A woman President

[Marigold2]

Did anyone see Hilary Rodham Clinton speak the other day? I was greatly impressed with her. She is very Pro-Choice, Pro-Woman and Pro- Gay-Lesbian. She wants woman to get equal pay for equal work. I think it is about time we have an intelligent, strong and capable leader. I hope to see her as our first woman President. It is time we woman leave our second class status behind and come into the fore front of this world. We have the intelligence, now we need the right leader to help us realize our dreams and our strength.

[DrKym]

I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think that '08 is the year we will get it :(

[Grace]

We could have a woman president right now if only George and Dick would leave. Nancy Pelosi is 2nd in line . . . . . . .

[sparks19]

I can honestly say that I don't think I have ever felt like a second class citizen because I am a woman. I have never been mistreated because of it.

[critter crazy]

I am all for a woman President, but Hillary will not get a vote from me. Sorry, But I cannot stand her! Maybe it is because I live in New York, and have seen what she has done, or better yet, what she hasnt!

[Catlady711]

I don't normally get into political stuff, but since this is in the dog house anyway and was soliciting opinions...lol

I don't watch political speeches/propaganda. I firmly believe most politicians will just tell people what they want to hear and cater to the activist groups with the most money/power anyways. Any person elected into office that does really and truely want to make a difference (assuming they aren't lying about it) has so much red tape and swimming against the tide to do, I don't know how much impact they could possibly have anyways, and if they did the next elected official might just repeal all the hard work anyways.

As a fundamental Christian I could never support any canidate that supports pro-choice or pro-gay/lesbian.

As far as a woman president goes, I think that would be neat for a change, however I only see a president as a figure-head for the most part anyways, with little power to do much on their own because of the checks and balances in our system.

However it's just my opinion, since I will NOT vote for any president until they eliminate the electoral college which is outdated and no longer necessary.

[Marigold2]

White woman are getting 70 cents for every dollar a man makes.

Black woman are making 65 cents I believe for every dollar.

Latino woman are making 51 cents for every dollar a man makes.

So many American woman are heading up households due to divorce, being a widow or just a single mom. It's time we are paid the same money for the same job. NO MAN will fight for that, it needs a woman.

[critter crazy]

White woman are getting 70 cents for every dollar a man makes.

Black woman are making 65 cents I believe for every dollar.

Latino woman are making 51 cents for every dollar a man makes.

So many American woman are heading up households due to divorce, being a widow or just a single mom. It's time we are paid the same money for the same job. NO MAN will fight for that, it needs a woman. I would love to see where you got that info. I find that very hard to believe! I am a woman, and have always been paid the same as any man working beside me!

[Marigold2]

Those are the numbers that Hilary quoted on live TV.

[critter crazy]

Those are the numbers that Hilary quoted on live TV.well that explains that!:rolleyes:

[Marigold2]

I can tell you don't like her one bit. She is however intelligent, a hard worker, has dedicated her life to public service, her daughter turned out ok and she and her husbend are on good terms. Bill was such a great speaker, had such sex appeal as did R. Reagan and JFK. I think that anyone standing next to Bill will look dull both in appeal and intelligence. However when she stands on her own, I hear over and over from people like Barbar WAWA what a warm, funny and likable person she is. I think no matter how good you are you can be overshadowed by another. No matter how good, kind and smart you are, standing next to say someone like Catherine Zeta-Jones most woman would look very dull and not so pretty.

[caseysmom]

I honestly haven't followed her or kept up on her stands on the issues. However I would love to see a woman president and I firmly believe that abortion and Gay marriage should not be political issues.

[Karen]

I am always ready for a change, but wouldn't vote for anyone just because of her gender.

[critter crazy]

I am always ready for a change, but wouldn't vote for anyone just because of her gender.
Very well said!

[caseysmom]

Very well said!

I agree with both of you.

[Lady's Human]

What does "sex appeal" Have to do with a presidential candidate?

As to the wage stats, we've been through that argument before. You can twist the numbers any way you want, without knowing where the statistics came from they are meaningless. However, Hard data suggests that there are reasons other than the sex of the worker for the apparent wage disparity.

Eliminate the Electoral College? Great. Doing that would enable a candidate to campaign in CA, FLA, TX, and NY and ignore the rest of the country. The electoral college was set up in part to ensure that smaller states had a voice, and that is still needed.

[caseysmom]

What does "sex appeal" Have to do with a presidential candidate?

As to the wage stats, we've been through that argument before. You can twist the numbers any way you want, without knowing where the statistics came from they are meaningless. However, Hard data suggests that there are reasons other than the sex of the worker for the apparent wage disparity.

Eliminate the Electoral College? Great. Doing that would enable a candidate to campaign in CA, FLA, TX, and NY and ignore the rest of the country. The electoral college was set up in part to ensure that smaller states had a voice, and that is still needed.

So all that means that Hillary has your vote :D

[Sophist]

I would be more than happy to welcome the right woman as president, but I hope to God that woman is not Hilary. I cannot respect her.


As far as thinking this will magically fix your perception of yourself as a second-class citizen... well, if Golda Meir, Margaret Thatcher, Queen Elizabeth, (not to mention great female non-presidential but still high-ranking U.S. leaders like Sandra Day O'Connor) and others have not done that for you, then maybe the problem doesn't lie within the gender of the holder of a single political office.

[critter crazy]

What does "sex appeal" Have to do with a presidential candidate?

As to the wage stats, we've been through that argument before. You can twist the numbers any way you want, without knowing where the statistics came from they are meaningless. However, Hard data suggests that there are reasons other than the sex of the worker for the apparent wage disparity.

Eliminate the Electoral College? Great. Doing that would enable a candidate to campaign in CA, FLA, TX, and NY and ignore the rest of the country. The electoral college was set up in part to ensure that smaller states had a voice, and that is still needed.
Here here!! Yeah..What he said!!;)

[DrKym]

LH campaigning in Fla. wouldn't matter we have all learned they can't count ;)

[critter crazy]

LH campaigning in Fla. wouldn't matter we have all learned they can't count ;)
ha ha ha haha ha!!! LMBO!!!:D

[Marigold2]

I myself have never felt like a second class citizen but many woman do and they are paid less. I would not vote for Hilary because she is a woman, I will vote for her because right now I think she can do the best job. Her being a woman just means that woman's issues are closer to her heart then they would be to most men. One of the reasons she has my vote is because she is pro-choice and because I feel she will help and gay and lesbian communtiy. I would also like to see more money used for things such as woman's health issues, child care, education, retirement. In many of these cases especially woman's health I believe a woman will do more for us. And even though we don't want to admit it, looks do matter to us in voting for a president and for that matter for someone getting a job. They just had these shows on TV where fat people and ugly people applied for a job and were given the brush off, later that same person comes back without the ugly makeup and fat suit and gets the job. We are visual creatures by nature. Part of Bill Clinton and JFK's appeal was sex appeal. If Hilary looked like Selma Hayak I am sure more men would vote for her and maybe even more woman.

[Pam]

I would be more than happy to welcome the right woman as president, but I hope to God that woman is not Hilary.

Agreed! :eek: :eek:

[critter crazy]

I myself have never felt like a second class citizen but many woman do and they are paid less. I would not vote for Hilary because she is a woman, I will vote for her because right now I think she can do the best job. Her being a woman just means that woman's issues are closer to her heart then they would be to most men. One of the reasons she has my vote is because she is pro-choice and because I feel she will help and gay and lesbian communtiy. I would also like to see more money used for things such as woman's health issues, child care, education, retirement. In many of these cases especially woman's health I believe a woman will do more for us. And even though we don't want to admit it, looks do matter to us in voting for a president and for that matter for someone getting a job. They just had these shows on TV where fat people and ugly people applied for a job and were given the brush off, later that same person comes back without the ugly makeup and fat suit and gets the job. We are visual creatures by nature. Part of Bill Clinton and JFK's appeal was sex appeal. If Hilary looked like Selma Hayak I am sure more men would vote for her and maybe even more woman.
RuPaul is more woman than hillary clinton! SHe might say all of this rap, but she realy dosent care! She is just trying to sucker The "female" population in! And as far as Bill and JFK, i dont think sex appeal had anything to do with it. I know I could give two craps what the next president looks like, or any of them for that matter! I honestly dont think anyone realy cares. and I hope to god, that is not what people are looking for!

[Lady's Human]

Senator Clinton scares me. If she's in the south, she has a southern drawl. In the north? Change the accent. Speaking to war protesters? She's against the war, and her vote was a mistake. Speaking to a pro-military audience? Message shifts again.

So far in this pathetically early start to the campaign season, I have heard nothing but sound bites and bumper sticker politics from any of the candidates. No concrete solutions from anyone. Much about how wrong everything is, but no solutions. A long time ago, while in a counseling session, my platoon Sgt told me "Look, Pvt, If you're going to complain, fine, If you want me to DO something about it, help me out. Offer me a solution. " I haven't heard solution one from anyone.

[DrKym]

AK-47s anyone?

I already called the grassy knoll :p

[Marigold2]

Well may the best man or woman win. It's a long way off. I like Hilary, I will vote for her. You guys can vote for whomever you choice. Thats the beauty of this country. Lock and load. I have got my green water pistol ready.

[caseysmom]

I am already safely hiding in a dugout.

[critter crazy]

I call the Clock tower!!!!:p

[Marigold2]

Oh I have a good record for water balloon fights too. :p

[DrKym]

I actually do not mind Hillary I think she did a decent job running the country once before.

However I am not overly impressed with any of our choices, this time out. It is rather early in the race , and who knows maybe Ross Perot will surface again, if not there is always Mario.

[critter crazy]

Oh I have a good record for water balloon fights too. :p
way too dangerous here, they would be Ice balloons, before they hit! I got tons of snowballs!:p

[Lady's Human]

So far in the campaign?

I'm voting for Bill.

And his running mate from the '80s

Opus.

[Marigold2]

You guys are the greatest. Thanks for a fun evening. Good night all.

[trayi52]

Gee, I hope there is more to choose from, if not, I'll vote for Mario!

Willie :)

[Edwina's Secretary]

What does "sex appeal" Have to do with a presidential candidate?

As to the wage stats, we've been through that argument before. You can twist the numbers any way you want, without knowing where the statistics came from they are meaningless. However, Hard data suggests that there are reasons other than the sex of the worker for the apparent wage disparity.

Eliminate the Electoral College? Great. Doing that would enable a candidate to campaign in CA, FLA, TX, and NY and ignore the rest of the country. The electoral college was set up in part to ensure that smaller states had a voice, and that is still needed.

