Insane barking... Update: Problem solved..NOW disscussing feedings/crating/etc on pg4

[king2005]

Mr. Biggle just wont stop. We had no idea his barking was as bad as it was. When we are gone, he barks almost non-stop & is PISSING off the neighbours to the point they threatened to call the cops on us & report us to the complex.

We are now crate trainning him, as he keeps peeing & pooping everywhere & he'll bark non-stop at night. Even when the crate is in the guys room, he barks & barks & barks... He cannot be free in the bedroom as he'll pee & poop everywhere.

We need to fix this issue somewhat quickly, as we don't want to be forced to get rid of Mr. Biggles or fined.

I know this is a HORRIBLE sounding divice, but is it as bad as it sounds??
Shock Collar (http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444177 8892&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302032911&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023689&bmUID=1169477271418&itemNo=0&In=Dog&N=2032911&Ne=2#detail)

The reviews are lacking, so I don't know what to think. But we're getting kind of desperate to the point we'll try nearly anything.

PLEASE advise

[Karen]

Do a search for separation anxiety - then work at the root of the problem, the shock collar will probably do no good without working on WHY he's barking.

[lvpets2002]

:) I for sure understand what you are going thru.. I have a Ausi that is the same way.. I bought one of those collars too.. It is all still in the box unused.. Just couldnt bring myself to ever put it on her.. So what I do is go out with her when she is barking & play ball or run around the yard with her.. Its gets her tired and she has forgot what she was barking at && its good exercise for Mom here.. :D

[king2005]

Do a search for separation anxiety - then work at the root of the problem, the shock collar will probably do no good without working on WHY he's barking.

I read a website about separation anxiety, & he does 2 of the 3 actions... He pees & poos & barks non-stop... Luckly he doesn't have the 3rd (distructive).

It said it can take up to 3 weeks to solve the problem, but I fear our neighbours wont put up with it for that long.

Has anyone ever tried talking to upset neighbours about a dogs separation anxiety(barking) & that its being worked on but can take several weeks to solve? (they are Polish if that means anything)

[Karen]

You can always try. Explain separation anxiety, and what you are doing to stop it for the long term. It cannot hurt at this point. Also explain that you didn't know at first that he was barking while you were gone, and that you were horrified to realize he was. The explanation and apology, coupled with a plate of cookies or a few flowers, might buy you enough time to work this out with Mr. Biggles.

[Freedom]

A chewy / rawhide treat in with him, a blanket over the top of his crate, a sweatshirt with your scent on it in with him.

Rescue Remedy to calm him until the training takes effect.

Just a few thoughts; I have not had to deal with this myself.

[king2005]

You can always try. Explain separation anxiety, and what you are doing to stop it for the long term. It cannot hurt at this point. Also explain that you didn't know at first that he was barking while you were gone, and that you were horrified to realize he was. The explanation and apology, coupled with a plate of cookies or a few flowers, might buy you enough time to work this out with Mr. Biggles.

Chad & I love to bake, so cookies, a sorry note + info & a chat is deffently a go for tomorrow!!

I hope this works.

[JenBKR]

Great ideas from Freedom, one more I thought of would be a kong filled with something he really enjoys. That helps a lot of dogs. Good luck!

[king2005]

A chewy / rawhide treat in with him, a blanket over the top of his crate, a sweatshirt with your scent on it in with him.

Rescue Remedy to calm him until the training takes effect.

Just a few thoughts; I have not had to deal with this myself.

Covering the crate will be ok? I feared he wouldn't be able to get enough air or something. But I'll try it for sure.

With the shirt thing, should we each (there are 3 of us) put a shrt in the crate, or just one of us?

I'll stop at Petsmart to see if they have any Rescue Remedy (I recall hearing about it here before.. will google it in a few to get more info)


Thanks for the help everyone

[critter crazy]

I think you have gotten many great ideas, and they should work! The cookies,a nd a chat should work great! as long as you explain that you just got te dog from the shelter, you never knew the porb existed, and that you are taking numerous steps to correct the problem! Let us know how it goes!

[borzoimom]

When I lived in town in a townhouse row, the dog on the end would bark all day as well.. Suddenly it stopped- .. One day I was out walking Hottie when I saw the dog in the window- realized the dog was barking but I could not hear it. I found out later the dog was "debarked".. ( NOW PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE A STROKE YET..).. Later I was talking to the owner, and at first I was outraged for such a procedure, until I heard the owners words. They were faced with getting rid of their dog- even moving before they dog still had problems when alone- after all failed attempts, but loving their dog, and wishing to keep the dog in their family, their vet debarked the dog.
I had a dog that was debarked before- that way when I bought the dog- and it makes a raspy/almost whisper type bark- enough for some noise, but its silent. I am only tossing this out for one reason- training takes time- and I am not sure how much time you have. Also remember- this is a surgery and its permanent. Vets will do it if it means without it, the dog would loose their family. Its only done to save the " relationship" between the owner and dog. Most vets WILL NOT do this for someone that has 'a kennel' of dogs and want quiet- this is done to save the relationship to allow you to keep your dog and continue to work on the problem with seperation anxiety training- toys to keep busy and radios on for noise etc..
I expect to get slammed for this idea- and only state it because the title " before the cops come"... etc.. You obviously love your dog very much- and I am trying to throw out another idea ..
Other options such as dog day care etc are the first ideas that came to my mind- I am tossing out the last option.
My daughter adopted a papillion- my daughter was getting complaints and although we were working on it, she got a final notice on her apartment. We looked into this. Luckily her schedule changed so basically the dog is never left, meanwhile training continued, and now he is a lovely little companion with no complaints- but it came awfully close. He was actually going to come to my house during the week...
It is a surgical procedure. You will have to be home - or someone for 3 days with the dog to prevent barking while they heal. And needs to be done by a vet that has done this before so there is no scar tissue. And remember- barking is a form of communication so you need to consider this as well...
( now I am ducking behind under my table for the down fall to this post- but I refuse to delete it- its an option seldom done- seldom discussed- but assures that the dog owner relationship can continue as I have noooo idea how much you really mean the cops are coming...)

