Mr. Biggles is being put to sleep tomorrow

[king2005]

All Chad did was open the laundry door, as it was bed time & Mr. Biggles lundged at him & sunk his teeth into Chads whrist not letting go. Chad is bleeding pretty bad & his whrist is swollen. Chad is shaking like a leaf & scared to death of Mr. Biggles... Hes been around many dogs & had a dog all his life & was never bitten like that.

& yes I did end up telling Chad he bit me earlier. I sat down with him yesterday & told him.

& no Mr. Biggles wasn't wearing his anti-bark collar.

Mr. Biggles has snapped randomly at times but nothing like this. I was even at petsmart getting info on their dog training at lunch today for him, to help with the snapping.

But like I said earlier I will NOT tollerate an attack that was unprevoked (there has to be one hell of a good reason to attack)...

Whats sad is that Mr. Biggles had been cuddling with Chad all evening!

[BC_MoM]

I'm just going to say... I would NEVER go to PetSmart for advice. On anything.

Poor Mr. Biggles. :(

Give him a big bear hug for me, please.

[king2005]

I'm just going to say... I would NEVER go to PetSmart for advice. On anything.

Poor Mr. Biggles. :(

Not advice from a clerk, they have dog training at our location.

[DrKym]

I am very sorry things have turned out this way for you.

I wish you comfort and a hug, sometimes even the best of intentions go badly. I am glad that he knew love and had a champion in his corner, Jess sometimes all the love in the world cannot overcome the past. I think Mr. Biggles had true friend in you , and probably for the first time.

Godspeed to the RB where all will be well, and your suffering and emotional pain is gone Mr.B!

[CathyBogart]

Poor Biggles, and poor you and Chad. What a hard situation for everybody. :(

[critter crazy]

So Sad!!:(

[king2005]

I am very sorry things have turned out this way for you.

I wish you comfort and a hug, sometimes even the best of intentions go badly. I am glad that he knew love and had a champion in his corner, Jess sometimes all the love in the world cannot overcome the past. I think Mr. Biggles had true friend in you , and probably for the first time.

Godspeed to the RB where all will be well, and your suffering and emotional pain is gone Mr.B!


Thank You... I know he was difficult at times, but he was still a sweet cuddle bug. We had made soooooooo much progress with him & this really really sucks.

I can only wonder what his old owners had done to him. But saddly an agressive dog like him doesn't belong in a human society & its purely in his & our best interest for him to be put down.

Chad is still shaking & really really stressed. He doesn't want Mr. Biggles to die, but he knows its the best, cause what if it was a child?

[applesmom]

I'm truly sorry that you're the ones that have been forced to make this heartbreaking decision.

Mr Biggles should never have been re-homed in the first place. It seems that there is a never ending number of pet owners that let their dogs get away with unacceptable behavior for years. Then one day they've had enough and dump the dog in a shelter.

They're just ignorant enough to think that there are hundreds of wonderful doggie retirement homes lined up just waiting to take their older problem pets off their hands. They convince themselves that the dog will be "better off" and will live "happily ever after". It seldom works out that way! :mad:

[king2005]

I'm truly sorry that you're the ones that have been forced to make this heartbreaking decision.

Mr Biggles should never have been re-homed in the first place. It seems that there is a never ending number of pet owners that let their dogs get away with unacceptable behavior for years. Then one day they've had enough and dump the dog in a shelter.

They're just ignorant enough to think that there are hundreds of wonderful doggie retirement homes lined up just waiting to take their older problem pets off their hands. They convince themselves that the dog will be "better off" and will live "happily ever after". It seldom works out that way! :mad:


I completely agree. Not only does the dog suffer, but the new owners aswell.

None of us have ever had to make this kind of choice & never thought we would have too. Its one thing to put a dog down when its really ill & suffering in pain... But Mr. Biggles is a healthy dog.

I've told Chad & Andrew to stay away from Mr. Biggles. I will deal with him 100%. I'll put him outside to pee & will handle him. Yes I have a fear of being bitten, but I'm now expecting it, so I can handle the situation MUCH better, without harming Mr. Biggles to gain control (Scruffing him is what I did tonight to safely gain control of him).

THIS JUST SUCKS!!!!!!!!

[Pawsitive Thinking]

Heart breaking for all concerned - :(

[sprokett]

awwwwww poor mr.biggles

[Pembroke_Corgi]

I can only wonder what his old owners had done to him. But saddly an agressive dog like him doesn't belong in a human society & its purely in his & our best interest for him to be put down.

Chad is still shaking & really really stressed. He doesn't want Mr. Biggles to die, but he knows its the best, cause what if it was a child?
Do you have any children? Because if you don't live with any, I don't see why this dog couldn't be kept away from them.

It sounds to me like Mr. Biggles might possibly be helped by professional trainers. Has he been seen by any? Has he seen a vet to make sure there isn't some underlying health issue?

I really don't see how it could ever be in a dog's best interest to kill it, unless it is really suffering and about to die already. You have an aggressive dog. I don't know, maybe this dog is really "beyond" any kind of help or training, but I doubt it.

[gemini9961]

I agree that some professional help might be in order for Mr. Biggles. I don't think it's fair to put him down because of this. IMO, it seems like you have given up on him. :(

[king2005]

I was trying to seek help for his snapping, something we all can handle until corrected. But this attack was BAD.. this just wasn't a bite, it was an attack. I'm sorry, but I have stated how I feel about dogs that attack before. There is NO place for them in a human society. I'm positive this wasn't his first attack either.

I've spoken to several people & they all feel the same way we do.

Keeping the dog away from children isn't going to help. HE'S ATTACKING US!! I'm not going to live in fear & the dog shouldn't have to go through feeling unwanted because of this attack.

Sometimes the best option is to have the dog destroyed, as it can never be trusted ever again. Trust is very important!! & there is none now.

If it was just a bite & release then ya, he wouldn't be destroyed as nipps & bites can be corrected & the dog can be trusted later on.. But NOT with an attack...

If your best friend mauld someone, would you still feel the same?? More then likely no, you'd more then likely would say the dog is helpless & its in everyones best interest to have it destroyed... Mr. Biggles is too small to be able to maul someone to death of Chad's size, but he damn well tried to maul Chad & Chad had to fight to get him off!

I'm sorry but he's being put down & do not try to put me down because my dog attacked someone & I feel its best to have him put down.. Its hard enough as it is!

Have you ever been attacked by a dog before?
Your never the same. Sometimes you have to think about people first.
I had to move Mr. Biggles last night after the attack & Chad saw him. Poor Chad screamed in fear & threw whatever he was holding & hit me with it. He ran into the office to get away & kept yelling to keep him away. Thats fair right??

[Pawsitive Thinking]

Ultimately he is your responsibility and it is your decision to make. I don't think you would consider this option if there was any other route

[JenBKR]

I'm so sorry Jess, I'm crying for you and Mr. Biggles. This can't have been an easy decision. ((((hugs))))

[king2005]

Ultimately he is your responsibility and it is your decision to make. I don't think you would consider this option if there was any other route

Its not fair that someone allowed their aggressive dog to go into unsuspecting hands. I refuse to do the same to someone else. If I return him to the shelter & say I'm returning him because he attacked someone, they'll have him PTS the second I hand him over. Atleast with me having him PTS, I can atleast be there for Mr. Biggles as he is PTS, as no matter what a dog shouldn't die alone.

[Daisy and Delilah]

After all I've heard in the last ten days about the situation at your house, this really doesn't surprise me at all. Two days ago, we heard of how insane Chad is and you need to find another place to live. Today, Chad is ok and Mr. Biggles is being put down because he attacked someone. The poor little guy is probably reacting from environmental conditions. I would probably attack too if I were in his position. :(

As someone said, have you taken him to the vet to be 100% sure there is nothing wrong with him? This would seem necessary to eliminate all possible causes.

These stories make me so sad I can barely type this. It seems like the little guy never had much of a chance. :( :( :( I'm sorry Mr. Biggles. :(

I have to say: please consider pet ownership more carefully before adopting again. Make sure you know all there is to know about the pet you're bringing home with you. Consider the pet's characteristics as well as the people' characteristics that the pet will be living with.

[Lori Jordan]

This is so very sad,I hate hearing any dog being PTS,I think any dog can be helped,My Bandit was a very aggressive dog,He nipped my hubby on more than one occasion,But i could not come down to putting him to sleep.He has his problems and so do we im just very against putting any animal down.If this is what you think is best fine,But do not let anyone influence you.There can be help for Mr Biggles!

[Muddy4paws]

Its a shame hes being put to sleep, It sounds to me that hes got some huge trust issues with both of you and having a unstable enviroment isn't helping at all.

He needs professional help and if you cant provide it for him I think you should find someone who can instead of ending his life, Fair enough you didnt know what issues he had when you took him on but now you do and now is the chance to pass him to someone with more experience than youself who can deal with his issues. I think having him put to sleep is the easy way out to be honest.

[Lori Jordan]

Its a shame hes being put to sleep, It sounds to me that hes got some huge trust issues with both of you and having a unstable enviroment isn't helping at all.

He needs professional help and if you cant provide it for him I think you should find someone who can instead of ending his life, Fair enough you didnt know what issues he had when you took him on but now you do and now is the chance to pass him to someone with more experience than youself who can deal with his issues. I think having him put to sleep is the easy way out to be honest.
I agree 100%

[king2005]

After all I've heard in the last ten days about the situation at your house, this really doesn't surprise me at all. Two days ago, we heard of how insane Chad is and you need to find another place to live. Today, Chad is ok and Mr. Biggles is being put down because he attacked someone. The poor little guy is probably reacting from environmental conditions. I would probably attack too if I were in his position. :(

As someone said, have you taken him to the vet to be 100% sure there is nothing wrong with him? This would seem necessary to eliminate all possible causes.

These stories make me so sad I can barely type this. It seems like the little guy never had much of a chance. :( :( :( I'm sorry Mr. Biggles. :(

I have to say: please consider pet ownership more carefully before adopting again. Make sure you know all there is to know about the pet you're bringing home with you. Consider the pet's characteristics as well as the people' characteristics that the pet will be living with.

Chad wasn't a problem in the house near the dogs. Its when he was out in the car with a certain person. That person kept setting him off. Chad yelled & said something horrible to me, so I faught back on the phone with him. He spazed & told me where to go. Then my Anxiety was set off.. thats when I don't do so well. Once again, this didn't happen at home, so how could it have effected the dogs?

I went home after wards, tended to the dogs & Chad went to his friends place. I had his friend talk to him & Chad is back on Effexor & completely normal.

Mr. Biggles has been nipping & snapping since we got him Not reason to put a dog down, as that can be corrected (was trying to do that) & the dog can be trusted after a little time. A dog cannot be trusted after an attack.

[king2005]

Its a shame hes being put to sleep, It sounds to me that hes got some huge trust issues with both of you and having a unstable enviroment isn't helping at all.

He needs professional help and if you cant provide it for him I think you should find someone who can instead of ending his life, Fair enough you didnt know what issues he had when you took him on but now you do and now is the chance to pass him to someone with more experience than youself who can deal with his issues. I think having him put to sleep is the easy way out to be honest.

We cannot just rehome him. He MUST be returned to the shelter. & not only that, but Bear HAS to go back with him... Since both dogs have been returned before, they both will be PTS... If I just return Mr. Biggles & tell him he attacked someone, he'll be PTS.

Lets see my options...
1. Loose both dogs & have them die alone
2. Return Mr. Biggles to them telling them he attacked someone & having him die alone in a scary place.
OR
3. Having him PTS with me there comforting him.

I still see 3 as being the best option. I don't care what he did, i can't just let him die alone, thats not right.

[Taz_Zoee]

I can't believe this is happening! :( If I'm not mistaken, Bear and Mr Biggles were VERY close, and that's why you adopted them together. Poor Bear is going to be so depressed. I would NEVER be able to do what you are doing, and honestly I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. One one hand I understand he attacked someone, but on the other I wouldn't be able to bring myself to put down a dog like that. Oh, I can't imagine the stress you are dealing with right now. :(
I'm sorry for you, Mr Biggles and Bear.

[Lori Jordan]

Chad wasn't a problem in the house near the dogs. Its when he was out in the car with a certain person. That person kept setting him off. Chad yelled & said something horrible to me, so I faught back on the phone with him. He spazed & told me where to go. Then my Anxiety was set off.. thats when I don't do so well. Once again, this didn't happen at home, so how could it have effected the dogs?

I went home after wards, tended to the dogs & Chad went to his friends place. I had his friend talk to him & Chad is back on Effexor & completely normal.

Mr. Biggles has been nipping & snapping since we got him Not reason to put a dog down, as that can be corrected (was trying to do that) & the dog can be trusted after a little time. A dog cannot be trusted after an attack.

Going to Pet Smart is not helping Mr Biggles,A confrentation does not need to happen in the home for a dog to react to,The tension is enough for them to react too,If i were you!i would be doing everything and anything to fix the problem,Giving up on him in a day is not a responsible pet owner,Im going to vent a bit....


