Cesar Millan

[BorderColliez]

What exactly did Cesar Millan do that makes some people dislike him? I'm a little confused...

[critter crazy]

I dont know. I Love Cesar Millan! i think he is great, and does so much for the dog world! To me he is a Hero!

[DrKym]

He is charming and personable and has set back training 25 years. His methods are outdated and hyped up with a new flash to dazzle.

[BorderColliez]

I dont know. I Love Cesar Millan! i think he is great, and does so much for the dog world! To me he is a Hero!
I really enjoy his shows, and love him as well, but people say something about him forcing a pit bull to walk on a treadmill or something....??? :confused: Hmmph I'm confused.

(I am particularly in love with his pit bull named Daddy :D)

[BorderColliez]

He is charming and personable and has set back training 25 years. His methods are outdated and hyped up with a new flash to dazzle.
Great writing...entaining to read...interested words..lol. You should write a book. I mean, honestly!!! But his methods seem pretty good to me. I've been watching his shows for the last 3 weeks. What I am really wondering is the details of his...forcing a pit bull to walk on a treadmill or something alike??

[DrKym]

His methods have been outdated for years , he is a charming and personable person, however forcing any being to face a fear in a brutal manner and then using the issue of pack mentality is not only confusing to many people with dogs it is confusing to dog themselves.

Any show can be entertaining and mildly informative, however, there is no one way to train all dogs. They are individuals and the entire concept of training should be taken as a generalization, and some methods will work with some dogs and some will not. Passing off the conception that this method works all the time with all dogs is an injustice to owner mentality and also to the sentinel beings under our care.

[BorderColliez]

Mr.Goodnow, thank you and that is true.


What about this forcing a pit bull to work on a treadmill though???? Or something like that????

[DrKym]

Mr.Goodnow, thank you and that is true.


What about this forcing a pit bull to work on a treadmill though???? Or something like that????

LOL it is Dr. and I am a Mrs. when not at work,no matter though, the pit bull issue was that if the dog was tired it was less likely to misbehave, in and of itself that is accurate. A tired pup is a happy pup, but without counseling on the breed and it's unique care and the committment required to own such an amazing and powerful animal what good did it actually do?

[critter crazy]

On May 5 (http://www.answers.com/topic/may-5), 2006 (http://www.answers.com/topic/2006), a television producer for the TV series 8 Simple Rules (http://www.answers.com/topic/8-simple-rules-for-dating-my-teenage-daughter) filed a lawsuit against Millan, claiming that his labrador retriever (http://www.answers.com/topic/labrador-retriever) had been seriously injured while at Millan's training facility during an exercise routine on a treadmill.[21] (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12648003/). National Geographic released a statement that Millan was not present at the facility at the time of the alleged incident.



This is what I found on this site:
http://www.answers.com/topic/cesar-millan

[Giselle]

There are two main reasons that people don't like Cesar:

1- He uses flooding a method that most trainers abhor and believe is LOOOOONG outdated. Cesar believes that flooding will reduce a dog's anxiety to a certain fear. However, flooding is a two-way street. You either learn to ignore the fear OR you develop deeper fears. Oftentimes, it can be the latter. As the owner of a dog with severe public anxiety, flooding is not even one of my last resorts.

2- He uses punishment to "eliminate" bad behavior. However, many behaviorists and trainers debate that punishment merely suppresses the symptoms; it does not treat the cause.

Also, Cesar heavily believes in pack hierarchy and what he calls is 'dog psychology' - in other words, only give your dog what it needs to be fulfilled. He states on his website somewhere that dogs don't need love to be fulfilled and that that is a human need. That's a debatable topic in itself, but you can see already why some modern behaviorists/trainers criticize Millan's techniques.

Honestly, take everything you read and see from anybody with a grain of salt. Just because Millan can stop a dog from pulling with a collar pop and a "TSST!" doesn't mean you should go around popping your dog's collar and "TSST"-ing. :)

[DrKym]

There are two main reasons that people don't like Cesar:

1- He uses flooding a method that most trainers abhor and believe is LOOOOONG outdated. Cesar believes that flooding will reduce a dog's anxiety to a certain fear. However, flooding is a two-way street. You either learn to ignore the fear OR you develop deeper fears. Oftentimes, it can be the latter. As the owner of a dog with severe public anxiety, flooding is not even one of my last resorts.

2- He uses punishment to "eliminate" bad behavior. However, many behaviorists and trainers debate that punishment merely suppresses the symptoms; it does not treat the cause.

Also, Cesar heavily believes in pack hierarchy and what he calls is 'dog psychology' - in other words, only give your dog what it needs to be fulfilled. He states on his website somewhere that dogs don't need love to be fulfilled and that that is a human need. That's a debatable topic in itself, but you can see already why some modern behaviorists/trainers criticize Millan's techniques.

