help.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Gosh...I sure hope mommy and the media are there to bail him out when he uses that kind of language in the workplace. Where he most likely will be fired.

[ratdogg]

People who go into education as a career generally don't try to live their life as a high school teacher or administrator. They do tend to be people who were unsuccessful in pursuing a university position (just like jr.college police are failed police officers). I'm not trying to offend people, but um...high school isn't a great achievement in the education field. There are many many MANY poor principals and superintendents. Its not far fetched to believe a human in this position would lose their self control and engage a teenager in a name calling and power trip fight.

[sparks19]

Gosh...I sure hope mommy and the media are there to bail him out when he uses that kind of language in the workplace. Where he most likely will be fired.


No one excused the boys behaviour in the meeting.....

the graduation thing happened BEFORE the meeting was even set up.... and the language happened in the meeting. No it is not acceptable but it was not the cause of his being banned from grad.

[Ginger's Mom]

Tonya, although I could not find the incident you were talking about I did find three other articles talking about high school pranks and vandalism. And it appears that being banned from attending the graduation ceremony is a common punishment for seniors who commit acts of vandalism within a certain time period of graduation, and that the students are made aware of that beforehand. So even if the student hadn't been in trouble before he certainly knew what the punishment would be if he got caught.

[sparks19]

Tonya, although I could not find the incident you were talking about I did find three other articles talking about high school pranks and vandalism. And it appears that being banned from attending the graduation ceremony is a common punishment for seniors who commit acts of vandalism within a certain time period of graduation, and that the students are made aware of that beforehand. So even if the student hadn't been in trouble before he certainly knew what the punishment would be if he got caught.


the whole premise of the argument was that there was no specific rule stating it would be punished by no grad. that was the big argument.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Okay. So will mommy and the media be there when he gets fired for violating company policy? Pranking? Will mommy set up a meeting to talk to his boss?

People need to accept the consequence of their actions. Missing graduation does not strike me as that serious of a consequence. He can put on the cap and gown and mommy can take his photo.

I deal with these people in the workplace all the time.

He sounds to me like a Paris Hilton in training...

[Lady's Human]

People who go into education as a career generally don't try to live their life as a high school teacher or administrator.


I beg to differ. The majority of teachers in my high school who were excellent teachers, and were exactly where they wanted to be. While I have run across teachers who had negative attitudes, their attitudes had nothing to do with having failed at being anything else. They were just miserable individuals, period.

[Lady's Human]

ES, we agree?

MEIN GOTT! :eek:

[K9soul]

I have a hard time having much sympathy for this boy too. I remember being in school and how wild and disrespectful some of the kids would get when they knew they were basically 'home free' and thought they could get away with some final act they would never have dared before. There is not a whole lot of repercussion a school can give at the end of the year a few days before a senior graduates. A kid would laugh at being suspended or put in detention. He wasn't punished by failing him and denying him a diploma, he just can't go to the ceremony. This boy must be about 18 and headed out into the adult world and he needs to take it seriously. Vandalism is vandalism, he messed with the school's property and legally if any lasting damage was done (even to just a lunch tray), they could have pressed charges. I'm willing to bet if the kid had shown remorse and apology and acted like an adult, things MIGHT have gone differently. Even if they hadn't, at least he would have owned up to responsibility and been the better person for it. I guess I just have little tolerance for things like that. And I don't think the school could really enforce something like community service or anything that isn't to do with the school itself. I think they did about the only repercussion that was available to them at that point. This wasn't a kid in grade school putting a frog in his teacher's desk, this was a young man about to graduate and enter adulthood.

Just how I see it.

[sparks19]

I guess I just come from a place where this would have NEVER been an issue.

in elementary school the school let us ORGANIZE a prank and the teachers also organized their own prank.

I just find it a little sad that THIS is what they are making a big deal of.

Kids are being beaten, bullied and tortured everyday in schools and half the time those parents don't even get a phone call.... they just turn a blind eye..... but a kid glues some stupid trays together and the sh*t hits the fan lol. Seems if they put this much energy into the REAL issues instead of this petty nonsense maybe something would change.

however, I am also of the frame of mind that the PARENTS should be more involved in a childs schooling. Seems there is a big void between school and parents and that, to me, is sad.

As for this boy entering adulthood.... what about this makes him unsuitable for the working force? I guess I have just been lucky to work in places where our bosses had great sense's of humor. my bosses were often the ones pulling pranks on US for April fools day etc etc.

[moosmom]

Somehow I doubt this is the kid's only issue

I also doubt that this is the kid's FIRST time in trouble.

[IRescue452]

Our high school's policy was that any senior prank would get you banned from the graduation ceremony. No exceptions. We were all reminded of this several times in our senior year.

[catnapper]

In my day (oh jeeze I sound old saying that!) NOBODY played pranks. Nobody. It wasn't even a thought. Now today, tv shows are deedicated to pranks. Websites are dedeicated to pranks... and some of them are utterly disgusting!

I really would like to find the whole story before giving my opinion :)

[sparks19]

In my day (oh jeeze I sound old saying that!) NOBODY played pranks. Nobody. It wasn't even a thought. Now today, tv shows are deedicated to pranks. Websites are dedeicated to pranks... and some of them are utterly disgusting!

I really would like to find the whole story before giving my opinion :)

I know.... I have been looking but it was actually a discussion on a talk radio show lol so whenever I search google I get a whole list of junk that I don't want lol. and I'm sick so I don't have the energy to do a full search..... I think I got it from you :D

[ratdogg]

The majority of teachers in my high school who were excellent teachers, and were exactly where they wanted to be. While I have run across teachers who had negative attitudes, their attitudes had nothing to do with having failed at being anything else. They were just miserable individuals, period.

I'm talking about high school administrators....not teachers. The teachers are there to teach the kids to try and make a difference. The admins from my experience are unhappy failures.


There are many many MANY poor principals and superintendents. Its not far fetched to believe a human in this position would lose their self control and engage a teenager in a name calling and power trip fight.

[Lady's Human]

The same holds true for administrators. In EVERY job there are people who love the job, people who hate the job (minority who make it miserable for everyone), and people who do the job because it's all they know.

The majority of administrators are most likely quite capable people who enjoy their work, but the minority who don't are the ones who make the news.

As I've told people time and again, if you don't like your job, find another one and stop making it miserable for everyone else.

[RICHARD]

Here we go!

If anything the kid should be glad he wasn't charged with misdemeanor damage to school property or some other crime....


For our Senior prank we cut down the Senior Tree....not the brightest move
but I am glad we weren't caught because back then we would have gone to jail...... No frigging Admin meetings or dragging mom and dad into it.... :eek:

[mugsy]

Ok, the teacher has to stick her nose in here...

1. When I was in high school, we did senior pranks, but, they were not destructive. My class ran a flag up the flag pole that said "Eat me Iran!" (during the hostage crisis), we walked into the teachers' lounge and sat down to read the paper (teachers thought that was hysterical), the class of 78 put card catalog cards in the catalog (cross referenced) for books written by the staff at the school (they were still finding the cards when they dumped the catalog for computers).

2. You NEVER get the full story when the media is involved, especially when schools are the subject. The media is always looking for reasons to berate schools and teachers and administrators. I'm sure that you are not getting the full story about this kid. Based on my experiences, kids who are willing to speak to adults in those tones of voice and in such language, are NOT students who have never been in trouble.

3. As Richard said...vandalism is vandalism. It's against the law and if the only thing that happens to the kid is that he misses graduation, he should consider himself lucky. I dare say the kid did not just superglue 2 trays together...probably more like multiple STACKS of trays. Now, understand, I obviously don't know that, but, that would be my guess.