This is one of my favorites...we send our sons and daughters to DIE for democracy in some foriegn country in some desert far away...but it is NOT good enough for the good old...USA! Bah humbug! Move to a big state if you have a problem...! Whine whine whine.... or democracy!

[Lady's Human]

Sara, We don't have a Democracy.

We have a representative republic.

I'd prefer to keep it that way.

[wombat2u2004]

Who's Hilary ???
Is this the same woman who promised so much to Arkansas because hubby was president and from there, and then later went to New York and conveniently forgot what she had promised ????
That one ??? Ahhhhhhhhhhhh.....I wouldn't vote for her.....she's already been branded a liar in the bible belt.
Wombat

[wombat2u2004]

Sign Up... This has been completely around the U.S. Please don't break the chain.

The Democratic National Committee is currently polling Americans through the Internet to determine the electability of Hillary Clinton for the presidency of the United States in 2008.

If you would like to show your support for Hillary and encourage her running for President of the United States in 2008 please add your name to the list below and send it on.

1. Marigold
2.

[Freedom]

I am a woman, and have always been paid the same as any man working beside me!

Wow! I am thinking you have been extremely fortunate! Good for you!

[Puckstop31]

Got this in an email from a buddy of mine. I would've laughed harder if this stuff wasn't true and documented.

"Where is the G-damn f**king flag? I want the G-damn f**king flag up every f**king morning at f**king sunrise."
(From the book "Inside The White House" by Ronald Kessler, p. 244 - Hillary to the staff at the Arkansas Governor's mansion on Labor Day, 1991)

"You sold out, you mother f**ker! You sold out!" From the book "Inside" by Joseph Califano, p. 213 - Hillary yelling at Democrat lawyer.

"It's been said, and I think it's accurate, that my husband was obsessed by terrorism in general and al-qaida in particular."
(Hillary telling a post-9/11 world what a 'great' commander in chief her husband was; Dateline, NBC 4/16/2004.)

"I have to admit that a good deal of what my husband and I have learned [about Islam] has come from our daughter."
(TruthInMedia.org 8/8/1999 - Hillary at a White House function, proudly tells some Muslim groups she is gaining a greater appreciation of Islam because Chelsea was then taking a class on the "religion of peace")

"F**k off! It's enough that I have to see you shit-kickers every day, I'm not going to talk to you too!! Just do your G*damn job and keep your mouth shut."
(From the book "American Evita" by Christopher Anderson, p. 90 - Hillary to her State Trooper bodyguards after one of them greeted her with "Good morning."

"You f**king idiot."
(From the book "Crossfire" p. 84 - Hillary to a State Trooper who was driving her to an event.)

"If you want to remain on this detail, get your f**king ass over here and grab those bags!"
(From the book "The First Partner" p. 259 - Hillary to a Secret Service Agent who was reluctant to carry her luggage because he wanted to keep his hands free in case of an incident.)

"Get f**ked! Get the f**k out of my way!!! Get out of my face!!!"
(From the book "Hillary's Scheme" p. 89 - Hillary's various comments to her Secret Service detail agents.)

"Stay the f**k back, stay the f**k away from me! Don't come within ten yards of me, or else! Just f**king do as I say, Okay!!!?"
(From the book "Unlimited Access", by Clinton FBI Agent in Charge, Gary Aldrige, p. 139 - Hillary screaming at her Secret Service detail.)

"Many of you are well enough off that [President Bush's] tax cuts may have helped you. We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to have to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."
(Hillary grandstanding at a fund raising speech in San Francisco; SFGate.com 6/28/2004.)

"Why do I have to keep proving to people that I am not a liar?!"
(From the book "The Survivor," by John Harris, p. 382 - Hillary in her 2000 Senate campaign)

"Where's the miserable c*ck sucker?"
(From the book "The Truth About Hillary" by Edward Klein, p. 5 - Hillary shouting at a Secret Service officer)

"No matter what you think about the Iraq war, there is one thing we can all agree on for the next days - we have to salute the courage and bravery of those who are risking their lives to vote and those brave Iraqi and American soldiers fighting to protect their right to vote.
(Was posted on Hillary Clinton's senate.gov web site on 1/28/05)

"Put this on the ground! I left my sunglasses in the limo. I need those sunglasses. We need to go back!"
(From the book "Dereliction of Duty" p. 71-72 - ;Hillary to Marine One helicopter pilot to turn back while en route to Air Force One.)

"A right-wing network was after his presidency...including perverting the Constitution."
(To Barbara Walters about the Republicans who impeached her husband; 20/20, ABC 6/8/2003.)

"Son of a bitch."
(From the book "American Evita" by Christopher Anderson, p. 259 - Hillary's opinion of President George W. Bush when she found out he secretly visited Iraq just days before her highly publicized trip to Iraq)

"What are you doing inviting these people into my home? These people are our enemies! They are trying to destroy us!"
(From the book "The Survivor" by John Harris, p.99 - Hillary screaming to an aide, when she found out that some Republicans had been invited to the Clinton White House)

"I mean, you've got a conservative and right-wing press presence with really nothing on the other end of the political spectrum."
(C-Span, 1/19/1997 - Hillary complains about the mainstream media, which are all conservatives in her opinion)

"Come on Bill, put your dick up! You can't f**k her here!!"
(From the book "Inside The White House" by Ronald Kessler, p. 243 - Hillary to Gov. Clinton when she spots him talking with an attractive female at an Arkansas political rally)

"You know, I'm going to start thanking the woman who cleans the restroom in the building I work in. I'm going to start thinking of her as a human being" -Hillary Clinton
(From the book "The Case Against Hillary Clinton" by Peggy Noonan, p. 55)

"You show people what you're willing to fight for when you fight your friends."
(From the book "The Agenda" by Bob Woodward, ch. 14)

"We are at a stage in history i n which remolding society is one of the great challenges facing all of us in the West."
(From the book "I've Always Been A Yankee Fan" by Thomas D. Kuiper, p. 119 - During her 1993 commencement address at the University of Texas)

"The only way to make a difference is to acquire power"
(From the book "I've Always Been A Yankee Fan" by Thomas D. Kuiper, p. 68 - Hillary to a friend before starting law school.)

"We just can't trust the American people to make those types of choices.... Government has to make those choices for people"
(From the book "I've Always Been A Yankee Fan" by Thomas D Kuiper, p. 20 - Hillary to Rep. Dennis Hastert in 1993 discussing her expensive, disastrous taxpayer-funded health care plan)

"I am a fan of the social policies that you find in Europe" Hillary in 1996" From the book "I've Always Been A Yankee F an" by Thomas D. Kuiper, p. 76 - Hillary in 1996)



This ill-tempered, violent, foul mouthed, hateful and abusive woman wants to be your president and have total control as commander-in-chief of a military that her party so openly and proudly admit they detest. I can see someone like this gaining the respect of other nations, and especially from their leaders, who refuse to do as she tells them ...or else. No thanks, my country deserves a better leader, not a dominatrix!

You can tell a lot about someone's character by observing how they treat those around them that have no power or leverage over them.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Who's Hilary ???
Is this the same woman who promised so much to Arkansas because hubby was president and from there, and then later went to New York and conveniently forgot what she had promised ????
That one ??? Ahhhhhhhhhhhh.....I wouldn't vote for her.....she's already been branded a liar in the bible belt.
Wombat


Wombat...I am impressed with your knowledge and interest in US politics! Could you tell me WHERE the Bible Belt is, its signficance and what the WIFE of a US president promised to the people of Arkansas?

[Marigold2]

Ok ok you found me out. The only reason I like Hilary is because I am a Yankee fan. :p

[lizbud]

Senator Clinton scares me. If she's in the south, she has a southern drawl. In the north? Change the accent. Speaking to war protesters? She's against the war, and her vote was a mistake. Speaking to a pro-military audience? Message shifts again.

So far in this pathetically early start to the campaign season, I have heard nothing but sound bites and bumper sticker politics from any of the candidates. No concrete solutions from anyone. Much about how wrong everything is, but no solutions.


In fact, the very same things could be said of almost every one of the
people who have or will run for national office. So what's new?

As for the foul language, she's probably not the expert that Dick Cheney
or a George W Bush is. Big whoop, she can curse like a man, so what?

[Marigold2]

I am going to question some of these statements. I do not believe that a police officer, especially someone in the secert service would ever comment on what was said while they were protecting a person. Any SS officer who did repeat something said would lose his job and would not be able to find any work in law enforcement. SS kept their mouths shut and their eyes open for danger, no one but a fool would risk losing such a job by talking to the media or reporting a private converstion.

You f**king idiot."
(From the book "Crossfire" p. 84 - Hillary to a State Trooper who was driving her to an event.)

"If you want to remain on this detail, get your f**king ass over here and grab those bags!"
(From the book "The First Partner" p. 259 - Hillary to a Secret Service Agent who was reluctant to carry her luggage because he wanted to keep his hands free in case of an incident.)

"Get f**ked! Get the f**k out of my way!!! Get out of my face!!!"
(From the book "Hillary's Scheme" p. 89 - Hillary's various comments to her Secret Service detail agents.)

"Stay the f**k back, stay the f**k away from me! Don't come within ten yards of me, or else! Just f**king do as I say, Okay!!!?"
(From the book "Unlimited Access", by Clinton FBI Agent in Charge, Gary Aldrige, p. 139 - Hillary screaming at her Secret Service detail.)

[Puckstop31]

I am going to question some of these statements. I do not believe that a police officer, especially someone in the secert service would ever comment on what was said while they were protecting a person. Any SS officer who did repeat something said would lose his job and would not be able to find any work in law enforcement. SS kept their mouths shut and their eyes open for danger, no one but a fool would risk losing such a job by talking to the media or reporting a private converstion.

You f**king idiot."
(From the book "Crossfire" p. 84 - Hillary to a State Trooper who was driving her to an event.)

"If you want to remain on this detail, get your f**king ass over here and grab those bags!"
(From the book "The First Partner" p. 259 - Hillary to a Secret Service Agent who was reluctant to carry her luggage because he wanted to keep his hands free in case of an incident.)

"Get f**ked! Get the f**k out of my way!!! Get out of my face!!!"
(From the book "Hillary's Scheme" p. 89 - Hillary's various comments to her Secret Service detail agents.)

