While Doing Your Taxes This year

[lizbud]

While you're doing your taxes, remember:

Should Bush's latest "emergency funding" request pass, Americans will have given about $90,000 to EVERY Iraqi family.

And, for your amusement, here's a ticker giving the running cost of Bush's War of Choice: Compare the costs to your community.


http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

[Edwina's Secretary]

I pay alot of taxes. And I have always felt ...regardless of which party was in control...it was my part of the deal...the price of admission to live in a free society that takes care of its own. I have lived elsewhere and understood the value we got for out money.

For the first time I do not feel that way. I feel I live in a less free society...with a more expansive, intrusive government. I feel less safe in the world at large as well as at home.

The federal deficit is huge. Beyond huge. And it was a surplus a few short years ago. It will have to be paid.

I am not naive. All governments have elements of dishonesty, arrogance, incompetence and self-interest.

But this one is bigger, more expensive and spends money on a war that was not supported by facts nor the international community. It cuts taxes for the rich while increasing spending out of the realm of counting. It does not listen...will not hear...any position that differs from its own. Its arrogance or incompetence...I cannot decide which is greater.

So I'll pay my taxes...because that is my obligation...but sadly I feel I am getting a very raw deal.

[columbine]

ES - yeah, the mutineers are at the helm, the rudder's broken, and there's a storm blowing, but hold fast to the ballot box, the newspaper, and library. We'll chase 'em off with bright light (like the crew of the Black Pearl!) and ride this thing out. We've got to. We grew up believing that it's right to tell the truth, and we'll keep telling it. Even if half the crew went drunk and soft a generation ago, the castaways we've picked up along the route can haul on a rope and climb the rigging as well as we ever could, and this ship is still afloat.

Love, Columbine (unabashed Patrick O'Brian fan)

[lizbud]

The sad fact is we are losing much , much more than money. We are
losing American men & woman, sons & daughters & for what good purpose?

Indiana is one of the 4 states that are sending more Indiana National Guard
soldiers back into the fight. The largest callup since WWII.

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6345778

[wombat2u2004]

[QUOTE=lizbud]The sad fact is we are losing much , much more than money. We are
losing American men & woman, sons & daughters & for what good purpose?

Well....for the purpose of fighting terrorism of course !!!!
Wombat

[Pam]

Just had my taxes done on Saturday so this caught my eye. Liz, this is sobering. Those numbers whiz by and sort of remind me of the way the numbers whiz by at the gas tank when I ask to *fill it up.* It's all just too depressing. :(

[Puckstop31]

I want the war to end just as much as anybody else. But, because of the nature of this enemy we must end it by winning. Short of that, we must at least ensure Iraq can sustain itself, else all of this money and lives spent will really be for nothing. Unless Iraq can sustain itself it will just be gobbled up by Iran... THEN what? You think oil is expensive now???

We could all argue until we are blue in the face about WHY we are there. Some say it is ALL based in lies. I disagee with that, but it guess it does not matter anymore. What matters now is that we are there. We have invested money and we have invested American lives. Does that not make it worth winning? Are we as a people really that weak willed?

Finally, this country was earned by people who belived freedom is worth dying for. If people are not free, they are not truly alive. To me, freedom will ALWAYS be worth a fight. Anybodies freedom, as it is the one true hope for THIS world.

[wombat2u2004]

I want the war to end just as much as anybody else. But, because of the nature of this enemy we must end it by winning. Short of that, we must at least ensure Iraq can sustain itself, else all of this money and lives spent will really be for nothing. Unless Iraq can sustain itself it will just be gobbled up by Iran... THEN what? You think oil is expensive now???

We could all argue until we are blue in the face about WHY we are there. Some say it is ALL based in lies. I disagee with that, but it guess it does not matter anymore. What matters now is that we are there. We have invested money and we have invested American lives. Does that not make it worth winning? Are we as a people really that weak willed?

Finally, this country was earned by people who belived freedom is worth dying for. If people are not free, they are not truly alive. To me, freedom will ALWAYS be worth a fight. Anybodies freedom, as it is the one true hope for THIS world.

Yup !!!!!
Wom

[moosmom]

ES,

Boy did you hit the nail on the head!! I am totally fed up with Bush and can't wait till the day when he's out. Everytime I turn on the tv, there he is, making up yet ANOTHER lame excuse why we're still fighting a war that we have no business fighting. We were there to show the Iraqis HOW to fight their battles, not to fight it FOR them. It's not our fault these idiots just don't get it.

[Puckstop31]

ES,

Boy did you hit the nail on the head!! I am totally fed up with Bush and can't wait till the day when he's out. Everytime I turn on the tv, there he is, making up yet ANOTHER lame excuse why we're still fighting a war that we have no business fighting. We were there to show the Iraqis HOW to fight their battles, not to fight it FOR them. It's not our fault these idiots just don't get it.

Do you think any other politician is going to do anything different that will make a difference? I am not defending Bush as he has handled this very poorly.

But more importantly, who are "these idiots" (I thought name calling was taboo here?) and what do they not get?