4. LH...just to let you know...I swear that one of the classes you have to take now is "Lack of Common Sense 505". I know from whence I speak, as I teach for one of the stupidest individuals I have ever had the displeasure of meeting. Not only that, she is plain out mean spirited. However, I will say, the superintendent probably did not use the same language as the student, just because he didn't want to lose his job. When mothers get involved in the argument, things usually go south pretty quickly (although I have had mothers get pretty darn upset with their kid when I tell them what REALLY happened...one mother told me I could do whatever I wanted to her son because he lied to her...I giggled and thanked her, but, told her I thought my principal would object if I got physical).

5. Sparks, if you could get the full story, I would definitely be interested in reading it.

[Jessika]

We were warned in my high school that any harmful or detrimental prank risked you not walking at graduation. Of course, they still happened anyway, and if they were caught they were true to their word. Grant it, the pranks that happened at my school were a little more severe than gluing a few trays together (one was letting a BUNCH of crickets loose in the basement, another was climbing onto the roof of commons and drawing graphic body parts on the windows, which was actually pretty funny afterwards because when admin cleaned the windows, they only cleaned the spots where the paint was, so you could still see what they had drawn even after they washed it off because it was a clean spot lol). An example of a harmless prank though was setting up huge signs in the parking lot that says "USED CARS FOR SALE: ALL CARS ONLY $2003!" and putting up streamers and people actually thought it was a used car lot.... lol. That one was a prank that was considered "ok".

HJ did not get to graduate period. But it had nothing to do with a senior prank or his grades. He had previously been homeschooled until his junior year when he was enrolled in public school. His mother gave all the appropriate paperwork and they said they (his sister and him) were good to go. A month before graduation they suddenly say "oh well we need this, this, this and this" and his mother had TOLD them half the papers had been lost in a fire, and they said it was ok what she gave them already would be fine. So neither him nor his sister got to graduate. They both had to get their GEDs.

[Edwina's Secretary]

The more I think about this the more annoyed I get. A kid uses that kind of language in front of his mother and to an adult/school administrator/authority should be banned from more than just graduation.

Yes, I realize that came after the original banning. But that tells me what kind of kid this is.

[buttercup132]

That's stupid for just gluing trays together:rolleyes: . Maybe a detention or something but I think even suspention is too much for doing something little like that. I know at my school you would probly just get told off by the teacher. But the same thing happened to one of my friends last year for a prank he did.
As for the swearing, I think it's stupid to get suspended for that to at least at my school it would be because the teachers swear at us too, so honestly what do they expect when they give the kids no respect and are setting that example.


He cannot expect a teen to keep his voice under control when he as an adult cannot do the same. Wow I wish my mother would understand this..

[Edwina's Secretary]

As for the swearing, I think it's stupid to get suspended for that to at least at my school it would be because the teachers swear at us too, so honestly what do they expect when they give the kids no respect and are setting that example.[/color][/b]

Wow I wish my mother would understand this..

I must say I do not believe you. I do not believe teachers call students M*&^&*^F)(*()*ers. If they do, they should be fired.

They certainly need to spend more time teaching writing skills.

What prank would you consider sufficient for disciplinary action? Someone physically hurt? An animal hurt? The amount of money it cost to clean up after the prank?

A prank is a prank. Someone has to clean up after the mess. The school has to buy new trays.

[Cataholic]

Interesting in observing what side someone comes down on- too severe, or not too severe. Seems pretty tied into how old (read that experienced, mature, worldly, however you like) the voter is.

Things I found 'prankish' as a younger person; egging cars and TPing someones house. I now look back on those things and think, "Geez, what kind of idiot was I"? How stupid could I (my friends, too) have been? VERY.


To talk to ANY person like that? WOW. Those just aren't the sort of things one wakes up and says, "Today, I am going to start this sort of disrespectfulness".

High School should be viewed as A training ground for the 'real world'. So, better he learn his actions affect his life NOW when he isn't responsible for much besides pocket money and gas money.

[RICHARD]

I just read a story about 5 kids who were denied their diplomas because of the people who were there to watch the ceremony.

_I saw those AHs that disprupted a college ceremony because a GWB crony came to speak-

Now, Y'all have freedom of speech, but why are you going to wreck a gathering where YOU are not the only ones with an opinion, Pro or Con.

I mean some people made a sacrifice to GET thru school and some mouthy punks have to turn it into a clip on the evening news?

Politics has nothing to do with it...I am talking DECORUM.

Oops, Half the graduating class probably don't know what it meant.

----------

back to the original point......

The families of the students SIGNED a contract saying that they would maintain their 'cool' during the ceremony and not yell or scream....so the top kid in the class is denied their diploma because her stupid arse family and four thers can't be quiet for a minute....Now they are suing the district.

I use the term effing morons too much. These are Stupid Effing Morons.

[lizbud]

but it just seems that this kid is being denied a life changing moment and life long memory for something so stupid and petty. I mean, there are kids out there that harass, abuse, and basically torture other students and yet NOTHING is done about it. This kid pulls a stupid prank and he is banned from school property and his grad?




Seems to me the kid did have his "life changing moment" when he
decided to give in to a childish prank. Choices in life have consequences.
It's about time the boy learned that.

[crow_noir]

So why not just make the kid that did it pay for the new trays?

You learn a lot of respect for the things you have to pay for.

Even if i accidentally broke a toy i never got a replacement. That was that.

People in this thread keep talking about "The Real World." In the real world the phrase goes "You broke it, you bought it."


I must say I do not believe you. I do not believe teachers call students M*&^&*^F)(*()*ers. If they do, they should be fired.

They certainly need to spend more time teaching writing skills.

What prank would you consider sufficient for disciplinary action? Someone physically hurt? An animal hurt? The amount of money it cost to clean up after the prank?

A prank is a prank. Someone has to clean up after the mess. The school has to buy new trays.

[buttercup132]

So why not just make the kid that did it pay for the new trays?

You learn a lot of respect for the things you have to pay for.

Even if i accidentally broke a toy i never got a replacement. That was that.

People in this thread keep talking about "The Real World." In the real world the phrase goes "You broke it, you bought it."That kind of punishment would be better IMO.

And yes the teachers say that and no they aren't fired. Nobody cares enough to go and report them.

One of my teachers is sexist and makes fun of guys who do "sissy" sports, in every class he teaches. Last year he made fun of my friend for getting stabbed all because he's 20 and still bmx's. My friends obviously were mad, they were graduating so for the prank they egged his car. They got in trouble the teacher still never has.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Because mommy would pay for it...teaching nothing...

[sparks19]

Because mommy would pay for it...teaching nothing...


well then that's a whole different issue. In my house.... If I damaged something.... I had to pay for it. Hence, my strong resistance to driving.... you get a whole new respect for cars when you have to pay to have the dents and scratches fixed in your mothers car lol. At 17 or 18 years old he should at least have a part time job I would hope....

But I have still been unsuccessful in finding the news story about this particular case.... I didn't actually hear it on the news... it was on a talk radio show and they were discussing it with the mother... and then some other people (I don't know who they were)

[buttercup132]

Because mommy would pay for it...teaching nothing...Why do you assume that? Nice way to view teenagers:rolleyes: I know my mom sure as heck wouldn't pay for it. It's stupid remarks like that, that make younger people disrespect their elders..

[lizbud]

Why do you assume that? Nice way to view teenagers:rolleyes: I know my mom sure as heck wouldn't pay for it. It's stupid remarks like that, that make younger people disrespect their elders..


It's clear you don't understand respect. It is earned with wise choices
in the adult world. The world owes you nothing but a chance to earn respect
for yourself.

[K9soul]

Things have sure changed since I was in school, and I graduated in '93. I can't even imagine speaking in such a way to anyone when I was a kid, but especially an adult, or rolling my eyes at them. Maybe it is just how I was raised, but I certainly thank my mom for that. I always try to be respectful, even if it is not being reciprocated. It will just get you a lot farther in life with people you deal with on a day-to-day basis.

