I can't say I'm Sorry

[lizbud]

Ice traps Canadian seal hunters

Several boats are hemmed in by the ice
Canadian coastguards are trying to rescue the occupants of about 100 boats carrying seal hunters trapped by pack ice off the country's eastern coast.

Several of the boats are threatened with damage or sinking, and at least one crew had to abandon ship.

Fishermen have described conditions as the worst for more than 20 years.

The hunt, described by activists as cruel and unnecessary, is currently in its third and largest stage off the coast of Newfoundland province.

A spokesman of the Canadian Fisheries and Oceans Department said two-thirds of the quota for the cull had already been filled.

The total quota for the hunt is 270,000 seals.

Food and fuel shortage

Winds pressing the ice floes in towards land have made conditions difficult for the boats, some of which are hemmed in and face having their hulls cracked open.



Conditions are set to continue until the end of the week and could deteriorate further, coastguards say.

Canada's CBC network said some of the boats were running out of food and fuel.

A crew member of one of the stranded boats, the Southern Pride, told the network the ice had crushed a speedboat and left their vessel high and dry.

"I've never, ever experienced nothing like this. We've been in the wrong place each time," said Gill Cadwell.

Canada insists that the cull, which is smaller than last year's, is necessary to keep seal numbers down.

Seal pelts are sold to the fashion industry in Russia, China and Norway, and seal blubber is used for oil.

The culls regularly provoke an international outcry, with celebrities such as Sir Paul McCartney and Brigitte Bardot being involved in the campaign against them.

[Freedom]

I saw this in our morning newspaper, and I grinned!

[lvpets2002]

:) Serves them right.. Guess now they know how it is to be trapped & what its like to fear death..

[kuhio98]

Well, I would never choose an animal's life over a human's. But this news did bring a smile to my face.

I think God has a great sense of humor! :D

[moosmom]

Guess now they know how it is to be trapped & what its like to fear death

I only HOPE it'll do some good, but I doubt it. :(

[Cataholic]

I don't want anyone dead- not the seals, nor the hunters. BUT, I want the seal "hunt" to stop. If this brings it any closer, I am thankful.

:(

[Randi]

It seems that these seal hunters will have some time out there to think about what they're doing - and hopefully stop it!! I can't say I feel sorry for them.

[Argranade]

Those looders,

I don't want them to get hurt but maybe the weather will keep doing this too them lol.

[Miss Z]

I hope this fright teaches them all a lesson!

[momoffuzzyfaces]

I thought that was what they get for hunting God's innocent creatures!!! A good fright may do them good!

[Cubby'sMom]

Well I for one can't say I would grin at news like this, but it is good that the seals have a chance now. I don't enjoy hearing about all of the seals that are killed, that's for sure.

[lizbud]

These people might get a little cold & hungry but they don't face certain
brutal death like the seals. Plenty of other people know where the "hunters?"
are & won't let them drown or starve.They might be uncomfortable but the
baby seal gets to live another day.

[DrKym]

Canada insists that the cull, which is smaller than last year's, is necessary to keep seal numbers down.


I think if it is an active culling based on population and feeding availability by the numbers, lowering disease and starvation for the others, then they are doing the seals a service. Much like annual deer hunting, alligator culls, moose hunting etc.

Hope they are rescued soon and no one is seriously injured.

[lizbud]

Canada insists that the cull, which is smaller than last year's, is necessary to keep seal numbers down.


I think if it is an active culling based on population and feeding availability by the numbers, lowering disease and starvation for the others, then they are doing the seals a service. Much like annual deer hunting, alligator culls, moose hunting etc.

Hope they are rescued soon and no one is seriously injured.


I hope they never try to do me any favors or I'd take a few of their pelts. :mad:

If humans were starving I could see killing animals for food, but never simply
for their skins to decorate someone's coat. I don't buy the killing is a
kindness to these animals.It's total BS and only serves to legitimize there
cruelity.

[buttercup132]

Dang, I wish something worse happened to them.

[wombat2u2004]

Canada insists that the cull, which is smaller than last year's, is necessary to keep seal numbers down.


I think if it is an active culling based on population and feeding availability by the numbers, lowering disease and starvation for the others, then they are doing the seals a service. Much like annual deer hunting, alligator culls, moose hunting etc.

Hope they are rescued soon and no one is seriously injured.

Hmmmmmmm.....so who culled these animals before humans came along ???
I'll go with Lizbud on this one, because I believe that the whole process is based on obtaining skins for foreign consumer use.....and that has got to be worth lot's of bucks to the country involved.
I hope to, that no-one is hurt....but if some are....they only have themselves to blame.
Wom

[mike001]

I can't say that I feel sorry for them. I've watched videos of the clubbings and it's sickening, no reason for this at all except the $$$$$$$$$. anyone that can look into those big pleading eyes and club the baby to death deserves to have something like this happen to wake them up.

[DrKym]

Hmmmmmmm.....so who culled these animals before humans came along ???
I'll go with Lizbud on this one, because I believe that the whole process is based on obtaining skins for foreign consumer use.....and that has got to be worth lot's of bucks to the country involved.
I hope to, that no-one is hurt....but if some are....they only have themselves to blame.
Wom

I am going to say the culling would not be necessary except for the fact that we enjoy their natural food supply as much as they do. Due to our desires and overfishing their isn't enough to feed our greed and to feed them. By culling them it lessens a slow death from starvation while we feast on what is rightfully theirs.

[Sophist]

Dang, I wish something worse happened to them.


I am pretty shocked by this and other responses here in this thread. These are the sorts of things I would expect to hear from ALF, PETA, or other domestic terrorists.

These are human beings. Seeing this one path they have chosen in their lives and wishing ill on them while 100 or so terrified families wait and worry for them... I am sorry, maybe it makes me a bad animal lover, but I just can't wish that level of hardship and pain on hundreds of strangers who I only know one thing about in the vain hope of preventing a cull.


Yes, it is an ugly, horrifying bloodbath, but I don't think it can be so easily dismissed as totally un-needed or only based on fabricated problems. It can be hard to be objective about culling, but it is not always the worst thing that could happen to an animal.

Do people who legally kill an animal (possible in the best interest of the animals around it) deserve to die slowly and miserably while we sit in our comfy homes and giggle? I personally can't say yes and feel good about myself.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

Oh dear, what a shame................................. I have no qualms about not feeling any sympathy for them. Maybe they will all have a career rethink and stop their senseless slaughter

[wombat2u2004]

I am going to say the culling would not be necessary except for the fact that we enjoy their natural food supply as much as they do. Due to our desires and overfishing their isn't enough to feed our greed and to feed them. By culling them it lessens a slow death from starvation while we feast on what is rightfully theirs.

Ahhhhhhh....ok Doc. While countries battle on with wheat wars, and the unsold surplus get dumped in the ocean.....you're going to tell me you prefer to eat fish.....yeah ??? And not twenty miles from where I live, they had a potato glut on last year....entire fields of potatoes were left to rot in the sun because nobody wanted them. Hmmmmm......so the masses would prefer to have a choice in a restaurant and forget about the slaughter.... :eek:
Wom

[DrKym]

Ahhhhhhh....ok Doc. While countries battle on with wheat wars, and the unsold surplus get dumped in the ocean.....you're going to tell me you prefer to eat fish.....yeah ??? And not twenty miles from where I live, they had a potato glut on last year....entire fields of potatoes were left to rot in the sun because nobody wanted them. Hmmmmm......so the masses would prefer to have a choice in a restaurant and forget about the slaughter.... :eek:
Wom
That would be pretty much it Wom, I didn't say I like the idea, just that we created the issue, along with many others.

[Cubby'sMom]

I am pretty shocked by this and other responses here in this thread. These are the sorts of things I would expect to hear from ALF, PETA, or other domestic terrorists.

These are human beings. Seeing this one path they have chosen in their lives and wishing ill on them while 100 or so terrified families wait and worry for them... I am sorry, maybe it makes me a bad animal lover, but I just can't wish that level of hardship and pain on hundreds of strangers who I only know one thing about in the vain hope of preventing a cull.


Yes, it is an ugly, horrifying bloodbath, but I don't think it can be so easily dismissed as totally un-needed or only based on fabricated problems. It can be hard to be objective about culling, but it is not always the worst thing that could happen to an animal.

Do people who legally kill an animal (possible in the best interest of the animals around it) deserve to die slowly and miserably while we sit in our comfy homes and giggle? I personally can't say yes and feel good about myself.

I agree with you 100% on this, I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Puckstop31]

I am going to tuck the comments in this thread away for the next time a gun control or "war" debate comes up....

[Pawsitive Thinking]

I am pretty shocked by this and other responses here in this thread. These are the sorts of things I would expect to hear from ALF, PETA, or other domestic terrorists.

These are human beings. Seeing this one path they have chosen in their lives and wishing ill on them while 100 or so terrified families wait and worry for them... I am sorry, maybe it makes me a bad animal lover, but I just can't wish that level of hardship and pain on hundreds of strangers who I only know one thing about in the vain hope of preventing a cull.


Yes, it is an ugly, horrifying bloodbath, but I don't think it can be so easily dismissed as totally un-needed or only based on fabricated problems. It can be hard to be objective about culling, but it is not always the worst thing that could happen to an animal.

Do people who legally kill an animal (possible in the best interest of the animals around it) deserve to die slowly and miserably while we sit in our comfy homes and giggle? I personally can't say yes and feel good about myself.


Hmm - I have to admit that my initial response was a knee-jerk reaction. As much as I abhor the seal cull I certainly do not want anyone to lose their lives - they are husbands, fathers, sons and brothers too

[Marigold2]

Oh ok this is my two cents. Since we are saying that culling is ok for these seals lets go into animal shelters and club dogs and cats to death as well, lets not forget about bunnies. Is the mommy nursing or pregnant with a litter of puppies, too damn bad? I am going to take a baseball bat and slam it in to that Golden Retriver again and again and again as it screams and begs for it's life and the life of it's puppies but hey that's ok it's only culling. Anyone have a problem with that? It's only culling and we have too many dogs and cats anyway. Those people out there just making a living. Maybe we can hire them to come over here and empty or shelters. Why not? They can beat all the dogs and cats to death. Lets support their families their kids. Those men gotta work.
But you say these are dogs and cats, we love them, they love us they are loyal. Well too damn bad. Those poor defenseless seals have as many joys, and hopes, and want of a meal, fresh water, care and love of their young as any dog or cat or rabbit. The question is NOT how much they love us, or how cuddley and cute they are, or how they greet us by the door. None of that matters. Seals and dogs have the same amount of pain receptors. Hit a lab with a bat, hit a seal with a bat, same screams of agony, same pleading eyes, same blood splatters and tissue squirting out. NO DIFFERENCE. So if beating a seal is ok and we can call it culling then beating a dog to death when it is pregnant and you don't want the pups is ok as well.

[lizbud]

Oh ok this is my two cents. Since we are saying that culling is ok for these seals lets go into animal shelters and club dogs and cats to death as well, lets not forget about bunnies. Is the mommy nursing or pregnant with a litter of puppies, too damn bad? I am going to take a baseball bat and slam it in to that Golden Retriver again and again and again as it screams and begs for it's life and the life of it's puppies but hey that's ok it's only culling. Anyone have a problem with that? It's only culling and we have too many dogs and cats anyway. Those people out there just making a living. Maybe we can hire them to come over here and empty or shelters. Why not? They can beat all the dogs and cats to death. Lets support their families their kids. Those men gotta work.
But you say these are dogs and cats, we love them, they love us they are loyal. Well too damn bad. Those poor defenseless seals have as many joys, and hopes, and want of a meal, fresh water, care and love of their young as any dog or cat or rabbit. The
question is NOT how much they love us, or how cuddley and cute they are, or how they greet us by the door. None of that matters. Seals and dogs have the same amount of pain receptors. Hit a lab with a bat, hit a seal with a bat, same screams of agony, same pleading eyes, same blood splatters and tissue squirting out. NO DIFFERENCE. So if beating a seal is ok and we can call it culling then beating a dog to death when it is pregnant and you don't want the pups is ok as well.

:( :( It is the same line of reasoning, is'nt it? All living things deserve
respect & kindness.

These men are not in a life threatning situation.The people on shore know
exactly where they are & how they are doing. Sure they are incovenienced, & I don't feel bad about that at all.

[Sophist]

Oh ok this is my two cents. Since we are saying that culling is ok for these seals lets go into animal shelters and club dogs and cats to death as well, lets not forget about bunnies. Is the mommy nursing or pregnant with a litter of puppies, too damn bad? I am going to take a baseball bat and slam it in to that Golden Retriver again and again and again as it screams and begs for it's life and the life of it's puppies but hey that's ok it's only culling. Anyone have a problem with that? It's only culling and we have too many dogs and cats anyway. Those people out there just making a living. Maybe we can hire them to come over here and empty or shelters. Why not? They can beat all the dogs and cats to death. Lets support their families their kids. Those men gotta work.
But you say these are dogs and cats, we love them, they love us they are loyal. Well too damn bad. Those poor defenseless seals have as many joys, and hopes, and want of a meal, fresh water, care and love of their young as any dog or cat or rabbit. The question is NOT how much they love us, or how cuddley and cute they are, or how they greet us by the door. None of that matters. Seals and dogs have the same amount of pain receptors. Hit a lab with a bat, hit a seal with a bat, same screams of agony, same pleading eyes, same blood splatters and tissue squirting out. NO DIFFERENCE. So if beating a seal is ok and we can call it culling then beating a dog to death when it is pregnant and you don't want the pups is ok as well.

Did anyone say it was ok, really? I must have missed it.


I never said the seal cull was 'ok'. But I don't think it is as black and white as our gut reaction wants it to be.

I hope, however, that you will bear with me on a few points:

A fair amount of the animals culled are used for meat, from what I have been able to discover. Taiwan and South Korea both import meat from these seal hunts, so it isn't as though it is all done for bloodlust or fashion fur.

And as far as the fashion fur element of it... I am obviously not a supporter at all. Not even close. However, there again could be a tiny, tiny justification for using a cull that would probably be taking place anyway to supply this awful practice. At least these seals got to live somewhat normally and not on a fur farm before being slaughtered. At least there is SOME sort of guideline and some attempts at policing the skinning of these animals. I am sure we have all seen or heard about the animal right's groups videos showing fur farms that apparently routinely skin (or begin skinning) animals on fur farms while they are still alive. There are regulations against this in the seal hunts, and some measures are taken to enforce this. It is very, very far from a perfect system, but at least (unlike the fur farms that would otherwise supply this fur) some attempt is made.

So... to answer Marigold's question... if you were to go into a shelter and use a tool like the hakapik(basically, the spiked club that tends to more closely resemble a pick-axe) or large-caliber rifles that tend to be used in the seal hunts properly, which independant vetrinarians have said produces unconsciousness and death quickly enough to meet the technical guidelines of a 'humane' method, in order to prevent the dogs from starving and/or to send the dogs to countries who would use their fur and meat in place of animals who would suffer a whole lot more if farmed and slaughtered there, then yes... I would support that as much as I could be said to support the seal hunt. And, as an added bonus, I wouldn't giggle and hope you would suffer or die for it.

As I said before, it is horrific and brutal and excruciating to see. I don't deny that at all or think the whole thing is 'ok', or that there isn't a ton of room for improvement and reform. I just think that it is better to die relatively quickly from trauma than it is to linger and starve and compete with your family for food, leaving the survivors weaker than if you had died sooner. And I think it is better to have wild meat and fur shipped in than to be raised in an unnatural, filthy slaughter ground and be killed without any sort of policing or a second's thought to your suffering.


Sorry it is so long-winded, but those are my thoughts on the matter...

[DrKym]

Sophist well said and my thoughts exactly! Thank you.

[lizbud]

Sophist well said and my thoughts exactly! Thank you.


Is there any position on this subject that you won't support? Talk about
flip-flopping. :D


I really don't believe the HSUS is considered some radical group and they
have much to say on this subject. Check it out. Thanks.

http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/protect_seals/about_the_canadian_seal_hunt/

[Sophist]

Is there any position on this subject that you won't support? Talk about
flip-flopping. :D


I really don't believe the HSUS is considered some radical group and they
have much to say on this subject. Check it out. Thanks.

http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/protect_seals/about_the_canadian_seal_hunt/


I don't think this is a flip-flop for Doctor Goodnow from what I recall of the previous posts... she was pretty moderate on the issue. She argued, basically, that we're to blame for needing a cull, but didn't deny that one was needed.

And to be perfectly honest, I have HUGE issues with the HSUS and their credibility and concern for animals... but that is an issue for another thread. Maybe that biases me more than I am able to compensate for, but I find the information here painfully one-sided and at times very deceptively presented.

I think this link is pretty fair, and has relatively balanced information that at times is damaging to both arguments. I will try to find more that straddles the fence some.


