Words well spoken...Recieved in Email

[DrKym]

I found this a very Good read I have a question what if your son or daughter / grand kids / nephews and nieces were to just pray in a classroom quietly by themselves what would happen?
makes you wonder
would they be asked to leave class? but someone with a gun or knife stays.. sad
pray for our kids,,,,thanks everyone(not my intro this was email is reprinted in its' entirety)

DARRELL SCOTT TESTIMONY

Guess our national leaders didn't expect this, hmm? On
Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a
victim of the Columbine High School shootings in
Littleton , Colorado , was invited to address the Ho
use Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said
to our national leaders during this special session of
Congress was painfully truthful.

They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was
it received well. It needs to be heard by every
parent, every teacher, every politician, every
sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called
expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott
are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There
is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying
in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the
transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good &
evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain
the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The
death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and
the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other
eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their
blood cries out for answers.

"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew
his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not
the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the
National Club Association. The true kil ler was Cain,
and the reason for the murder could only be found in
Cain's heart.

"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I
was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed
at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the
NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am
not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I
don't believe that they are responsible for my
daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they
need to be defended. If I believed they had anything
to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest
opponent.

I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just
a tragedy -- it was a spiritual event that should be
forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much
of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame
lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers
themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that
expresses my feelings best. This was written way
before I knew I would be speaking here today:


Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist
of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to
acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a
void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush
in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present
within our educational
systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our
major colleges began as theological seminaries. This
is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a
nati on? We have refused to honor God, and in so
doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And
when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy
occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat
such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more
restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our
personal and private liberties. We do not need more
restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would not have been
stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can
stop someone who spends months planning this type of
massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.

"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school
library and saw his two friends murder ed before his
very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I
defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I
challenge every young person in America , and around
the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999 , at
Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our
schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those
students be in vain. Dare to move into the new
millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation
that violates your God-given right to communicate with
Him. To those of you who would point your finger at
the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to
examine your
own heart before casting the first stone!
My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young
people of this country will not allow that to happen!"

Do what the media did not - - let the nation hear this
man's speech.. Please send this out to everyone you
can.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Prayer isn't banned in schools. The teacher can't TEACH religion in public schools, or lead a prayer, but students can pray if they want to....

I don't understand why people are against seperating church and state, I guess they are just too egocentric to understand that not everyone has the same belief system. :rolleyes:

[JenBKR]

Beautiful! I loved it, thanks for sharing. It is sad when someone can't express their own feelings in this, a free country.

To those who think that prayer isn't banned in public schools, talk to some kids who have tried to pray to themselves in their school. You might be shocked by what they have to say. I know a few stories surprised me........

[Prairie Purrs]

There is no ban on individual prayer in public schools. There is nothing to prevent kids from saying grace before lunch, from seeking divine intervention on an algebra test, etc. A student who is prevented from praying has legal recourse--keeping in mind that schools have a right to prevent students from doing anything, including praying, in a disruptive manner.

For those who want to see state-sponsored prayer in public schools (for example, requiring all students to pray in unison at school assemblies), I'd ask, whose prayer should they be required to say? If you're Baptist, how would you feel if all public school students were required to say a Hail Mary at the beginning of the school day? What if a Buddhist principal implements mandatory zazen? A Christian parent has no more right to force my (hypothetical) kid to say a Christian prayer than I have to force that parent's kid to take part in a Samhain ritual.

The First Amendment's dual prohibition against government interference with individual practice of religion and government establishment of religion is a brilliant innovation. Too many people only see half of the equation and would happily overturn the Establishment Clause. One would think that examples such as Iran would clearly illustrate that theocracy is an undesirable form of government.

[lizbud]

I think everyone here whoever faced a tough math test in school didn't
stop class time to say a prayer to pass the test.They just did it. Prayer isn't
banned, but a public school teacher cannot lead a class in any one prayer.

I think it's simplistic to believe that prayers in school would change the
culture.

[wombat2u2004]

Got that one a day or so ago in my mail to.
It certainly does hit the mark....hey ???
Wom

[wombat2u2004]

WHAT A WAKEUP!

Dear God:

Why didn't you save the school children at ?.

Virginia Tech 04/16/07

Amish Country, PA

Wisconsin

Columbine High School

Moses Lake , Washington 2/2/96

Bethel , Alaska 2/19/97!

Pearl , Mississippi 10/1/97

West Paducah , Kentucky 12/1/97

Stam! p, Arkansas 12/15/97

Jonesboro , Arkansas 3/24/98

Edinboro , Pennsylvania 4/24/98

Fayetteville , Tennessee 5/19/98

Springfield , Oregon 5/21/98

Richmond , Virginia 6/15/98

Littleton , Colorado 4/20/99

Taber , Alberta , Canada 5/28/99

Conyers , Georgia 5/20/99

Deming , New Mexico 11/19/99

Fort Gibson , Oklahoma 12/6/99

Santee , California 3/ 5/01 and

El Cajon , California 3/22/01?

Sincerely,

Concerned Student

-----------------------------------------------------

Reply:

Dear Concerned Student:

I am not allowed in schools.

Sincerely,

God

----------------------------------------------------------

How did this get started?...

-----------------

Let's see,

I think it started when Madeline Murray O'Hare complained

she didn't want any prayer in our schools.

And we said, OK..

------------------

Then ,

someone said you better not read the Bible in school,

the Bible that says

"thou shalt! not kill,

thou shalt not steal,

and love your neighbors as yourself,"

And we said, OK...

-----------------

Dr. Benjamin Spock said

we shouldn't spank our children

when they misbehaved

because their little personalities

would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem.

And we said,

an expert should know what he's talking about

so we won't spank them anymore..

------------------

Then someone said

teachers and principals better not

discipline our children when they misbehave.

And the school administrators said

no faculty member in this school

better touch a student when they misbehave

because we don't want any bad publicity,

and we surely don't want to be sued.

And we accepted their reasoning...

------------------

Then someone said,

let's let our daughters have abortions if they want,

and they won't even have to tell their parents.

And we said, that's a grand idea...

------------------

Then some wise school board member said,

since boys will be boys

and they're going to do it anyway,

let's give our sons all the condoms they want,

so they can have all the fun they desire,

and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school.

And we said, that's another great idea...

------------------

Then some of our top elected officials said

it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs.

And we said,

it doesn't matter what anybody,

including the President,

does in private as long as we have jobs and the economy is good....

------------------

And someone else took that appreciation a step further

and published pictures of nude children

and then stepped further still by

making them available on the Internet.

And we said, everyone's entitled to free speech....

------------------

And the entertainment industry said,

let's make TV shows and movies that promote

profanity, violence and illicit sex...

And let's record music that encourages

rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes...

And we said,

it's just entertainment

and it has no adverse effect

and nobody takes it seriously anyway,

so go right ahead.

------------------

Now we're asking ourselves

why our children have no conscience,

why they don't know right from wrong,

! and why it doesn't bother them to

kill strangers, classmates or even themselves.

------------------

Undoubtedly,

if we thought about it long and hard enough,

we could figure it out.

I'm sure it has a great deal to do with...

"WE REAP WHAT WE SOW,"

------------------

[mugsy]

We have a moment of silence, to be used how ever the students want to use it, every morning and then we say the Pledge (now keep in mind that I have ONE student out of 24 that will say it and it's like pulling teeth to get them to even look at the flag (another rant for another time). I don't care how people use that time and if they have quiet time, do as you please with your mind. I only get angry when any group shoves their beliefs (or lack thereof) down my throat....and that's why I believe open prayer in school should not be allowed...we still have separation of church and state...