[Alysser]

I know this is off topic, but there are some teachers I would just will NEVER like. I never have talked back to a teacher, I always try and be polite to them. Saying sorry when I knock something down, saying thanks when they help me with something I don't understand, but some teachers I just cannot STAND, like my spanish teacher. She has no respect for my class, so even though I show her some respect, I will never like her.

Yes, I guess with certain kids, they have a right to yell at them, and I fully agree alot of the time but when a kid is DOING nothing wrong we get yelled at anyway. I hate when one kid or several, not the whole class, does something wrong, we all get extra work or extra lectures. ALOT of teachers at my school(especially the spanish teacher) pick on certain kids and it annoys the crap out of me. Please don't say you don't believe me, because if you weren't in our class you would have no idea what I am talking about and I guess will never fully understand. You can choose NOT to believe this whole post but I know it's true and it's really sad, IMO.

[sparks19]

I have to be honest here..... While I cannot stand it when kids speak like that to their elders and was always taught to not speak that way to my elders.... my temper did get the best of me once in highschool.

This is gonna sound like the stories your parents tell you about walking up hill both ways lol....

I missed the bus one day.... I could have just said screw it and stayed home and had my dad write me a note the next day excusing my absence... but I decided to walk..... in the middle of winter.... and it took me an hour and a half to walk there. So I missed my first class and got to my second class late (which was a gym class) when I got to class my teacher was harrassing me about being late.... so I told her my story about missing the bus and walking to school from where I lived in the cold and snow lol just so I wouldn't miss school all together. She didn't believe me :eek: and told me it was a likely story.... LOL I got so mad... I said "You don't believe me? feel my F*cking skin.... you think I just liek to sit out in the cold and snow just so I can be late for class? are you a crazy lady?" I got detention LOL but let me tell ya it was well worth it.

Was I in the right? no but sometimes your temper just gets the better of you.... I am sure everyone here has had a time when they have said something they probably shouldn't have said ....

[Lady's Human]

Said something I possibly shouldn't have to someone in charge? Yes. All the time in the Army.

Said something I shouldn't have to a teacher?

Never.

Not attending graduation would have been the least of my worries.

[K9soul]

Yes, I guess with certain kids, they have a right to yell at them, and I fully agree alot of the time but when a kid is DOING nothing wrong we get yelled at anyway. I hate when one kid or several, not the whole class, does something wrong, we all get extra work or extra lectures. ALOT of teachers at my school(especially the spanish teacher) pick on certain kids and it annoys the crap out of me. Please don't say you don't believe me, because if you weren't in our class you would have no idea what I am talking about and I guess will never fully understand. You can choose NOT to believe this whole post but I know it's true and it's really sad, IMO.

Alyssa, I never agreed with teachers who punish a whole class because of one student's behavior either. Their philosophy was it'd make the rest of us get hard on the other kid and make him/her behave, but it didn't work that way. I know there are difficult teachers, I had some too. You'll find there will always be difficult people to deal with no matter where you are, supervisors, co-workers, neighbors, landlords, etc etc. You just have to do the best you can and get through it, while trying to keep a hold of your own integrity. You can't control how they behave but you can control how you behave. I would never say that all teachers are infallible or kind or behave the way they should. They are people just like the rest of us and there are ones who behave poorly and ones who conduct themselves in a more respectful way. All you can do is try to be the bigger person. It won't be too long and you won't have to deal with that particular teacher anymore. I know how frustrating it can be.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Why do you assume that? Nice way to view teenagers:rolleyes: I know my mom sure as heck wouldn't pay for it. It's stupid remarks like that, that make younger people disrespect their elders..

I love the delicious irony of this statement.

The thing is...I was once a teenager. You have not yet been an adult yet. (If you are lucky you will be one day.)

You do not have the privilege of calling me or my remark stupid.

You earn that and you haven't done it yet.

And a part of growing up is learning to control your temper and your words.

Meanwhile, as long as I pay the taxes that purchase the trays and other supplies to provide you with an education, I earn the right to make negative remarks about people who deface school property, are rude and disrepectful to parents and school authorities.

Let me know how you feel in 20 years.

[catnapper]

Let me know how you feel in 20 years.
I often wonder what some people will think if they ever return to their threads here in 20 years. :p

I think the trouble here lies in the feeling of invincibility we've fostered in kids today. Don't tell them "no" as a child because you might hurt their confidence. Don't tell them they're wrong or you might hamper their creativity. Great, now we're stuck with a bunch of creative kids with cockiness off the scales. They don't think any law or rule can touch t hem. They'll get out of it by being charming. If that fails, mommy and daddy will come to the rescue.

My husband had an issue one afternoon with kids in his class. What they did wasn't as important to how they reacted when he told them to remain in their seats and focus on their books. One told him point-blank to "f*@%-off" and hubby sent him to the vice principal. 10 minutes later the kid was back WITHOUT a detention because the school is overwhelmed with bigger issues. They see they can lip off without repercussions so they try bigger acts of defiance thinking they can get away with it. Then one day he goes one step too far and is banned from graduation, he starts crying foul play.

Fast forward from the incident where the kid mouthed off to today. The same kid who told hubby to "f*@%-off" was banned from their schools' 8th grade graduation ceremony because he misbehaved with the wrong person watching, and that person decided to make the kid responsible for his actions by removing him from the ceremony. His mom was there, outside sceaming her head off because her precious son who never got into trouble wasn't allowed to walk in the ceremony. This boy who "never got in trouble" was ALWAYS in the principal's office. Always getting calls home with warnings. Just because he never actually got suspensions or many detenisons doesn;t mean he wasn't ever in trouble.

Funny how I read this last week and a VERY similar situation occured to hubby's student today!

[sparks19]

I think the trouble here lies in the feeling of invincibility we've fostered in kids today. Don't tell them "no" as a child because you might hurt their confidence. Don't tell them they're wrong or you might hamper their creativity. Great, now we're stuck with a bunch of creative kids with cockiness off the scales. They don't think any law or rule can touch t hem. They'll get out of it by being charming. If that fails, mommy and daddy will come to the rescue.

!


I couldn't agree more with this statement.

They can't play tag or what ever other game cause someone might feel excluded or have their feelings hurt or fall down and go boom..... you can't hold kids back a grade if they are not progressing (although I do NOT see how pushing them ahead a grade to harder material helps them one bit) You can't give kids a failing grade because it hurts their feelings or embarrasses them.....

Basically you can't discipline kids anymore AT ALL. and kids KNOW it. And this goes for parents too.... you give your kid a swat on the butt and someone see's it and reports you for ABUSE.....

[Lady's Human]

You can't discipline kids anymore?

Damn.

And to think all this time the last 5 years that's exactly what I've been doing with my daughter.

[catnapper]

Hey, that reminds me. I was helping hubby grade some papers this year. It was all multiple choice. Basically, I went down a row, A B B A C D A B D D A, etc. If they answered B when it should have been C, I was supposed to mark it wrong. No X's. No slashes. Just the letter it should have been. And I got "yelled" at for using red ink, so I just used purple :rolleyes: . Apparently red is mean and could hurt their feelings -- dude, you got it wrong! Do ya want me to hand you a twinkie to make you feel better? Wrong is wrong, right is right. I learned from my mistakes. Nobody sugar coated them. I got red X's. I grew up with a good sense of self. Heck, red's my favorite color! ;)

[crow_noir]

Re: Red ink.

Fear the red. Fear it! :p

Yeah... you don't want to see the red ink on your paper study harder! One should be so grateful as to get the correct answer marked so that you can learn.

