Disabled person in Wal-Mart thrown out!

[animal_rescue]

Because her service dog was a pit bull!

www.chloethepitbull .com/

On the evening of February 8th, I was shopping at the Huntington Beach Walmart with my Service Dog (Chloe) and daughter for approx 1/2 hour. Chloe was extremely well behaved. The Customer Service Manager approached us and asked us to leave because “there are children in the store and we can't have a vicious breed in here.” I was stunned and went over Chloe's training, that she was an Ambassador for her breed, and emphasized what she was asking me to do was illegal according to 1990 American Disability Act 1990. The Walmart Customer Service Manager said that she represented the Store Manager's position as well, and she still did not feel comfortable with the dog in the store and asked us to leave. I again emphasized what she was asking was illegal and to carefully consider what she was asking me. She again asked if we could go, and then when I pressed her for it in writing, she said to finish my shopping quickly and not to linger. I told her I wanted to talk to the Store Manager and followed her upfront. After checking out, I asked her when he was coming - she said he look for us and is now busy. She confirmed it was his decision also and they just got off the phone. I said I would wait and to call him again, she said it would be a while and to go because “it won't matter.”

I left and called our OC HUGS Service Dog president. and then called the Store Manager with her conferenced in. I first confirmed his position that he wanted us to go because of our Service Dog's breed and he said and elaborated his prejudice opinions, stating they were an 'unstable and vicious' breed and banned from different cities. He said he was aware of the Service Dogs and their rights, but he had never seen a Pitbull Service Dog in his 20 years. He also emphasized that it was our responsibility to educate the public and we shared that is what are trying to do starting with him. He was closed minded in his opinions, rude and insensitive, and finally apologized when pressed for one. The incident is still on record and should have never happened.

We went back to the store two days later as we informed them that we would and approx 6 to 8 employees approached us stating that there was a big meeting and they couldn't believe it was blown out of portion. One employee even asked "did you break her of her craziness?" and then went on to say how he heard how the breed had a 'crazy' gene that made them go crazy and hurt people --- UGH!!! I was as polite as possible and informed him about the temperment test and the difference between human aggression and dog aggression, along with socialization and training, etc...

There is a petition you can sign and you can send an online feedback to Wal-Mart and let them know how unhappy you are... trust me I already did it.

[GreyhoundGirl]

:eek: That's OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!! Isn't that illegal? It should be!!!! :mad:

[animal_rescue]

Yes it goes against the Service Dog thing! Anyways I hope they get sued for it!! :mad:

[borzoimom]

A SERVICE DOG IS A SERVICE DOG- GET READY FOR A LAWSUIT WAL-MART! ( I assume this was in the US right?)

[borzoimom]

Any lawyer can handle this one- piece of cake.. ITS ILLEGAL!

[elizabethann]

I saw this on Dogster. Walmart needs a swift kick in the a$$. There are all kinds of service dogs for pete's sake!

[borzoimom]

A SERVICE DOG IS A SERVICE DOG- GET READY FOR A LAWSUIT WAL-MART! ( I assume this was in the US right?)
Period!

[Lady's Human]

What's to sue for?

I could understand asking the state/local disabilities organization to get involved, request retraining for the supervisor, and do random compliance checks, but sue?

The damages were what, exactly?

[borzoimom]

What's to sue for?

I could understand asking the state/local disabilities organization to get involved, request retraining for the supervisor, and do random compliance checks, but sue?

The damages were what, exactly?
Violations on federal and state laws are steep. Also punitive damages are easily met as they have not allowed a disabled person to shop... They would get hit from both state/federal violations and private under the same charge.. No kidding!

[Lady's Human]

They DID allow the disabled person to shop. Being that there were no monetary damages, where's the lawsuit?

If there were punitive actions to be taken that would be up to the state/federal enforcement agency, not a lawsuit in civil court.

[Alysser]

What is the e-mail address I can send my complaints too?

[Kfamr]

This is absolutely downright disgusting.

Here is some info:

8230 Talbert Avenue
Huntington Beach, CA 92646
(714) 841-5390

Store Manager: John Groth - Store #2636
District Manager: Elise Vasquez


Corporate Office Info:
Wal-Mart Stores, Inc.
702 S.W. 8th Street
Bentonville, AR 72716
Telephone: (479) 273-4000

CEO: Rob Walton

But, in reality, will they honestly care? They already treat their employees like crap.
Target is so much better. ;)
http://blog.dmnews.com/wp-content/target.jpg

[catnapper]

T
But, in reality, will they honestly care? They already treat their employees like crap.
Target is so much better. ;)
http://blog.dmnews.com/wp-content/target.jpg
Kay, in all honesty, have you worked there? Is this your personal experience? I know a ton of people - my father included - who work for WalMart and love it. They are treated well. My dad LOVES his job and thinks its the best place he's ever worked. He's worked for Frtune 500 companies in high-powered positions, and he loves WalMart's garden Center best. So until you have a personal experience with WalMart, don't spread the nastiness about how they treat employees poorply.

Personally, from family members who work(ed) for Target, THEY treat employees badly. One family member's boss raped her in the store room and threatened her job if she said no. She's now pregnant with his child. Oh yes, Target's SO much better than WalMart. See... I can take one incident and say its the COMPANY thats bad when its merely poor management.


Now, sorry for the side track......
That poor customer -- what a shame she was treated that way. Ignorance can not and should not be a reason to disallow any service animal into a store.

[DrKym]

Hate to weigh in on this, but as I do train and have certified Service dogs, Wal-Mart is within their rights to have done what they did.

Now stop and read before you all flame me.
ADA clearly states you cannot refuse service to an customer with a Service animal, yes the woman was treated rudely but her own account states she was able to complete her transaction.

Also if any other customer was upset or they stood to lose sales based on anothers discomfort, AND if the customer wasnt disabled and was causing this issue would they ask/require the customer to leave.
If the answer is Yes, then Wal-mart can ask her to remove the animal.

Another example is a person in a resturant, or movie theatre, if the animal is barking and/or behaving in a way that is disruptuve to other paying customers, then they can be asked to remove the animal.

There are no grounds for a lawsuit here, as both parties were in compliance.

Wal-mart could have handled it better, with a bit more class, however, they allowed the transaction to finish so they are legally in compliance.

[borzoimom]

Now stop and read before you all flame me.
ADA clearly states you cannot refuse service to an customer with a Service animal, yes the woman was treated rudely but her own account states she was able to complete her transaction..
( I need to stop watching movies when i read these posts..lol. I made another major skip in info last night on another thead.. Good thing I only watch movies on saturday night.. lol..Thank you Kym..)
Here is the whole article read earlier. We had a recent experience at Walmart that was very disturbing, especially when considering it impacts the disabled! I would like to ask your help to provide public awareness/education and receive news coverage to ensure the dignity and rights of those individuals depending upon Service Dogs and hopefully educate the public and businesses of Service Dog rights and American Pit Bull Terrier prejudice. Here are the key points of interest:

1.Walmart’s Illegal Treatment of Service Dogs
•Two Walmart managers requested myself and my Service Dog to leave because of her breed stating there were children in the store and she is an unstable and vicious breed - They continued to asked us to leave EVEN AFTER being informed of our Service Dog legal rights and what they were asking was illegal! Two Walmart managers requested myself and my Service Dog to leave because of her breed stating there were children in the store and she is an unstable and vicious breed - They continued to asked us to leave EVEN AFTER being informed of our Service Dog legal rights and what they were asking was illegal! Walmart employees were brief in a meeting afterwards by their management - when we came back two days later as we shared we would, several employees talked with us and with a full range of feedback including , i.e., 'did you break her from her craziness? you know, the craziness on killing people?'
2.Legal rights of people depending upon Service Dogs and the uniqueness of Service Dogs
•Legal rights of people depending upon Service Dogs access to all public facilities, with no discrimination of treatment, etc which is established to preserve their the dignity, freedom, and rights.
•Thousands of dollars in fines for not only the individual people breaking the ADA law, but also thousands for the company they represent
•Service Dogs come in all sizes and breeds - Chihuahuas, Pomeranians, American Pit Bull Terriers , etc. -- Many people only think they are for blind people, but they are also used for medical alerts, balance dogs, hearing dogs, etc) might mention there are monkeys and miniature horses that are used as Service Animals as well
3.Increasing public fear is fed by ignorance and prejudice – The American Pit Bull Terrier bad image overshadows the positive long history of this amazing breed and great value to society
•There are American Pit Bull Terriers providing valuable services today - Search & Rescue (Recovery of the 2003 Shuttle Astronaut Remains), Drug Detection (Largest drug bust found by a American Pit Bull Terrier), Service Dogs and Therapy Dogs, etc.
•Amazing pets - Petey from Our Gang, Theodore Roosevelt, Helen Keller, Michael J. Foxx, etc. Millions now happy owners
•Sad Realities - prejudice similar to Racial Profiling, Breed Specific Legislation (BSL), shrinking rights of owners & dogs (banned from different cities, home insurance coverage, etc) and its NOT solving the problem which comes down to Responsible Ownership!
We are looking for media coverage to:
1.Help preserve the dignity, freedom, and rights of people depending upon Service Dogs by educating Businesses and the Public on their ADA 1990 legal rights and the uniqueness of Service Dogs
2.Help remove ignorance and prejudice by positive promotion of the American Pit Bull Terrier value and merits
Background of incident
On the evening of February 8th, I was shopping at the Huntington Beach Walmart with my Service Dog (Chloe) and daughter for approx 1/2 hour. Chloe was extremely well behaved. The Customer Service Manager approached us and asked us to leave because “there are children in the store and we can't have a vicious breed in here.” I was stunned and went over Chloe's training, that she was an Ambassador for her breed, and emphasized what she was asking me to do was illegal according to 1990 American Disability Act 1990. The Walmart Customer Service Manager said that she represented the Store Manager's position as well, and she still did not feel comfortable with the dog in the store and asked us to leave. I again emphasized what she was asking was illegal and to carefully consider what she was asking me. She again asked if we could go, and then when I pressed her for it in writing, she said to finish my shopping quickly and not to linger. I told her I wanted to talk to the Store Manager and followed her upfront. After checking out, I asked her when he was coming - she said he look for us and is now busy. She confirmed it was his decision also and they just got off the phone. I said I would wait and to call him again, she said it would be a while and to go because “it won't matter.”

I left and called our OC HUGS Service Dog president. and then called the Store Manager with her conferenced in. I first confirmed his position that he wanted us to go because of our Service Dog's breed and he said and elaborated his prejudice opinions, stating they were an 'unstable and vicious' breed and banned from different cities. He said he was aware of the Service Dogs and their rights, but he had never seen a Pitbull Service Dog in his 20 years. He also emphasized that it was our responsibility to educate the public and we shared that is what are trying to do starting with him. He was closed minded in his opinions, rude and insensitive, and finally apologized when pressed for one. The incident is still on record and should have never happened.

We went back to the store two days later as we informed them that we would and approx 6 to 8 employees approached us stating that there was a big meeting and they couldn't believe it was blown out of portion. One employee even asked "did you break her of her craziness?" and then went on to say how he heard how the breed had a 'crazy' gene that made them go crazy and hurt people --- UGH!!! I was as polite as possible and informed him about the temperment test and the difference between human aggression and dog aggression, along with socialization and training, etc...

What has been done so far:
•Have written a formal complaint to corporate Walmart, with phone call to corporate as well. Will be following up with the Regional Manager. Also went back with Chloe and our OC HUGS Service Dog president and another service dog. Several employees approached us with interesting statements
•Have verified legal rights of the American Pit Bull Terrier as a Service Dog and also a Service Dog in training with an attorney, who by the way, has a American Pit Bull Terrier Service Dog!
•Contacting multiple media outlets regarding this incident and issues to help educate and stop the prejudice and illegal treatment of dogs - pls help us get this important story out!
MEDIA COVERAGE So far, here is the list of coverage:
ABC Channel 7 news provided news coverage (view pictures - view Story teaser - full news coverage upload pending - HELP Pls - can't seem to get the 55meg video upload or condensed without sound problems - anyone won't to help? [email protected])
Coming out in the Orange County Register and Fountain Valley View will be featured in a local major So Calif newspaper - weekend of 2/17
Working with online and live radio stations - LISTEN TO A RADIO INTERVIEW http://tinyurl.com/3bsrzh Podcast of 2/16/07 click the 'listen to ipod article' top of page and and look down further for more info - thank you Kim with http://www.animaltalknaturally.com/
Future interviews scheduled with - http://www.thepawzcauze.net/ 2/19/07 - an a live interview with a San Diego Radio Station 2/24/07
• Update our website with Service Dog information, and highlighting Chloe the Service Dog as a Breed Ambassador, her photo/portfolio/capabilities and information on responsible ownership the American Pit Bull Terrier challenges and resources
HOW YOU CAN HELP ENSURE THE RIGHTS OF THE DISABLED AND THE PITBULLS
1) Sign our Petition against Walmart demanding them to 1) ensure the dignity, freedom, and rights of the disabled depending upon Service Dogs by formally educating all their employees on the American with Disabilities Act (ADA 1990) legal rights and the uniqueness of Service Dogs and 2) Help remove ignorance and prejudice of the American Pit Bull Terrier by the positive promotion of their value and merits. http://tinyurl.com/27oyoe Some key points:

How upset you are on Walmart's ILLEGAL treatment according to the ADA 1990 because of Pitbull discrimination!
What it means to you as a shopper (whether you will continue to shop or not)
What you want from them - training for ALL their employees, respectful treatment of Service Dogs, and public WRITTEN apology and support of the Disabled, Training Dogs, and Pitbulls
2) Send Corporate Walmart online feedback so they have their mail boxes hearing your voice as well (copy & paste from your petition). Scroll to the form on the bottom: http://walmartstores.com/GlobalWMStoresWeb/navigate.do?catg=221
BTW, I got a call from a man with polio that had a Pitbull Service Dog for 15 years (it knew 75 commands) and he received the same treatment from another Walmart. There is also a woman who has a open lawsuit for a similar discrimination - different breed of dog.

3) Forward our story www.chloethepitbull.com to your newsgroups, media, and other supporters for coverage and education - again, we are trying to:

1) Ensure the dignity, freedom, and rights of the disabled depending upon Service Dogs by educating their employees and also support the public on the American with Disabilities Act (ADA 1990) legal rights and the uniqueness of Service Dogs and
2) Help remove ignorance and prejudice of the American Pit Bull Terrier by the positive promotion of their value and merits.

4) Send us any Pitbull information/pictures providing public service (Service Dogs, Therapy Dogs, Search & Rescue, Drug Detection, etc.) Want to highlight on the site all that there are many out there - the Walmart Manager said he had never seen one in his 20 years, so he didn't think they existed. We would love to hear your positive and negative stories. email us at [email protected] Looking for:

Service Dog positive and negative experiences - Pitbull would be great (trying to find out how many are out there)
Any newsgroups that may be discussing Chloe and the issues - would like to keep up
Any media or news opportunities to help educate - send us links to your newsgroup's threads as well
Athing else that you might think of as well, i.e., how we can better communicate different issues, other information would like to see...
And of course all your support and personal comments and pictures of your own dogs is definitely inspiring!!! Please know we WILL read each one, but may not be able to respond because of time and demand - again, thank you for your support!
5) Thank the ABC Channel 7 news for the positive coverage and support of the Disable's Rights and positive image of Pitbulls (News Coverage on 2/12/07 @ 5pm News) http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=stationinfo&id=1642694

THANK YOU AGAIN FOR YOUR SUPPORT!

For the rights and dignity of the disabled and the love of Pitbulls,

Gina Pettrow & Chloe
www.chloethepitbull.com

[applesmom]

Inquiring minds want to know:;) These things aren't always what they seem to be.

It seems strange that not once in the narrative does the writer state that the dog was clearly identified as a service dog.

If the dog wasn't causing a disruption or posing a threat, once the dog had been absolutely identified as a service dog the customer service manager should have shut her mouth and moved on.

However if the owner couldn't or wouldn't produce any verification the manager was well within her rights.

Without proof in some form of documentation or obvious equipment, anyone could take a dog into a store and claim it's a service dog. How would a store manager be expected to know the difference?

[DrKym]

Actually applesmom the woman need only have a tag, most but not all service dogs wear a vest and/or collar identifying them as such. It is not required, although it is encouraged.

The fact is, if you have a Service animal, you are told of the rights and the responsibilities you have in using one. Including but not limited to the impact that the animal can or will make on its' surroundings.

Yes there are all types and breeds of Service dogs, and other other specie service animals. Typically primates but there are several certified service felines out there.

This sounds more as if the woman is trying to make a statement about the breed not the legality of allowing it or disallowing it in the store.

As stated before, Wal-mart can certainly use some sensitivity training in customer approach in this scenario. However, they were within their legal rights, the transaction was completed, and for the comfort of other patrons, and/ or the Manager himself was asked to remove the animal.