[king2005]

When I lived in town in a townhouse row, the dog on the end would bark all day as well.. Suddenly it stopped- .. One day I was out walking Hottie when I saw the dog in the window- realized the dog was barking but I could not hear it. I found out later the dog was "debarked".. ( NOW PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE A STROKE YET..).. Later I was talking to the owner, and at first I was outraged for such a procedure, until I heard the owners words. They were faced with getting rid of their dog- even moving before they dog still had problems when alone- after all failed attempts, but loving their dog, and wishing to keep the dog in their family, their vet debarked the dog.
I had a dog that was debarked before- that way when I bought the dog- and it makes a raspy/almost whisper type bark- enough for some noise, but its silent. I am only tossing this out for one reason- training takes time- and I am not sure how much time you have. Also remember- this is a surgery and its permanent. Vets will do it if it means without it, the dog would loose their family. Its only done to save the " relationship" between the owner and dog. Most vets WILL NOT do this for someone that has 'a kennel' of dogs and want quiet- this is done to save the relationship to allow you to keep your dog and continue to work on the problem with seperation anxiety training- toys to keep busy and radios on for noise etc..
I expect to get slammed for this idea- and only state it because the title " before the cops come"... etc.. You obviously love your dog very much- and I am trying to throw out another idea ..
Other options such as dog day care etc are the first ideas that came to my mind- I am tossing out the last option.
My daughter adopted a papillion- my daughter was getting complaints and although we were working on it, she got a final notice on her apartment. We looked into this. Luckily her schedule changed so basically the dog is never left, meanwhile training continued, and now he is a lovely little companion with no complaints- but it came awfully close. He was actually going to come to my house during the week...
It is a surgical procedure. You will have to be home - or someone for 3 days with the dog to prevent barking while they heal. And needs to be done by a vet that has done this before so there is no scar tissue. And remember- barking is a form of communication so you need to consider this as well...
( now I am ducking behind under my table for the down fall to this post- but I refuse to delete it- its an option seldom done- seldom discussed- but assures that the dog owner relationship can continue as I have noooo idea how much you really mean the cops are coming...)

This idea was going to be our absolute last resort (if we got a final notice kind of thing).

We honestly have no idea how serious the neighbours are about calling the cops (we don't know them)... We have only lived in this townhouse complex for 2 weeks & we've had the dogs 1 week.

We refuse to put the dogs through the shelter BS again. People have adopted these 2 in the past & returned them (so we were told). BUT we also can't loose our home, as we cannot afford to pick up & move again & saddly we have to come first, but will fight hard to correct the dogs & keep them in our family.

We're just all really stressed out because of this, but we're trying.

[borzoimom]

Honey- you have the right to keep your dogs.. Complexes are hard, and I know it can get serious real fast. It is a option..
Now remember- this doesnt SOLVE the inward problem. The dog is still anxious when you leave but it does solve the problems with the neighbors. YOu will still need to work with things so the dog learns to relax when you are gone- but it does allow you to keep the relationship.
I know you love your dogs-..

[king2005]

Honey- you have the right to keep your dogs.. Complexes are hard, and I know it can get serious real fast. It is a option..
Now remember- this doesnt SOLVE the inward problem. The dog is still anxious when you leave but it does solve the problems with the neighbors. YOu will still need to work with things so the dog learns to relax when you are gone- but it does allow you to keep the relationship.
I know you love your dogs-..

I know its not going to solve Mr. Biggles problem, but it'll give us time to work on that (only if things get that bad, I hope they don't) in a proper manor... I still vote no to the procedure, as we like when they bark at the door, as we live in a not so nice Getto (6 murders last year, 5 were gang member shoot outs), so they'll keep creeps away from our home (even though the dogs are harmless, creeps don't know that).

At lunch time I'm going to petsmart to buy some of that rescue remedy.. Both dogs will get it, so Bear will be relaxed too, as when Mr. Biggles gets worked up, she gets stressed & poops on the floor (but not nearly as bad as Mr. Biggles, she'll try to hold it & will only poop a little at a time).

I just need to call a vet to see if the rescue remedy can be mixed with Bears Hypothyroid medication.. Can never be too safe, I don't want there to be a toxic mix or something.

[cyber-sibes]

There will probably be people here who will get on me for it, but I DID use a shock collar with my rottie/aussie, Rosie. She barked a lot, especially at night. She was fine as a puppy, but started barking as an adult. We worked really hard at trying to train her out of it, but still found myself getting up at 1 am or 2 am and spending an hour quieting her down. This went on for months. So we did resort to a shock collar. I used it on me first, and it did surprise you with a shock, but it didn't "hurt". You have to train them with the collar. Ours came with a video on how to train. Using it solved the barking problem quickly. The one we used had a progressive shock, so it started out very mild. if the dog kept barking, it got stronger. The most I ever heard her bark in a row was twice. After a while, all I had to do was strap it on her (which I did every night) without turning it on, and she knew to be quiet. She also got to know that "Quiet, no bark" meant no barking. I always rewarded her being quiet with lavish attention & treats.

I would certainly invest in a shock collar (ours was about $75.00) before I'd consider de-barking a dog- that seems "shocking" to me. :eek:

[borzoimom]

King- get those plug ins used for a dog that is nervous.. I know the procedure is the last resort- ...

[king2005]

There will probably be people here who will get on me for it, but I DID use a shock collar with my rottie/aussie, Rosie. She barked a lot, especially at night. She was fine as a puppy, but started barking as an adult. We worked really hard at trying to train her out of it, but still found myself getting up at 1 am or 2 am and spending an hour quieting her down. This went on for months. So we did resort to a shock collar. I used it on me first, and it did surprise you with a shock, but it didn't "hurt". You have to train them with the collar. Ours came with a video on how to train. Using it solved the barking problem quickly. The one we used had a progressive shock, so it started out very mild. if the dog kept barking, it got stronger. The most I ever heard her bark in a row was twice. After a while, all I had to do was strap it on her (which I did every night) without turning it on, and she knew to be quiet. She also got to know that "Quiet, no bark" meant no barking. I always rewarded her being quiet with lavish attention & treats.

I would certainly invest in a shock collar (ours was about $75.00) before I'd consider de-barking a dog- that seems "shocking" to me. :eek:

This will be tried before we go the de-barking rout by far!!! The debarking was only a last resort idea...

Please don't get me wrong, I want to try to solve this properly first.. But having a plan B & a plan C never hurts incase Plan A doesn't work in time. I don't want to be panicking on what options I have last min, so planning a head is a smart route.

[king2005]

King- get those plug ins used for a dog that is nervous.. I know the procedure is the last resort- ...

Plug-ins??

[Freedom]

I had another thought, and I'm glad I got back on the PC after reading all this!