Honestly, take everything you read and see from anybody with a grain of salt. Just because Millan can stop a dog from pulling with a collar pop and a "TSST!" doesn't mean you should go around popping your dog's collar and "TSST"-ing. :)
WELL SAID thank you!

[BorderColliez]

Thank you everyone! You all have been tons of help!!


LOL it is Dr. and I am a Mrs. when not at work,no matter though, the pit bull issue was that if the dog was tired it was less likely to misbehave, in and of itself that is accurate. A tired pup is a happy pup, but without counseling on the breed and it's unique care and the committment required to own such an amazing and powerful animal what good did it actually do?
Oh, sorry :o :o

[DrKym]

Please don't be! My husband who is the Mr is also on this board. Just made the comment so you knw which Dr. you were talking with! :D
He goes by the otherdrgoodnow :)

[BorderColliez]

Please don't be! My husband who is the Mr is also on this board. Just made the comment so you knw which Dr. you were talking with! :D
He goes by the otherdrgoodnow :)
Ok thanks, I was soo embaressed...lol

[lute]

I honestly don't have a problem with Cesar Milan and his training. I think he does well at what he does. I don't look to him for guidence on traing although some people might.

[agilityk9trainer]

I think Dr,. Goodnow and Giselle have stated things very well. Cesar uses force training techniques. In other words, he adds punishment to his training. I, personally, use very little punishment in my training. My dogs work for me not out of fear, but out of a desire to please me and have fun. My training is a blast for my dogs. Just tonight, I was on the sofa watching TV, and I said something about "work." My sheltie about came out of his skin in excitement thinking we were going to go in the backyard to "work" (ie train). They live for it. They love it. Dogs trained with punishment do it to avoid punishment, not out of joy. My dogs do it for fun and love.

Cesar has pushed training back 20 years because we USED to use those methods (myself included). Those of us from those days see what Cesar is doing and know the results. Sure, they work. We used to use them. No, the end result isn't better because the dogs aren't working in joy. They're working in fear.

It is basically the old methods wrapped up and glitzed up for a new century. I'm very saddened he has gotten popular. It's made my job as a profesional trainer much more difficult!!

[wolfsoul]

I think some of his methods are good, some are debateable, and alot depend on the dog. I use both positive and negative reinforcement. I don't force dogs, I teach them. And when they are taught and choose not to listen, THEN I force them. In other words, my dogs learned in a positive manner, but know that if they don't listen they are going to be in trouble. Positive training is good because the dogs learn to enjoy their training. Negative reinforcement is good because you will get a dog that listens. Neither one is wrong. I want both adog that enjoys training and a dog that listens well, so I use both. Belgians vary from one end of the scale in temperament to another, and my dogs tend to be harder tempered and very high drive. I don't screw around with positive training if I know it's not going to work.

[BC_MoM]

His work is amazing, but I don't agree with him on some things. He's on this whole dominance trip thing.

[DrKym]

I think Dr,. Goodnow and Giselle have stated things very well. Cesar uses force training techniques. In other words, he adds punishment to his training. I, personally, use very little punishment in my training. My dogs work for me not out of fear, but out of a desire to please me and have fun. My training is a blast for my dogs. Just tonight, I was on the sofa watching TV, and I said something about "work." My sheltie about came out of his skin in excitement thinking we were going to go in the backyard to "work" (ie train). They live for it. They love it. Dogs trained with punishment do it to avoid punishment, not out of joy. My dogs do it for fun and love.

Cesar has pushed training back 20 years because we USED to use those methods (myself included). Those of us from those days see what Cesar is doing and know the results. Sure, they work. We used to use them. No, the end result isn't better because the dogs aren't working in joy. They're working in fear.

It is basically the old methods wrapped up and glitzed up for a new century. I'm very saddened he has gotten popular. It's made my job as a profesional trainer much more difficult!!


for those of us that are old...i.e. me
it(the years of outdatedness) has been pushed back farther, my guys are here as a last resort before PTS happens. I have a 89% sucess rate , not bad considering all the variables. Cesar is a personable and PC correct act to follow. In the short term.
My dogs work because they love to do it, there is a difference. A dog that obeys and a dog that works are 2 very different beings. Mine will do both, I am saddened to see the ones that obey, since that is fear and will never allow them to reach their full potential. It isn't hard to break a spirit, what is difficult, is to help them find it again.

just my opinion.

[anna_66]

I think some of his methods are good, some are debateable, and alot depend on the dog.
Jordan I couldn't agree more. I've tried some of his methods on my dogs, some work and some don't. What works on the girls doesn't always work on Bon, what works on Bon doesn't always work with the girls. It all depends on the dog.

I personally like Cesar and think he has a gift with dogs. But of course that's just my opinion.