The other thing...everyone is so ready to jump on the schools for being responsibile for the shootings...what happened to the families?? At what point do families become responsible for what is happening? As a teacher, I can promise you that even in the last 12 years of me teaching with a contract, the students have changed. They have become lazier, less responsible for their actions, less caring about their fellow living beings, and far more expecting that society is supposed to take care of them and they don't need to do anything except have the government support them...where does that come from? All of those things are what cause these kids to do what they do in schools. Ok, I'll shut up now! lol

[sparks19]

I like that Wombat. :D

I had to take a Taxi home yesterday and I can't remember how we got on the subject but we were talking about kids these days.....

The cab driver said "Kids are born crazy..... it's the parents job to straighten them out." lol he was joking (sorta) but I like that :D Today they have taken all responsibility off of the parents.... off of anyone really. Your child is misbehaving? he must have a disorder of some kind.... it's not his fault he can't behave.... he needs to be pumped full of drugs to help him behave. NO HE NEEDS A SWIFT KICK IN THE BUTT to help him behave.

Just like kids can't play dodgeball and tag in school anymore because it's a game of exclusion and it singles out the weaker kids and their feelings get hurt and it's not fair..... WELL life isn't fair.... how does any of that prepare them for when they get into the real world and HAVE to face disappointment. and they wonder why kids suddenly snap when they are expected to be responsible for themselves when no one ever taught them to be responsible..... when they grew up with sunshine and puppies and no one ever lost and no one ever won and everyone was equal. Suddenly they are thrown into real life where someone DOES win and someone DOES lose and things aren't always fair and equal and hunky dorey. and I don't know about you.... but tag never made me feel like an outcast or feel excluded or hurt my feelings. it was a game.... sometimes you win and sometimes you lose but it's still fun. And that is not the schools fault that they aren't allowed to help prepare kids for life..... heck even parents aren't expected to do that anymore.

Can you even say the pledge of allegience in schools anymore?

"everything I need to know about life I learned in Kindergarten" That used to be true.... not anymore.


EDIT: Mugsy.... excellent post.

[finn's mom]

This is an interesting thread. I'll keep reading it as people keep posting. And, just as a side note, I hated games like tag and dodgeball, I always felt small and meek and left out. I was always the last person chosen. The main reason for it was because I am physically small and I was also always the youngest in my class. But, honestly, that is part of growing up. I think it's ridiculous that they completely banned those sports from schools. With the obesity in children today, I'd be adding more sports, not taking them out.

As for prayers in schools, I'm all for "moment of silence" to pray or not pray to whatever God(s) you choose.

[lizbud]

I'll keep reading it as people keep posting. And, just as a side note, I hated games like tag and dodgeball, I always felt small and meek and left out. I was always the last person chosen. The main reason for it was because I am physically small and I was also always the youngest in my class. But, honestly, that is part of growing up.



I loved those school yard games, probably because I was very good
at them. :D

[sparks19]

This is an interesting thread. I'll keep reading it as people keep posting. And, just as a side note, I hated games like tag and dodgeball, I always felt small and meek and left out. I was always the last person chosen. The main reason for it was because I am physically small and I was also always the youngest in my class. But, honestly, that is part of growing up. I think it's ridiculous that they completely banned those sports from schools. With the obesity in children today, I'd be adding more sports, not taking them out.

As for prayers in schools, I'm all for "moment of silence" to pray or not pray to whatever God(s) you choose.

Good point. While schools can't and shouldn't be blamed for obesity..... school might be the only time those kids get any exercise and won't just be sitting in front of the TV.

Seems funny how schools are doing the parents jobs..... getting the kids outside, schools offering lunches (when I was in elementary we didn't have a cafeteria.... your parents had to pack a lunch and if they didn't the school called to find out why you didn't have a lunch), and they have to be the disciplinarians.... and then it's the schools that get blamed for a childs behaviour.

[DrKym]

I really wasn't aiming this thread at schools, I was more moved by this mans humble and forgiving nature, and the fact that he refused to blame any one thing for the tradegy that befall him and many others. That he in a very inoffensive but very powerful way placed the blame on the shoulders of the families of the shooter, and the people we charge to value our children.

It is not the responsibility of our schools to raise our children, or to instill the values and morals we want to instill in them, although sadly this is often true for many children. It is our responsibility to be aware and to help one another to care and love our youth enough to become involved, even if it makes others uncomfortable. I as a parent would want to know if an adult that I have placed my childs education and welfare in their hands had observations or information , especially if it was of a nature that will be detrimental to my childs' mental or emotional health, or his safety. In that regards I do not believe my child has any "rights", I believe that as his parent, my rights to ensure his well being trump any he may or may not have.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

I think there are some parents who are too afraid to instil any discipline in their children at an early age which lets the little darlings think they can do and say exactly what they want.

This may be out of guilt because parents are working and try to make it up to junior by giving them a free rein or that some parents just don't have clue due to their own upbringing.

I'm not going to start calling for national service or corporal punishment but I do think the children should learn their place in society and learn to respect the adults around them and the rules they should be set. Their time will come.

My Katie is 17 and thoroughly spoilt but she knows the difference between right and wrong and has the self confidence not to follow the crowd

[Edwina's Secretary]

I really wasn't aiming this thread at schools, I was more moved by this mans humble and forgiving nature, and the fact that he refused to blame any one thing for the tradegy that befall him and many others. That he in a very inoffensive but very powerful way placed the blame on the shoulders of the families of the shooter, and the people we charge to value our children.



I saw nothing inoffenisve about it. To say "he refused to blame any one thing" is at best...disingenuous

He says...
it was a spiritual event that should be
forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much
of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame
lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers
themselves.

That sounds like blaming to me.

I look at the list of school shooting above and they all have one thing in common. GUNS...

Some insist that because the constitution says...A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms...there can be no restrictions on firearms...cop-killer bullets...rapid fire...automatics....

Yet...other rights...freedom from search and siezure...freedom of speech can be regulated and abridged.

The Supreme Court has ruled the government can regulate some speech...you cannot yell fire in a crowded theater.

What can't the government set limits on firearms in the same manner?

I would feel more safe knowing there were no semi-automatics in the school than knowing the teacher has lead all the children in reciting the Lord's prayer.

[sparks19]

I think there are some parents who are too afraid to instil any discipline in their children at an early age which lets the little darlings think they can do and say exactly what they want.

This may be out of guilt because parents are working and try to make it up to junior by giving them a free rein or that some parents just don't have clue due to their own upbringing.

I'm not going to start calling for national service or corporal punishment but I do think the children should learn their place in society and learn to respect the adults around them and the rules they should be set. Their time will come.

My Katie is 17 and thoroughly spoilt but she knows the difference between right and wrong and has the self confidence not to follow the crowd


OH of course not.... it's cute when they are toddlers to hear them tell their elders to shut up...... or they flip the bird. "Oh he doesn't know what it means... it's harmless" Yeah well eventually that toddler will grow into an adult and still think it is ok and the norm to behave this way.

There is a difference between spoiling your children and not disciplining them. I must say as a child I was pretty spoiled..... but I was still punished for doing wrong. I got my fair share of whacks on the butt lol.... and that started when I was a toddler. it was never accepted.... and after that I never even had to be grounded until I was 16 and that grounding was all based on a lie by my sister (long story but she's a nut case lol). I didn't want to misbehave (not to say I didn't have my fair share of temper tantrums or things of that sort but I never stayed out passed curfew, stole or any of that stuff) because I knew I would face the consequences..... and because I made my own decision to do the right things for the most part I was allowed to be very independant as a preteen.