"Stay the f**k back, stay the f**k away from me! Don't come within ten yards of me, or else! Just f**king do as I say, Okay!!!?"
(From the book "Unlimited Access", by Clinton FBI Agent in Charge, Gary Aldrige, p. 139 - Hillary screaming at her Secret Service detail.)

Gee... What a shocker...

I am sure we could go back and forth on this, but it would be boring. Do the ostrich routine if you wish. LOL

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Though it is from a variety of reasons, no matter how you slice it, women earn less than men. Here is one example of a source. http://www.mtsu.edu/~berc/tnbiz/women/pdfs/wages.pdf There are many more.

I'm not sure who I want to win the democratic primary of the eligible candidates yet. I would love to see Dennis Kucinich win, I voted for him in the 2004 primary, but as that won't happen I'll have to wait and see. All I'm sure of is that I would almost certainly vote for any democrat before I'd ever vote for a republican.

[critter crazy]

Wow! I am thinking you have been extremely fortunate! Good for you!
Maybe I have been fortunate, and maybe it was because i was in the army. In the Army There is no different pay scale for women, we all get paid the same, based on time in and Rank. As it should be wherever you work. But I have held a few Civilian Jobs, and the pay was still the same for me, as it was for the guy working right next to me.

[Cataholic]

Anyone that holds, "I wouldn't vote for anyone on the basis of their gender", how many of you have voted for someone simply because of their party affilitation? Voting for someone simply on the basis of their gender makes at least as much sense as voting for someone on the basis of their party affiliation.

I do think a woman would work more progressively towards 'woman's issues' than a man. I think a woman can 'get' gender bias more than a man. I **want** a woman president if for no other reason than to see how the other gender does it.

And, LH- you are acting unfair! If you recall, in the driving while under the influence of a car phone thread, I was called to task for tsk tsk'ing stats/surveys/polls....but, now, you imply that stats/surveys/polls can be skewed? WHAT?

LOL, and welcome back!

[Karen]

Anyone that holds, "I wouldn't vote for anyone on the basis of their gender", how many of you have voted for someone simply because of their party affilitation? Voting for someone simply on the basis of their gender makes at least as much sense as voting for someone on the basis of their party affiliation.

I am the one who origionally posted that and I can state categorically that I have never voted for anyone based on their party affiliation.


I do think a woman would work more progressively towards 'woman's issues' than a man. I think a woman can 'get' gender bias more than a man.
Yes, but will she be able to do anything more about it, or is s/he (pick a politician, any politician) just paying it lip service during the campaign to get votes?

Can you tell there are very few politicians I trust?


I **want** a woman president if for no other reason than to see how the other gender does it.

I think four years and the fate of the planet are a little much to risk "just to see" anything.

Just My Humble Opinion ...

[Lady's Human]

Cataholic:

It all depends on where the statistics are coming from whether they can be trusted or not. Methodology, sample size, and other issues come into play whenever you are relying on someone else's statistics to prove or disprove a point., In the case of the Johns Hopkins study I cited in the cell phone discussion, the sample size was large, and they were using raw data from insurance companies' accident records.

In the case of pay, according to the bureau of labor statistics, on average women who are employed full time worked .7 of an hour per day less than their male couterparts. That alone accounts for a pay disparity. In the case of the Bureau of Labor stats, their sample size is huge (the US Workforce) and they are government employees, so they have no axe to grind. They use raw data from US employers, so the data they use has not been skewed by being filtered by another study. (Using data from a study in your statistical study, as is done at times, is a sure way to twist data.)


As far as voting for a party instead of an individual? Let's just say in the last 4 elections I've voted in, very few of the candidates I voted for won. Why? They weren't representatives of either of the major parties. I have a tendency to vote on the conservative side of things, but I don't vote for someone because they are a Republican. I actually look at the candidates and look at their platforms, and email campaigns for more information.

Slick campaigners do nothing for me. They are more likely NOT to get my vote because any time the BS meter goes off the candidate has probably lost my vote. Say what you mean, mean what you say, and just let the chips fall.

[lizbud]

I think four years and the fate of the planet are a little much to risk "just to see" anything.

Just My Humble Opinion ...


Well, we just risked the last 8 years to a complete nincompoop, I seriously
doubt ANY woman could be worse than he was.

In my humble opinion. :)

[Cataholic]

Liz, I agree!

I find it odd that we are willing to put our faith in a male president for four years....essentially, just waiting to see what they do (as they promise), but, when it comes to a woman, there are just too many "unknowns" for most of us to be comfortable.

Ah, sexism. Alive and well!

[Marigold2]

I agree, Bush is the WORST president we have ever had. As for Dennis K. I know think he will not win but but I do believe his heart is in the right place.

Hilary is driven, and anyone with that kind of drive and ambition will want to do a good job, they hate to fail at anything.

It's time for a woman to take the helm. And maybe Billy boy had a problem keeping his pants zipped but he was an excellent president who had the respect of the world. I think he would make a great right hand man for his wife. The two of them together in the white house is in my opinion just what this country needs.

[DrKym]

I agree, Bush is the WORST president we have ever had. As for Dennis K. I know think he will not win but but I do believe his heart is in the right place.

Hilary is driven, and anyone with that kind of drive and ambition will want to do a good job, they hate to fail at anything.

It's time for a woman to take the helm. And maybe Billy boy had a problem keeping his pants zipped but he was an excellent president who had the respect of the world. I think he would make a great right hand man for his wife. The two of them together in the white house is in my opinion just what this country needs.


Like I said SHE didn't do a bad job the first time out as Prez! :D

[Edwina's Secretary]

Lh...both your employers...the Army and USPS are heavily regulated when it comes to pay so...in your universe there is..or at least should be pay equity.

But you are right...figures lie and liars figure. I can find you a very credible survey/study...from an organization that supposedly is unbiased to support pretty much any position you would like to support.

And this is not true....
In the case of the Bureau of Labor stats, their sample size is huge (the US Workforce) if you are suggesting that ALL employers are included. Employers do not have to provide the information to the Bureau...they choose to... So whether it is accurate or not...<<shrug>> it does not come off payroll registers -- it is what the employer chooses to report. I have had the responsibility of this reporting with employers in the past. Sometimes it gets done and sometimes.... It is good information, albeit a little out of date by the time it gets published....but the gospel truth...the whole truth? Not really. And the guys who prepare it....they are government employees in the same manner that USPS employees are government employees. It is more a quasi-government group -- sort of a sub-contract gig.

And Lizbud....amen sister! Wouldn't it be nice if whoever the next president is, it be someone who can try and restore some dignity and respect for our nation after these last few abysmal years?

[Lady's Human]

ES,

In the army, pay is absolutely equitable. One pay table, no OT, what ya get is what ya get.

In the PO, however, there is a pay disparity. Why? If you look at the OT volunteer lists in the office I work for, 2/3 of the volunteers are male, in a workforce that is about a 50/50 split between men and women. Therefore, a male in the same position as a female is going to get pay more statistically, as they are more likely to get OT than the equivalent female. In a workplace where anything over 10 hours in a shift is doubletime, a wage disparity can be racked up rapidly.

BTW, I wasn't suggesting that all workers were represented in the BLS figures, I was just using it as an example of a large sample group as opposed to a small sampling.

[Karen]

Liz, I agree!

I find it odd that we are willing to put our faith in a male president for four years....essentially, just waiting to see what they do (as they promise), but, when it comes to a woman, there are just too many "unknowns" for most of us to be comfortable.

Ah, sexism. Alive and well!


Not in my mind, thank you very much. Trust me, I was raised in a very equal opportunity household. I just said I wouldn't vote for someone just because she was a woman. I didn't say I didn't want to change genders in the White House, dagnabbit, what I meant, and mean is that gender has no role in my voting choice.

I don't care if you are male or female, gay, bi or straight, black, white, green or plaid. What matters to me is your platform, ideas, ability, integritry, and worthiness for the task at hand.

[Marigold2]

Hey Karen my favorite color is plaid. :p

[wombat2u2004]

Wombat...I am impressed with your knowledge and interest in US politics! Could you tell me WHERE the Bible Belt is, its signficance and what the WIFE of a US president promised to the people of Arkansas?

You're impressed ??? Thats nice.
Kisses
Wombat

[wombat2u2004]

Hey Karen my favorite color is plaid. :p

:eek: You never told me that before !!!!!
:confused: Wom

[Daisy and Delilah]

Well, we just risked the last 8 years to a complete nincompoop, I seriously
doubt ANY woman could be worse than he was.

In my humble opinion. :)

I couldn't agree more!!! This sums up the entire situation in a nutshell.

Marigold: Good for you, starting this thread. I think you've got something here!! I would vote for Hilary in a heartbeat!! :)

[Sophist]

In fact, the very same things could be said of almost every one of the
people who have or will run for national office. So what's new?



There is a difference between lip service, persuasive speaking, weasel words, and campaign hyperbole, and Hilary.

A far as I have ever been able to discern, the woman doesn't have a genuine, deep-seated, long-term conviction in her entire body. Not one issue she can even begin to convince me she really is passionate and committed to, and not just trying to tell people what they want to hear about it.

You can pick almost any other slimy, flip-flopping, double-speaking, backpeddling politician and find at least one or two points they have stuck to and shown some dedication to.

Hilary?---maybe promotion of herself, or the seeking of glory.

Any doubt about this subject should have been obliterated for the average person when she magically morphed from southern Christian to New York Jew overnight for the sake of an election :rolleyes: .

[Sophist]

Liz, I agree!

I find it odd that we are willing to put our faith in a male president for four years....essentially, just waiting to see what they do (as they promise), but, when it comes to a woman, there are just too many "unknowns" for most of us to be comfortable.

Ah, sexism. Alive and well!


Ah, but we aren't putting our faith in them just to see what a MAN will do. We put our faith in them because of what we hope that individual will do. It was posted that we should vote for a woman just to see what would happen... it is not sexist to insist we will not vote for a candidate just out of curiousity toawrds how their sex organs will affect the office.

The point was clearly made that those of us who disagreed with the statement thought that the individual in question for an office was a much bigger consideration that their plumbing.

[Sophist]

Anyone that holds, "I wouldn't vote for anyone on the basis of their gender", how many of you have voted for someone simply because of their party affilitation?


Not me, not me!

I have never voted straight ticket.

After registering in my chosen political party at 18, the very first vote I ever cast was for a candidate of another party.

I'd say I tend to vote for and with my party maybe 60-70% of the time.