** Oops! Forgot to add the link... here is is:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/sealhunt/

[Sophist]

Now, this one may be less even-handed as it is from an organization with a vested interest, to say the least, but it has a good Q & A format that might give PTers something to think on and look in to.


http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/myth_e.htm

[Sophist]

BBC article that is pretty fair, but obviously seems to agree with more of PT's viewpoint:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3618901.stm

[pitc9]

Canada insists that the cull, which is smaller than last year's, is necessary to keep seal numbers down.


I think if it is an active culling based on population and feeding availability by the numbers, lowering disease and starvation for the others, then they are doing the seals a service. Much like annual deer hunting, alligator culls, moose hunting etc.

Hope they are rescued soon and no one is seriously injured.

I might be able to go along with that.
Here in Ohio the deer population is so out of control that they are slowly and painfully starving to death and the disease is out of control and has been more and more deformation found in young deer. They have started to thin the herd in a humane way. They have extended hunting seasons and have allowed hunters to "take" a larger number of deer each season.

BUT

It's the way that the seals are killing is what is so disgusting!
Aren't they are CLUBBED to death?!
Last time I checked we no longer are Cave men and women!

[lizbud]

Found this comment on another forum to rebut the "seals are eating all
the fish" argument. Consider this:


Yes, the fish stocks have depleted, but that's not the fault of the seals.

In fact, the seals, when not able to access enough fish, will switch to eating small squid, etc., which also eat the fish.

In essence, if you leave the seals alone and switch to different fishing lanes for a couple of years, the seal will sort out your problem for you.

Instead, the fishers stick to the same fishing lanes, fish them out, blame the seals, kill the seals, then wonder why the fish stocks are still too low.

[wombat2u2004]

Found this comment on another forum to rebut the "seals are eating all
the fish" argument. Consider this:


Yes, the fish stocks have depleted, but that's not the fault of the seals.

In fact, the seals, when not able to access enough fish, will switch to eating small squid, etc., which also eat the fish.

In essence, if you leave the seals alone and switch to different fishing lanes for a couple of years, the seal will sort out your problem for you.

Instead, the fishers stick to the same fishing lanes, fish them out, blame the seals, kill the seals, then wonder why the fish stocks are still too low.

Yes....that is VERY true.
I was reading an article not too long ago about overfishing.....and I haven't heard of one single fisherman who has been bashed to death with an icepick.
Maybe a few fishing companies can be culled out of existence. Especially those who go for a particular form of sealife, take what they want, and throw the rest of the dead fish back into the water.
Wom

[wombat2u2004]

I might be able to go along with that.
Here in Ohio the deer population is so out of control that they are slowly and painfully starving to death and the disease is out of control and has been more and more deformation found in young deer. They have started to thin the herd in a humane way. They have extended hunting seasons and have allowed hunters to "take" a larger number of deer each season.

BUT

It's the way that the seals are killing is what is so disgusting!
Aren't they are CLUBBED to death?!
Last time I checked we no longer are Cave men and women!

And that is exactly the point Pitc9....the difference between humane and inhumane killing.
Wom

[Sophist]

Found this comment on another forum to rebut the "seals are eating all
the fish" argument. Consider this:


Yes, the fish stocks have depleted, but that's not the fault of the seals.

In fact, the seals, when not able to access enough fish, will switch to eating small squid, etc., which also eat the fish.

In essence, if you leave the seals alone and switch to different fishing lanes for a couple of years, the seal will sort out your problem for you.

Instead, the fishers stick to the same fishing lanes, fish them out, blame the seals, kill the seals, then wonder why the fish stocks are still too low.

Yes, the Dr., when she brought that up, did mention it was because WE were competing with the seals for food. If you read any of the links given, you'll see that even most staunch supporters of the hunt reject the idea that the cull is being done to protect the cod population.


And pitc9--- it's not exactly clubbing, generally speaking. It is usually large-calibar rifles and hakapiks (more like a pick-axe) that when used 'correctly' meet the guidelines for a 'humane' method of killing. In fact, a firm, well-placed blow from a hakapik should produce results pretty much comparable to the bullets fired from ships.

[lizbud]

And pitc9--- it's not exactly clubbing, generally speaking. It is usually large-calibar rifles and hakapiks (more like a pick-axe) that when used 'correctly' meet the guidelines for a 'humane' method of killing. In fact, a firm, well-placed blow from a hakapik should produce results pretty much comparable to the bullets fired from ships.


A distinction without a difference. I doubt the the baby seal cares which
object is used to bash it's head in. :( :(

[Sophist]

A distinction without a difference. I doubt the the baby seal cares which
object is used to bash it's head in. :( :(


A club and a hakapik aren't the same. I do feel there is a valid distinction.

The baby seal may not care, but I really don't think it has the cognitive ability to logically reason out the best way to die. Several teams of American and Canadian veterinarians have agreed that the hakapik qualifies as a humane method when used correctly.

In fact, if used correctly, the hakapik produces unconsciousness instantly. That is quicker than with euthanasia, which veterinarians report takes a few seconds. And death in the reports I have read typically occurs instantly or within 30 seconds of unconsciousness... well within the 90 seconds legally allotted. Euthanasia, if you read up on it, usually takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 90 seconds to produce death once the animal is unconscious and the heart and lungs have been stopped by the drug. So really, you could say the hakapik is a quicker way to go.

Either way, if the animal is rendered unsconscious, there isn't going to be a lot of suffering involved.

Rather than outlaw the hakapik because they remind you of caveman, it would help out the seals a lot more to lend your voice to ensuring that all hakapik users are properly trained.

[Sophist]

OOh, just checked the international laws (since the hunts occur in Canada, Naimibia, Russia, Greenland, Norway, other places?) and they are actually allowed 45-300 seconds to provide death and still have it be considered humane, so it looks like a properly used hakapik exceeds those standards pretty well.


Like I said, though, if you want to help the seals, don't call for the hakapik to be banned. I really don't see it being fruitful, as even the veterinarian commissions who do the studies haven't said it would be helpful or neccesary.

Instead, lend your voice to supporting the proper training, continued and expanded policing for rule-breakers, bleeding as soon as the animal is unconcscious/presumed dead to make sure it will die quickly, and the mandatory blink tests before hooking and skinning.

If you want to make a difference here, I really feel like you have to think about the problem fairly and objectively, and select goals that are reachable and will benefit the seals in important ways, even if it isn't your idea of a perfect solution, and even if it is still disturbing to for you to focus on.

[DrKym]

Is there any position on this subject that you won't support? Talk about
flip-flopping. :D


I really don't believe the HSUS is considered some radical group and they
have much to say on this subject. Check it out. Thanks.

http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/protect_seals/about_the_canadian_seal_hunt/


I support the rights of the hunters to make their living, I do not agree with the method of the cull, but I am aware that the cull is necessary.
That is not flip flopping, I would hate for any of those men to lose their lives in their job.

[Sophist]

Ok, I have to ask out of curiousity to everyone who is arguing that they are against the hunt because the method of killing is inhumane... why do you feel that correctly using a hakapik or large-caliber rifle is inherently inhumane?

I have a few expert who weigh in on it's being humane, but I seriously would like to hear what it is that seems so inherently wrong about this method. It is at least as quick as a gunshot, and I feel more 'sporting' (in a way, not really sure how to say it, really) than shooting from a distant ship.

But regardless, here are some of the expert's quotes I have dredged up offa the web:

First one supporting the Canadian seal hunts, since that seems to be the only one I hear people here getting worked up about:

"The group notes that the Canadian Harp Seal Hunt is professional and highly regulated... It has the potential to serve as a model to improve humane practices and reduce animal suffering within other hunts."
---The Independent Veterinarian Working Group



And one not really in support per se, but a good point:

“The harp seal question is entirely emotional. We have to be logical. We have to aim our activity first to the endangered species... We have to be logical."
--- Jaques Cousteau



“We do not support the killing of any animals, but we do consider the slaughter of the seals in Newfoundland to be humane.”
---Trevor Scott, Executive Director of the International Society for the Protection of Animals



“As far as we are concerned the present regulations ensure that the best possible methods of humane killing are adhered to. Humane killing is not an issue.”
--- The Canadian Federation of Humane Societies


“I have examined the craniums of thousands of seal pups and I have never observed one that did not have massive hemorrhage in the brain, which is an indication that the animal was rendered unconscious and therefore incapable of feeling any pain...
Death was rapid and humane. The choice of killing method must favour the seal and not the observer."
---Dr. H.C. Roswell, DVM – Dept. of Pathology – University of Ottawa and founder of the Canadian Council on Animal Care



“The Gulf of St. Lawrence seal hunt as it is now conducted and as far as the young seals are concerned, is without a doubt one of the most humane slaughtering operations I have ever witnessed.
The greatest immorality in the seal hunting controversy has been the reckless, deliberate campaign of racial discrimination and hatred which has been deliberately fostered against the people of Newfoundland and of Canada by groups and individuals whose primary aim is to raise funds, particularly in the United States and Europe.”
---Tom Hughes, Executive Vice-President of the Ontario Humane Societies and former British Columbia SPCA executive.


“From a total of 509 animals examined at the time, there was reported to be only one other case of the animal not being rendered unconscious. This appears to be a fantastically high average of humane killing”.
---Dr. Keith Ronald – Dean of the College of biological science – university of Guelph


/// sorry, lotsa editing for typos and such.

[DrKym]

Sophist,
I have not read nor had time to go through the information, if it is as swift and humane as you are describing then I will change my view. My issue is simply with the amount of bloodshed. I hunt deer, moose and most other viable game each year, I use the most effective means of killing quickly and humanely. I have never hunted a seal, nor would I, I can only base what I know of hunting the animals I know with what I have seen in media. Therefore I am not as qualified to make a judgement just an opinion, after I read the information you have posted, may I get back with you on the method used?

[buttercup132]

Sophist and others who agree with her, you say that the hunters have families they are brothers and fathers. So are the seals. Animals grieve too. The hunters deserve to have everything done to them as they have done to the seals. That's my thought anyways.

And just for the record my post before I never said they deserved to die.

[wombat2u2004]

Sophist and others who agree with her, you say that the hunters have families they are brothers and fathers. So are the seals. Animals grieve too. The hunters deserve to have everything done to them as they have done to the seals. That's my thought anyways.

And just for the record my post before I never said they deserved to die.

Well said Buttercup !!! I completely agree with you.
As for the opinions of experts ......experts in what ????
Ohhhhhhh "" I inspected three dead baby seals and they were killed humanely, therefore in my professional opinion, the other 6 gazillion of them were killed in the same way"
What poppycock !!!!!! Experts are no different than anyone else in this world, they sell whatever they want their client to hear, for the dollar. I wonder how many fat little checks they got from fishing companies to say what they do.
We here in Australia have been exporting LIVE cattle and sheep to other countries for meat for years and years.....of course we have those experts who tell us that those livestock are killed humanely....until of course someone had the nounce to expose the fraud for what it was, and personally video'd some cretin hamstringing those beasts for his own personal pleasure.
I'm sure....they have SOME professionals culling those seals, but I'd bet my butt to a dollar, we got some real looney toon butchers out there, who just LOVE doing what they do.
But as for culling generally, I still have not been convinced that culling is necessary....I will not ever be swayed by the reply I received by our fine member Dr Goodnow (no offence Doc), to the tune of "Well thats just the way it is". Nope....not substantial enuf.
As for the argument that we NEED to cull them so they won't starve to death and die of disease and all of those other terrible things that happen to baby seals.....well why stop there ???? Let's do that to every other specie of life that exists on this planet should we ASSUME that their quality of life is compromised.......but we don't do we ???? Oh no....we don't, we only pick those specie to thin out when our purpose dictates to us that there are dollars to be made.
Wombat

[DrKym]

Wom, you want it to stop? then address the underlying issues.

Sorry if my answer came off as it is just the way it is to paraphrase you. However, the emotional issues of dead seals won't abate until the fisheries are called to task to find other fishing lanes.

These men most of whom are doing a job, whether they enjoy it or not I cannot say, do not deserve to die, or for their children to grow fatherless. The seals don't deserve their fate either.

Until a balance is reached, then there will be those that wish harm and hatred upon the men that carry out the task, and those that feel it is un-needed to begin with.

The underlying issue needs to be addressed and rectified,

[wombat2u2004]

Wom, you want it to stop? then address the underlying issues.

Sorry if my answer came off as it is just the way it is to paraphrase you. However, the emotional issues of dead seals won't abate until the fisheries are called to task to find other fishing lanes.

These men most of whom are doing a job, whether they enjoy it or not I cannot say, do not deserve to die, or for their children to grow fatherless. The seals don't deserve their fate either.

Until a balance is reached, then there will be those that wish harm and hatred upon the men that carry out the task, and those that feel it is un-needed to begin with.

The underlying issue needs to be addressed and rectified,

I must point out here Doc, that I do NOT wish death upon those who carry out this periodical butchering, nor from what I have read here on this thread does anyone else. I'm sure we just simply want this practice to end.
And as for underlying issues ???? Have I not already addressed that ????
The total waste of foodstuffs on this planet because those who produce it have not the means to distribute it amongst those who would go hungry ????
Or because it's simply uneconomical for them to do so ????
This whole practice of culling is all about money....nothing more and nothing less....so just how are we to address the underlying issue of greed ???
The fishermen compete with the seals, to see how big a catch they can get.......solution ??? The seals get more....so lets kill the seals....thats human greed in all of it's glory at work here.
If the world ran out of oil.....would oil workers just sit on a rock and scratch their heads and wait until they died ???? I think not, they'd go out and get another job.
Wom

[Cataholic]

I cannot support the seal 'hunters'. It is inhumane, and all the argument of "they can't reason", "they die quick enough", "humans need it", just doesn't cut it for me. Kind of like saying I have the right to club to death the man lying in a coma. Heck, he can't feel it, right? Animals *deserve* dignity, respect, compassion, humane treatment. All animals. Humans *should* know better. Sadly, that little green thing gets in the way. And, I am not referring to jealousy.

What I find amazing, and I don't really mean that in a positive light, is the one or two posters in this thread that have gone to significant length to argue in favor of the "hunt". I find it sickening in its own sense.

[catlady1945]

I cannot support the seal 'hunters'. It is inhumane, and all the argument of "they can't reason", "they die quick enough", "humans need it", just doesn't cut it for me. Kind of like saying I have the right to club to death the man lying in a coma. Heck, he can't feel it, right? Animals *deserve* dignity, respect, compassion, humane treatment. All animals. Humans *should* know better. Sadly, that little green thing gets in the way. And, I am not referring to jealousy.

What I find amazing, and I don't really mean that in a positive light, is the one or two posters in this thread that have gone to significant length to argue in favor of the "hunt". I find it sickening in its own sense.

Too true!!! I am sick of this hunt. It is unnecessary and inhumane. I know people have to make a living, and they have been doing this for years -- but come on, there ARE other ways.

I am also sick of people who hunt for "sport" - yeah, really sporting to use an assault rifle on a deer.

[sparks19]

Too true!!! I am sick of this hunt. It is unnecessary and inhumane. I know people have to make a living, and they have been doing this for years -- but come on, there ARE other ways.

I am also sick of people who hunt for "sport" - yeah, really sporting to use an assault rifle on a deer.


That deer hunt you hate so much feeds a lot of starving people..... it's not all just to have a rack to hang on the wall. Many many hunters donate their meat to charities that give it to starving families.

and it prevents a lot of deer from starving to death in the winter. YOu may think it's a load of crap.... but it's true.... deer starve to death ALL the time around here because they are SO over populated they can't find enough to eat in the winter. Especially if the summer has a drought.... nothing grows.

[Catty1]

"underlying causes"

Aside from the huge picture ones, try looking up the unemployment stats and income levels in Newfoundland.

Bleak. Very bleak.

I am not saying the seal hunt is the best solution at all. But it means money to buy food and other luxuries...

[Sophist]

What I find amazing, and I don't really mean that in a positive light, is the one or two posters in this thread that have gone to significant length to argue in favor of the "hunt". I find it sickening in its own sense.



Well, I am sorry you react that way to someone for not sharing your opinion.

As far as the lengths I have gone to, well... I am sorry, but I always try to justify my positions with facts and reason. Just a little quirk of mine.


And when I see people who I think could be using their passion and energy for a lot of good if they were only better informed, I like to try to inform them if I can, or at least make them aware of other view points.


If you can provide some logical counter-arguments, instead of merely emotional ones, I'd be glad to listen and consider them.