If this Service animal user wants to have her dog as an ambassador for her breed, I suggest rather than cause a stir in this manner , she show up for the many fun group events, hosted to bring awareness of both the disabilities and the help the help that these animals provide.

Every chapter that places Service animals host them, they are usually but not always coupled with fundraisers to help offset the costs of raising training feeding vetting and placing these wonderful animals.

[borzoimom]

Quote Dr.Goodnow- " This sounds more as if the woman is trying to make a statement about the breed not the legality of allowing it or disallowing it in the store.
Sounded like it to me too...

[applesmom]

Good information, thanks. I'm inclined to agree that she is more determined to make a statement about the breed than the legality of allowing a service dog in the store.

Her statement that the Service manager said she'd never seen a pit bull as a service dog led me to wonder if the owner simply expected her to take her word that the dog actually was a service dog.


Actually applesmom the woman need only have a tag, most but not all service dogs wear a vest and/or collar identifying them as such. It is not required, although it is encouraged.

The fact is, if you have a Service animal, you are told of the rights and the responsibilities you have in using one. Including but not limited to the impact that the animal can or will make on its' surroundings.

Yes there are all types and breeds of Service dogs, and other other specie service animals. Typically primates but there are several certified service felines out there.

This sounds more as if the woman is trying to make a statement about the breed not the legality of allowing it or disallowing it in the store.

As stated before, Wal-mart can certainly use some sensitivity training in customer approach in this scenario. However, they were within their legal rights, the transaction was completed, and for the comfort of other patrons, and/ or the Manager himself was asked to remove the animal.

If this Service animal user wants to have her dog as an ambassador for her breed, I suggest rather than cause a stir in this manner , she show up for the many fun group events, hosted to bring awareness of both the disabilities and the help the help that these animals provide.

Every chapter that places Service animals host them, they are usually but not always coupled with fundraisers to help offset the costs of raising training feeding vetting and placing these wonderful animals.

[sparks19]

I have to agree with Catnapper.

I used to work in Walmarts photo center. they were wonderful. I got an hour for lunch which is much more than I can say for anywhere else I worked. At tim hortons I would work an 8 hour shift with only two fifteen minute breaks and if I wanted to eat I had to scarf down my lunch in fifteen minutes.

I never had a bad experience working for Walmart and I was sad when I had to quit because I was doing schooling fulltime and part time for a while. They ALWAYS backed up their employees if there was a customer complaint. I can't stand companies that get a complaint and blame the employee. it is fine to apologize for the mix up or the problem but I have heard companies throw employees under the bus and say "yeah this isn't the first complaint we have had about them" Whether it is true or not.... a manger or supervisor should NEVER say things like that about their employees to a customer.

I made more than minimum wage. and if they needed help in another department and you were willing to help they were more than willing to compensate you for your help.

I can't say I ever heard a complaint from anyone that worked there.

Dr Goodnow, that is a very interesting point. This story is quite one sided so who knows what really happened. perhaps there were complaints about the animal. Just because you are handicapped you don't get a pass to be disruptive (not saying this woman was but we don'tknow for sure that she wasn't either. Remeber this is HER account of the goings on)

[applesmom]

There are at least three sides to every story! We need to keep in mind that so far we've only heard the dog owners side! :)

[DrKym]

There are at least three sides to every story! We need to keep in mind that so far we've only heard the dog owners side! :)

Yep her side Walmarts side and the truth! ;)

[Kalei]

That absolutely Terrible! :mad: Who cares what breed the dog is, its helping the person out with their disability, not killing the person! Gosh, some people in this world. :mad:

[Kfamr]

Kay, in all honesty, have you worked there? Is this your personal experience? I know a ton of people - my father included - who work for WalMart and love it. They are treated well. My dad LOVES his job and thinks its the best place he's ever worked. He's worked for Frtune 500 companies in high-powered positions, and he loves WalMart's garden Center best. So until you have a personal experience with WalMart, don't spread the nastiness about how they treat employees poorply.

Personally, from family members who work(ed) for Target, THEY treat employees badly. One family member's boss raped her in the store room and threatened her job if she said no. She's now pregnant with his child. Oh yes, Target's SO much better than WalMart. See... I can take one incident and say its the COMPANY thats bad when its merely poor management.


Now, sorry for the side track......
That poor customer -- what a shame she was treated that way. Ignorance can not and should not be a reason to disallow any service animal into a store.



I do not believe I was spreading any "nastiness" but I appreciate you taking it as that. I merely said one statement from which I've learned to be true through family members and friends, as you have done yourself in many more statements. That's great your father has had good experiences with Wal-Mart, that's unfortunate your family member had a bad experience with Target.

Chain stores, usually being individually owned, will most likely be different.
My store, we would be so excited seeing a service dog, especially a Pit Bull. However, there may be many stores that would frown upon a service dog of any type.


I was not comparing Wal Mart and Target as to how they treat their employees - I was using the fact that they have a Bully breed as their advertisement. Hence the reason I posted a photo of that particular dog after that statement.

[Pam]

Inquiring minds want to know:;) These things aren't always what they seem to be.

It seems strange that not once in the narrative does the writer state that the dog was clearly identified as a service dog.

Without proof in some form of documentation or obvious equipment, anyone could take a dog into a store and claim it's a service dog. How would a store manager be expected to know the difference?

Agreed. Service dogs that I have observed all wear vests. If there was no identification I would agree that the store manager would have the right to ask for the dog to be removed.

[mike001]

The only thing that came to my mind was that I wondered if this pitt bull was in a city where they are banned? Then the store manager would have been within her rights. :)

[caseysmom]

The only thing that came to my mind was that I wondered if this pitt bull was in a city where they are banned? Then the store manager would have been within her rights. :)

I doubt someone would have a pittie as their service dog in a city where they are banned...seems pretty unlikely.

[DrKym]

Even if the breed is banned in a city or a county, if the animal is a CERTIFIED service animal, the Federal Act takes precedence. Federal law supercedes all state and county and town laws Period.

[animal_rescue]

Even if the breed is banned in a city or a county, if the animal is a CERTIFIED service animal, the Federal Act takes precedence. Federal law supercedes all state and county and town laws Period.

Hmm I've always wondered about that. Thanks for letting us know!

[DrKym]

Your welcome.

Now that I have given you that info do I get rewarded with Maggie pics??

See I am shameless, I will beg for maggie pics on any thread :D

Kym

[Lady's Human]

Federal law does NOT always trump state law.

Little thing called the 10th amendment.

If it were so cut and dry a large % of USSC cases would never have been needed.

[DrKym]

Federal law does NOT always trump state law.

Little thing called the 10th amendment.

If it were so cut and dry a large % of USSC cases would never have been needed.
In this instance it does as it has been upheld by the supreme court several times over.

The ADA Service animal law will trump state and local laws even in regards to breed bans.

I am not knowledgable enough to know about police work etc but I do have many years of experience with this law, and the way it is seen and dealt with by the courts.

this is one link that is helpful and I will go through my data base for other court cases supporting this information.

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/animal.htm

[Lady's Human]

That comment was in reference to your blanket statement about federal law trumping state, county and local laws. In this case it may, but in many cases it doesn't.

[DrKym]

That comment was in reference to your blanket statement about federal law trumping state, county and local laws. In this case it may, but in many cases it doesn't.

I am sorry if it came off as a blanket statement LH, it was intended for reference to this thread only. I never meant it to be taken in reference to any other laws , as I said I am not knowledgable enough to speak on the Federal laws regarding USSC or police work or even health or welfare laws. Just this one. Please accept my apology if it came off as all encompassing comment.

[NicoleLJ]

Just so you all know in the States Service Dogs do not have to wear any identifying ID or equipment, they do not have to be certified and no business can asked to see ID on the Service Dog. A business can only legally ask 3 questions. Is that a Service Dog? Are you Disabled? What Tasks does your service animal perform? Here some links that may help to answer some of your questions:

http://www.acesinfo.org/questions.htm
http://www.deltasociety.org/home.htm
http://www.iaadp.org/index.html

Nicole & Sheena

[mike001]

Those laws might apply to US citizens but what about Canadian citizens?
There was an article published on another forum that the laws that are made for the US have nothing to do with Canadian laws. In Canada from what I understand, people have to get an accreditted dog with certification. The dog's vest has pockets with clear plastic so it isn't hard to slip your I.D. card inside. And what woman goes shopping without a purse...lol...? :)

[borzoimom]

Those laws might apply to US citizens but what about Canadian citizens?
There was an article published on another forum that the laws that are made for the US have nothing to do with Canadian laws. In Canada from what I understand, people have to get an accreditted dog with certification. The dog's vest has pockets with clear plastic so it isn't hard to slip your I.D. card inside. And what woman goes shopping without a purse...lol...? :)
They have to wear a tag here too. Also- although a vest is not required for a service dog- most do as it also contains information on the owner as well as required health certificates. Also therapy dogs as well. The vest carries the health certificate as well as their tag with their id avid, therapy dog title etc.
Since I havent trained a service dog in many years, the person had to have a service dog id card on their person. ... I sent out a email to a friend that has trained service dogs for years to see what are the current forms of id in addition to the tags.