Another thing I learned from playing school yard games..... sure I got upset if someone wasn't "playing by the rules" or I didn't get my way. But I learned that pouting and throwing a tantrum resulted in.... NOTHING. lol no one cared if you didn't like how the game was going or if it wasn't "fair" to you lol.... you were left to pout and throw your tantrum and they just continued the game without you. I don't throw tantrums anymore hahaha they don't work. :D

[Puckstop31]

I look at the list of school shooting above and they all have one thing in common. GUNS...

Some insist that because the constitution says...A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms...there can be no restrictions on firearms...cop-killer bullets...rapid fire...automatics....

Yet...other rights...freedom from search and siezure...freedom of speech can be regulated and abridged.

The Supreme Court has ruled the government can regulate some speech...you cannot yell fire in a crowded theater.

What can't the government set limits on firearms in the same manner?

I would feel more safe knowing there were no semi-automatics in the school than knowing the teacher has lead all the children in reciting the Lord's prayer.

There are restrictions on automatic weapons and certain types of ammunition. The problem is criminals don't care about laws.

You mention the government placing limits on firearms. What kind of limits? There are, IMHO, already more than enough gun control laws on the books. How about we enforce the laws that are already in place before we give the government even more power over us?

Finally, do not forget the real reason the founding fathers put the 2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights in the first place. They believed, as I do, that the government should fear the people not the people fear the government. I am not willing to give up the right to simply feel more "secure".

I promise you that draconian gun control laws is going to what starts the next revolution in this country. When they come for our guns, its time to vote from the rooftops. If the government wants to make me a criminal simply because I own guns, so be it. Who will fight for the government when half of the police and probably even more of the military will be on the side of freedom?

Society is the problem, lack of respect for each other, lack of common courtesy, lack of consequences for actions, lack of discipline... Not an inanimate object.

[sparks19]

Society is the problem, lack of respect for each other, lack of common courtesy, lack of consequences for actions, lack of discipline... Not an inanimate object.

That and lack of parenting.

How many children these days are given toy guns to play with? What kind of message does that send to your children? it is OK to use guns as a toy...... then you tell them that "real" guns are not a toy. How come one gun is a toy and one gun is NOT a toy. Education..... education..... education. TEACH them about guns. Dont give them a toy gun to "play" with and then tell them they can't touch a real gun and then hide it from them with no explanation. They need to learn respect..... respect for the weapon.... respect for people.... and respect for themselves.

EDUCATION.... starting at home and THEN education continuing on throughout life.... in schools.... in sports.... everywhere. But the bottom line.... the parents are responsible for them and their actions until they are adults.... but the education should not stop then. I know I am still learning lots of things..... I'm sure everyone is.

Although I do like that saying "Teenagers should move out into the world while they still know everything" I remember the "I know everything" phase haha I was quickly humbled out of that phase :D

[wombat2u2004]

There are restrictions on automatic weapons and certain types of ammunition. The problem is criminals don't care about laws.

You mention the government placing limits on firearms. What kind of limits? There are, IMHO, already more than enough gun control laws on the books. How about we enforce the laws that are already in place before we give the government even more power over us?

Finally, do not forget the real reason the founding fathers put the 2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights in the first place. They believed, as I do, that the government should fear the people not the people fear the government. I am not willing to give up the right to simply feel more "secure".

I promise you that draconian gun control laws is going to what starts the next revolution in this country. When they come for our guns, its time to vote from the rooftops. If the government wants to make me a criminal simply because I own guns, so be it. Who will fight for the government when half of the police and probably even more of the military will be on the side of freedom?

Society is the problem, lack of respect for each other, lack of common courtesy, lack of consequences for actions, lack of discipline... Not an inanimate object.

You can't just disarm the public because some whacko goes nuts. The public have the right to defend themselves, and therefore the right to bear firearms.
Lets face it, even if the public was disarmed, the criminals still seem to access weapons no problem....it's happened here in Australia....we have tough gun control laws, we in the public are now disarmed......STILL we have the criminals out there who access weapons.
Yes, society is to blame.
Wom

[wombat2u2004]

[QUOTE=Dr.Goodnow]I really wasn't aiming this thread at schools, I was more moved by this mans humble and forgiving nature, and the fact that he refused to blame any one thing for the tradegy that befall him and many others. That he in a very inoffensive but very powerful way placed the blame on the shoulders of the families of the shooter, and the people we charge to value our children.

Sorry if I took this discussion of yours on a little tangent Doc. But I received that post and the one you posted about the same time here, seems to me that they are both sort of linked. ;)
Wom

[lizbud]

There are restrictions on automatic weapons and certain types of ammunition. The problem is criminals don't care about laws.

You mention the government placing limits on firearms. What kind of limits? There are, IMHO, already more than enough gun control laws on the books. How about we enforce the laws that are already in place before we give the government even more power over us?




What current restrictions on there on automatic weapons? Do you mean
in the size of the clip people can use? I think gun control is more necessary
now. Gun control does not mean no guns sold, it should mean no more
assault weapons shoud be sold in gun stores. There is no need for anyone
to have half the auto weapons now available for sale. IMO

[DrKym]

[QUOTE=Dr.Goodnow]I really wasn't aiming this thread at schools, I was more moved by this mans humble and forgiving nature, and the fact that he refused to blame any one thing for the tradegy that befall him and many others. That he in a very inoffensive but very powerful way placed the blame on the shoulders of the families of the shooter, and the people we charge to value our children.

Sorry if I took this discussion of yours on a little tangent Doc. But I received that post and the one you posted about the same time here, seems to me that they are both sort of linked. ;)
Wom
No worries mate! :p

[Lady's Human]

The LEGAL acquisition of a fully automatic firearm is an arduous, expensive proposition.

Step 1: Apply for a federal class III permit. Be prepared to fill out more paperwork than you have to fill out for a high level security clearance. Make sure no one has ever said anything negative about you to any law enforcement official.Anyone at any level of the permit process can deny the permit.

Step 2: Assuming you have the permit, find a dealer. If the dealer doesn't know you, be prepared to show damned near every piece of ID you have ever been issued to prove that you are who you say you are. Once the dealer is assured that you are actually a legal purchaser, they might deal with you. Make sure you bring plenty of cash, though. A fully automatic weapon will cost you anywhere from $5000 (For a junky little MAC-10 ) up to $50-75000 for a vintage browning machine gun.

There are currently restrictions on "armor piercing" bullets. (A misnomer, armor piercing performance has far more to do with bullet shape and speed than material)

There are federal bans against people with a history of mental illness owning firearms.

There are over 22,000 gun laws on the books. We don't need more laws. We need enforcement of the ones in place.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

The cab driver said "Kids are born crazy..... it's the parents job to straighten them out." lol he was joking (sorta) but I like that :D Today they have taken all responsibility off of the parents.... off of anyone really. Your child is misbehaving? he must have a disorder of some kind.... it's not his fault he can't behave.... he needs to be pumped full of drugs to help him behave. NO HE NEEDS A SWIFT KICK IN THE BUTT to help him behave.

Just like kids can't play dodgeball and tag in school anymore because it's a game of exclusion and it singles out the weaker kids and their feelings get hurt and it's not fair..... WELL life isn't fair.... how does any of that prepare them for when they get into the real world and HAVE to face disappointment. and they wonder why kids suddenly snap when they are expected to be responsible for themselves when no one ever taught them to be responsible..... when they grew up with sunshine and puppies and no one ever lost and no one ever won and everyone was equal. Suddenly they are thrown into real life where someone DOES win and someone DOES lose and things aren't always fair and equal and hunky dorey. and I don't know about you.... but tag never made me feel like an outcast or feel excluded or hurt my feelings. it was a game.... sometimes you win and sometimes you lose but it's still fun. And that is not the schools fault that they aren't allowed to help prepare kids for life..... heck even parents aren't expected to do that anymore.

