Flyball?? (rant)

[slleipnir]

Hmm ok this is probably going to be long and boring, so I don't blame you if you don't read it.

I don't know if anyone remembers or not, but a while ago..maybe last winter?? I had Zeke in flyball. I probably had him in for about a year or so. I helped them with events, tournys, set ups and tear downs (of the equipment) I do believe a lot of my time was invested into this club.

Zeke has a little problem. He is VERY friendly with other dogs. He LOVES to play. I have no problems with Zeke listening any other time. As soon as a dog is in the picture, he just goes nuts and doesn't listen to me. (if he's off leash) This isn't really good for flyball, especially since the other handlers and dogs want nothing of this. A lot of people on the team thought Zeke was aggressive! One lady litterally screamed when Zeke ran up to her dog...geez! They must have no idea what aggressive looks like, because Zeke ISN'T. His problem is he doesn't know when other dogs don't want to play...he will play with them anyway...and I guess people thing it's aggression.

Anyway. Two people actually hit Zeke for this without asking me. The first one was ok, I guess, because he was "protecting" his dog. I think he had Zeke's best interest when he did it. He just grabbed him and yelled at him...Although Zeke wouldn't run fast coming back after that. He was really frightened...The second time was completely uncalled for. Zeke went to see someones dog, and he WAS biting the dog, but I'm sure everyone here knows what play fighting is. He was NOT being aggressive. I grabbed Zeke and yelled NO at him. Then had him sit beside me. He was behaving good, when the dogs owner comes up and screams NO at Zeke and hits him with his tug rope. Zeke was like WTF did I do?!?! Because at this point he had already been corrected...this man just hit Zeke for no reason as far as he was concerned. The man didn't even come to me and say "listen, smarten up" he didn't even LOOK at me. He hit zeke and walked off without so much as a glance. THAT pissed me off. It's my fault for not training Zeke right, so he should yell at me, not Zeke.

At that point I was so upset I pulled Zeke off the matt. I just can't believe these people can't talk about anything. Later on everyone else said No he didn't hit Zeke..he just pushed him gentle...yeah, whatever. I know what I saw. If I wasn't so upset I would have told him off. I was in shock I guess. Anyway they emailed me saying I was always looking for people to train Zeke, I'm not loud enough, I don't get to Zeke quick enough, I don't punish him enough, etc...I'm thinking why the heck wouldn't you tell me this before?? So I could fix it. I had no idea! I thought I was doing my best. I don't like to hit my dog, so I'm sorry if I'm not correcting him right. And I'm sorry that asking questions about training means "train my dog" urg....

Anyway...getting to the point.

I'm still very frustrated with them. I want to re-join just to prove to them that WE CAN do this, and that Zeke isn't aggressive, and that I KNOW I can train him to leave other dogs alone. He improved SO much the year I had him there. He would slip every now and then if there was a dog he wanted to go see.

I know I should want to join just to make a point...but these people are miserable. I guess I don't like to lose...and I invested so much time with that club for nothing. Not even a thanks for helping. I can't help but get worked up just thinking about it...I figure if I go back I can put it to rest.

What do you think?

Also I'm going to take Zeke back to obedience classes and see if she can help me with his problem...I think if he got a long run everyday he would improve, but unfortunatly I don't always have time to take him somewhere he can run offleash.

[BC_MoM]

When a dog runs off course, no one is supposed to MOVE (except the handler) or make eye contact with the dog.

Your trainer is then supposed to go after the dog, stomping her feet on the ground to make the dog move away, while the owner calls the dog or runs around to get it's attention back to the handler.

YOU are supposed to be the fun thing. The other dogs, people and the trainer are not.

You don't punish him - because, you have to be the fun thing!!

I would try finding another team, these people sound like they know nothing.

[slleipnir]

They are VERY competitive. I don't think they wanted to help me train him. I know nothing of the sport so I obviously need guidence. My dad calls them elitest snobs..they see their own perfect world and nothing else.

The only other team on the island is like an hour or more away.

[BC_MoM]

Yeah, they definitely sound like a problem. Is there anyone near you who goes to the other club? Maybe you could carpool and offer some bucks for gas.

[agilityk9trainer]

I do agree that the club handled the whole thing poorly. That being said...

You have to understand that in the competitive dog world, it is considered HIGHLY RUDE for your dog to go up to another dog to sniff or say hi or want to play, even on-lead. If this happens, you are expected to act very upset and apologize.