Red ink might hurt their feelings. Jeesh!!! :rolleyes:

[cali]

this reminded me of an incident here, a girl was suspended for 10 days for bring a plastc toy gun to school to play "cops and robbers" with her friend during lunch hour, the toy was put away for the rest of the day. there was a huge outcry of people dclairing that she got what she deserved. what pissed me off the most was the same day this one happend, another incident happed at another school, a kid brought a PELLET gun to school, took it outside at recess and began shooting unsuspecting classmates with the pellet gun. this kids punishment? 1 day suspension and not one single person objected to what the kid did or his punishment. the punishment for that pellet gun should have been WAAAYYY more severe then the punishment for a toy in a girl backpack,maybe if people paid attention to the people that actually needed help schools would not need to be adding securitys guards and metal detectors, instead the heavy punishments goes to the petty "crimes", while the serious "crimes" get only a slap on the wrist..if anything.

[ratdogg]

a pellet gun is not comparable at all to a plastic toy gun...just curious but did the toy gun incident happen in the suburbs? I live in a suburb of SF and people here think they are hot stuff even though they aren't really that wealthy or distinguished.

[cali]

nope, no suburbs, both schools involved were normal middle class schools, neither high end nor inner city. a 1 day suspentions went to the kid with a gun that could injure, and was intentinally used against unknowing students. a 10 days suspention went to a girl who played with an utterly harmless toy gun ONLY with her friend, and had it put away for the remaindor of the day.

[CagneyDog]

Being a kid myself, I don't think that was a fair punishment. Although I do see the other end of spectrum too.

I've made mistakes, I've said things I shouldn't have. I know that we all have regardless of age. Was it a stupid thing to do? Yes. Was that a bad way to react? Yes. However, in my opinion putting a damper on a teens future because he swore and glued some trays together is going a bit far. With that being said, I do think he needs to learn a lesson and the fact that he clearly has no respect for his teachers is appalling.

[K9soul]

However, in my opinion putting a damper on a teens future because he swore and glued some trays together is going a bit far.

Actually it would do nothing to put a damper on his future. He will still get his diploma, probably mailed to him. He just can't go to the actual ceremony at the school and get it in public. He wasn't denied graduating, just going to the ceremony.

[sparks19]

You can't discipline kids anymore?

Damn.

And to think all this time the last 5 years that's exactly what I've been doing with my daughter.


You better hope no one sees you.... or they will report you to the hurt feelings police :D

I'm telling ya man... it happens all the time.

I remember in my hometown there was a guy at the mall with his two kids. I believe they were about 5 and 3 or something close to that anyway.... this was a few years ago. Anyway the younger child was climbing into the car and the older child came running over and slammed the car door and the little boys fingers got slammed in the door. So the father gave the little girl a whomp on the butt.... big deal right? Well someone saw this... called childrens aid and there was a big to do about him smacking his daughter on the butt. It was all over in the papers and they "tracked" this story while the childrens aid dealt with the situation. WTF?????!!!!! A smack on the butt is abuse and warrants the childrens aid? Good thing they are so worried about these kids whose parents are actually trying to raise them properly instead of these kids that are really suffering REAL abuse. :rolleyes:

But yes Catnapper.... I hear it all the time with my nieces and nephews being in school..... no red.... no X's.... no one is wrong everyone is always right.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Dear god will people ever stop waxing poetic about "back in their day?" Today, unlike many years ago, many teaching strategies are based on empirical evidence and research. Giving students the correct answer, instead of simply telling them they are wrong without providing the correct answer, is a learning strategy. I would rather get a test back with the right answers, so I know how to change them, instead of just getting a useless piece of paper slashed with red ink.

Just because something is different than what it used to be like doesn't mean it's bad. People like to pretend that the world is the worst it's ever been- and in many ways it is, like global warming and people still living like it's 1950 and we don't know how harmful certain behaviors are when we really do. But in many ways society is better. There is less violent crime than ever, less teen pregnancies, LESS problems with youth.

I also think it's terribly hypocritical to tell teenagers on one hand to buck up and "live in the real world" and on the other give them a condescending lecture about how they are not adults. Fine, if teenagers are not adults, then don't expect them to act like it. I think people expect teens to act a certain way, so they do.

As far as the kid with the trays goes, all he's being denied is walking down to get his diploma. So what? What kind of punishment is that even? He still gets to graduate. I don't understand what the big deal is.

[Cataholic]

Dear god will people ever stop waxing poetic about "back in their day?" Today, unlike many years ago, many teaching strategies are based on empirical evidence and research. Giving students the correct answer, instead of simply telling them they are wrong without providing the correct answer, is a learning strategy. I would rather get a test back with the right answers, so I know how to change them, instead of just getting a useless piece of paper slashed with red ink.


I, for one, do not consider my comments "waxing poetically". However, they are from 20 plus years of post high school experience. Many times, with age, comes wisdom. Not always, but, many times. So, for some of us, offering a <gasp> mature attitude is nothing more than, in shortened form, "Hey, grow up". Educating, preaching, showing, illustrating, whatever comfortable word one uses, is what one gets when one posts a "can you believe this" post on a public message board.

Back in my day, there was much more respect for 'authority' in whatever form you put it- police, teachers, parents. Take a ten minute walk in any mall and tell me you don't see that for yourself. As for the comment to teen pregnancy, I would wager a bet it is because of more widely available forms of protection, better education as to sex, etc., rather than some comment on the status of the (American) world today. As for less violence? Where do you see that? Certainly not in the mass tragedies that have haunted this country since Columbine. Certainly not in the criminal justice system that is full of teen defendants. There are more alternative high schools in this country now than ever before- all the cater to those that can't pass in the more traditional sense.

As for getting a paper back with a red "x" on it, versus a more friendly written reason for the incorrect attitude, there is a middle ground. How about the student look up the right answer him/herself? There is some research that suggests the many different ways we receive the material can better cement it into our memories- hearing it, writing it, reading/seeing it, reiterating it. So, to somehow suggest it is incumbent upon the teacher to give it to the student, without putting some responsibility upon the student, isn't really 'teaching' is it?




I also think it's terribly hypocritical to tell teenagers on one hand to buck up and "live in the real world" and on the other give them a condescending lecture about how they are not adults. Fine, if teenagers are not adults, then don't expect them to act like it. I think people expect teens to act a certain way, so they do.


I believe many people were speaking in more casual ways- the word teen COULD very well be a 19 year old, a legal adult. But, a 14 or 16 year old is not an adult, I agree. Does this mean you feel there is no accountability for someone under the age of 18? Or, that some lightswitch suddenly flips at 18, and the person leaves his childish ways behind? There is a gradation process, I believe. (Some never reaching it, of course, and some reaching it much earlier that believable). But, to somehow fail to mention the 'right' way, just cause someone is young seems irresponsible. I tell my 2 year old all the time the way things should be done. I don't expect him to comply, fully understand, but, I still shoulder this responsibility.



As far as the kid with the trays goes, all he's being denied is walking down to get his diploma. So what? What kind of punishment is that even? He still gets to graduate. I don't understand what the big deal is.

This seems kind of contradictory to your earlier writings.

[caseysmom]

Dear god will people ever stop waxing poetic about "back in their day?" Today, unlike many years ago, many teaching strategies are based on empirical evidence and research. Giving students the correct answer, instead of simply telling them they are wrong without providing the correct answer, is a learning strategy. I would rather get a test back with the right answers, so I know how to change them, instead of just getting a useless piece of paper slashed with red ink.

Just because something is different than what it used to be like doesn't mean it's bad. People like to pretend that the world is the worst it's ever been- and in many ways it is, like global warming and people still living like it's 1950 and we don't know how harmful certain behaviors are when we really do. But in many ways society is better. There is less violent crime than ever, less teen pregnancies, LESS problems with youth.

I also think it's terribly hypocritical to tell teenagers on one hand to buck up and "live in the real world" and on the other give them a condescending lecture about how they are not adults. Fine, if teenagers are not adults, then don't expect them to act like it. I think people expect teens to act a certain way, so they do.

As far as the kid with the trays goes, all he's being denied is walking down to get his diploma. So what? What kind of punishment is that even? He still gets to graduate. I don't understand what the big deal is.