[Sophist]

Well said Buttercup !!! I completely agree with you.
As for the opinions of experts ......experts in what ????
Ohhhhhhh "" I inspected three dead baby seals and they were killed humanely, therefore in my professional opinion, the other 6 gazillion of them were killed in the same way"
What poppycock !!!!!! Experts are no different than anyone else in this world, they sell whatever they want their client to hear, for the dollar. I wonder how many fat little checks they got from fishing companies to say what they do.
We here in Australia have been exporting LIVE cattle and sheep to other countries for meat for years and years.....of course we have those experts who tell us that those livestock are killed humanely....until of course someone had the nounce to expose the fraud for what it was, and personally video'd some cretin hamstringing those beasts for his own personal pleasure.
I'm sure....they have SOME professionals culling those seals, but I'd bet my butt to a dollar, we got some real looney toon butchers out there, who just LOVE doing what they do.
But as for culling generally, I still have not been convinced that culling is necessary....I will not ever be swayed by the reply I received by our fine member Dr Goodnow (no offence Doc), to the tune of "Well thats just the way it is". Nope....not substantial enuf.
As for the argument that we NEED to cull them so they won't starve to death and die of disease and all of those other terrible things that happen to baby seals.....well why stop there ???? Let's do that to every other specie of life that exists on this planet should we ASSUME that their quality of life is compromised.......but we don't do we ???? Oh no....we don't, we only pick those specie to thin out when our purpose dictates to us that there are dollars to be made.
Wombat

We DO cull a lot of other over-populated species, and for a lot of them there isn't much bank in it.

If you look at the studies, many more than three seals were inspected by each individual. Please attack the actual arguments presented, instead of making up ones that are easier to refute.

I think it is very interesting that the mere fact that they disagree with you makes people like Costeau and doctors who have dedicated their lives to animal protection and care inherently corrupt and untrustworthy.

As far as the random nut argument goes... if someone is insane enough to really want to torture animals just for thier own sick pleasure, I really don't see them buying in to the seal hunt and taking a lot of time and preparation to make the trip to go to a seal hunt policed by the people who run the hunt, the other hunters, lots of media attention, and TONS of animal rights groups. They're much more likely to pick up a free animal off of Craigslist. If you want to prevent wackos who torture animals, the seal hunt is one of the areas least deserving of your energy.


I do have to say, I agree with you about the often outrageously inhumane slaughter methods. I feel that the seal hunt is much more humane and monitired than any slaughterhouse I have ever heard of, and many experts have attested to the same thing (including Jacques Costeau). I would offer evidence, but I guess there isn't much of a point if anyone who can't be bullied into sharing your emotional take on an issue is evil.

[Sophist]

Sophist and others who agree with her, you say that the hunters have families they are brothers and fathers. So are the seals. Animals grieve too. The hunters deserve to have everything done to them as they have done to the seals. That's my thought anyways.

And just for the record my post before I never said they deserved to die.


Actually, the harp seal pups can't be culled until after a certain molt, which isn't finished until the pups are more than a month old.

All the mothers memorize their pups scent in the first day or two, and then really only have contact with them when they need to nurse. It has been established that during the maternal care period, pups spend about 5% of their time with their mother, and then only to feed. If a pup loses its mother, it is allowed to starve by the other mothers, who will only give milk by the scent.

The mothers abandon their pups completely by the time they are two weeks old (usually by 12 days old). The females breed two weeks after giving birth, and then take off and never have anything to do with their pups again. By the time of culling, the mothers are pretty much all expecting again and long gone.

There is no paternal involvement.

:confused: Where is the 'broken family' element coming in? They migrate together to whelp and breed, and that is as much of a connection as the seals ever have with each other.

Can an animal with no apparent familial bonding, who abandons its offspring for good and has no further contact, really be asserted to experience grief over the death? There is really no evidence to support that the families would even have an awareness of the death.

These mothers molt, then leave the whelping area where the pups remain for at least a year until their next pup is ready to be born.


Don't get me wrong, I do believe animals are capable of grief. I just don't think that is likely to be the case in this scenario. Just because animals can think and feel does not mean they all think and feel exactly the same way humans do.


And lastly, if you are arguing that the seals are fathers and brothers who love each other, and are being killed and left grieving, and then say in the same breath that the hunters deserve the same... how is that not saying the hunters and/or their families deserve to die?

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Well, I am sorry you react that way to someone for not sharing your opinion.

As far as the lengths I have gone to, well... I am sorry, but I always try to justify my positions with facts and reason. Just a little quirk of mine.


And when I see people who I think could be using their passion and energy for a lot of good if they were only better informed, I like to try to inform them if I can, or at least make them aware of other view points.


If you can provide some logical counter-arguments, instead of merely emotional ones, I'd be glad to listen and consider them.
Wow, you just spent the last four pages vehemently and descriptively defending baby seal clubbing. If I believed in it, I'd have to say that's pretty bad karma.

Seriously "humane" or not (which, I really feel should not be an adjective used in conjunction with killing), I think hunting is such a lazy and ignorant way to "control" an animal population. What about setting up more undisturbed habitat and introducing more natural predators?

[Sophist]

Wow, you just spent the last four pages vehemently and descriptively defending baby seal clubbing. If I believed in it, I'd have to say that's pretty bad karma.

Seriously "humane" or not (which, I really feel should not be an adjective used in conjunction with killing), I think hunting is such a lazy and ignorant way to "control" an animal population. What about setting up more undisturbed habitat and introducing more natural predators?


Karma is your counter-argument? Meh :D .

Humane should not be used in conjunction with killing... does that also apply to terminally ill pets being euthanized?

Have you given any thought to the logistics of your solutions? I will certainly think on it, but just out of curiousity... what land would you clear? How would you convince the seals to whelp and molt there? You realize it is a migratory species, so one area would be totally insufficient, right?

More natural predators... which predators would you boost, and how? What breeding programs, how would you limit it's impact on the predator populations extant? Do you know what a disaster trying to introduce more predators can be?

Lots of concerns with that option... plus, again, the people who use the meat, fur, oil, and pharmaceutical products are still going to find some way to meet those 'needs'. Any suggestions for them? More farmed animals? How is THAT a better option?

[columbine]

Seriously "humane" or not (which, I really feel should not be an adjective used in conjunction with killing), I think hunting is such a lazy and ignorant way to "control" an animal population. What about setting up more undisturbed habitat and introducing more natural predators?Or even enforcing existing regulations against habitat-destroying fishing practices (bottom-dragging, fishing in spawning grounds) that net huge short-term profits but destroy the underpinnings of the fishery that would otherwise be both keeping the seals from starving and the humans from having to hunt them to feed their families?

Oh, that would cost money and keep somebody from being reelected. Forget it. :mad:

Love, Columbine

[wombat2u2004]

We DO cull a lot of other over-populated species, and for a lot of them there isn't much bank in it.

If you look at the studies, many more than three seals were inspected by each individual. Please attack the actual arguments presented, instead of making up ones that are easier to refute.

I think it is very interesting that the mere fact that they disagree with you makes people like Costeau and doctors who have dedicated their lives to animal protection and care inherently corrupt and untrustworthy.

As far as the random nut argument goes... if someone is insane enough to really want to torture animals just for thier own sick pleasure, I really don't see them buying in to the seal hunt and taking a lot of time and preparation to make the trip to go to a seal hunt policed by the people who run the hunt, the other hunters, lots of media attention, and TONS of animal rights groups. They're much more likely to pick up a free animal off of Craigslist. If you want to prevent wackos who torture animals, the seal hunt is one of the areas least deserving of your energy.


I do have to say, I agree with you about the often outrageously inhumane slaughter methods. I feel that the seal hunt is much more humane and monitired than any slaughterhouse I have ever heard of, and many experts have attested to the same thing (including Jacques Costeau). I would offer evidence, but I guess there isn't much of a point if anyone who can't be bullied into sharing your emotional take on an issue is evil.

Bullied ??? Evil ???? You're on the wrong side of the fence ol fella !!!!
Wombat

[DrKym]

"underlying causes"

Aside from the huge picture ones, try looking up the unemployment stats and income levels in Newfoundland.

Bleak. Very bleak.

I am not saying the seal hunt is the best solution at all. But it means money to buy food and other luxuries...
Candace my point is exactly that...........I have not had time to read the humane or not methods involved. However I do not feel any of these people get up saying YAY I get to kill a seal or 20 today.....................It is a job not much different fronm the people that inject our companion animals on a daily basis. I do not believe they get up and over coffee say well I am off to inject a few dogs maybe several cats great day ahead of me Love ya bye hun.................... :(

[lizbud]

Well, I am sorry you react that way to someone for not sharing your opinion.

As far as the lengths I have gone to, well... I am sorry, but I always try to justify my positions with facts and reason. Just a little quirk of mine.



Well this sounds like a smart ass answer, if I've ever hear one. :rolleyes:


I find it very strange that you cannot understand people would be a little
emotional on the subject of animals suffering & dying in a horrible way.Let
me just say, I find your not understanding that fact to be very strange and
unsettling.

p.s. Your profile lists no animals at all, don't you have any pets?

[Sophist]

Well this sounds like a smart ass answer, if I've ever hear one. :rolleyes:


I find it very strange that you cannot understand people would be a little
emotional on the subject of animals suffering & dying in a horrible way.Let
me just say, I find your not understanding that fact to be very strange and
unsettling.

p.s. Your profile lists no animals at all, don't you have any pets?


Yes, I have previously shared pictures of my three dogs and one of my snakes. I have other pets, but haven't got around to sharing them yet (their photos, anyway). In addition, I also do rescue work, both through shelters and outside of shelters since there are none in my city that will work with reptiles.


I don't think I have ever said it was not an emotional thing or that I didn't understand being emotional about it. I simply assert that logic should be incorporated into forming deep-seated opinions, and really should be used to carry on debates.

In fact, I have repeatedly reiterated that it is a horrifying thing. I just don't think that that makes it okay to ignore the facts, or to blind yourself to the unfortunately very reasonable elements of it. There are both drawbacks and positive factors here. It provides meat, oil, elements to be used in pharmaceuticals, income, population control, and fills the bloody desire for furs for people to parade around in, which would otherwise be filled much more cruelly using farmed animals.

In addition, if everyone here is this passionate about it, then that could be a lot of energy put in to changing the worst aspects of the hunt in a reasonable way. But putting all that energy into just futily vilifying the hunters or saying that the hunt should be banned, or the tools banned, it just isn't going to help. If PETA and all their money, and lots of high-profile media outlets and celebrities who people listen to just because they are rich and famous can't accomplish that, then PT really can't hope to either.

If you want to create any sort of change or difference, you have to first understand the real motivations behind this hunt. It isn't 100% for money and sickos getting their jollies. You have to understand that, and choose your battles carefully and logically, and try to lobby for change in the areas that make sense and are likely to actually be listened to.

Just out of curiousity, I have actually researched this a lot and written letters and recieved responses from several organizations involved in Canada on both sides trying to understand how I can influence this and the areas it is most needed in, and the ways in which to accomplish it... how many of the people who are so quick to attack me for approaching this rationally have done anything but rant on PT about it? I am not going to be so arrogant as to assume none of you have done anything else, but I would really like to know how you have tried, and what response you got, if any.

I have never said the seal hunt was ok, a perfect little system with no problems, no moral uncertainties, nothing but rainbows and butterflies... I am an animal lover despite insinuations to the contrary. I do work to help animals around me, and I try to find ways to work on problems like this. And to be perfectly honest, the people who come out swinging and raving based only on emotions, spreading more ugliness, with no idea of any of the inter-connected problems make the problems a lot worse, because they get people sincerely trying to work out the best compromises branded as crazy animal nuts also, and they make those in positions to effect change less and less inclined to listen.

If you don't like the hunt, do something about it. But be smart and somewhat rational about it. Weigh at least a little bit of human interest in with the animal's interest. Listen to your own arguments and really think about whether or not someone using your words and reasoning could convince you of something you weren't certain about. Don't just sit here and try to make me agree with you because it makes you feel like you've made a difference and done the right thing.

Although if you'd really like to continue here, I would be more than happy to do so. When I am sincerely interested in an issue, I never tire of it. I would love any facts, figures, or expert opinions you can provide me that refute my arguments. Any new or convincing argument that I have to work into my view will only make my next letter to Canada, my local newspaper or underground 'zine that much more thought out and complete, so please share anything you have.

:p Well, as I pretty much said in my first post, people think that not being hate-filled about this makes me a bad animal lover. Oh, well. I am confident in what I do for animals, and how I feel about animals. That is good enough to give me peace of mind about the issue. So to everyone discussing karma, hinting that I don't even own pets, etc... that line of attack isn't going to work on me. I care too much about this issue to flip out. Flipping out just makes it that much easier for people to write off everything you feel and say as rubbish. I'll maintain and hope that those who have shown a somewhat open mind and a desire to learn more will study up on all aspects and come to their own well-informed conclusions.

[catlady1945]

That deer hunt you hate so much feeds a lot of starving people..... it's not all just to have a rack to hang on the wall. Many many hunters donate their meat to charities that give it to starving families.

and it prevents a lot of deer from starving to death in the winter. YOu may think it's a load of crap.... but it's true.... deer starve to death ALL the time around here because they are SO over populated they can't find enough to eat in the winter. Especially if the summer has a drought.... nothing grows.


Yes.....those hunters are real humanitarians!

[columbine]

In fact, I have repeatedly reiterated that it is a horrifying thing. I just don't think that that makes it okay to ignore the facts, or to blind yourself to the unfortunately very reasonable elements of it. There are both drawbacks and positive factors here. It provides meat, oil, elements to be used in pharmaceuticals, income, population control, and fills the bloody desire for furs for people to parade around in, which would otherwise be filled much more cruelly using farmed animals.And, from the humans' perspective, it can mean the difference between staying in your own house and eking out a meagre but honest subsistence, or moving to the city and going on public assistance. It may not sound like a big deal to modern city-dwellers, but if you grow up in a culture whose underpinnings are the work ethic, religion, the work ethic, and the work ethic, public assistance is tantamount to pronouncing yourself morally bankrupt and functionally dead, unworthy of your family and a traitor to everything you care about.

Seals aren't endangered, except by the food shortage humans caused by unsustainable fishing. To a Newfoundlander, a seal is like a deer would be to most of us down here.

A lot of the debate is centered around outdated and outright falsified graphics & videos circulated by people like Paul Watson of the Sea Shepherd, who get extremely rich by implying that baby seals are still hunted before they're old enough to swim (or to look like a wild animal instead of a cuddly toy). It's a high-profit business, built around fleecing the overprivileged and undereducated, and unfortunate in that it discredits real environmentalists everywhere.

Love, Columbine

[Catty1]

Vegetarians wear leather shoes. It's the real world, folks.

As Sophist said - what are you actually doing to stop this? A Google search will turn up lots of government contacts.

www.gov.gc.ca

Columbine - you are right on with your last post. Few of us here have been starving and had a family to support. Our priorities would change, in that case, I am sure.

[Marigold2]

The only way to stop this is to go to the seal hunt and make a human wall around the seals. If the hunters start to club them they will have to be physically stopped by our own clubs. How many would be willing to go and do this? Thousands of people would be needed 24/7. I can't think of any other way but to actually be there and confront the killers. For that is what hunters are, they are killers. They take life. The worth of any life is up for everyones soul to pondor. One person calls it a hunt, one calls it murder. Be it dog, cat, horse, seal or even a person. One person kills another because they think that person should die or is worthless. Same with abortion. To some it is a baby to others it is nothing but a group of cells. One has to search ones soul and look into the eyes of the victim. The hunters see this as a way of life not as murder. This battle will rage on as long as people need or want animals for meat, fur..........
It is part of our life here on planet earth. Are the cows, pigs, chickens we eat treated any better. I believe they are. They aren't slowly beaten to death while they beg for mercy.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Vegetarians wear leather shoes. It's the real world, folks.

Just where do you get that information? :rolleyes:

Most vegetarians DO NOT wear animal products. I certainly don't...

[buttercup132]

Wow this thread has become a big argument. Yes I said SEALS only but what about the deer? What about the bunnies? What about all the other animals who stay together family like. Yes some animals abandon their babies but duh so do people. You are crazy lady...

[Argranade]

This is so sad,

Global Warming is causing seals to drown so they should STOP this killing!

I don't wish for anyone to die but it's hard not to hate these people.

I would honestly LOVE to club them all in the head! :D

I don't mind those inuit's who hunt the seals for there supply of food as they have done this for YEARS!

[angelbow20]

Wow this thread has become a big argument. Yes I said SEALS only but what about the deer? What about the bunnies? What about all the other animals who stay together family like. Yes some animals abandon their babies but duh so do people. You are crazy lady...


Are you calling sophist Crazy? thats now right if you are!!!

[Catty1]

The vegetarians wearing leather shoes comment I got from a strip called Clear Blue Water. It is in the last several days.

The idea being, not ALL do, by any means. But that it is not a perfect world and there are paradoxes in life.

I also think that vegetarians are the only people who really can rightfully condemn this hunt, in that the rest of us eat animal products that have been 'processed' in a slaughterhouse, where we don't see what happens.

Can you imagine if there were as many slaughterhouse tv spots as there are for the seals? Interesting thought...

[Cataholic]

I do not eat meat for several reasons- the primary one concering the way the animals are 'slaughtered'. I do not find it humane. I have seen the videos and read the literature. I have had people remark to me, "do you think you are making any difference"? In my mind, I am.