In your case, your dog is not trained enough to be attempting flyball yet. You must have 100 percent (yes, I said 100 percent) reliable recall. If you don't, you are only waiting for a dogfight to happen. Dog people understand dogs. Many dogs are not aggressive, but they don't like other dog's in their face. This is rude in the dog kingdom as well as in the human one. So, if your dog goes up to play with another dog and gets into it's space and the other dog reacts and a dog fight ensues, the people of the dog world will blame you - NOT the other dog. The other dog has a right to it's space. It's your responsiblity to have full control of your dog on and off leash.

If you were in my agility school, you wouldn't be competing yet. I wouldn't have let you move into the classes where you would finish your skills for competition. A reliable recall is a must for any off-lead competition.

So, yes, absolutely go back to your obedience instructor. Work off lead. You don't have to go everyday somewhere to work off-lead, but get there several times a week. Focus on this. Make sure to heavily proof the behavior (your trainer can tell you what that means). Then, when you've gotten that 100 percent reliable recall no matter what's going on, rejoin the flyball team and show them what you're made of!

Good luck.

[CathyBogart]

Honestly, I would have been annoyed if my dog was working and another dog came up and started distracting him. What if the next dog he barges up to isn't as friendly as he is? I can't believe how many people let their friendly dogs barge up to my dog-walking client's aggressive but very reserved dog, then act like it was MY fault when she snaps at their dog.

I don't think the club handled it as well as they could have, but I do think their point was valid.

[applesmom]

There's no doubt that the situation could have been handled better. However this often happens when enthusiasm takes over before a dog is truly ready.

Put yourself in their place and imagine how you would feel if you finally had Zeke trained not to try to play with other dogs and then someone else's dog did the same thing to Zeke. It can set them back months in training.

It's a good idea to go back to your obedience classes and stay with them until Zeke is completely under control.

It's just a small setback. Next time will be better.

[Canis-Lupess]

As an owner of two Border Collies who don't like other dogs coming up to them, I know I get very annoyed when other owners allow their dogs to approach mine and if something bad happens, they blame me like it's my fault because my dogs don't want to play with theirs. In the end, they should control their dogs because mine aren't interested in going up to other peoples and stay away.
If I see a dog running up and I get hold of Jess's collar because she's the most aggressive towards other dogs, the other owners seem to automatically think that I believe their dog is going to attack mine. It never seems to occur to them that mine will probably go for theirs and they say something stupid like: "He's ok love, he just wants to play", and I'm so tired of it now that I usually respond by telling them that mine DON'T want to play. Too many people just don't seem to get it. Obviously, I don't want our Jess to lay into somebody elses dog so these close shaves do frighten me and some people might mistake it for me believing the other dog is aggressive when it is not.
BTW, both my dogs have been attacked by other dogs, especially Jess, thats why they don't like them. They aren't just bad tempered by choice.

I used to do agility and flyball at a club with mine and I remember a guy with a GSD which was quite aggressive towards other dogs. He kept it on the lead but when it went through the tunnel or the tyre jump, he would have to let go of the lead. One time, it managed to evade him when it came out of the other end of the tunnel, it ran straight up to our Mist as I was taking her around the next course to have a go at her but Mist being Mist span round and nipped it's nose like a flash of lightening and then she stood her ground with teeth showing and staring right at the GSD and letting him know she meant business. Her sudden pushiness made him back off and the owner got there by that time to get hold of him. The GSD also used to snarl and growl at our Jess when we were waiting in the queue with them on leads to go around the courses. Jess would snarl back of course.

In the end, no matter how friendly a dog might be, other dogs might not want to be approached and react aggressively if they are. I know that Border collie bitches are often very much like this and as Borders often dominate the agility and flyball scene, I bet there was a lot of them around. No other breed is fast enough for them in agility and flyball so they do tend to dominate.

You need to concentrate on making yourself much more interesting and fun than anyone else and their dogs. Use a favourite toy and destract your dog from others as practise and reward him simply for keeping his attention on you. If you are more interesting than them, your dog will stay with you and will lose interest in wanting to go and play with other dogs.

I don't agree with another owner coming up and smacking your dog though. Maybe having a word with you about making sure the dog was properly taught not to run up to others but not smack the dog. I think they might be a bit clueless in some aspects. As for not punishing him enough, thats plain stupid. Dogs don't learn through punishment, they learn through positive reinforcement. Firmness, yes, but shouting at him and hitting him...well, that doesn't create a trusting relationship between you and thats something you need in order to work as a team.