I was watching Animal Cops last night and it made me so mad :mad: A dog came in off the streets after being abandoned(That sticks for life in there heads i dont care what anyone has to say about that)Anyways they were doing a temeperment test,She put that rubber hand in the food dish and pulled it away,The dog snapped offcourse(THE DOG HAD BEEN STARVED FOR HOWEVER LONG,WOULDNT YOU SNAP)Anyhow the dog was put to sleep because it was"Food Aggressive".With an appropriate trainer you could most likely fix his problems these people can read your animals minds and know what to look for,Giving up on him is not a option in my books,If that is what you are going to do,Please find someone a rescue of som sort where they can help him.

It is not a good feeling to be given up on,Me being there myself!In the future if you cannot deal what has been delt to you maybe you should not own dogs,As a dog owner i have been through this many times before and i have never came to putting any my animals to sleep!They got help and are 100% Different dogs today!I am not trying to be rude but seeing this is upsetting for any animal lover!

[areias]

I have to agree-can you not at least contact a behaviorist? See what their opinion is? Not like..petsmart training...but a certified canine behaviorist? He could be reacting to stress levels in the household...although the issues you talk about happened outside the home, he might be feeling the anxiety through you. There was a trigger-the dog did not "attack" without a trigger. A dog dosen't just walk up to someone and say hmm, i feel like biting them. If you can pinpoint the trigger-you can then take it from there. Did he bend over, open the washer towards the dog? Or was it specifically the door going into the laundry room and he jumped up and bit him? What was the circumstances surrounding the bite?

[Taz_Zoee]

I have read in other posts about something called Rescue Remedy, or something like that? And a special batch can be made specifically for your animal directly relating to their issues. I'm sorry, I do not know how to tell you to find it, but I think I was reading it in the cat section. I'm not sure if it's only for cats, or if it would even help an aggressive dog. If I'm not mistaken I believe the person who could get it is Craftlady. This is going to bother me all day. I will be racking my brain to think of solutions.
Is your mind made up? No turning back? :(

[mruffruff]

Others may not agree with your decision, but I can understand completely.

I rescued a dog several years ago who was pregnant. After she had her pups, she was attached to me. Eventually she became so jealous of anyone that came near me that she would bite without warning. I agonized for along time, discussed it with the vet and ended up sending her to the Bridge. It was the hardest decision I've made in a long time.

I hope Bear will be spared. She has come a long way since you got her.

[critter crazy]

Chad wasn't a problem in the house near the dogs. Its when he was out in the car with a certain person. That person kept setting him off. Chad yelled & said something horrible to me, so I faught back on the phone with him. He spazed & told me where to go. Then my Anxiety was set off.. thats when I don't do so well. Once again, this didn't happen at home, so how could it have effected the dogs?

I went home after wards, tended to the dogs & Chad went to his friends place. I had his friend talk to him & Chad is back on Effexor & completely normal.

Mr. Biggles has been nipping & snapping since we got him Not reason to put a dog down, as that can be corrected (was trying to do that) & the dog can be trusted after a little time. A dog cannot be trusted after an attack.
didnt you say, that the other day, when bear was stuck upstairs, that Chad drug Bear downstairs, and that is when you said you needed to find a new place???? sounds like it wasnt in the car to me, and that mr. Bigles saw this, and has become leary of chad, afraid he might do the same to Him.

[Lori Jordan]

Lacy bit me the other night,And it was my fault!Her and Molly went at it again,Jamie(my husband grabbed Molly off of Lacy and i went and grabbed Lacy,At this point Molly has scratches to her eye,Lacy to the back of her head and a bite to her mouth and chest,So that is your first reaction,And im sorry i do not believe in letting them fight it out they already have enough wounds,So i grabbed her and started taking her too the bedroom with me she bit my hand as soon as she realied what she was doing she let go quick,I realize these are two different situations.
I probably startled her which is all my fault i have to take them too classes now Because they need to learn to get along they both are not going anywhere!But i would never think of putting my Lacy down,Owning animals can be hard at times but you have to go with the flow.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

I fully realise that this topic is immotive and is going to cause quite a bit of controversy but maybe a look at the bigger picture might help. The poor kid is going through enough as it is

http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=121128&page=2

[king2005]

I have to agree-can you not at least contact a behaviorist? See what their opinion is? Not like..petsmart training...but a certified canine behaviorist? He could be reacting to stress levels in the household...although the issues you talk about happened outside the home, he might be feeling the anxiety through you. There was a trigger-the dog did not "attack" without a trigger. A dog dosen't just walk up to someone and say hmm, i feel like biting them. If you can pinpoint the trigger-you can then take it from there. Did he bend over, open the washer towards the dog? Or was it specifically the door going into the laundry room and he jumped up and bit him? What was the circumstances surrounding the bite?

This wasn't just a bite, this was an attack! Mr. Biggles had to be faught off of Chad's arm!

What if Mr. Biggles was the size of Bear. The damage would have been far worse, if the dog could not have been stopped before a human death. Would your feelings still be the same?

I know someone on PT was attacked by 2 Rotties (I think she said it was just the one who did the attacking, I could be wrong) pretty baddly. The poor lady will NEVER be the same mentally or physically. Was it then right to have those dogs PTS? or should they go to a specilest because of poor owners?
No they should be put to sleep before they hurt someone else, as a specilest, can't do mericals over night & regardless, the dogs can never be trusted ever again.

[caseysmom]

Well not to sound insensitive but mr. biggles is not a bear he is 12 pounds. That is exactly my bubba's weight. Bubba is snappy and bitey at times, guess what? I can just shove him away. Sorry but it seems a bit extreme to kill him over this.

[DrKym]

Jess asked in her original post, that no one make this harder, she knows how upsetting having any animal PTS is for all of us.

Right now if we cannot express how badly we feel for the people going through this, with sincerity, then we should all remember what we were taught as kids and what we have all taught our own,

If you cannot say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

This situation is tragic on many levels for many creatures 2 legged and four.

Jess, I truly hope you will find some comfort in the days ahead.
Hugs

[BC_MoM]

Sorry but it seems a bit extreme to kill him over this.

I agree. A professional trainer should be contacted - not the PetSmart's trainer.

[areias]

Here are some decent looking behaviorists in your area. The price is little compared to the life that would be spared.

http://www.animalbehaviour.ca/ab2/do.php?target=index
http://www.whoswalkingwho.net/behaviourconsults.html
http://www.crdogs.com/

And some other trainer resources...
http://www.canadogs.com/Need_a_Trainer.htm

Although you do not want just a "trainer" you want a certified animal behaviorist.

[king2005]

didnt you say, that the other day, when bear was stuck upstairs, that Chad drug Bear downstairs, and that is when you said you needed to find a new place???? sounds like it wasnt in the car to me, and that mr. Bigles saw this, and has become leary of chad, afraid he might do the same to Him.

That was 2 different things.. Chad got her down.. took him 15 mins, as he took breaks & praised her the whole way down... Mr. Biggles was out ona walk with Andrew, as he kept getting in the way (going under Chad's feet, when he was trying to convince her to come down with food)... I just made the post a quick one & broke up the 2 different topics... I was only implying that I had nothing else to report as I was going to leave.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

Is there anyone nearby who could help out maybe? Seems to me that a bit of practical help instead of criticism would solve the problem in the short term

[king2005]

Well not to sound insensitive but mr. biggles is not a bear he is 12 pounds. That is exactly my bubba's weight. Bubba is snappy and bitey at times, guess what? I can just shove him away. Sorry but it seems a bit extreme to kill him over this.

Did Bubba sink his teeth into you creating a 4" cut that bled all over the place, caused a lot of swelling & brusing & did you have to fight him off of you??

You can't just shove a dog off. + your not correcting the problem.. Your avoiding it! Thats prob what Mr. Biggles owners did & now look what happened??

[BC_MoM]

Did Bubba sink his teeth into you creating a 4" cut that bled all over the place, caused a lot of swelling & brusing & did you have to fight him off of you??

You can't just shove a dog off. + your not correcting the problem.. Your avoiding it! Thats prob what Mr. Biggles owners did & now look what happened??

You're avoiding the problem, too. Try consulting a behaviourlist before you go to this extreme.

[caseysmom]

Jess, obviously bubba is not as aggressive as mr. biggles, I have never considered his snappyness a big deal I just can't imagine a 12 pound dog leaving a 4inch cut, their mouths aren't even that big.

Dr. Goodnow, we are all entitled to our opinions, we love animals and this animal is going to die.

[king2005]

You people wern't there & haven't seen the amount of damage he did to Chad. Hes being PTS end of story!

If this was a just a bite the story would be different. but it wasn't!

[JenBKR]

Is there anyone nearby who could help out maybe? Seems to me that a bit of practical help instead of criticism would solve the problem in the short term

Agreed!

[areias]

Just saw the replies to my other post-yes, I would do the same thing for a big dog. I have always thought that a dog involved in an attack should not be put down (in most cases) and that the court should order the owner pay for rehabilitation for the dog. And yes, I have been bitten (attacked?) by a 90 lb lab. The dog would not let go of my arm. I triggered it by turning towards/at the dog, he was nervous and he surely did grab ahold of my arm. You know what? That dog is still with its family. They took the proper steps in rehabilitating the dog. No, change won't happen overnight, but it will start taking place sooner than you expect. I'm absolutely not trying to be mean, thats not my intention, I just hate to see any dog PTS. I know it's hard, and it's a difficult decision, but I urge you to at least contact a behaviorist before you do anything.

[king2005]

Jess, obviously bubba is not as aggressive as mr. biggles, I have never considered his snappyness a big deal I just can't imagine a 12 pound dog leaving a 4inch cut, their mouths aren't even that big.

Dr. Goodnow, we are all entitled to our opinions, we love animals and this animal is going to die.

Thats what I was trying to get across, it wasn't just a snap or a bite. Its very different from what your dog did. But I personally believe allowing a dog to snap or nip is asking for problems later on.

Mr. Biggels is the size of a JRT, he has a long snout & his K9's are further forward (his jaw is all screwed up & he has extra K9s in his mouth, which didn't help at all!)...

When I was trying to help Chad stop the bleeding, I never would believe him if he told me that Mr. Biggles attacked him with all the damage that was done. But I was there, so it was him.

[Taz_Zoee]

Ok, I guess it's final then. Goodbye Mr Biggles. :( Play hard at the bridge, tell DJ hello for us. Watch over Bear as well, and assist in her weight loss endeavor.
Good Luck, Jess (I'm guessing that's your name) with Bear, I hope all goes well with her. Give her hugs for me. :)

[BC_MoM]

You've had this dog not even a month. You're not even giving him a chance. How does it hurt you to wait a while and contact a behaviourlist?? You never should have adopted him if you weren't willing to help him with any problems that could (and did) come along.

[Lori Jordan]

You people wern't there & haven't seen the amount of damage he did to Chad. Hes being PTS end of story!

If this was a just a bite the story would be different. but it wasn't!


Well sounds to me Chad is not a very stable person,from your posts,Too bad Mr Biggles has to destroyed because of stupidity!As to the post dont say nothing at all i have been critisized of alot of things,And nothing has ever compared to what she is doing,She should not have got these dogs in the first place IMO,Mr Biggles does not deserve to be put down how do you know Chad didnt do something to him,If he can pull a scared dog down the stairs(stupid move)What else could he do?????Ask yourself that!

[Daisy and Delilah]

Jess asked in her original post, that no one make this harder, she knows how upsetting having any animal PTS is for all of us.

Right now if we cannot express how badly we feel for the people going through this, with sincerity, then we should all remember what we were taught as kids and what we have all taught our own,

If you cannot say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

This situation is tragic on many levels for many creatures 2 legged and four.

Jess, I truly hope you will find some comfort in the days ahead.
Hugs

I honestly respect everything you've said. It's not my nature to criticize anyone for the decisions they make. Sometimes things have to be done that we don't like and we accept it and go on. I think the big thing in this case is the fact that every detail of this adoption has been made public to all of us on this board. We are all aware of circumstances and conditions that may or may not have been condusive to pet ownership. We're all here because we love animals and we care what happens to them. We have many experts here that have many good solutions and lots of great advice. I just wish that this entire thing would have been looked at more closely to begin with, considering all factors. We would hope there is a better alternative for these two dogs in the long run. I sincerely hope that Jess(and Chad) can get some help for their problems. I have great concern for anyone in their shoes and I certainly don't mean to imply that I diminish or disrespect their medical conditions in any way.

All this said, please try to rehome these dogs to someone that's equipped to handle them. I know there must be a solution. I wish you the best and hope to hear some better news.

[caseysmom]

Thats what I was trying to get across, it wasn't just a snap or a bite. Its very different from what your dog did. But I personally believe allowing a dog to snap or nip is asking for problems later on.

Mr. Biggels is the size of a JRT, he has a long snout & his K9's are further forward (his jaw is all screwed up & he has extra K9s in his mouth, which didn't help at all!)...

When I was trying to help Chad stop the bleeding, I never would believe him if he told me that Mr. Biggles attacked him with all the damage that was done. But I was there, so it was him.

Jess, who said I allow this? I am not going to run and put him to sleep for gods sake. He only gets mad when I try to take food out of his mouth, he will steal food off a plate if you don't look, hardly a reason for me to euthanize for gods sake he is a dog and has dog behavior, you understand that and move on. bubba interacts with small children all the time and has never snapped, my point was even if he did get vicious I just don't see how he could leave a 4 inch cut.

[areias]

Is there anyone, anywhere, that could assist her in either placing this dog or helping her out? Does anyone know a trainer (maybe someones friend?) who would take him and work the problem out? Would you be willing to do that, Jess?