I loved this post, I get tired of all the teen bashing on here, I think there are some pretty mature fine individuals on this site that happen to be teens.

[K9soul]

I didn't see any teen bashing. I have a lot of respect for people no matter what age if they can act respectful and with an awareness of others' feelings. I simply feel someone shouldn't be "let off the hook" and excused for any behavior that harms property or is damaging no matter WHAT age they are. It should never be acceptable.

I agree with everything Johanna stated in her last post on this one. And I do not believe I behave in a derogatory manner to anyone here based on age.

[Alysser]

I loved this post, I get tired of all the teen bashing on here, I think there are some pretty mature fine individuals on this site that happen to be teens.

I agree, thank you pembroke_corgi and caseysmom. JUST because teenagers are younger then adults doesn't mean they are stupid. I hate how a couple of bad apples ruin the reputation for the rest of us. I am also sick of the constant bashing, it needs to stop.

[Cataholic]

I agree, thank you pembroke_corgi and caseysmom. JUST because teenagers are younger then adults doesn't mean they are stupid. I hate how a couple of bad apples ruin the reputation for the rest of us. I am also sick of the constant bashing, it needs to stop.

I thought the OP was about someone unknown to all of us. Right? Wasn't it something in the paper somewhere that someone posted? So, when the comments came in, weren't the comments directed towards this particular teen? How is that teen bashing? Maybe bashing one teen (if, in fact, it was bashing at all), but, not teen bashing.

Like K9soul- bring me upstanding behaviour, or the raunchiest kind, regardless of age, and I applaud/disagree with the conduct. This really isn't about 'age'. It is about maturity, 'world' views, and social responsibility.

Maltese love, I hate to 'wax poetic', but, from my experience, the 'bad apple' spoils the bunch not only in high school, but, in the real world too.

Why do employers enact dress codes? Hours of employment? Policies of phone use, computer use, lunch hours, vacation, fraternization at the work place? Why do municipalites enact leash laws? Noise ordinances? Zoning codes? Heck, where I live, I can only put my trash out to the curb a set number of hours ahead of the appointed pickup.

Because 'bad apples' spoil the bunch. If this is distasteful commentary from some old bat, so be it. I wouldn't want to have your system shocked when you leave school.

I do love this debate, teens are people, too; but, not up to the point where personal responsibility comes into play.

It is a cruel, cruel world. I didn't make it, but, I do have to live in it. So do you and all the others.

[caseysmom]

I realize the op was about another teen but there seemed to be a lot of broad sweeping generalizations going on.

I have two teens, they are night and day I wouldn't think that either of them could be generalized in one way.

[sparks19]

Back in my day, there was much more respect for 'authority' in whatever form you put it- police, teachers, parents. Take a ten minute walk in any mall and tell me you don't see that for yourself. .


While this is very true and I cannot often believe the language coming out of kids these days.... I know that I was not always a perfect child but I often say "Im glad I never behaved like that" but the truth is I probably did sometimes.

As for there being respect for authority in your day..... That may be true for YOU.... but I know there are many people your age and older that do not respect authority now nor did they back then. Even my dad got the strap a time or two at school for being a bugger lol. Everyone has their moments when they are less than perfect.

In fact, some of the rudest people I have ever met are the "older back in my day" crowd. So while it is easy to sit back and say "I'm glad I never behaved like that. I always respected everyone." (even I find myself saying the same thing and I am only 26) It likely isn't true that you were ALWAYS respectful and never had less than top notch moments.

I don't think it is any worse to be totally rude and ignorant to an authority figure or just your average joe. Being rude is being rude, I don't think it matter who you are speaking to.

LOL and totally off topic.... I love how you referred to yourself as an old bat.... that's funny. I love that term and I hope I can be an old bat one day :D

[Cataholic]

Sparks19, forgive me if you feel I ever came across as if I were claiming I were perfect. Not than, not now, and I fear I won't be in the future, either. I have done some stupid things in my past, and while maybe not up to the level of some I hear about, stupid nonetheless.

BUT, I don't feel my imperfections mean I cannot hold an opinion. If that were the case, there wouldn't be a single person on the board, eh?

As for whether or not anyone has been rude or disrespectful to others in the past, I do feel that our own analysis of whether we have or have not been might not be the best indicator!

[sparks19]

Sparks19, forgive me if you feel I ever came across as if I were claiming I were perfect. Not than, not now, and I fear I won't be in the future, either. I have done some stupid things in my past, and while maybe not up to the level of some I hear about, stupid nonetheless.

BUT, I don't feel my imperfections mean I cannot hold an opinion. If that were the case, there wouldn't be a single person on the board, eh?

As for whether or not anyone has been rude or disrespectful to others in the past, I do feel that our own analysis of whether we have or have not been might not be the best indicator!


I never said your opinion wasn't valid.... only that there are a great deal of people in the "back in my day" generation that are very rude and ignorant.... not saying that you are one of them.... and as time goes by I REALLY try to be respectful to everyone.... of course that comes easier when dealing with some people than it does with others. I find being in retail that it takes a conscious effort for me to be pleasant to the nasty customers that just want to complain... but I try my best :D

It's funny.... I was just talking to an old friend the other day from elementary school and we were talking about all the things we used to do... man we were BUGGERS sometimes lol. We did some STUPID things. everyone does... it's called growing up :D now whether we bring that stupid behaviour into adult hood or leave it behind in our younger years is another matter.

[cassiesmom]

I graduated from parochial high school 24 years ago. (24 years ago June 10th, in fact. :) ) You could get in serious trouble really fast if you said or did anything disrespectful, not just to the teachers or principal, but to the librarian, office staff, bus drivers, custodians, basically any adult. Sometimes I wonder how I would get through high school if I were a student now. My sister-in-law teaches middle school and from the stories she tells I think things are just a lot different for kids. The Internet, media, the role of families and the function of a family in a child's life, things have just changed a lot. It seems to me that life just moves faster now than it did when I was in high school in the early '80s. I don't know if that is really possible, but it sure seems that way to me.

Edited to ask: Could it be that the expectations placed on kids are just different? Or, were my parents just tougher on discipline than the parents of today? I don't know. I can tell you I was a kid who toed the line and never took a risk. Even now, at 40, I'm risk-averse. Back then I wouldn't have dared to glue the trays together out of fear of the consequences.

[sparks19]

I also think what is considered rude has changed a little bit as well.... I mean of course foul language is ALWAYS rude.... although you do hear it everywhere today even on commercials.

But some people find it just as rude to be called ma'am or sir as it is to be told to pound salt.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Back in my day, there was much more respect for 'authority' in whatever form you put it- police, teachers, parents. Take a ten minute walk in any mall and tell me you don't see that for yourself. As for the comment to teen pregnancy, I would wager a bet it is because of more widely available forms of protection, better education as to sex, etc., rather than some comment on the status of the (American) world today. As for less violence? Where do you see that? Certainly not in the mass tragedies that have haunted this country since Columbine. Certainly not in the criminal justice system that is full of teen defendants. There are more alternative high schools in this country now than ever before- all the cater to those that can't pass in the more traditional sense.

Not knowing you personally, I have no idea what decade you grew up in. However, many people in my parent's generation started a profound lack of disrespect for authority. Or did you read a different history about the 1960's? Since when did people then have a respect for most kinds of authority? Some of it was for good reason- consider the civil rights movement, for example. Some of it was fashion, popular culture, the throws of youth, whatever you want to call it with phrases like "don't trust anyone over 30." There were mass demonstrations, riots, and any number of events that could be considered "disrespectful." I fail to see how today's youth is more "disrespectful" than that.

As for less violent crime, look here: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm, you will see that most kinds of violent crime peaked in the early 1990's. Not only was there more crime then- and it has more or less steadily declined- but we have a higher population now. And sex education is a good thing, lowered teen pregnancies show that providing teens with information that actually works- not just using the same half- information that their parents learned.