[NicoleLJ]

In Canada the laws are behind the times. The individual Provinces are in control of the laws pertaining to Service dogs. The only type of Service Dog that is completely protected and given full access rights within the law in Canada are Guide Dogs for the Blind. We have no one governing body for Service dogs in Canada such as the ADA for The States. But just like the States Service Dogs can be Owner Trained and there is no law in Canada Stating they must be certified or carry ID. So all other Service dogs can be refused entry to any business and have been. It is up to the business weather the Service Dog can enter.

"The Canadian Provinces


The Canadian Provinces independently have their own laws that define the rights of disabled persons. Generally, there have been two approaches. Some provinces have a Blind Persons’ Rights Act. These define, fairly specifically, where the disabled person with a dog may go, important considerations in housing, what happens if these rights are violated, and any penalties associated with them. Trainers rights or requirements, licenses or fees, identification requirements, and injury to the dog may also be included. In this respect, some provinces have statutes that are quite similar to those found in the United States. The provinces that have taken this approach include Alberta, British Columbia, Labrador, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Ontario, and Quèbec. While this type of law was originally written to accommodate blind persons, a number of the provinces have broadened their scope through amendments that extend these rights to deaf or hearing impaired and disabled persons.

Another approach is seen in the Human Rights Acts. The Human Rights approach covers a broader issue of discrimination in a much wider section of society. For example, Manitoba includes in its law concern for discrimination in these categories:

(a) ancestry, including colour and perceived race;
(b) nationality or national origin;
(c) ethnic background or origin;
(d) religion or creed, or religious belief, religious association or religious activity;
(e) age;
(f) sex, including pregnancy, the possibility of pregnancy, or circumstances related to pregnancy;
(g) gender-determined characteristics or circumstances other than those included in clause (f);
(h) sexual orientation;
(i) marital or family status;
(j) source of income;
(k) political belief, political association or political activity;
(l) physical or mental disability or related characteristics or circumstances, including reliance on a dog guide or other animal assistant, a wheelchair, or any other remedial appliance or device.

Frequently, in the provinces that rely primarily on this approach, the word “dog” appears only in the definition section of the law. All provinces have a Human Rights Act, but the provinces using this approach to the exclusion of more specific laws for disabled persons, include Manitoba, New Brunswick, Northwest Territories, Prince Edward Island, Saskatchewan, and Yukon."


So as you can see until Canada has a unified standard like the ADA things will remain up to the provinces to decide. It has taken a long time for mobility assisant dogs to be accepted. Autism support dogs are still not accepted and do not share all teh same rigths as a guide dog. Many of us are trying to change this. Canada needs to continue to expaned in its learnign and accepting of all service dogs. Untill then only Guide dog users have complete and full access and rights across Canada.
Nicole

[NicoleLJ]

They have to wear a tag here too. Also- although a vest is not required for a service dog- most do as it also contains information on the owner as well as required health certificates. Also therapy dogs as well. The vest carries the health certificate as well as their tag with their id avid, therapy dog title etc.
Since I havent trained a service dog in many years, the person had to have a service dog id card on their person. ... I sent out a email to a friend that has trained service dogs for years to see what are the current forms of id in addition to the tags.

I am sorry Borziomom but you are wrong. Service Dogs in the States do not need tags and do not have to be Certfied.

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/animal.htm

"Q: How can I tell if an animal is really a service animal and not just a pet?

A: Some, but not all, service animals wear special collars and harnesses. Some, but not all, are licensed or certified and have identification papers. If you are not certain that an animal is a service animal, you may ask the person who has the animal if it is a service animal required because of a disability. However, an individual who is going to a restaurant or theater is not likely to be carrying documentation of his or her medical condition or disability. Therefore, such documentation generally may not be required as a condition for providing service to an individual accompanied by a service animal. Although a number of states have programs to certify service animals, you may not insist on proof of state certification before permitting the service animal to accompany the person with a disability."

Nicole

[borzoimom]

I am aware of that- I am telling you common practice, more the norm as stated in the above " most but not all.." ..

[NicoleLJ]

I know the norm but I am just showing that it is not a legal requirement and it is agianst the law for a business to require it to allow access.
Nicole

[mike001]

I am aware of that- I am telling you common practice, more the norm as stated in the above " most but not all.." ..


You are right about this borzoid. It is normal practice for dogs to have ID. As for Canada, they are discussing throwing Aces and ADP out the window as they seem to make up their own laws governing service dogs. Canadians do not abide by this. As for service dogs being accepted, if they are certified and have proper ID they are allowed access rights. Not just guide dogs, but assistance dogs for m.s or other similar disabilities, hearing dogs,etc. What is not recognized in Canada is owner trained dogs, Canada does not recognize PSD or PTS dogs as there is really no training facility for this. They are merely thought of as comfort dogs. But if you have proper documentation there is no trouble gaining access anywhere. I know of 2 epilepsy dogs( this was a natural trait), and 4 mobility dogs and I'm sure there are more. I guess each country has their own rules. In Europe any dog is welcomed anywhere, cafes, stores, shopping malls etc. Wish it were so in our part of the world. :)

[todd]

wow what a story

[NicoleLJ]

You are right about this borzoid. It is normal practice for dogs to have ID. As for Canada, they are discussing throwing Aces and ADP out the window as they seem to make up their own laws governing service dogs. Canadians do not abide by this. As for service dogs being accepted, if they are certified and have proper ID they are allowed access rights. Not just guide dogs, but assistance dogs for m.s or other similar disabilities, hearing dogs,etc. What is not recognized in Canada is owner trained dogs, Canada does not recognize PSD or PTS dogs as there is really no training facility for this. They are merely thought of as comfort dogs. But if you have proper documentation there is no trouble gaining access anywhere. I know of 2 epilepsy dogs( this was a natural trait), and 4 mobility dogs and I'm sure there are more. I guess each country has their own rules. In Europe any dog is welcomed anywhere, cafes, stores, shopping malls etc. Wish it were so in our part of the world. :)

There is so much in this that is funny. First of all ACES is American. lol And is a Non for profit Advocacy group that teaches law enforcement, hospitals and public businesses what the federal law is pertaining to Service Dogs and what should be done when they come in contact with a service dog and their handler. You should do some research before you make a blantant claim about something you know nothing about. LOL I will have to show Judi this thread(founder of ACES) she will find this truely laughable just like the other lies you tried to post about her on other forums. lol

Check your Canadian laws. I have told you on other forums to do this but you never do. I even give you the links to the laws and still you refuse to look. If you refuse to gain the knowledge then stop spreading lies. In Canada there is only One type of Service dog that is accepted and protected by the laws in all provinces. That is Guide Dogs. All teh provinces make up their own laws regaurding Service Dogs. And yes Owner Trained dogs are accepted. They have the same rights as all the other service dogs which is at teh discresion of the store or business. Most businesses luckily are very aware of the different types of Service dogs and as such allow them.