Can you even say the pledge of allegience in schools anymore?

"everything I need to know about life I learned in Kindergarten" That used to be true.... not anymore.

I was one of those well-behaved children. I was obedient, polite, and quiet. I received straight A's and my teachers all loved me. I never once received a detention, or ever came close. Was I happy? Of course not, my father was a classic authoritarian parent and I was simply conditioned to behave that way. I would take a happy, normal child any day and I think that people who talk about "kids these days" are simply glossing over their own childhoods or are completely out of touch with kids.

I work with kids every single day and I can tell you that they are not anything like what I would think hearing some people describe them. They are fun to be around, and frankly they have minds of their own and don't need to be programmed like robots to think exactly what their parents think. Chances are, if parents are good role models the kids will pick up on that anyway, and they certainly don't need to be "kicked in the butt."

I also think that it's a good thing that exclusionary games are being removed from schools. Life is NEVER "sunshine and puppies" no matter what. But, why would you ever set your child up for disappointment if you could avoid it? That doesn't make sense to me, but then again neither does saying that all we really need is a kindergarten education. Guess I just wasted about 17 years of my life then, huh?

[sparks19]

I was one of those well-behaved children. I was obedient, polite, and quiet. I received straight A's and my teachers all loved me. I never once received a detention, or ever came close. Was I happy? Of course not, my father was a classic authoritarian parent and I was simply conditioned to behave that way. I would take a happy, normal child any day and I think that people who talk about "kids these days" are simply glossing over their own childhoods or are completely out of touch with kids.

I work with kids every single day and I can tell you that they are not anything like what I would think hearing some people describe them. They are fun to be around, and frankly they have minds of their own and don't need to be programmed like robots to think exactly what their parents think. Chances are, if parents are good role models the kids will pick up on that anyway, and they certainly don't need to be "kicked in the butt."

I also think that it's a good thing that exclusionary games are being removed from schools. Life is NEVER "sunshine and puppies" no matter what. But, why would you ever set your child up for disappointment if you could avoid it? That doesn't make sense to me, but then again neither does saying that all we really need is a kindergarten education. Guess I just wasted about 17 years of my life then, huh?

Well I didn't have an authoritative parent. I was happy as a child. I was just taught from the beginning that my actions had consequences. i was allowed to make my own decision but I was always told that making the wrong decision could result in consequences and those consequences were enforced. Doesn't mean my parents were strict or authoritative. There is a balance between teaching your kids right and wrong and being overbearing and overly strict. My parents were not strict..... they just made the rules very clear. I had to be home by curfew.... and I was. by no means what I a straight A student.... but I didn't steal, I didn't beat up other kids, I didn't run away from home, etc etc. children need a good balance of family, love and discipline. AND NEVER discipline while angry and after the punishment is doled out always sit down with your child and TALK about WHY they are being punished and always end with an "I love you very much". You don't have to beat your kids into submission or keep them under lock and key. Just teach them the rules from a very young age.... teach them respect..... compassion.... love.... and understanding. Discipline and following the rules is not programming them to believe what their parents believe..... telling a child they have to be home by 9 is not programming, telling them they have to be in bed by ten is not programming, telling them they have to eat some vegetables is not programming. They are RULEs. Everyone has rules, everyone has to follow rules, children included. AND they need to be given responsibilities in order to learn responsibility. My brother wouldn't let his kids be home alone after school when they were 14. I was babysitting when i was 11 (of course it was different times and there is more to worry about now) Kids need to earn trust.... and with trust comes freedom and responsibility. My mom trusted me because I didn't betray her trust, I was given a lot of freedom because I earned it. Was I a perfect child? HECK no lol. I had ATTITUDE and lots of it. Did I get away with back talk? no i didn't. but I still slammed my bedroom door and threw my tantrums lol.... but when it came to the big stuff, I could be trusted and I earned that. and that was a great feeling for me knowing that I had that freedom and I worked hard to get it.

Setting up your kid for disappointment? WHAT? lol. So they shouldn't play board games because they might not be good at them and lose and be disappointed? they shouldn't play sports because they might not be the best on the team and lose and be disappointed? Tag is no different. I wasn't the fastest kid in the yard..... I wasn't good at sports.... I wasn't the first kid picked for every game..... but it didn't destroy me for life. Kids will learn disappointment one way or another.... better to learn that you can't always win earlier in life rather than have them find out as a highschool student that life doesn't always give you what you want and then they SNAP. That's not setting a kid up for disappointment that's setting a kid up for life. they aren't always going to pass the test..... they aren't ALWAYS gonna get the girl/guy..... they aren't always gonna win the game..... they aren't always going to get their way. Why is that wrong? the point is that when disappointment happens they learn how to deal with it..... you as a parent sit down and talk to them about the game they lost or the test they didn't do so great on and tell them that they can't win all the time but if they tried their best and had a good time then the rest really isn't that big a deal and tell them how proud you are of them. that is not setting them up for disappointment. Sometimes they will win and that is great but they also have to learn to be a gracious winner. but sometimes they will lose and they have to learn not to be a sore loser, tomorrow is another day with new surprises and tomorrow that game or that test will just be a memory..... it will give them great coping skills for later in life (especially high school which is FULL of disappointments).

As for the "everything I learned about life I learned in Kindergarten" are you serious? You are seriously getting up in arms about that? lol it's just a saying. In other words.... in Kindergarten you learn to SHARE, and INTERACT, and they learn A LOT of basics for life. But now..... they shouldn't HAVE to share, they shouldn't HAVE to do anything they don't WANT to do, They shouldn't HAVE to clean up their own mess. http://www.peace.ca/kindergarten.htm Read it.... it's cute.... and true. It's a joke


EDITED TO ADD: LOL there are two different debates going on in one thread haha one about kids and one about guns. how often does that happen lol

[wombat2u2004]

EDITED TO ADD: LOL there are two different debates going on in one thread haha one about kids and one about guns. how often does that happen lol

Well we probably haven't ever seen that, but if we are to learn anything and do something about the recent spate of school shootings, we may be able to keep those two debates in different threads in the future.... :p
Wom

[wombat2u2004]

What current restrictions on there on automatic weapons? Do you mean
in the size of the clip people can use? I think gun control is more necessary
now. Gun control does not mean no guns sold, it should mean no more
assault weapons shoud be sold in gun stores. There is no need for anyone
to have half the auto weapons now available for sale. IMO

Yes, I have to agree with that. There are certainly many weapons that are not necessary to be made available to the public.
Wom

[Lady's Human]

You cannot buy an AK-47 in the United States. With the exception of a select few people, they are banned. This also goes for M-16's, Uzis, and anything else that gets lumped into the category of "Assault weapons". (Pointless category, a damned knife used to stab someone is an "Assault Weapon")

You cannot buy so-called "Armor piercing" ammunition in the United States.

You cannot buy a firearm in the United States if you have been convicted of a Felony. Depending on the offense, there are also misdemeanors which bar sales of firearms and require the confiscation of firearms if you have possession prior to the offense, most notably Domestic Violence of any sort. (Wanna have fun with your gun owning target shooting ex? File a restraining order request. Your ex is now no longer allowed to have firearms, regardless of whether or not he/she actually DID anything)

You cannot buy a firearm in the United States if you have a history of mental illness. (Oops, congressionally mandated loophole there)

There are age restrictions, locale restrictions (I.E. no carrying in places where alcohol is sold for consumption), the list of gun restrictions is endless.