As for getting a paper back with a red "x" on it, versus a more friendly written reason for the incorrect attitude, there is a middle ground. How about the student look up the right answer him/herself? There is some research that suggests the many different ways we receive the material can better cement it into our memories- hearing it, writing it, reading/seeing it, reiterating it. So, to somehow suggest it is incumbent upon the teacher to give it to the student, without putting some responsibility upon the student, isn't really 'teaching' is it?

You are assuming that 1) teachers have the time to make sure their students actually look this stuff up and 2) students will continue learning the material after their test is over. Many current educational laws (i.e. No Child Left Behind) encourage schools to teach to the test- they have to in order to get funding. Therefore, whether or not a student learns the information or not is irrelevant to getting funding. Only rote memorization is required. I'm certainly not advocating this, in fact I think it's setting our education further behind the developed world. However, providing students with an answer is certainly more helpful then just telling them it's wrong.


I believe many people were speaking in more casual ways- the word teen COULD very well be a 19 year old, a legal adult. But, a 14 or 16 year old is not an adult, I agree. Does this mean you feel there is no accountability for someone under the age of 18? Or, that some lightswitch suddenly flips at 18, and the person leaves his childish ways behind? There is a gradation process, I believe. (Some never reaching it, of course, and some reaching it much earlier that believable). But, to somehow fail to mention the 'right' way, just cause someone is young seems irresponsible. I tell my 2 year old all the time the way things should be done. I don't expect him to comply, fully understand, but, I still shoulder this responsibility.

Of course I think there should be accountability. But telling the kid he can't attend his graduation ceremony is kind of arbitrary. Why not make him work in the cafeteria to pay for the damage, for example- a lesson that is directly related to the crime, something that can actually teach a lesson instead of playing some kind of power struggle. I'm sure the kid isn't suffering because he can't go- most likely his parents are more upset than him.

My remark about teens was that people are simultaneously telling teens to "grow up" and then remarking on how immature they are. How are they supposed to do that if they have constant reminders about how unworthy they are? I see people on this site belittle younger members all the time, and often dismiss their viewpoints because they are still in high school. In my experience, age does not equal wisdom. I work with children and teens, and often times I see more "common sense" in them then I ever see in other adults.

Besides, if adults have so much more wisdom and propriety than teens, why are they making petty comments that I see all the time? Why would they even feel the need to say how much smarter and world-wise they are; you would think that would be self-evident. Even subtle remarks like "tell me what you think in 10 years" are condescending jabs that are completely ridiculous. It really annoys me that people assume someone else will feel the same as they do just due to the passing of time. We all have our own unique experiences that allow us to have unique opinions. Teens should be allowed to express their views without criticism like that.

[Cataholic]

PM- You seem to be taking this thread pretty personally. I am not sure why, but, of course, you can. I really don't see the same "everyone keeps saying this...", or "I always see the belittling comments..." or any of the other over generalizing statments you are making. I have read the thread twice, in its entirety.

Frankly, I don't see "check back in 10 years.." in quite the inflammatory way that you do. I think most of us would agree our perspectives do change over time. Is that good, bad or evil, I don't know. I would not go so far as to call it a 'fact' that people mature over time, but, certainly, it isn't a fictional statment, either.

I never know how to respond to someone that says something along the lines of, "well, all the adults I know are immature, and the kids have WAY more common sense then them", other than: change your friends. I see people from all walks of life, daily. I can say, without impunity, the adults tend to be WAY more mature than the younger set. Dunno. Maybe it is my perception?

I don't know what decade I grew up in. I was born in 1965. So, I guess it would be the 70s. I am not sure what history books I read, and what accounts they provided. Seeminly, I would have read the same ones you did. I would hardly lump the civil rights movement, any anti-war movement, and the anti-establishment groups in with an individual gluing two trays together in a school cafeteria. Just doesn't seem like these groups were fighting the same fight, you know what I mean?

I guess it depends on how you define violent crime. I never saw Columbine like activity before Columbine. I never saw young defendants like I see now, routinely- in the news, in the jails, in the courts. I have never seen the child snatchings, the child murders, like we have seen in the last ten years.

If, as you claim, the teachers don't even have the time to make sure the students are looking up the answers, what makes you think the teachers have the time to write the correct answers down for thier kids? Time is time. I still don't buy the theory, "the teacher takes the heat, the kids gets the pass". It isn't a theory that will take them very far IRL. As you say, you work with children and teens all the time. Certainly, you don't advocate the "well, if the teacher didn't do it for you, you are free to ignore that information".

Finally, it is that double standard. If teens have this 'right' to express their views (of course, I agree), then, adults enjoy that same right. I just don't see all this belittling stuff you are speaking of. Maybe I just read the wrong threads.

[sparks19]

Just want to add that maturity does not always bring common sense or civility. There are many people that are mature but still just as rude. :D and there are a lot of people that lack common sense even though they are mature.... hence all the stupid warnings they have to put on products lol.

[Cataholic]

Just want to add that maturity does not always bring common sense or civility. There are many people that are mature but still just as rude. :D and there are a lot of people that lack common sense even though they are mature.... hence all the stupid warnings they have to put on products lol.


While I haven't ever really thought about it before, you are exactly right. Good point.

And, then, there is the definition of maturity, in general. One can be the absolute most mature 10 year old on the planet, but, that isn't really the same as saying the 26 year old in the next room, also mature, is on the same plane as the 10 year old. (I purposely picked 26 for YOU, Sparks19, LOL).

[sparks19]

While I haven't ever really thought about it before, you are exactly right. Good point.

And, then, there is the definition of maturity, in general. One can be the absolute most mature 10 year old on the planet, but, that isn't really the same as saying the 26 year old in the next room, also mature, is on the same plane as the 10 year old. (I purposely picked 26 for YOU, Sparks19, LOL).


LOL thanks... I feel so special :D

and yes I agree. I really don't think a 10 year old is ever as mature as someone twice or three times their age.... I think the appropriate statement is that the 10 year old is very mature for their age....

[Alysser]

Not knowing you personally, I have no idea what decade you grew up in. However, many people in my parent's generation started a profound lack of disrespect for authority. Or did you read a different history about the 1960's? Since when did people then have a respect for most kinds of authority? Some of it was for good reason- consider the civil rights movement, for example. Some of it was fashion, popular culture, the throws of youth, whatever you want to call it with phrases like "don't trust anyone over 30." There were mass demonstrations, riots, and any number of events that could be considered "disrespectful." I fail to see how today's youth is more "disrespectful" than that.

As for less violent crime, look here: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm, you will see that most kinds of violent crime peaked in the early 1990's. Not only was there more crime then- and it has more or less steadily declined- but we have a higher population now. And sex education is a good thing, lowered teen pregnancies show that providing teens with information that actually works- not just using the same half- information that their parents learned.



You are assuming that 1) teachers have the time to make sure their students actually look this stuff up and 2) students will continue learning the material after their test is over. Many current educational laws (i.e. No Child Left Behind) encourage schools to teach to the test- they have to in order to get funding. Therefore, whether or not a student learns the information or not is irrelevant to getting funding. Only rote memorization is required. I'm certainly not advocating this, in fact I think it's setting our education further behind the developed world. However, providing students with an answer is certainly more helpful then just telling them it's wrong.



Of course I think there should be accountability. But telling the kid he can't attend his graduation ceremony is kind of arbitrary. Why not make him work in the cafeteria to pay for the damage, for example- a lesson that is directly related to the crime, something that can actually teach a lesson instead of playing some kind of power struggle. I'm sure the kid isn't suffering because he can't go- most likely his parents are more upset than him.