Take AgilityK9trainers advice and get your recall 100% spot on and then go and get back to it but do it for you and your dog. Don't waste your time trying to impress them.

[agilityk9trainer]

I've come up with a new thing to say when people are rude and allow their dog to come up to mine and sniff,. I talk to my dog (in a happy tone so my dog doesn't think he's getting scolded), "Oh, you knowi it's horribly rude to go up and sniff other dogs, Aslan. You know that's very rude." I've gotten across to the other owner that it's rude to let their dog come up and sniff other dogs, and yet my dog has no idea I've just "scolded" him. Bascially, what I've done is scold the other owner!

[CathyBogart]

I do the same thing agilityk9trainer! If someone lets their dog approach and Jasper responds, I'll say to him, "Now, it's RUDE to approach another dog before I've asked their parents, you know that!" Jasper's nearly flawless with "leave it" though, so he's almost never a problem.

[Ginger's Mom]

Sorry Audrey, I don't think it is a good idea to go back to the flyball group at this time. Going back because you feel you have something to prove, or haven't had the last say, isn't a good idea. Take Zeke back to obedience class, have fun training there. If and when Zeke is ready for flyball, you won't even have to ask if the time is right.

[Canis-Lupess]

Haha, I might try that what you two described next time somebody lets their dog come running up.

A couple of weeks ago, I guy let his dog run up and didn't even try to call it away and I shouted across to him firmly to call it away and he did and put it on the lead whilst he passed us. He was behind us and caught us up but I couldn't move any quicker because Mist can't get around that fast anymore.

I remember one time when I was walking along and saw some people ahead in the distance and they had a rottweiler that saw us and came running towards us so I got the dogs collars and squatted down with one dog on each side. The rottie just stopped about 10ft in front and just looked at us curiously. Then I noticed this guy come walking up from behind with his dog. This guy allowed his dog to come up to our Jess's backside and sniff it. She didn't know it was coming because she was looking at the rottie in front and then all of a sudden feels this nose up her backside so span round and lunged at it dragging me with her. The guy didn't say anything and just carried on walking past and the dog went with him and, at that point, the rottie ran back to it's owners. I really regret not having a go at that stupid, thick brainless, twirp now. It still riles me thinking about it. Imagine being stupid enough to let your dog do that. Some people shouldn't have dogs seriously.

[slleipnir]

I was still in training...these people all know how Zeke acts. He was NOT on a team yet.

[Kalei]

I have no idea what flyball even is lol, I don't own a dog, but with whatever you choose, I wish you the best of luck with you and your Zeke. Zeke sounds like a wonderful dog and I bet someday you and him will be able to flawlessly complete in flyball:)

[slleipnir]

Honestly, I would have been annoyed if my dog was working and another dog came up and started distracting him. What if the next dog he barges up to isn't as friendly as he is? I can't believe how many people let their friendly dogs barge up to my dog-walking client's aggressive but very reserved dog, then act like it was MY fault when she snaps at their dog.

I don't think the club handled it as well as they could have, but I do think their point was valid.

No I completely understand that, but he had no right to hit my dog when he was sitting there nicely. If he had grabbed him when he was in the dogs face, I could get that....I'm not annoyed for that reason, I'm annoyed that he hit my dog and didnt come to my face. I know Zeke behaves poorly sometimes, and so do they. They KNOW he is still in training and they told me they would only put him up with dogs who wouldn't mind, and owners who wouldn't mind....It's not like they were like oh we had no idea Zeke is like this. So don't think this is all my fault

[cali]

as a flyball person I have to agree that you need to have complete and total control of your dog, flyball people work together when displining, crossing over for any reason is unacceptable, and if Zeke came up to a dog that was not friendly and the other dog went after Zeke, there is a extremly high possablity that both dogs will be banned from competing. Zeke sounds like he is a softer dog, but understand that most flyball dogs are so drivey at practices and tourniments that "bad dog" means nothing, most of them have to have someone leap in front of them screaming a few times before they make the connection that their not supposed to do that. if you dont have 100% control of your dog both on and off leash then your dog should not be taken off the leash at any point in time. period.

and by the way, I do agree that hitting the dog after the fact was rather pointless lol

[slleipnir]

I posted this to feel better but I feel worse now. I don't know why I bother. I would delete the post but I know that would annoy people..