[mike001]

I read his book, found it entertaining but wasn't impressed. He seemed to be on an ego trip. then when I read what he did with the threadmill thing I was totally turned off. I think he's mostly out for power over dogs, some of his methods I find border on cruelty. I personnally don't like his methods or him.

[wolfsoul]

Has anyone seen the South Park episode with Cesar Millan? By far my favourite episode. :D

[agilityk9trainer]

I want both adog that enjoys training and a dog that listens well, so I use both.

See, I get that using positive methods. Both a dog that enjoys training AND listens. We wouldn't have made it to the AKC Agility Nats if my dog didn't listen! :D

I think most people jump the gun and go for the pinch collars, choke chains, collar pops, ear pinches, nose slaps, etc. BEFORE giving all=positive methods a chance. They will work in high drive, over the top dogs. My dogs are very dominant, VERY high drive, VERY tough. Yet, I have taught them using all positive methods. And, the result is a dog who has pure joy in his job, isn't afraid of reprisal and runs like the wind.

I do find that between one to five percent of dogs (or rather their handlers) need to go to the more adversive methods I just mentioned. I personally find it much more difficult on the trainer to be all positive. Because of this, some people can't do it. They don't have the skills necessary. It takes great understanding of the dog, great timing and an excellent ability to read dog body language to be proficient at all positive. It's must much easier to collar pop a dog for bad behavior than learn how to shape and mold good behavior.

With any dog I train, I always start all positive and add in mild adversives (a soft spoken "no" or a "eck" for example) as the individual dog requires. Starting right off the bat with a training collar or other adversive is over-kill, and again, destroys that magical bond that all positive training creates.

I, too, have used a mix of positive and force training (punishment - not to be confused with reinforcement as punishment is not reinforcement). However, I still never reached the level of bond I was searching for until I dispensed with the heavy corrections.

[elizabethann]

Has anyone seen the South Park episode with Cesar Millan? By far my favourite episode. :D

agh nuts....I missed that one. I'll have to catch a repeat of it someday.

[lizbud]

I fail to see any" punishment" used in Cesar's dog interaction.His method
is as simple as it sounds & confounds some critics because it doesn't take
a lot of thought to communicate successfully with dogs.

[agilityk9trainer]

I fail to see any" punishment" used in Cesar's dog interaction.His method
is as simple as it sounds & confounds some critics because it doesn't take
a lot of thought to communicate successfully with dogs.

I don't think you know what "punishment" is when refering to Operant Conditioning (ie. how dogs - and people for that matter - learn). Here's a quick lesson.

In scholarly circles, they use the term "positive punishment" to refer to added punishment (not good punishment). Punishment is anything negative. It can range from a quite, softly spoken "no" to a "tssk" (which I believe Cesar uses in abundance) to a collar pop to a nose slap to an Alpha Roll to beating your dog with a brick. It's anything negative. People often don't realize they are using "punishment" because they don't consider what they are doing to be very harsh at all, but if it's designed to point out a bad behavior or correct a bad behavior, chances are it's a punishment. Some of the punishments I've heard Cesar uses are collar pops, verbal punishments, "flooding" (which I consider a punishment) and sticking his finger down a dog's throat. None of these are necessary to train a dog to listen and obey.

In Operant Conditioning, dogs learn by rewards and punishment, just like people. For instance, if a dog gets into the trash can, they get rewarded with great smells and possibly some tasty rotting food. Instant reward. The dog WILL repeat this behavior. He has learned that trash can = good smells = repeated behavior. However, if you make the trash can scary by placing a Snappy Trainer in it (a "Positive Punishment" here also called a remoter punisher), then the dog goes to the trash can. The Snappy Trainer goes off. Now, trash can = scary snappy things = stay away from trash can.

Yes, positive punishment works. However, what's more powerful is the positive approach (minus the punishment). By using rewards and play and fun, dogs don't work out of fear. They work out of joy. Those of you who have never trained all positive are really missing the boat. Believe me. The benefits are so strong in the bond you get with a dog trained using positive reinforcement. It's heads and tails abouve the other methods, which again, I have used. They are old school and outdated.

This evening on the CBS Evening News, they had a piece on the AKC Agility National Championships. The reporter (Steve Hartman, I believe) commented that after every run he saw, regardless of how many mistakes were made on course, the handlers came out praising and loving on their dogs. Why? How could this work? Remember, these are the cream of the crop of agility handlers and dogs nationwide. So, why do these successful handlers praise their dogs even when there were mistakes on the course? Shouldn't they be adding punishment, like Cesar would?