My remark about teens was that people are simultaneously telling teens to "grow up" and then remarking on how immature they are. How are they supposed to do that if they have constant reminders about how unworthy they are? I see people on this site belittle younger members all the time, and often dismiss their viewpoints because they are still in high school. In my experience, age does not equal wisdom. I work with children and teens, and often times I see more "common sense" in them then I ever see in other adults.

Besides, if adults have so much more wisdom and propriety than teens, why are they making petty comments that I see all the time? Why would they even feel the need to say how much smarter and world-wise they are; you would think that would be self-evident. Even subtle remarks like "tell me what you think in 10 years" are condescending jabs that are completely ridiculous. It really annoys me that people assume someone else will feel the same as they do just due to the passing of time. We all have our own unique experiences that allow us to have unique opinions. Teens should be allowed to express their views without criticism like that.


I completely agree 100%. Cataholic, I wasn't exactly talking about this thread, with teen bashing, some of it yes, but more like past threads I have seen. It's not only the bashing, it's also blaming. Sorry if I didn't make it clear. For example, when a troll comes on PT and someone post "I can't wait till kids go back to school". That annoys me more then anything. People who say that seem to forget about teenagers on here, who have done nothing wrong yet they are still being blamed because we are kids and are in school.

I often write a long and drawn-out reply about my opinion on a thread, and I usually wind up deleting because my opinion is different from all the other adults, and I'm afraid of being ridiculed. I know, it does sound stupid, even to me but it's the honest truth. Most adults, at least around here, think kids/teens are stupid and disrespectful. Me and my friends are often judged by the way we dress, because we wear band shirts to the mall all adults look at us weird or avoid us. It's as if we're going to hurt them, when in reality we would never do anything.

sorry for the long rambling...there is plenty more I could say but I don't have the energy right now.

[sparks19]

Okay. So will mommy and the media be there when he gets fired for violating company policy? Pranking? Will mommy set up a meeting to talk to his boss?

People need to accept the consequence of their actions. Missing graduation does not strike me as that serious of a consequence. He can put on the cap and gown and mommy can take his photo.

I deal with these people in the workplace all the time.

He sounds to me like a Paris Hilton in training...

LOL What?

So if the school called you up and said your child did this and that and this and that..... you wouldn't set up any kind of meeting with the teacher or principal to discuss the issues at hand? No one ever said the mother was trying to get the child out of punishment.... she was trying to see if there was a more appropriate punishment for the crime..... from what I can tell that is what makes your child YOUR child... YOU should deal with their issues and not just leave the teachers hanging out in the wind to deal with their issues and say "Oh well his problems are his own" Now that in no way suggests you should try to get your child out of any and all punishment but I definitely think a parent should be very active in their childs school life and punishment.

After 18 their mistakes are their own.... before 18 (mature or not) their mistakes are still your responsibility so you should do whatever you can to get to the bottom of their behaviour. Did the mother go about it the right way? Maybe she did maybe she didn't... we weren't at the meeting. But to say she was just trying to get him out of paying any consequences is a little presumptuous wouldn't you say?

[CagneyDog]

Actually it would do nothing to put a damper on his future. He will still get his diploma, probably mailed to him. He just can't go to the actual ceremony at the school and get it in public. He wasn't denied graduating, just going to the ceremony.

Oh! Sorry, I didn't catch that. Well that totally changes things, doesn't it!

[lizbud]

After 18 their mistakes are their own.... before 18 (mature or not) their mistakes are still your responsibility so you should do whatever you can to get to the bottom of their behaviour. Did the mother go about it the right way? Maybe she did maybe she didn't... we weren't at the meeting. But to say she was just trying to get him out of paying any consequences is a little presumptuous wouldn't you say?


Graduation ceramonies are not the place to get into why the child
acted the way they did, it's a time for them to show their maturity and
decent manners at a public function. The time for learning how to act
in public has long passed by the age of 17 or18.

And I think it's a pretty safe assumpion to think the mother would do
anything she could to "protect" her child from being denied participation
in the public ceremony.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

PM- You seem to be taking this thread pretty personally. I am not sure why, but, of course, you can. I really don't see the same "everyone keeps saying this...", or "I always see the belittling comments..." or any of the other over generalizing statments you are making. I have read the thread twice, in its entirety.

I shouldn't have to single anyone out- I'm not trying to point fingers, I am merely saying that if you look through many threads, especially in the dog house where there tend to be heated discussions, people quite consistently, if subtly, dismiss the opinions of younger people when they happen to be discordant with their own.


Frankly, I don't see "check back in 10 years.." in quite the inflammatory way that you do. I think most of us would agree our perspectives do change over time. Is that good, bad or evil, I don't know. I would not go so far as to call it a 'fact' that people mature over time, but, certainly, it isn't a fictional statment, either.

You are on one hand suggesting that people change in their lifetimes, but also saying that people NOW are more disrespectful then people in the past. It is true, life is full of change. Society changes. Why shouldn't people change? People are so ready to accept changes that they agree with (faster cars, computers, new conveniences) but expect people to remain the same. Why should teenagers today be the same as teenagers 40 or 60 years ago? And how were they really any better? Maybe kids of the 1940's were model citizens, I couldn't tell you. But, there were a lot of other problems in the world- worse ones, so far as I can tell (such as discrimination of minorities and women, world war, etc.). Expecting people to stay the same while the world changes is silly.

And the "check back in ten years" comment IS inflammatory. For one thing, it's something that will never come to be. No one is actually going to revisit this thread in 10 or 15 years. It's designed to point out how the person commenting has something that the other person does not- a certain age. And it's intended to point out the discrepancies between the older person's supposed knowledge and the younger one's. All in all, I think it's only a phrase used when the poster has no actual logical argument, or does not feel they have to answer to some one younger than themselves, and is designed to insult and humiliate.


I never know how to respond to someone that says something along the lines of, "well, all the adults I know are immature, and the kids have WAY more common sense then them", other than: change your friends. I see people from all walks of life, daily. I can say, without impunity, the adults tend to be WAY more mature than the younger set. Dunno. Maybe it is my perception?

Sure, most adults know how to go to work each day and get by, but that doesn't mean they have any common sense. Why would so many kids have all of these problems if their parents were mature role models? Most likely, they wouldn't. How could incidents like Columbine happen if parents (the mature ones, remember?) were more aware of their children's activities. I mean, who lets their teen have access to assault rifles? I am not blaming the parents, because clearly there were a lot of factors involved. But because adults are the guardians of young people means they should be more responsible, and in many cases I just don't see it.


I don't know what decade I grew up in. I was born in 1965. So, I guess it would be the 70s. I am not sure what history books I read, and what accounts they provided. Seeminly, I would have read the same ones you did. I would hardly lump the civil rights movement, any anti-war movement, and the anti-establishment groups in with an individual gluing two trays together in a school cafeteria. Just doesn't seem like these groups were fighting the same fight, you know what I mean?

Well, there were certainly times when people fought the "good fight" in the 60's. But there was also a widespread culture of distrust and disrespect towards authority that had more to do with coolness than it did social justice.


I guess it depends on how you define violent crime. I never saw Columbine like activity before Columbine. I never saw young defendants like I see now, routinely- in the news, in the jails, in the courts. I have never seen the child snatchings, the child murders, like we have seen in the last ten years.

Just because you haven't "seen" it, doesn't mean that it's fact. The media reports more than ever before, and we have access to it 24/7. It's unfortunate if more and more young people are becoming victims and criminals (though I would prefer to see actual statistics rather than anecdotal evidence), but maybe they are simply having to grow up faster. Young people have access to the same information we do, and good or bad, times change.


If, as you claim, the teachers don't even have the time to make sure the students are looking up the answers, what makes you think the teachers have the time to write the correct answers down for thier kids? Time is time. I still don't buy the theory, "the teacher takes the heat, the kids gets the pass". It isn't a theory that will take them very far IRL. As you say, you work with children and teens all the time. Certainly, you don't advocate the "well, if the teacher didn't do it for you, you are free to ignore that information".