Why in hell do we need more laws when the police and the criminal justice system CANNOT ENFORCE THE LAWS ALREADY ON THE BOOKS?

[Edwina's Secretary]

What about the giant loophole for buying at gun shows?

[Lady's Human]

What giant loophole for buying at gun shows?

Media myth.

If the seller is a licensed federal dealer (as most are), NICS and other checks still apply.

The paperwork still has to be processed and approved.

Of course, due to a decision of the SCOTUS the paperwork really doesn't matter, as they decided that lying on the forms is fine, as being truthful would be self incrimination for a felon.

[Puckstop31]

What giant loophole for buying at gun shows?

Media myth.

If the seller is a licensed federal dealer (as most are), NICS and other checks still apply.

The paperwork still has to be processed and approved.

Of course, due to a decision of the SCOTUS the paperwork really doesn't matter, as they decided that lying on the forms is fine, as being truthful would be self incrimination for a felon.

+1

I bought a Semi Automatic FAL a few years ago at a gun show. Had to go through the same exact checks I would if I had bought it at a shop. As it should be.

[lizbud]

Will somebody give me one reason why a private individual would have
need of an automatic weapon?

[Lady's Human]

Competition

Collecting/re-enactment

Employment (No, those jobs aren't in the help wanted section of the newspaper)

There are relatively few legal full auto weapons in the US, as they cannot be manufactured for civilian sale (I forget the cutoff date, but it is many years ago that the manufacture and importation of F/A weapons for civilian sale was banned).

The people who legally own them are some of the most stable, sane people you would ever meet.

[lizbud]

Competition

Collecting/re-enactment

Employment (No, those jobs aren't in the help wanted section of the newspaper)

There are relatively few legal full auto weapons in the US, as they cannot be manufactured for civilian sale (I forget the cutoff date, but it is many years ago that the manufacture and importation of F/A weapons for civilian sale was banned).

The people who legally own them are some of the most stable, sane people you would ever meet.

#1 Collecting? re-enactment of what event?

#2 Only employer I can think of would be Secret Service or general Law
Enforcement.

There must be a large & thriving underground in trade & sale of these kind
of weapons.They are the weapon of choice for all the nuts cases that make
national news.

[Lady's Human]

The national news blows it on a routine basis when reporting most incidents. Most of the time when they report an "AK-47" or "M-16" used in a crime, it isn't. It may be a semi-auto lookalike, but M-16's and AK's are rare birds.

Most crimes are not committed with fully automatic weapons. Semi autos? Yup. Legally purchased weapons? Somewhat less than 5% of all crimes are committed with legally purchased weapons. (FBI Stat, I don't have time to go looking for the exact % at the moment)

It really doesn't make a difference whether it's a single shot rifle or a machine gun. It's the person, not the tool. I could probably cause more damage with a single shot rifle than many criminals can cause with a fully auto firearm.

[mike001]

Loved your post Goodnow, thanks for sharing.
I'm not for or against any religion but it seems that a simple humatarian christian prayer for our friends and neighbors wouldn't hurt start the day off on the right foot. We are all humanitarians and christians, so what's the harm?

[Edwina's Secretary]

No.... we are not all christians. The US was NOT founded as a Christian nation no matter what lies the Religious Right wants to tell you.

It was founded as a nation of religious freedom.

Once a gun nut...always a gun nut I guess....no matter how many of our children get blown away by the ease with which these instruments of death can be bought.

[Lady's Human]

Again, firearms are NOT easily purchased if one does so legally. The problem is not with legal ownership. The problem is with criminals. You can ban everything under the sun, and criminals will still find a way to do what they want.


Ah, well. Once a lib, always a lib, not matter what constitutional rights get trampled.

[wombat2u2004]

[QUOTE=Lady's Human]Again, firearms are NOT easily purchased if one does so legally. The problem is not with legal ownership. The problem is with criminals. You can ban everything under the sun, and criminals will still find a way to do what they want.

Thats true !!!! I know many responsible firearm owners here, it's not them who cause the bother....it's the criminals. And even with the strict gun laws we have here downunder, it's always the crims who use them to commit crimes, and when caught carrying those weapons, they are always found to be without a licence.
So where are all of these illegal weapons coming from ??? There is a black market for this. And why do unlicenced people require them ??? Simple...to commit crimes.
It wouldn't make any difference if your country had the strict laws that we have......the crims are going to get the weapons anyway.
So disarming the public is NOT the answer.
Wom

[wombat2u2004]

Loved your post Goodnow, thanks for sharing.
I'm not for or against any religion but it seems that a simple humatarian christian prayer for our friends and neighbors wouldn't hurt start the day off on the right foot. We are all humanitarians and christians, so what's the harm?

There is no harm in the majority (Christians) practicing this at the start of each schoolday. I did it when I was young, and it certainly never hurt me, it probably shaped me into the law abiding and moral person I am today.
The Freedom of Religion section contained within the Constitution (both yours and ours), gives that right to every person of every religion.
So whats the big deal in doing what is right ??? I'm sure we allow other persons of other religions to do the same.
What next ???? Are new immigrants going to be offended by your flag ???
Would you consider changing that to suit the political correct ???
Wom

[lady_zana]

It was founded as a nation of religious freedom.

Hehehehehe....we weren't really founded on Religious Freedom....the Puritians wanted freedom for THEIR religion, not anyone elses......

That said, most of the Founding Fathers were not Christian so much as Deists.



There is no harm in the majority (Christians) practicing this at the start of each schoolday. I did it when I was young, and it certainly never hurt me, it probably shaped me into the law abiding and moral person I am today.

I never had prayer in school and I'm a law-abiding citizen. My parents took me to Mass every Sunday. I feel this is the way it should be - teaching religion should be the parents choice, not the schools.



The Freedom of Religion section contained within the Constitution (both yours and ours), gives that right to every person of every religion.
So whats the big deal in doing what is right ??? I'm sure we allow other persons of other religions to do the same.

But we wouldn't be allowing other religions to do the same if we started every morning off with a Christian prayer. I was raised Catholic. In my life, I have met many people who don't believe being Catholic is the same thing as being Christian. Those people would be horrified if every morning the teacher lead the class in a rosary prayer. But it's Christian, so what's the harm, right? :rolleyes:



What next ???? Are new immigrants going to be offended by your flag ???
Would you consider changing that to suit the political correct ???
Wom

The flag is a non-issue here. People don't worship the flag; how they feel about the flag isn't an issue of being taught in schools. There is a difference in being forced to pray to a god you don't believe in and seeing a symbol you may not like.

[DrKym]

Loved your post Goodnow, thanks for sharing.
I'm not for or against any religion but it seems that a simple humatarian christian prayer for our friends and neighbors wouldn't hurt start the day off on the right foot. We are all humanitarians and christians, so what's the harm?
We are ALL not christians, although I would venture that most on this board are of a humanitarian nature.

[Edwina's Secretary]

If guns are outlawed, only outlaws would have guns...just curious...the shooters in these (just to name a few)

Virginia Tech 04/16/07

Amish Country, PA

Wisconsin

Columbine High School

Moses Lake , Washington 2/2/96

Bethel , Alaska 2/19/97!

Pearl , Mississippi 10/1/97

West Paducah , Kentucky 12/1/97

Stam! p, Arkansas 12/15/97

Jonesboro , Arkansas 3/24/98

How many were criminals (before the infamous shooting)??????

If the existing laws are sufficient...and IF ONLY "they" would enforce those laws....

The guy in Virginia bought his gun legally. No exisiting law was broken or unenforced....

so the question is...which of these shootings was the result of convicted criminals or people who bought guns illegally???

