Anti-smacking law in NZ...

[carole]

Well it looks like the anti-smacking bill will pass through parliament very soon, and will be law in NZ within a month, it will be illegal to smack your child,I don't really know all the in's and outs of the law as such, as i really don't see it effecting me a great deal,but all the same , just wondered what you all thought about this, a lot of NZer's are very against this,for obvious reasons,I am in two minds myself, i mean if it really does prevent someone from going on to abuse their child I am all for it, but seriously i cannot see that happening, keep in mind NZ has a very high rate of child abuse, which is not good, so i guess this is a step in the right direction.

your views would be appreciated. :)

[columbine]

Well, I never thought that teaching a child "might makes right" was a good idea. Time out, no dessert, a lecture, no bedtime story... any of that stuff, and STICKING TO IT instead of relenting when the lower lip comes out (and if the child's up to speech, having THEM repeat back why it's happening) is a much stronger connection between wrongdoing and "don't."

Love, Columbine

[Sirrahsim]

I'm assuming that "smacking" is like spanking?? I would NEVER *smack* a child by the common definition (hand across the face), but I am not against spanking in principle. In VERY rare cases when the child is old enough to understand the punishment and all else has failed, a swat across the backside with a bare hand may be called for. I know that I earned a spanking or two in my youth :p :p I'll tell you what, that got my attention REAL fast!!

I should also add that I think using any instrument to apply the spanking is cruel and unusual. There is a big difference between a spank with an open palm and a spank with a paddle or belt. I would NEVER touch my child with a belt or paddle or anything besides an open hand as a form of punishment...

As far as the law goes, it's unfortunate that some people DO get out of control, but it does happen so the law isn't crazy. This is yet another reason that parents should have psych evals before they have kids :D :D

If EVERYONE was trustworthy, we wouldn't need laws against stealing... If ALL parents were responsible, we wouldn't even think of laws against a form of punishment for children.

[moosmom]

I never smacked my kid. Why? I don't believe that children should fear their parents like I feared mine (actually I feared my father, who thought physical violence was the way to teach a child discipline and respect).

Whenever my daughter acted out, she got time. It worked everytime and believe me, to this day, she remembers (she's now 30).

I think there's also an anti-smacking law that just got passed in California .

[Sirrahsim]

I'm so sorry that you had to go through that Donna. There are definately extremes :( In my case my parents were very loving and respectful, even when I did something awful that deserved a spanking. Rather than making me afraid of them, they made sure to show me that they loved me SO much that they were willing to do what it took to get through to me in order to protect me from whatever I was doing. Does that make sense? They didn't spank me when they and I were angry at each other. They spanked me later when I was cool headed enough to understand that they were doing it because they loved me.

[caseysmom]

Donna, that didn't pass here in California as far as I know.

[Puckstop31]

Sigh.... Will we ever learn.... The more power people give government over us, the more enslaved we become. How is it the governments place to tell people how they should raise their children?

Of course, parents should never abuse their child, but I was raised by parents who belived in "spare the rod, spoil the child." I was physically disciplined when I made mistakes and I rarely made the same one twice. I never really feared my parents because of it and today I am VERY grateful to them for raising me that way. It taught me to be responsible for my own actions and if I messed up, there was a price to pay... Just like the real world.

There are no "time outs" in the real world.

Action=Consequence.... For good or bad.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

My mum perfected "the look" which was far more effective than any physical discipline!