[Pembroke_Corgi]

It is so disheartening to think our society will spend so much on death and destruction. And it's completely disgusting to think that the only keeping us continually over there is the arrogance of Mr. Bush...he NEVER admit he's wrong, and pulling out now would be admitting defeat to him. How can we ever "win?" All we can ever do is lose more and more lives. :(

[Puckstop31]

It is so disheartening to think our society will spend so much on death and destruction.

Freedom never has been and never will be free. Yes it is horrible but it is true. What is your freedom worth to you? Better yet, what are you willing to spend to ensure others might be free so as to enjoy what we have?


How can we ever "win?" All we can ever do is lose more and more lives. :(

We can win. The objective of war is not to simply kill people and destroy stuff. The objective of war is to destroy the enemies will to fight. Conducting this conflict the way we do now, we certainly do have zero chance of success. But we could certainly win.

You all say if we support the troops, bring them home. How is that supporting them? If they come home without victory, then all they have sacrificed will be for naught. Speaking as a soldier, that is worse than death. If we as a people really supported them, we would want them to WIN, NOW.

I say this all the time... To those of you who hate The President, look at what is going on in the world outside that prisim of hate. What do you see? Look at it in a context of history.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Freedom never has been and never will be free. Yes it is horrible but it is true. What is your freedom worth to you? Better yet, what are you willing to spend to ensure others might be free so as to enjoy what we have?



We can win. The objective of war is not to simply kill people and destroy stuff. The objective of war is to destroy the enemies will to fight. Conducting this conflict the way we do now, we certainly do have zero chance of success. But we could certainly win.

You all say if we support the troops, bring them home. How is that supporting them? If they come home without victory, then all they have sacrificed will be for naught. Speaking as a soldier, that is worse than death. If we as a people really supported them, we would want them to WIN, NOW.

I say this all the time... To those of you who hate The President, look at what is going on in the world outside that prisim of hate. What do you see? Look at it in a context of history.
You can't "win"a war against terrorists. The idea that bombing an entire nation will eradicate the terrorists is completely ridiculous. I would venture to guess that we are breeding more hatred and terrorism against the US. And WHO is the enemy exactly? That part has never made sense. We killed their leader and now we have a new government completely alien to them set up...WHO are we fighting anymore?

[Grace]

I want the war to end just as much as anybody else. But, because of the nature of this enemy we must end it by winning.



And just who do you picture as surrendering - Sunnis, Shiites, Bin Laden?

Pembroke Corgi is correct. You cannot win a war against terrorists. Terror is a tactic, not a country, a city, a province.

[Puckstop31]

This enemy is not so much a person or group of people as it is an idea. There is only one thing this enemy, whom I happen to believe is a minority of people who practice Islam, understands and that is strength. You beat them by not quitting and showing them that we will do whatever it takes. See, they understand that we as a people are not willing to endure hardships to protect our way of life, at least not all of us.

This enemy will never "surrender". But if we are willing to be strong enough, they will understand that we cannot and WILL not be messed with.

It is sad though that we are our own worst enemy.

[Puckstop31]

Pembroke Corgi is correct. You cannot win a war against terrorists. Terror is a tactic, not a country, a city, a province.

You are thinking in conventional terms. This is most certainly a unconventional conflict. Still, just as von Clausewitz said, you win wars by destroying an enemies WILL TO FIGHT. So far, the terrorists are winning. Listening to yourselves should be the only proof you need of that.

[wombat2u2004]

Puckstop31 wrote : It is sad though that we are our own worst enemy.

And that is exactly the way it has become.....the IN thing to do !!!!
Just like in SVN before this war, public opinion....swayed by a power hungry media has managed to almost make the US lose any credibility they have left.
These so called terrorists have been nibbling away at your boundaries for years....not because you are in Iraq or anywhere else for that matter.....they simply just want to have a go at you.....they HATE you folks.
So when is the penny going to drop ???? When they knock on your front door ???? Ohhhhhhhh......ok.....that won't happen....right ??? I mean who would EVER think that could happen in the USA.
Do a little bit of waking up to yourselves folks....turn off the TV, throw the rules of engagement in the bin where it belongs, and allow the soldiers to do what they do best !!!!!
Wombat

[lizbud]

It is so disheartening to think our society will spend so much on death and destruction. And it's completely disgusting to think that the only keeping us continually over there is the arrogance of Mr. Bush...he NEVER admit he's wrong, and pulling out now would be admitting defeat to him. How can we ever "win?" All we can ever do is lose more and more lives. :(


You are so right. :) All we can hope for is a graceful exit with the least
amount of casualties. The sooner the better.

[Grace]

It is beginning to seem that only the dead will see the end of this war.

[Edwina's Secretary]

"Those who forget history are forced to repeat it."

Over 50,000 dead. Vietnam. We had to stay or communism would be on our shores. The domino theory. Communism taking over the world.

Finally...we cut and ran.

Communism did not spread. In fact, it died a natural death in some places. China is now a HUGE trading partner for us....a country to which we export jobs....and oh yeah...I can get really cheap manicures.