The answer is simple. If punosihing worked, you'd see handlers doing it. But it doesn't work. The dogs have to love what they're doing to do agility at that high of a level. They have to have tremendous speed and joy. If the handlers were punishing their dogs for mistakes on the course, what would the dogs eventually do? Why, run slower or shut down completely! The speed - the incredible joy - would be gone. There would be no top agility dogs in that nation...only slowly running dogs who were afraid to mess up because of reprisal. We don't want that. We want enthusiastic dogs who can't wait to get on the course and run like maniacs! We get what we want out of our dogs by rewarding the good behavior and ignoring the bad. Soon, the dog is only giving us good behaviors on the course, AND we still have maniac speed dogs out there.

Agiity is changing how we look at dog training. We are seeing a whole other world. Dogs can be trained - and extremely and highly trained (yes, the listen AND love it) - without much punishment at all. They can learn to love work - to live for it - to experience pure joy when working - and yet work perfectly and accurately with their handler.

It's a whole other way of thinking. Cesar is still back in the old days of punish to get results. We've moved so far beyond this. Yes, a little "positive punishment" is still acceptable. I certainly use the word "no" on occasion (although never with a green dog on the agility field). However, the old methods of collar pops, training collars, etc. are just that. Old methods. Very few dogs need this if trained properly in positive methods.

The positive way is a very powerful tool and still far too few people are aware of the power within their reach if they would but change their old school mindsets when it comes to training. Believe me. I used to be one.

[Vela]

You may be great at what you do, but you are NOT training dogs who would be labeled killers, dogs who have attacked people and other dogs.....an agility dog is something else entirely. You are comparing apples to oranges, not apples to apples. What Cesar does is completely different than what you are describing and for the dogs he is working with, and the people he is working with, it works! It's not the same thing at all as to what you describe so no matter what YOU do as a trainer with agility dogs, means nothing to the dogs he deals with. He doesn't hurt them, he puts them in their place in the pack order. I don't agree with everything he does, but what he does has a place and is needed. He deals with dogs with people problems, and people with dog problems, and helps them learn to coexist for the betterment of both. I don't see that as wrong.

He doesn't claim to be a "trainer", he helps people and their dogs learn how to communicate on a level both can understand so there is harmony in the home for both. He doesn't try to train agility dogs, or personal protection dogs, or dogs for the blind, he tries to fix problems that already EXIST between people and their dogs.

His pack of dogs do not act like they fear him one bit. They are happy to see him and are happy to do as he asks. They don't have the tail/head down posturing of fearful dogs. They do not run from him or cower before him. So I don't really know why you say he instills fear in them.

[dukedogsmom]

You are right, Vela. He's always saying "I train people and rehabilitate dogs" I think he's amazing and haven't seen any abuse at all.

[*LabLoverKEB*]

I personally love his show, and I think he is great with the dogs.

[wolfsoul]

I have to agree with Vela here. I train for agility, but I never let the fact escape that my dogs are high drive Belgians. They are dangerous dogs, simple as that. When Visa went to her first seminar (shortly after I got her) the host said she needed to be taken out of agility RIGHT away -- She was too dangerous. This was after two years of only positive training. I got her, saw a dog that wasn't eager to please, was not particularily motived, self-rewarded herself by not listening, and plain just didn't enjoy her training. She had very uncontrollable drive and a mild working sharpness which did make her a potential danger. I used alot of negatives, and it worked for her. Instead of not listening altogether, she stops listening only when she becomes bored of it, and then the training ends. She is now a controlled dog -- My service dog at that -- I got rid of the working sharpness and she is now reliable. And now that she knows what to do, she enjoys her training. But I will never be able to resort to ONLY positive -- every time I try, she starts to take advantage of me. She is a smart dog and she knows what she wants.

Having malinois in fur coats (lol), I honestly couldn't care less if my dog enjoyed what it was doing in the long term -- if it is a required command, they will do it, like it or not. I live under the idea that these dogs are dangerous and it is my job to control them. I am glad my dogs understand that there are consequences to their actions. I honestly can't think of any "positive" ways to control sharpness in a working dog.

My co-breeder is the same -- both positive and negative. She grew up with the Kohler method of training. Her dogs didn't have fun all the time, but they listened 100%. When she was a teenager she went to a positive training class. Her dog enjoyed it, but at the end of 8 weeks it jumped up and stole a chocolate bar from her hand. It would NEVER have even thought of doing that before the class. She liked the reliability of the harsher training and the dog's eagerness towards positive training. So she developed both a postitive and negative attitude.

[DrKym]

What I will say is this I have never needed to use a prong or a choke in over 15 years with "dangerous dogs" Rotts or Dobes or my daughters pitties. They respond so much differently than my early dogs did. I would never go back to that type of training. My dogs do what is asked of them at every opportunity because they want to, and honestly they make less errors then when I did use "corrective" techniques.

[wolfsoul]

You are seeing him deal with VERY problematic dogs, dogs on the verge of being put down often, because of their behavior problems, not based on any one breed, but on the dog's behavior. Breed has nothing to do with it, there are problems in all breeds of dogs with all types of people. He is not working with the "average dog" of whatever breed.