If the cookies and neighborly chat don't work, maybe contact a behaviourist. Then, if things escalate and the police get involved, being able to show you got someone official involved and he / she estimates it will take "this long" to fix, may help. The place where you adopted may be able to recommend someone.

Once upon a time, a new young mother had a baby with colic. The baby cried and screamed and basically drove everyone crazy around her. The neighbors complained to the police, worried that maybe the baby was being hurt. Fortunately, the mom and dad had already taken the baby in to the doctor, had the diagnosis of colic, and were in the process of switching foods. They could say it would take XXX amount of time - just a few days. The police DID contact the pediatrician, just to make sure this was all true.

I was that baby.

Good luck!
Sandra

[king2005]

I had another thought, and I'm glad I got back on the PC after reading all this!

If the cookies and neighborly chat don't work, maybe contact a behaviourist. Then, if things escalate and the police get involved, being able to show you got someone official involved and he / she estimates it will take "this long" to fix, may help. The place where you adopted may be able to recommend someone.

Once upon a time, a new young mother had a baby with colic. The baby cried and screamed and basically drove everyone crazy around her. The neighbors complained to the police, worried that maybe the baby was being hurt. Fortunately, the mom and dad had already taken the baby in to the doctor, had the diagnosis of colic, and were in the process of switching foods. They could say it would take XXX amount of time - just a few days. The police DID contact the pediatrician, just to make sure this was all true.

I was that baby.

Good luck!
Sandra

Thats a wonderful idea!!!!
I'll be doing some phone calls for sure :D

[luvofallhorses]

please do NOT use a shock collar! they are very inhumane! :( what about giving him a kong or some kind of indestructable toy?? my hound, Buster barks A LOT.. but I would NEVER use a shock collar on him! He's a hound and that's what they do is bark. that's how dogs express themselves..

[king2005]

please do NOT use a shock collar! they are very inhumane! :( what about giving him a kong or some kind of indestructable toy?? my hound, Buster barks A LOT.. but I would NEVER use a shock collar on him! He's a hound and that's what they do is bark. that's how dogs express themselves..

He doesn't play with toys, so that wont work.

Its not like hes barking here & there.. this is barking thats lasting for hours & hours & hours on end. We were told he was a non-barker, but thatsar from the truth. Now that hes part of the family, it needs to be corrected before we either loose our home or we're forced to return him to the pound (which isn't an option we plan on doing!!!)... We love our dogs & they deserve a chance. + the collars son't electricute them (there is no pain).. its a shock factor, as in WOW WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT!! THATS UNCOOL, I WON'T BARK AGAIN... now I know it doesn't work on all dogs... There is also several settings(6 I believe on many)... If you think its gonna zap the dog like on TV (Click I think was the movie??) your wrong.

Its still not an option I'm all that willing to do, but its one of those plan A/B/C's I was talking about.

[pitc9]

here's a link to the plug in,
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=13043

Instead of the shock collar, (where any noise can set it off and can shock the dog for no reason) Why not try a Citronella collar?

http://www.muttmart.com/CitronellaBarkCollar.html?gclid=CKjPlqbf9IkCFRTWJA od209TbQ

Do you leave a radio/Tv on when your gone?
I hide treats all around my house when I'm gone to keep my dogs from going crazy.

[luvofallhorses]

well, I see that he's a small dog and small dogs tend to bark A LOT. why not use the cintronella spray collar that is more humane like Angie suggested? I know my mom's dog, Ginger does bark a lot.. take him for more walks and play with him more, take him to dog parks, have play dates or something for him, etc. to prevent him from getting bored. Do all you can to ware him out.

[king2005]

here's a link to the plug in,
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=13043

Instead of the shock collar, (where any noise can set it off and can shock the dog for no reason) Why not try a Citronella collar?

http://www.muttmart.com/CitronellaBarkCollar.html?gclid=CKjPlqbf9IkCFRTWJA od209TbQ

Do you leave a radio/Tv on when your gone?
I hide treats all around my house when I'm gone to keep my dogs from going crazy.

That plug in sounds really neat!!
I'll start leaving the tv on in the livingroom as it faces the dogs couch (ya they have the best couch in the house lol)... Which channel would be best for a dog? the menu channel? as it wont have all kinds of screaming or crazy things...

Treats are a no go... Bear is Hypothyroid & needs so loose a lot of weight, as shes at a health risk (shes nearly double her breeds healthy weight!) + we're trying to get them on a feeding schedual & the treats will stop them from eatting thier kibble (took a week to just get them to start eatting a proper amount of food).

[borzoimom]

I leave the 70's music channel on for my dogs .. ( sorry- showing my age..) They know they hear that channel - go to sleep. I start when I am home and leave the channel on- pretty soon they forget I may not be in the house..

[king2005]

well, I see that he's a small dog and small dogs tend to bark A LOT. why not use the cintronella spray collar that is more humane like Angie suggested? I know my mom's dog, Ginger does bark a lot.. take him for more walks and play with him more, take him to dog parks, have play dates or something for him, etc. to prevent him from getting bored. Do all you can to ware him out.

He goes for 3 walks before lunch time & another 3 after 3pm till we go to bed about midnight or 2am.

Andrew takes them for a walk at 5am.. I take them out at 7am & Chad takes them out at about 11am-noon... then when Andrew gets home at 3pm, he takes them out, then I take them out at 6pm & Chad & I (or our friend Karen) takes them out around midnight.

Mr. Biggles isn't into playing.. he just wants to cuddle & be patted.. so he gets that all the time.

Dog parks are a no go right now, as they are simi-dog agressive. This issue will be delt with starting in the spring, so I don't slip on ice & loose crontol at the dog park. One dog will go at a time & will be muzzled & leashed as a precaution, until they slowly learn that other dogs are a lot of fun :D Mr. Biggles is the big dog agressor.. Bear only gets agressive when Mr. Biggles tells her too. + at the park they'll learn distraction obidence (that'll be fun lol). & of course I wont go into the park without talking to other owners about socilizing the dogs.. I want the ok from them verbally, so they can keep a closer eye on their dog when near mine & possibly help me with Bear. I think Bear will do really well, as shes not agressive at all when Mr. Biggles isn't around.

[king2005]

I leave the 70's music channel on for my dogs .. ( sorry- showing my age..) They know they hear that channel - go to sleep. I start when I am home and leave the channel on- pretty soon they forget I may not be in the house..