[Pembroke_Corgi]

I think a law like that is a good thing, and to me it seems like such legislation is very late in coming. I also feel that schools should be more regulated- I don't know about in New Zealand, but here, in 27 states, teachers may use corporal punishment to discipline children. :eek: While it doesn't happen most of the time, there have been instances that seem severe but the teacher got away with only a slap on the wrist. :(

Adults are much, much larger than children- why should we ever be allowed to use force on them? Anything could happen. Not to mention, violence as a punishment is not as effective as many other methods. Plus, even if you have a well-behaved child, you will probably have an anxious one if you hit your kids. To me "spanking" and "slapping" are the same thing- you are striking a child. It boggles my mind that parents would actually see striking their children as a legitimate way to "punish" their children. :(

[critter crazy]

I grew up in a very "Physical" Household, due to my Step-Father. Therefore, I am completely against smaking my kids. I have in the 7yrs my son has been around, spanked my son once, for a very good reason,a nd I felt just horrible about it, and promissed to never do it again! If a law like this helps, then by all means. There are way too many people out there who just go above and beyond, while punishing children. And unfortunately Social Services can only do so much:rolleyes:

[Cataholic]

Good on NZ! While 'tis true a light hand on the tush can bring a child's attention around quickly, that isn't what we are talking about.

Jones and I have a saying. When he gets outta control, I say, "mom mom's hand wants to say hello to Jonah's hi-hi", and it immediately brings about grins and giggles, and a refreshed attitude, all without contact.

I also look at the times where I **would** be inclined to turn towards corporal punishment. 98% of the time I can look me in the eye (using a mirror) and say, "this is YOUR (my) fault, as he is hungry, tired, too wrung out for the occasion, or <gasp> simply being a toddler". What would spanking a child at this point really say? I hit you because you are hungry and crabby, and past your naptime, so there!

Not the message I want to send. (and, no, my child is not out of control)(usually)

[Argranade]

I don't see anything wrong with smacking a kid in the a** if there not behaving well, if it's in the face or anywhere else then that's very wrong.

I mean some kids will throw fits in stores, throw things all over, scream when they don't get there own way, they'll even hit there own parents in the face sometimes ... if you let your kid get away with all this things as there growing up it will lead to worse things as they get older.

I mean don't go pulling down your kids pants in public lol.

When my little brother pisses me off I wack him in the but, but with his pants on lol, I don't do it hard .. just enough so he feels it, my mom knows I do this and so does she, he can be such a brat sometimes but smacken him seems to work, it's like stop 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... do you want a smack? then he stops lol.

[sparks19]

I can't remember which comedian said it now (I wanna say Bill engvall but I am not positive) he basically said... what is the point of time outs.... you send the child to their room.... their room is filled with toys, games, and likely in these days, a music player, a tv and a gaming system. WOW what a pu nishment. "GO to your game room and think about what you did"

Applied properly a time out might work for a young child. what will you do when that child gets older and maybe gets a little defiant at their time out and refuses to stay in their time out? I can't say I EVER feared my mother because she smacked me on my a$$ when I deserved it. In fact, she is my very best friend and I love her so very much. Spanking alone does not make a child fear you... spanking incorrectly may cause a child to fear you. But like Sirrahsmom said..... you don't do it when you are angry.... that is what leads to people getting out of control. the child wants to do something they are not allowed to do... most of the time they KNOW they are not allowed to do it (if they don't know it's not allowed that is a different story and that is a parental failure not the childs fault of course) but you give them the choice. OK you can do that action but realize that once you do... this is what will occur. they learn to make a choice, they learn responsibility... and if they go through with doing it anyway.... they learn consequence. very important in life :D now I am not saying haul off and just go on a whacking frenzy on a kids butt. but one good slap... perhaps two will do no harm. But you MUST talk to the child about why they must face the consequence of that particular action. Be honest with them.... kids arent stupid. don't speak to them like they are children. Talk to them like adults.