[Marigold2]

I remember a young president some say a great president standing in a foreign city many years ago and saying "Ich bin ine Berlinger"

[Marigold2]

I think this is pet talk at it's best. Here we are calmly and kindly discussing the future of the world. Hey that's pretty cool.

[Sophist]

I remember a young president some say a great president standing in a foreign city many years ago and saying "Ich bin ine Berlinger"


There is a difference between lip-service solidarity clearly meant to show symbolic brotherhood with a troubled people, and fudging residency to qualify for an office, or expecting people to really believe you've secretly always been in your heart a Jew while you were working the Southern Christians as 'your people'.

I mean, Kennedy didn't use that statement to run for German political office, trying to dupe everyone into actually believing he was a good ol' boy from their side of the wall. Hilary did in New York. The saddest part is that she pulled it off.

[wombat2u2004]

I remember a young president some say a great president standing in a foreign city many years ago and saying "Ich bin ine Berlinger"

And that means ? " I have an itch in germany somewhere ???"
Who said that ??? The president of the cooties club ???
Wom

[Daisy and Delilah]

And that means ? " I have an itch in germany somewhere ???"
Who said that ??? The president of the cooties club ???
Wom


Thanks for the belly laugh!!! I love you wombat!!! :D :) :D :) :D

president of the cooties club......ROTFL :D :D :D :D

[Sophist]

I remember a young president some say a great president standing in a foreign city many years ago and saying "Ich bin ine Berlinger"


Just for poos and giggles, here's the clearly non-deceptive quote in a bit of context:

“ Two thousand years ago the proudest boast was civis romanus sum [I am a Roman citizen]. Today, in the world of freedom, the proudest boast is 'Ich bin ein Berliner'...All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Berlin, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words 'Ich bin ein Berliner!' „

That's a bit different than, for example, Hilary becoming a Jew after taking a huge hit in the polls for getting cozy with the Arafats, and having campaign workers and multiple witnesses confirm they'd heard her use ethnic slurs towards a Jewish politician, and a lack of support for Israel.

[Marigold2]

Hi Wom,

That was a young JFK saying in German " I am a Berliner" what he meant is that he can relate to the germans and to all people regardless of where they are from. We all have the same hopes, wishes and dreams. To do well, do love and be loved. To be excepted for who we are. And to have Hilary be our next president.:cool:

[Marigold2]

Hi Sophist,

No need to get your knickers in a twist. If you don't like her that's fine. Don't vote for her. Maybe she was trying to be funny. Remember funny?

[Edwina's Secretary]

That's a bit different than, for example, Hilary becoming a Jew after taking a huge hit in the polls for getting cozy with the Arafats,

Hillary converted???? When was that? And there is more than one Arafat? I thought him dead?

Oy vey.... I am confused. :confused: :confused:

[Sophist]

Hi Sophist,

No need to get your knickers in a twist. If you don't like her that's fine. Don't vote for her. Maybe she was trying to be funny. Remember funny?

I am not at all upset, and wasn't it you who was just saying how beautiful it was, PT at its best, that no one was resorting to insults? Maybe I am recalling incorrectly...


And she was not trying to be funny.

I don't mean this in a mean way, if you can believe that, but how much research have you actually done on Hilary?

[Edwina's Secretary]

ES,

.

In the PO, however, there is a pay disparity. Why? If you look at the OT volunteer lists in the office I work for, 2/3 of the volunteers are male, in a workforce that is about a 50/50 split between men and women. Therefore, a male in the same position as a female is going to get pay more statistically, as they are more likely to get OT than the equivalent female. In a workplace where anything over 10 hours in a shift is doubletime, a wage disparity can be racked up rapidly.



Any decent survey should look at base pay as well as overtime pay. And of course, in exempt jobs, hours worked are not tracked and overtime not paid.

I could get into the political argument of WHY woman are not as able to earn overtime as men....but today I am being non-political.

Just want to make sure you understand the BLS is NOT the Holy Grail of Compensation Surveys nor is cash compensation the whole story.

[Marigold2]

Did I tell you my first name is Monica, really it is? I feel I owe her.

[Sophist]

Hillary converted???? When was that? And there is more than one Arafat? I thought him dead?

Oy vey.... I am confused. :confused: :confused:

When she was running for New York Senate, the same time she suddenly became a long-term New Yorker, she revealed a Jewish heritage she'd suddenly always been proud and mindful of, and actively promoted and portrayed herself as Jewish, particularly to the predominately Jewish communities.

[wombat2u2004]

Hi Wom,

That was a young JFK saying in German " I am a Berliner" what he meant is that he can relate to the germans and to all people regardless of where they are from. We all have the same hopes, wishes and dreams. To do well, do love and be loved. To be excepted for who we are. And to have Hilary be our next president.:cool:

Ahhhhhh....that makes so much sense.....your posts always make a great deal of sense to me.
Marigold.....can I PM you ??? I'd really appreciate that.
Wom

[Edwina's Secretary]

When she was running for New York Senate, the same time she suddenly became a long-term New Yorker, she revealed a Jewish heritage she'd suddenly always been proud and mindful of, and actively promoted and portrayed herself as Jewish, particularly to the predominately Jewish communities.

Oh come on.....I have my problems with Hillary being too willing to bend to the political winds, but she portrayed herself as Jewish? Her religious roots and beliefs are well documented and analyzed. And her residence well-known as well... she grew up in a suburb of Chicago and lived in Arkansas for most of her adult life.

And you are suggesting people in New York didn't know these things so she was telling them otherwise?

I wonder what it is about the Clintons that make their detractors paint them in such dramatic (and unbelievable) negative light? :confused: :confused:

[Marigold2]

Hi Wom,

Yes you may PM me. How nice of you to ask first. A real gentlemen. Monica

[Sophist]

Oh come on.....I have my problems with Hillary being too willing to bend to the political winds, but she portrayed herself as Jewish? Her religious roots and beliefs are well documented and analyzed. And her residence well-known as well... she grew up in a suburb of Chicago and lived in Arkansas for most of her adult life.

And you are suggesting people in New York didn't know these things so she was telling them otherwise?

I wonder what it is about the Clintons that make their detractors paint them in such dramatic (and unbelievable) negative light? :confused: :confused:


How could she be elected to the New York Senate, if she did not manage to portray herself as a New York Resident? That's a basic requirement.

Also, she did suddenly reveal this Jewish grandmother (later, it was discovered it was actually a grandmother briefly married to a Jew) who gave her this rich heritage she was proud of, and still was a big part of her today.

It was all over flippin CNN when she was running for office. Hilary has been playing these games for a long time.

And one last point--- I am not down on 'The Clintons'. I love Bill.

[Edwina's Secretary]

How could she be elected to the New York Senate, if she did not manage to portray herself as a New York Resident? That's a basic requirement.



You state above
she suddenly became a long-term New Yorker


I am a resident of California...but that doesn't mean I represent myself as a long-term Californian!

[Puckstop31]

Here is something else for the pro-Hillary crowd to chew on...

I often hear people say how "brave" she was with the whole Lewinski thing. How is it brave to allow your spouse to cheat on you? It would have been brave of her to stand by Bill as her President. But, if she truely had courage she would NOT have stood by him as her husband. Basically as I see it, she allowed herself to be embarrassed in a very public way, all in the name of politics.

She is fraud. Period. The way she treats those who would take a bullet for her says everything we should need to know about her. That and her obvious elitist and socialist ideals.

She is not as smart as the left thinks she is, nor is she as dumb as the right wants her to be.

[Sophist]

You state above


I am a resident of California...but that doesn't mean I represent myself as a long-term Californian!

Again, I have to ask, have any of the Hilary supporters researched her at all? I implore you to educate yourself on her senatorial campaign. Let her camp and her speeches show you just how false and manipulative this woman is.


It is just like now, when she says she's always been against the war, yet she voted for it!

It is a matter of record, but people either buy the lie, or overlook it.

[Puckstop31]

Again, I have to ask, have any of the Hilary supporters researched her at all? I implore you to educate yourself on her senatorial campaign. Let her camp and her speeches show you just how false and manipulative this woman is.

+1

[Sophist]

She is not as smart as the left thinks she is, nor is she as dumb as the right wants her to be.

Hey, now! I am neither right-wing, nor do I think Hilary is smart! So there :p ! :D ;)

[Edwina's Secretary]

Here is something else for the pro-Hillary crowd to chew on...

I often hear people say how "brave" she was with the whole Lewinski thing. How is it brave to allow your spouse to cheat on you?

Again...I am not pro-Hillary...simply pro-truth....

How brave was Bush when he ran and hide out after 9/11??????

or Cheney....hiding in an "undisclosed location!"

Anyway...who ever called her "brave"...other than you?

Chew away truth seeker!

[Marigold2]

Originally Posted by Sophist
Again, I have to ask, have any of the Hilary supporters researched her at all? I implore you to educate yourself on her senatorial campaign. Let her camp and her speeches show you just how false and manipulative this woman is.

Yes Sophist both my husband and I pay great attention to all the candidates running and to all the debates on TV. You see I am the mother of three. I had two sons in the military. My oldest has served now 10 proud years. Twice he was sent to the Middle East and twice he risked his life for long periods of time. Because of the nature of his job in the military we were not allowed ANY contact for over six months. For a mother that is a lifetime of worry and fear. I feared for him and prayed for him daily. Twice he made this trip and twice I sat home helpless. My younger son was sent to the Middle East once. I care a great deal about all the issues and take nothing for granted. As far as Bill and Hilary's love and sex life I could care less. I just don't want my son to have to go back. I want a world that is safe for all peope, clean water, clean air, food on the table, a steady income, retirement benefits, health care, college for my daughter. At this time I feel Hilary is the best candidate to make that happen. But the election is a ways off and I have a lot of research and thinking to do in that time. I hope that this post I started gets everyone thinking about who would be best for this job. Even though we might not argree on a candidate I think we all agree that we want a safe and happy world and this war to end.

[Sophist]

Originally Posted by Sophist
Again, I have to ask, have any of the Hilary supporters researched her at all? I implore you to educate yourself on her senatorial campaign. Let her camp and her speeches show you just how false and manipulative this woman is.