What were the circumstances leading to the attack? That would help a lot.

[caseysmom]

Well sounds to me Chad is not a very stable person,from your posts,Too bad Mr Biggles has to destroyed because of stupidity!As to the post dont say nothing at all i have been critisized of alot of things,And nothing has ever compared to what she is doing,She should not have got these dogs in the first place IMO,Mr Biggles does not deserve to be put down how do you know Chad didnt do something to him,If he can pull a scared dog down the stairs(stupid move)What else could he do?????Ask yourself that!

Exactly! dogs have no other way to say "leave me the hell alone!"

[king2005]

Just saw the replies to my other post-yes, I would do the same thing for a big dog. I have always thought that a dog involved in an attack should not be put down (in most cases) and that the court should order the owner pay for rehabilitation for the dog. And yes, I have been bitten (attacked?) by a 90 lb lab. The dog would not let go of my arm. I triggered it by turning towards/at the dog, he was nervous and he surely did grab ahold of my arm. You know what? That dog is still with its family. They took the proper steps in rehabilitating the dog. No, change won't happen overnight, but it will start taking place sooner than you expect. I'm absolutely not trying to be mean, thats not my intention, I just hate to see any dog PTS. I know it's hard, and it's a difficult decision, but I urge you to at least contact a behaviorist before you do anything.

What if he attacks again? or gets out & goes after someone else?

I'm not putting other people at risk, its not fair to other people. I've been there too many times & being traumatized isn't fair at all!!

Its not like I'm jumping in joy that I'm having him PTS. We rescued them cause they needed a 2ed chance (well its more then a 2ed, but we wanted to try at least, before they both were PTS at the shelter)

[BC_MoM]

I have a friend in Ontario who is amazing. However, I don't think Jess is the kind of person who is patient with things like this.

[king2005]

Jess, who said I allow this? I am not going to run and put him to sleep for gods sake. He only gets mad when I try to take food out of his mouth, he will steal food off a plate if you don't look, hardly a reason for me to euthanize for gods sake he is a dog and has dog behavior, you understand that and move on. bubba interacts with small children all the time and has never snapped, my point was even if he did get vicious I just don't see how he could leave a 4 inch cut.

the way you worded it, is that when he does it you just shove him away... sorry to assume.

He has a long mouth & Chad had to kick him off his arm, so his tooth went into Chad's arm & as he was being Kicked off his tooth dragged along 4" of skin. He bite down more the once & it was only the 1 tooth that drew all the blood.. the others left the swelling & bruses

[areias]

Pleading here, have you done any NILIF (nothing in life is free) training? That would be step #1. This can be solved. If it is solved, then no it won't happen again. I swear to god, I'd pay for you to ship him to me if there weren't children in this household.

[Daisy and Delilah]

Let me say one more thing Jess; you have put this entire story out there for everyone to read. If you didn't want responses, and now it seems you're getting angry, why did you make all of this public? You have asked for advice from everyone here and most everyone has given you help. We feel attached to these dogs ourselves. What do you expect? I hardly think you should get angry with anyone.

Don't forget.....when you first got bitten by Mr. Biggles, you decided to hide it from Chad. As I said before, now Chad is the good guy and Mr. Biggles has to be PTS. Forgive me if I am just very confused :confused:

[caseysmom]

I think you could find a jrt rescue group that would be happy to take him. Someone familiar with jrt's needs him, that breed definetely is a handful and it doesn't sound like your in a situation to deal with him right now, please call a rescue.

[Lori Jordan]

Jess, who said I allow this? I am not going to run and put him to sleep for gods sake. He only gets mad when I try to take food out of his mouth, he will steal food off a plate if you don't look, hardly a reason for me to euthanize for gods sake he is a dog and has dog behavior, you understand that and move on. bubba interacts with small children all the time and has never snapped, my point was even if he did get vicious I just don't see how he could leave a 4 inch cut.
Ok this is my last post and i'm moving on,Caseysmom,Good point!Your dog has never nipped a child,Ya know why?Dogs know who is good and bad they are the best judges of character,My Lacy hates Jamies friend Glen,Ya know why He will Play with Maggy and Molly,But when it comes to Lacy he always tells her to go laydown,Why i have no clue she has never done anything and i have told him many times to back off and not come around,Lacy will not give this man the time a day,She stays clear.

Dogs know whether you think it or not,Where you there?When he bit Chad??Dod you see or just walk into it? This dog has obviously had a hard life You got him from a shelter,The Shelter do not always know what kinds of backgrounds these dogs have had or had been delt with.

There is no reason why you cannot get this animal help,that is our job,As animal owners,I consider my guys as my children,And i would go all out to all extremes to get them help,And after everything is done and there has been no improvement then take the next step,Not putting them to sleep,There are millions of people that can help in any given situation,You are being very stubborn,These animals were put on this earth to be loved and cherised,Not to be beaten mistreated in any way NOR TO HAVE SOMEONES BACK TURNED ON THEM!

Instead you have totaly given up,Your just throwing your hands in the air,and washing them with it,If this is your desision,Then in Bears best intrest at heart you should find her a home,With the issues you are having at the moment i do not think you are capable of taking care of any animal,They are like kids sometimes there needs have to come before ours,Remeber they cannot speak and tell us what has happend,Animals deserve everything!

[Lori Jordan]

What if he attacks again? or gets out & goes after someone else?

I'm not putting other people at risk, its not fair to other people. I've been there too many times & being traumatized isn't fair at all!!

Its not like I'm jumping in joy that I'm having him PTS. We rescued them cause they needed a 2ed chance (well its more then a 2ed, but we wanted to try at least, before they both were PTS at the shelter)


A second chance is not supposed to lead to death,As i said before,DOGS KNOW WHO IS GOOD AND BAD!

[Pawsitive Thinking]

I have a friend in Ontario who is amazing. However, I don't think Jess is the kind of person who is patient with things like this.


Does your friend have any suggestions to get round this?

[BC_MoM]

I haven't spoken to her, but yes. She is a homeopathic woman and an amazing behaviourlist (but it isn't her career).

If Jess is interested, she can PM me. But I will not give her any information unless she is willing to work with Mr. Biggles. Sorry.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

I haven't spoken to her, but yes. She is a homeopathic woman and an amazing behaviourlist (but it isn't her career).

If Jess is interested, she can PM me. But I will not give her any information unless she is willing to work with Mr. Biggles. Sorry.

But this dog's life is at stake - if there is anything you can do to help I beg you to do it whether Jess asks or not

[BC_MoM]

I know. But what would be the point in giving her my friend's contact information if she wasn't even going to use it? She can either make the selfish choice of putting him to sleep, or she can act like someone who truly cares and ask AND USE the contact information.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

I know. But what would be the point in giving her my friend's contact information if she wasn't even going to use it?


worth a try

http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=121128

she's obviously all over the place at the moment

[kimlovescats]

Jess asked in her original post, that no one make this harder, she knows how upsetting having any animal PTS is for all of us.

Right now if we cannot express how badly we feel for the people going through this, with sincerity, then we should all remember what we were taught as kids and what we have all taught our own,

If you cannot say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

This situation is tragic on many levels for many creatures 2 legged and four.

Jess, I truly hope you will find some comfort in the days ahead.
Hugs

Well said!!!
Prayers to you, Jess, that you get through these difficult times in your life, and come out stronger from them!

Hugs,
Kim

[dukedogsmom]

All shelter dogs have histories. That's the chance we take when giving them a home. My Dasher has extreme separation anxiety. It's common in shelter dogs, I've learned. But I haven't given up on him. I've come here for help and talked to a dog trainer. I've done my research and learned that I needed to change my behavior on my reaction to the damage he caused. I've also learned things to do for him while at home to help him when I do leave. You don't know this dog's history. You haven't even given him a chance to settle in and get used to his surroundings. Adopted dogs need a very stable environment. Even more so than one that was gotten from a breeder or pet store. I'm not sure you and
Chad can provide that. Something tells me that Chad's behavior might be worse than what we know here. I think it would be in the best interest of both dogs to rehome them. But don't be so unfair to Mr. Biggles.

[borzoimom]

Its not fair that someone allowed their aggressive dog to go into unsuspecting hands. I refuse to do the same to someone else. If I return him to the shelter & say I'm returning him because he attacked someone, they'll have him PTS the second I hand him over. Atleast with me having him PTS, I can atleast be there for Mr. Biggles as he is PTS, as no matter what a dog shouldn't die alone.
You are absolutely right... And this is now the second bite- and this does sound like an attack since the dog hung on.. Against public opinion of the previous posts- I am afraid I agree there is no other choice. The bites are not getting less severe- they are getting worse..

[BC_MoM]

The bites are not getting less severe- they are getting worse..

Jess has done NOTHING to help this dog and his issues. Keep that in mind. She is avoiding the problem, not dealing with it. Mr. Biggles is not learning that this is unacceptable behaviour. He's learning he can get away with it.

[luvofallhorses]

I agree that some professional help might be in order for Mr. Biggles. I don't think it's fair to put him down because of this. IMO, it seems like you have given up on him. :(

sorry, but I agree. :(

[Pawsitive Thinking]

Please read her post in general before judging her too harshly - they need our help, her, Chad and the dogs

[Pam]

Perhaps I shouldn't even be posting because I haven't read prior threads about Mr. Biggles. Personally I could never keep a dog that attacked either myself or a family member. As a former vet once told me, "there are too many loving dogs languishing in shelters who will ultimately be PTS." In other words, why not give one of them a chance. This was his thinking on euthanizing a biting dog. It may sound simplistic but I sort of have to agree. In this particular case, it does seem to me like there is a lack of stability in the home environment. For that reason alone, I would suggest no more pets until the current situation changes.

[borzoimom]

Jess has done NOTHING to help this dog and his issues. Keep that in mind. She is avoiding the problem, not dealing with it. Mr. Biggles is not learning that this is unacceptable behaviour. He's learning he can get away with it.
I do not know- I am not there- but the dog hanging on with a bite is not good news.. A trainer or behaviorist could possibly help- or not- but all I can is what is typed- I cant see the situation- I cant see how the dogs acts normally etc.. Even if one visit with a trainer to see if this really is a full blown or more of a manageable problem.. I do not know..

[areias]

Please tell us, what happened before the dog attacked? We might be able to help you. The dog nipping you, and the dog attacking Chad could be two totally seperate issues. I can 95% guarantee that the dog used biting to get away from something. I call it a trigger...Chad did something that mr. biggles has experienced discomfort from before, and used his teeth.

Did you see the attack?

Has the dog seen the vet? Didn't you say somewhere that Mr. Biggles might be either hard of hearing or partially blind? I can't remember...

[Catlady711]

In the states home owners insurance policies can be cancelled if you have a known agressive dog. In the states also you can face personal lawsuits from a person bitten, whether friend or delivery person, and have to pay court costs, medical bils, and pain & suffering which can be very costly. And in most states there are dog bite laws that will have the biting dog PTS, particularly if it's not a first offence.

I took the liberty of looking up the Dog Owners Liability Act of Ontario (http://www.doglegislationcouncilcanada.org/dolaON.html) and found the following information...

(1) The owner of a dog is liable for damages resulting from a bite or attack by the dog on another person or domestic animal. R.S.O. 1990, c. D.16, s. 2 (1).

(3) The liability of the owner does not depend upon knowledge of the propensity of the dog or fault or negligence on the part of the owner, but the court shall reduce the damages awarded in proportion to the degree, if any, to which the fault or negligence of the plaintiff caused or contributed to the damages. R.S.O. 1990, c. D.16, s. 2 (3).

(3) If, in a proceeding under subsection (1), the court finds that the dog has bitten or attacked a person or domestic animal or that the dog’s behaviour is such that the dog is a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals, and the court is satisfied that an order is necessary for the protection of the public, the court may order,
(a) that the dog be destroyed in the manner specified in the order

5. When, in a proceeding under section 4, the court finds that the dog has bitten or attacked a person or domestic animal or that the dog’s behaviour is such that the dog is a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals, the court may make an order prohibiting the dog’s owner from owning another dog during a specified period of time. 2000, c. 26, Sched. A, s. 6; 2005, c. 2, s. 1 (14).

Proceedings against owner of dog
4. (1) A proceeding may be commenced in the Ontario Court of Justice against an owner of a dog if it is alleged that,
(a) the dog has bitten or attacked a person or domestic animal;
(b) the dog has behaved in a manner that poses a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals; or
(c) the owner did not exercise reasonable precautions to prevent the dog from,
(i) biting or attacking a person or domestic animal, or
(ii) behaving in a manner that poses a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals. 2005, c. 2, s. 1 (6).




And I HAVE to comment on this.....


I was watching Animal Cops last night and it made me so mad :mad: A dog came in off the streets after being abandoned(That sticks for life in there heads i dont care what anyone has to say about that)Anyways they were doing a temeperment test,She put that rubber hand in the food dish and pulled it away,The dog snapped offcourse(THE DOG HAD BEEN STARVED FOR HOWEVER LONG,WOULDNT YOU SNAP)Anyhow the dog was put to sleep because it was"Food Aggressive".With an appropriate trainer you could most likely fix his problems these people can read your animals minds and know what to look for,

They use the testing methods they do to simulate real life situations the dogs may encounter in a new home whether accidental or deliberate. I think it's far better they test them first rather than adopt out an animal that may attack or even kill someone without knowing what kind of temperment they have.