Hwo do I know about teh laws? I have a PSD. And there is finnally a PSD that has been certified in Canada by a trainer. There are many PSD's in Canada. And there is 2 training facilities in Canada now that train PSD's. One in fact is in Ontario. So next time you make another claim you know nothing about do your research. PLEASE. I am so sick of correcting you when you post crap ,like this on a forum. And agian to show how uneducated you are their is no such thing as a service dog called a PTS. PTS means Put To Sleep. GESH but thanks for the laugh.
Nicole

[NicoleLJ]

I just read something that I am VERY happy about. Here is the link(you might have to cut and paste:

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oATZRYKb6-lsPRnnCDs1jOkw17faTzp7s8bLrY_NeEodxr2YHu7ayoubavRA OSoMXNMmjc1Cy_b2Swd1CH4fQ-ngFu3eTTMRhII/AccessibilityDirectorateLetterOntarioBlankname.pdf

Notice Under the Ontario Human Rights Code it says "The law requires Access for both persons who require a guide/service dog due to a mental disability" meaning PSD's included. I have never seen this though it is dated 2005. I have only been learning about the Service dog laws for about 4 years so I still have a long way to go. Judi(my trainer) said it will never stop. Now remember this is Ontario. Each province governs itself when it comes to the Service dog laws. And notice that no mention of certifaction is required. Only a letter from a doctor(which I carry every where with me). WOW I was so excited to see this. Now if we can just get teh laws rewritten to have all service dogs mentioned instead of just guide dogs we will be all set. lol
Nicole & Sheena

[TamanduaGirl]

Just so you all know in the States Service Dogs do not have to wear any identifying ID or equipment, they do not have to be certified and no business can asked to see ID on the Service Dog. A business can only legally ask 3 questions. Is that a Service Dog? Are you Disabled? What Tasks does your service animal perform? Here some links that may help to answer some of your questions:

http://www.acesinfo.org/questions.htm
http://www.deltasociety.org/home.htm
http://www.iaadp.org/index.html

Nicole & Sheena
good I'm just reading this now and was going to post that if someone didn't

they only let her finish shopping because she refused to leave. Exceptions are for if the business has to make unreasonable acommedations, a giant breed dog or say full sized horse instead of a mini horse guide laying in the middle of an isle at a restaurant causing people to have to climb over or wait, Some people use large breeds but they are trained to "be small", or not being allowed to take a service dog into a petting zoo where it would scare the animals, behaved dog or not, causing a stampede over the little kids present, if it miss behaves. Claiming you or the customers might be scared or uncomfortable isn't good enough unless you litteraly have a phobia where you turn into a screaming crying ect person at the site of one, then maybe, otherwise anyone could keep all service animals out due to discomfort or the possibility of customers getting upset.

[DrKym]

Again I will reiterate,
No animal here is required to wear vest, collar Id tag, or identification of its Service, it is ENCOURAGED that the owners do so and if owner trained to have it certified, as traveling with a Service animal is easier and less time consuming. It is NOT necessary.

There are several bills being looked into to change and tighten up the law a bit, and maybe they will pass, maybe not.

Point is Nicole is correct and gave a few other websites I would have also given. After nearly 16 years in training and working with several types of Service animals, I must say I couldn't have explained it better myself.

Point of the original OP was that the dog was discriminated against the breed. That may be true but Wal-mart was still within their legal rights, the transaction was allowed to conclude.

The owner of the animal; we will presume was aware of responsibilities as a Service dog user. I say presume as she seems aware, if a bit misinformed of her "legal rights". None of which were infringed upon , unless there is a law that cutting a shopping trip short is now illegal.

On that note she could have also removed the animal shopped until she dropped and no harm done. She chose to try to make it about the breed and the breed only, and that is simple grandstanding.

Just my thoughts ,
kym

[DrKym]

good I'm just reading this now and was going to post that if someone didn't

they only let her finish shopping because she refused to leave. Exceptions are for if the business has to make unreasonable acommedations, a giant breed dog or say full sized horse instead of a mini horse guide laying in the middle of an isle at a restaurant causing people to have to climb over or wait, Some people use large breeds but they are trained to "be small", or not being allowed to take a service dog into a petting zoo where it would scare the animals, behaved dog or not, causing a stampede over the little kids present, if it miss behaves. Claiming you or the customers might be scared or uncomfortable isn't good enough unless you litteraly have a phobia where you turn into a screaming crying ect person at the site of one, then maybe, otherwise anyone could keep all service animals out due to discomfort or the possibility of customers getting upset.

Almost not quite, you can as another customer claim you are allergic, and also threaten to leave, in that scenario, the animal can also be asked to leave.

Your child may have a fear of dogs, if you had been seated first, and the Service animal is causing or will cause undue stress on another patron you can legally be refused service.

If the animal is in a movie theatre and causes a disturbance, barking ,whining, lying in a darkened aisle that may pose a risk to others , you can also be asked to remove the animal.


So actually yes if the other people are impacted in their experience at the merchants in a negative way then it doesn't matter if they are crying or hysterical, simply that they would be impacted negatively, and that if another patron would be asked to leave and was NOT disabled then it is legal to ask them to go. or to refuse service.

[NicoleLJ]

Almost not quite, you can as another customer claim you are allergic, and also threaten to leave, in that scenario, the animal can also be asked to leave.

Your child may have a fear of dogs, if you had been seated first, and the Service animal is causing or will cause undue stress on another patron you can legally be refused service.

If the animal is in a movie theatre and causes a disturbance, barking ,whining, lying in a darkened aisle that may pose a risk to others , you can also be asked to remove the animal.


So actually yes if the other people are impacted in their experience at the merchants in a negative way then it doesn't matter if they are crying or hysterical, simply that they would be impacted negatively, and that if another patron would be asked to leave and was NOT disabled then it is legal to ask them to go. or to refuse service.

Actually that is not quite true. In the case of allergy or fear then the business would first have to try and accomidate both parties. So say you are shopping in Walmart(fairly large store) and someone has a fear or allergy and complains. The store would first have to try and accomidate both parties. They could do this by asking the people to avoid each other, ask one to shop then the other, see if they can shop in different departments and so on. Now if the dog was causing a distrubance as you said they can be asked to be removed from the premisies. The trick is reasonable accomidation. Here is a link about that:

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/svcanimb.htm

"Allergies and fear of animals are generally not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to people with service animals."


Thanks for backing up my statements in the other posts. I am fairly new to the Service Dog laws of Canada and the States(only at it about 4 yrs, have had my servcie dog for 3 years now). But I have been lucky to be learning for one of the best ladies around about Service Dogs. Her name is Judi Bayly and she trained the first ever 911 dog and started ACES a non for profit Advacocy Group about Service dogs. Any time I have a question or I am unsure about anything I can go to her. She is a wealth of info and has to keep up with all the laws since she teaches Law enforcment, hospitals and so forth about them. The rare time she doesn't have the answer she then knows how to get it. So I am blessed that way. For anyone involved in Servcie Dogs at all in any way they should keep informed of the laws. Simply because we have to be examples for all Service dog teams.
Nicole

[DrKym]

Nicole ,
you are right in the reasonable accomodation, however bear in mind I was simplifying it for the sake of cutting the earlier threads argument short. Meaning the person doesn't have to be hysterical or crying etc.
Point was if the other patrons are impacted negatively, and if the patron who is impacting would be asked to leave IF they were NOT disabled, then, yes they can be asked to either remove the animal, or to be refused service.

I am thrilled to hear that you are blessed by a Service animal, and wish you both many years of mutal benefit and happiness!

[NicoleLJ]

I completely agree. Sometimes I forget I am talking to people who don't know a lot of the ins and outs of the Service Dog world(not meaning you) and forget to simplify things. LOL. I get set in one midset and forget. lol

Thanks. I am blessed to have her and she has given me a life i never thought I could have.
Nicole

[CathyBogart]

I just wanted to throw in here that I got to walk with a seeing eye dog last week and it was a real eye-opener (pun acknowledged. :p). This dog was amazing, and the way he navigated me, a total stranger to being "blind" or using a seeing eye dog, around a room was incredible. I am so in awe of the folks who train these dogs, as well as the people who build the relationship and the trust to rely on ANY service dog, not just a guide dog.

Even for an animal lover like me it was scary to let myself depend on the dog, even for a few seconds. I don't know if I'm strong enough or trusting enough to do that every day. :)

[Cataholic]

NicoleLJ, thanks for some wonderful links! I really learned alot.

[NicoleLJ]

No problem. I have a ton more. For obvious reasons I am very passionate about Service Dogs.
Nicole

[mike001]

Again I will reiterate,
No animal here is required to wear vest, collar Id tag, or identification of its Service, it is ENCOURAGED that the owners do so and if owner trained to have it certified, as traveling with a Service animal is easier and less time consuming. It is NOT necessary.

There are several bills being looked into to change and tighten up the law a bit, and maybe they will pass, maybe not.

Point is Nicole is correct and gave a few other websites I would have also given. After nearly 16 years in training and working with several types of Service animals, I must say I couldn't have explained it better myself.

Point of the original OP was that the dog was discriminated against the breed. That may be true but Wal-mart was still within their legal rights, the transaction was allowed to conclude.

The owner of the animal; we will presume was aware of responsibilities as a Service dog user. I say presume as she seems aware, if a bit misinformed of her "legal rights". None of which were infringed upon , unless there is a law that cutting a shopping trip short is now illegal.

On that note she could have also removed the animal shopped until she dropped and no harm done. She chose to try to make it about the breed and the breed only, and that is simple grandstanding.