Which of these would have been prevented if exisiting gun laws were enforced???

Is the answer all of them???...or nearly all of them???....(It certainly isn't Viriginia Tech!)

Or are these just the same tired arguments...smoke screens...knee-jerk emotional responses the gun lobby throws up every time there is a horrendous shooting because of the availablity of instruments of death in this country?

[Lady's Human]

Mr. Cho should not have been able to purchase either firearm. A Federal Law barring people with a history of mental illness was unenforced.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Mr. Cho should not have been able to purchase either firearm. A Federal Law barring people with a history of mental illness was unenforced.

Sorry...LH...but you are wrong. He did not meet the legal definition of mental illness required to cause a ban on purchasing an instrument of death!

[Lady's Human]

No, I'm not wrong. The only reason he could acquire the handguns was a loophole in the NICS law. Had his mental health situation been reported as required he would not have been able to purchase the handguns.

He also had to lie on the federal purchase form to purchase the weapons.

[Edwina's Secretary]

No, I'm not wrong. The only reason he could acquire the handguns was a loophole in the NICS law. Had his mental health situation been reported as required he would not have been able to purchase the handguns.

He also had to lie on the federal purchase form to purchase the weapons.


Yes, you are wrong...

Virginia state law on mental health disqualifications to firearms purchases, however, is worded slightly differently from the federal statute. So the form that Virginia courts use to notify state police about a mental health disqualification addresses only the state criteria, which list two potential categories that would warrant notification to the state police: someone who was “involuntarily committed” or ruled mentally “incapacitated.”[112] ”

Federal law defines adjudication as a mental defective to include "determination by a court, board, commission or other lawful authority" that as a result of mental illness, the person is a "danger to himself or others."[112] Because of gaps between federal and Virginia state laws, the state did not report Cho's legal status to the federal National Instant Criminal Background Check System, and Cho's purchases were not prevented.[112] On April 30, 2007, Virginia Governor Timothy Kaine issued an executive order intended to close those reporting gaps.

Another loophole closed 32 lives too late.

And the other shootings?

[Lady's Human]

Those citations, however, completely disregard the purchase form questionnaire which Mr. Cho could not have answered truthfully and recieved the firearms. There were several issues brought up when the NICS law was implemented, mainly regarding state reporting requirements and making the database truly universal, but the law was ramrodded through the Congress unchanged.

[Edwina's Secretary]

So...what you are saying is the current laws are inadequate to prevent nutcases from purchasing instruments of death?

[Lady's Human]

Have you ever filled out the federal purchase form? It states quite clearly that court ordered psychiatric care is a disqualifier for purchase.

[Lady's Human]

Ceph, I know full well it is legal to purchase semi auto weapons. Every post I made about certain weapons being illegal was in reference to fully auto weapons, not semis. Hell, if semis were illegal I would be slightly illegal myself. :p

My comments about what happened at your school are based completely on media accounts of what happened, and pertain solely to the legalities involved. I wouldn't pretend to know the precise events, who, what where, how, or why, because media reporting is notoriously inaccurate.

I never claimed everyone in the US was a Christian, that was another poster.

[wombat2u2004]

Hi guys....

dont want to be rude...but neither of you knows diddley squat about what happened here at Virginia Tech....so it behooves you not to use it as an example until you have something other than media sources.

thought I would add some points :

1) banning guns isnt going to do diddley squat to stop the baddies from getting guns...there is a black market...and its there for the crazies because they are crazy enough to pay.

2) ES - you really want to ban guns? What happens if they do become illegal? the problem with things that are illegal...its hard to stop the people who supply them illegally....hec, look at weed and other drugs....they're banned too....and they are EVERYWHERE.

3) LH - it is legal to purchase semi-automatics...my buds have them..AR-15s and AKs. ES - no they havent shot anyone, nor will they in the future....if you exclude terrorists. When we go to the Range we are usually just out there to have fun...we take targets and have practice....which is nice...not going to lie because as a future Army Officer I would *love* to know how to shoot....there's just something about going into war unprepared that doesnt really appeal to me...makes me think of a girl whose last name was Lynch...and through the Army we only get the chance to shoot and qualify our M-16s once or twice a year.

4) I was the fat kid who always lost at dodgeball....I loved it anyway. I didnt need to win a whole bunch of games to give me confidence. My parents let me make my own decisons and I learned it that way...and I was still a good kid who got good grades and worked hard and didnt mess around.

5) there are cases in my home county of teachers not allowing their students to say prayers in class because it could offend someone...I think there are even cases of kids not allowed to wear religous paraphinelia such as pendants. Thats stupid...if seeing a cross or a star of David or hearing someone pray to themselves shakes you up that bad then you probably dont believe whatever it is you believe as strongly as you think. I am not saying the teacher leads the class in prayer...I have never seen this happen personally...but letting children say a prayer on their own should be fine.

6) LH - lol, we are not all christians...I am what I like to call confused...mom is Catholic...dad is Jewish...I am a Cashew (not horridly religious but very, *very* faithful)... I think you were trying to say civilized right :p

7) yup...once a gun nut always a gun nut...I like the idea of being able to carry a concealed weapon if I must in the future when I walk home through the dark dank streets of DC....call it violence if you will...I would like to think of it as personal safety....not all of us live in a safe environment. And to tell you the truth I honestly find enjoyment shooting my plinker at the targets...it takes concentration and thought and control...good mental exercise.

Thought I would add my thoughts.

A very good post Ceph, if I may say so.
You certainly have the ability to hit the nail right on the head.
Wom

[wombat2u2004]

We are ALL not christians, although I would venture that most on this board are of a humanitarian nature.

Well thankyou Doc....now I can completely disregard my ex's statement that I was animal when we were married.
Now I can rest easy :D
Wom

[Edwina's Secretary]

There are lots of countries with more restrictive hand gun controls than the US....they also don't seem to have as many crazed people running around shooting up school children.

Yes, I would like to see a ban on handguns. Especially concealed handguns. Especially any rapid-fire, semi-automatic...however you want to call them - instruments of death.

And no I am not advocating trampling on any constititutional rights. I am not suggesting disarming the militia. Nor am I suggesting muzzling the press. :D :D

[Randi]

I'd like to see a ban on all guns across the entire world! In fact I'd like to see a law against producing guns!

It seems a lot of people want to own a gun to be able to protect themselves.

I met a girl from Texas a couple of years ago, she told me that she couldn't sleep, unless she had a gun "under her pillow". Isn't that sad!!

If you walk down a dark alley with a gun in your pocket and feel threatened, don't you think you'd use it?

[Lady's Human]

A ban on concealed carry permits even though FBI crime stats show time and again that after states pass CCW laws crime rates go down?

There's a testimonial to emotion triumphing over logic.

The states/cities with the most restrictive gun laws in the country are also home to some of the highest crime rates. NYC, Washington, DC, LA.......

Yep, them thar gun bans really do the trick.


Criminals LOVE unarmed victims.

[sparks19]

A ban on concealed carry permits even though FBI crime stats show time and again that after states pass CCW laws crime rates go down?

There's a testimonial to emotion triumphing over logic.

The states/cities with the most restrictive gun laws in the country are also home to some of the highest crime rates. NYC, Washington, DC, LA.......

Yep, them thar gun bans really do the trick.


Criminals LOVE unarmed victims.


Just like Canada. it takes an act of God to get a handgun.... yet gun crime is on the rise. Goes up every year.

[Edwina's Secretary]

A ban on concealed carry permits even though FBI crime stats show time and again that after states pass CCW laws crime rates go down?

There's a testimonial to emotion triumphing over logic.