Not knowing which animal cops you were watching (New York, Huston, Detroit) however in all cases those places that take the animals in for treatment are ASPCA. Those places are basically funded by donations, not federal money. There is only so much money to save/treat x amount of animals. As we all know there are millions of homeless, abused, neglected, abandoned animals out there needing homes. There are only so many homes available for all these animals.

To spend the extra $$ to pay for special training for agressiveness, the additional food & medical care the dog would need in the meantime would cost alot! That money and time could be used to spend on probably saving FIVE other animals in more dire circumstances that are perfectly adoptable. The more adoptions, the more money comes in, AND opens up cage space for yet another animal to be saved. By keeping a known agressive animal, spending the money on training that may or may not work, jeopardizing the staff in the meantime with an agressive dog, and taking time, money and cage space, would put other animals that need help and are adoptable at risk of not being helped.

Sometimes you have to look at the numbers. Sometimes it's necessary to sacrifice a few to save many.

[king2005]

I'm getting PMs aswell, so my posts will reflect on them as well.

Before we adopted the dogs, we had to fill out a few sheets. 1 question was what will we NOT tollerate in a dog. We wrote in huge words AGRESSION towards people!! As we do NOT tollerate it! The nipping was bad enough, but that was improving, so we put up with it... Then came the bite... i didn't know what to do so I came here & asked for advice, got good advice (remember I also got a lot of PMs for that too), reason Mr. Biggles was still with us after that bite!!

Now he has attacked & here are the 3 options PT has given me & heres what I have already posted, but don't think anyone is hearing me.

PT options
1. Return to Shelter
2. Rehome
3. Behavourist

What I've been trying to explain
1. He'll be PTS alone with strangers
2. Can't as stated in the contract
3. Chad is scared to death of him (I can't keep Mr. Biggles locked up for the rest of his life), so he cannot stay

I need to extend # 3 a little. I have made other Posts about Chad. There are several reason we didn't want agressive dogs & heres the biggest reason. A bad bite can KILL CHAD!! He can easly get flesheatting again & his immune system isn't top knotch as his cancer effects it a little, so healing from major things isn't easy for him... A nip or a scratch doesn't bother him too much... Hes had dogs before & never had issues with them (as in effect to his illness). But this bite was pretty bad. We have to watch is so closely cause the first sign of infection he has to be rushed to the ER.

[borzoimom]

Please read her post in general before judging her too harshly - they need our help, her, Chad and the dogs
I agree..
King- I understand.. And as stated- with all the loving pets that would never bite that needs homes-.. This does sound like an attack to me as I said because the dog held on..

[luvofallhorses]

Did the shelter you adopted from have a contract about bringing him back for whatever reason? poor Mr. Biggles. :( we have a contract at the shelter where I volunteer that the animals must be brought back to us for any reason they cannot keep them anymore. sadly, we have had a few dogs come back to us because they have bitten. :(

[king2005]

Catlady711 thank you for that.

[king2005]

Did the shelter you adopted from have a contract about bringing him back for whatever reason? poor Mr. Biggles. :( we have a contract at the shelter where I volunteer that the animals must be brought back to us for any reason they cannot keep them anymore. sadly, we have had a few dogs come back to us because they have bitten. :(

Yep, thats the contract I'm talking about. I have to state why I'm returning him & ONLY him, other wise we have to return both, & both will be PTS, as the dogs can only be returned so many times. We were their last chance (thats why I said we were giving them a 2ed chance, but really more).

[Cinder & Smoke]

Good GRIEF!


Originally Posted by king2005

"Chad wasn't a problem in the house ...
It's ... That person kept setting him off.
Chad yelled ...
He spazed ...
Then my Anxiety was set off ...

Chad is back on Effexor & completely normal."




... it does seem to me like there is a lack of stability in the home environment.


http://petoftheday.com/i/our_smilies/rolleyes.gif
"lack of stability" ...

Now, whatever gives that impresion??

Anybody know what happened to the previous Epic Tail of Bear being "Trapped Upstairs"?
Seems THAT Tail suddenly vanished -
Did the Magic *Delete* button put an end to all those suggestions?

Any bets on how much longer THIS Tail will last?

[gemini9961]

Amen Phred!

[dukedogsmom]

Good GRIEF!





http://petoftheday.com/i/our_smilies/rolleyes.gif
"lack of stability" ...

Now, whatever gives that impresion??

Anybody know what happened to the previous Epic Tail of Bear being "Trapped Upstairs"?
Seems THAT Tail suddenly vanished -
Did the Magic *Delete* button put an end to all those suggestions?

Any bets on how much longer THIS Tail will last?
Chad dragged Bear down the stairs :( I feel the same way.

[Muddy4paws]

Good GRIEF!

Originally Posted by king2005

"Chad wasn't a problem in the house ...
It's ... That person kept setting him off.
Chad yelled ...
He spazed ...
Then my Anxiety was set off ...

Chad is back on Effexor & completely normal."



http://petoftheday.com/i/our_smilies/rolleyes.gif
"lack of stability" ...

Now, whatever gives that impresion??

Anybody know what happened to the previous Epic Tail of Bear being "Trapped Upstairs"?
Seems THAT Tail suddenly vanished -
Did the Magic *Delete* button put an end to all those suggestions?

Any bets on how much longer THIS Tail will last?

I'm glad someone said it! I find it hard to believe alot of these threads :rolleyes:

[king2005]

Good GRIEF!


Originally Posted by king2005

"Chad wasn't a problem in the house ...
It's ... That person kept setting him off.
Chad yelled ...
He spazed ...
Then my Anxiety was set off ...

Chad is back on Effexor & completely normal."



http://petoftheday.com/i/our_smilies/rolleyes.gif
"lack of stability" ...

Now, whatever gives that impresion??

Anybody know what happened to the previous Epic Tail of Bear being "Trapped Upstairs"?
Seems THAT Tail suddenly vanished -
Did the Magic *Delete* button put an end to all those suggestions?

Any bets on how much longer THIS Tail will last?

It was deleted because of fighting.. After Karen removed a fight between 2 members (it was between those 2, not about my thread), I read a post & it brought up the fighting. I didn't read on, in fear it was gonna be another stupid fight all over again, so i just removed it to prevent another childish fight between 2 members.

The advice was great. I just wasn't able to share it with Chad before he had already gotten her down stairs... I do work, & I don't keep tabs on his doings the whole day. He did what he thought was right as she was starting to get upset at being up there (lots of crying). He was in front of her, holding her collar & scruff in order not to strangle her.. every few steps, he would stop, praise her & go down a few more, etc. She was spoiled rotten when they got to the bottom... He knew shes not to have too many treats, esp people food, due to her weight issue, but he knew he had scared her & wanted her to know she was still a good dog. He even took her behind the river to play with her (OMG you should see them play haha, he doesn't like being licked & Bear knows it.. so she'll be playing & the second his mouth is open & vonurable, she goes for the BIG lick haha.. he scream eww & then she tackles him while hes thinking about the slober in his mouth hahaha.. she wins every time hahaha, shes not stupid by all means hahaha)


EDIT: sorry my bad.. the fight started becasue of my thread yes, but that member attacked me with no cause & then a fight defending me droke out & 2 members started at each other... a couple of the members PMed me saying sorry, so i didn't think anyone else needed to reopen that war, aster the majority of the members fighting had already said sorry.

[areias]

He even took her behind the river to play with her (OMG you should see them play haha, he doesn't like being licked & Bear knows it.. so she'll be playing & the second his mouth is open & vonurable, she goes for the BIG lick haha.. he scream eww & then she tackles him while hes thinking about the slober in his mouth hahaha.. she wins every time hahaha, shes not stupid by all means hahaha)

It is this kind of behavior-screaming and encouraging a dog to tackle you that can cause problems.

I hate to say it, but I am truely disgusted by this thread. If advice will not be taken, I have nothing left to say. I have asked repeatedly what happened to make the dog bite, and the circumstances...you will not tell me. Most of us cannot help you, or see just why you are doing what you are doing if we don't know what happened. Something about a door and an "attack", that's all I got out of it. Exactly what happened that you don't want to tell us?

RIP Mr. Biggles...I hope your trip to the bridge is pain-free. I am deeply saddened by this. :(

[king2005]

It is this kind of behavior-screaming and encouraging a dog to tackle you that can cause problems.

I hate to say it, but I am truely disgusted by this thread. If advice will not be taken, I have nothing left to say. I have asked repeatedly what happened to make the dog bite, and the circumstances...you will not tell me. Most of us cannot help you, or see just why you are doing what you are doing if we don't know what happened. Something about a door and an "attack", that's all I got out of it. Exactly what happened that you don't want to tell us?

RIP Mr. Biggles...I hope your trip to the bridge is pain-free. I am deeply saddened by this. :(

Wrong kind of tackle... I'll try to explain it the best I can.
Bear LOVES to play tackle (we just call it tackle cause it looks like it).. She'll wack you with her front legs while shes all excited & wanting you to tap her side or butt (she'll dance if you get her, if you miss she wiggles & awooooooos at you) & well getting hit with a hard leg hurts & tickles the shins... so we fall over.. then shes goes into crazy wiggle mode & starts dancing & licking you all over.. she will NOT step on you (that would hurt a lot).. if you don't get back up, she'll show you how heavy her head can be on your face (shes a big kissy dog)

I already said what happend, theres nothing else to say my goodness.
If I missed something you posted I'm sorry, if you haven't noticed there are a lot of posts being posted & I'm trying to work & remember where i left on in this thread.. then type on top of that

[Catlady711]

Catlady711 thank you for that.

You're welcome.

I totally understand the legal liability & consequences that influence your decision.

Besides an ethical/reputable vet would never agree to PTS a healthy animal without extenuating circumstances, such as an attack/mauling. However in the interest of the safety of humans and other animals most will agree to do it in a case like this. They don't like doing it anymore than other people, but they also understand the legal liabilities and consequences of it. And most laws are designed to protect humans as well as other animals from such incidents.

On a side note, we recently had to PTS a dog that was agressive despite a loving home and good care it was getting now. It was a rescue foster dog from a troubled home and she was his last chance also. The catalist event that caused the owner to schedule this appointment was that the dog had killed another dog in the house. The owner was distraught at not only having to make a decision like that about this dog, but she'd seen the mauling happen and was horrified at watching the other dog die at the mouth of this one. She loved both dogs very much.

[applesmom]

Of all the posts insisting that mr Biggles should be re-homed, there wasn't even one poster who actually offered to take on the responsibility.

Everyone has perfectly valid reasons why they can't take in a dog that has a history of biting and being returned to the shelter more than once. Not to mention a dog whose bites have escalated to full on attacks. Yet as far as the nay sayers are concerned Jess's reasons are completely without merit and even cruel. Why are anyone elses reasons more credible than hers? The answer of course is because they're not living with the problem.

The real ones to blame here are Mr Biggles original owners who put up with his behavior and "worked around the problems" instead of taking responsible action to correct them. The same owners that dumped him after 8 years because "working around the problem" only made things worse until poor Mr. Biggles is now unfit to live in society.

To anyone that is convinced that Mr Biggles should be rehomed; most likely she would even pay the shipping to send him to you if you are willing and able to take on the responsibility. Do we hear any offers? :(

[DrKym]

Of all the posts insisting that mr Biggles should be re-homed, there wasn't even one poster who actually offered to take on the responsibility.

Everyone has perfectly valid reasons why they can't take in a dog that has a history of biting and being returned to the shelter more than once. Not to mention a dog whose bites have escalated to full on attacks. Yet as far as the nay sayers are concerned Jess's reasons are completely without merit and even cruel. Why are anyone elses reasons more credible than hers? The answer of course is because they're not living with the problem.

The real ones to blame here are Mr Biggles original owners who put up with his behavior and "worked around the problems" instead of taking responsible action to correct them. The same owners that dumped him after 8 years because "working around the problem" only made things worse until poor Mr. Biggles is now unfit to live in society.

To anyone that is convinced that Mr Biggles should be rehomed; most likely she would even pay the shipping to send him to you if you are willing and able to take on the responsibility. Do we hear any offers? :(

Very well said.

It is a tragic situation all around.

[luvofallhorses]

To anyone that is convinced that Mr Biggles should be rehomed; most likely she would even pay the shipping to send him to you if you are willing and able to take on the responsibility. Do we hear any offers? :(

someone would take him if we didn't already have our own animals to deal with. I feel bad for Mr. Biggles. and what doesn't make sense to me is that if you take Mr. Biggles back to the shelter, you have to bring the other dog back, too. :confused: that has never happened when we adopted out 2 dogs together, ever.

[Catty1]

Jess CAN return just one dog to the shelter if that dog has a problem. That's what I understood, anyway.

And note:

1. Both Jess and Chad are getting help for their own problems. (See "General", or look for the link posted early on here.

2. These dogs, I believe, were adopted with the best of intentions.

3. Even if - IF - this is not a suitable home for dogs, we have the situation as it is now.

4. I am sure that Jess will have the sense to discuss this with whatever vet she is taking Biggles to. The vet may know of an alternative - even a JRT rescue, which may be an option, Jess.

I have seen posts from pet owners here where their home situation is anything but good with the other humans there. Are you going to rehome your pet because you fight with the humans there?

This is not for everyone - but remember, when you point a finger, there are three pointing back at you.

