Pomeranians

[TFTpwnsYou]

This might be a dumb question, but I've been meaning to ask it for a while. Why is it that Poms you see in dog shows and Poms that are not literally look different? I'm just wondering cause it seems like Poms in the shows are smaller, more compact, and have a fluffier coat. The one's I see that people own normally have a longer body and snout, look bigger, and have a longer more silky looking coat. Just wondering why such a difference?

[borzoimom]

This might be a dumb question, but I've been meaning to ask it for a while. Why is it that Poms you see in dog shows and Poms that are not literally look different? I'm just wondering cause it seems like Poms in the shows are smaller, more compact, and have a fluffier coat. The one's I see that people own normally have a longer body and snout, look bigger, and have a longer more silky looking coat. Just wondering why such a difference?
Poms in the shows are more correct. Usually smaller and compact- yes you are right. Also- The coat is more correct with undercoat and top coat the same length giving a fuller impression. However- as in some breeds- a females coat will lay down more as in heat cycles they can blow their undercoat- but still not so much to change the impression.
MOst of the pet poms I have met are way too big- more like how the dog was before they dwarfed the dog. Poms use to be much bigger than a the show poms you see today. Also the same reason goes hand in hand with more needed C sections for the breed to whelp...

[TFTpwnsYou]

Thank you. I've been wondering that for quite some time now. I know they're Poms, but they don't look like the show Poms. That explains it though.

[borzoimom]

Thank you. I've been wondering that for quite some time now. I know they're Poms, but they don't look like the show Poms. That explains it though.
Probably what you are seeing is what is now considered to be " pet quality" poms not bred to show, and therefore not sized down as the show poms. And the wrong coat can change the impression of a dog ALOT!

[lute]

i have a good example of a "pet quality" pom. My Beanie is no where close to what the breed standard calls for.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/BeanieGracie/new%20camera%20pics/DSC00090.jpg

[borzoimom]

but still absolutely adorable!!! lol Thanks lute for posting a picture- that should help her alot!

[TFTpwnsYou]

Yes lute, that is a very good example of what I'm talking about. Beanie is so pretty though. Personally I do think the pet quality Poms look better than the show Poms. I like a longer less puffy coat on a dog. lol. I just never knew why they looked so different.

[lizbud]

My neighbors have 3 gorgeous Poms. They would fit right in with any
show dogs. Maybe they are the exceptions from what you have seen.

[Kalei]

Haha ditto to what Borzoimom said:D

[buttercup132]

The breeding and grooming is what makes them different.

[borzoimom]

Well grooming is a little bit- but really the proper coat is equal length top and undercoat to make the coat stand up. You cant make a coat stand up that isnt there to start with.. Show poms have a tight undercoat.

[TFTpwnsYou]

This is what I meant. Look at this Pom compared to lutes. Big difference.


http://i13.tinypic.com/4gta888.jpg

[borzoimom]

I love lutes little dog..
Now looking at the two photos- you will see the show pom has a very short back and stiffles. The coat is equal in length under and top coat. Stiffles, neck and back is much shorter.
And with lutes picture- that dog is probably healthier- less likely to have slipped patellas, etc.. And if bred- which of the two would be less likely to probably need a C section???? HANDS DOWN- ITS Lutes picture for sure!

[applesmom]

The question is:
Why is it that Poms you see in dog shows and Poms that are not literally look different?

The answer is: Pet poms like many other breeds are being mass produced by irresponsible "breeders" and purchased by uninformed pet owners who care nothing about the standard; just supply and demand.

[mike001]

I second that, plus everything Borzoid explained. Doesn't mean the show dogs are better. I think Lute's picture is adorable.

[finn's mom]

Most of the dogs you see in shows are perfect examples of the breed standard for show dogs. But, when you're talking about working dogs or pet dogs, it's usually a lot different. Even looking at labs or border collies, the difference is vast. They all have their pros and cons and they're all beautiful in different ways. It's not necessarily bad breeding that produces pet quality dogs, though. Some good, reputable breeders don't necessarily just breed dogs that will be in shows.

[TFTpwnsYou]

I second that, plus everything Borzoid explained. Doesn't mean the show dogs are better. I think Lute's picture is adorable.

I think it's adorable too. I think the pet Poms look better than the show Poms. They don't look like a cotton ball....lol. And as Borzoimom said they're probably better off as well.

[applesmom]

I second that, plus everything Borzoid explained. Doesn't mean the show dogs are better. I think Lute's picture is adorable.

Of course show dogs aren't any better than the pets-unless they're going to be shown or bred to perpetuate the breed standard. However the breed standards are being completely ignored for the sake of greed and the public's desire for purebreds.

Why even have a breed standard if the majority of the pet owning public doesn't know or care about it? :confused:

[Ginger's Mom]

But, I have a question...pardon my ignorance, but has the breed standard changed? By that I mean, I remember Poms being much bigger dogs. It has only been in the last say 15 years that they seem to have become pocket puppies. Did the standard call for a larger, sturdier dog at one time? I honestly don't know if it did or didn't, I am just asking.