I'll get a cheap radio or I'll make a playlist on my computer for the dogs, as I have a lot of ABBA, Kenny Rogers, etc. kind of music :D

[Kfamr]

I personally would rehome my dog before mutilating them, I can't imagine anyone even suggesting that. That totally shocked me.

Other than the debarking, you have gotten some excellent advice. Yes, the shock collar is as bad as it sounds. He has seperation anxiety and a shock collar would only make it worse.

[borzoimom]

If you loved the dog- and a medical fix would work- I would.. They love the dog- and rehoming is NOT an option... " just get rid of the dog"- is that the mentality you are endorsing?????

[Kfamr]

If you loved the dog- and a medical fix would work- I would.. They love the dog- and rehoming is NOT an option... " just get rid of the dog"- is that the mentality you are endorsing?????


EXCUSE ME? You are not putting those words in my mouth lady.

Mutilating the dog is NOT loving the dog. I have never and will never endorse getting rid of an animal without a valid reason. If my "last option" were to mutilate my dog, I would rather find someone who would be able to train and care for him/her properly - or someone out in the country where barking would not be a problem.

However, Jess's problem with Mr. Biggles sounds like a minute one and should easily be fixed with time. No inhumane mutilating or rehoming should be needed.

[Karen]

If you loved the dog- and a medical fix would work- I would.. They love the dog- and rehoming is NOT an option... " just get rid of the dog"- is that the mentality you are endorsing?????

Nobody said they were endorsing that.

And Jess has gotten a lot of information here, which was her intent - to find out what the options and solutions might be.

I hope her neighbors accept the apology and allow a little time to work on the separation anxiety. Poor pup is 8 years old, and a recent pound rescue - anyone might have "separation anxiety" too if they were him!

[CathyBogart]

I'm having the same problem right now, my neighbors have complained to the landlord twice about Jasper's barking. He will pee and poop all over when left alone out of his crate, and frankly I am tired of cleaning the carpet all the time.

I've gotten several good suggestions, but what seems to have helped the most the fastest is working with him on obedience. His confidence is slowly improving, and as his confidence improves, I can leave him for longer amounts of time.

I've been pretending to leave, and standing out side of the door for a short period of time, then coming back in before he starts to bark. I've been able to bring that time up to about ten minutes from about thirty seconds in just a few days.

I've also made a point of ignoring him for parts of the day while I'm home, shutting him in the bedroom while I hang out in the living room, and ignoring him for the ten minutes leading up to me leaving and ten minutes after I get home. The result is that he's not quite so out of control happy about me getting home.

I know you said treats weren't an option, but I thought I'd throw this in there too. I got Jasper an Everlasting Treat Ball, which is a rubber ball which has custom treats that you jam into either end. It takes him about a week to go through one set of treats, and he's a pretty strong chewer.

Since you need a solution NOW, you could talk to your vet about getting him a mild sedative or anti-anxiety medication. These are meant to be temporary measures that you take so the neighbors don't kill your dog while you are working on solving the root of the problem. It sounds like these may be the quickest most effective option while you work on helping him feel more confident while you're not with him. (Star takes one called Clomepramine to help with her panic attacks...she once ate her way through a $2,000 solid oak door during a panic attack!)

I have more thoughts, but for fear of being ripped to shreds for my opinion, I'll PM them to you.

[luvofallhorses]

I agree with Kay on this one. I would NEVER consider de-barking my dogs in a million years. like I said, it's how they express themselves.

[applesmom]

As an absolute last resort, and only after everything else has been tried, I would not rule out debarking either.

An eight year old dog that has been placed unsuccessfully in multiple homes only to be dumped back in the shelter over and over again has run out of chances of ever finding a forever home until the problem is solved. To dump him and his problems on another unsuspecting owner rather than have him debarked if every other method had failed, would only add to his insecurities and would most certainly be the prelude to a death sentence!

As caring and determined as King2005 is, Mr Biggles problem will be resolved without her having to give more than a passing thought to either of those choices.

Good luck with finding a positive resoulution King2005! Mr Biggles is a lucky dog to have finally found such a caring owner.

[borzoimom]

As an absolute last resort, and only after everything else has been tried, I would not rule out debarking either.

An eight year old dog that has been placed unsuccessfully in multiple homes only to be dumped back in the shelter over and over again has run out of chances of ever finding a forever home until the problem is solved. To dump him and his problems on another unsuspecting owner rather than have him debarked if every other method had failed, would only add to his insecurities and would most certainly be the prelude to a death sentence!

As caring and determined as King2005 is, Mr Biggles problem will be resolved without her having to give more than a passing thought to either of those choices.

Good luck with finding a positive resoulution King2005! Mr Biggles is a lucky dog to have finally found such a caring owner.
I agree...

[king2005]

As an absolute last resort, and only after everything else has been tried, I would not rule out debarking either.

An eight year old dog that has been placed unsuccessfully in multiple homes only to be dumped back in the shelter over and over again has run out of chances of ever finding a forever home until the problem is solved. To dump him and his problems on another unsuspecting owner rather than have him debarked if every other method had failed, would only add to his insecurities and would most certainly be the prelude to a death sentence!

As caring and determined as King2005 is, Mr Biggles problem will be resolved without her having to give more than a passing thought to either of those choices.

Good luck with finding a positive resoulution King2005! Mr Biggles is a lucky dog to have finally found such a caring owner.

Thank you.. Its still not my fav choice if it comes to that, but its better then risking his life & sanity.

Here is a mug of the little guy
& no offence to my little man, hes not the most handsom guy around, with his extra teeth & screwed up jaw... But hes such a sweet dog
http://jess.the-dog-dish.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2622&g2_serialNumber=2&g2_GALLERYSID=f76a30a0f3bc0c17e9abc8e011615740

I'm gonna let his fur grow back out nice & LONG, so hes no longer pink & rat like lol

[finn's mom]

He's precious. I can see why you brought him into your family. I am truly sorry you're having to go through all this! I'm sure your stress levels aren't helping the situation either, I'd be going nuts trying to figure something out. I am not even going to voice an opinion publicly about the debarking and shock collars because people just get flat out nasty over things like that. If you wanna know how I feel, I'll pm you. :) But, I honestly don't see the situation getting to that point, so I hope the debate is over (something like 75% of what people worry and argue about never actually happens anyway!).

I know when I was training Finn as a puppy, I trained him how to bark on command so that I could tell him when to hush on command as well. I came up with a word and a hand signal (equipped with TONS of treats, but you could just use Mr Biggles' regular kibble if he can't have treats and give him one piece of kibble at a time) and he learned pretty quickly that if he barked when I asked him to, he got praised and stuff. Anyway, it's another thought. I wish you the best of luck. Poor little man.