People are ignorant for letting there dogs come up and sniff, it's not always rude. Some people just don't know any better. I always ask if my dog can come up and sniff or play, as I do have an aggessive dog, and I don't like it when peopple do that to me.

I wish people would stop saying I'm rude, and Zeke rude. Under those circumstances, I don't think it was. They all have been working with me since I took classes. They know what he is like and he does go to the other dogs. I'm still in training myself, and they didn't help me very much so I'm sorry I'm, not born with flyball knowledge and amazing dog contol abilities. They should NOT have let him run with other dogs if he's not ready. I know you'll say stop blaming them, it's your fault...but why must you all critize me when you don't know the whole story? I'm extremely sensitve about this because of how mean they were to me. You have no idea. I tried my best with Zeke. I figured they put dogs on the matt who wouldn't be upset if he crossed. I was exhasted after class because I had to be fun and energenic for him so he wouldn't lose focus.

[slleipnir]

Ok. I've calmed down a little.

This was ment to be a vent from me. These people have really hurt me. They were extremely rude to me, and I never got so much as a thank you for helping us. The club is poorly run, in my opinion, and I didn't post this to be about Zeke. I posted it because I'm still hurting.

If you have any more to say regarding Zeke and how I screwed everything up, please PM me or keep it to youself, as that isn't really the point I was trying to make.

I know I'm a very emotional person, and I struggle with depression and anxiety. I get upset over the stupiest things, but I can't control it sometimes. I was extremely depressed over this whole flyball thing for a long time. I really don't want to go there. I KNOW Zeke needs work, I KNOW he was rude, and I KNOW it's annoying. They told me this, for some reason AFTER the fact instead of when I was there so I could fix it. I never asked to be lectured on how badly he is. He is an excellent dog, with one little problem I WILL resolve. I don't REALLY want to re-join flyball, I was only upset thinking back on it. I want to prove he can do it, cause it annoys me when people bad mouth him...He is not a bad dog, and he is not aggessive. People seem to think that how he looks he is automatically a bad dog. People will stay away from him even if I'm walking him, and it's so irratating. He is a very soft, sweet dog who wouldn't hurt a fly.

So please, stop telling me about how he acts. I know it, and you telling me all the bad stuff about me and him is only going to upset me. I'm sorry to be so sensitive, but sometimes people just want to talk and not be lectured.

[wolf_Q]

Audrey, I know how you feel, I'm still bothered by how Nebo and I were treated when we were in agility class. I hope the obedience classes go well, it probably is best that you don't go back to that flyball club. I haven't met Zeke, but I know he is a very sweet boy and very loved. I do not like it when other dogs come up to Nebo on-leash, even if they are friendly, because Nebo has "personal space" and doesn't usually like strange dogs getting in his face. But they handled it badly, and they knew that he was still training so they shouldn't have acted the way they did. I hope you can find another fun activity for you and Zeke.

[slleipnir]

Thanks Amy...

I'm hoping I can get him into therapy work...which is why I'm taking him to obedience. I'm going to train him to behave better around other dogs, so he will be able to work in a home and have people pat him and stuff. He loves attention, and I hear it's very rewarding too. I think we both would love that. It's not competitive, and I know he'll be good at it if he can over come his problem.

(as a side note about the not wanting dogs to come up in their space: I never let Zeke off leash when I know there might be a dog come up as I know it's a bother. I never come up to people without asking either. This only happened at flyball because I was doing when I was told to do. (and I wasn't told very much) If they had said, this is a problem please run by yourself...I would have. I figured they had the situation under control and that the dogs we ran with were able to cope with him. Some dogs are more sensitive than others. Some don't mind. I figured that's what they did. There was another person who had a dog do that too (cross and chase other dogs) no one ever gave her a hard time.