Biggles bit TWICE...and the second one was an attack. NOT a nip or bit - an attack.

Just my two cents.

Jess, hugs...and hug Biggles for me. I know you will talk to your vet, and this is very hard.

I suggest we pray for EVERYONE in the home, 4-legged and 2-legged.

[Muddy4paws]

Of all the posts insisting that mr Biggles should be re-homed, there wasn't even one poster who actually offered to take on the responsibility.

Everyone has perfectly valid reasons why they can't take in a dog that has a history of biting and being returned to the shelter more than once. Not to mention a dog whose bites have escalated to full on attacks. Yet as far as the nay sayers are concerned Jess's reasons are completely without merit and even cruel. Why are anyone elses reasons more credible than hers? The answer of course is because they're not living with the problem.

The real ones to blame here are Mr Biggles original owners who put up with his behavior and "worked around the problems" instead of taking responsible action to correct them. The same owners that dumped him after 8 years because "working around the problem" only made things worse until poor Mr. Biggles is now unfit to live in society.

To anyone that is convinced that Mr Biggles should be rehomed; most likely she would even pay the shipping to send him to you if you are willing and able to take on the responsibility. Do we hear any offers? :(



I feel like im stating the obvious here, If you get an animal from rescue you have to respect its background and work with the dog! not give up at the first hurdle. Alot of dogs that go in rescue do have problems which is why there are there in the first place King should of known that and should be willing to help that poor dog through it all rather than just giving up. The dog has been placed in a brand new enviroment and to me it doesnt sound like a calm enviroment at all! I think its such a shame

[king2005]

Of all the posts insisting that mr Biggles should be re-homed, there wasn't even one poster who actually offered to take on the responsibility.

Everyone has perfectly valid reasons why they can't take in a dog that has a history of biting and being returned to the shelter more than once. Not to mention a dog whose bites have escalated to full on attacks. Yet as far as the nay sayers are concerned Jess's reasons are completely without merit and even cruel. Why are anyone elses reasons more credible than hers? The answer of course is because they're not living with the problem.

The real ones to blame here are Mr Biggles original owners who put up with his behavior and "worked around the problems" instead of taking responsible action to correct them. The same owners that dumped him after 8 years because "working around the problem" only made things worse until poor Mr. Biggles is now unfit to live in society.

To anyone that is convinced that Mr Biggles should be rehomed; most likely she would even pay the shipping to send him to you if you are willing and able to take on the responsibility. Do we hear any offers? :(


I thank you for that post, but please now understand why I'm getting upset. I'm using your post more as an example as to why I'm upset, not attacking you or anything. Please don't be offended, but I don't think you will (if I can word it properly, which isn't easy)

But you just said "To anyone that is convinced that Mr Biggles should be rehomed" I clearly did stat that in the contract I cannot rehome the dogs.

Seeing posts that keep saying things that I cannot control is getting very flustering, which in the end can make me upset as I keep trying to explain I have no control over that, but no one listens & gets mad at me for not doing what they tell me to do, when they themselves have not taken the time to a) read the whole thread to insure they are up to date.. or ... b) Missed that post (not your fault I know, I do it too, but its still flustering to both parties) & when more then 1 person does it, it gets to the point of GAH!!!

I don't think it came out the way I wanted it to.. but I hope my point has gotten across (its a good point!!!!)...

[areias]

To anyone that is convinced that Mr Biggles should be rehomed; most likely she would even pay the shipping to send him to you if you are willing and able to take on the responsibility. Do we hear any offers? :(

I wish I could take him. I would take him except there is a 7 year old and a 10 year old and their friends in and out of the house. Unfortunately it dosen't sound like there is much time to find someone for him, and not on my end.

[Catty1]

someone would take him if we didn't already have our own animals to deal with.

Many people with animals here have rehomed another animal. That statement doen't wash with me.

This is not the 'first hurdle' either....Biggles was nippy, that was being worked with and improved...but Biggles has bitten TWICE.

Again, between Jess and her vet is the best thing, I think.

[luvofallhorses]

I didn't mean any harm by that statement, honestly. I meant other people have their own animals and cannot afford another animal like I can't.. THAT is what I meant. I wish Mr. Biggles the best of luck. :(

[king2005]

someone would take him if we didn't already have our own animals to deal with. I feel bad for Mr. Biggles. and what doesn't make sense to me is that if you take Mr. Biggles back to the shelter, you have to bring the other dog back, too. :confused: that has never happened when we adopted out 2 dogs together, ever.

It was part of our contract. Both dogs must stay together period. So if we return one, they both have to go. I have no control over it, so when 1 is returned to attacking they both are PTS.. But because Mr. Biggles attacked I can pay to have him PTS & I can be there while he goes to the RB

[Muddy4paws]

This thread was always going to cause a stir and I dont think im alone in thinking this but most of kings threads do.

I think biggles has a chance but not with king. I'm sorry but I dont think you are experienced enough for a dog like this and I think the shelter done a crap job when it come to rehoming these 2 dogs.

If the vet suggests a behaviourists are you willing to work with them?

[applesmom]

Even after a lifetime with dogs, living alone and not having a dog at the moment; I'll have to be honest and say I wouldn't even consider taking on Mr Biggles and his problems.

Not while there are millions of loving well adjusted dogs being put to death every year!!!!

Mr Biggles is a victim, but so are the many individuals that tried to provide him with a loving home only to be forced to dump him back in the shelter again. There is no way of knowing how many people he has bitten in his eight years. It was just a matter of time, Mr. Biggles original owners sealed his fate years ago.

[Lori Jordan]

In the states home owners insurance policies can be cancelled if you have a known agressive dog. In the states also you can face personal lawsuits from a person bitten, whether friend or delivery person, and have to pay court costs, medical bils, and pain & suffering which can be very costly. And in most states there are dog bite laws that will have the biting dog PTS, particularly if it's not a first offence.

I took the liberty of looking up the Dog Owners Liability Act of Ontario (http://www.doglegislationcouncilcanada.org/dolaON.html) and found the following information...

(1) The owner of a dog is liable for damages resulting from a bite or attack by the dog on another person or domestic animal. R.S.O. 1990, c. D.16, s. 2 (1).

(3) The liability of the owner does not depend upon knowledge of the propensity of the dog or fault or negligence on the part of the owner, but the court shall reduce the damages awarded in proportion to the degree, if any, to which the fault or negligence of the plaintiff caused or contributed to the damages. R.S.O. 1990, c. D.16, s. 2 (3).

(3) If, in a proceeding under subsection (1), the court finds that the dog has bitten or attacked a person or domestic animal or that the dog’s behaviour is such that the dog is a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals, and the court is satisfied that an order is necessary for the protection of the public, the court may order,
(a) that the dog be destroyed in the manner specified in the order

5. When, in a proceeding under section 4, the court finds that the dog has bitten or attacked a person or domestic animal or that the dog’s behaviour is such that the dog is a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals, the court may make an order prohibiting the dog’s owner from owning another dog during a specified period of time. 2000, c. 26, Sched. A, s. 6; 2005, c. 2, s. 1 (14).

Proceedings against owner of dog
4. (1) A proceeding may be commenced in the Ontario Court of Justice against an owner of a dog if it is alleged that,
(a) the dog has bitten or attacked a person or domestic animal;
(b) the dog has behaved in a manner that poses a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals; or
(c) the owner did not exercise reasonable precautions to prevent the dog from,
(i) biting or attacking a person or domestic animal, or
(ii) behaving in a manner that poses a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals. 2005, c. 2, s. 1 (6).




And I HAVE to comment on this.....



They use the testing methods they do to simulate real life situations the dogs may encounter in a new home whether accidental or deliberate. I think it's far better they test them first rather than adopt out an animal that may attack or even kill someone without knowing what kind of temperment they have.


Not knowing which animal cops you were watching (New York, Huston, Detroit) however in all cases those places that take the animals in for treatment are ASPCA. Those places are basically funded by donations, not federal money. There is only so much money to save/treat x amount of animals. As we all know there are millions of homeless, abused, neglected, abandoned animals out there needing homes. There are only so many homes available for all these animals.

To spend the extra $$ to pay for special training for agressiveness, the additional food & medical care the dog would need in the meantime would cost alot! That money and time could be used to spend on probably saving FIVE other animals in more dire circumstances that are perfectly adoptable. The more adoptions, the more money comes in, AND opens up cage space for yet another animal to be saved. By keeping a known agressive animal, spending the money on training that may or may not work, jeopardizing the staff in the meantime with an agressive dog, and taking time, money and cage space, would put other animals that need help and are adoptable at risk of not being helped.

Sometimes you have to look at the numbers. Sometimes it's necessary to sacrifice a few to save many.
It was a puppy for god sake!It actually was New York Animal Precingt

[kimlovescats]

In the states home owners insurance policies can be cancelled if you have a known agressive dog. In the states also you can face personal lawsuits from a person bitten, whether friend or delivery person, and have to pay court costs, medical bils, and pain & suffering which can be very costly. And in most states there are dog bite laws that will have the biting dog PTS, particularly if it's not a first offence.

I took the liberty of looking up the Dog Owners Liability Act of Ontario (http://www.doglegislationcouncilcanada.org/dolaON.html) and found the following information...

(1) The owner of a dog is liable for damages resulting from a bite or attack by the dog on another person or domestic animal. R.S.O. 1990, c. D.16, s. 2 (1).

(3) The liability of the owner does not depend upon knowledge of the propensity of the dog or fault or negligence on the part of the owner, but the court shall reduce the damages awarded in proportion to the degree, if any, to which the fault or negligence of the plaintiff caused or contributed to the damages. R.S.O. 1990, c. D.16, s. 2 (3).

(3) If, in a proceeding under subsection (1), the court finds that the dog has bitten or attacked a person or domestic animal or that the dog’s behaviour is such that the dog is a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals, and the court is satisfied that an order is necessary for the protection of the public, the court may order,
(a) that the dog be destroyed in the manner specified in the order

5. When, in a proceeding under section 4, the court finds that the dog has bitten or attacked a person or domestic animal or that the dog’s behaviour is such that the dog is a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals, the court may make an order prohibiting the dog’s owner from owning another dog during a specified period of time. 2000, c. 26, Sched. A, s. 6; 2005, c. 2, s. 1 (14).

Proceedings against owner of dog
4. (1) A proceeding may be commenced in the Ontario Court of Justice against an owner of a dog if it is alleged that,
(a) the dog has bitten or attacked a person or domestic animal;
(b) the dog has behaved in a manner that poses a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals; or
(c) the owner did not exercise reasonable precautions to prevent the dog from,
(i) biting or attacking a person or domestic animal, or
(ii) behaving in a manner that poses a menace to the safety of persons or domestic animals. 2005, c. 2, s. 1 (6).




And I HAVE to comment on this.....



They use the testing methods they do to simulate real life situations the dogs may encounter in a new home whether accidental or deliberate. I think it's far better they test them first rather than adopt out an animal that may attack or even kill someone without knowing what kind of temperment they have.


Not knowing which animal cops you were watching (New York, Huston, Detroit) however in all cases those places that take the animals in for treatment are ASPCA. Those places are basically funded by donations, not federal money. There is only so much money to save/treat x amount of animals. As we all know there are millions of homeless, abused, neglected, abandoned animals out there needing homes. There are only so many homes available for all these animals.

To spend the extra $$ to pay for special training for agressiveness, the additional food & medical care the dog would need in the meantime would cost alot! That money and time could be used to spend on probably saving FIVE other animals in more dire circumstances that are perfectly adoptable. The more adoptions, the more money comes in, AND opens up cage space for yet another animal to be saved. By keeping a known agressive animal, spending the money on training that may or may not work, jeopardizing the staff in the meantime with an agressive dog, and taking time, money and cage space, would put other animals that need help and are adoptable at risk of not being helped.

Sometimes you have to look at the numbers. Sometimes it's necessary to sacrifice a few to save many.


This is a very good and rational post! I would / could NEVER forgive myself if my pet injured or even killed another human being!!! Mr. Biggles is a senior dog, (if I remember correctly) who Jess has given a chance at a loving home. For whatever reason, it is obvious that he is just not going to adjust at this point in his life. It is very sad for him, but certainly not Jess's fault and NOT worth the risk of causing harm to another human being.

[Blue_Frog]

and what doesn't make sense to me is that if you take Mr. Biggles back to the shelter, you have to bring the other dog back, too. :confused: that has never happened when we adopted out 2 dogs together, ever.
I could be mistaken, but I believe that the dogs were adopted from the THS's 'Bonded Pair' programme --
http://www.torontohumanesociety.com/adopt/bonded_pets.asp
These are pets that are adoped out together as a pair, and returned as a pair if need be. From my understanding, this particular pair has been returned several times to the THS already, making this the last chance they have for a home, and another return would result in both being PTS.

Also, from what i understand, Jess also signed a contract stating that if there were problems with the dogs, they were to be returned to the THS as a pair, and could -not- be rehomed by her.

The fact that one dog, regarless of size, has bitten twice is cause for concern all around. I sympathize for everyone involved, and god only knows what happened in Mr.B's past that would give him this reaction. However, now Chad has been attacked. Not bitten, but a bite/tear enough to cause a 4 inch gash, bleeding and bruising.