I have also heard, but, cannot state for certain, that the leather used (excluding the exotics) in shoes/handbags, clothing (pants, skirts) is a by-product, and the animal has been killed for meat, not for the article of clothing.

Does it make a difference? It does to me, but, for the record, I am a pretty big wearer of 'pleather' shoes...just too hard on them to pay anything more than I have to.

I do not buy leather articles, nor shun them necessarily. However, as I have become more enlightened on the subject, I do find my purchases tend to be more 'humane' than not. Am I up for some award? Don't think so, but, I do strongly disagree with the argument that seal hunting, or any other species hunted by humans, is some humanitarian effort on behalf of the hunter, and that this is all just a big ol' cheap way to feed the family argument.

Ain't nothin' sporty about killing. As I have said other times, when someone tells me they 'hunt', I have an immediate mind change about that person. Is that right? Is that judgmental? Absolutely. Is it my 'right'? Absolutely. Hey, if that person has a right to kill an animal with a gun, I get the right to dislike the act and the actor.

[Miss Z]

My views on hunting of any kind have got me into trouble before so I won't go into details. Lets just say I accept no excuses for killing another creature.

Sophist, I read your arguement with interest and can allow you to keep your own views, however I am not convinced about hackapicks. Sure, perhaps when used correctly they can kill a baby seal instantly, and when you think about it, that's easy to do even with a club. When the back end of the skull is smashed and the spinal cord (along with vital parts of the brain, can't remember the exact scientific name for the life of me) are damaged beyond repair. One dead seal pup.

However, who's to say these hunters hit the bullseye every time? I bet they don't even get one out of ten. It's like shooting yourself in the head, sounds simple enough, but there's actually a specific place to shoot to kill yourself instantaneously. I'm sure the sight of a pulpy, bloodied seal carcass is the evidence of a couple of misses.

Well said Buttercup !!! I completely agree with you.

As for the opinions of experts ......experts in what ????
Ohhhhhhh "" I inspected three dead baby seals and they were killed humanely, therefore in my professional opinion, the other 6 gazillion of them were killed in the same way"
What poppycock !!!!!! Experts are no different than anyone else in this world, they sell whatever they want their client to hear, for the dollar. I wonder how many fat little checks they got from fishing companies to say what they do.
We here in Australia have been exporting LIVE cattle and sheep to other countries for meat for years and years.....of course we have those experts who tell us that those livestock are killed humanely....until of course someone had the nounce to expose the fraud for what it was, and personally video'd some cretin hamstringing those beasts for his own personal pleasure.
I'm sure....they have SOME professionals culling those seals, but I'd bet my butt to a dollar, we got some real looney toon butchers out there, who just LOVE doing what they do.
But as for culling generally, I still have not been convinced that culling is necessary....I will not ever be swayed by the reply I received by our fine member Dr Goodnow (no offence Doc), to the tune of "Well thats just the way it is". Nope....not substantial enuf.
As for the argument that we NEED to cull them so they won't starve to death and die of disease and all of those other terrible things that happen to baby seals.....well why stop there ???? Let's do that to every other specie of life that exists on this planet should we ASSUME that their quality of life is compromised.......but we don't do we ???? Oh no....we don't, we only pick those specie to thin out when our purpose dictates to us that there are dollars to be made.
Wombat

Exactly. Lets face it, no other animal purposefully culls another to 'help' it. I can hear enough excuses until I'm blue in the face, but when faced with the arguement of overpopulation, well, that's humans' fault. WE are the ones who restrict a species habitat. WE are the ones who upset ecosystems by exterminating certain predators/prey for our pleasure and creating disaster by the unnatural booms of species that follows. And WE are the ones who are going to have to find a better solution than just mindless killing.

And yup, I'm vegetarian too. Don't quite know how vegetarianism got into this matter, but oh well.

[lizbud]

Your last post is much to long to quote entirely, but would like to
respond to this paragraph,

"Although if you'd really like to continue here, I would be more than happy to do so. When I am sincerely interested in an issue, I never tire of it. I would love any facts, figures, or expert opinions you can provide me that refute my arguments. Any new or convincing argument that I have to work into my view will only make my next letter to Canada, my local newspaper or underground 'zine that much more thought out and complete, so please share anything you have. "

I really would like to see & read any links or references you have used to
base your opinions on, so please enlighten me.Post any links to info you
have. Thanks.

[Puckstop31]

Ain't nothin' sporty about killing.

You obviously have never been Wild Turkey hunting... :)

But....


As I have said other times, when someone tells me they 'hunt', I have an immediate mind change about that person. Is that right? Is that judgmental? Absolutely. Is it my 'right'? Absolutely. Hey, if that person has a right to kill an animal with a gun, I get the right to dislike the act and the actor.

I applaude you for being one of the few people I know who have a anti-hunting view that are willing to say this.

[sparks19]

Wow this thread has become a big argument. Yes I said SEALS only but what about the deer? What about the bunnies? What about all the other animals who stay together family like. Yes some animals abandon their babies but duh so do people. You are crazy lady...


Well I sincerely hope you have never swatted a fly or stepped on an ant in your lifetime. if you are going to start calling someone with a differing opinion from yours "crazy" you better be squeaky clean in your quest for no killing. Nothing she said was crazy.... you just don't like her opinion. doesn't make her crazy.

But..... to wish near death for the people that are just doing their jobs makes you no better than the hunters in which you are condemning. Sure no one said "death" straight out..... but when you are happy they are stuck out in the ice and likely will run out of food if they don't freeze to death first..... to me that is saying you are happy that they might die. These people are just trying to make a living. Does it make what they are doing right? NO.... but rest assured if it came down to feeding my family or starving my children to death because I can no longer afford food.... you bet your arse I will be out there doing what I can to make ends meet. It is easy to sit back and say how wrong it is to do it to make ends meet when we are in a place that has plenty of work available.... to us..... a crappy job is McDonalds.

[angelbow20]

Well I sincerely hope you have never swatted a fly or stepped on an ant in your lifetime. if you are going to start calling someone with a differing opinion from yours "crazy" you better be squeaky clean in your quest for no killing. Nothing she said was crazy.... you just don't like her opinion. doesn't make her crazy.

But..... to wish near death for the people that are just doing their jobs makes you no better than the hunters in which you are condemning. Sure no one said "death" straight out..... but when you are happy they are stuck out in the ice and likely will run out of food if they don't freeze to death first..... to me that is saying you are happy that they might die. These people are just trying to make a living. Does it make what they are doing right? NO.... but rest assured if it came down to feeding my family or starving my children to death because I can no longer afford food.... you bet your arse I will be out there doing what I can to make ends meet. It is easy to sit back and say how wrong it is to do it to make ends meet when we are in a place that has plenty of work available.... to us..... a crappy job is McDonalds.



I agree with you 100 percent!

[Argranade]

You obviously have never been Wild Turkey hunting... :)
I don't belive hunting any living thing should be sporty or fun,

That's like saying '' You obviously have never been dog hunting''

Turkeys & Dogs can both feel pain in the same way, there should be no difference.

Just to make things clear I'm not saying your going to shoot dogs I'm just giving an exsample.

I'm only up for hunting if you need to use the animals for food, I mean the HOLE animal .. don't just chop off it's head, skin the fur and leave the rest of the carcass. Sometimes in casses animals do over populate but that's nature and I would rather leave it be but of course that's not going to happen with humans around.

[sparks19]

I don't belive hunting any living thing should be sporty or fun,

That's like saying '' You obviously have never been dog hunting''

Turkeys & Dogs can both feel pain in the same way, there should be no difference.

Just to make things clear I'm not saying your going to shoot dogs I'm just giving an exsample.

I'm only up for hunting if you need to use the animals for food, I mean the HOLE animal .. don't just chop off it's head, skin the fur and leave the rest of the carcass. Sometimes in casses animals do over populate but that's nature and I would rather leave it be but of course that's not going to happen with humans around.


he meant that it was not just as easy as firing your weapon blindly into the forest as some people believe hunting is. Turkey hunting actually requires hours of work.

But just think..... some of those people that hunt are probably buying less store bought meat from animals that come from slaughterhouses etc... etc. I have heard people say that if you are going to eat meat you should eat free range because they are treated more humanely.... well... what is more free range than that :D

[lizbud]

Wow this thread has become a big argument. Yes I said SEALS only but what about the deer? What about the bunnies? What about all the other animals who stay together family like. Yes some animals abandon their babies but duh so do people. You are crazy lady...



This thread is soooo NOT an argument. Your calling people names just might turn it into one. Please don't do that.

This is, I hope, not a debate, not an argument, but an adult discussion of
seals & the seal cull. Thanks.

[wombat2u2004]

But just think..... some of those people that hunt are probably buying less store bought meat from animals that come from slaughterhouses etc... etc. I have heard people say that if you are going to eat meat you should eat free range because they are treated more humanely.... well... what is more free range than that :D

SOME of those people ????? So what you are saying is that the others are just doing it for fun....???? Right ????
And exactly HOW could someone hunting something in the wild be more humane than those who kill abbatoir slaughtered animals ???? They have laws in place exactly how animals are killed in slaughterhouses, and I know for a fact that it is VERY humane. As for hunting....humane ??? Nope, not buying into that one.....I've seen the results of too many hunts in my life, a wounded animal is sometimes tracked for hours and hours, trying to escape with half of it's gut hanging out, and even sometimes the hunters lose the animal, or simply just couldn't be bothered to put in the time necessary to finish the hunt. Some of these animals take weeks to die......I have seen it....many times. If you think for one moment that hunters are humane, then you should have another think coming. How many hunters do you know who are such fantastic shots that we have a "one shot, instantaneous kill" situation. NOT very many.

As for jobs required by the people of Newfoundland, which is their reason to continue these hunts.....well if my memory serves me right....just how humane were the coal pits of Cape Breton ???? Where children no more than 12 years old worked their lives away in the coal mines ???? Only to die of exhaustion or coughing their blood filled lungs up, to eke out a living, so that they could actually have something to eat ??? What for ??? So that someone could get rich !!!! Someone who didn't give a damn about those kids lives. Tragic ???? You betcha !!!! So why did they stop that ???? If responsible people hadn't stepped in at the time....I'll bet my butt that that practice would still be considered by those who care nothing about making money ANY way they can. And so it is the same now with the seal pups.....the dollars are involved, it's as simple as that.

Anyway....who are we to play God ???? To say who or what dies, or who and what lives ???
Wom

[Marigold2]

I don't think I have ever seen a homeless person hunt. Is that a big problem in the city, seeing homeless people with rifles shooting stray dogs, cats, rats, birds for food? They are usually in the city panhandling or going to a food bank. I grew up in the country and I have never met anyone who had to hunt for food. They wanted to but didn't need to meat to live. Plant a veggie garden, can some veggies for God's sake.
These seal hunters don't give a damn how those seals die. They are beating them to death while these animals are screaming and crying in pain. They don't care if that baby dies the first blow or the 5 or 10th. They are there for the money. It doesn't matter how the seal dies, just that they make their quoto. There are plenty of other ways to make a living them beating a baby to death. And if they are too stupid to figure that out do us a favor and don't have kids.
I have no respect for hunters or murderes as I call them. Nor would I help one who is starving or bleeding to death. I have no problem walking away from a dying hunter. Do I put an animals life in front of a person? Yes I would. If there was a rapist or drug dealer, child molester in a burning building and a pet hamster and I only had time to get one out, hey I'm picking the hamster. That sweet innocent creature never harmed anyone, the person did. A worthless, evil, mean person's life is not worth anything.
Does the mother dog or mommy cat love her babies any less, often they love their babies more then humans. They don't stab, burn, murder, abuse, abandon, molest their kids. We as humans do hundreds of times a day.
Oh and ants and fleas are insects not animals. They don't have the same nerve receptors so I have no problem sleeping if I step on an ant. Dead ant, dead ant, dead ant, deat ant dead ant.....lalalalalla

[sparks19]

SOME of those people ????? So what you are saying is that the others are just doing it for fun....???? Right ????
And exactly HOW could someone hunting something in the wild be more humane than those who kill abbatoir slaughtered animals ???? They have laws in place exactly how animals are killed in slaughterhouses, and I know for a fact that it is VERY humane. As for hunting....humane ??? Nope, not buying into that one.....I've seen the results of too many hunts in my life, a wounded animal is sometimes tracked for hours and hours, trying to escape with half of it's gut hanging out, and even sometimes the hunters lose the animal, or simply just couldn't be bothered to put in the time necessary to finish the hunt. Some of these animals take weeks to die......I have seen it....many times. If you think for one moment that hunters are humane, then you should have another think coming. How many hunters do you know who are such fantastic shots that we have a "one shot, instantaneous kill" situation. NOT very many.

As for jobs required by the people of Newfoundland, which is their reason to continue these hunts.....well if my memory serves me right....just how humane were the coal pits of Cape Breton ???? Where children no more than 12 years old worked their lives away in the coal mines ???? Only to die of exhaustion or coughing their blood filled lungs up, to eke out a living, so that they could actually have something to eat ??? What for ??? So that someone could get rich !!!! Someone who didn't give a damn about those kids lives. Tragic ???? You betcha !!!! So why did they stop that ???? If responsible people hadn't stepped in at the time....I'll bet my butt that that practice would still be considered by those who care nothing about making money ANY way they can. And so it is the same now with the seal pups.....the dollars are involved, it's as simple as that.

Anyway....who are we to play God ???? To say who or what dies, or who and what lives ???
Wom

Well I can't say all of the hunters because then you would be saying "well how could you know if all hunters do that" it's a lose lose situation ;)

and around here farm raised animals are NOT always treated humanely.... why do you think there is a big bruhaha about taking free range meat over "regular" meat. Because they live more humane lives.... they are killed FAR more humanely. In many cases here the cows that are slaughtered are killed very inhumanely. It has even gone so far in some places to where the cows are not put to death before the slaughter starts.....

I guess I am just lucky to be surrounded by responsible hunters. I have never known any of our friends to wound and animal and not put it out of it's misery and just let it go. No one I know does that.... is that to say it doesn't happen? of course not.

They put a stop to Cape Breton because they were 12 year old kids.... there are labour laws. A bunch of adults going out to do a job to support their families is not NEARLY in the same group as forcing children to work in mines and die. that's like comparing apples to french fries. Again I say.... if it came down to my family starving to death or clubbing seals to put food on my table.... I would pick feeding my starving children over the seals. In that case I would never EVER put an animals life before my families life.

Marigold.... you may not see many homeless people out hunting.... but MANY of those homeless people are fed from the meat that hunters get. Many many hunters donate their "extra" meat to charities that distribute that meat to homeless shelters and other charities.

but you say you wouldn't help someone who was a hunter if they were dying.... by all means that is your choice.... but I don't know many hunters around here that would not help an animal that was suffering. You think they are just cold blooded killers who just go out and shoot shoot shoot.... but I know of more than one who has come across an animal that was injured or sick and taken it somewhere to get it help. if the animal was in terrible condition then they would put it out of its misery.

So it's ok to kill insects.... they aren't animals so they don't deserve the same respect? I don't get that. how can you be for preserving one kind of life and not another? They don't have the same nerve receptors? so because they don't feel the same kind of pain it's ok? That confuses me.... you say all life is equal... unless you are an insect and then you don't matter.

But the bottom line is..... if I had to do the seal hunt to provide for my family I would a million times over. Like I said... it is easy to say how wrong it is when the worst job we can think of here is working at McDonalds or working in a field picking strawberries. but I bet if you had to feed your family you would do whatever you had to to do that. newfoundland isn't exactly job central.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Well I can't say all of the hunters because then you would be saying "well how could you know if all hunters do that" it's a lose lose situation ;)

and around here farm raised animals are NOT always treated humanely.... why do you think there is a big bruhaha about taking free range meat over "regular" meat. Because they live more humane lives.... they are killed FAR more humanely. In many cases here the cows that are slaughtered are killed very inhumanely. It has even gone so far in some places to where the cows are not put to death before the slaughter starts.....

I guess I am just lucky to be surrounded by responsible hunters. I have never known any of our friends to wound and animal and not put it out of it's misery and just let it go. No one I know does that.... is that to say it doesn't happen? of course not.

They put a stop to Cape Breton because they were 12 year old kids.... there are labour laws. A bunch of adults going out to do a job to support their families is not NEARLY in the same group as forcing children to work in mines and die. that's like comparing apples to french fries. Again I say.... if it came down to my family starving to death or clubbing seals to put food on my table.... I would pick feeding my starving children over the seals. In that case I would never EVER put an animals life before my families life.