The states/cities with the most restrictive gun laws in the country are also home to some of the highest crime rates. NYC, Washington, DC, LA.......

Yep, them thar gun bans really do the trick.


Criminals LOVE unarmed victims.

I hope those stats weren't published by the MEDIA! You know how unreliable the media is!... ;) ;)

I think if concealed weapons are going to be allowed...we should issue weapons upon graduation from grade school...everybody gets one...it levels the playing field...

[sparks19]

I hope those stats weren't published by the MEDIA! You know how unreliable the media is!... ;) ;)

I think if concealed weapons are going to be allowed...we should issue weapons upon graduation from grade school...everybody gets one...it levels the playing field...


Upon proper completion of the requirements... perhaps ;)

[DrKym]

Well thankyou Doc....now I can completely disregard my ex's statement that I was animal when we were married.
Now I can rest easy :D
Wom
I did qualify it Wom...I said MOST! :p

Doc

[Lady's Human]

Actually, ES, they are unfiltered numbers direct from the FBI annual crime stat report. Anyone can look up the data on the web and look at the trends themselves.

Here is a link to one report extracted from FBI crime data, complete with references to where the data was taken from and what year the data was taken from :

http://www.rkba.org/ccw/stat

The Governor of Michigan, who was VERY anti CCW, had a concealed carry law pushed through the legislature against her wishes. She is now a convert after seeing the results of the legislation.

I firmly believe anyone who can pass legal qualifications and demonstrates skill with a firearm (safe handling, safe storage, etc) should be able to get a CCW permit. I see no reason to prevent law abiding citizens from having access to the means to defend themselves and their homes if they choose to exercise their right to do so.

[lizbud]

The Governor of Michigan, who was VERY anti CCW, had a concealed carry law pushed through the legislature against her wishes. She is now a convert after seeing the results of the legislation.



I believe she's a Democrat too. :) I am ok with people owning a handgun
if they are qualified to buy one. I own one myself. It's the auto weapons
with the ability to rip a crowd to bits that scares me. They should not be
sold to the public.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Oh goodness...you don't believe the FBI statistics do you? Worse than the media..... ;) :D

A wild west shootout....what a lovely thought. Lots of innocent bystanders can get shot too! Bullets whizzing through walls into babies's cribs....

We already know that the existing laws are ineffectual in keeping people with mental illness from buying guns "legally"....e.g. Virginia Tech...

and you want to put MORE guns on the streets....

I will not stay in a home where there are handguns. It is too dangerous. I left my cousin's home when I found out her husband keeps handguns around.

There are LOTS of statistics on how dangerous a home is with handguns in it as compare to a home without. According to the American Academy of Pediatrics -- in a home with handguns it is much more likely the gun will be used in a suicide, domestic dispute or accidental shooting than in self-defense.

[Lady's Human]

There's a difference, ES.

The American Academy of Pediatrics has an ax to grind. They have been on the HCI side of the debate for as long as I can remember. They came out with a survey that Pediatricians were supposed to give to their patients' parents asking about guns in the home. If I ever get given that survey by a doctor I'm finding a new Doc.

The FBI doesn't have an agenda. Their annual crime statistics report is just that. Statistics. X offenses of Y type per 100 or 1000 people in a given municipality. It is a very dry document. If crime goes up, it states so in the report. If crime goes down, it does the same. The report is done by career civil servants, not political appointees. It's almost impossible to fire them, so there's little leverage available to get them to massage the figures.


I will not stay in a home where there are handguns. It is too dangerous

I guess you won't be coming for dinner, then.

[Edwina's Secretary]

There's a difference, ES.

The American Academy of Pediatrics has an ax to grind. They have been on the HCI side of the debate for as long as I can remember. They came out with a survey that Pediatricians were supposed to give to their patients' parents asking about guns in the home. If I ever get given that survey by a doctor I'm finding a new Doc.

The FBI doesn't have an agenda. Their annual crime statistics report is just that. Statistics. X offenses of Y type per 100 or 1000 people in a given municipality. It is a very dry document. If crime goes up, it states so in the report. If crime goes down, it does the same. The report is done by career civil servants, not political appointees. It's almost impossible to fire them, so there's little leverage available to get them to massage the figures.



I guess you won't be coming for dinner, then.


I am sure the dinner would have been delicious....Pediatricians have an ax to grind. Wow! How about radiologist? They suspect too? ...it seems anyone holding an opinion contrary to yours is suspect. Ever notice that?

With that...I don't trust the FBI....I am a child of the Viet Nam Era...NEVER trust the Feds.... :D Go see the movie about Hanssen....career civil servants....worse than pediatrician...(with apology to my brother...)

Is it possible peds care about children? Nawwww...just politics....

[Lady's Human]

In regards to their "caring" survey, I don't give a damn why they put anything in their survey. What need does a doc have for the information?

None.

You don't trust civil servants, but you trust the media? Now THERE is a problem.

I wouldn't trust a modern reporter to get the color of the sky correct, and if they did by some miracle happen to report that the sky was indeed blue, I'd be running for a window to double check. I've seen the media get too many things wrong and tell 1/2 of the story too many times.

[RICHARD]

I guess no one noticed the students at VT who were in uniform.

I don't know if they are part of a cadet corp, ROTC or ? on campus.
I thought to myself that one cadet with a CW..

I guess allowing people to pack heat on a COLLEGE campus (with all the bells, whistles, pomp and circumstance. of course) and having someone produce a firearm and busting caps-maybe stopping the toll at 15 or 20- would have been out of the question?

----------

Don't throw out the baby in the crib with the bullet type.

There are a few different kinds of bullets.

Jacketed, hollow point, lead, copper-

Each has a different "use" and consequence.

Hollow point flatten on impact. Telfon coated (mostly illegal to all) are used to defeat body armor. Some police depts MANDATE what type of ammo they use, to cut down on 'innocent baby deaths'. Look at all the ammo the North Hollywood Shootout robbers used- no one wa killed.

I drove the neighborhood the next day- Find a concrete light pole, take your fist, hold it over a section of that pole and picture a chunk that big missing from it. The LAPD also makes a show of parading around two of the squad cars that were shot up. Not really confidence inspiring since they use them at the recruiting booths. The thugs used armor piercing bullets that day.

Contrary to popular belief, not all shootings happen in Hollywood-for some reason bullets behave differently there!

[RICHARD]

Richard...I am one of those Cadets...Matt LaPorte was one of those cadets....


Words are hollow, but I am truly sorry about the pain that has visited your world.

--------

There was one radio moron who was critical of the victims-"why didn't anyone rush Cho?" From what the media reported-I know, what to believe coming from that estate-When he bought the 9mm he also purchased 50 rounds of hollow point ammo- Hollow point rounds are really brutal -just as brutal as the rounds coming out of an assault rifle.

The moron jock was suspended from his gig

---------

About the coverage.

That AH Karan Grewal made every outlet- One cable network even did an hour 'special' and that little maggot made it on their airwaves....

Sad to think that these idiots refuse to STFU!

[Edwina's Secretary]

In regards to their "caring" survey, I don't give a damn why they put anything in their survey. What need does a doc have for the information?

Save lives? Now...what business would that be of a doctor???


You don't trust civil servants, but you trust the media?

Seen way too many civil servants....too political for my taste. They all seem to have a hidden agenda. J. Edgar Hoover ring a bell?

[Edwina's Secretary]

When he bought the 9mm he also purchased 50 rounds of hollow point ammo- Hollow point rounds are really brutal -just as brutal as the rounds coming out of an assault rifle.



Be sure and thank the NRA for his ability to purchase hollow point ammo! Constitutional Right you know!