One great example of how talking to kids like they are young adults works is my brother family. They have three kids and another on the way. they are 10, 5 and 4. they are the most wonderfully behaved kids but like all kids they do act up and get out of control. when that happens my sister in law pulls the child aside and does not say "now hunny stop doing that ... goo goo gaa gaa.... baby talk" Even witht he 4 year old... she pulls them aside and flat out tells them that THAT kind of behaviour is not appropriate and it will not be tolerated. Then she lets them return to their playing... if they still cannot behave... then they get the punishment. there is no baby talk in discipline. In fact, there is almost NO baby talk in that household what so ever. she treats them like Human beings... like young adults... and because of that... she has a very happy and sane household. They have VERY smart children because they weren't coddled or babied. Their favourite thing to do as a family (when they can't be out doing things) is to sit at their picture window and watch the bird feeders.... they sit (as a family) with their bird book and everytime a bird lands they look up that bird and read about it. Even the 4 year old now can tell you just about every bird we see when we are out walking. AND they love doing these things. if any family would benefit from homeschooling it is THEM because Lisa is a wonderful mother and teacher. I can only hope we can raise children the way they have.

[king2005]

I'm for & against spankings... I'm ALL for gentle taps on the hand & butt spankings when the child is going wild or doing something that could really harm them & they are ignoring their parents commands.

I can prob count all the times I was spanked & I remember what I did still. Both my parents never used physical punishment unless it was desperetly needed. So when I was spanked I NEVER repeated myself again.. After my spanking (it was 5 good bare hand on bare bottom slaps, hurt like hell, but was worth it!)... I remember when I was playing on the road after my dad told me not to.. I did it anyways & ignored him. I was dragged by the arm off the road, dragged into the house, dragged to my room, plopped over my dads knee & spanked. I was then TOLD to stay on my bed & not to touch anything!! & I had to be quiet (if I cried or yelled, my folks ignored me the whole time, so i learned that got me no where)... After a good hour or 2 (all depended when i stopped yelling for atleast 30 mins) dad would then explain WHY I was spanked & how it made him scared & sad inside, when I was on the road...

I think my folks did a good job in bringing me up... I don't fear my dad at all. Hes the only one I get along with.


New Years (2007) in PEI was funnier then heck. It was 3am & my sister(21yrs old) & I(24yrs old) had been drinking at an irish pub(not overdoing it, just enough to be wide awake & giggly), this was our first time doing something together & not trying to kill each other. We went to leave the house again, & dad said Your not going out, its late!!! We looked at him & both said, excuse me? lol Dad said oh right your adults & live on your own.. Be safe you 2 lol

Thought I'd bring a laugh in here & a good example that if spanked when its really needed is good & can create a healthy bond lol :D

[carole]

Well i found all your replies very interesting, it appears in general most of you agree with this new law, keep in mind those against it, that NZ has a very high rate of child abuse, i am ashamed to say so, but it is the truth,so the surveys say anyhow, i guess per capita of population etc.

I grew up being spanked,smacked, and i have smacked my children on the rare occasion, however i am not for smacking children at all, i guess i have learned from the errors of my way's,I guess what people are upset about is that the government as puckstop put it are telling us how to raise our children, and i can see that point, and that parents are going to be turned into criminals, that really should not be.

For example if you are seen giving your child just a quick smack, if someone reports you, the police will have to act and arrest you, for those people who do smack their children, it is going to be hard to all of sudden stop, don't you think?

Someone said if your child was about to run infront of a car , it was still ok to give them a quick smack, but if they had already done the deed it was not, now that is confusing, and surely needs to be made clearer.,I can forsee some real major problems with this law.

However i do see it as a positive thing in the long run, we will have a new generation growing up that won't ever smack their children,(but i guess some people in the privacy of their homes still will)I don't think it will stop potential child abuser's though, as they will break the law no matter what,if you are that way inclined a law ain't gonna stop you, don't you think?,so i am wondering if the law will achieve the purpose it is intended really.

Their was a grey area in our law, which needed to be changed, it was ok to reasonable force to discipline your child,because of that a woman who used a whip on her child walked out of court scott free,now that is not right, that cannot happen anymore, and I think a change was needed, you could not assault an adult, but yet you could do that to a child.