Marigold.... you may not see many homeless people out hunting.... but MANY of those homeless people are fed from the meat that hunters get. Many many hunters donate their "extra" meat to charities that distribute that meat to homeless shelters and other charities.

but you say you wouldn't help someone who was a hunter if they were dying.... by all means that is your choice.... but I don't know many hunters around here that would not help an animal that was suffering. You think they are just cold blooded killers who just go out and shoot shoot shoot.... but I know of more than one who has come across an animal that was injured or sick and taken it somewhere to get it help. if the animal was in terrible condition then they would put it out of its misery.

So it's ok to kill insects.... they aren't animals so they don't deserve the same respect? I don't get that. how can you be for preserving one kind of life and not another? They don't have the same nerve receptors? so because they don't feel the same kind of pain it's ok? That confuses me.... you say all life is equal... unless you are an insect and then you don't matter.

But the bottom line is..... if I had to do the seal hunt to provide for my family I would a million times over. Like I said... it is easy to say how wrong it is when the worst job we can think of here is working at McDonalds or working in a field picking strawberries. but I bet if you had to feed your family you would do whatever you had to to do that. newfoundland isn't exactly job central.
Who said anything about insects? Sorry but, I didn't see anyone post that they killed bugs on their free time but they abhor any other kind of killing. There's a big difference between accidentally and unknowingly stepping on an ant and taking a rifle and blowing the head off of a turkey. Something to do with intention maybe?

And anyway, aren't you the one who thinks we all have choices, and that if people are poor, it is their own fault? If everyone has such a choice, then there they shouldn't have to ever choose to take such an awful job- if they do, it's their fault, right? Because people who work for their money deserve their money more...we don't want poor people stealing from us decent hard working people.

I agree that cows and other animals raised for slaugther lead worse lives than those in the wild- but I also don't agree with hunting. But, I also don't eat meat of any kind. Since you find slaughterhouse practices so horrible, do you likewise abstain from non "free range" meat?

[RICHARD]

Not a huge fan of seal clubbing or any kind of clubbing in general.

I hate the two drink minimum rules.


-----------

I like these threads because they really show the passion of the posters.

A few little observations..

Does anyone have any pics of Beatles or Bardot on the ice trying to stop the hunt?

Here in Cah lee fuh nee ah the "stars" come out for the Surfrider Foundation to do the beach clean-ups. While they just have to drive up the street or walk out their back door to participate.

Then you have the others who build and adopt...Ah, I'll give them some credit...Not a huge fan of the camera crews, press releases and one hour TV specials, tho. That's a little more self-serving than I can stomach.

A few bucks and a PSA should just about cover it.

------------

Everyone (except Jessica Simpson- she wants chicken free tuna) wants dolphin free tuna, free range animals and man-made leather.

We can't have everything.
-------------

As brutal as seal culling is, we always side with the animals-and rightly so.
Check out the lists of animals that are disappearing from the planet.

Why?

Because we are not responsible for caring for them in the first place.

We do not take into consideration that there are times that hunts and culling
are ways to promote that species longevity.

Illnesses, overpopulatiion and construction are to blame for a lot of the disappearing creatures- so are haphazard hunting practices.

Things could be worse.

What happens to the seals if we do not put limits on hunts?

-----------

The last thing we don't take into consideration is the people who actually do the hunting. I really don't see anyone doing it out of sheer meanness. I venture to guess that it's the same reason that drives most of us to earn money.

It's probably not a 'lifestyle' of 'sport'. IT's a way to get a few bucks to feed a family. Because we have more options for employment in the areas we live in, most of us will never have to go club baby mammals to earn a buck.

I dare say most of us would rather work in a nice AC office, Hot coffee in the break room and a nice tofu burger and hummus - delivered to our desk.....

Trudging around in a parka, boots in freezing cold weather, beating the crap outta seals ain't my cup of tea.

What about killing animals for their horns, gall bladders and penises- I've seen the umbrella holders made out of elephant feet and the monkeypaw ashtrays.

Those are the AHs that should be clubbed.


Again, I don't really care for clubbing baby seals. But I do see why there is an industry behind it.

I feel a little better knowing that these hunts are controlled and observed by the gov't.

---------------

One more thing to ponder.

The culling of seals on the ecosystem.
Seals eat fish, A lot of seals eat a lot of fish. Less fish = less seals.

Two or more species gone.

Think global, act loco!

[Puckstop31]

I don't belive hunting any living thing should be sporty or fun,

That's like saying '' You obviously have never been dog hunting''

No it's not... Hunting dogs would be FAR less challenging. A Turkey hunt is truely a challenge. I have probably been out 12-13 times in my life and have had 4 successes.

Your comparison does not work here...


Turkeys & Dogs can both feel pain in the same way, there should be no difference.

I know that. But when a turkey hunt is successful, I promise your the turkey feels no pain. Why? Because you have to call them in very close and at that very short range it is a instant kill.

If pain of the animal is your problem, turkey hunting should not be a problem for you.



I'm only up for hunting if you need to use the animals for food, I mean the HOLE animal .. don't just chop off it's head, skin the fur and leave the rest of the carcass. Sometimes in casses animals do over populate but that's nature and I would rather leave it be but of course that's not going to happen with humans around.

I never have and never will keep a animal I kill to turn into a trophey. I only hunt what I intend to eat or donate.

And you know what? I bet I love and respect nature more than most. Why? I am very responsible about my hunting, report morons who are not and I understand the gift that nature is. I am more at home in the woods that I ever will be in the concrete jungle.

[Puckstop31]

Anyway....who are we to play God ???? To say who or what dies, or who and what lives ???
Wom

God has given us dominion over His animal creation. I know this is going to piss most of you off, but it is what it is. That does not mean we should just blindly take advantage of it. It is a gift that should be responsibly managed and used.

[Puckstop31]

I don't think I have ever seen a homeless person hunt. Is that a big problem in the city, seeing homeless people with rifles shooting stray dogs, cats, rats, birds for food? They are usually in the city panhandling or going to a food bank. I grew up in the country and I have never met anyone who had to hunt for food. They wanted to but didn't need to meat to live. Plant a veggie garden, can some veggies for God's sake.
These seal hunters don't give a damn how those seals die. They are beating them to death while these animals are screaming and crying in pain. They don't care if that baby dies the first blow or the 5 or 10th. They are there for the money. It doesn't matter how the seal dies, just that they make their quoto. There are plenty of other ways to make a living them beating a baby to death. And if they are too stupid to figure that out do us a favor and don't have kids.
I have no respect for hunters or murderes as I call them. Nor would I help one who is starving or bleeding to death. I have no problem walking away from a dying hunter. Do I put an animals life in front of a person? Yes I would. If there was a rapist or drug dealer, child molester in a burning building and a pet hamster and I only had time to get one out, hey I'm picking the hamster. That sweet innocent creature never harmed anyone, the person did. A worthless, evil, mean person's life is not worth anything.
Does the mother dog or mommy cat love her babies any less, often they love their babies more then humans. They don't stab, burn, murder, abuse, abandon, molest their kids. We as humans do hundreds of times a day.
Oh and ants and fleas are insects not animals. They don't have the same nerve receptors so I have no problem sleeping if I step on an ant. Dead ant, dead ant, dead ant, deat ant dead ant.....lalalalalla

I love it... I love the statement "ants and fleas are insects, not animals". Where in your brain does THAT justification come up? To make you feel better I suppose?

What if the choice was between a Human child and that hamster?

Seek help m'am. I'd hate for you to end up in jail if you really did make a choice like that someday.

[sparks19]

Who said anything about insects? Sorry but, I didn't see anyone post that they killed bugs on their free time but they abhor any other kind of killing. There's a big difference between accidentally and unknowingly stepping on an ant and taking a rifle and blowing the head off of a turkey. Something to do with intention maybe?

And anyway, aren't you the one who thinks we all have choices, and that if people are poor, it is their own fault? If everyone has such a choice, then there they shouldn't have to ever choose to take such an awful job- if they do, it's their fault, right? Because people who work for their money deserve their money more...we don't want poor people stealing from us decent hard working people.

I agree that cows and other animals raised for slaugther lead worse lives than those in the wild- but I also don't agree with hunting. But, I also don't eat meat of any kind. Since you find slaughterhouse practices so horrible, do you likewise abstain from non "free range" meat?


In fact I DO think everyone has a choice.... and I will never condemn anyone for working for a living when so many would just say forget it and go onto welfare for the rest of their lives when there IS a job available.... These people are working for a living and they are being thrown to the lions saying they deserve to get stuck out in the ice and die because they do their JOB. My job is not my life ... I do it to make a living. And these people DO deserve their money because they are working for it. So I'm not sure what your point is there. This just shows that no one TRULY has to be on welfare.... they just might have to do a job they don't particularly like... but around here the terrible jobs are working at McDonalds.... shows what a spoiled society we live in. I applaude these families for doing what they can and not just giving up and going on welfare.

Nope, I eat meat that I get from the grocery store..... I am just pointing out what others who protest "store bought meat" say. Many that I know say free range meat is better because they are treated better throughout their life time and when they are taken to slaughter..... I just buy whatever meat is available. I personally don't sit there and think about the lifestyle my steak lead.... I just eat it.

As for the bugs..... read back through the posts.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

I don't think I have ever seen a homeless person hunt.

I don't think you are allowed to hunt them....

[sparks19]

I don't think you are allowed to hunt them....

Hunt what? Homeless people? lol you are funny :D

and just for the record..... I also don't eat Venison.... therefore I don't hunt. But I know many people that do eat venison and many people that hunt. I might try wild Turkey..... but I'm wierd about meat ... hard to explain lol but I leave half of it behind.... any piece that isn't JUST meat (like if it has fat or gristle in it) does not get eaten by me. I'm afraid to try new kinds of meat lol

[DrKym]

I don't think you are allowed to hunt them....

I think it falls under Tourist season................. :D

[Pembroke_Corgi]

In fact I DO think everyone has a choice.... and I will never condemn anyone for working for a living when so many would just say forget it and go onto welfare for the rest of their lives when there IS a job available.... These people are working for a living and they are being thrown to the lions saying they deserve to get stuck out in the ice and die because they do their JOB. My job is not my life ... I do it to make a living. And these people DO deserve their money because they are working for it. So I'm not sure what your point is there. This just shows that no one TRULY has to be on welfare.... they just might have to do a job they don't particularly like... but around here the terrible jobs are working at McDonalds.... shows what a spoiled society we live in. I applaude these families for doing what they can and not just giving up and going on welfare.


You're right. People who take the undesirable jobs in society are actually unsung hereos... Where would we be without all the people who take jobs the rest of us don't want? Thank god that people like drug dealers and prostitutes don't think, "My life would be so much better if I just quit my job and lived off the state." :rolleyes:

You must live in a really sheltered part of the country if you honestly believe that the worst job you could take to survive is working at McDonald's.

[sparks19]

You're right. People who take the undesirable jobs in society are actually unsung hereos... Where would we be without all the people who take jobs the rest of us don't want? Thank god that people like drug dealers and prostitutes don't think, "My life would be so much better if I just quit my job and lived off the state." :rolleyes:

You must live in a really sheltered part of the country if you honestly believe that the worst job you could take to survive is working at McDonald's.


LOL No need to be snarky lol.

My point is that most of the people that end up on welfare do so because they don't WANT to work the "demeaning" jobs like Mcdonalds or work in fields picking strawberries. There are plenty of jobs for those who are willing to work them..... it's just that too many people seem to think those jobs are "beneath" them. Those prostitutes and drug dealers COULD work at McDonalds... they just choose not to because they make a killing selling themselves. Or Walmart. I don't believe that McDonalds is a bad place to take a job..... my uncle worked for McDonalds for over 30 years.... climbed the corporate ladder and got paid a darn pretty penny for working there. If I couldn't find a job I would have no problem working at Mcdonalds or Burger King... been there done that and it isn't a terrible job.... you just have to deal with a lot of nasty people but that is true for any customer service job. But in places like Newfoundland they don't have all those McDonalds and stuff on every corner so their livelyhood often rely's on the seal hunt.... and as I said I would do it too if it meant feeding my family.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

LOL No need to be snarky lol.

My point is that most of the people that end up on welfare do so because they don't WANT to work the "demeaning" jobs like Mcdonalds or work in fields picking strawberries. There are plenty of jobs for those who are willing to work them..... it's just that too many people seem to think those jobs are "beneath" them. Those prostitutes and drug dealers COULD work at McDonalds... they just choose not to because they make a killing selling themselves. Or Walmart. I don't believe that McDonalds is a bad place to take a job..... my uncle worked for McDonalds for over 30 years.... climbed the corporate ladder and got paid a darn pretty penny for working there. If I couldn't find a job I would have no problem working at Mcdonalds or Burger King... been there done that and it isn't a terrible job.... you just have to deal with a lot of nasty people but that is true for any customer service job. But in places like Newfoundland they don't have all those McDonalds and stuff on every corner so their livelyhood often rely's on the seal hunt.... and as I said I would do it too if it meant feeding my family.
I understand where you are coming from- but I disagree that people on welfare are just using the system. No doubt there are a few that would rather receive free pennies from the government over work....but I think the vast majority of the people on welfare are legitimately destitute, and they need help so they can feed their children. I believe you have to have children to get the assistance.

Now, the part that we disagree on is that you think it is more morally reprehensible to receive government aid than to kill animals for a living. Perhaps it is just me, but I would go on welfare any day before I would ever choose to make a living killing other living things. But....I doubt the choice would ever be that one-sided. There are other choices people can make.

[Puckstop31]

But....I doubt the choice would ever be that one-sided. There are other choices people can make.

Where you live, sure... Other places in the world, not always. We have our standard of living to allow us to worry about such trite things as this thread discusses.

Just pray that our way of life as we know it never changes. A Human is never more than 9 or so meals away from committing acts of barbarism.

[lizbud]

The seal "hunt" is an off season activity & is not the sole source of
income for these people. It is not a make or break situation for them.
It's extra money for them, but it's a matter of life or death for the animals.

A little info on the overall problems in the fishing industry & enviromental
concerns.


http://www.fisherycrisis.com/seals/greysealhunt.htm

[king2005]

I don't think I have ever seen a homeless person hunt.

Saw it all the time back in Ottawa. College students will toss quarters onto the main roads (4-6 lanes) during rush hour & watch the homless people run into traffic, hoping to get one pegged off by a car...

There are so many homless people killed every year for sport.

Its nothing new.. happens all the time... not saying its right, just saying it happens.

[angelbow20]

I dont know if this has anything to do with seal hunting, but about a week ago on tv I was watching something on seals and one reason people hunt them is the same reason they are aloud to hunt deer and wild turkey, Over population... Do I like to see any animal die? No of course not but if certain animals werent hunted they would end up dying on their own by starving and same goes for the other animals who live on the same food and certain fish they eat could become endangered or even gone forever. I dont know about you but I know I wouldnt want to starve to death I think that would be very painful. I dont think its fair for any animal to die but I dont hate the people who do it, I feel in a way they are helping them even though that sounds crazy.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

Saw it all the time back in Ottawa. College students will toss quarters onto the main roads (4-6 lanes) during rush hour & watch the homless people run into traffic, hoping to get one pegged off by a car...

There are so many homless people killed every year for sport.

Its nothing new.. happens all the time... not saying its right, just saying it happens.

OMG! I am so sorry for my flippant remark. I did not realise that such atrocities existed. Abject apologies to anyone I may have offended. My msn name is "put brain in gear before opening mouth......."

[Sophist]

Wow this thread has become a big argument. Yes I said SEALS only but what about the deer? What about the bunnies? What about all the other animals who stay together family like. Yes some animals abandon their babies but duh so do people. You are crazy lady...

We were discussing this situation.

Even in the Dog House, I don't think there is room for name-calling.

[Sophist]

Your last post is much to long to quote entirely, but would like to
respond to this paragraph,

"Although if you'd really like to continue here, I would be more than happy to do so. When I am sincerely interested in an issue, I never tire of it. I would love any facts, figures, or expert opinions you can provide me that refute my arguments. Any new or convincing argument that I have to work into my view will only make my next letter to Canada, my local newspaper or underground 'zine that much more thought out and complete, so please share anything you have. "

I really would like to see & read any links or references you have used to
base your opinions on, so please enlighten me.Post any links to info you
have. Thanks.


My opinions have been formed over numerous years. If you'd like to pick anything you actually question or would like to know more about, I would be glad to foffer some more support for it. However, I would also encourage you to look at the numerous links I have already shared.

[Sophist]

Wow, glad to see a few more people who are willing to look at the other side showed up while I was away. :p I was starting to get lonely ;) .


And ladies (it's mostly ladies, anyway) I feel we've actually done a fairly good job at keeping this mostly civil over the course of things. Let's all try hard not to trip at the finish line.


Also, a big thanks to the poster who posted some of the government contact info on the link... one of the things I cam back here to do. When I have a bit, I'll have to check out the link and see if there are any addresses I know to ad or anything.


And, lastly, I am still very interested in hearing what any of the folks vehemently opposed to the hunt have done to express their views to those actually involved in it. Not just calling you out (well, maybe a little, but not JUST that ;) ), I am actually interested in knowing the ways you have all come up to counter-act this.