[RICHARD]

Be sure and thank the NRA for his ability to purchase hollow point ammo! Constitutional Right you know!

Do I have time to thank VA for not letting people carry CWs on a campus.
And the factions that do not want schools to toss kids out because they are loony, The system that says this loon was goofy, signing a paper saying he was a danger to himself, but NOT being able to do anything about it?


I really hate to trivialize this incident, but I thought about this a few days after the shootings.

If someone had a raging case of crabs or herpes or ? and infected a whole slew of students - What can be done about that? Remember the HIPPA rules?You just can't 'out' people because of what is in their medical records.

While we are at it...
What about the idiots who lived with this kook for months but left him alone
because they thought he was different?

Trust me, I have worked with people that were off center and I made sure that people knew about it

I worked with a friiggen goofball reserve cop from some little city department.
She'd sit at her desk and paint faces on the bullets from her carry-on piece-I told my boss about it and there was nothing that she could do. I thought, "Oh well, I could always walk one flight upstairs to the ER if I ever need a .32 hollow point taken out...."

-------------
For the record,

HIPPA rules are very stringent rules regarding a person's medical history.
IF YOU HAPPEN to work in any medical enviroment where you have access to someone's medical history and you release it, you are screwed.,

People, who don't want the government to look into their private lives, computers, bank records and phone lines have to shoulder a little of the blame.

I mean, what does your psych records have to do with buying a gun?

Guns don't kill people, bullets do. :rolleyes:

[Edwina's Secretary]

People, who don't want the government to look into their private lives, computers, bank records and phone lines have to shoulder a little of the blame.



Nothing like a good trample on Constitutional Rights! Don't touch my instrument of death...but please search my personal life, computer, bank records, phone line...and my medical records while you at it! Don't forget to read my diary/journal while you are rummaging through my house. Might be something in there you need to know.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

In fact, I have an idea...when the government is done rummaging through personal lives...they can publish everything they have learned on a data base for employers. Then employers can make decisions based on it. For example...if you have a child with a serious medical condition...and the employer doesn't want the lost time or the high insurance costs that goes with it...they can just not hire you.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Edwina's Secretary]

I agree with Richard...if information had been a little bit more open such as the information from the school counselors and the teachers that had worked this kid and *knew* he was certifiable we probably would have avoided alot of loss....however its against the law to share that information and they were unable to.

How would "sharing information from the school counselors and the teachers have avoid alot of loss."

How many kids do you suppose are odd...different...? And you are thinking counselors and teachers should report all of them to whom? And what would be done with all that info? And what if a teachers really dislikes you and reports you?

And..this is only one shooting. How about the guy who mentally tortured and then shot the Amish school girls? He had no record. He was a married man with three children...and a bunch of guns.

Do you think the government should start a "watch" file on married men with three children who have guns?

[RICHARD]

I will not stay in a home where there are handguns. It is too dangerous.


CHECK THIS OUT!

I am afraid of hand held power tools now...


Some guy mutilated a woman with a circular saw.....THEN KILLED DHIMSELF WITH IT!


I'm getting kinda nervous....There is a router just outside the door...

[wombat2u2004]

CHECK THIS OUT!

I am afraid of hand held power tools now...


Some guy mutilated a woman with a circular saw.....THEN KILLED DHIMSELF WITH IT!


I'm getting kinda nervous....There is a router just outside the door...

OMG Richard !!!! Not the dreaded router ???? Run....run now !!!!!
I have nail guns....they are dangerous...VERY dangerous.....but not as dangerous as a router.
You should hide it mate....just in case the greenies get the law changed, and you have hand it in. :eek:
Wom

[Edwina's Secretary]

CHECK THIS OUT!

I am afraid of hand held power tools now...


Some guy mutilated a woman with a circular saw.....THEN KILLED DHIMSELF WITH IT!


I'm getting kinda nervous....There is a router just outside the door...

How amusing RICHARD. How many Amish school girls were killed with it?

And you...who doesn't like Happy Cinco de Mayo... :eek:

The difference is...a circular saw has a purpose other than self-mutilation. A handgun is designed for one thing. Killing people. Easily.

Oh! Let's make a joke about that......

[Edwina's Secretary]

Just read the newspaper ...on the same page with the story of the man who killed his mother with a circular saw...

A college student who killed one and wounded two...with his concealed weapon. Why? Dispute over a video game.

[Randi]

was it an actual concealed weapon with a permit or just a gun he was hiding in his shirt?

Does it matter? .... the shooting continues. :rolleyes: No one seem to realise that when people are P.O. or feel threatened, they will use their gun, whether they got it legally or not!

Not sure which paper ES and Richard is referring to, but here's the front pages of quite a few Newspapers around the world.

http://www.newseum.org/todaysfrontpages/

[Edwina's Secretary]

Randi, you are right! I don't know if the shooter had a permit, if the gun was in his shirt or sitting on the game console.

I doubt it makes much difference to the dead guy.

It was Cal State Fresno. But a college shooting with one dead and two injuried isn't enough anymore to be on the front page. Or even the front section. It was on page 3 of the second section in the LA TIMES.

[Randi]

... a college shooting with one dead and two injuried isn't enough anymore to be on the front page. Or even the front section. It was on page 3 of the second section in the LA TIMES.
Here, it would certainly be on the front page, even for two or three days - and people would go: Oh my God, someone has been shot!! :eek:

It seems to be quite a normal occurance in USA these days. :(

[RICHARD]

It seems to be quite a normal occurance in USA these days. :(

With 300 million looney tunes in the country, you have to have some fallout!

--------------

ES,

My point is ANY household item can be used to kill a person.

I am not a gun nut, collector or ?? I have inherited all my guns and they have never caused any problems, as a matter of fact I forget I even have them!


I loaded gun in a room will never kill anyone on it's own. It's the idiot who picks it up and abuses it that causes problems.

[Puckstop31]

In the end, to me, this entire debate comes to one about freedom. It may seem obtuse and illogical to some of our more "enlightened" members, but my ability to own a firearm is, IMHO, the last thing allowing us to have any amount of freedom. This freedom will be taken from me only if I no longer walk this Earth. Period. Men better than myself have fought, suffered and died to make this country what it is. I refuse to let our government take even more of our freedom. The "Patriot Act" et all is horrible enough, why let them take even more?

The SOLE intent of the 2nd Amendment is to provide a way for the people to fight a tyrranous government. How far away do we all really think armed revolution is? All I ever hear from liberal people is how screwed up our government is. Is the answer really MORE laws and government? Sooner or later we will say enough is enough... What will our urbanite, liberal friends do then???


As has been said many times before... If people are willing to give up some freedom for a little "security", they deserve nor will have either.

[Randi]

With 300 million looney tunes in the country, you have to have some fallout!
Yes, Richard, that is SO true, unfortunately! :( So much more a reason to NOT let everybody have a gun.

I’m sure you’ll agree, that in a given situation someone down the road, who you’d never dream would use a gun, just might!

I know that other things can used to kill people, like a knife - but you’d have to get a lot closer to the person to do so, and you won’t have time to kill quite as many.

[sparks19]

Yes, Richard, that is SO true, unfortunately! :( So much more a reason to NOT let everybody have a gun.

I’m sure you’ll agree, that in a given situation someone down the road, who you’d never dream would use a gun, just might!

I know that other things can used to kill people, like a knife - but you’d have to get a lot closer to the person to do so, and you won’t have time to kill quite as many.


But you can take out so many more people with a home made bomb.... and you can get instructions for that on the internet.

[wombat2u2004]

But you can take out so many more people with a home made bomb.... and you can get instructions for that on the internet.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd once again we get back to INTENTION !!!!!
The REAL problem.
Wom