[borzoimom]

Audrey- I delayed posting on this thread for several reasons- just hear me out. I do not believe the club handled this right.
However- I will tell you even in the show circuit, people are required to maintain control at all times- including sniffing noses. The only "group" allowed and encouraged to come in contact is the terrier group ( staffy's aside) as terriers are encouraged to spar..
Let me give you a medical reason to keep your dog from others dogs. There are two out breaks now, and neither have vaccines- one is the new dog flu, and the second is dog herpes. Now dog herpes can be genetic or environmental- but the fact is- they just do not know. The leads I heard from the Vet. Assoc. LAST WEEK was even spread by urine to even sniffing another dogs uh woo hoo could spread it.
IN the 80's a new disease named parvo showed up- we were terrified as not only puppies were infected but adult healthy dogs as well- with usually fatel results.
Keeping dogs apart is not just for the safety of a conflict- including to your dog- it can also be a health issue.
As far as " you would not even be allowed to compete in my class/school/group"- I find that total "baloney".. We bring new ones into our groups all the time- and this is the best learning grounds to learn as the dog goes- sometimes ending up the best members quite frankly.
If you feel they ( they meaning the people) have problems in communications- well honey-- it wouldnt be the first time a "club" is not the best one for you. I joined a Sch. club once that required muzzles- to me their whole technique was too much hardness.. I left and found another one that better suited how the dogs were changed- THEN DID THE CONGO DANCE when in competitions my dogs took the top titles verses the club I left..
Some clubs build their rules based on a couple of dogs and how they learned- then take it and run- well not all dogs make all molds- and this doesnt work.. I hear your rant, and I am sure you looking at this differently- but if you arent- may I suggest another 'club'.. But keep in mind- for personal reasons and health- for you own dogs protection- keep your dog back from the others except in obvious open play...

[slleipnir]

I understand there are reasons for this. But that wasn't the purpose of my thread...I just wanted to vent. And I've explained my situtation too. I didn't know at that time it was so wrong. No one told me. I knew it was obviously annoying, but I thought we were all under the same understanding that they knew he was like that and they had a choice as to if they wanted to run with him or not. They knew he was like that and they could simply say I dont want my dog running with him...as classes were training, not a tourney situation

[Kfamr]

{{HUGS}} Zekey.

I have no clue about flyball or the like, but it seems some people take it to seriously. Can't they just have a bit of fun without being SO competitive? Can't they let the dogs be dogs at some point, too? NO ONE has any right to hit someone's dog.



Anywho... Zeke is a good boy and we all know that. I misses him. ;[

[borzoimom]

I understand there are reasons for this. But that wasn't the purpose of my thread...I just wanted to vent. And I've explained my situtation too. I didn't know at that time it was so wrong. No one told me. I knew it was obviously annoying, but I thought we were all under the same understanding that they knew he was like that and they had a choice as to if they wanted to run with him or not. They knew he was like that and they could simply say I dont want my dog running with him...as classes were training, not a tourney situation
I understand honey, and I read it as a vent.. You know- classes can be a big thrill or sometimes you think you are taking a lesson in force feeding- chalk it up to one of those days.. ;) And keep this in mind- I use to have classes were I worked all week and had spotless results- walk in the class- and it would go out the window- some weeks where I could not work that much- expected the worse- and got the best I ever saw... Ya just never know... ;)

[applesmom]

You did title this thread "rant" didn't you? Maybe next time you can add a qualifier; "no comments please". ;)

[Kfamr]

You did title this thread "rant" didn't you? Maybe next time you can add a qualifier; "no comments please". ;)


Maybe you didn't read post #18, but you should. Please try to be more sensitive to other's feelings.

[bckrazy]

Honestly... don't feel bad, at all. I have had similar problems with Flyball, and it's not even WORTH getting upset over! Seriously.

Flyball people especially, in the dog sport world, can get extremely cliquey & touchy & offensive. Understand that some of these people truly have no social lives except for Flyball, and they literally treat tournaments like a life-or-death experience!

I feel it's s t u p i d to get angry & offend people, and insane to hit any dog, because a dog got distracted by another dog and approached it in a friendly manner. No one's dog got hurt or was at risk of getting hurt, obviously. Flyball is a for fun dog sport... if we were talking about a dog running around loose at a herding trial and distracting the working dog, that's completely different all together.

Dogs are still animals, and I am a firm believer that NO DOG has 100% perfect recall, no matter how many hours are spent training. Dogs have instincts & make mistakes... just like people. For anyone to expect perfection from a dog, especially from Zeke who is still in training, they must be incredibly dillusional. I get soooo sick of people treating Flyball & other "for fun dog sports" like it's the end of the freaking world! It's like the Mom's & Dad's who scream and get into fights at their kids t-ball games... stupid.

I tried to get back into Flyball, too, for similar reasons. It just was not worth it to me... because of really petty, really immature arguements between people & friends switching teams. They also hurt my feelings, with some nasty remarks from one lady, who happens to own a Barbie Collie with z e r o drive (she was calling Gonzo aggressive... when Gonzo hasn't snapped at or left a mark on any dog ever).