If this was a larger dog, the results may have been much worse. If it was the Rottweiler that had attacked (instead of the 10 pound malteese mix) and torn a larger chunk out of Chad than a 4" gash, would the situation be the same? Would there be any question about the dog being PTS? Its unlikely that an unpredictable human agressive small dog has the potential of killing someone that a large breed with the same issues might.

The natural human reaction to being attacked is fear, and it seems now that Chad is unable to live in the house with this dog, with the unpredictability of not knowing if he will be bitten again even if the chances were slim to none. The dog can't be rehomed. The dogs will both likely be PTS if returned. A dog trainer/behaviourist may help - in weeks, months or years at this point, depending on how badly scarred this dog is, or how ingrained the behaviour. Can they live in the house for that long with the possiblility of more attacks?

Jess is making a hard decision, and the decision that she feels is best in this situation. I hope the best for her, and the household.

[applesmom]

I wish I could take him. I would take him except there is a 7 year old and a 10 year old and their friends in and out of the house. Unfortunately it dosen't sound like there is much time to find someone for him, and not on my end.

I completely understand the dilemma of everyone who has legitimate excuses why they can't take Mr Biggles. For reasons that should be clearly obvious by this time, Mr Biggles is not a candidate for rehoming with anyone!

[elizabethann]

This is a very good and rational post! I would / could NEVER forgive myself if my pet injured or even killed another human being!!! Mr. Biggles is a senior dog, (if I remember correctly) who Jess has given a chance at a loving home. For whatever reason, it is obvious that he is just not going to adjust at this point in his life. It is very sad for him, but certainly not Jess's fault and NOT worth the risk of causing harm to another human being.

Mr. Biggles is a senior? I didn't know that. I've been trying to keep up with the posts and it's hard to do. King2005, do you think Mr. Biggles has problems with his eye sight? So when Chad opened the door, Mr. Biggles just freaked because he couldn't see very well? You may want to ask your vet about that. However, I'm not sure what they can do to help him if it was his eye sight.

[luvofallhorses]

I could be mistaken, but I believe that the dogs were adopted from the THS's 'Bonded Pair' programme --
http://www.torontohumanesociety.com/adopt/bonded_pets.asp
These are pets that are adoped out together as a pair, and returned as a pair if need be. From my understanding, this particular pair has been returned several times to the THS already, making this the last chance they have for a home, and another return would result in both being PTS.

Also, from what i understand, Jess also signed a contract stating that if there were problems with the dogs, they were to be returned to the THS as a pair, and could -not- be rehomed by her.

The fact that one dog, regarless of size, has bitten twice is cause for concern all around. I sympathize for everyone involved, and god only knows what happened in Mr.B's past that would give him this reaction. However, now Chad has been attacked. Not bitten, but a bite/tear enough to cause a 4 inch gash, bleeding and bruising.

If this was a larger dog, the results may have been much worse. If it was the Rottweiler that had attacked (instead of the 10 pound malteese mix) and torn a larger chunk out of Chad than a 4" gash, would the situation be the same? Would there be any question about the dog being PTS? Its unlikely that an unpredictable human agressive small dog has the potential of killing someone that a large breed with the same issues might.

The natural human reaction to being attacked is fear, and it seems now that Chad is unable to live in the house with this dog, with the unpredictability of not knowing if he will be bitten again even if the chances were slim to none. The dog can't be rehomed. The dogs will both likely be PTS if returned. A dog trainer/behaviourist may help - in weeks, months or years at this point, depending on how badly scarred this dog is, or how ingrained the behaviour. Can they live in the house for that long with the possiblility of more attacks?

Jess is making a hard decision, and the decision that she feels is best in this situation. I hope the best for her, and the household.

I am sorry I didn't know that.. :o but thanks for informing me.

[Lori Jordan]

Why this post has botherd me the most is I HAVE BEEN THERE! And i never looked at Bandit any different,I had him in classes,But trust me it was frustrating every time someone showed up id put him in his Kennel outside,Which in a way may not have been fair,But everyone was safe and there was no there situations harming no one.

As most of you know i joined here after i lost Bandit I lost him due to a hit and run,I hate to say this but after he has passed it was like a big brick was lifted off my shoulders,I loved him but i was always on edge,And if he was still here i would never make that horrible desicion,Id have to DEAL with it best i could.


Maybe i am a bad person,I do tend to put my babies before others and if people dont like it,Oh well move on!My kids come first offcourse,But my animals need me more than they do now,That they are nearly grown.

I went the extra mile,I dont see King doing that,One inncident happend who knows what is going on in his head,He needs some guidance,Any of us can turn over and start a new leaf,But giving up dont put us no where,My SIL put her Aussie down last August,Lacy and Jake did not come from the"Best Breeders" By far,And Lacy had overcome some things.

Jake was in classed,Had a behavioralist in the Home twice a week,He had bit a neighbor,And after he would stalk people he turned on me,He lunged at me we are not sure why But these things do happen,This dog needs something another chance and if not given you will have to live with the desicion you made for the rest of your life,My SIL does everyday she says "what if" Do you want to have to ask yourself that question everyday? I know i wouldnt.

I am very puzzled to this i dont have enough answers,I Just dont think Chad is stable enough,If you have to move do it,Atleast you know your animals will be safe,I dont care who you are on medication you do thinks withought thinking..

[Blue_Frog]

I am sorry I didn't know that.. :o but thanks for informing me.
No worries, I haven't heard of this programme outside of the THS before either :) Just thought i'd post the link that might hopefully clear up why both dogs were more than just adopted together :)

[king2005]

This thread was always going to cause a stir and I dont think im alone in thinking this but most of kings threads do.

I think biggles has a chance but not with king. I'm sorry but I dont think you are experienced enough for a dog like this and I think the shelter done a crap job when it come to rehoming these 2 dogs.

If the vet suggests a behaviourists are you willing to work with them?

Thats because I only start threads I don't know what to do or feel like **** about.. Why post about something I already know? I'm not into chatting up a storm on the forums, I use it more as a resouce when I need it. I'm not into playing or starting games, so ya.. all my posts are gonna be about things I need help on or feel like **** about... I was already reemed about asking for help the other day, so at least that can't start up in this thread...

We didn't want an agressive dog! We made that quite clear!!! Actually we made that very clear & turned down some dogs they showed us, as they were a little agressive & we wanted NO agression. Chewing, messing, not knowing sit, come or stay, was 100% fine with us... but it was 100% NO to agression!! We're VERY angry at the shelter & at the old owners for this... We thought we were getting dogs with issues we could handle & work on. All other issues we handled.. I came here to get advice, so I could try more then 1 thing with the dogs. As some things work for 1 dog & don't for another (why its sooo important to have a plan A. B. C. & D.)...


This isn't easy on us.. Chad has called me several times in tears. As Mr. Biggles is barking & its upsetting Chad pretty bad. He keeps leaving the house all stressed out... Bear has already gone on 6 walks with Chad, & its only 2pm.. Shes getting pooped out, but he has no wheres else to go, as hes living in fear of mr. Biggles getting loose & Attacking him again.

How on earth is keeping Mr. Biggles fair to Chad? He was just attacked for nothing & is pretty much still trapped with the dog.

I'm sorry but sometimes people have to come first. If I could rehome Mr. Biggles into a special group that deals with agressive dogs, then ya I'd do it as he is a sweety (when hes not trying to rip your arm off)... but I can't... There are no other choices...

[Miss Z]

I don't really have too much to say on the matter, I've had a scan through the thread but I've not taken a lot in as I'm a bit tired tonight, so excuse me if I've missed a few key points.

What I do have to say though is this whole thread makes me very, VERY sad. If I cast my mind back I can remember another similar thread about an animal being put down that king2005 posted. I really hope that this situation is resolved in the best way possible for all involved.

[Lori Jordan]

Thats because I only start threads I don't know what to do or feel like shit about.. Why post about something I already know? I'm not into chatting up a storm on the forums, I use it more as a resouce when I need it. I'm not into playing or starting games, so ya.. all my posts are gonna be about things I need help on or feel like shit about... I was already reemed about asking for help the other day, so at least that can't start up in this thread...

We didn't want an agressive dog! We made that quite clear!!! Actually we made that very clear & turned down some dogs they showed us, as they were a little agressive & we wanted NO agression. Chewing, messing, not knowing sit, come or stay, was 100% fine with us... but it was 100% NO to agression!! We're VERY pissed at the shelter & at the old owners for this... We thought we were getting dogs with issues we could handle & work on. All other issues we handled.. I came here to get advice, so I could try more then 1 thing with the dogs. As some things work for 1 dog & don't for another (why its sooo important to have a plan A. B. C. & D.)...


This isn't easy on us.. Chad has called me several times in tears. As Mr. Biggles is barking & its upsetting Chad pretty bad. He keeps leaving the house all stressed out... Bear has already gone on 6 walks with Chad, & its only 2pm.. Shes getting pooped out, but he has no wheres else to go, as hes living in fear of mr. Biggles getting loose & Attacking him again.

How on earth is keeping Mr. Biggles fair to Chad? He was just attacked for nothing & is pretty much still trapped with the dog.

I'm sorry but sometimes people have to come first. If I could rehome Mr. Biggles into a special group that deals with agressive dogs, then ya I'd do it as he is a sweety (when hes not trying to rip your arm off)... but I can't... There are no other choices...



Ok you didn't want an aggressive dog,What was your first clue when you were notified that the dogs have been brought back numerous times?

[pitc9]

Just my 2 cents.....

When a dog has a problem, ANY problem no matter what the problem is, introducing a shock collar like you did to try to change the barking behavior can make a small problem big or can create other problems.

I don't know when you started using it, when the first bite happened, how often the collar was used, how long it was kept on, what setting it was on. It doesn’t matter; maybe the shock collar triggered something, maybe something from his past.

This entire thing is sad... from the second you adopted them it's been one thing after another, and it's obviously been more than you 2 can handle.
I hope and pray that if you ever think about adopting again you'll think VERY long and hard about it before getting in over your head like you did to yourself here.

I pray for Mr. Biggles and I hope if he does make the trip to RB that it will be peaceful. I pray for Bear and her quality of life.

I hope you and Chad find a way to become mentally stable for one another and find a way to survive in a healthy environment together and I pray you don't get any other dogs.

[king2005]

Mr. Biggles is a senior? I didn't know that. I've been trying to keep up with the posts and it's hard to do. King2005, do you think Mr. Biggles has problems with his eye sight? So when Chad opened the door, Mr. Biggles just freaked because he couldn't see very well? You may want to ask your vet about that. However, I'm not sure what they can do to help him if it was his eye sight.

I asked about his health when we adopted him (he was with the vet the day before getting a check up), & he was in fab. health for an old guy.. ok his teeth were gonan need a cleaning soon, but that was it.

Mr. Biggles has 20/20.. he can see a tiny dim light & chase it all over the place at a really fast pace! He can hear too well aswell.. I cannot sneek around the house without him hearing me... I'm quiet as a mouse, to the point he guys have no idea where I am 1/2 the time.. but Mr. Biggles hears me everytime & would run up to me wanting to be picked up & ruining my cover.

[king2005]

Ok you didn't want an aggressive dog,What was your first clue when you were notified that the dogs have been brought back numerous times?

We were told they were returned because it was too hard to medicate bear.

Which is total BS!! She has never missed a pill or wasted one... She takes them like a champ, with a little help from a 1cm long french fry twice a day.

[king2005]

I don't really have too much to say on the matter, I've had a scan through the thread but I've not taken a lot in as I'm a bit tired tonight, so excuse me if I've missed a few key points.

What I do have to say though is this whole thread makes me very, VERY sad. If I cast my mind back I can remember another similar thread about an animal being put down that king2005 posted. I really hope that this situation is resolved in the best way possible for all involved.

If this is the rat I'm thinking about, he was ill. Yes the treatment could work, but in my past exp. my rats ended up suffering far longer then feeling good. So how is having a pet put down due to an illness thats causing them pain & weakness a bad thing how?

You also for got to mention that I didn't own him

[Miss Z]

If this is the rat I'm thinking about, he was ill. Yes the treatment could work, but in my past exp. my rats ended up suffering far longer then feeling good. So how is having a pet put down due to an illness thats causing them pain & weakness a bad thing how?

You also for got to mention that I didn't own him

I'm not going to go through the whole rat thread all over again. That got me and many others very upset and you know it. I don't seem to recall you ever mentioning he wasn't yours, perhaps I did indeed miss that, but anyway, where I come from at least, you can not legally put a pet down without the owner's consent.

I just hope that this time Mr. Biggles is luckier than Grissim.

And please stop trying to spy on us all on gabbly. If you really feel that this forum isn't right for you, then that's entirely your decision and no-one will interfere with that.

[Catlady711]

It was a puppy for god sake!It actually was New York Animal Precingt

New York Animal Precinct (ASPCA) - 8 million people, 5 million animals, says so right in their introduction to the show.

According to their website (http://animal.discovery.com/fansites/animalprecinct/history.html) ...

14 uniformed and plainclothes officers investigate more than 4,000 cases per year.

In 2000, over 33,000 calls and inquiries were received by HLE (Humane Law Enforcement) of which 4,262 were cruelty complaints for investigation. There were 55 arrests made, 30 summonses issued and 537 animals seized.


According to the ASPCA (http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pro_so_fastfacts) website...

No government institution or animal organization is responsible for tabulating national statistics for the animal protection movement.