Yes Sophist both my husband and I pay great attention to all the candidates running and to all the debates on TV. You see I am the mother of three. I had two sons in the military. My oldest has served now 10 proud years. Twice he was sent to the Middle East and twice he risked his life for long periods of time. Because of the nature of his job in the military we were not allowed ANY contact for over six months. For a mother that is a lifetime of worry and fear. I feared for him and prayed for him daily. Twice he made this trip and twice I sat home helpless. My younger son was sent to the Middle East once. I care a great deal about all the issues and take nothing for granted. As far as Bill and Hilary's love and sex life I could care less. I just don't want my son to have to go back. I want a world that is safe for all peope, clean water, clean air, food on the table, a steady income, retirement benefits, health care, college for my daughter. At this time I feel Hilary is the best candidate to make that happen. But the election is a ways off and I have a lot of research and thinking to do in that time. I hope that this post I started gets everyone thinking about who would be best for this job. Even though we might not argree on a candidate I think we all agree that we want a safe and happy world and this war to end.





Really, you can only learn so much from them reading prepared answers from their writers at the debates.

Study their actions, and their less high-profile words and promises. But most of all their actions--- like voting in favor of the war that sent your sons away, like Hilary did. She did not come out as against the war until Obama did so, and surged in the polls enough to frighten her. Now she claims she was always opposed to the war. But her vote is on record... this wonderful peacemonger DID vote for your sons to go to the middle east.

I have waited anxiously for two brothers who were sent to Iraq by Dubya, so I can sympathize somewhat with your position there. But you know what, waiting for a soldier is not the same thing as political awareness. I do not in any way mean that as an insult, and I do not claim to be a political genius. It's just... grr.

It is actually a pretty smart move for you to make, speaking from an objective debate stance. I mean, it is an emotional and volatile enough subject that it isn't really safe to respond to it, even if it really doesn't tie into or refute any of the arguments we've made against Hillary.

Also, you addressed the post to me, so please realize I have not said one word about The Clinton's sex/love life. Not a single word. Too cheap a shot so far, really. If the so-called Hillary haters are as backwards and silly as her fans seem to think, then we can be so on our own without putting such ridiculousness in my mouth for me.

[Puckstop31]

Again...I am not pro-Hillary...simply pro-truth....

How brave was Bush when he ran and hide out after 9/11??????

or Cheney....hiding in an "undisclosed location!"

Anyway...who ever called her "brave"...other than you?

Chew away truth seeker!

You think Bush and Cheney were "running and hiding" in the hours directly after the attacks? Puh-Lease. They were hidden, safe and in control. Just like protocol dictates when such an event occurs.

Who called her brave? Who DIDN'T? There were just so many soundbites I heard and so many articles I read just gushing praise on her for being so brave.

So, perhaps you might address the question now? I doubt it though, that is just not your style.

[Puckstop31]

....I just don't want my son to have to go back....

Ya know what? I do not want my children to have to fight this enemy either. But if we don not defeat then now, they will. Running away without victory will doom us to another generation having to fight them. Call it a curse, but I have seen this enemy face to face. I have been in the same room as some of them before. I understand what motivates them. Reasons why we are there beside (it is totally irrelevant now) we MUST win and not let the politicians turn this into another Vietnam, all in the name of gaining power.

Sure, Hank might make YOUR Son safe, but she would make your grandchildren have to fight.


I want a world that is safe for all peope, clean water, clean air, food on the table, a steady income, retirement benefits, health care, college for my daughter.....

A world safe for all people? What exactly does this mean? But other than that... You don't have those things now? Who do you think should provide all the things you listed? The Government? Do you really think our Government should be responsible for those things?

[wombat2u2004]

Ya know what? I do not want my children to have to fight this enemy either. But if we don not defeat then now, they will. Running away without victory will doom us to another generation having to fight them. Call it a curse, but I have seen this enemy face to face. I have been in the same room as some of them before. I understand what motivates them. Reasons why we are there beside (it is totally irrelevant now) we MUST win and not let the politicians turn this into another Vietnam, all in the name of gaining power.

Sure, Hank might make YOUR Son safe, but she would make your grandchildren have to fight.



A world safe for all people? What exactly does this mean? But other than that... You don't have those things now? Who do you think should provide all the things you listed? The Government? Do you really think our Government should be responsible for those things?

You shouldn't be having a go at Monica old mate. I think you will find that this proud mother of a veteran would agree with every word that you say.
I am also a veteran, and I believe that another loss because of politicians would be fatal to the western world.
As for provision of these things she asks for by the government, no, I think that is NOT what she meant. Marigold is quite aware of what it costs to be free, and probably more of a patriot than I have met in quite a while. I believe that she is aware of the lies and deceit put across to the public by prospective presidential candidates. So who is one to choose???
They are all after the power, the job, the bucks, the perks that go with it.
I suppose the best anyone can hope for is their own personal choice.
k ???
Wombat

[Puckstop31]

You shouldn't be having a go at Monica old mate.

My comments are not a stab at Monica. I could care less about her. Actually, I felt bad for her at the time. She was young, naive and got taken advantage of. My comments are simply about how Hillary handled the situation.


I think you will find that this proud mother of a veteran would agree with every word that you say.
I am also a veteran, and I believe that another loss because of politicians would be fatal to the western world.
As for provision of these things she asks for by the government, no, I think that is NOT what she meant. Marigold is quite aware of what it costs to be free, and probably more of a patriot than I have met in quite a while. I believe that she is aware of the lies and deceit put across to the public by prospective presidential candidates. So who is one to choose???
They are all after the power, the job, the bucks, the perks that go with it.
I suppose the best anyone can hope for is their own personal choice.
k ???
Wombat

Fair enough I suppose... Still, I would like to see Marigolds comments here. I just hope that her desire to end the conflict are not selfish ones. By that I mean the simple fact that she wants her son to be safe. Of course ANY mother wants their children to be safe. But how safe will our world be if we run in the face of this enemy?

Also, just for the record, I am quite disappointed with the way the current administration has horribly mis-managed this conflict. I HATE it when politicians play politics with the lives of our soldiers. If a person REALLY 'supports the troops' they will want them to WIN.

[lizbud]

Still, I would like to see Marigolds comments here. I just hope that her desire to end the conflict are not selfish ones. By that I mean the simple fact that she wants her son to be safe. Of course ANY mother wants their children to be safe. But how safe will our world be if we run in the face of this enemy?

They are an enemy in part because we attacked & bombed them without
truth that they had harmed us on 9/11.

Just wanted say that my children are not in the military, but if they were,
you would find me to be the most selfish woman on earth.I do understand
Marigolds comments very well. :)

[sparks19]

Now let me start by saying.... I do not have children in the military.... for obvious reasons lol. And I think the worst pain in the world would be for a parent to outlive their child.... IMO, there is nothing that can compare.

BUT.... after knowing my mother in law and talking to her about my husbands past deployments I am of the frame of mind that if you aren't supporting their mission you aren't supporting them. She also went through the "not knowing where he was" the "not being able to speak with him" the "constant worry" but she has never and I don't think she would EVER say that she hated their cause or their mission. She was just proud and nothing else. She didn't tell him she was proud and then behind his back talk about how ridiculous it was that he was doing something she claimed she was proud of him for. She passed her time by making care packages for the troops.... writing letters and sending cookies. She was always nothing but supportive. I truly admire her strength and courage.

NOW ... before anyone gets their panties in a twist ... I am not in anyway attacking anyone who wants their children home.... to not want your children home would be a far worse thing. and as mismanaged as this war has been.... our problems with the middle east did not start after 9/11. it just came to a head after 9/11. Troops have been over in the middle east for YEARS before 9/11 was even a twinkle in anyone's eye. To blame the issues over there on one man is simply.... silly. he just decided to do something about it and screwed up. But the problems were there long before... the fighting was there long before... and if we just pull out.... the fighting will still be there long after.

Frankly, Hillary's resolution for this war scares the crap out of me. To simply pull out would be detrimental IMO. Call me selfish but I would rather the war be fought over there.... than to be brought over here because someone thought retreating would just stop it all.

[Grace]

I am married to a VietNam Veteran - 2 tours over there. I am the mother of a Navy pilot - retired.

The VietNam War was a mistake, and this present conflict is even worse. We had no business invading Iraq - they had nothing to do with 9/11. This war has been about money, oil, power and ego from the beginning. I call it George's Folly, and the sooner we are out of there, the safer we will be.

The sooner he is out of office, the safer we will be.

IMHO.

[Puckstop31]

I am married to a VietNam Veteran - 2 tours over there. I am the mother of a Navy pilot - retired.

The VietNam War was a mistake, and this present conflict is even worse. We had no business invading Iraq - they had nothing to do with 9/11. This war has been about money, oil, power and ego from the beginning. I call it George's Folly, and the sooner we are out of there, the safer we will be.

The sooner he is out of office, the safer we will be.

IMHO.

My father had 3 tours. What is your point? Even better how about you spell Vietnam correctly...

How do you think we will be safer if we leave Iraq? Also, yes Iraq probably had nothing to do with 9/11, directly. But that was not the reason we went anyway. Granted, the reasons touted by the administration where wrong and stupid from the start. Too bad nobody had the guts to call it like it was. But now the reason WHY we are there does not matter anymore. We ARE there.

I cannot wait to see your answer as to how we will be safe if we leave defeated? 10 to 1 you show just how ignorant most Americans are as to just how serious this is. This is about WAY more than George W. Bush. Curse him for screwing this up so bad.

Look at things without your prism of hate for the President.

[Puckstop31]

They are an enemy in part because we attacked & bombed them without
truth that they had harmed us on 9/11.

You must watch to much TV. You obviously do not know anything about this enemy.


Just wanted say that my children are not in the military, but if they were,
you would find me to be the most selfish woman on earth.I do understand
Marigolds comments very well. :)

What is your freedom worth to you then? What would you pay? Think about it a second before you answer. Think about what our freedom really is.

Would YOU die for it? Or is it better to be a slave?

[Grace]

My father had 3 tours. What is your point? Even better how about you spell Vietnam correctly...

How do you think we will be safer if we leave Iraq? Also, yes Iraq probably had nothing to do with 9/11, directly. But that was not the reason we went anyway. Granted, the reasons touted by the administration where wrong and stupid from the start. Too bad nobody had the guts to call it like it was. But now the reason WHY we are there does not matter anymore. We ARE there.

I cannot wait to see your answer as to how we will be safe if we leave defeated? 10 to 1 you show just how ignorant most Americans are as to just how serious this is. This is about WAY more than George W. Bush. Curse him for screwing this up so bad.

Look at things without your prism of hate for the President.

As I said, I was stating my own opinion - just as everyone else here has stated theirs. Why are you so defensive? And why do you not respect that we all may differ? I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.