I am of the opinion that it will be a good move for NZ, and sadly not all parents are responsible,caring etc, that is why puckstop we have to make these type of laws,to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

I just wanted to add, I think most time spankings are done out of sheer fustration, and when one is angry,honestly having found time out and other forms of discipling your child,much better , not only for the child but the parent as well, whenever i did smack my child, which was not very often, i felt really bad, the old saying this will hurt me more than you, really did apply, and believe me it is all learned behaviour,so if we can teach this generation not to smack, it will just be passed on as a normal behaviour and way in which to discipline our children,that can only be for the good IMO.

[king2005]

a whip!!!!!!!!!! are you kidding me?!?! holy hell those poor kids! There is such a huge difference from a quick tap on the bottom & a freaken whip!!!

I was dragged in an adult store with the guys... Chad called me so I'd turn around, & he gently hit me with a little whip on the side of my face... My goodness that little thing hurt like heck!! The pain those kids must go through if whipped hard in punishment :(

How could a parent do that?!?!?!?! :(

[carole]

Yep it was on the telly last night, what really gobsmacked me it was considered reasonable force to discipline a child with and she walked away from that court a free woman, how wrong is that, if you did that to an adult , you would be up for assault, so you can see why the law needed an overhaul can't you?she is not an isolated case either,alot of islander people in our country, from Tonga and Samoa, really believe in corporal punishment, it is their culture, they will be finding this new law very hard to abide by.

To my knowledge corporal punishment has not been allowed in our schools for sometime now,of course it could not be able to continue under this new law anyhow, i remember getting the strap as a child at school for talking in class too much, man i was so humilated, it was done in front of everyone, and by my favourite teacher too, that hurt even worse than the strap itself.

[king2005]

Carole, thats so horrible, I'm having a really hard time processing it, as to me its so barbaric (sp). Its one of those things you see in movies & don't think about it happening in real life. :(

If the country is that bad, then I totally agree with this new law, as the madness has to stop!


BUT I will say this. Outside of Canada & the USA (we're closely tied) I will NOT vote one way or the other... i will give my opinion only, heres my reason why.

Who am I to say what other countries should or shouldn't do? I believe in old cultures & if their people want to live there & continue life as is, then leave them alone.. Sure they might do sick things in my opinion, but thats their culture & should be left as is, unless their people cry out for help.. THEN & only then, would I ever consider stepping in.

I hope that made sence.

[sparks19]

Well if the abuse in the country is that bad then something should be done.... but like you said.... passing an anti smacking law is not going to stop the child abusers. there is a big difference between a smack on the butt and abuse IMO. It's just going to stop parents who give the occassional smack for very wrong doings from disciplining their children OR have them arrested when they really don't deserve that. chances are most of the child abusers aren't out in public beating the snot out of their children. that is the major problem I see with this law. it's not going to stop anything except for those who use the smack responsibly. IMO. I say they give Abusers harsher punishments. Guaranteed jail time. I know around here child services basically has to witness the child abuse before anythign is actually done about it and sometimes even when they do they recommend counselling and other crap. PUT THE ABUSERS IN JAIL ... period. and I think abusers (when caught and sent to jail) should be sterilized :D no more kids for them.

[Suki Wingy]

Well, seeing as we are trying to teach my 3 year old brother NOT to hit/kick/bite, if we smacked him that wouldn't get anywhere! I think that sice there is a high abuse rate a no smacking rule is a step in the right direction.

[carole]

I am sorry I think i have given you all the wrong impression about my country,this is not an isolated case, however it is not a daily occurence either,I imagine child abuse is much the same in the USA,child abuse takes on all forms, from neglect to physical punishment,I do believe however for the size of our population which is four million people, it is far too high, and something needs to be done about it, NZ is a multi-cultural society,there are some cultures who accept corporal punishment as the normal,like alot of the islanders who have emigrated here.

I do think some parents will be treated as criminals,those who believe in a quick smack for wrong doing, and that will be a mistake,the real child abusers will continue despite such a law,they are beyond the law,no law will stop them ,that is for sure.