Just my thoughts ,
kym


Dr Goodnow, you live in the outer portion of the universe...lol...Unfortunately most of us have to live in the inner portion. But I agree with the US. not having to dress their dogs in some states. Where we are from, we are asked to have proper ID and certification for our SD's. The reason things are getting so strict is because of impersonations of SD's. We don"t have to have a full vest in the heat of summer but the tag is mandatory in our city. I don't really know why the woman was pushing the issue of her service dog, maybe it was to grandstand. Most people fear pitts and Wal-mart would be responsible for any accident, but it seems the matter was settled without too much trouble. This is the whole point of ID and certification, no one can argue with you. Around here we have no access problems because of stricter laws I guess. I was just sent a link from a breeder about people being able to purchase service dog equipment on the internet, I wish I would have saved it.
How reputable is that of a company to offer something like this? I consider it totally innapropriate. You get your tag and vest from your training facility when you graduate. :)

[NicoleLJ]

Dr Goodnow, you live in the outer portion of the universe...lol...Unfortunately most of us have to live in the inner portion. But I agree with the US. not having to dress their dogs in some states. Where we are from, we are asked to have proper ID and certification for our SD's. The reason things are getting so strict is because of impersonations of SD's. We don"t have to have a full vest in the heat of summer but the tag is mandatory in our city. I don't really know why the woman was pushing the issue of her service dog, maybe it was to grandstand. Most people fear pitts and Wal-mart would be responsible for any accident, but it seems the matter was settled without too much trouble. This is the whole point of ID and certification, no one can argue with you. Around here we have no access problems because of stricter laws I guess. I was just sent a link from a breeder about people being able to purchase service dog equipment on the internet, I wish I would have saved it.
How reputable is that of a company to offer something like this? I consider it totally innapropriate. You get your tag and vest from your training facility when you graduate. :)

Canada does not require certifaction or tags. Only a doctors note. If you look at my links you will see an official letter from a government official about it. And Service Dogs do not have to be from a facility they can be owner trained. Hence being able to purchase the equipment online. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Do your research please or provide proof to back up your claims. I did. I provided an official letter to back me up. Can you?

Just in case you missed the letter the first time here it is agian:

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oATZRYKb6-lsPRnnCDs1jOkw17faTzp7s8bLrY_NeEodxr2YHu7ayoubavRA OSoMXNMmjc1Cy_b2Swd1CH4fQ-ngFu3eTTMRhII/AccessibilityDirectorateLetterOntarioBlankname.pdf

It is from the Accessability Directorate of Ontario.
Nicole

[mike001]

There is so much in this that is funny. First of all ACES is American. lol And is a Non for profit Advocacy group that teaches law enforcement, hospitals and public businesses what the federal law is pertaining to Service Dogs and what should be done when they come in contact with a service dog and their handler. You should do some research before you make a blantant claim about something you know nothing about. LOL I will have to show Judi this thread(founder of ACES) she will find this truely laughable just like the other lies you tried to post about her on other forums. lol

Check your Canadian laws. I have told you on other forums to do this but you never do. I even give you the links to the laws and still you refuse to look. If you refuse to gain the knowledge then stop spreading lies. In Canada there is only One type of Service dog that is accepted and protected by the laws in all provinces. That is Guide Dogs. All teh provinces make up their own laws regaurding Service Dogs. And yes Owner Trained dogs are accepted. They have the same rights as all the other service dogs which is at teh discresion of the store or business. Most businesses luckily are very aware of the different types of Service dogs and as such allow them.

Hwo do I know about teh laws? I have a PSD. And there is finnally a PSD that has been certified in Canada by a trainer. There are many PSD's in Canada. And there is 2 training facilities in Canada now that train PSD's. One in fact is in Ontario. So next time you make another claim you know nothing about do your research. PLEASE. I am so sick of correcting you when you post crap ,like this on a forum. And agian to show how uneducated you are their is no such thing as a service dog called a PTS. PTS means Put To Sleep. GESH but thanks for the laugh.
Nicole


Nicole, you keep referring to me as someone you know. Could you stop developing paranoid ideas when I post. I have no idea who you are, and I don't do other forums except for service dog forums. as for Aces, I know who they are and where they originate.
Just so you don't make the same mistake twice, when I posted PTS that's what I meant...as in post traumatic stress. We were talking service dogs, not euthanization.
Could you refrain from the rudeness, it doesn't become the forum at all. No one put you in charge of correcting people so why do you do it, I'm here to learn also, so could you please ignore my posts if they offend you?

[Kfamr]

I just wanted to throw in here that I got to walk with a seeing eye dog last week and it was a real eye-opener (pun acknowledged. :p). This dog was amazing, and the way he navigated me, a total stranger to being "blind" or using a seeing eye dog, around a room was incredible. I am so in awe of the folks who train these dogs, as well as the people who build the relationship and the trust to rely on ANY service dog, not just a guide dog.

Even for an animal lover like me it was scary to let myself depend on the dog, even for a few seconds. I don't know if I'm strong enough or trusting enough to do that every day. :)


That sounds SO neat! I would absolutely love to have an experience like that.

[NicoleLJ]

Nicole, you keep referring to me as someone you know. Could you stop developing paranoid ideas when I post. I have no idea who you are, and I don't do other forums except for service dog forums. as for Aces, I know who they are and where they originate.
Just so you don't make the same mistake twice, when I posted PTS that's what I meant...as in post traumatic stress. We were talking service dogs, not euthanization.
Could you refrain from the rudeness, it doesn't become the forum at all. No one put you in charge of correcting people so why do you do it, I'm here to learn also, so could you please ignore my posts if they offend you?

I know who you are and you have said all these lies before. AS for ACES you only know what you make up. As for being pariniod I am not parinion when it comes to you since I know who you are and what you always do. You always say the same things, post the same falsehoods all to discredit people that you don't know. it is sad really. As for PTS it is called PTSD. Post Tramatic Stress Disorder. I should know. It is one of my disabilities. And PSD's are what the service dogs are called for people that have PTSD. Please research.

And yet you still have not mentioned the corrections I made to your statements. The proof I provided when you have only post falsehoods with no proof. Why am I rude to you? because I am sick of the falsehoods you continually spread and post on many forums. That is why. Stop posting false statements and provide proof to your claims and then it can stop. But when you are posting info that is lies and false about a Non for profit(if you know it so well why did you say it was in Canada when it is in fact in the States) or (saying they make up their own laws when in fact they teach law enforcement and businesses about teh ADA, which I can back up). If you know the laws so well for Canada then explain the official letter I posted? Which goes aggianst all you have said. Provide proof. But then agian you never did on the other forums. You kept post falsehoods and never backed it up.
Nicole

[DrKym]

Dr Goodnow, you live in the outer portion of the universe...lol...Unfortunately most of us have to live in the inner portion. But I agree with the US. not having to dress their dogs in some states. Where we are from, we are asked to have proper ID and certification for our SD's. The reason things are getting so strict is because of impersonations of SD's. We don"t have to have a full vest in the heat of summer but the tag is mandatory in our city. I don't really know why the woman was pushing the issue of her service dog, maybe it was to grandstand. Most people fear pitts and Wal-mart would be responsible for any accident, but it seems the matter was settled without too much trouble. This is the whole point of ID and certification, no one can argue with you. Around here we have no access problems because of stricter laws I guess. I was just sent a link from a breeder about people being able to purchase service dog equipment on the internet, I wish I would have saved it.
How reputable is that of a company to offer something like this? I consider it totally innapropriate. You get your tag and vest from your training facility when you graduate. :)


It is not mandatory in ANY state to have to wear any form of ID.

If it is a town ordinance then that is easily overcome by the ADA act of 1990, in all portions of the USA. No Service animal is REQUIRED to wear one, it is however encouraged.


So the laws are the same in both the inner and outer portions of this USA universe.

[Lady's Human]

Could you guys either take this to PM or ignore each other?

[NicoleLJ]

Could you guys either take this to PM or ignore each other?

I usually ignore her. But the problem is when someone posts false info about a non for profit or about the laws then the public is being misinformed. And this can be a huge problem. That is why I have to post teh correct info with links of course so people can check it out themselves. I am sorry this is bothering other people but spreading false info about Service Dog laws and so forth can cause a lot of problems when it comes to access.
Nicole

[mike001]

It is not mandatory in ANY state to have to wear any form of ID.

If it is a town ordinance then that is easily overcome by the ADA act of 1990, in all portions of the USA. No Service animal is REQUIRED to wear one, it is however encouraged.


So the laws are the same in both the inner and outer portions of this USA universe.