[elizabethann]

Here is a mug of the little guy
& no offence to my little man, hes not the most handsom guy around, with his extra teeth & screwed up jaw... But hes such a sweet dog
http://jess.the-dog-dish.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2622&g2_serialNumber=2&g2_GALLERYSID=f76a30a0f3bc0c17e9abc8e011615740

I'm gonna let his fur grow back out nice & LONG, so hes no longer pink & rat like lol

Huh? :confused: I think he is adorable. He reminds me of Fenway (teeth and all). I think he would look even more like Fenway once his hair grows long. Good luck on the barking situation.

[pitc9]

If you loved the dog- and a medical fix would work- I would.. They love the dog- and rehoming is NOT an option... " just get rid of the dog"- is that the mentality you are endorsing?????

"If you loved the dog..."
The thought of mutilating the dog would never enter one's mind.

What if a dog thought it's owner talked too much??
Should it have their voice box removed??

What do you think the shelter you adopted him from would this of this?

[borzoimom]

lolllllllll.. I am not laughing at you but the statement- I have had a few neighbors that talked too much.. lol. and one lady- I swear you could hear her laugh through the walls when I lived in this apartment.. However- they could not call the cops-.. The rental office, because of the other apartment that had a baby there, they sent the people a letter to resonably control the noise after 10pm..

[kittycats_delight]

before I say anything I just want to let you all know I am not getting involved in an arguement so I am keeping my personal opinions to myself.

I wish you all the luck in the world with Mr. Biggles and hope time will be granted to you to work on his issues.

I basically just wanted to make a comment about pitc9 statement concerning the shelter.

From all I know the Toronto Humane Society is a kill shelter. And in that everyone knows that once an animal goes out their door their main concern is that the animal doesn't come back through it. If a surgery is going to keep that animal from being returned to them then I don't think they would have much of a problem with it. That is obviously not the right way to be but if it means keeping an animal out of their already over-crowded shelter than so be it. If Mr. Biggles was returned to them because of the barking situation once again do you think he would have much of a chance of getting adopted again? I highly doubt it as they would most likely see him as being not adoptable and he would be given an early ticket to the bridge.

I really hope your neighbors will be cooperative and give you the time you need. Exhaust all possiblities and good luck. Mr. Biggles deserves a good happy home and a chance at a normal life.

[pitc9]

lolllllllll.. I am not laughing at you but the statement- .

:confused: :eek:
I'm beginning to find you and your comments very rude.
You take mutilating animals very lightly and I find it very disturbing to say the least.

[pitc9]

I basically just wanted to make a comment about pitc9 statement concerning the shelter.

From all I know the Toronto Humane Society is a kill shelter. And in that everyone knows that once an animal goes out their door their main concern is that the animal doesn't come back through it.

Is that true for this shelter in particular?
Or is this an opinion of yours about kill shelters in general?
(I don't know if you've had any dealings with this shelter... that's why I ask, I don't know anything about the Toronto Humane Society.)

[borzoimom]

:confused: :eek:
I'm beginning to find you and your comments very rude.
You take mutilating animals very lightly and I find it very disturbing to say the least.
No- I do not take it lightly- as a matter of fact- its only a last resort to keep from rehoming the dogs.. And even in all my years, I have only met two out of all of them - TWO dogs that had this done..

[king2005]

Is that true for this shelter in particular?
Or is this an opinion of yours about kill shelters in general?
(I don't know if you've had any dealings with this shelter... that's why I ask, I don't know anything about the Toronto Humane Society.)

They show it on TV

[kittycats_delight]

Is that true for this shelter in particular?
Or is this an opinion of yours about kill shelters in general?
(I don't know if you've had any dealings with this shelter... that's why I ask, I don't know anything about the Toronto Humane Society.)

I myself have not dealt with them but I have friend and family that have. My uncle had a gsdx that had major behavioral problems and he contacted the shelter about returning him as he has a small child. They told him that the dog had been returned to them twice before and if he came back again he would not be put up for adoption again. So my uncle asked for an alternative solution and they gave him the name and number of a behavioralist and obedience trainer. So instead of my uncle returned the dog as he did not want to see him PTS be worked with him with the behavioralist and the trainer. It took awhile but they corrected his behavior and he was a wonderful companion to my uncle until my uncle passed away and he is now with my uncles best friend.

And for the most part this is my opinion on most kill shelters. I did deal with the humane society in the city I was from in Newfoundland and it was all the same thing. With the amount of animals they have they cannot bother too much to work with those that are problem adoptees. If a dog or cat for that matter has been returned several times it is bye bye baby. You are just not worth the hassel.

Sad but true at least in my dealings with kill shelters and those that I have known.

[borzoimom]

kittycats delight is right on returns. They would put a pet down as well that was adopted out especially twice before..

[Ginger's Mom]

I am sorry if I missed the post...how did you manage to solve the problem so quickly?

[critter crazy]

I am sorry if I missed the post...how did you manage to solve the problem so quickly?

hmmm..i was gonna ask te same thing! I am confused, how the problem was solved???:confused:

[ramanth]

Chipper had mild seperation anxiety. The trick is, once you put them in their crate, ignore them.

We were putting him in his crate, then cooing at him to be a good boy and that we'd see him soon. Second we'd turn to the door, he'd be throwing a fit.

Neighbors told us he was whining and crying a bit but would settle down after about an hour.

We appologized and explained that he was new and we were working with his anxiety.

Now, we just ask him to get in his crate, give him a toy, and as soon as we latch the door it's as if they turned invisible. No eye contact, don't speak to them, just walk out the door and we haven't heard a peep out of him and our neighbors say he's been quiet during the day while we're at work.

It's also recommended that you crate them occasionally while you are home and then go into a different room. Chipper cried at first, but now he doesn't. And if he got real loud, I'd say "Hush", very firmly and he'd settle down.

[king2005]

There was another complaint. The neighbour was screaming at Chad & wouldn't let him explain... So I picked up the shock collar & stayed with Mr. Biggles for his first correction. I made sure he wasn't being shocked for anxiety, but barking at things. So when he heard the neighbours he barked a couple times & stopped. Then he barked at me, stopped...

In total he barked 10 times last night (from 6pm-1am).

I took him & Bear out for a walk knowing we'd see another dog. Mr. Biggles wanted to bark, but wouldn't.. He ignored the other dog except for a quick glance.