[Marigold2]

The VietNam War was a mistake, and this present conflict is even worse. We had no business invading Iraq - they had nothing to do with 9/11. This war has been about money, oil, power and ego from the beginning. I call it George's Folly, and the sooner we are out of there, the safer we will be.

The sooner he is out of office, the safer we will be.

I totally agree with you Grace.

Everyone knows now that George Bush and his pals lied to us about the WMD. We were led into this war on false pretenses. Our own president lied to us. Our friends around the world do not support us, they have no respect for Bush. Laying to us and endangering our people is not being a good leader, or a good man. If someone such as Hilary voted for the war it was because Bush gave false statements. She like most people belived him, that was her mistake. I sure she won't make it again.
I totally support every military personal. That does not mean I have to support the war. I pray for their safety and do what I can to help them all come home safe. If I am being selfish wanting my son safe, well then be it so. Every sane mom wants that. There are mothers in the Middle East that encourge their sons and daughters to strap bombs on themselves and blow up as many innocent victims as possible. I do not can not understand this.
If you knew me you would know how proud of my son I am. He has so many talents, he is such a good man. He served his country proudly and in fact still does. I am behind him 100% but I don't want him to have to go overseas and suffer both physically and mentally for a lie. People don't understand war, they think it is over for you when you return, it is not. The things you see, hear, smell are with you a lifetime. People talk about the stress of 9/11 well if you are in a war zone 9/11 is EVERYDAY and everyday you are in the Towers watching people you love die. That is war. We as a nation suffered and wept for our people on 9/11, more soldiers have died overseas for this war then died in the towers. It was a horrible thing that happened that day. And it is a horrible thing that is happening to our children and husbands now. One of my best friend's husband just came back after serving a year. He is a different man. Gone is the sweet, loving father and husband, in his place is an angry, bitter, frightened shell of a man. I don't know if their marriage will surive. That is war. No man or woman who serves is ever the same. No family is ever like it was. As the strongest country on this planet we should be the peacemakers. Instead we have a president that lied to us and led us into a war, killing our people, damaging families and leading to disrespect through out the world.
As for the question what is freedom worth to me? Freedom does not have to come by war, it can come by kindness as well.

[wombat2u2004]

Puckstop wrote: "10 to 1 you show just how ignorant most Americans are as to just how serious this is. This is about WAY more than George W. Bush. Curse him for screwing this up so bad."

Yup...I gotta agree with that one. Too many heads in the sand.
Wombat

[Pam]

I am going out on a limb here with a statement with which many will not agree. I personally don't think Bush lied to the American people. Just think about it for a minute. If he knew beforehand that there were no WMD how long did he think he could keep up the charade? Wouldn't he have realized that the minute we invaded them the truth would come to light and he'd look like a fool or, worse yet, a liar. Come on, I don't know anyone who would put themselves in that position. I believe he was given inaccurate information and acted upon it. Of course then the blame for that can be leveled at him for choosing those people in the first place. His fault, in my opinion, was having no exit strategy. I hope that the next president can bring this to a close (hopefully before then). I just don't see Hillary being that president.

[Puckstop31]

Everyone knows now that George Bush and his pals lied to us about the WMD. We were led into this war on false pretenses. Our own president lied to us.

Since this thread has really derailed...

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 | Source

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 | Source

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 | Source

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 | Source

"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 | Source

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 | Source

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton.
- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 | Source

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 | Source

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 | Source

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 | Source

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 | Source

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 | Source

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 | Source

EVERYBODY was duped by Saddam Hussein.


As for the question what is freedom worth to me? Freedom does not have to come by war, it can come by kindness as well.

While a nice thought to have, both human nature and history disagree with you. Freedom always has a high cost.

[wombat2u2004]

I am going out on a limb here with a statement with which many will not agree. I personally don't think Bush lied to the American people. Just think about it for a minute. If he knew beforehand that there were no WMD how long did he think he could keep up the charade? Wouldn't he have realized that the minute we invaded them the truth would come to light and he'd look like a fool or, worse yet, a liar. Come on, I don't know anyone who would put themselves in that position. I believe he was given inaccurate information and acted upon it. Of course then the blame for that can be leveled at him for choosing those people in the first place. His fault, in my opinion, was having no exit strategy. I hope that the next president can bring this to a close (hopefully before then). I just don't see Hillary being that president.

I agree with you Pam, you are so very right.
Wombat

[wombat2u2004]

[QUOTE=Puckstop31]Since this thread has really derailed...

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 | Source

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 | Source

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 | Source

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 | Source

"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 | Source

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 | Source

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton.
- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 | Source

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 | Source

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 | Source

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 | Source

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 | Source

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 | Source

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 | Source

EVERYBODY was duped by Saddam Hussein.

Too late now folks.
You opened the door and let em into home. Just like we have done here in Aussieland. I'll give it say........2 generations. By then there will be so many of them that they'll start being in politics.
You think you know what corruption is ???? You all ain't seen nuthin yet !!!!
Wom

[Cataholic]

Puckstop31- statistically speaking, you cannot be right 100% of the time, on everything. Would you mind backing up a bit, and allowing others to freely express their views, even when they might differ from yours?

[sparks19]

Puckstop31- statistically speaking, you cannot be right 100% of the time, on everything. Would you mind backing up a bit, and allowing others to freely express their views, even when they might differ from yours?


I don't see him not allowing others to freely express their views. They are perfectly free to do so.... BUT (what a wonderful thing free speech is) he is ALSO free to disagree and state exactly why he disagrees. He is allowed to question their reasons for feeling the way they do.... just as others have questioned him for feeling and believing what he does. It's a wonderful two way street :D Obviously he is not the only one that feels this way.

PAM, EXCELLENT point. It sucks being the president I would imagine LOL. You get your intel from others but you and you alone must take the blame or the praise for it. it's a tough job to have and it is not a job I would want. Everyone wants to place blame but the fact is.... the blame CANNOT be put on one person alone.

[Puckstop31]

Puckstop31- statistically speaking, you cannot be right 100% of the time, on everything. Would you mind backing up a bit, and allowing others to freely express their views, even when they might differ from yours?

Ummm, No. Others are freely exppressing their views and I am arguing my position against theirs. It is called debate. Sorry if my views are not in synch with most people here.

Also, where did I ever say I am right 100% of the time? I believe very strongly in my opinions and I like to think I am good at backing them up. That does not make me right all of the time.

That silly freedom of speech thing, ya know?

[lizbud]

You must watch to much TV. You obviously do not know anything about this enemy.



Is that it? That's all you have to say? :confused:

Me thinks you must have stopped too many pucks with your noggin fella. :)

[sparks19]

Is that it? That's all you have to say? :confused:

Me thinks you must have stopped too many pucks with your noggin fella. :)


Such is life being a goaltender. Take it from someone who knows.... it takes a "special" kinda person to be a goalie. LOL not only am I married to one... but I have two brothers who are also goalies. LOL BUT after saying that.... it takes a special kind of woman to understand them :D But I wouldn't trade him for anything in the world.

[Puckstop31]

Is that it? That's all you have to say? :confused:

Me thinks you must have stopped too many pucks with your noggin fella. :)

Well, it is clear you do not understand the threat we face. It is not uncommon either these days.

So, knowing that... Why bother going farther?

[lizbud]

Such is life being a goaltender. Take it from someone who knows.... it takes a "special" kinda person to be a goalie. LOL not only am I married to one... but I have two brothers who are also goalies. LOL BUT after saying that.... it takes a special kind of woman to understand them :D But I wouldn't trade him for anything in the world.


Well, his condition has it's advantages I imagine. he can have "senior moments" without getting any older. :D

[lvpets2002]

:) Well I dont try to Spin Doc. to any politics.. However Lets See If a Woman can Handle this job.. For pete-sake we have already seen what the Men can-Not do..

[sparks19]

:) Well I dont try to Spin Doc. to any politics.. However Lets See If a Woman can Handle this job.. For pete-sake we have already seen what the Men can-Not do..


I just don't want to vote for someone just because they are a woman and we have seen what men do so let's give a woman a chance.... to me that is a scary way to guage your vote.

I vote for the candidate that has ideas and goals that I believe in. I don't vote for a particular party, I don't vote for the best looking candidate and I certainly won't vote for someone just because they are a woman.... Her ideas, so far, are not in my most important issues list and frankly I don't agree with half of what she wants to do.... I'm not even sure she believes in what she wants to do. Being a woman doesn't override my concerns that is for sure.

[Grace]

I just don't want to vote for someone just because they are a woman and we have seen what men do so let's give a woman a chance.... to me that is a scary way to guage your vote.

I vote for the candidate that has ideas and goals that I believe in. I don't vote for a particular party, I don't vote for the best looking candidate and I certainly won't vote for someone just because they are a woman....

Exactly how I do it. I've never voted a straight party ticket in my life. I like to say that the art of ticket splitting was taught in kindergarten when I was growing up.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Anybody remember when George I picked the incredibly unqualifed Dan Quayle for his running mate because he was good looking and resembled Robert Redford? Figured that would get the female vote. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

But then...no one has ever gone broke underestimating the gullibility of the American public! Especially if your last name is Bush!

[Sophist]

He got into office, didn't he?


Sophist wanders away from her keyboard to stare dreamily at the life-size cardboard cut-out of Danny Quayle she keeps in her bedroom.




Ugh.... //shudders.

[sparks19]

But then...no one has ever gone broke underestimating the gullibility of the American public! !

YA just look at Hollywood

[Puckstop31]

Well, his condition has it's advantages I imagine. he can have "senior moments" without getting any older. :D

You might be on to something there... LOL I mean, I stand in in front of a 6 ounce frozen piece of rubber, going 90mph... On purpose... For FUN.

:D

[sparks19]

You might be on to something there... LOL I mean, I stand in in front of a 6 ounce frozen piece of rubber, going 90mph... On purpose... For FUN.

:D


LOL I will never understand THAT completely... but it does something for me hahahaha.

Also, just to mention the "you can't be right 100% of the time." well DUH.... he's married :D YOu know what they say.... "in a marriage there is one person who is always right... and the other is a husband" LOL

HEHE I'm just teasing

[Edwina's Secretary]

He got into office, didn't he?


Yes.....and no....

[Edwina's Secretary]

. Now she claims she was always opposed to the war. But her vote is on record...


It is actually a pretty smart move for you to make, speaking from an objective debate stance.

Are you suggesting Hilary has denied her pro-Iraq war vote? I think not. Tried to explain it, yes, but deny it...no.

When might you start exhibiting "objective debate stance"?