Dr. Goodnow---just to clarify, we don't have states, we have provinces and the US laws don't apply to us

[DrKym]

Dr. Goodnow---just to clarify, we don't have states, we have provinces and the US laws don't apply to us

Then please do not try to apply the ADA laws which are for the states to Canada, my sister lives in Alberta Calgary, and after a few calls around there , they are required to have only a Drs note, it is not required there either for the animal to have tags or other identification on the animal. As I know nothing about the Canadian laws, I will field all questions about that to Nicole who is rather learned about them and has much more accurate information pertaining to Canada, than I do.

[mike001]

Borzoid ---Just to get off topic here, I've been wanting to ask you about your dogs. They are a hound breed so I figured with your experience you might be able to shed some light here.
My daughter is thinking of adopting a discarded Greyhound from a Greyhound rescue but we don't know much about them except that they love to be fawned upon and are great couch potatoes. True or False???? I told her she probably wouldn't be able to let it loose except in a fenced enclosure, but I'm not sure about that either. A friend who can help her get one was telling us this. I guess by now you've guessed my daughter wants to save a dog and wants a couch potatoe to fawn over. Any suggestions???? :)

[Kfamr]

Mike001, it would be more suitable if you questioned "borzoid" about their dogs in a thread about their dogs or in a PM.

[borzoimom]

Borzoid ---Just to get off topic here, I've been wanting to ask you about your dogs. They are a hound breed so I figured with your experience you might be able to shed some light here.
My daughter is thinking of adopting a discarded Greyhound from a Greyhound rescue but we don't know much about them except that they love to be fawned upon and are great couch potatoes. True or False???? I told her she probably wouldn't be able to let it loose except in a fenced enclosure, but I'm not sure about that either. A friend who can help her get one was telling us this. I guess by now you've guessed my daughter wants to save a dog and wants a couch potatoe to fawn over. Any suggestions???? :)
Open a post in dog breeds- more than happy to help.

[NicoleLJ]

Then please do not try to apply the ADA laws which are for the states to Canada, my sister lives in Alberta Calgary, and after a few calls around there , they are required to have only a Drs note, it is not required there either for the animal to have tags or other identification on the animal. As I know nothing about the Canadian laws, I will field all questions about that to Nicole who is rather learned about them and has much more accurate information pertaining to Canada, than I do.

Thanks so much. It has taken me a long time to learn what I have, and I still have a long way to go. But if I don't know the answer to any of your questions then I know I can find someone for you who does. This is an ever learning process.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

Then please do not try to apply the ADA laws which are for the states to Canada, my sister lives in Alberta Calgary, and after a few calls around there , they are required to have only a Drs note, it is not required there either for the animal to have tags or other identification on the animal. As I know nothing about the Canadian laws, I will field all questions about that to Nicole who is rather learned about them and has much more accurate information pertaining to Canada, than I do.
I heard that too all they have to have is a doctors note there. I am not versed on canadian laws in providences..

[DrKym]

Thanks so much. It has taken me a long time to learn what I have, and I still have a long way to go. But if I don't know the answer to any of your questions then I know I can find someone for you who does. This is an ever learning process.
Nicole
Nicole,
As I told you I can pretty much detail every single law.bill, court case and disposition here, but I am not anywhere capable of fielding Canadian laws. You are. I do not believe I have misinformed anyone and please correct me if I have. You have the research on those laws done, and I intend to pick your brain about them too! LOL
Hugs that baby for me and tell him Good Job!

[NicoleLJ]

Nicole,
As I told you I can pretty much detail every single law.bill, court case and disposition here, but I am not anywhere capable of fielding Canadian laws. You are. I do not believe I have misinformed anyone and please correct me if I have. You have the research on those laws done, and I intend to pick your brain about them too! LOL
Hugs that baby for me and tell him Good Job!

Nope you haven't posted any misinformation about Canadian laws. And if you can pick my brain I will certianly pick yours too. lol. If I ever travel to teh States I want to make sure I am well versed in the American Service Dog laws. That is the only reason I know the the little bit of info I do about the ADA. Judi has always told me the more I know the better informed I am and the easier it will be for me to handle situations. So I try to learn as much as I can when I see the oportunities arise.

Nicole

[mike001]

I was just reading an article in the Tribunal I think it was. The reason for such a fuss being made at Wal-Mart about the pittie who was supposed to be a service dog, was because there were a lot of kids in the store at the time and the manager got worried. She apparently asked the woman for proof that her dog was a service dog and the woman refused and started a fuss, claiming her dog's "rights" The manager only wanted reassurance that the dog was indeed trained and safe, but the woman adamantly refused.
If someone asked me for proof I wouldn't hesitate showing it. But our dogs wear a red and black tag, so the proof would be there. I think there is always two sides to every story.
Sorry I didn't get any "links" or anything, but this was in the news that I get on the net. :)

[lvpets2002]

:) Thank you & thats what I said too.. There is always two sides to a story.. See I wondered why the dog did not have a collar or jacket on stating this.. The Wal-Mart I go too there is a guy every Saturday in there with his dog with a labeled jacket.. Your right why didnt the woman just show proof?? Because she just wanted to make a scene & which it worked..

[NicoleLJ]

There is no legal reason to have to show any proof in the States. Service dog in the States do not have to wear any identifying vests, harnesses or tags. They do not have to be certified. And asking for proof is actually agianst the law. Legally there are only 3 questions a business can ask a service dog handler. Is that a Service Animal, Are you Disabled and What tasks is you Service Dog trained to do? Those are the only things they can ask. Since not all Service dogs wear gear and not all are certified asking for proof is not a legal requirement for Access.

In Canada the only proof that can be requested is a Dr.s note. Not certifacation or tags.

I was not there in Walmart so I do not know the whole story. I am only posting what can legally be asked. If you would like links to this I will gladly post them.
Nicole

[mike001]

Nobody is talking about "legal" anything. Everyone knows the three "legal" questions stores can ask, so please could we do without the links.
If the woman wasn't looking for trouble and her dog was in fact a SD then she could have shown proof as a matter of courtesy.
Sounds to me like she was on some kind of bandwagon to attract attention from what I read.
Our dogs have a black and red tag so it's evident to all that they are in fact service dogs.
I would never attract attention to myself the way this woman did, I would have pulled out my ID.
I always am interested in both sides of a story, the one sided ones always leave questions in my mind.
This story sounded fishy and I guess it was. My opinion.

[beeniesmom]

I didn't know that they couldn't ask for proof.
I think they people should have to provide proof...
If stores don't ask for proof then I'll start bringing mine wherever I go...
Just kidding.

[critter crazy]

I didn't know that they couldn't ask for proof.
I think they people should have to provide proof...
If stores don't ask for proof then I'll start bringing mine wherever I go...
Just kidding.
That is a valid point! seems like proof should be necessary, other wise everybody would claim to have a Service dog, just so they could come in the stores!

[NicoleLJ]

Since not all Service dogs are certified or have 'tags" then one reason she didn't provide any could have been because she didn't have any. So Saying she should have provided it out of courtousy is ludicrous. You have no idea if she even had any to begin with and since legally she doesn't have to have any it does not matter if they asked for it. They can't legally ask for it.
Nicole

[NicoleLJ]

That is a valid point! seems like proof should be necessary, other wise everybody would claim to have a Service dog, just so they could come in the stores!

What should be and what is are two totally different points. Personally I think all Service Dogs should be Vested or harnessed. Sheena and I never go out into a business without her vest on. This is not just so people can see she is working but also so kids can see the difference and so can businesses. But this is an opinion only. The law is that they don't have to be. So what is and what should be is two totally different things.
Nicole

[NicoleLJ]

Also for those here who have not seen it this was all discussed in a very similar thread. All the legal points along with links to official info are in this thread:

http://www.petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=122240

Nicole

[mike001]

Yes and you'd be surprised at how many do. That's why we have to have tags for our dogs and if we put their cape on there are plastic windows on each side to slide your ID in. In my opinion if you have nothing to hide, why make a big deal out of "legal" mumbo jumbo. Owner trained dogs are not recognized in most parts of Canada and never in Quebec. PSYCH dogs are also not recognized for the simple reason that there are psychyatrists to work with these disabilities. Our dogs do have to pass an access rights test before being qualified. To each his own I guess, but I totally approve of asking for ID. Not any worse than being asked for ID to get in a bar. :)

[critter crazy]

What should be and what is are two totally different points. Personally I think all Service Dogs should be Vested or harnessed. Sheena and I never go out into a business without her vest on. This is not just so people can see she is working but also so kids can see the difference and so can businesses. But this is an opinion only. The law is that they don't have to be. So what is and what should be is two totally different things.
Nicole
all I was trying to say, is maybe they should change the laws! I know the difference between what is and what should be!