I am not basing it on Belgians -- I am basing it on Belgians with working sharpness. Belgians with working sharpness ARE put to sleep daily. If my dog ever shows any tendency to bite, I don't care if I have to use negative tactics to remove it. My dog was sharp her first two years I did not have her when she was only postitvely trained. An agility trainer told my cobreeder to put her down. Anyone here who has met Visa can attest to her very nice temperament. She is still drivey but she is no longer sharp. She is controlled. Solo I nipped right in the bud. And yes, I used negative training. But when it comes to biting, I really don't care.

[agilityk9trainer]

Having malinois in fur coats (lol), I honestly couldn't care less if my dog enjoyed what it was doing in the long term -- if it is a required command, they will do it, like it or not. I. I honestly can't think of any "positive" ways to control sharpness in a working dog.

How sad. I want my dogs to enjoy life, enjoy working and enjoy me. Yes, they do things they don't want to because I ask it. But they do it out of respect for me, not fear of me. There is a big difference.

Dr. Goodnow, I agree completely. My dogs make much fewer errors, too.

Also, I know several very aggressive agility dogs who are doing great having been rehabilitated using the all-positive methods. Must work, or they wouldn't be able to be off lead in such a stimulating atmosphere.

I've tasted force training. I've tasted force training mixed with positive training. I've tasted positive training. I won't go back.

Vela, the biggest problem with Cesar is just what you mentioned. He's working with aggressive dogs, and yet televises his methods. Then, Joe sitting at home thinks, "Hmmm. I'll collar pop my dog, too!" I've had person after person come up to me and say they were doing something Cesar did to their housepets with minor behavioral problems that could be easily fixed without going to such extreme measures. Frankly, he has no business having a national audience showing those methods to people who don't understand when the extremely rare case might be when they are acceptable to use.

I like that he doesn't claim to be a trainer, and yet uses the very same methods trainers used 20 eyars ago. I find that rather humerous!

As for instilling fear, I'm afraid you don't understand what I've been saying. I can tell by others' posts that they don't understand either. Dogs obey out of fear. They don't necessairly show the fear. But, they don't obey out of excitement, love and the pure joy. And, they don't obey out of respect...just fear of reprisal. Again, big difference.

I find it interesting that no one here who has ever trained a dog using mostly positive methods is coming on saying, "Oh, but Cesar IS right!" All of us who HAVE been there, done that are telling you guys who have never used both methods that the mostly positive route IS the best route. I strongly doubt Cesar has ever trained a dog using all positive methods either.

Unfortunately for the dogs in America, many people are again turning back to those old ways, thanks to Cesar, and the dogs are suffering because of it. :(

[Vela]

I am not basing it on Belgians -- I am basing it on Belgians with working sharpness. Belgians with working sharpness ARE put to sleep daily. If my dog ever shows any tendency to bite, I don't care if I have to use negative tactics to remove it. My dog was sharp her first two years I did not have her when she was only postitvely trained. An agility trainer told my cobreeder to put her down. Anyone here who has met Visa can attest to her very nice temperament. She is still drivey but she is no longer sharp. She is controlled. Solo I nipped right in the bud. And yes, I used negative training. But when it comes to biting, I really don't care.

Sorry I meant to quote Dr. Goodnow, before I replied, then I ended up deleting it anyway LOL. I was referring to what she had said, not you. I agree with what you've said so far. There is sometimes a need for both positive and negative. Negative reinforcement does not mean beating a dog, but there are times when negative reinforcement is necessary for both the good of the dog and the good of the people involved, especially with high prey or drive dogs where danger IS an issue. I don't hit my dogs, but I've told them no, I've scolded them, and they darn well know when they do wrong, but I also love them more than life itself and constantly praise them and love them up. I know you feel the same about yours.

I really don't see what the big issue is with Cesar, I think he does a lot of good and not every training method suits every dog or situation and I woudl MUCH rather his training methods used on some of those dogs I have seen than to see them put down.

[wolfsoul]

How sad. I want my dogs to enjoy life, enjoy working and enjoy me. Yes, they do things they don't want to because I ask it. But they do it out of respect for me, not fear of me. There is a big difference.
All of us who HAVE been there, done that are telling you guys who have never used both methods that the mostly positive route IS the best route.

I also want my dog to do this -- but she never did when taught with only positive training. While they generally used both positive and negative, she was a messed up dog and they used only positive. Eventually they became frustrated and stopped training her because she wasn't having fun. She does enjoy her training now. There is no reason a dog trained either way can not enjoy their training. It all depends on the dog. Frankly I would rather my dog NOT enjoy training, than to skip out on using negative training for a legitimate reason because there is a slight chance, when nothing else has worked, that it could work.
I HAVE done both, I have been there and done that. I DO use mostly positive. But when it comes to matters such sharpness, I refuse. Just personal preference. I don't think many people here have dealt with it before and frankly I hope they never have to. It is tough to get rid of once it's there and I imagine impossible if you don't want to correct your dog.