I am a little worried as to the right of a parent to raise their child as they see fit being taken away from them,I mean what is next ?

[columbine]

In the USA, the emphasis is on liberty. YOUR kids and YOUR wife are YOURS to do with as you see fit. Anybody who tries to interfere with that is a commu - sorry, terrorist (begging your pardon, I'm kinda old).

Of course, if your boyfriend begs to be collared, leashed, and whacked with a rolled-up newspaper, and you're dumb enough to accede, and you get caught, well, it's prison for you, you perv.

Moral of the story: 1) Don't have kids. 2) Don't get married. 3) Don't date.

Love, Columbine (batting 1000 so far!)

[Karen]

In the USA, the emphasis is on liberty. YOUR kids and YOUR wife are YOURS to do with as you see fit.

That is NOT true. Abuse is criminal, here, as it should be. Often, though, an abused person will refuse to press charges, and that makes it difficult to enforce the law, when abuse occurs inside the home and no one talks about it. But a teacher can intervene if they suspect abuse, and Social Service agencies can investigate, etc.



Anybody who tries to interfere with that is a commu - sorry, terrorist (begging your pardon, I'm kinda old).

Of course, if your boyfriend begs to be collared, leashed, and whacked with a rolled-up newspaper, and you're dumb enough to accede, and you get caught, well, it's prison for you, you perv.

Again, not true, unless he agrees to press charges.



Moral of the story: 1) Don't have kids. 2) Don't get married. 3) Don't date.

Love, Columbine (batting 1000 so far!)

[columbine]

That is NOT true. Abuse is criminal, here, as it should be.Legally - yes! Culturally - no. as you said:
Often, though, an abused person will refuse to press charges, and that makes it difficult to enforce the law, when abuse occurs inside the home and no one talks about it. But a teacher can intervene if they suspect abuse, and Social Service agencies can investigate, etc. And Heaven help them. One obfuscatory presence in the law enforcement hierarchy can scuttle the whole thing.
Again, not true, unless he agrees to press charges.Or it violates "prevailing community standards" and some busybody who dislikes you for some unrelated reason decides to infiltrate the event at which you pursue these diversions.

Culture and law are two very different things, and culture often wins out.

[sparks19]

First of all, apparently I am VERY fortunate to have a husband that doesn't see me as his to do as he sees fit. LOL he knows better and he would never do anything to me just out of love and respect if nothing else.

BUT.... it is not just men that abuse. I have heard of plenty of men that suffer spousal abuse from their wives.... but like Karen said.... it often goes unreported.

I can't say that I ever got a feeling that culturally in the US owning your spouse and child is the norm. Especially being the cultural melting pot that we are. I wouldn't say that I own my child... but under the age of 18 I AM responsible for them AND I can face consequences for their mistakes if they are underage. So while that doesn't mean I own them.... I am required to be a parent and provide them with the nessecities of life and can be held liable if they make illegal choices.

[Catlady711]

Sigh.... Will we ever learn.... The more power people give government over us, the more enslaved we become. How is it the governments place to tell people how they should raise their children?

Of course, parents should never abuse their child, but I was raised by parents who belived in "spare the rod, spoil the child." I was physically disciplined when I made mistakes and I rarely made the same one twice. I never really feared my parents because of it and today I am VERY grateful to them for raising me that way. It taught me to be responsible for my own actions and if I messed up, there was a price to pay... Just like the real world.

There are no "time outs" in the real world.

Action=Consequence.... For good or bad.

I agree. My mom raised me with spankings, sometimes including occasional spanking with paint stirrers and wooden spoons, on the hiney only, and the occasional washing my mouth out with soap for mouthing off (btw coast tasts awful!). I never had any marks on me, the soap never made me sick, the pain was temporary but the lessons were permenant, when mom says no, mom MEANS no!