[NicoleLJ]

OK Mike I am sooo sick of you posting false information and never backing it up. People she did th esame thing in the other thread and was proven false there to. Go look at teh other thread to see.

Psychiatric Service Dogs (PSD, what my Sheena is) are now starting to be recognized in Canada. The first PSD has been officially certified by a trainer and there are two training facilities in Canada for PSD. For PROOF read this letter from the Accessability Directorate of Ontario

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oATZRYKb6-lsPRnnCDs1jOkw17faTzp7s8bLrY_NeEodxr2YHu7ayoubavRA OSoMXNMmjc1Cy_b2Swd1CH4fQ-ngFu3eTTMRhII/AccessibilityDirectorateLetterOntarioBlankname.pdf

Canada does not require certifaction or tags. Only a doctors note. Says so right in the letter. Also says Service Dog s for Mental Disabilities have as much rights as all ht eothers. And Service Dogs do not have to be from a facility they can be owner trained. Which is why only a doctor or nurses note is required. Do your research please or provide proof to back up your claims. I did. I provided an official letter to back me up. Can you? I am sick of your lies and posting lies about the laws. It is people like you that make access harder for people who have Servcie dogs.
Nicole

[mike001]

GEEEESH----I don't care what the laws are where you are. In Canada each town, city or district pass their own by-laws. Please stop with the legal mumbo jumbo. I don't go around collecting data or links to prove stuff. I'm here to discuss things. You aren't giving mental illnesses a very fair chance with your rudeness.
I was chatting with other members about what we believed should be. No one asked for legalities or referees.
Do me a favor and bypass my posts when I am discussing with other members

[NicoleLJ]

You were stating things as law. And sorry but you are wrong. Each town or city does not make up their own requirements for Service dog laws. The Provinces do. Each province is different. If you had said "well I think it should be this way" in stead of saying it like "It is this way" tehn that would be different. But you didn't. You posted it as fact. You posted about PSD's as if you knew fact about them when I have shwon proof that you don't. Proof that I have shown you many many times. Stop saying things about service dogs and the laws as fact and I will stop correcting you. Until then I will continue to make sure people get the proper facts and proof to back it up so that everyone knows the true legal aspect of it.

As for my disability you have no right to use that as a part of this conversation. Just because your constant lies make me mad and your constant posting about falsehoods about laws and non for profits upsets me has nothing to do with my disability and how it looks to others. If they had any idea of how long i have been dealing with you and your posting of false info on forums they would know why I am so sick of it.
Nicole

[critter crazy]

Cant you two just leave eachother alone??? this is getting quite old! put eachother on Ignore, and be done with it!

[NicoleLJ]

I usually do ignore her. But I do have to correct her when she posts falsehoods about Service dog laws because the things she says and posts could affect someones access. She posts things as laws and facts when in fact they are not. If she stopped doing that then I would ignroe it. But since I am a member of the Service dog community and I know how hard things can be when miss information is spread I have to make sure the proper infomation is out there. Sorry if it is a problem. Trust me. Her posting of false information is a real problem for me and others.
Nicole

[mike001]

I said nothing about your disability, I referred to mental illness in general. You are the one pointing it out yourself.
As I said, no one appointed you to correct anything posted here, so why take it upon yourself to do so.
Since you are so set on links, here's one I think you should read, it's from the california laws in the US
http://www.dogbiteslaw.com/PAGES/blind,htm


I would like to apologize to the other members for having to see stuff like this on the forum.

[NicoleLJ]

I said nothing about your disability, I referred to mental illness in general. You are the one pointing it out yourself.
As I said, no one appointed you to correct anything posted here, so why take it upon yourself to do so.
Since you are so set on links, here's one I think you should read, it's from the california laws in the US
http://www.dogbiteslaw.com/PAGES/blind,htm


I would like to apologize to the other members for having to see stuff like this on the forum.

I thought you were talking about Canadian law? That is waht you are posting about and now you are posting a link to a dog bite law page in the States? What does that have to do with the ADA and Canadian laws about Service dogs? You sure like to change the subject when you can't back yourself up.
Nicole

[DrKym]

I said nothing about your disability, I referred to mental illness in general. You are the one pointing it out yourself.
As I said, no one appointed you to correct anything posted here, so why take it upon yourself to do so.
Since you are so set on links, here's one I think you should read, it's from the california laws in the US
http://www.dogbiteslaw.com/PAGES/blind,htm


I would like to apologize to the other members for having to see stuff like this on the forum.
In what manner does this link even remotely tie into the wal mart incident??

[Karen]

I merged these two threads, as the second "wal-mart incident" thread really is just part of this same thread/thought, and that way people didn't have to post the same thing over and over.

[NicoleLJ]

Thanks so much Karen. Sure makes things easier for me. My hands were getting tired. lol
Nicole

[mike001]

You didn't click in the right link...it is about service dogs. Try googling it or maybe you prefer not reading it. That's why I don't bother with links.

[NicoleLJ]

You didn't click in the right link...it is about service dogs. Try googling it or maybe you prefer not reading it. That's why I don't bother with links.

You posted the link. You are the one responsible to make sure we are taken to the right page because you are the one trying to prove your point. That link takes us to a page that is titled Dogsbitelaw.com. What does that have to do with the discussion at hand? It has nothing to do with not wanting to see it. If that was the case we wouldn't know where the links take us.
Nicole

[mike001]

Let sleeping dogs lie. When I tried all your links I always got...this page cannot be displayed.
Don't stress your brain over nothing.

[NicoleLJ]

Let sleeping dogs lie. When I tried all your links I always got...this page cannot be displayed.
Don't stress your brain over nothing.

Sorry but the things you have posted about Service Dogs and the false information about the laws and regulations is definately not NOTHING to me.
Nicole

[mike001]

Ho HUM....zzzzzzz

[DrKym]

Ho HUM....zzzzzzz


Mike I am asking nicely and once, that when you are proven wrong in many areas on the same thread to be an adult ....refrain from such disrespectful replies in order to bump your thread.
And in the name of maturity, admit you are wrong or ill informed, learn a little something and go on with your life. Wiser and better informed.

This isn't the first thread that your behaviour has shown badly against you and I am certain it won't be the last. Alas I am sure we will hear more of your posturing and your ranting and your ill placed righteousness. However it is entertaining, so I will induldge you , your next petty response.

[mike001]

I was discussing with someone else when someone disrespectfully cut in. I think someone else should grow up also. I have never in my life met someone so arrogant and passive aggressive. I have asked her politely to ignore my posts, which for some reason she refuses to do. I repeat, where I live our dogs are certified and wear a black and red tag. If I am following our laws I don't much care what others do in regards to their laws. I am Canadian citizen, not an American. Each state handles their laws in ways they see fit.

[NicoleLJ]

I was discussing with someone else when someone disrespectfully cut in. I think someone else should grow up also. I have never in my life met someone so arrogant and passive aggressive. I have asked her politely to ignore my posts, which for some reason she refuses to do. I repeat, where I live our dogs are certified and wear a black and red tag. If I am following our laws I don't much care what others do in regards to their laws. I am Canadian citizen, not an American. Each state handles their laws in ways they see fit.

This is a blantant attack at me and is totally uncalled for. AS YOU ALREADY KNOW I am Canadian. You have know that for a very long time. So don't play stupid. And I have as much right to post in threads as you do. Usually I ignore you. But when you post false information and lies about Service dogs, the laws pertaingin to them and also Non For Profit Agencies I have to step in and make sure your lies are corrected so that the public knows what the true laws are. IN CANADA Service Dogs do not have to wear tags! They DO NOT have to be Certified. They DO NOT have to be vested. You only have to have a Doctor or nurses note. That is all. The false info you have posted and refuse to learn the truth about can cause many service dog users Access Problems. Agian I ask you(actually no I plead with you) DO YOUR RESEARCH.
Nicole

[critter crazy]

is there any way you two could take this to PM's?? this is getting old!

[NicoleLJ]

is there any way you two could take this to PM's?? this is getting old!

As long as she keeps publicly posting the false info about Service dogs and the laws I can't take it to PM because then people would see her false info but not the truth. So as long as she keeps refusing to see the truth and keeps posting the false info I will have to keep correcting her. I apologize that this looks bad but I am a Service Dog user and I know how much misinformation can hurt Service Dog users and cause huge access problems.
Nicole

[critter crazy]

all i see is you guys talikng about the same thing over and over again! This should be called the mike and Nicole argument thread! We all get it already! he was wrong you were right, enough!

[Karen]

I am closing this thread, as everything that needs to be said obviously has been. Peace, folks.