Approximately 8 million to 12 million companion animals enter animal shelters nationwide every year, and approximately 5 million to 9 million are euthanized (60 percent of dogs and 70 percent of cats). Shelter intakes are about evenly divided between those animals relinquished by owners and those picked up by animal control. These are national estimates; the percentage of euthanasia may vary from state to state.


More than 20 percent of people who leave dogs in shelters adopted them from a shelter. (Source: NCPPSP)

Five out of ten dogs in shelters and seven out of ten cats in shelters are destroyed simply because there is no one to adopt them.


According to ASPCA (http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pro_so_regulationguide_newyork ) of New York also...

New York

Regulating Authority/Agency (for municipal animal shelters; for private shelters)
State Commissioner of Agriculture and Markets. See N.Y. Agric. & Mkts. § 108 (1999)

Adoption Procedures
- 1. The legislature finds that the uncontrolled breeding of dogs and cats in the state results in an overabundance of puppies and kittens. More puppies and kittens are produced than responsible homes for them can be provided. This leads to many of such animals becoming stray and suffering privation and death, being impounded and destroyed at great expense to the community and constituting a public nuisance and health hazard. It is therefore declared to be the public policy of New York state that every feasible humane means of reducing the production of unwanted puppies and kittens be encouraged.



Puppy or not, do you want to be the one to let one or more of those 537 animals stay in homes of neglect and abuse because their isn't the money or cage space available because of one agressive dog that may or may not be adoptable?

[carole]

Jess i have not read all the posts here, but obviously you have to expect some emotive responses, from a pet site, I understand what you are saying and I am not going to judge you, as i realise what a difficult decision you are making here, the only problem i have is your statement, "he is getting PTS and that's that,"it's like you are not even taking into consideration anything anyone has said, admittingly you did not ask for advice, but of course here on PT that is what you will get, and sometimes it is excellent advice, i feel sorry for the situation in hand ,just wish you had not made your mind up, and was so determined there was no other solution,anyhow having said all that, i guess what has to be done will be, i hope Biggles has a safe trip to the Bridge and you are ok with your decision. good luck.

Jess I am asking you as a friend can you please at least consider some of the options given to you here,of course none of us are walking in your shoes right now, and i really do feel for you,but please try and give biggles a chance,i think even you will feel much better for doing so,but it is entirely your call of course and i respect that,even if it makes me extremely sad, you have to do what you think is best.

[JenBKR]

And please stop trying to spy on us all on gabbly. If you really feel that this forum isn't right for you, then that's entirely your decision and no-one will interfere with that.

Not trying to change the subject...but what is gabbly? :o

EDIT: nevermind, I saw the link in general...duh! In any case, I am fairly certain that Jess was not spying on you, as I was chatting with her a bit today.

[king2005]

Jess i have not read all the posts here, but obviously you have to expect some emotive responses, from a pet site, I understand what you are saying and I am not going to judge you, as i realise what a difficult decision you are making here, the only problem i have is your statement, "he is getting PTS and that's that,"it's like you are not even taking into consideration anything anyone has said, admittingly you did not ask for advice, but of course here on PT that is what you will get, and sometimes it is excellent advice, i feel sorry for the situation in hand ,just wish you had not made your mind up, and was so determined there was no other solution,anyhow having said all that, i guess what has to be done will be, i hope Biggles has a safe trip to the Bridge and you are ok with your decision. good luck.

I said that in a stupid way, I don't think i explained all my options in detail when I typed that(I'm not going back to check, I'll just admit I more then likey didn't explain myself first).. that was purely MY fault there... But having him PTS is my only option & the only option, unless I want to have Bear PTS too for Mr. Biggles actions, which i don't!!!

[king2005]

I'm not going to go through the whole rat thread all over again. That got me and many others very upset and you know it. I don't seem to recall you ever mentioning he wasn't yours, perhaps I did indeed miss that, but anyway, where I come from at least, you can not legally put a pet down without the owner's consent.

I just hope that this time Mr. Biggles is luckier than Grissim.

And please stop trying to spy on us all on gabbly. If you really feel that this forum isn't right for you, then that's entirely your decision and no-one will interfere with that.

Your the one that brought it up not me.

I did state I was not his owner & never was. Thats why I wasn't able to have him PTS sooner. I had to get a hold of the owner & such, as par of our verbal contract.


What the heck is Gabbly??

What on earth are you talking about??
I didn't post anything about saying this forum isn't right for me? I said I'm not a chatty person & I use the site as a resource, not to play games like guess the pet, etc. Please stop making up things, as its easy for people to go back in this thread to see I didn't post what you said I did.. sheesh

[Catty1]

Lori - what options would you recommend?

Biggles is not allowed to be rehomed. NOT. By the shelter.

And it seems Jess was misled about the reason the dogs were returned. She stressed no aggression - which is necessary because Jess and Chad have their own things to deal with.

And the shelter lied.

I hope Chad saw a doctor for his wound and is up on his tetanus shots.

Many pets here live in far from perfect homes, so let's not start pointing fingers, ok?

I have been on meds thru my life, Lori - and will be for the rest. It is for clinical depression. It is when conditions like this are NOT treated that trouble happens - and Jess is getting help, as is Chad.

I think they could have dogs again - but no more "returned" dogs.

C

[carole]

you know i do understand your decision, i just feel it is very sad, and i guess i am just hoping there is a better solution, please don't have you mind so set,just maybe somewhere out there , there is a better deal for Biggles,you are dealing with a situation i certainly donot envey, and because of that i respect your feelings,but by the same token, i just cannot help but be a little optimistic that maybe, just maybe, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Whatever happens Jess, i hope the decision you make is the right one for you and Biggles,I know you are not taking this lightly,and for those who feel she is,please remember you are not living her life, I feel for all parties concerned in this awful situation,it is tragic really. :(

[Kfamr]

I don't think some of you are reading or fully comprehending Jess' posts.

-Legally, Mr. Biggles cannot be rehomed.
-Legally, if Jess takes Mr. Biggles back to the HS - Bear has to be returned as well.
-While Bear & Mr. Biggles have been returned several time before, and neither of them would be appealing to the everyday person, most likely both of thier lives will be taken away.
-Chad - a man she lives with, NOT in a relationship with - could lose his life if he were attacked again.

I'm not sure exactly where I stand because I wasn't there. At the same time, Simba bit my mom twice the first day we had him, but he's still here.
This whole thing just makes me sad, for Mr. Biggles and the humans involved.

I wish Mr. Biggles would be able to visit with a behaviorist - but it doesn't seem that is an option for Jess as she isn't the only one in control of these dogs. This whole thing just makes me sad, for Mr. Biggles and the humans involved.

I believe a lot of this may be caused by the facts stated in the thread she made in General. Her and Chad both need help - they are trying to recieve this help, and hopefully in the long run everyone will be "okay." No one is perfect, though.

[Lori Jordan]

New York Animal Precinct (ASPCA) - 8 million people, 5 million animals, says so right in their introduction to the show.

According to their website (http://animal.discovery.com/fansites/animalprecinct/history.html) ...

14 uniformed and plainclothes officers investigate more than 4,000 cases per year.

In 2000, over 33,000 calls and inquiries were received by HLE (Humane Law Enforcement) of which 4,262 were cruelty complaints for investigation. There were 55 arrests made, 30 summonses issued and 537 animals seized.


According to the ASPCA (http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pro_so_fastfacts) website...

No government institution or animal organization is responsible for tabulating national statistics for the animal protection movement.


Approximately 8 million to 12 million companion animals enter animal shelters nationwide every year, and approximately 5 million to 9 million are euthanized (60 percent of dogs and 70 percent of cats). Shelter intakes are about evenly divided between those animals relinquished by owners and those picked up by animal control. These are national estimates; the percentage of euthanasia may vary from state to state.


More than 20 percent of people who leave dogs in shelters adopted them from a shelter. (Source: NCPPSP)

Five out of ten dogs in shelters and seven out of ten cats in shelters are destroyed simply because there is no one to adopt them.


According to ASPCA (http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pro_so_regulationguide_newyork ) of New York also...

New York

Regulating Authority/Agency (for municipal animal shelters; for private shelters)
State Commissioner of Agriculture and Markets. See N.Y. Agric. & Mkts. § 108 (1999)

Adoption Procedures
- 1. The legislature finds that the uncontrolled breeding of dogs and cats in the state results in an overabundance of puppies and kittens. More puppies and kittens are produced than responsible homes for them can be provided. This leads to many of such animals becoming stray and suffering privation and death, being impounded and destroyed at great expense to the community and constituting a public nuisance and health hazard. It is therefore declared to be the public policy of New York state that every feasible humane means of reducing the production of unwanted puppies and kittens be encouraged.



Puppy or not, do you want to be the one to let one or more of those 537 animals stay in homes of neglect and abuse because their isn't the money or cage space available because of one agressive dog that may or may not be adoptable?

Not at all that is not what i am trying to say,I agree with you but a 4 month old puppy i find that obserd!The point im trying to get across is that if they worked with that puppy,The lady is on staff that takes care of that dept,He passed everything but the food agressive,Now all they did was started to pout....That puppy lost his life because he was hungry i dont care what the numbers are that women was not a dog behavioralist obviously!

[king2005]

Lori - what options would you recommend?

Biggles is not allowed to be rehomed. NOT. By the shelter.

And it seems Jess was misled about the reason the dogs were returned. She stressed no aggression - which is necessary because Jess and Chad have their own things to deal with.

And the shelter lied.

I hope Chad saw a doctor for his wound and is up on his tetanus shots.

Many pets here live in far from perfect homes, so let's not start pointing fingers, ok?

I have been on meds thru my life, Lori - and will be for the rest. It is for clinical depression. It is when conditions like this are NOT treated that trouble happens - and Jess is getting help, as is Chad.

I think they could have dogs again - but no more "returned" dogs.

C

Chad is scared to death of Dr.s after he faught for his life with the flesheatting in his arm & went through Chemo. Hes a really sensitive guy when it comes to harm to his body(hes a very clean guy). He knows if the wound gets infected he will go to the ER, but I have to go with him kicking & screaming (not litterly but you get the point).

I'm treating his wound with peroxid & polysporn. Cause it was bleeding & that needed to be taken care of first, we could have exposed him to extra bacteria by adding a cloth & an ice pack to help stop the bleeding...

The second I see him after work, I'll be looking it over again. If it looks worse then last night (esp the swelling) then I'll take him to the ER cause it could be the flesheatting starting under his skin again.

[Miss Z]

Your the one that brought it up not me.

I did state I was not his owner & never was. Thats why I wasn't able to have him PTS sooner. I had to get a hold of the owner & such, as par of our verbal contract.


What the heck is Gabbly??

What on earth are you talking about??
I didn't post anything about saying this forum isn't right for me? I said I'm not a chatty person & I use the site as a resource, not to play games like guess the pet, etc. Please stop making up things, as its easy for people to go back in this thread to see I didn't post what you said I did.. sheesh

Right, well I'm not going to argue with you again. I'm WAY too tired today from a very busy day and I've had enough with the way that you seek attention in threads like this then twist what everyone, including yourself, says! This will be my last post on one of your threads, for sure.

First off, I never denied I was the one that mentioned it, but MY intent was to keep it as a side-comment and as a comparison, not to delve right into all that upset again. Now, THAT was your part in it.

Well, all I can say about the gabbly incident is that you must have some sort of little side-kick running around on gabbly. I hope that they aren't coming back again. You never posted anything publically about wanting to leave, either you or this 'mysterious gabber' said it in the gabbly chat. I NEVER make things up for attention, what would be the point? To lose credibilty and the great friends I have here? Pfft.

I am not an argumentative person in the slightest and threads like this makes my head buzz, but I will stick up for what I think is not right. Sometimes, things like this make me seriously consider leaving PT, at times like this I remember all my friends here, but this time its toed the line.

I might take a break for a few days. Don't expect me back too soon. I'm sorry for those who have to read this argument, I know it upsets everyone and many of you may be annoyed with me (and king2005) now, but I had to express how this makes me feel.

I'm done with this insanity.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

I really feel sorry for Mr. Biggles...I realize that points made that you can't rehome him, etc, etc, but it doesn't seem like you tried any kind of behavior modification with him, or talked to your vet (which I see people mentioning, yet I haven't her King2005 say anything about- but maybe the story will change later).

I don't see why Chad owns dogs if he will die from a dog bite- that doesn't make sense. :confused: It also doesn't make sense that you chose to hide the first bite from him if he could die over it...if that's the case, YOU were putting his life at risk then. And, now that it has become more serious Mr. Biggles is the one to suffer.

[sprokett]

i feel for you Mr. biggles

[Lori Jordan]

Lori - what options would you recommend?

Biggles is not allowed to be rehomed. NOT. By the shelter.

And it seems Jess was misled about the reason the dogs were returned. She stressed no aggression - which is necessary because Jess and Chad have their own things to deal with.

And the shelter lied.

I hope Chad saw a doctor for his wound and is up on his tetanus shots.

Many pets here live in far from perfect homes, so let's not start pointing fingers, ok?

I have been on meds thru my life, Lori - and will be for the rest. It is for clinical depression. It is when conditions like this are NOT treated that trouble happens - and Jess is getting help, as is Chad.

I think they could have dogs again - but no more "returned" dogs.

C

Hi Catty,How have you been doing?