Feel better, and do what you want to do. However, go back to the team for Zeke & you to have fun, not to prove anything. It's supposed to be fun!!! xP When it's no longer something you & Zeke look forward to, it's not worth all of your effort.

[applesmom]

Maybe you didn't read post #18, but you should. Please try to be more sensitive to other's feelings.

What's the problem? I was agreeing with her. Didn't you see the wink? :confused:

[agilityk9trainer]

[QUOTE=slleipnir]I understand there are reasons for this. But that wasn't the purpose of my thread...I just wanted to vent. And I've explained my situtation too. I didn't know at that time it was so wrong. No one told me. I knew it was obviously annoying, but I thought we were all under the same understanding that they knew he was like that and they had a choice as to if they wanted to run with him or not. They knew he was like that and they could simply say I dont want my dog running with him...as classes were training, not a tourney situation[/QUOTE

You said, "I didn't know at the time it was wrong." And that's the exact problem. Your club never told you the "unwritten" rules of ettiquette. You crossed the line and never new the line was there. However, the guy who hit your dog crossed a line, too, and he probably KNEW the line was there.

In my school, I have a seminar for my beginning students that I give them before they go out into the big wide world of doggie competitions (I know you were training, but bear with me). It gives them all the unwritten rules of ettiquette and what will be expected of them. In addition, I enforce these unwrittten rules in my classes. In the beginning classes where dogs aren't that responsive to recalls, I make sure only one dog it loose at a time, and that all other dogs are crated. Then, we can have no incidents. After I get to know the dogs well, we may have one dog off lead and another dog out on-lead. Also, there's a rule - no nose to nose with the dogs. One of the biggest problems I find in dog sport clubs and schools is this issue. Allowing too many untrained dogs off-lead at the same time. YIKES!

Your club failed to educate you properly. They failed to let you know the apparently "unwritten" rules of their organization. They failed to give you structured and safe training until you were ready for the real off-lead experience.

You mentioned getting angry and upset easily. In dog sport, you have to have a thick skin. Someone will say something about you or your dog. People will be people. You need to develop a thick skin or you will get hurt again.

I think you are very sensitive. Even here, you said we were "yelling" at you. None of the posts I read indicated anyone was "yelling." They were offering advice and comments, which is what a board like this is for. You realize you are sensitive and get easily hurt. That's a good first step! Learn to also develop the thick skin.

This club sounds really unorganized and difficult. I can tell you, if someone came and hit my dog for not responding to a recall, I would be all over him like white on rice!! That is completely uncalled for. I wouldn't go back to that club. If I were you, I'd look for another club. Your personallity and that club's personality don't fit. Not all people can join all clubs. A well-run club wouldn't allow a dog with run-off issues into a situation like that where other dogs (and your dog) are at risk. You're a green, novice handler. It's up to the club to "bring you along" safely and slowly.

I'd go back to your obedience trainer for more work. Then, I'd look for another flyball group. If you can't find one, consider an alternate sport. Rally is a great sport for dogs with run-off issues. Much more contolled and fun. As it's not a team effort, you will probably also not get as much negative comments, which will suit your personality much better.

[TamanduaGirl]

play agression is still agression and not okay and will eventualy spark a fight.

I was walking my dogs once when a big rottie came running up and and wasn't able to get mine up in time and he picked Hyzzie up in his mouth. she screamed bloody murder but wasn't hurt once he put her down just drooled on. He still kept coming for her! But he "just wanted to play" He really did but that doesn't make it okay.

alternate is little dogs bullying big dogs those owners to will usualy claim fluffy just wants to play then blame the big dog if theirs a fight even though the big dog was just fed up and saying enough.

Quasi used to be okay with big dogs even shared his obedience class with an English mastiff but he Saw that happen to his sister and he was attacked by a collie, and had many other big dog incidents so he hates all big dogs now. so I get that too when I pull my dogs back when there's a big dog. "He's not egressive" "He doesn't bite" (I have honestly come back sometimes "But mine do") ect. but mine are agressive/defensive with big dogs so please keep them away.

My old dog goldie was attacked by a lab once. I couldn't get that dog off and finaly resorted to a slap to it's back. I suppose I should have just kicked it because it looked like the big dog was killing her but I guess I'm just a big wimp. The owner finaly came over and got his dog off her. That one was being serious for sure but I've no idea what sparked it off.