Again...not a fan of Hilary...just the truth...she never claimed to be a Jew, she never claimed to be a long-term New Yorker and she never claimed to have voted against the war.

You have put all those words in her mouth.....

Or are you practicing Sophist debate? ...you know...fallacious reasoning?

[lizbud]

LOL I will never understand THAT completely... but it does something for me hahahaha.


Did you always like the 3 stooges too? :p




Also, just to mention the "you can't be right 100% of the time." well DUH.... he's married :D YOu know what they say.... "in a marriage there is one person who is always right... and the other is a husband" LOL




I understand. I'll take it easy on the boy. :D

[cassiesmom]

Questions, I have questions...

Can Mrs. Clinton win? I saw a bumper sticker on a car that said, Anyone But Clinton

Can Barack Obama win? I'm not sure about him either, he has not been a senator very long, he doesn't have much of a track record yet. Do people outside of Illinois even know who this guy is?

Can it be said that it's good for America to have both a white female and a black male candidate in the Presidential primary? Even if neither of them end up being the president will we still have accomplished something? All the front running Republicans are white males.

And, finally - can it be said that the Democrats and the Republicans are not as far apart on the issues as they once were?

[Edwina's Secretary]

Can Barack Obama win? I'm not sure about him either, he has not been a senator very long, he doesn't have much of a track record yet. Do people outside of Illinois even know who this guy is?


I don't really count as "outside of Illinois" but I think Mr. Obama has had HUGE national press lately. Cover of TIME, Newsweek....heck...Fox Network is making up lies about him so he must be getting national attention. As for how long he has been a senator....GW Bush was govenor of Texas for six years (one and a half terms) before he ran for President.... :D :rolleyes: :D Not the best example I realize but still....

Abraham Lincoln served in the Illinois House of Representatives and only one term in the US House of Representatives.

[Lady's Human]

Not that anyone remembers, being that the national memory tends to be something on the order of 30 seconds, but it's not exactly new to have a female or a minority candidate in the primaries. Is everyone's memory so bad as to forget Elizabeth Dole, Geraldine Ferraro, and Jesse Jackson?

[cassiesmom]

Is everyone's memory so bad as to forget Elizabeth Dole, Geraldine Ferraro, and Jesse Jackson?

Well, let's see... Ferraro ran for VP with Walter Mondale when I was in high school... Jesse Jackson had a couple of tries in the 80s and has had one or two subsequently... but yes, I had forgotten about Mrs. Dole. I know she has had other important government and philanthropic positions but I forgot about her being a presidential candidate. (For some reason Saturday Night Live spoofs of Mr. Senator Dole leap to my mind! What's that about, I wonder?) But my memory is bad enough to forget other things, too, like I really need to stop for cat food and litter on my way home from my rehearsal tonight, I need to return my overdue library books and I probably ought to swing by the dry cleaner and get my heavy coat cleaned before the weather shifts back to typical March in Chicago again. My memory is like a colander these days. I can't speak for anyone else's, though.

[lizbud]

Not that anyone remembers, being that the national memory tends to be something on the order of 30 seconds, but it's not exactly new to have a female or a minority candidate in the primaries. Is everyone's memory so bad as to forget Elizabeth Dole, Geraldine Ferraro, and Jesse Jackson?


None of these candidates were credible candidates when they announced.
the ones announcing runs in 2007 are. People are starting to take the idea
of minority or women candidates seriously. They are finally able to raise the
vast amounts of money needed today.

[Sophist]

Yes.....and no....

We were talking about Daddy Bush, not Dubya. He did indeed get elected. :p

[Sophist]

Are you suggesting Hilary has denied her pro-Iraq war vote? I think not. Tried to explain it, yes, but deny it...no.

When might you start exhibiting "objective debate stance"?

Again...not a fan of Hilary...just the truth...she never claimed to be a Jew, she never claimed to be a long-term New Yorker and she never claimed to have voted against the war.

You have put all those words in her mouth.....

Or are you practicing Sophist debate? ...you know...fallacious reasoning?

Sophist reasoning is not always synonymous with fallacious. You didn't read the whole definition I provided.

I have not put any of these words in Hilary's mouth. Again, please, please, pretty pretty please read some of Hilary's speeches and press releases.

I don't remember saying she flat-out denied voting for the war? No, not those exact words. But read her recent statements, she is clearly making it sounds like she never supported it. I did try to make the point that she was for the war until other Dem forerunners openly opposed it and gained polling points. And then she was passionately against it. Gee, how convenient.

If you honestly think she didn't reveal her supposedly Jewish heritage (which she lied about, saying her grandmother was jewish when she was only married to a jewish man for a little while) after the New York Jewish community revolted on her for reports of her using ethnic slurs against Jewish politicians and publicly supporting Arafat's wife, then you are definitely a historical revisionist. She very, very strongly and repeatedly emphasized this among the Hassidic communities her support was flagging in. And guess what? Judiasm is typically passed down through a matrilineal line---at least, as far as devout jews are concerned. This is why she didn't say her father's mother was married to a jew---which would make her not Jewish according to traditional judaic law. She said her grandmother was a jew... a lie that, according to the Orthodox Jews she was campaigning amongst made her a Jew.

And her fudging of her residency requirements and involvement in New York politics is a matter of recent, well-documented record.

Denying obvious facts and committing personal attacks on those who try to make you listen to them doesn't make them go away, and refusing to learn more about a politician doesn't serve your turn well in defending their suitability for office.

[Sophist]

Not that anyone remembers, being that the national memory tends to be something on the order of 30 seconds, but it's not exactly new to have a female or a minority candidate in the primaries. Is everyone's memory so bad as to forget Elizabeth Dole, Geraldine Ferraro, and Jesse Jackson?

I think it was meant that it was a good thing to see both a minority and a woman running in the same election. Because, once again, apparently race and gender are big indicators of a politician's worth. :rolleyes:


Then again, I do think Obama tends to be more of a... Hmm... how to phrase this?

I think Obama is more of a serious candidate than Jackson, with a much better chance than Jackson had.

[Edwina's Secretary]

We were talking about Daddy Bush, not Dubya. He did indeed get elected. :p


Elected (that's the "yes")...lost his run for reelection (that's the "no"...)

[Edwina's Secretary]

Sophist reasoning is not always synonymous with fallacious. You didn't read the whole definition I provided.



Never saw the definition you posted....I rely on my Merriam Webster...it says...."a captious or fallacious reasoner."

It goes on to say "fallacious, illogical, unreasonable, specious".....I left those out.

[Sophist]

Never saw the definition you posted....I rely on my Merriam Webster...it says...."a captious or fallacious reasoner."

It goes on to say "fallacious, illogical, unreasonable, specious".....I left those out.

Well, then, it is a very incomplete definition and does an injustice to the Sophist school of philosophy and rhetoric.


It is all Plato's fault :p .

[Edwina's Secretary]

doesn't serve your turn well in defending their suitability for office.

I ask you....where....exactly where...have I defending Hillary's suitability for office?

I have defended the truth....maybe just not your truth ;) :p

[Sophist]

I ask you....where....exactly where...have I defending Hillary's suitability for office?

I have defended the truth....maybe not your[I] truth ;) :p


Not your [I] truth? Open tag, or am I missing something here?

Again with the personal attacks instead of actual rebuttals. And no, 'Nuh-uh!' doesn't count as a rebuttal.

I think denying all the well-known indiscrepancies in a candidate's representation of herself counts as defending her. In that respect, pretty much every post of yours I can recall in this thread. Sorry, not big on words games like that.

And if 'my' truth is closer to the truth one will find with even moderate delving into Hilary's past instead of just sitting back and saying "No, I just won't believe that because it sounds bad!" Well, then... I am okay with that.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I have said repeatedly....I am not a fan of Hillary because of her vote for funding the invasion of Iraq. Nor have I denied discrepancies.

Saying something is well-known does not make it so.

I don't like hyperbole and that is what you engage in.

You also fail to answer direct questions.

By golly I think you have a career in politics! ;) :D

[Puckstop31]

I understand. I'll take it easy on the boy. :D

Please don't. I really enjoy debate.

Boy... LOL

[Sophist]

I have said repeatedly....I am not a fan of Hillary because of her vote for funding the invasion of Iraq. Nor have I denied discrepancies.

Saying something is well-known does not make it so.

I don't like hyperbole and that is what you engage in.

You also fail to answer direct questions.

By golly I think you have a career in politics! ;) :D

No, actually I am now failing to answer direct questions that have already been repeatedly answered. The first few times an answer is ignored and the same questions are just rephrased a bit tends to take some of the fun out of the debate.



Perhaps I am guilty of hyperbole, but that is a much more acceptable form of bad debate manners than the ad hominem attacks you seem to favor.

How are you supposed to debate the issues with someone who only responds with "Nah, that sounds bad, I'll pretend it is a complete lie and just insult you instead"???

[Puckstop31]

How are you supposed to debate the issues with someone who only responds with "Nah, that sounds bad, I'll pretend it is a complete lie and just insult you instead"???

;)

In my experience Sophist, this means the other party has nothing to counter your points with. Basically, you are "winning" the debate.

:D

(Does anybody ever really 'win' a debate on a website?)

[wombat2u2004]

;)

In my experience Sophist, this means the other party has nothing to counter your points with. Basically, you are "winning" the debate.

:D

(Does anybody ever really 'win' a debate on a website?)

Thats true.....especially with who you have been arguing with Sophist.
Get used to her style of answering questions with a question.
I'd agree with Puck....you're miles ahead.
Wombat

[Edwina's Secretary]

No, actually I am now failing to answer direct questions that have already been repeatedly answered. The first few times an answer is ignored and the same questions are just rephrased a bit tends to take some of the fun out of the debate.



Perhaps I am guilty of hyperbole, but that is a much more acceptable form of bad debate manners than the ad hominem attacks you seem to favor.

How are you supposed to debate the issues with someone who only responds with "Nah, that sounds bad, I'll pretend it is a complete lie and just insult you instead"???

You do some mighty fine ad hominen yourself! Your trick to not answer questions is interesting...When did I say "Nah, that sounds bad, I'll pretend it is a complete lie and just insult you instead?"

I have asked you to prove your statement that Hillary claimed to be a Jew. I asked you to prove your statement that Hillary claimed to be a long-term resident of New York (yes, I know she put on a Yankees hat and we all know she is a Cubs fan... :rolleyes: ) I asked you WHERE I ever supported Hillary as a candidate.