I do not call that child abuse, and I was the one being spanked at the time, but I learned that when someone in authority says something you'd darn well better listen! Mom always let me know she loved me and that she spanked me because I needed to learn what she was trying to teach me for my own good and safety. And many of our relatives and mom's friends commented on how well behaved I was and how well I listened to her in comparison to their own children who they didn't spank.

I wouldn't trade how I was raised for a million years for 'time-outs'. I often now thank my mom for raising me the way she did! And we have been really close even when I was little.

And Puckstop- your comment about the government reminds me of something I once heard....."a government big & powerful enough to give you everything you want, is big & powerful enough to take away everything you have".

[carole]

Catlady i was basically raised similar to you, although i never experienced the soap in the mouth treatment or anything other than a hand,there is a fine line between what we call discipline and child abuse I believe, i still think we can raise our children to be adults without the use of physical punishment, there are other means and ways that are just as effective ,but IMO more dignified, this comes from a parent who has indeed used both methods, i can tell you from experience i much prefer using time out, loss of priviliges etc to spanking any day, IMO spanking never really achieved much except making me feel bad about myself,i think my son learn't far better when i started using alternative methods,now that is just from my own personal experience and valuation.

I am uncertain as to whether teaching a child it is ok for us to hit them when they do wrong, is indeed healthy.

The only thing i remember about being spanked was the humiliation i felt,and of course it did hurt a little, but not near as much as my feelings did, I cannot see that does anyone good really,and people spank for different reasons,some people think it is fine to give a quick sharp smack if your child is in danger, like going to put their hands on the oven ring for example, but would not a sharp NO and taking their hand away learn them just as well, if not more,communication surely is a better, and more effective measure,if the child is too young too understand NO, will it understand your meaning behind your smacking either,anyhow just my thoughts on the subject today.

[lizbud]

IMO. I say they give Abusers harsher punishments. Guaranteed jail time. I know around here child services basically has to witness the child abuse before anythign is actually done about it and sometimes even when they do they recommend counselling and other crap. PUT THE ABUSERS IN JAIL ... period. and I think abusers (when caught and sent to jail) should be sterilized :D no more kids for them.


I think this Prosecuter & Judge in this recent case, heard you. This jerk
recieved 40 yrs in prison for abuse to his 2 yr old step daughter.Her injuries
revealed beatings over a period of time. :(

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/11258997/detail.html

[sparks19]

I think this Prosecuter & Judge in this recent case, heard you. This jerk
recieved 40 yrs in prison for abuse to his 2 yr old step daughter.Her injuries
revealed beatings over a period of time. :(

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/11258997/detail.html


Well I have been known to be ... Loud lol.

that is terrible. I feel so bad for these kids... especially a little two year old.... and it has been going on over a period of time?! My goodness the child must have been an infant when it started. it's sickening to me and I am glad they are giving out serious penalties for this kind of thing. There is no excuse.

[columbine]

some people think it is fine to give a quick sharp smack if your child is in danger, like going to put their hands on the oven ring for example, but would not a sharp NO and taking their hand away learn them just as well, if not more,communication surely is a better, and more effective measure,if the child is too young too understand NO, will it understand your meaning behind your smacking either,anyhow just my thoughts on the subject today.If it's a household where yelling isn't commonplace, a child's first reaction to any sudden shout is to FREEZE (and possibly give a wail of their own!) But if there's shouting going on all the time, one more shout isn't going to get their attention at all. And shouting isn't just caused by anger - it's caused by people trying to shout from room to room instead of rounding the corner to ask a question or sending someone downstairs to announce wash-your-hands-for-dinner, yelling over a too-loud TV or stereo, or shouting so a hard-of-hearing family member can hear. But if it's possible to minimize houshold shouting outside of circumstances of danger, "NO!" "STOP!" and "DROP IT!" are amazingly effective!

And this, explained to a spouse as a practical strategy, can help reduce noise-related headaches all around too. ;)

Love, Columbine (when all else fails, make sure to take your B vitamins!)