There was absolutely zero reason to go and hit someone's dog after the fact though. that part was wrong.

I've had to many incidents to count, honestly, with dogs after mine. And thankfully the majority have been just agressive play except collies(no offense it's just true so far) every single one has wanted to kill Quasi! Any way it's no more exceptable in a sports club than on the street or at the dog park. I don't understand why the club would allow untrained or partly trained dogs in the club. Untrained in fly ball sure but a dog has to have at least basic obedience down pat to participate in clubs or even go to an off leash dog park (IMO)

I suppose that's why no one said anything though since they were told the club wont put up with anyone complaining about untrained dogs, that certainly leaves them no outlet except maybe to quit.

[bckrazy]

play agression is still agression and not okay and will eventualy spark a fight.

My two dogs "play fight" with their mouths & paw at each other ALL the time. It has taught my puppy awesome bite inhibition, & Gonzo has awesome bite inhibition as well. I think it's perfectly ok, actually I'm glad they play rough! It's healthy & normal for well-socialized dogs. They've never hurt each other, even by accident.

[Kfamr]

What's the problem? I was agreeing with her. Didn't you see the wink? :confused:


Maybe I didn't read it correctly, but it didn't seem like you were agreeing with her, rather being sarcastic. My bad. ;)

[applesmom]

Maybe I didn't read it correctly, but it didn't seem like you were agreeing with her, rather being sarcastic. My bad. ;)

That's okay. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference with just the printed word and no body language to go by. :)

[DrKym]

I have to agree, my dogs even the cocker play fight with teeth bared and snarls and barks and anything else you can think of. No one has ever been hurt, and when they are brought to events for foster and rescue are the most patient and sweet tempered with the untrained and exuberant ones!

I think, it is common courtesy no matter where you are to ASK, the other owners, but in this case, that duty was incumbent upon the club. It was their decision to allow an exuberant pup and a novice handler participate, the more experienced handler that hit Zeke should have been reprimanded. Zekes mom should have been discreetly told what constitutes appripriate behaviour, and if she could not get that from Zeke, then for someone to TEACH her how.

You do not hand over car keys and say you have watched me drive for 16 yrs so here ya go, they should not have handed her an off lead time and done the same. Everything takes time and learning, it is up to those of us that do know to make sure that those learning are taught, at their pace, in the way that is best for their animal.

Just my opinion.

[TamanduaGirl]

A mutual play fight is different from play agression. Just playing ruff taken all by it;s self isn't the problem either.

Hyzzie has play agression. She was feral when I got her having been dumped at a young age and fending for herself. She didn't know the difference between play and real fighting. She just had fun fighting. She still needs reminding.

Even just jumping all over another dog that's minding it's own busness and doesn't want to play is bad enough, though wasn't her issue really with strangers dogs. She had it real bad. She'd attack Quasi thinking it was play then try to correct her and she'd turn on me. I'm just lucky she found me most any other owner would of had her put down. She has drawn blood on me, in play!

She's a lot better now. She's always been sweet but she's still a big bully. She'd never want to hurt anyone. We call her our little nurse. She worries over everyone. She doesn't draw blood now and knows which people to play more gently with and who'll allow more.

Play agression is play to ruff. If a rottie pics up a chi and tosses it around that's to ruff. If it draws blood or makes the other dog yelp it's too ruff.

Play agression is using seriouse growls and not play growls but you need to know your dog to know the difference.

Play has gone to far if hackles are raised.

Play agression is being to forcefull. Trying to make another dog play when it doesn't want to. Hyzzie will pester Quasi and be all over him then if he snaps at her it actualy just eggs her on because now to her he's playing or she's is just being a bully and thrilled for a reaction. She's better with that now too but we have to be the ones to correct her for pushing him. Another example is the little dog running after the big dogs barking and nipping wagging it's tail the second it sees them at the park.

It's play aggression to run up to another dog, mainly strangers, and start playing ruff with no warning or work up to it. Some people play fight with friends or wrestle ect but it wouldn't be okay for a stranger or casual aquantince to run up to you and suddenly start doing it to you.

It's play agression to not take no for an answer. If the victom dog snaps at you or growls or says enough in some way and you just come right back for more.