[applesmom]

But, I have a question...pardon my ignorance, but has the breed standard changed? By that I mean, I remember Poms being much bigger dogs. It has only been in the last say 15 years that they seem to have become pocket puppies. Did the standard call for a larger, sturdier dog at one time? I honestly don't know if it did or didn't, I am just asking.

Since 1935 the weight requirement of the breed has remained the same; from 3 to 7 pounds.

[borzoimom]

But, I have a question...pardon my ignorance, but has the breed standard changed? By that I mean, I remember Poms being much bigger dogs. It has only been in the last say 15 years that they seem to have become pocket puppies. Did the standard call for a larger, sturdier dog at one time? I honestly don't know if it did or didn't, I am just asking.
They do change the standards, but I forgot when the last time it was they changed it. Could have been quite awhile ago. I will do some research and let you know.
They keep saying they are going to change the written standard in the Borzoi- the main reason is the height requirements. The current standards are now considered way too small and in 2010 the Silken Windhound will be added and the current standard that was reviewed shows a silken wildhound tops at the bottom of the Borzoi. They are trying to avoid the beagle situation that occured in 1957 when they seperated the sizes. You can have a 15 inch and a 13 inch in the same litter... We do not want that in the Borzoi.

[borzoimom]

Here is the beginning of the history- still looking for when it changed.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_(dog)

[borzoimom]

Here is another one- they are saying 1909... http://www.barkbytes.com/history/pomran.htm

[theterrierman]

The original Poms were a 30 lb. herding dog, similar to the German Spitz or Keeshond. My guess would be that most dogs you see come from backyard breeders or puppy mills, and represent dogs who have been refined less from the original stock, therefore you may have throwbacks to the original type. Also in mills, there is a possibility of an accidental mix, because different males could be housed in a cage with one female, or you could have a multiple-sire litter.

[applesmom]

The original 1916 parent club standard did not mention weight. That standard was revised in 1935 and still didn't mention weight.

The other revisions were in 1960, 1980 and 1991. The 1960 and 1980 revisions state; "Size - The weight of a Pomeranian for exhibition is 3 pounds to 7 pounds. The ideal size for show specimens is from 4 to 5 pounds."

The 1991 revision is the same: Size, Proportion, Substance - Size - The weight of the Pomeranian for exhibition is from three to seven pounds. The ideal size for show specimens is four to five pounds.

I found it interesting that the standard particularly states, "for show specimens"; which seems to indicate a that a fairly large disparity in breed size is pretty common--but they just can't be shown.

They also list major faults but no disqualifications.

These points lead one to believe that they must be a difficult breed to breed true!

[borzoimom]

The original 1916 parent club standard did not mention weight. That standard was revised in 1935 and still didn't mention weight.

The other revisions were in 1960, 1980 and 1991. The 1960 and 1980 revisions state; "Size - The weight of a Pomeranian for exhibition is 3 pounds to 7 pounds. The ideal size for show specimens is from 4 to 5 pounds."

The 1991 revision is the same: Size, Proportion, Substance - Size - The weight of the Pomeranian for exhibition is from three to seven pounds. The ideal size for show specimens is four to five pounds.

I found it interesting that the standard particularly states, "for show specimens"; which seems to indicate a that a fairly large disparity in breed size is pretty common--but they just can't be shown.

They also list major faults but no disqualifications.

These points lead one to believe that they must be a difficult breed to breed true!
Thank you applesmom- I knew there was a change in the standard in my lifetime, and could not find it to save my life!!! Thank you!

[Ginger's Mom]

Thanks, Borzoimom. I was just reading the link to AKC and I notice that the breed standard listed there was approved in December 1996 and put into effect January 31, 1997, but I have no idea what change that may have allowed for (it could have added another color coat or something). However, I also read the history and according to that even in the early 1900's most of the show dogs weighed under 6 pounds, so I guess it is just that I saw more backyard breeder dogs than actual show dogs.

ETA: Oops, thanks applesmom, I must have missed your post (while reading the other screen I guess) That does answer alot. Thank you.

[applesmom]

Here's what they added regarding size in 1997. "Any dog over or under the limits is objectionable. However, overall quality is to be favored over size."

Many of the breed clubs are finding themselves facing a similar dilemma regarding increasing heights.

Just like humans, dogs are becoming taller too! ;)

[borzoimom]

Here's what they added regarding size in 1997. "Any dog over or under the limits is objectionable. However, overall quality is to be favored over size."

Many of the breed clubs are finding themselves facing a similar dilemma regarding increasing heights.

Just like humans, dogs are becoming taller too! ;)
Borzois have for sure!! A small bitch is now below 32 inch- but read the standard.. Below 32 is considered very small, and males- its norm for over 33 inches- easily- but not health defects which I love. Alot of times when they want bigger, the heart or joints get sacrificed- not in the Borzoi..