To continue fighting out of hubris....an inability to admit error....a war where neither the enemy nor victory can be defined...is just so sad....

[Grace]

"Declare victory and get out."

George Aiken, R-Vermont
Advice given to Presidents Johnson and Nixon during the Vietnam conflict.

Valid and applicable today.

[Puckstop31]

"Those who forget history are forced to repeat it."

Over 50,000 dead. Vietnam. We had to stay or communism would be on our shores. The domino theory. Communism taking over the world.

Finally...we cut and ran.

Communism did not spread. In fact, it died a natural death in some places. China is now a HUGE trading partner for us....a country to which we export jobs....and oh yeah...I can get really cheap manicures.

To continue fighting out of hubris....an inability to admit error....a war where neither the enemy nor victory can be defined...is just so sad....

There is one major difference between then and now. Communists are motivated by a political aspiration. Terrorists are motivated by a deep religious faith. HUGE. Do you go to church ES? What would you do in the defence of your faith? Now, compare that to what you would do in the defence of your politics.

The world did not destroy itself during the Cold War because of the idea of mutually assured destruction. This current enemy has no such fear. If it were not for the fact I have looked this enemy in the eye and listened to them speak, I would probably be on your side here ES.

[Lady's Human]

I really and truly hate to get into this discussion for a number of reasons, but I must.

The Soviet Union replaced religion with politics. Communism WAS the religion of the official Soviet machine.

It is highly debatable whether MAD worked or not. There were many other factors involved in the relationship between the USSR and the US, MAD was just one of them. Many doctrinal publications released since the end of the Cold War show that there was much discussion inside the USSR about whether or not a nuclear war was winnable, and they had wargamed many scenarios that showed the general staff that MILITARILY a nuclear exchange was a possible win for the Soviet Union.

My point is basically that you cannot make simplistic statements about a situation with many, many variables and have them be accurate in any way, shape or form.

[Puckstop31]

I really and truly hate to get into this discussion for a number of reasons, but I must.

The Soviet Union replaced religion with politics. Communism WAS the religion of the official Soviet machine.

It is highly debatable whether MAD worked or not. There were many other factors involved in the relationship between the USSR and the US, MAD was just one of them. Many doctrinal publications released since the end of the Cold War show that there was much discussion inside the USSR about whether or not a nuclear war was winnable, and they had wargamed many scenarios that showed the general staff that MILITARILY a nuclear exchange was a possible win for the Soviet Union.

My point is basically that you cannot make simplistic statements about a situation with many, many variables and have them be accurate in any way, shape or form.

Interesting comments...

Indeed, one could say that Communism was the religion of the USSR. But their religion did not offer a much better existance after death. Because of this, one could say that a Islamic Terrorists views on religion play a much more important role here, no?

Also, MAD certainly was not the only reason that line was not crossed during the Cold War. The West's victory in the Cold War, IMHO, was more economic than anything else. Ronald Regan, again IMHO, won the Cold War in 1987 when we walked away from SALT II after refusing to negotiate about SDI. He knew that the Soviet Union was on the verge of economic collapse and could not afford to keep up in a SDI race.

I will also agree (as I also have read extensivley on the subject) that the Soviet Union's leadership did think that it could win, in military terms, a nuclear conflict. This is shown by that from sometime in 1978 on their plans for war in central Europe were almost entirely nuclear in their methods. It was also interesting to notice that in some of the papers I read their reasoning for this was not because of a superior conventional capability of the Western powers, but because of terrain, especially in southern Germany, that was much more favorable to defence.

All this being said, I do not think my comments were overly simplified, because it IS simple. This current enemy WANTS to die. Their goal is to either win (which means you and I worship Allah and our wives submit to Sharia Law) or die trying. How does one combat such a threat?

[Edwina's Secretary]

We invaded Iraq because:

- The Iraqi government had Weapons of Mass Destruction which the UN was simply unable to find (opps!)

- Saddam was an evil dictator who was oppressing the freedom loving Iraqi people and we needed to remove him so democracy could flourish in the Middle East.

- GW himself has said there was no connection between Al Qaida and Iraq...at least not at the time we invaded.

We did not go there to fight Fundamentalist Muslims. 9/11 and the fight against Fundamentalist Muslims who want to destroy us because we love freedom -- smoke and mirrors that has been used to confuse and convince the public.

Fundamentalist of ANY kind are scary. The video on another thread -- the Most Hated Family in America - is a scary one. But I don't think we should invade Missouri because there is a nutty family (or church as they would say) in Kansas - advocating death and destruction.

[Marigold2]

The Soviet Union replaced religion with politics. Communism WAS the religion of the official Soviet machine.

This is so true. I remember when I lived in Germany and I worked in a department store. They had those guest workers come in from Communist countries to clean the store at night. I started to talk to some of them and that is exactly what they always said to me.
Communism is our God.
I almost got into a fist fight with this one Yugoslavian girl. I told her to go back to her country and work. If Communism was so great why was she is in Germany, and she said she couldn't find work in her country so I told her to go back home. That didn't sit well with her. She simply had no answer to give except that Communism was God.