I then left him in the house, while I took Bear out for a pee infront of the house.. Mr. Biggles barked a couple times & stopped.. I came into the house & he was on his couch all happy.

He then cuddled with me on my couch & slept on me while I watched tv.

Then I put him in his crate 30 mins before bedtime.. He whined quietly, I just ignored him... Then he barked, & stopped.. I checked on him & he was sleeping!!!!!!!

Neither dog had an accident for the first time! & both were happy, well rested & playful this morning (that was a first).. I usually have to drag bear off the couch to go outside.

Both wanted breakfast & alittle loving... it was great!

Then I had to put Mr. Biggles back into the crate with his food, so I could leave for work.

Mr. Biggles is getting a larger Kennel soon, so both bowls & a nicer blanket can fit inside it.


I knew it was his barking that was upsetting them both.. cause the more Mr. Biggles barked the worse he acted & the worse bear acted... Now both dogs seem really calm, but not a sad kind of calm, full of energy calm, but not barking all the time & not bouncing off the walls.


We're all happy

[critter crazy]

well hey if that is what works great! i am glad the neighbors are happy now, and so are you and the dogs! that is all that matters!! :)

[king2005]

well hey if that is what works great! i am glad the neighbors are happy now, and so are you and the dogs! that is all that matters!! :)

So no cookies for those neighbours lol

Hopefully this'll get them off our backs & know we were trying to fit the problem & have.

The Security guy was over last night & said hey, your dog has his own MP3 Player lol

The dogs didn't like him too much & neither did I.. he was creepy & staired WAY too much *Yo My face is up here creep!" Atleast he made everything work properly this time & made everything look nice too.. the other guy dissconnected our phone lines to the house, had wires all over the place, & did a shatty job period! Now it looks neat & tidy & WORKS!! Means it wont randomly go off & scare the hell out of everyone.

[kimlovescats]

I'm glad things are looking up for your situation now. I'm not sure I would put food and water bowls in with Mr. Biggles. I'm afraid you might be setting him up to have accidents in his kennel. What does everyone else think? ;)

[king2005]

I'm glad things are looking up for your situation now. I'm not sure I would put food and water bowls in with Mr. Biggles. I'm afraid you might be setting him up to have accidents in his kennel. What does everyone else think? ;)

You think?

They only get fed once a day, so its not like I could just starve him. He has to eat. There is no food in his kennel at night, only for breakfast, as I have to run off to work & Chad doesn't get up until about 11am.. then he lets Mr. Biggles out, until he has to leave. After 3pm Mr. Biggles is free in the house until we go to bed. Thats why I want an even larger Kennel. So he can walk around more. Right now I can fit 2 Mr. Biggles in this crate, but if he could stretch in all directions, I'd feel much better.

I'm thinking of getting a gate & gating him in the kitchen.. Its a tile floor, so accidents are easy to clean up... But I want atleast 2 weeks of no accidents (unless its our fault) in his crate, then I'll move him to the kitchen for a couple weeks & if hes accident free in there for 2 weeks, then he can be free in the house.

Hes not a chewer at all.. So I have no worries about that. I hate the fact that I have to leave him in a crate for so long, but thats why I tried to get a larger one then he needed, so he could atleast be comfy while in there.

Starting next week, I'm going to be getting up at 6am to get them on a more strict feeding schedual.
They'll be fed at 6am
Then I'll have my shower for 30 mins (ya I know long time)
Then I'll take them outside for a longer morning walk until 7am
Then I'll let them do as they please until 7:30am & then I'll take their food away until the next day.

Both dogs are doing great at eatting just kibble, esp Bear.. Bear's food is usually gone by the time I get home & Mr. Biggles just cannot eat as much as the recommend dose is, but hes not skin & bones, & he looks good, so I'm not worried.

I know once I start the stricter feeding schedual, there will be less to no accidents in the house, as their poops will be schedualed & should only be once a day.. & not having a full colon/belly/intestine all the time their bladder will be able to hold onto pee longer & easier, so they wont have to go quite so often.

These 2 are our first Rescues, so it is very stressful on all of us (including the dogs), but its turning out better now. Esp without the crazy barking & finding puddles & logs everywhere all the time.

I'll defently rescue again, as the end result is just so wonderful!! Sure the stress is horrible & I can't handle it all the time (thank god for a car full of gas), but like I saidm its so worth helping to puppers in needs... esp unwanted ones!

[applesmom]

Congratulations on resolving the barking problem so quickly. Apparently it wasn't seperation anxiety but just an annoying habit.

I'm a firm believer in feeding twice a day so their stomachs are never completely empty. The possibility of digestive upsets are also greatly reduced with this method.

I agree that leaving food and water in the crate is setting him up for accidents. Leaving food and water in a crate is not necessary unless the dog is going to be in there for hours and hours. They should only be fed when someone is going to be there to let them out within the next couple of hours.

A baby gate in the kitchen is an excellent idea.

[king2005]

Congratulations on resolving the barking problem so quickly. Apparently it wasn't seperation anxiety but just an annoying habit.

I'm a firm believer in feeding twice a day so their stomachs are never completely empty. The possibility of digestive upsets are also greatly reduced with this method.

I agree that leaving food and water in the crate is setting him up for accidents. Leaving food and water in a crate is not necessary unless the dog is going to be in there for hours and hours. They should only be fed when someone is going to be there to let them out within the next couple of hours.

A baby gate in the kitchen is an excellent idea.

Feeding once a day is something I prefer, as long as its 2 cups or less.. anything higher then 2 cups, needs to be broken up into 2 feedings. Bear only gets 2 cups, so I'm comfy with the single feeding.

Only for now, Mr. Biggles needs his food in his kennel, other wise he wont get to eat until 3pm, if Chad has to leave when he wakes up... thats not fair...

I might start the 6am thing for tomorrow, so he wont have his food in his kennel at all. If I get the bigger kennel soon, He'll have water, as he can't go all day without water... I might buy him a rabbit feed bowl, as they can hang.. I'll rig it so its attached at the back of the kennel so he cannot accidently tip it over.. His kibble is all over his kennel right now.. I head the bowl crashing about lol.. I took the bowl out, so he would have more room & brushed the kibble to the back of the kennel, so he wouldn't lay in it... silly pup.