[wombat2u2004]

The seal "hunt" is an off season activity & is not the sole source of
income for these people. It is not a make or break situation for them.
It's extra money for them, but it's a matter of life or death for the animals.

A little info on the overall problems in the fishing industry & enviromental
concerns.


http://www.fisherycrisis.com/seals/greysealhunt.htm

Yahhhhh.....I had a laugh at all the excuses we got from the crocodile hunters here a few years ago in Oz....how they NEEDED the cull to actually have food on their table, to go on their yearly holiday to ski in Austria, to keep there speedboat properly fueled so that they could enjoy a ride around the bay after their barbeque with drinkies during the summer.
Poor little hunters.....I really felt sorry for them when they stopped most of the cull. I mean.....just WHAT is the world coming to ???? No crocodile skin handbags and shoes and stuff ???? Women will never be the same now !!!!
Imagine....NO crocodile skin accessories.
What actually WAS refreshing tho....was the knowledge that every now and again....a croc got smarter....and got one of them. Yep....you want the big bucks....you take the risks. Trouble is tho.....it is the big bucks that rule....so who really gives a heck if the crocs go extinct.
I wonder where those hunters are now ???? Hmmm...dunno....probably all starved to death....probably.
Wom

[lizbud]

My opinions have been formed over numerous years. If you'd like to pick anything you actually question or would like to know more about, I would be glad to foffer some more support for it. However, I would also encourage you to look at the numerous links I have already shared.


I'm sorry you couldn't be more helpful now, but I will search back through
all the posts & try to get an idea of what facts interested you.

I'll get back to you next week sometime, after i've found the links.

[Blue_Frog]

Sorry no time for a more cohesive post -- heres links pro, con and neutral to make up your own minds -- have to head home

against the seal hunt
http://www.harpseals.org/hunters/index.html
http://www.environmentvoters.org/sealhunt_strategy_framework.html
http://www.canadiansealhunt.com/
seal hunt petition -- http://www.stopthesealhunt.ca/site/c.jhKSIZPzEmE/b.2607991/k.B25F/Stop_the_Seal_Hunt__300000_Actions_for_300000_Seal s.htm
http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/protect_seals/give_seals_a_chance.html
http://www.antisealingcoalition.ca/blog/sealhunt2007.php
http://www.nativejournal.ca/pages/*2007.04.pages/2007.04.Ec.Dev.html#anchor4

pro seal hunt
Seal Management -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/report-rapport_e.htm
Includes an entire breakdown of the Industry from a government perspective -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/reports-rapports/facts-faits/facts-faits2007_e.htm
Myths about the Seal Hunt -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/seal_phoque_en.pdf
Collapse of the Cod Fisery and Seal Management -- http://egj.lib.uidaho.edu/egj17/mason1.html
Standing Commitee on Fisheries and Oceans -- http://cmte.parl.gc.ca/Content/HOC/Committee/391/FOPO/Evidence/EV2535788/FOPOEV29-E.PDF
http://freenewfoundlandlabrador.blogspot.com/2005/09/what-motivates-seal-hunt-protest.html
http://www.sealharvest.ca/html/press_releases.html

neutral seal hunt links
phone survey by the gobbment, with the results -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/reports-rapports/study-etude/Questionnaire_e.htm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/sealhunt/
A discussion forum with additional points of view -- http://boards.self.com/thread.jspa;jsessionid=h_2OfZaamI4eqLMj?messageID= 258793&
Another discussion forum with additional points of view -- http://www.leasticoulddo.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t16572.html
http://www.imma.org/fishcomm/
http://futuresheet.com/2007/04/04/warming-thins-herd-for-canadas-seal-hunt/

other 'culls' that occurr...
Alligators -- http://myfwc.com/gators/
Deer -- http://www.greatlakesdirectory.org/wi/0426deer.htm
Bear -- http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article316085.ece
*note: the bear hunt was cancelled due to public pressure. See here for nusiance bear issues -- http://www.ofah.org/Bear/News.cfm?P=1 and http://www.northshorebears.com/downloads/NS_Bear_Hazard_Assessment.pdf *

[Sophist]

I'm sorry you couldn't be more helpful now, but I will search back through
all the posts & try to get an idea of what facts interested you.

I'll get back to you next week sometime, after i've found the links.


Yeah, waiting until the end of the debate when I've been one of the very few providing outside sources and then just sying "PROVE ALL OF IT!" is a little tricky, at best.

Sorry you find me unhelpful, but I don't keep a current list of citations on my entire inventory of thought processes... I tried, but the backpack got too heavy :p ;) .

And please, don't worry about the facts that interest me, let me know what you are interested in knowing more about.

If there are any specific issues you'd like me to try to clarify or offer you some sources that support my view, though, please do let me know and I would be happy to comply as time allows.

[Sophist]

Blue Frog... I tried posting some different pro and con cites a ways back, hopefully yours are more-clicked upon than mine.


I look forward to reading through what you've gathered, though. Thanks for your efforts to provide us a variety of views to sort through.

[wombat2u2004]

Saw it all the time back in Ottawa. College students will toss quarters onto the main roads (4-6 lanes) during rush hour & watch the homless people run into traffic, hoping to get one pegged off by a car...

There are so many homless people killed every year for sport.

Its nothing new.. happens all the time... not saying its right, just saying it happens.

College students huh ???
Well, from my time on this planet, it's always been college students who think they have all the answers...you know....the mass demo's about wars, the environment, stuff like that. It must be their learned opinion that we don't need homeless hanging about the streets......oh well....guess they'll be longer here than I will be......or.......will they ??? :eek: :eek:
Wom

[wombat2u2004]

[QUOTE=Puckstop31]God has given us dominion over His animal creation.

Who wrote that one ??? Some hungry 11th century monk ????
Wom

[lizbud]

Sorry no time for a more cohesive post -- heres links pro, con and neutral to make up your own minds -- have to head home

against the seal hunt
http://www.harpseals.org/hunters/index.html
http://www.environmentvoters.org/sealhunt_strategy_framework.html
http://www.canadiansealhunt.com/
seal hunt petition -- http://www.stopthesealhunt.ca/site/c.jhKSIZPzEmE/b.2607991/k.B25F/Stop_the_Seal_Hunt__300000_Actions_for_300000_Seal s.htm
http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/protect_seals/give_seals_a_chance.html
http://www.antisealingcoalition.ca/blog/sealhunt2007.php
http://www.nativejournal.ca/pages/*2007.04.pages/2007.04.Ec.Dev.html#anchor4

pro seal hunt
Seal Management -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/report-rapport_e.htm
Includes an entire breakdown of the Industry from a government perspective -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/reports-rapports/facts-faits/facts-faits2007_e.htm
Myths about the Seal Hunt -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/seal_phoque_en.pdf
Collapse of the Cod Fisery and Seal Management -- http://egj.lib.uidaho.edu/egj17/mason1.html
Standing Commitee on Fisheries and Oceans -- http://cmte.parl.gc.ca/Content/HOC/Committee/391/FOPO/Evidence/EV2535788/FOPOEV29-E.PDF
http://freenewfoundlandlabrador.blogspot.com/2005/09/what-motivates-seal-hunt-protest.html
http://www.sealharvest.ca/html/press_releases.html

neutral seal hunt links
phone survey by the gobbment, with the results -- http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/reports-rapports/study-etude/Questionnaire_e.htm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/sealhunt/
A discussion forum with additional points of view -- http://boards.self.com/thread.jspa;jsessionid=h_2OfZaamI4eqLMj?messageID= 258793&
Another discussion forum with additional points of view -- http://www.leasticoulddo.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t16572.html
http://www.imma.org/fishcomm/
http://futuresheet.com/2007/04/04/warming-thins-herd-for-canadas-seal-hunt/

other 'culls' that occurr...
Alligators -- http://myfwc.com/gators/
Deer -- http://www.greatlakesdirectory.org/wi/0426deer.htm
Bear -- http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article316085.ece
*note: the bear hunt was cancelled due to public pressure. See here for nusiance bear issues -- http://www.ofah.org/Bear/News.cfm?P=1 and http://www.northshorebears.com/downloads/NS_Bear_Hazard_Assessment.pdf *


Thanks Blue Frog.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Wow, glad to see a few more people who are willing to look at the other side showed up while I was away. :p I was starting to get lonely ;) .
Yes, your primary supporter said it was ok because god said so. Sorry, but the bible doesn't count as empirical evidence. :p

I appreciate your attempts to use logic and research to back your claims...even if I find your ultimate conclusion wrong. I too get annoyed with anecdotal evidence and the feeling that, whoever is willing to argue the longest and the loudest will "win" the debate.

I will admit I'm no expert on seals, or marine life in general. I do however feel that a more eco-friendly (and seal friendly) solution is surely out there for dealing with this "overpopulation." I will attempt to do a little research myself and see if I can't find some good data on this, and I'll check out the links you provided.

[wombat2u2004]

I will admit I'm no expert on seals, or marine life in general. I do however feel that a more eco-friendly (and seal friendly) solution is surely out there for dealing with this "overpopulation." I will attempt to do a little research myself and see if I can't find some good data on this, and I'll check out the links you provided.

You don't have to be an expert to see what is happening PC.
Nor do you have to have the imput of so called experts to form an opinion.
Hey....there is right, and there is wrong....your opinion alone is based on what you perceive to be right or wrong.
I for one am not listening to ANY so called experts for or against...I'll no more believe them than what the media hands out to us selectively on a daily basis. Experts persuasion on these matters is also linked to the dollar.
Wom

[Puckstop31]

Who wrote that one ??? Some hungry 11th century monk ????
Wom

No... The Word of God.

Genesis 1:27-28

"27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

[Catty1]

Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

And who is to distinguish between responsible rule and dictatorship? Some humans take this and run the wrong way with it.

To me, this implies stewardship as well.

[sparks19]

And who is to distinguish between responsible rule and dictatorship? Some humans take this and run the wrong way with it.

To me, this implies stewardship as well.


Some humans do everything to the extreme. It can't really be stopped.... there are always going to be people that take a mile when given an inch. but the responsible people shouldn't be condemned for it. Human nature is what it is..... we can't all be trusted to do "the right thing" in every situation.... there are always going to be those that take things to the extreme..... It's just unfortunate that the rest have to be thrown into the group with the whackos.

[wombat2u2004]

No... The Word of God.

Genesis 1:27-28

"27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

Really now ????
Wom

[wombat2u2004]

Some humans do everything to the extreme. It can't really be stopped.... there are always going to be people that take a mile when given an inch. but the responsible people shouldn't be condemned for it. Human nature is what it is..... we can't all be trusted to do "the right thing" in every situation.... there are always going to be those that take things to the extreme..... It's just unfortunate that the rest have to be thrown into the group with the whackos.

So.....the seal hunters ??? Responsible or extreme ????
Wom

[Marigold2]

I love it... I love the statement "ants and fleas are insects, not animals". Where in your brain does THAT justification come up? To make you feel better I suppose?

What if the choice was between a Human child and that hamster?

Seek help m'am. I'd hate for you to end up in jail if you really did make a choice like that someday.
Geez Puck you are so kind. I love how you quote the bible in one post while still managing to insult me in another while you hold a gun in one hand look an innocent creature in the eye and blow it's brains out. Read what I wrote again Puck I didn't say anything about innocent babies I spoke about child molesters, murderes and rapists. Just so we are clear, if it was between say you and the hamster, getting a little hot there Puck?

[Puckstop31]

And who is to distinguish between responsible rule and dictatorship? Some humans take this and run the wrong way with it.

To me, this implies stewardship as well.

Indeed. I agree with you 100%.

[Puckstop31]

Geez Puck you are so kind. I love how you quote the bible in one post while still managing to insult me in another while you hold a gun in one hand look an innocent creature in the eye and blow it's brains out. Read what I wrote again Puck I didn't say anything about innocent babies I spoke about child molesters, murderes and rapists. Just so we are clear, if it was between say you and the hamster, getting a little hot there Puck?

I was not trying to insult you, I am worried about you, really. The idea that any animal life holds sway over any human life is scary.

As for the Bible and "gun" comment... God has given us responsibility to manage His gift. I doubt there is anything else I can say that would make you understand how I feel. Perhaps look at it this way? Humans are animals, right? We are also at the top of the food chain. So look at it as if we are the top predator. Do you hold the same disdain for say, Eagles? They kill "innocent" prey all the time.


Just so we are clear, if it was between say you and the hamster, getting a little hot there Puck?

So, just so I am clear... If I was unconscious in a burning building, next to a hamster in its cage and you could only save one of us, you would save the hamster?

Finally... M'am, there is nothing you could say or do that would get me "hot", in any way. I feel sorry for you, not angry at you.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

No... The Word of God.

Genesis 1:27-28

"27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

I'm sorry but I can't be doing with this. While I respect that everyone has a right to choose what they believe (I am still undecided) I really don't think it can be used as ammunition in a "debate"

[sparks19]

I was not trying to insult you, I am worried about you, really. The idea that any animal life holds sway over any human life is scary.

As for the Bible and "gun" comment... God has given us responsibility to manage His gift. I doubt there is anything else I can say that would make you understand how I feel. Perhaps look at it this way? Humans are animals, right? We are also at the top of the food chain. So look at it as if we are the top predator. Do you hold the same disdain for say, Eagles? They kill "innocent" prey all the time.



So, just so I am clear... If I was unconscious in a burning building, next to a hamster in its cage and you could only save one of us, you would save the hamster?

Finally... M'am, there is nothing you could say or do that would get me "hot", in any way. I feel sorry for you, not angry at you.

Get you hot :eek: that is my job :D

Wombat..... I am sure there are many of the extremes in the seal hunt....but I'm also sure that for the most part it is JUST A JOB. they are hired and paid to provide a service.... they are doing so. It may not be the best job out there and you may not like it but it sure puts food on the table.

Newfoundland is like a culture of it's own. They are unlike any group of people I have ever met..... for the most part they would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it. They live a simple life in a simple province.... some of the friendliest (albeit I could be wrong since I can't ever understand a word Charlie says but it sounds nice lol) most helpful people I have known have been from newfoundland. The Seal hunt is like part of their culture. So to them this is just a way of life and a way to put food on the table.... not some joy ride to just go out and club things and then have a big celebration in honor of their deaths.

[Puckstop31]

I'm sorry but I can't be doing with this. While I respect that everyone has a right to choose what they believe (I am still undecided) I really don't think it can be used as ammunition in a "debate"


Why?

[Marigold2]

Puck,

Again if it was a decision between someone evil such as Hitler and your dog I think most people would save their pet before they save a Hilter, or a Jack the Ripper. A great deal of people would save their pet before they would go back in to save a child molester. I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking that way. And no I don't think that EVERY human life is more important then an animal. Some people don't deserve help. Just because my compassion is different then yours does not make me ill. It's a free country and I can help whomever I so choose, give money or time to whatever charity I want.
Staring an animal in the eyes and blowing it's brains out makes me wonder about your mental health, kindness and goodness of heart. What about your dog will you shot him as well if you are bored and need to unwind?

Animals don't hunt for fun or to hang a trophy. They hunt for survival. Nor do they molest their young. Their hearts in many ways are kinder and more loving then humans. As for being on top of the food chain, I don't know about you but my level of compassion is not decided by someones IQ.
Just because a dog, hamster or rabbit is less intelligent then a human does not make their life worth less. I am sure if we could speak to them they would tell you how much they love their lives and don't want to suffer or die. Just as it doesn't make a difference if a person with Altzheimers or mental retardation needs help. Their IQ might be less then a dogs but my compassion again isn't doled out that way. I just don't care about the evil people.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

Why?

Mainly because what is one man's guide is another's whatever the opposite is. Its hard to explain but I guess what I'm saying is that as there is no real proof behind any religion no matter how strongly you believe,quoting from the Bible is on par with quoting from Winnie the Pooh.

I don't mean that to be disrespectful to anyone's religion but as I said, its really hard to contextualise what I'm trying to say

[Puckstop31]

Puck,

Again if it was a decision between someone evil such as Hitler and your dog I think most people would save their pet before they save a Hilter, or a Jack the Ripper. A great deal of people would save their pet before they would go back in to save a child molester. I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking that way.

But that is not what you said. You said "YOU" as in the tense of talking about ME. In your mind are Adolf Hitler and myself parallel people?

Also, would you leave me to die over a hamster? You never answered that for me. It is kind of important here.


And no I don't think that EVERY human life is more important then an animal. Some people don't deserve help.

In your mind. To me, there is ALWAYS hope for every human soul.


Staring an animal in the eyes and blowing it's brains out makes me wonder about your mental health, kindness and goodness of heart. What about your dog will you shot him as well if you are bored and need to unwind?

First, I don't "blow their brains out". Nice work overly dramatizing though. I do not hunt because I have some urge to kill. You just totally do not understand who I am. You have a sterotype of what a hunter is in your brain and I know nothing will ever change your mind, at least on a internet forum.