[wolfsoul]

Sorry I meant to quote Dr. Goodnow, before I replied, then I ended up deleting it anyway LOL. I was referring to what she had said, not you. I agree with what you've said so far. There is sometimes a need for both positive and negative. Negative reinforcement does not mean beating a dog, but there are times when negative reinforcement is necessary for both the good of the dog and the good of the people involved, especially with high prey or drive dogs where danger IS an issue. I don't hit my dogs, but I've told them no, I've scolded them, and they darn well know when they do wrong, but I also love them more than life itself and constantly praise them and love them up. I know you feel the same about yours.

I really don't see what the big issue is with Cesar, I think he does a lot of good and not every training method suits every dog or situation and I woudl MUCH rather his training methods used on some of those dogs I have seen than to see them put down.
Ah thanks for clearing that up.
I completely agree!

[agilityk9trainer]

I also want my dog to do this -- but she never did when taught with only positive training. While they generally used both positive and negative, she was a messed up dog and they used only positive. Eventually they became frustrated and stopped training her because she wasn't having fun. She does enjoy her training now. There is no reason a dog trained either way can not enjoy their training. It all depends on the dog. Frankly I would rather my dog NOT enjoy training, than to skip out on using negative training for a legitimate reason because there is a slight chance, when nothing else has worked, that it could work.
I HAVE done both, I have been there and done that. I DO use mostly positive. But when it comes to matters such sharpness, I refuse. Just personal preference. I don't think many people here have dealt with it before and frankly I hope they never have to. It is tough to get rid of once it's there and I imagine impossible if you don't want to correct your dog.

I suspect the people who had your dog before were not using the positive methods correctly. This is unfortunately common as people mix and match methods (thanks to folks like Cesar!). Also, I didn't say I NEVER correct my dog. I just said I am mostly positive.

Let me give you an example of the corrections I use. This may help you guys understand things a bit better.

I always start out all positive and add corrections as necessary (I've already stated that, but apparently most of you didn't read my post). Anyway, the corrections I add never cause "baggage." Baggage is when you use a correction that is so adversive, it causes an unwanted and often unexpected behavior in your dog. For example, let's say I want to teach my dog to be quiet. I could grab his muzzle and squeeze firmly every time he barked and yell 'NO!" Would it work? Yes, it would. But, I'd get baggage. The baggage I'd get is a dog who tucks his head whenever I reach to pet it. You see this all the time.

Lets say my dog is chewing. I could go over to him every time, grab his collar, shake it and yell "NO!" Would he quit chewing. Yes, he probably would. But, there would be baggage. Evertime I went to get his collar for control, he would dive away from me.

Collar pops can produce baggage, too, and I've seen it in dog after dog. They shut down and quit working. I've had to rehabilitate these dogs quite often. It's very sad to see them loose their love of working just for a silly collar pop that wasn't necessary to begin with!

I do use correctiions (punishments) but I use them sparingly and I don't use ones that are so adversive as to cause baggage. When training some things, I use no corrections, even mild ones, including even the word "no." The harshest my corrections get is a squirt bottle, and I drop that when the pups are between six and nine months old. Then, I use verbal corrections only. Just a mild "no" is all that is needed.

As for training true working dogs, well, shoot, I'm a professional agility trainer!! Ninety percent of my students' dogs ARE true working dogs! They come from working lines and were bought because of their drive, their intelligence and their dominance! That's what I DO for a living!!

[wolfsoul]

I don't do those things either --- the occasional collar pop when pulling becomes ridiculous but otherwise. I prefer quick verbal corrections. Gets their attention, makes them go back to what they were doing before the behaviour. If the behaviour is aggressive or dangerous I am much less lenient.
Never said you don't train working dogs -- Just said I don't think many of you deal with working sharpness, which is seen more prominently in schutzhund dogs. Not many of the agility trainers I went to understood it or knew how to deal with it. I've seen it alot. I tried to help people deal with it before I fully understood it, and wound up being tore open and bruised and on the ground every time. It's a bit different than just teaching a dog to sit. It's teaching a dog to control it's drive and frustration, two things which come very naturally to the dog, and teaching the dog that no matter what the circumstances are, biting is not okay and consequences come of it.

[anna_66]

I do use correctiions (punishments) but I use them sparingly and I don't use ones that are so adversive as to cause baggage. When training some things, I use no corrections, even mild ones, including even the word "no." The harshest my corrections get is a squirt bottle, and I drop that when the pups are between six and nine months old. Then, I use verbal corrections only. Just a mild "no" is all that is needed.


Isn't this a contradiction?