Its crazy how the doggy gates are so bloody $$.. I got a sweet gate for 20.00 at toys R us back in Ottawa & it worked fine on a BM & that mutt from hell. So it should be just fine for Mr. Biggles lol


Now we need to save up for a temp fence & a wooden fence, so the dogs can run free in our yard... Sure its a small yard, but they can sniff about, play in it & potty. In the summer it'll be nice to leave teh door open & have them come & go to enjoy themselves... I know my old dog liked that (even though he wasn't fenced in, he didn't need it)

How safe is bark bits? Our yard is under a tree so its unlikely we'll get grass to grow.. so I was thinking of covering the larger level (our yard has 3 levels) in bark bits to keep it clean & mud free for the dogs... I'll be planting bushes along the lower fence yard, as its too small for the dogs to play on, & a bushes would look great... I plan to get wild bushes from Chad's mom's place in the middle of nowhere in Ottawa. I like free lol

[kimlovescats]

I would feed them in the early morning as you are, and also again during that 3pm to bed time frame when they are out. I would personally hate to go 24 hours between feedings! ;)

Yes, leaving food and water in the crate will make them either go or be miserable trying to hold it until you get home.

[critter crazy]

I have never seen/heard of anyone leaving food or water in a kennel before. seems like a disaster waiting to happen. I would feed twice a day. Even if they only get 2 cups, break it up so they get 1 cup in the am, and one in the pm. I know my dogs after they eat, have to go potty within the next 20mins! I couldnt imagine them hoding it all day!!

[king2005]

I would feed them in the early morning as you are, and also again during that 3pm to bed time frame when they are out. I would personally hate to go 24 hours between feedings! ;)

Yes, leaving food and water in the crate will make them either go or be miserable trying to hold it until you get home.


I don't know.. the 2 feedings a day really isn't want I like... I might do the kibble in the morning & a bit of rice with vitamins in the evening, to make sure both are getting proper viatmins & Minerals... As mr. Biggles is older & Bear is on a diet food, so shes gonna feel like shes being starved & ripped off lol

[applesmom]

Feeding once a day is something I prefer, as long as its 2 cups or less.. anything higher then 2 cups, needs to be broken up into 2 feedings. Bear only gets 2 cups, so I'm comfy with the single feeding. Only for now, Mr. Biggles needs his food in his kennel, other wise he wont get to eat until 3pm, if Chad has to leave when he wakes up... thats not fair...


Here's a thought though! Since they're only being fed once every 24 hours, perhaps you could change that one feeding to after 3pm when you are home with them and will be able to let them out. That should eliminate the majority of accidents immediatly.

[king2005]

Here's a thought though! Since they're only being fed once every 24 hours, perhaps you could change that one feeding to after 3pm when you are home with them and will be able to let them out. That should eliminate the majority of accidents immediatly.

Right now they are fed all day long, because they wern't eatting at all (new enviroment), & Bear needed to eat so she wouldn't get sicker. Now that both dogs are eatting, they can start on a proper schedual.

They'll have from 6-6:30 to eat.. then potty from 6:30-7.. then finish any food from 7-7:30.. then I'm gone at 7:30-7:45... once they get use to that, then they'll have their food pulled at 6:30.... Hmmmm I might just pull it at 6:30, so they are on an identical schedual as my old dog...

My Old dog was fed from 6-6:30.. went out to potty & then was left alone until 5pm when I got home from school. Never had any accidents (only when he was sick, but that doesn't count).

So I'm not too sure how they'll be any different once they get use to the schedual. But I'll see how things go, if it needs to be ajusted, then I'll change it.

[CathyBogart]

Since Biggles is a little guy, I would recommend withholding a little bit of his food (maybe a tablespoon or two) and giving it to him in the evening so he has something in his stomach. It's better for little guys to be fed more frequently, but I know that Jasper is much more likely to have an accident in the middle of the night if I feed him in the evening so I definitely understand the once a day feeding.

I also leave a small, shallow dish of water in Jasper's crate with him. I don't like for him to be without it, even for a few hours. The only time he's had an accident in his crate was when he had giardia. :(

I'm so glad you got the parking problem solved. I'm actually considering going to pick up one of those collars right now before I leave for school. Taking Jasper to doggy daycare is going to cost almost $500 a month, so if this works for him I think it would be worthwhile...plus, then I could still buy groceries! (yay food!)

I think I'll start a separate thread about debarking so as not to hijack yours any further.

[king2005]

Since Biggles is a little guy, I would recommend withholding a little bit of his food (maybe a tablespoon or two) and giving it to him in the evening so he has something in his stomach. It's better for little guys to be fed more frequently, but I know that Jasper is much more likely to have an accident in the middle of the night if I feed him in the evening so I definitely understand the once a day feeding.

I also leave a small, shallow dish of water in Jasper's crate with him. I don't like for him to be without it, even for a few hours. The only time he's had an accident in his crate was when he had giardia. :(

I'm so glad you got the parking problem solved. I'm actually considering going to pick up one of those collars right now before I leave for school. Taking Jasper to doggy daycare is going to cost almost $500 a month, so if this works for him I think it would be worthwhile...plus, then I could still buy groceries! (yay food!)

I think I'll start a separate thread about debarking so as not to hijack yours any further.

Let me know when you make your own thread, & I'll post my results in it & how I did it.

[Freedom]

Yay, the barking has been solved, and relatively easily.

Um, could I have those cookies which were designated for the neighbor? ha ha.

Having just adopted Sugar, I was told by the rescue and the vet, and read on many web sites, that smaller dogs need to be fed twice per day. Larger dogs can go to the once per day feeding. Since Mr. B is small AND older, I would wonder if that would be easier on him. But time will tell. Start with your plan and see what happens! Everything must seem saner now the barking is halted.

My Dad is insane about the animals ALWAYS having access to water. No matter what. He gets panicky if I clean ALL 5 water bowls at the same time. This is not his age; he has always been worried about water for animals. Sigh. We all have our hang ups! :rolleyes:

About the fencing. We needed to fence in the backyard, more to keep coyotes OUT than to keep Sugar in. So we wanted something high, but it didn't need to tolerate a digger or a charger. I don't know if Bear will be jumping or charging as she loses weight. We wanted something which didn't disturb the "look" of the house too much. So we opted for the vinyl covered fence with the 2 inch by 3 inch openings. The vinyl covering is green, so you barely notice it. The posts are also green. Wth chain link, I guess folks often put the posts in cement for sturdiness. But those posts are round. These posts are shaped like an unside down U with arms out on each side. AND about one foot up from the bottom they have a piece which grips in the dirt. Look at Home Depot, Lowe's, or another of those DIY places.