I already said I do not advocate that- I think schools today DO get blamed for more then their fair share of things, though. And I think the current administration's education policy makes it very difficult for teachers to teach ideally.


Finally, it is that double standard. If teens have this 'right' to express their views (of course, I agree), then, adults enjoy that same right. I just don't see all this belittling stuff you are speaking of. Maybe I just read the wrong threads.
Of course everyone can express themselves. Maybe you don't see the belittling part because you think that older members have more to contribute than younger ones- and you agree with sentiments like "I know more than you, I am 20 years older, and one day you will agree with me because I am right."

[lizbud]

I graduated from parochial high school 24 years ago. (24 years ago June 10th, in fact. :) ) You could get in serious trouble really fast if you said or did anything disrespectful, not just to the teachers or principal, but to the librarian, office staff, bus drivers, custodians, basically any adult. Sometimes I wonder how I would get through high school if I were a student now. My sister-in-law teaches middle school and from the stories she tells I think things are just a lot different for kids. The Internet, media, the role of families and the function of a family in a child's life, things have just changed a lot. It seems to me that life just moves faster now than it did when I was in high school in the early '80s. I don't know if that is really possible, but it sure seems that way to me.

Edited to ask: Could it be that the expectations placed on kids are just different? Or, were my parents just tougher on discipline than the parents of today? I don't know. I can tell you I was a kid who toed the line and never took a risk. Even now, at 40, I'm risk-averse. Back then I wouldn't have dared to glue the trays together out of fear of the consequences.

You make some excellent points here. :) I do believe less is expected from
kids today as opposed to say, 25 years ago.

[caseysmom]

I disagree lizbud. My kids homework and schoolwork is leaps and bounds more than I ever had, and we both attended/attend public schools.

My daughter is a freshman taking algebra 2, I never got that far, not even close. Believe me they have to do a lot more in school than I ever did to get by.

[mugsy]

The kid needs to shut up and deal with the consequences. He did wrong, plain and simple. They didn't press charges. He missing walking with his class...he will live.

As far as school work goes...while they are moving faster for sure, but, it's very watered down...the bar is far lower. When I graduated in 1980, I graduated with a 93% average and it was a middle of the road "B+", now it's a solid "A". 75% was the lowest passing grade and for some teachers now, it's 60%...and still almost 1/2 the kids flunk because they are flat out too lazy to do the work...and they will tell you that proudly. I'm just sick to death of the disrespect and the "I am all important" attitudes that prevail in today's schools. Almost to the point of throwing in the towel and telling someone else to deal with them. Don't get me wrong, I love what I do and most of the kids I see everyday, but, the others make me wonder...

[caseysmom]

The work my daughter does doesn't seem watered down to me, in fact it makes me feel plain stupid :D

[sparks19]

And I think it's a pretty safe assumpion to think the mother would do
anything she could to "protect" her child from being denied participation
in the public ceremony.


But to assume that she just wants him out of any punishment at all just because she is trying to get him back into graduation and pay his price in other ways is just... well... silly to me.

Tell me that as a mother you would just pass up the opportunity to see your son walk in graduation without at least TRYING to get him a different punishment like paying the cost and volunteering in the cafeteria cleaning all the trays etc etc. I do NOT in any way, shape or form think that makes her a bad mother at all nor do I think that is allowing her child to get away with his crime without punishment. Trying to get her son back into graduation does not mean she doesn't want him to pay the consequences.... nor does it mean that she will run to his rescue if he screws up in "the real world" whatever that is.

and it is never too late to be a parent ;) My father STILL tries to tell me what is and isn't good for me to eat and tell me how I should spend my money etc etc (even though this man survives on sausages and baloney sandwiches lol I don't think he is in any position to tell me how to eat haha) Parents are parents whether you are 2 or 20 or 90.

[Lady's Human]

Once the school handed out the punishment, I would tell the teenager to suck it up, be glad that's all it is, and deal with it, which is pretty much what my parents would have told me.

[lizbud]

I disagree lizbud. My kids homework and schoolwork is leaps and bounds more than I ever had, and we both attended/attend public schools.

My daughter is a freshman taking algebra 2, I never got that far, not even close. Believe me they have to do a lot more in school than I ever did to get by.


Oh, I wasn't talking educational development, I mean emotional growth.
personal interaction with other people, that sort of thing.

[caseysmom]

Oh, I wasn't talking educational development, I mean emotional growth.
personal interaction with other people, that sort of thing.

I know...don't get me wrong I want to strangle one of mine 90 percent of the time but my other daughter is a complete hard working respectful kid, it just depends and they have the same parent so don't blame it on me :D

[sparks19]

I know...don't get me wrong I want to strangle one of mine 90 percent of the time but my other daughter is a complete hard working respectful kid, it just depends and they have the same parent so don't blame it on me :D


it is true.... sometimes parenting just is NOT enough. YOu can drill it into their brains and teach them and teach them but eventually they will develop their own personalities and if what you taught doesn't fit in with that.... they just go their own way. Like in your case..... they have two totally different personalities so they will react to your teachings in a completely different way. and some kids will just rebel no matter what you teach them. Some of them just need the fear of God to straighten them out :D lol

[buttercup132]

Pembroke_Corgi, I completley agree with what you have said and that's how I feel. It just always comes out wrong when I say it.

I hate when people say "back when I was young..". Were not back when you were young so stop trying to make it that way. Alot of you are also saying how you did stupid things when you were younger so why are you bashing the teenagers of now that do stupid things?

And I really don't think your generations had that much more respect for authorities.I have parents who were in that generation too and people in my family who taught in some of your generations so I've herd my share of stories about how bad some kids were. Obviously some had respect but they do now too.

[lizbud]

Why should teenagers today be the same as teenagers 40 or 60 years ago? And how were they really any better? Maybe kids of the 1940's were model citizens, I couldn't tell you. But, there were a lot of other problems in the world- worse ones, so far as I can tell (such as discrimination of minorities and women, world war, etc.). Expecting people to stay the same while the world changes is silly.

Of course everyone can express themselves. Maybe you don't see the belittling part because you think that older members have more to contribute than younger ones- and you agree with sentiments like "I know more than you, I am 20 years older, and one day you will agree with me because I am right."

Teenagers today are no are different than they ever were. They the same
because they are at the same stage of development mentally & phsically.
Teenagers and adults will never act or think the same way about anything.
Well, very seldom) Their brains are at different levels of development. In
medical studies they call the" teenage brain" a work in progress. No
insult intended here, that's just the way it is.


http://www.edutopia.org/inside-teenage-brain


or http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Teachers/brain.html

[caseysmom]

Teenagers today are no are different than they ever were. They the same
because they are at the same stage of development mentally & phsically.
Teenagers and adults will never act or think the same way about anything.
Well, very seldom) Their brains are at different levels of development. In
medical studies they call the" teenage brain" a work in progress. No
insult intended here, that's just the way it is.


http://www.edutopia.org/inside-teenage-brain


or http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Teachers/brain.html

Okay I do completely agree with all of that and if it makes any of the teens feel better the teen body does not hurt as much as the old body :)

[Edwina's Secretary]

the teen body does not hurt as much as the old body :)

Amen sister, amen!

[Barbara]

MEIN GOTT! :eek:

One language magazine asked its readers to supply examples of German words going into foreign languages. This would be a new example ;)

BTW Germans would just with the same ironic accent say "Oh my god!" :D

[Lady's Human]

Barbara, two years in Germany tends to twist one's vocabulary.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Dios mios....back in my day...I took calculus in high school...

Do you know there are some societies that VALUE the knowledge acquired in life?

This makes me think of a story. My brother, who is 2 years older than me...had just gotten his driver's license. He told my mother that he was a better driver than she...because he had faster reflexes. She said she was the better driver because she had the wisdom and experience to avoid situations where she needed faster reflexes.