Ok First The dog obviously in unstable due to his past or the present situation he is in,Not one of us can say what is going on in that home,I can appear to be an animal lover,But no one knows what goes on behind closed doors right? in reality it is true.

The dog needs some training,If these dogs have been bounced around in homes who knows what they have been through,Now as i have read Bear is fine?
Dogs do not come agressive overnight as we all know,Somthing has happend that will probably be let out,And there is a million things to pin point why he is doing these things,What if Chad did something,When do dogs bite???? Everyone asks there self that Question,I do not believe we are getting the full truth.I think something has happend in that home,Only time will tell!

As to what i suggest.Getting that dog some kind of help,Classes whatever it takes,These dogs most likely have been through the ringer,Giving up is not an option in my books,I dont care how scared Chad is what if he did something,Would it be fair if Biggles was PTS over something he had no control over.
There is alot of people with small dogs on here ,Not all but some are nippy,My daughter works down the road at a kennel,She has been nipped by more poodles than anything,But it is taken into consideration they are on edge there in surroundings they are not sure of,And the big one ,There not at home,But that does not give the right to the Kennel owner to put them all down ! Something needs to be done,ill say i think these dogs are with two unstable people.They deserve better,I cannot make up anyones mind but....
We are all intilted to our opinions there is alot of people that are trying to guide them,But there minds are made up whether we like it or not.

[king2005]

I don't think some of you are reading or fully comprehending Jess' posts.

-Legally, Mr. Biggles cannot be rehomed.
-Legally, if Jess takes Mr. Biggles back to the HS - Bear has to be returned as well.
-While Bear & Mr. Biggles have been returned several time before, and neither of them would be appealing to the everyday person, most likely both of thier lives will be taken away.
-Chad - a man she lives with, NOT in a relationship with - could lose his life if he were attacked again.

I'm not sure exactly where I stand because I wasn't there. At the same time, Simba bit my mom twice the first day we had him, but he's still here.
This whole thing just makes me sad, for Mr. Biggles and the humans involved.

I wish Mr. Biggles would be able to visit with a behaviorist - but it doesn't seem that is an option for Jess as she isn't the only one in control of these dogs. This whole thing just makes me sad, for Mr. Biggles and the humans involved.

Gah I keep forgetting that people on this board don't know who Chad (I live with him & his husband) is, thats for pointing that out. Someone else brought up the name Rob. That wasn't even funny, my heart sank when I read that cause not once did I say Rob.. nor do I want to think about him.

If we knew he was agressive we never would have taken then, as its too risky with Chad. We spent 5hrs at the shelter making sure we got the right dog. We honestly tried to pick the ones for our home & with issues we could correct.

[Catlady711]

Not at all that is not what i am trying to say,I agree with you but a 4 month old puppy i find that obserd!The point im trying to get across is that if they worked with that puppy,The lady is on staff that takes care of that dept,He passed everything but the food agressive,Now all they did was started to pout....That puppy lost his life because he was hungry i dont care what the numbers are that women was not a dog behavioralist obviously!


Regardless of age, a 4 month old has to have a home just as much as an older dog. Agression in a puppy is just as serious as an older dog. And since I've watched the show quite a bit myself, I do believe that all the dogs they test, they FIRST do a health check on and get the dog back up to proper weight before they attempt the testing. These are professionals and have training to help them help the dogs.

Whether you agree or dissagree with the woman's abilities as a dog behavioralist, it's her job and she's doing it the best she can to help those that she can and to protect people and other animals. If you think you can do better I'm sure there are a TON of shelters that would love for you to voulunteer your services to them to help those you can, and I'm sure the animals would thank you gratefully for it.

Given the lack of good homes available, the number of rescues/siezures they have, the amount of money and cage space available, they simply can only put x amount of time, effort, and money into any one dog, and it's usually based on whether or not that dog has a good chance of being adopted. The numbers are a fact and cannot be avoided regardless of sentiment.

They simply do not go around euthanizing animals without a very good reason. The name of the organization is the ASPCA which stands for the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. It's simply a sad fact of life that some have to be euthanized because of overpopulation. It is simply impossible to save every single animal out there, which is why they work so hard on educating the public on proper care, and spaying/neutering.

[Catty1]

Jess - when was Chad's last tetanus shot? That's my only concern.

How much is a behaviourist going to cost? And where will Biggles stay?

For those who missed it, Chad went through a nasty bout with flesh-eating disease, chemo (I remember that thread)- and the reason they took so long to find dogs with no aggression is because a bite literally can kill Chad if another infection sets up.

He is now understandably terrified to be in the same house with Biggles.

I am surprised no one is blasting the shelter because they apparently lied about this. Jess, did you find out if they did lie?

In any case, Jess and Chad have their hands full with a human "behaviouralist", and a dog they were told was not aggressive.

Again, it's between Jess and the vet - if the vet has any bright ideas, that would be great.

Take care all.

[Taz_Zoee]

People have been saying the shelter lied. I am wondering if the people who brought them back last didn't lie....just to save Mr B's life. Not that that would be okay, but ya know what I mean?
Regardless, someone lied and it could have cost Chad his life and now it is costing Mr Biggles his life.

[king2005]

Jess - when was Chad's last tetanus shot? That's my only concern.

How much is a behaviourist going to cost? And where will Biggles stay?

For those who missed it, Chad went through a nasty bout with flesh-eating disease, chemo (I remember that thread)- and the reason they took so long to find dogs with no aggression is because a bite literally can kill Chad if another infection sets up.

He is now understandably terrified to be in the same house with Biggles.

I am surprised no one is blasting the shelter because they apparently lied about this. Jess, did you find out if they did lie?

In any case, Jess and Chad have their hands full with a human "behaviouralist", and a dog they were told was not aggressive.

Again, it's between Jess and the vet - if the vet has any bright ideas, that would be great.

Take care all.

It was a couple months ago, so hes good in that department.

I don't think I could find out if they lied.. I'm sure the other people who took them home, prob. lied & said it was Bears meds, cause giving her her meds is a joke.

Saddly I can't do squat regardless what the vet says. Mr. Biggles has to go.. if I give him up for attacking, he'll be PTS alone with strangers... If i go in with him, then I can atleast be with him, to make the passing easier. Its the least i can do in this horrible situation.

[DrKym]

What time is the appt Jess?

[king2005]

What time is the appt Jess?

There is no set time. I just have to show up with him.

I wish I could just wake up & everything will be ok.

[DrKym]

There is no set time. I just have to show up with him.

I wish I could just wake up & everything will be ok.

I know you don't believe this now, but it will be ok, someday. You have a lot on your plate right now. Life isn't easy, and it isn't a dress rehearsal, but it can be a wonderful thing.

I am praying that soon your dark place will be filled with much light and a happier heart. Candles are lit here for all of those that is affecting, in your home and here on PT.

[wolf_Q]

This is a very sad situation. I really don't know what to say. Smokey bit my sister (provoked..she tried to take a bone from him and we all knew he was food aggressive) bad enough that she had to have plastic surgery on her nose. He bit other family members numerous times (none very bad) after that as well, he could not be groomed without a muzzle the entire time when he was older. But we had him years (since he was a pup) before that occurred, we were advised to have him PTS because of it but we did not. I would not classify his bites as "attacks." I really don't know what I would do if I had a dog for only a few weeks and they attacked a human unprovoked. Unless you are in that situation I don't think it is really fair to judge. I've groomed dogs long enough to say that a small dog is very capable of leaving a 4 inch gash.

[Alasse]

As someone who has had to make the same decision...i sympathize with you

There is a definate difference between a bite and an attack...been bit a few times..i can handle that....but when your attacked....believe me you'll never ever forget it

[finn's mom]

Mr. Biggles will be at the bridge, feeling young and alert, with no fear or pain.

[sprokett]

wat type of dog is Mr. biggles

[Lori Jordan]

I think a JRT x

[JenBKR]

I really don't know what I would do if I had a dog for only a few weeks and they attacked a human unprovoked. Unless you are in that situation I don't think it is really fair to judge.

Agree 100% :)

[critter crazy]

So...any update??? Is mr. Biggles at the Rainow Bridge??

[Lobodeb]

This whole situation makes me sick. I'm curious what your intention was in posting this thread?

1) It sounds as if you have way too much going on in your life to have pets right now.

2) It seems as if Bear and Mr. Biggles' are too much dog for you to handle. They should have gone to an owner with more aggression experience.

3) If Chad's health is so unstable with Flesh eating, why have pets in the first place?

4) Again, if he is at risk for flesh eating, why has he not sought medical attention for the bite?

I saw a program once where a dog would only attack a certain person. Come to find out the person approached the dog in a unique way that triggered the dog. A behavior therapist was able to pick up on that and correct the problem.

I'm very saddened that you aren't/weren't willing to try any of the suggestions here. You made up your mind to put Mr. Biggles to sleep despite some very good advice.

What bothers me the most is that while you've been quick to respond to other posts in the thread, you won't update on whether Mr. Biggles is at the bridge or not, yet you posted a thread about Bear this morning not even mentioning or seeming the least bit saddened that Mr. Biggles life was ended (if that has indeed happened).

IMO, Mr. Biggles is better off at the bridge than to stay living with you. I'm sorry for sounding terribly harsh, but I just don't feel enough was to prevent this from happening.

Please understand that I know some dogs cannot be saved and must be PTS, but I'm failing to see how a 12 pound dog can do so much damage and can't be helped.

Godspeed to the bridge Mr. Biggles.

[borzoimom]

.. What bothers me the most is that while you've been quick to respond to other posts in the thread, you won't update on whether Mr. Biggles is at the bridge or not, yet you posted a thread about Bear this morning not even mentioning or seeming the least bit saddened that Mr. Biggles life was ended (if that has indeed happened)..

EXACTLY..

[Lori Jordan]

This whole situation makes me sick. I'm curious what your intention was in posting this thread?

1) It sounds as if you have way too much going on in your life to have pets right now.

2) It seems as if Bear and Mr. Biggles' are too much dog for you to handle. They should have gone to an owner with more aggression experience.

3) If Chad's health is so unstable with Flesh eating, why have pets in the first place?

4) Again, if he is at risk for flesh eating, why has he not sought medical attention for the bite?

I saw a program once where a dog would only attack a certain person. Come to find out the person approached the dog in a unique way that triggered the dog. A behavior therapist was able to pick up on that and correct the problem.

I'm very saddened that you aren't/weren't willing to try any of the suggestions here. You made up your mind to put Mr. Biggles to sleep despite some very good advice.

What bothers me the most is that while you've been quick to respond to other posts in the thread, you won't update on whether Mr. Biggles is at the bridge or not, yet you posted a thread about Bear this morning not even mentioning or seeming the least bit saddened that Mr. Biggles life was ended (if that has indeed happened).

IMO, Mr. Biggles is better off at the bridge than to stay living with you. I'm sorry for sounding terribly harsh, but I just don't feel enough was to prevent this from happening.

Please understand that I know some dogs cannot be saved and must be PTS, but I'm failing to see how a 12 pound dog can do so much damage and can't be helped.

Godspeed to the bridge Mr. Biggles.

AGREED,

[JenBKR]

Mr. Biggles is not at the bridge yet.

[cyber-sibes]

I'm so sorry to hear this. I'm not going to judge your decision, and hope Chad recovers. My brother adores dogs and has owned at least 5 large breeds, but I swear everytime he walks past a small dog they bite him. thankfully no one ever had their dog put down because of it. Maybe Mr. Biggles just needs to be in a male-free home. The dogs that have bitten my brother all had issues with men.

[borzoimom]

Mr. Biggles is not at the bridge yet.
so- all this drama yesterday was for what??? To upset us?? Every suggestion was fought with- and even so was support.. HONESTLY- I am so done with this..

[Lori Jordan]

I told you yesteday BMOM

[JenBKR]

so- all this drama yesterday was for what??? To upset us?? Every suggestion was fought with- and even so was support.. HONESTLY- I am so done with this..


Did you not understand the 'yet' part :confused:

[JenBKR]

All I said was that I know Mr. B is not at the bridge as of right this second.

I find it amusing that the people who keep saying they are done in this thread continue to post.

I simply think it's wrong to judge, we are not in the position that Jess is in. But for the grace of God go I........................

[king2005]

I never asked for any help in this thread, NOT once cause I already knew my options. I posted cause I was very upset over the whole thing.

If I was able to make it to the Toronto HS to have him put down I would have done it yesterday. I was 30 mins late getting home due to traffic & then it was hopeless cause of rush hour traffic. I don't live in the same city I got the dogs from. I'm against the shelter thats in this city so I will not support it (they support the BSL & are quite nasty if you even mention a pitty).

So I have no choice to wait until tomorrow.

I haven't repled here cause of a sick PM I was getting. They honestly think that keeping Mr. Biggles locked up is good. Umm no, on so many levels.

Aggressive dogs are NOT wanted in our home, Not sure If I can type that any more clearer. Aggressive dogs were NEVER wanted in our home. Thats why we spent so much time picking out dogs & asking questions (5hrs worth!). We made it VERY clear to the shelter we would not tollerate Aggression period! So stop saying I shouldn't have gotten an aggressive dog, we didn't know & the shelter didn't tell us he was.

[Karen]

I am going to close this thread.

[Lori Jordan]

Were abouts in Missasauga do you live,I will come and get the dog myslef if i have too,There are many options were i live to get him help and im only about 5 hours from you.