And as for the pop collar, I've done this with all my dogs and you know what? They all get excited when they are getting them put on. Not one of them have "baggage":)

[agilityk9trainer]

Ahhh.... what's a contradiction? And, I didn't say all dogs develop baggage with collar pops, but some do.

[Canis-Lupess]

The late pet behaviourist John Fisher always passionately opposed any type of punishment in training and he was a trainer of police dogs for many years before becoming a pet behaviourist. He has had massive influence all over the globe and many well known U.S behaviourists follow his methods.

Here is some of what he put in one of his books.

"Even if the methods used are not as harsh as the two examples quoted (throwing downstairs, locking in cupboard), a lot of traditional training methods can still have an adverse effect on the behaviour we are trying to cure. Let's take the dog-aggressive example and look at the most commonly used cure for this within a dog club environment.
The owner is told to get his dog to sit bside him and make sure that the choke chain is high up on the neck, just behind the ears. Other dogs are then paraded in front of this dog and any aggressive reaction in punished with a harsh 'NO' and a firm yank on the chain. The result is usually that the dog is frightened of showing aggression when it is in the dog club and the chain up behind the ears - and it also learns that the presence of another dog is probably a prelude to punishment, so that when any other opportunities present themselves it is a good idea to chase the other dog off. Result: Well controlled in the club, twice as aggressive outside - exactly the opposite of what was intended."

Also this:

" Punishment as a training aid just does not work. However, until fairly recently, this is the way that dogs were traditionally trained. The danger of punishment is that the dog might learn the wrong thing. As has been stated many times so far, dogs learn through reward, and even then the reward has to coincide with the act, or within two seconds of the act, for it to have a learning effect.
Most of the people to whom I talk readily agree with this principle, and this is all very well when it comes to theory. However, human nature is such that we are in fact a very punishment-orientated animal, and when I pose the following theoretical scenario, it proves to most people just how readily we will resort to this form of training.

Suppose you dog was loose in the park and, from a distance of fifty yards, you saw it bark at a mother and her child and then rush in and bite the child. You screamed 'COME HERE, Fido!' and he returned to you emmediately. Would you tell him he was a good boy?

In reality not many people would, they would probably hit the dog. But this would be to teach it that the act before it's last one was not good. It's last act was to obey you recall command and, from a dog's point of view, that is what it is being punished for.
If you made a terrific fuss of the dog for returning, the mother would tell the police that you praised the dog for biting her child.
If you went onto explain to the police that you were praising the dog for coming when called, they would find it pretty hard to accept and so would the judge.
The problem is that humans cannot seperate values from straightforward learning procedures. Dogs and other animals rely on instinct. If, for instance, the dog felt threatened by the mother and child and attacked the weaker of the two as a form of defence, that would be normal (Although unacceptable)
dog behaviour - remember, dogs bite. Returning to the security of its owner when called, only to recieve punishment for returning, would simply make it wary of obeying in future, not teach it that it shouldn't bite children. From this example, it can be seen that instead of looking at what we are really teaching the dog, we are clouding the whole issue with human values and creating confusion. We are usually too ready to punish the dog for what is wrong, instead of concentrating on and rewarding what is right, but does the dog understand what we are trying to teach it at all?
If punishment is used as a first-time training aid and the dog learns the wrong thing, not only do we create confusion, we also create mistrust".

also this:

"Karen Pryor, an American authority on marine-mammal behaviour said: 'Punishment is humanity's favourite method. When the bahaviour goes wrong, we think first of punishment. Scold the child, spank the dog, dock the paycheck, fine the company, torture the dissident, invade the country, and so on'. The problem is that when we find out that the punishment does not stop the behaviour, what do we do? WE ESCALATE THE PUNISHMENT.
To a certain extent, punishment after the act can have a learning affect on humans, but that is because we have the power of logical thought patterns - I am in gaol now for a crime that I committed last year. I do not like being in jail, so I will commit no more crimes. Other animals do not have this ability, therefore punishing unwanted behaviour after the act only confuses them. Sometimes even punishment during the act can have the reverse effect from one we are trying to achieve."

Also, another top pet behaviourist Peter Neville, I'm sure some of you will have heard of him also opposes punishment as a training technique and basically says the same thing about it as what John Fisher does.
These guys are at the forefront of their field so I do think they know what they are talking about.

In the end, all dogs are dogs. All dogs show aggression for the same reasons and they all have the same psychology so I don't think that saying some breeds need punishment because of their drive where others don't. They still learn exactly the same as other dogs, they are just more likely to show the problems that their drive might bring. If somebody has used so-called positive training and not had the result, they weren't doing it right.

Trying to eradicate aggression by using punishment is the most stupid thing anybody could ever do anyway for the reasons that John Fisher and Peter Neville have both stated. Punishment can even create aggression in the form of self-defence where aggression might not even have been an issue to start with.