It was LOTS cheaper than chain link, and easy to install.

I can take photos but I just started a new roll of film so it will be a while before I can post the photos. We did really well with gates also. We bought one at the Fall clearance, a $46 dollar gate for $20. Then we found a broken chain link fence, found all the parts laying around on the ground. Dad said he could fix it in about 20 minutes (he is real big on DIY and owns EVERY tool, power and otherwise, ever made.) So I talked to them about a discount. It was originally $28, and we got that one for $5!!!!! Found out they had had it for AGES and were planning to just write it off and junk it, ha ha. (Of course, did NOT tell them Dad could fix it up so easily!)

[critter crazy]

Yay, the barking has been solved, and relatively easily.

Um, could I have those cookies which were designated for the neighbor? ha ha.

Having just adopted Sugar, I was told by the rescue and the vet, and read on many web sites, that smaller dogs need to be fed twice per day. Larger dogs can go to the once per day feeding. Since Mr. B is small AND older, I would wonder if that would be easier on him. But time will tell. Start with your plan and see what happens! Everything must seem saner now the barking is halted.

My Dad is insane about the animals ALWAYS having access to water. No matter what. He gets panicky if I clean ALL 5 water bowls at the same time. This is not his age; he has always been worried about water for animals. Sigh. We all have our hang ups! :rolleyes:

About the fencing. We needed to fence in the backyard, more to keep coyotes OUT than to keep Sugar in. So we wanted something high, but it didn't need to tolerate a digger or a charger. I don't know if Bear will be jumping or charging as she loses weight. We wanted something which didn't disturb the "look" of the house too much. So we opted for the vinyl covered fence with the 2 inch by 3 inch openings. The vinyl covering is green, so you barely notice it. The posts are also green. Wth chain link, I guess folks often put the posts in cement for sturdiness. But those posts are round. These posts are shaped like this
__
| |
-- -- AND about one foot up from the bottom they have a piece which grips in the dirt. Look at Home Depot. Lowe's, or another of those DIY places.

It was LOTS cheaper than chain link, and easy to install.

I can take photos but I just started a new roll of film so it will be a while before I can post the photos. We did really well with gates also. We bought one at the Fall clearance, a $46 dollar gate for $20. Then we found a broken chain link fence, found all the parts laying around on the ground. Dad said he could fix it in about 20 minutes (he is real big on DIY and owns EVERY tool, power and otherwise, ever made.) So I talked to them about a discount. It was originally $28, and we got that one for $5!!!!! Found out they had had it for AGES and were planning to just write it off and junk it, ha ha. (Of course, did NOT tell them Dad could fix it up so easily!)

That is the same type of fencing we have for our dogs! we had it originally for the horses, but figured we could also use it for the dogs. if you think you might have a digger, just make sure that when you go to put the fencing in, you first dig a trench where the fencing will go, so once it is all done, you have the fencing in the ground. Learned tis the hard way with Duke!:rolleyes: But other than that, it works fabulous! and the plus side it is low cost, and looks good!:)

[king2005]

Yay, the barking has been solved, and relatively easily.

Um, could I have those cookies which were designated for the neighbor? ha ha.

Having just adopted Sugar, I was told by the rescue and the vet, and read on many web sites, that smaller dogs need to be fed twice per day. Larger dogs can go to the once per day feeding. Since Mr. B is small AND older, I would wonder if that would be easier on him. But time will tell. Start with your plan and see what happens! Everything must seem saner now the barking is halted.

My Dad is insane about the animals ALWAYS having access to water. No matter what. He gets panicky if I clean ALL 5 water bowls at the same time. This is not his age; he has always been worried about water for animals. Sigh. We all have our hang ups! :rolleyes:

About the fencing. We needed to fence in the backyard, more to keep coyotes OUT than to keep Sugar in. So we wanted something high, but it didn't need to tolerate a digger or a charger. I don't know if Bear will be jumping or charging as she loses weight. We wanted something which didn't disturb the "look" of the house too much. So we opted for the vinyl covered fence with the 2 inch by 3 inch openings. The vinyl covering is green, so you barely notice it. The posts are also green. Wth chain link, I guess folks often put the posts in cement for sturdiness. But those posts are round. These posts are shaped like an unside down U with arms out on each side. AND about one foot up from the bottom they have a piece which grips in the dirt. Look at Home Depot, Lowe's, or another of those DIY places.

It was LOTS cheaper than chain link, and easy to install.

I can take photos but I just started a new roll of film so it will be a while before I can post the photos. We did really well with gates also. We bought one at the Fall clearance, a $46 dollar gate for $20. Then we found a broken chain link fence, found all the parts laying around on the ground. Dad said he could fix it in about 20 minutes (he is real big on DIY and owns EVERY tool, power and otherwise, ever made.) So I talked to them about a discount. It was originally $28, and we got that one for $5!!!!! Found out they had had it for AGES and were planning to just write it off and junk it, ha ha. (Of course, did NOT tell them Dad could fix it up so easily!)


we cannot use chainlink in our yard, because its a front yard. The theme is Picket or treated wood.. the guy a few doors down has a 4' high fence for his black GSD & its pretty nice looking.. there are no spaces as his dog isn't very nice.. BUT its well contained & obident.. everytime he barks hes stopped, so the owners are respectful of other, which I approve of.

I cannot see Bear being a jumper or a lets body slam the fence lol.. I can see her as a lets jump up & bark over the fence.. So I want to fence off the 2ed level, so the dogs cannot get to the first level & bark in someones face. I want to use a flat solid picket fence so it still matches everything else & will disscourage any chance of jumping.

But until then, I have a screw & Chain, I can tie one dog up to at a time, so they can sniff the whole yard & not run off on me again *whistles* Ok it was a walk, as Miss Tubby cannot run fast lol

Its mostly the bark bits I'm wondering if its ok, or if there is something better to use instead of mud & dead grass lol

[finn's mom]

I left water for Finn in his crate once he was potty trained. And if you're leaving food in there until Chad gets up, that wouldn't be too bad. Just a few hours in the morning wouldn't be that difficult. I wouldn't leave food in there all day, though, especially if you're trying to housebreak them. I hope you still consider a behaviorist, even though the shock collar has worked. It might help understand a lot of things (especially now that he's bitten you). Hopefully, you can do like someone else mentioned and eventually just put the collar on without actually turning it on. Sounds like they are both happier, though!