See, you suggesting that I would shoot my pets if I was "bored" just shows more and more how irrational and totally EMOTIONAL your ideas about hunting are.


Nor do they molest their young. Their hearts in many ways are kinder and more loving then humans.

Except for male polar bears who eat young polar bears. Or... And....


Now..


As for being on top of the food chain, I don't know about you but my level of compassion is not decided by someones IQ.

Then you say...


Just because a dog, hamster or rabbit is less intelligent then a human does not make their life worth less. I am sure if we could speak to them they would tell you how much they love their lives and don't want to suffer or die. Just as it doesn't make a difference if a person with Altzheimers or mental retardation needs help. Their IQ might be less then a dogs but my compassion again isn't doled out that way. I just don't care about the evil people.

Apparently IQ does have something to do with it. Tell me, what does evil mean to you? What makes a person evil to you?

[Puckstop31]

Mainly because what is one man's guide is another's whatever the opposite is. Its hard to explain but I guess what I'm saying is that as there is no real proof behind any religion no matter how strongly you believe,quoting from the Bible is on par with quoting from Winnie the Pooh.

I don't mean that to be disrespectful to anyone's religion but as I said, its really hard to contextualise what I'm trying to say

So what you are saying is that a person cannot use their personal belief system in debate if that system is driven by faith?

My entire point in this debate, that humans have been given all of creation as a gift and that such a gift is ours to use, RESPONSIBLY; is driven entirely by my faith.

Thus, by the logic you use here I could not even participate in this "debate". Is this what you are saying? I am not trying to be aggressive here, I just want to know if that is what you mean.

Thank you.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

So what you are saying is that a person cannot use their personal belief system in debate if that system is driven by faith?

My entire point in this debate, that humans have been given all of creation as a gift and that such a gift is ours to use, RESPONSIBLY; is driven entirely by my faith.

Thus, by the logic you use here I could not even participate in this "debate". Is this what you are saying? I am not trying to be aggressive here, I just want to know if that is what you mean.

Thank you.

I understand what you are saying. You obviously have a strong faith which works for you and is great and I think that all views should be expressed in a debate. I just find it hard to accept quotes from a "book" as the basis of an argument. You see, I am not sure if I have a faith or belief and cannot get my head round being given the gift of creation. Who gave it to us? Your faith means you are convinced it was God but me.............I'm just baffled. Just because its written down and millions of people believe it to be true doesn't mean that it is - but people also believed that the world was flat until it was proved otherwise.

However, if I disappear from the face of the earth tonight I will be convinced by your point of view :D

[lizbud]

Puck,

Again if it was a decision between someone evil such as Hitler and your dog I think most people would save their pet before they save a Hilter, or a Jack the Ripper. A great deal of people would save their pet before they would go back in to save a child molester. I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking that way. And no I don't think that EVERY human life is more important then an animal. Some people don't deserve help. Just because my compassion is different then yours does not make me ill. It's a free country and I can help whomever I so choose, give money or time to whatever charity I want.
Staring an animal in the eyes and blowing it's brains out makes me wonder about your mental health, kindness and goodness of heart. What about your dog will you shot him as well if you are bored and need to unwind?

Animals don't hunt for fun or to hang a trophy. They hunt for survival. Nor do they molest their young. Their hearts in many ways are kinder and more loving then humans. As for being on top of the food chain, I don't know about you but my level of compassion is not decided by someones IQ.
Just because a dog, hamster or rabbit is less intelligent then a human does not make their life worth less. I am sure if we could speak to them they would tell you how much they love their lives and don't want to suffer or die. Just as it doesn't make a difference if a person with Altzheimers or mental retardation needs help. Their IQ might be less then a dogs but my compassion again isn't doled out that way. I just don't care about the evil people.


I understand what you are saying & I agree 100%. :) Don't let anyone
here manipulate this conversation into a personal one. Some folks are only
content when they are talking about themselves & every discussion turns
into a personal battle.

[Puckstop31]

I understand what you are saying & I agree 100%. :) Don't let anyone
here manipulate this conversation into a personal one. Some folks are only
content when they are talking about themselves & every discussion turns
into a personal battle.

How typically sophomoric of you Lizbud. Dodge the issue and attack what you think is my "style" of speaking.

[RICHARD]

http://www.easterseals.com/site/PageServer
No one has mentioned the Easter Seals.


http://199.208.208.41/

Not all SEALS are helpless.

---------------

Hmmm,

Let's try this one on for size..

Burning building.

You race in and have to save a hunter or someone who abuses little animals.

The stock answer probably will be, "I let them both die!"

Hmmm, makes me wonder...... :confused:

[sparks19]

I understand what you are saying. You obviously have a strong faith which works for you and is great and I think that all views should be expressed in a debate. I just find it hard to accept quotes from a "book" as the basis of an argument. You see, I am not sure if I have a faith or belief and cannot get my head round being given the gift of creation. Who gave it to us? Your faith means you are convinced it was God but me.............I'm just baffled. Just because its written down and millions of people believe it to be true doesn't mean that it is - but people also believed that the world was flat until it was proved otherwise.

However, if I disappear from the face of the earth tonight I will be convinced by your point of view :D


FWIW, my faith is not driven by a book. I did not sit down... read the bible and think "hey this sounds good to me I'll just go with it" :p My faith is driven by what I have felt and experienced.... it is very hard to explain but my faith is based on my encounters with God. It sounds strange to someone who hasn't experienced it or doesn't know they have experienced it.... but to me it is more real than the nose on my face. Not because some book tells me so... but because of my experiences with God. Again.... sounds strange but to me it is real.

BTW, winnie the pooh is real :D although I suppose the original Pooh is sadly no longer around... but he was a real bear :D lol and Christopher Robin a real boy. OK.... I know entirely too much useless winnie the pooh info. ha

[Blue_Frog]

I'm not expecting to change any minds here, but would like to voice my opinion.

I can't speak for Puck or anyone else on here, but I can speak for my moms boyfriend, who is also a hunter. He is one of the most caring men that I have met, and was devistated when his dog finally succumbed to terminal cancer.

He participates in the legal hunting of the White Tailed deer up here in Ontario as part of a population control method to prevent the winter starvation of many of the deer population. He will -not- shoot at a deer until he is guaranteed 100% to kill the animal with the first shot, and has come home from many hunts over many years without a kill. With the exception of my sister, no one in my family or their sig-others are a vegetarian, and I have a lot of respect for my moms boyfriend - he has made the decision to be a part of the food chain, and is seeing what he is eating. How many other 'meat eaters' out there can say the same? How many people get their meat neatly wrapped up in plastic without having any ties to the animal that it came from?

Not all hunters are gun toting yokels, out to shoot everything that moves. Many are caring, and many are environmentalists and care deeply about the world around them.


Staring an animal in the eyes and blowing it's brains out makes me wonder about your mental health, kindness and goodness of heart.
...
Animals don't hunt for fun or to hang a trophy. They hunt for survival. Nor do they molest their young. Their hearts in many ways are kinder and more loving then humans.

So, staring at an animal that has had its guts pulled out by coyotes and humanely ending its life with a bullet makes for less 'mental health'? Yes, this is a situation that my moms bf ran across while out in the woods at the farm, and he did what he had to. I'll let him know that hes unkind and uncaring and has a lack of goodness of heart. Because all hunters are uncaring murderers.

Animals are not always nice or caring to each other. Animals are canabilistic, animals will kill their own young, and predators will toy with a kill and occasionally eat animals while they are still alive (ever see an outdoor kitty playing with a fieldmouse?). I'm sorry if this is graphic, but it is true.

Canabilism?
http://www.tigerhomes.org/animal/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=24218&sid=1eece52491637788588dfe1aa5c956d8
http://ladywildlife.com/animal/cannibalisminanimals.html


EDIT: quote removed as being inadvertantly offensive, as not indended that way.

[sparks19]

Thank you Blue Frog.... that was very well put. I guess it is just hard for those on the outside looking in to see beyond their view point. I'm sure not many have spent time with or talking to a true hunter about what they do. They have their opinion and that is fine..... but IMO it is nothing but stereotypical dribble about what they THINK really happens and how they think those hunters are in life and how things work in their mind.

Like your step father ... my husband is one of the most respectful, caring, kind and helpful men I know.

[Miss Z]

Just on the religion front:

I always am a little vexed when religious quotes are brought into an arguement too. I agree with Denise for the most part. What always springs to mind that whilst people's opinions may be based on faith, that faith is by no means the same for all involved. What about someone who is Muslim, or Jewish? Bible quotes mean nothing to them. That's why I always believe faith and debate should keep apart. But then, that's just my view. I'm sure plenty disagree.

I've also been a little surprised as to some attitudes here. I've raised an eyebrow a couple of times on these last few pages, it seems some people may be getting a little big for their boots. Can we not just let this be by now? Sure, not all people here are fact storage facilities, nor are we emotionless robots who fire information at each other constantly until the other runs out of ammo. Some of us get our ideas and opinions from a little thing called gut feeling. Maybe even conscience or morals. Of course this is nothing unless backed up by at least a few facts, but nonetheless it is a strong arguement in any case. If you saw bullies beating a kid in the street, would you not act upon morals instead of weighing up pros and cons of all possible outcomes? I sincerely hope that would be so.

My opinions will not change by any facts. I live by my morals. For anyone else, well whatever floats your boat is fine by me.

Thanks. I'll get off my soapbox now.

[wombat2u2004]

Thank you Blue Frog.... that was very well put. I guess it is just hard for those on the outside looking in to see beyond their view point. I'm sure not many have spent time with or talking to a true hunter about what they do. They have their opinion and that is fine..... but IMO it is nothing but stereotypical dribble about what they THINK really happens and how they think those hunters are in life and how things work in their mind.

Like your step father ... my husband is one of the most respectful, caring, kind and helpful men I know.

A true hunter huh ???? I'm not dribbling here when I tell you that I USED to be one of those. Tonite when I come home from work....I will post exactly some stories about what I once was....and dispel some of these furfies about true hunters.
Wom

[lizbud]

Just on the religion front:

I always am a little vexed when religious quotes are brought into an arguement too. I agree with Denise for the most part. What always springs to mind that whilst people's opinions may be based on faith, that faith is by no means the same for all involved. What about someone who is Muslim, or Jewish? Bible quotes mean nothing to them. That's why I always believe faith and debate should keep apart. But then, that's just my view. I'm sure plenty disagree.

I've also been a little surprised as to some attitudes here. I've raised an eyebrow a couple of times on these last few pages, it seems some people may be getting a little big for their boots. Can we not just let this be by now? Sure, not all people here are fact storage facilities, nor are we emotionless robots who fire information at each other constantly until the other runs out of ammo. Some of us get our ideas and opinions from a little
thing called gut feeling. Maybe even conscience or morals. Of course this is nothing unless backed up by at least a few facts, but nonetheless it is a strong arguement in any case. If you saw bullies beating a kid in the street, would you not act upon morals instead of weighing up pros and cons of all possible outcomes? I sincerely hope that would be so.

My opinions will not change by any facts. I live by my morals. For anyone else, well whatever floats your boat is fine by me.

Thanks. I'll get off my soapbox now.




Thank you very much for your imput. You make great points. I almost
asked Karen to lock this thread because some people don't seem to be
able to accept anothers opinions for what they are. Their opinions, no more
no less.People should be able to express a thought without be attacked and
insulted because of it. Geeze, it just a discussion, everyone's thoughts are
worth hearing even if you don't agree with them.Chill already. :)

[Blue_Frog]

I'm one of the guilty parties for dragging this topic, well... off topic. Sorry bout that.

So, back on track ...

---

After doing some more research, this has me rather concerned about that area in general, for the seals and other creatures living there (outside of the hunting aspect) -- the link below has graphs and stuff in it for anyone interested.

http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/dimages/custom/2_Publications/Seals/Global_Warming_seals.pdf


If warm years with reduced ice coverage become the norm
– as appears to be the case – there will likely be additional effects
on ice-breeding seals, including both harp and hooded seals
(Johnston et al. 2005, Lavigne 2006). These include possible
effects on timing of reproduction (Lavigne and Kovacs 1988)
and the loss of critical breeding habitat. They also include
potential effects on fish and invertebrates, leading to changes in
availability of prey for seals, potential effects on seal predators,
e.g. killer whales, Orcinus orca, and concomitant effects on seal
condition, growth, reproductive success, and survival. A recent
examination of the potential effects of global warming on
marine mammals included harp and hooded seals among the
species expected to experience a reduction in the size of their
ranges if global warming continues (Learmonth et al. 2006).


Additional new research related links --

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339547
(originally publised by the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association)

http://canadianveterinarians.net/ShowText.aspx?ResourceID=378

http://ice-glaces.ec.gc.ca/App/WsvPageDsp.cfm?ID=1&Lang=eng
General interest, Ice Flow Data (Canadian Ice Service)

[sparks19]

Thank you very much for your imput. You make great points. I almost
asked Karen to lock this thread because some people don't seem to be
able to accept anothers opinions for what they are. Their opinions, no more
no less.People should be able to express a thought without be attacked and
insulted because of it. Geeze, it just a discussion, everyone's thoughts are
worth hearing even if you don't agree with them.Chill already. :)

You mean kind of like How Dr goodnow was attacked for her view point earlier in the thread? or is it only uncalled for when it is the other opinion? I honestly don't see anything like you describe above except for where someone was called a crazy lady for not sharing the same opinion... and that was quickly put to rest from both sides... which is nice. But that is neither here nor there now.

Blue Frog..... Very interesting links. Lots of good information in there..... a good read and lots of info to mull over.

this is totally off topic but we watched a special the other night about caribou and Wolves and how the wolves depend on the migration pattern of the Caribou to feed their young. if that migration pattern changes they are left to starve to death because there is literally not much else to prey on in the tundra for the Wolves. I would have thought there would be at least something else for them to prey on but there really isn't and it was very interesting to see how much they depend on ONE species to survive.... they sometimes don't eat for months. It makes me wonder what the true predator/prey ratio is for seals and the like.

[lizbud]

Thanks for the info Blue Frog. :) I had read reports similar to the info in the first link & wonder if government gives it the thought that it deserves.

The article by the Canadian Vets. Assn. is very enlighning.

"Background

Young harp seals, approximately 3-4 weeks old, account for 90% or more of the commercial catch in Canadian waters. These seals are weaned at about 12 days of age and have lost their newborn white fur (“whitecoats”) by the time they are hunted, although they continue to spend the majority of their time resting on ice floes. These animals have particularly thin skulls that can be completely crushed by one or a few strong blows with a hakapik (a long club). Therefore, the CVMA considers this a rapid, efficient, and humane means of killing young seals if conducted properly.

Specifically, the CVMA recommends that, when a hakapik is used, each seal should be hit with a minimum of three strong blows to its skull in order to ensure complete destruction of both cerebral hemispheres. When rifles are used, the CVMA supports the current Marine Mammal Regulations specifying the minimum velocity and energy of bullets that can be used in the hunt, as bullets meeting these specifications are more likely to kill an animal even if they do not directly hit its brain case, as compared to bullets of lower velocity and energy. Regardless of the killing method, the CVMA strongly asserts that the sealer must check by palpation that the skull is crushed to ensure that the animal is dead before it is dragged with a hook or is bled.

The CVMA opposes the shooting of seals in the water as this can result in an unacceptably high rate of loss of these animals at some times of the year (3). Also in some regions of the Atlantic coast, subsistence hunters rely on the use of nets set in water to catch and drown the animals. The CVMA opposes this method of hunting, as drowning is considered to be a protracted and, therefore, inhumane form of death.

The CVMA believes that harvest of seal populations must be done in a sustainable manner, using the principle of precautionary approach. The CVMA does not support an annual harvest of seals above the replacement yield for that population (defined as the number of animals that can be taken in a given year without reducing the total population in the next year) (4). Because the CVMA is concerned about the health and welfare of animal populations, as well as of individual animals, continued population studies are essential."


I wonder what the compliance rate is ?

[Puckstop31]

EDIT: quote removed as being inadvertantly offensive, as not indended that way.

If the mods (lizbud) asked you to remove this...


WHAT A DOUBLE STANDARD.

And we "right wingers" are called Nazi's. Talk about your thought police.

The truth has nothing to hide. I WANT people to say what they mean and mean what they say. Political correctness never changed a mind, it only suppresses discussion. (I.E. what the Nazis did in Germany)

;)

[Puckstop31]

Thank you very much for your imput. You make great points. I almost
asked Karen to lock this thread because some people don't seem to be
able to accept anothers opinions for what they are. Their opinions, no more
no less.People should be able to express a thought without be attacked and
insulted because of it. Geeze, it just a discussion, everyone's thoughts are
worth hearing even if you don't agree with them.Chill already. :)

Hmmm....