You answered none of these questions. Instead you suggested anyone who disagrees with your assessment does not know, has not studied, etc, etc. "please, please, please".......and of course...."no, not in those exact words..."

[sparks19]

YAWN. Now this is just getting boring. lol

Let's stick to the debate and not this "well you said this" bull.... :D

[Pawsitive Thinking]

I remember a woman Prime Minister :eek:

[lizbud]

YAWN. Now this is just getting boring. lol

Let's stick to the debate and not this "well you said this" bull.... :D


If you are bored, you can aways find something else to do. I don't think
anyone here is supposed to keep you entertained. :p

[sparks19]

If you are bored, you can aways find something else to do. I don't think
anyone here is supposed to keep you entertained. :p

WHAT?

Are you sure?

AGain, LOL working in a bead shop doesn't exactly take up a lot of time. What else am I supposed to do for fun :p

[lizbud]

You could peddle the beads door to door. :D

[IRescue452]

I hate Hilary, but since I was voted out of citizen rights here in the US, I'll vote for her anyway just so I can be considered human again in my own country.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Well... I certainly would not want to bore anyone...so my closing statement....

Did Hillary pander to the Jewish populstion in New York after the brouhaha over her embrace of Arafat's widow? Absolutely. Did she trot out an obsure relative who was Jewish? Absolutely. Did she claim to be Jewish because it is possible that someone in the audience might have thought that maternally she was desended from a Jew? I don't know what anyone in her audience was thinking but she did not make such a claim.

Did she establish residency in New York after a VERY high profile residency in Washinton DC and Arkansas? Absolutely She is a carpetbagger -- same as Robert Kennedy when he did it. Did she present herself as a long term resident? Other than the Yankee cap....how could she? Residency and politicans is a fluid thing. Cheney had to change his residency from Texas at the last moment as the president and vice-president cannot be from the same state.

Have I defended her suitability for office?....absolutely not. In fact, I have stated repeatedly that I do not. My reason for not supporting her is I find her too willing to bend to the political wind...as evidenced by her vote for funding the invasion of Iraq...among other things. Is she the only politician, or citizen for that matter, who originally supported the invasion and now does not? Nope. I have read her explanation and her statements at the time of her vote. Interesting, clarifying...but still not good enough for me.

I believe the discussion should be based on facts...not somebody's spin. But as some find that boring...

[sparks19]

Well... I certainly would not want to bore anyone...so my closing statement....

Did Hillary pander to the Jewish populstion in New York after the brouhaha over her embrace of Arafat's widow? Absolutely. Did she trot out an obsure relative who was Jewish? Absolutely. Did she claim to be Jewish because it is possible that someone in the audience might have thought that maternally she was desended from a Jew? I don't know what anyone in her audience was thinking but she did not make such a claim.

Did she establish residency in New York after a VERY high profile residency in Washinton DC and Arkansas? Absolutely She is a carpetbagger -- same as Robert Kennedy when he did it. Did she present herself as a long term resident? Other than the Yankee cap....how could she? Residency and politicans is a fluid thing. Cheney had to change his residency from Texas at the last moment as the president and vice-president cannot be from the same state.

Have I defended her suitability for office?....absolutely not. In fact, I have stated repeatedly that I do not. My reason for not supporting her is I find her too willing to bend to the political wind...as evidenced by her vote for funding the invasion of Iraq...among other things. Is she the only politician, or citizen for that matter, who originally supported the invasion and now does not? Nope. I have read her explanation and her statements at the time of her vote. Interesting, clarifying...but still not good enough for me.

I believe the discussion should be based on facts...not somebody's spin. But as some find that boring...

See.... giving your side was not hard :D You don't have to be facetious or condescending to give your point. THAT is what is boring. FACTS are not boring. personal jabs and junk like "well this is what you were implying" ARE boring in a debate. Debate the facts... not the person. You say you believe it should be based on facts but you were not giving any... you were just being condescending in criticizing what someone was saying without giving your own facts.

Although.... if my step grandfather was jewish... I wouldn't bring that out in a political statement because it has absolutely no bearing on anything. It seemed to have no purpose other than to get the Jewish community to think she understands their lifestyle. IMO, just having a step granfather for a short period of time does not give her any insight into the jewish community. Perhaps if she had said that she had studied his religion closely and followed his lifestyle closely, then perhaps it could have some credibility to it but just to know someone who was jewish does not give you a deeper understanding. :D So it may seem that they would know better.... but As stated before... we are a gullible society.

[wombat2u2004]

See.... giving your side was not hard :D You don't have to be facetious or condescending to give your point. THAT is what is boring. FACTS are not boring. personal jabs and junk like "well this is what you were implying" ARE boring in a debate. Debate the facts... not the person. You say you believe it should be based on facts but you were not giving any... you were just being condescending in criticizing what someone was saying without giving your own facts.

Although.... if my step grandfather was jewish... I wouldn't bring that out in a political statement because it has absolutely no bearing on anything. It seemed to have no purpose other than to get the Jewish community to think she understands their lifestyle. IMO, just having a step granfather for a short period of time does not give her any insight into the jewish community. Perhaps if she had said that she had studied his religion closely and followed his lifestyle closely, then perhaps it could have some credibility to it but just to know someone who was jewish does not give you a deeper understanding. :D So it may seem that they would know better.... but As stated before... we are a gullible society.

Wow....Sparks are flying....lol.
Hey....what colour beads do you sell ???
Wombat

[Pam]

Have I defended her suitability for office?....absolutely not. In fact, I have stated repeatedly that I do not. My reason for not supporting her is I find her too willing to bend to the political wind...as evidenced by her vote for funding the invasion of Iraq...among other things.

OK everyone, batten down the hatches. I find this post from ES refreshing and I applaud her for this. Also, in another thread several weeks ago I agreed with her on something. What is the world coming to? Is it about to end? :p :eek:

[mugsy]

DANG! It took me THREE days to finally get through this thread...it's annoying when this thing called work gets in the way of reading this stuff.

I have voted in every primary and election (with the exception of 1 primary) since 1980 and I have yet to vote a straight ticket. Some years I vote more Republican and others more Democrat and still others it's an even split with some Libertarians and such thrown in for good measure.

Simply put, I vote the person not the party.

My personal feeling on Hillary is that she is just flat out scary, for all of the above mentioned reasons and for some other things, like Whitewater and Vince Foster, as well.

I'm still researching so I have not made a command decision yet, who I will support for president.

[Cataholic]

I'm still researching so I have not made a command decision yet, who I will support for president.

Just answer me one thing, would I get your vote if I ran? :D

[sparks19]

Wow....Sparks are flying....lol.
Hey....what colour beads do you sell ???
Wombat


ALL colours, sizes, shapes and materials LOL. You name the colour we probably have it in something lol. We have 60 some colours in Swarovski Crystals alone LOL.

And since I'm flying.... it better be to some place good lol

[mugsy]

;) :D
Just answer me one thing, would I get your vote if I ran? :D

Well, if you ran, of course I would!!! :p

[wombat2u2004]

ALL colours, sizes, shapes and materials LOL. You name the colour we probably have it in something lol. We have 60 some colours in Swarovski Crystals alone LOL.

And since I'm flying.... it better be to some place good lol

Oh you want to fly ???
I'll send over my ex's broomstick right away. LOL
And what on earth is a Swarovski Crystal ???
I'm a man you know....my knowlege of beads is a little limited. :cool:
Wom

[Edwina's Secretary]

Just answer me one thing, would I get your vote if I ran? :D


"Please, please please" run Cataholic...I will not only vote for you...I'll be your campaign manager! :D :D :D

[wombat2u2004]

Just answer me one thing, would I get your vote if I ran? :D

Well that would depend on how fast you ran.
Wom

[Cataholic]

Couch to fridge and back, about 10 seconds...not fast enough to avoid, "mom mom sit on couch please now"- LOL. I swear that child thinks I am leaving him....

[Cinder & Smoke]

:D



Just answer me one thing,
would I get your vote if I ran? :D

We have another CANDIDATE!!

She's *IN*! (She just said so, sorta.)

'Bout as much of a "commitment" as some of the "announced" wonders have offered ...
And we could do worse (quite possibly WILL do worse :rolleyes: ) ...

So who's handling the campaign details?
We need a Joh Slogan!

Joh fur Prez!

:D

[sparks19]

Oh you want to fly ???
I'll send over my ex's broomstick right away. LOL
And what on earth is a Swarovski Crystal ???
I'm a man you know....my knowlege of beads is a little limited. :cool:
Wom

LOL actually Swarovski is located in Austria.... they are best known for their Crystal figurines.... but they have gotten into making beads. They are very shiny lol and come ni all shapes and sizes and colours lol.

Does that broomstick have a kick start? because I can never get those pull starts to work for me :p

[Edwina's Secretary]

Not that anyone remembers, being that the national memory tends to be something on the order of 30 seconds, but it's not exactly new to have a female or a minority candidate in the primaries. Is everyone's memory so bad as to forget Elizabeth Dole, Geraldine Ferraro, and Jesse Jackson?

And what about Victoria Woodhull?...the first woman to run for president...even before women could vote and Shirley Chisolm?... I yearn for the day I will be able to vote for a woman for a president...

So say you'll do it Cataholic!

[wombat2u2004]

LOL actually Swarovski is located in Austria.... they are best known for their Crystal figurines.... but they have gotten into making beads. They are very shiny lol and come ni all shapes and sizes and colours lol.

Does that broomstick have a kick start? because I can never get those pull starts to work for me :p

Ahhhh...fair enuf....I thought that name sounded Russian.
As for the broomstick.....nope...no motor....it just goes by itself.
It is a very simple, no frills, basic model.....I call it the Edwina model.
Wom

[Barbara]

Cataholic- if you'll be a candidate I'll apply for US citizenship and vote ;)

[Miss Z]

This thread is very interesting for me to read. I can't say that I understand every detail, but it's interesting all the same!




“ Two thousand years ago the proudest boast was civis romanus sum [I am a Roman citizen]. Today, in the world of freedom, the proudest boast is 'Ich bin ein Berliner'...All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Berlin, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words 'Ich bin ein Berliner!' „



Just on Kennedy's speech in Berlin, the phrase he should have used was 'Ich bin Berliner'. In German, when referring to oneself as a certain nationality or profession name, the word for 'a', which is 'ein', is omitted. The phrase Ich bin ein Berliner' means 'I am a doughnut'. Perhaps not the best idea to compare that particular aspect of Kennedy's life to Hillary's campaigns. ;)