Anybody who feels the need to "bully", their dog into doing what they want obviously doesn't really understand the true behaviour of dogs. There is never going to be a trusting teamwork relationship present because, if I was a dog, would I trust an owner who routinely smacked me or shouted at me, yanked my collar and lead etc...for reasons that I didn't even understand?

It makes me laugh when people say stuff like: "He/she knows exactly what he/she has done wrong". WRONG!!! How would they know if the dog knew exactly what it had done wrong, can they read the dogs mind? They know that they know what the dog did wrong and that they'd understand if they were punished in this fashion but that doesn't mean to say a dog understands this.

[agilityk9trainer]

Canis-Lupess,

Fantastic post. Thank you.

[DrKym]

Very wel;l said I have been sitting her trying to put my thoughts and how they have changed over the years into perspective.
That post said it all very well.

[lizbud]

Isn't this a contradiction?

And as for the pop collar, I've done this with all my dogs and you know what? They all get excited when they are getting them put on. Not one of them have "baggage":)


You guessed it Anna, it is contradictory, but they can't see it. :p If
redirecting focus of the dog by a word or short tug of the leash at the moment it's needed is "punishment", then we are not communicating in
the same language. Having a calm,happy & centered animal is what we
all strive for & Cesar does it very well.

[Chica]

Cesar millan's show The Dog Wisperer is mainly entertainment. The big picture is that we don't know what goes on behind the camera!!!!!I like his show but I take it as a show. I can't believe every thing I see or hear.

Read this:Critics

There are professional trainers, behavior consultants and behaviourists that state that Millan's methods are inhumane, referring to the use of alpha rolls, flooding, and constant leash "corrections". According to them these techniques can have serious behavioral consequences. While critics agree that Millan does not hit or physically injure the dogs he is working with, they state that subjecting a dog to these techniques is inhumane treatment.

Dr. Nicholas Dodman, the director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at the Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine of Tufts University, has said “Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways.” [13] In a February 23, 2006 New York Times article Dr. Dodman says of Millan’s show "My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years." [14]

Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA Director of Academy for Dog Trainersstates, “Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.” [15]

Dr. Ian Dunbar, Director of the Center for Applied Animal Behavior in Berkeley says "He has nice dog skills, but from a scientific point of view, what he says is, well ... different," says Dunbar. "Heaven forbid if anyone else tries his methods, because a lot of what he does is not without danger." [16]

Dr. Andrew Luescher, Veterinary Behaviorist for the Animal Behavior Clinic at Purdue University says “Millan's techniques are almost exclusively based on two techniques: flooding and positive punishment. In flooding, an animal is exposed to a fear (or aggression) evoking stimulus and prevented from leaving the situation, until it stops reacting. To take a human example: arachnophobia would be treated by locking a person into a closet, releasing hundreds of spiders into that closet, and keeping the door shut until the person stops reacting. The person might be cured by that, but also might be severely disturbed and would have gone through an excessive amount of stress. Flooding has therefore always been considered a risky and cruel method of treatment.” [17]

On September 6, 2006, The American Humane Association issued a press release condemning Millan's tactics as "inhumane, outdated, and improper" and called on The National Geographic Channel to cease airing the program immediately. [18]

On April 28, 2006, Millan's original publicist, Makeda Smith of Jazzmyne Public Relations and her partner, Foster Corder of Daughters 2 Feed Films, filed a lawsuit against Millan requesting compensation for damages in excess of five million dollars for alleged copyright infringement, breach of contract and breach of confidential relationship. The National Geographic Channel, MPH Entertainment, Inc and Emery/Sumner Productions, LLC are also defendants named in the complaint. Smith alleges that Millan has completely forsaken her after several years of utilizing her expertise to introduce and position him within industry, professional, and media circles, nationally and internationally, without any compensation. [20]

On May 5, 2006, a television producer for the TV series 8 Simple Rules filed a lawsuit against Millan, claiming that his labrador retriever had been seriously injured while at Millan's training facility during an exercise routine on a treadmill.[21]. National Geographic released a statement that Millan was not present at the facility at the time of the alleged incident.

[agilityk9trainer]

You guessed it Anna, it is contradictory, but they can't see it. :p If
redirecting focus of the dog by a word or short tug of the leash at the moment it's needed is "punishment", then we are not communicating in
the same language. Having a calm,happy & centered animal is what we
all strive for & Cesar does it very well.

My dear, "positive punishment" is an academic term used to describe "added punishment." And, yes, in academic trems, anything even slightly negative is deemed punishment. I'm sorry you do not care for academic language, but that's what we must use for clarity when we get into such discussions.

BTW, Chica, thanks for pulling those quotes. I had heard several of them but no longer had access to the source.

[Chica]

agilityk9trainer

BTW, Chica, thanks for pulling those quotes. I had heard several of them but no longer had access to the source.
Your welcome