Like when you asked certain people to edit posts because they said things that were offensive to YOU? I was the target of the "offensive" stuff and it did not bother me one bit.

The double standard you constantly display is amazing. Political Correctness at it's worst. You claim to be fair, but the only viewpoints you suppress are ones opposite your own.

Look up the word facist and tell me what you find.

[sparks19]

Thanks for the info Blue Frog. :) I had read reports similar to the info in the first link & wonder if government gives it the thought that it deserves.

The article by the Canadian Vets. Assn. is very enlighning.

"Background

Young harp seals, approximately 3-4 weeks old, account for 90% or more of the commercial catch in Canadian waters. These seals are weaned at about 12 days of age and have lost their newborn white fur (“whitecoats”) by the time they are hunted, although they continue to spend the majority of their time resting on ice floes. These animals have particularly thin skulls that can be completely crushed by one or a few strong blows with a hakapik (a long club). Therefore, the CVMA considers this a rapid, efficient, and humane means of killing young seals if conducted properly.

Specifically, the CVMA recommends that, when a hakapik is used, each seal should be hit with a minimum of three strong blows to its skull in order to ensure complete destruction of both cerebral hemispheres. When rifles are used, the CVMA supports the current Marine Mammal Regulations specifying the minimum velocity and energy of bullets that can be used in the hunt, as bullets meeting these specifications are more likely to kill an animal even if they do not directly hit its brain case, as compared to bullets of lower velocity and energy. Regardless of the killing method, the CVMA strongly asserts that the sealer must check by palpation that the skull is crushed to ensure that the animal is dead before it is dragged with a hook or is bled.

The CVMA opposes the shooting of seals in the water as this can result in an unacceptably high rate of loss of these animals at some times of the year (3). Also in some regions of the Atlantic coast, subsistence hunters rely on the use of nets set in water to catch and drown the animals. The CVMA opposes this method of hunting, as drowning is considered to be a protracted and, therefore, inhumane form of death.

The CVMA believes that harvest of seal populations must be done in a sustainable manner, using the principle of precautionary approach. The CVMA does not support an annual harvest of seals above the replacement yield for that population (defined as the number of animals that can be taken in a given year without reducing the total population in the next year) (4). Because the CVMA is concerned about the health and welfare of animal populations, as well as of individual animals, continued population studies are essential."


I wonder what the compliance rate is ?

I'm sure you could find something online to give you an idea.... how reliable it is... who knows, it is afterall on the internet.

But I just can't imagine that all these sealers would just willingly by pass the recommendations so they could see the seal suffer. Of course.... there are lazy people in every profession.... there are bad seeds in every group.... but I would venture to guess that most of them do their jobs efficiently or there would be a bigger broohaha than there already is. I'm sure they are closely watched by numerous animal rights groups etc etc. if they all were just gutting the seals alive I'm sure you would be hearing about it.... A LOT. The media would make a killing off of that story I'm sure.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

FWIW, my faith is not driven by a book. I did not sit down... read the bible and think "hey this sounds good to me I'll just go with it" :p My faith is driven by what I have felt and experienced.... it is very hard to explain but my faith is based on my encounters with God. It sounds strange to someone who hasn't experienced it or doesn't know they have experienced it.... but to me it is more real than the nose on my face. Not because some book tells me so... but because of my experiences with God. Again.... sounds strange but to me it is real.

BTW, winnie the pooh is real :D although I suppose the original Pooh is sadly no longer around... but he was a real bear :D lol and Christopher Robin a real boy. OK.... I know entirely too much useless winnie the pooh info. ha



However, if I disappear from the face of the earth tonight I will be convinced by your point of view :D

Still here folks :D


Sparks: In the same way that my lack of faith is driven by what I have felt and experienced I guess. Maybe I will "follow the bear" :D Any news on Piglet?

Lizbud: From my point of view I don't feel that I have attacked anyone or been attacked by anyone in this thread. I feel that I was able to express my view and that the answers I received were very well considered and well written.

Each to their own

[sparks19]

Still here folks :D


Sparks: In the same way that my lack of faith is driven by what I have felt and experienced I guess. Maybe I will "follow the bear" :D Any news on Piglet?

Lizbud: From my point of view I don't feel that I have attacked anyone or been attacked by anyone in this thread. I feel that I was able to express my view and that the answers I received were very well considered and well written.

Each to their own


LOL.... Piglet? hmmmm I will have to look into that :D haha. I personally hope eeyore is real.... he's cute.

I just remember it was a "part of our heritage" commercial. I think he was a black bear originally :D and Christpher Robin loved him so much they wrote a book about him. He's named after Winnipeg lol... hence Winnie. I'm such a nerd lol.

[king2005]

OMG! I am so sorry for my flippant remark. I did not realise that such atrocities existed. Abject apologies to anyone I may have offended. My msn name is "put brain in gear before opening mouth......."

No offence taken. Just wanted to point out that that type of thing happens.

[Blue_Frog]

I have gone over the Seal Hunt with my sister every year ... year in, year out my inbox is flooded with anti-sealing campaigns, protests and petitions from her. My sister is a member of PETA, Animal Alliance, Wild at Heart and others. She runs fur protests (topless - heres a link to a picture, and nothing is really shown in it. It is also legal to be topless in Ontario regardless of gender. My sister is the one in the middle (http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n19/bluefrog_ca/fur1sm.jpg)) against the fur industry, runs protests against the seal industry, and many other things. She does a lot of good work for animal rescue and wild animal rehabilitation, and i applaud her for many of the works that she does, however occasionally her methods seem a little over the top for me - but hey, to each their own.

However, I like to research anything before I take a stand on an issue - hence all the links that I posted to this thread. I have my stance, and I feel that others should be able to have theirs as well with all the facts presented evenly from both sides.

So, on that note I hope that the links were useful for presenting the facts. And, if anyone wants to join an anti-fur protest in Toronto, just drop me a PM and ill get you in touch with my sister... topless optional ;)

[Miss Z]

Hmmm....

Like when you asked certain people to edit posts because they said things that were offensive to YOU? I was the target of the "offensive" stuff and it did not bother me one bit.

The double standard you constantly display is amazing. Political Correctness at it's worst. You claim to be fair, but the only viewpoints you suppress are ones opposite your own.

Look up the word facist and tell me what you find.

I don't think we need to resort to primary school insults here. I'm sure she is familiar with the definition of 'facist', and quite frankly to label someone as such is appalling. You may claim to be the more experienced party here but the anger that comes across in this post does not show this in its best light. Perhaps have a go at rephrasing and maybe you will be credited with more authority on the matter.

Plus, as yet, how do you know it was her who asked the link to be removed? That's a shot in the dark if I ever saw one.

And finally, I believe lizbud has been very fair throughout this whole thread. It was her who stood up against someone sharing her own views when that person called another 'crazy'. I would say that's pretty fair. I don't claim to be particularly fair as I know my opinions won't be changed. How fair do you claim to be, just out of interest?

I have been enlightened a little by this thread, were it not for the ravines of brewing tensions that have to be crossed to get to the bare-boned facts. I, as much as others, think a debate is spineless unless you can relate to facts on the opposite side. It can strengthen your own opinions in more ways than one and widens your horizons on the matter. So please, continue to post your views, but don't expect that by dictating them you will get very far.

Perhaps I might even go as far to say that I've found it interesting how a couple of good points from one angle are blindly ignored by the other, and that goes for both sides. It seems that whilst people on either side appear to have all the answers, they also seem to be selective about the ones they share.

[Puckstop31]

I don't think we need to resort to primary school insults here. I'm sure she is familiar with the definition of 'facist', and quite frankly to label someone as such is appalling. You may claim to be the more experienced party here but the anger that comes across in this post does not show this in its best light. Perhaps have a go at rephrasing and maybe you will be credited with more authority on the matter.

This is far from a "primary school insult" and I am not angry. I simply find it disturbing to see that certain people can say offensive things, while others (who just happen to have a view opposite of their own) are asked to change things.

Of course, life is not fair nor do I expect it to be but I just thought this should be said.

As for labelling someone a facist, what is so apalling about that? Why can we not say what we mean and mean what we say anymore in this world? The world would be a better place if we simply did so.


Plus, as yet, how do you know it was her who asked the link to be removed? That's a shot in the dark if I ever saw one.

I don't want to drag anyone down with me, so I am not naming names but I know it to be true.


And finally, I believe lizbud has been very fair throughout this whole thread. It was her who stood up against someone sharing her own views when that person called another 'crazy'. I would say that's pretty fair. I don't claim to be particularly fair as I know my opinions won't be changed. How fair do you claim to be, just out of interest?

This is not about being fair. This is about the whole story getting air and letting people decide for themselves. I simply believe there is a double standard when it comes to who is able to say what here.

[Sophist]

Yes, your primary supporter said it was ok because god said so. Sorry, but the bible doesn't count as empirical evidence. :p

I appreciate your attempts to use logic and research to back your claims...even if I find your ultimate conclusion wrong. I too get annoyed with anecdotal evidence and the feeling that, whoever is willing to argue the longest and the loudest will "win" the debate.

I will admit I'm no expert on seals, or marine life in general. I do however feel that a more eco-friendly (and seal friendly) solution is surely out there for dealing with this "overpopulation." I will attempt to do a little research myself and see if I can't find some good data on this, and I'll check out the links you provided.

Another thing I have been asking for.

I never weighed in on their arguments, I only said I was glad to see more people trying to see more than one side of the argument, so no need to chastise me about biblical citations.

[Sophist]

Hey....there is right, and there is wrong....your opinion alone is based on what you perceive to be right or wrong.



Although, if you use reasoning like that, then there is no way you COULD reasonably argue against using religious tenets as arguments. After all, that IS what decides 'right' and 'wrong' for most people.


Can't have your cake and eat it, too.

[Sophist]

Puck,

Again if it was a decision between someone evil such as Hitler and your dog I think most people would save their pet before they save a Hilter, or a Jack the Ripper. A great deal of people would save their pet before they would go back in to save a child molester. I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking that way. And no I don't think that EVERY human life is more important then an animal. Some people don't deserve help. Just because my compassion is different then yours does not make me ill. It's a free country and I can help whomever I so choose, give money or time to whatever charity I want.
Staring an animal in the eyes and blowing it's brains out makes me wonder about your mental health, kindness and goodness of heart. What about your dog will you shot him as well if you are bored and need to unwind?

Animals don't hunt for fun or to hang a trophy. They hunt for survival. Nor do they molest their young. Their hearts in many ways are kinder and more loving then humans. As for being on top of the food chain, I don't know about you but my level of compassion is not decided by someones IQ.
Just because a dog, hamster or rabbit is less intelligent then a human does not make their life worth less. I am sure if we could speak to them they would tell you how much they love their lives and don't want to suffer or die. Just as it doesn't make a difference if a person with Altzheimers or mental retardation needs help. Their IQ might be less then a dogs but my compassion again isn't doled out that way. I just don't care about the evil people.


It is wrong and unfair to suggest that all people hunt simply because they are bored and want to unwind.

And I'll give you that animals may be less prone to molesting their young before they are old enough to willingly mate, but if those are your guidelines... I've known of a whole heck of a lot less cases of people eating their young. That isn't an entirely uncommon phenomenon in the animal world.

Say what you want about Jack the Ripper, he probably wouldn't have eaten his own babies. That hamster in the cage next to him... I'm not so sure. :p

I don't think the 'good' and 'evil' debate holds a lot more water here than the religious debate does.


And please, please, please tell me you didn't place the mentally handicapped on par with dogs and bunnies?

[Sophist]

Just on the religion front:

I always am a little vexed when religious quotes are brought into an arguement too. I agree with Denise for the most part. What always springs to mind that whilst people's opinions may be based on faith, that faith is by no means the same for all involved. What about someone who is Muslim, or Jewish? Bible quotes mean nothing to them. That's why I always believe faith and debate should keep apart. But then, that's just my view. I'm sure plenty disagree.

I've also been a little surprised as to some attitudes here. I've raised an eyebrow a couple of times on these last few pages, it seems some people may be getting a little big for their boots. Can we not just let this be by now? Sure, not all people here are fact storage facilities, nor are we emotionless robots who fire information at each other constantly until the other runs out of ammo. Some of us get our ideas and opinions from a little thing called gut feeling. Maybe even conscience or morals. Of course this is nothing unless backed up by at least a few facts, but nonetheless it is a strong arguement in any case. If you saw bullies beating a kid in the street, would you not act upon morals instead of weighing up pros and cons of all possible outcomes? I sincerely hope that would be so.

My opinions will not change by any facts. I live by my morals. For anyone else, well whatever floats your boat is fine by me.

Thanks. I'll get off my soapbox now.

Once again, "No religion, go by your morals"?

You cannot do that. I have not relied on religious arguments, but you cannot promote moral or opinion or emotion-based stances for a debate, and then say religion can't be a part of that.

For most people, even if they aren't actively and staunchly religious, religion and morals are pretty inseperably intertwined.

[sparks19]

Once again, "No religion, go by your morals"?

You cannot do that. I have not relied on religious arguments, but you cannot promote moral or opinion or emotion-based stances for a debate, and then say religion can't be a part of that.

For most people, even if they aren't actively and staunchly religious, religion and morals are pretty inseperably intertwined.


Thank you......

I thought that was just KNOWN. Where do you think my morals and beliefs stem from? MY FAITH. How can you ask me questions on my morals and beliefs and then tell me I can't bring up the subject that played the biggest part in the molding of my morals and beliefs. I know not everyone believes what I believe so that is why they say you shouldn't bring religious beliefs into a debate.... but when it is a question of your morals and beliefs it can't be done. I am not telling them they must believe what I believe.... I'm just giving my opinion just like everyone else.... if my opinion includes religious content well than thats how it is.

[Miss Z]

I personally don't think that morals and faith are the same thing. I grant that they are similar, but I don't consider them to be the same.

For me, faith is based on what one believes is right in their religion. I do not have any problem with it whatsoever, and if someone believes something is wrong or right because of their faith then sobeit. My reasoning for faith and debate being better apart was that not everyone shares the same religion, if any at all. Not everyone can relate to religion. I certainly can't, I've thought about it my whole life but as yet nothing has convinced me that there could be a god.

Morals, on the other hand, is something you feel for yourself. Whether they've been imprinted on your mind ever since you can remember or whether they were sparked by faith doesn't really make a difference. They are always there in your gut, telling you when something is right or wrong. You don't need to quote anything to explain them, it's simply an emotion, and a strong one at that. And where it importantly differs from religion is that whilst people may not share your own morals, they can at least relate to having them.

That is how I see it anyway. I have no faith but a heck of a lot of morals.

Puck, I thank you for being more civil in your recent post, now I can relate to you more. If you did find out from a reliable source why the link was removed then I take back what I said, although of course I could not have comprehended that was the case beforehand. I know we should all be able to say what we think and I agree with that, but the truth is, that just isnt how humans as a race work. Saying what people want to say wrote history, made all our wars, murders and punishments. Here it's evidently driving divisions between members of this forum. I believe that there's a time and a place for everything to be said, but you have to find said time and place first.

[sparks19]

I personally don't think that morals and faith are the same thing. I grant that they are similar, but I don't consider them to be the same.

.


Well then there is our problem :D

we will have to agree to disagree because for me.... while they may be different words.... my morals stem GREATLY from my faith. Does it need to be quoted in regular conversation? no.... but when you state your reasoning for something and someone says "what makes you say that" then I find it IS nessecary to quote it and tell what makes one say what they said and if that is from your faith then thats where the quote will come from. Hmmm I didn't explain that very well.

[DrKym]

On this I will have to agree with Sophist and to a very large degree MissZ,
I teach religion, both ancient and Modern and yet practice none of what I teach, as a religion.

To Quote to me from the Bible, well I could if necessary out quote it and give the history behind the verses, same for the Koran, Torah etc.

How ever, I feel that my beliefs are truly by my gut and what we are all born with, the ability to be both good and evil the ability to choose, and that fact that everyone differs in their opinion of each.

I feel I have seen on this thread some very serious and well thought out opinions. I respect all of them even if I do not hold them as my own.

Just my thoughts

[Miss Z]

Thank you Kym, that was an elegant way of putting a part of what I was getting at. Guess I shouldn't try to write posts and do German homework at the same time. ;)

Sparks, by no means mistake what I say for completely disregarding religion from debate. I do not mean that it is wrong to give reasons for why you believe something is so, if you are questioned. I am sorry if it came across that way, re-reading my posts I can see that it might have done. What I just find odd is the blatant answer of putting it all down to God and then not accepting any further question, the kind of 'because it says so' attitude. If it has depth and feeling backed up by morals and facts alike, then I see that as a valid reason for your views. I still see a stark difference between morals and faith, but I also agree to disagree on this one. :D

[Pawsitive Thinking]

LOL.... Piglet? hmmmm I will have to look into that :D haha. I personally hope eeyore is real.... he's cute.

Couldn't agree more :D Kanga used to annoy me though