They do have play fights and Quasi now just snaps at her when he's decided he's done. I don't like that but she does stop now when he does that. Since he started doing that he has trouble getting her to play sometimes because she doesn't know when he'll just snap and say enough but he couldn't get the point across before. He does get in trouble for that anyway. There are more exceptible ways to say I'm done and she'll get in trouble if she ignores them. Actualy he doesn't do it so much any more.

Play fighting is fine. Heck her favorite game is keep away and growling and snapping at us over a toy. That's fine too now that she knows her limits, with reminders. to ruff we stop. and if she's just played to long or we say stop she has too.

Hyzzie was a little mess she had just about every type of agression known to dog, play, food, possesion, territory, fear, redirrection, dominance A regular handful of fun.

Play agression is a real problem for anyone dealing with it. some play agression is linked to dominance and some is from being taken from mom to young and or not being taught what was to ruff by people and or other dogs at an apropriet age. Really it is linked to dominance to try and force another dog to play, while playing to ruff is mostly from not knowing better. Both are a problem, together it's worse.


My two dogs "play fight" with their mouths & paw at each other ALL the time. It has taught my puppy awesome bite inhibition, & Gonzo has awesome bite inhibition as well. I think it's perfectly ok, actually I'm glad they play rough! It's healthy & normal for well-socialized dogs. They've never hurt each other, even by accident.

[cali]

bcKarzy is correct, in flyball you need a thick skin, if you have a thick skin then its actually a really fun sport with fantastic people, I supposed though it can be kind of offensive if you dont. flyball people refer to Happy as "that evil dog" and highly experinced people in my club were afraid of handling her I could take huge offence to that, but I dont when I hear things that people say about me or my dogs, I just laugh it off, because hey, they dont know me very well, and they only know my dog in one situation. I laugh it off and just go with the flow. there are a few true rotton apples, but most people are just fun loving, and while they can seem rather rude and nasty, they really not trying to be.

[slleipnir]

Maybe I didn't read it correctly, but it didn't seem like you were agreeing with her, rather being sarcastic. My bad. ;)

I thought the same as Kay did...I guess I misread too...;)

[slleipnir]

Zeke "bites" if when he plays, but what dog doesn't? He in no way hurt any dog. The guys are just nuts. They're way to perfect. Their dogs do AWESOME and they sit around after complaining how terrible they were...geez. I joined flyball for fun. I talked to other people who quit that club because it's too competitive and they just wanted to have fun. The dogs Zeke went up to just weren't interested in playing. I kinda wonder if these people let their dogs play at all. I highly doubt it. I think "play" to them is running in their yard after a ball...which is good I guess, but dogs need to be dogs and that includes play fighting.

I think you need a thick skin for anything really, even day to day life...I just don't. I usually just leave the situation if it's too much as I get way to stressed and it's not worth it.

applesmom: yes I said rant, as in I needed to get it out as it was bothering me....I don't mind comments, I just don't want people going on about everything I did wrong in the situation, and how Zeke needs work...that is all very obvious. I don't need 5 people to tell me lol. I know no one was "yelling" but to me, it was hurtful. Intentional or not. All I wanted to talk about was the people and how they treated me, but I needed to explain the situation so people could see where I was coming from.

And I knew Zeke shouldn't cross, I knew the rules, but they kept putting me back up with other dogs...I didn't say oh please let me run with other dogs. THEY set up who runs with who. They know the dogs better than me to know who he could run with, knowing he may cross. They were horrible with helping me. I think one time I went away for a while and asked if someone could run Zeke if my dad took him. Like 4-5 people offered...and someone said I was just looking for them to train him?? Cause they ran him ONCE? Or maybe cause I kept asking for help with training him...I don't know.

The guy that hit Zeke never said one word to me the entire year + I was there. Not even "hi". My dad knows him and says he was always a bully. It really hurt me that everyone who "saw" him hitting my dog said "no, he didn't hit the dog" when I KNOW he did. Why would they lie about that?? Then people who I thought were friends just turned their backs on me. It really hurt me because I thought I fit in, and I thought I had "friends". They never liked me, nor did I ever fit in.

[Riptide]

I think with any dog sport you need "thick skin" as mentioned before.

A similar incident happened with Pixie at agility practice; one of the other handlers was walking her spaniel when Pixie and I were out on the course, and the cocker started to bark at her. Pixie then started to run toward her (we're still working on training with distractions) and even though she responded to my recall, at the next trial the spaniel's owner announced that Pixie had "come after" her dog at practice and to "stay away." :rolleyes:

So ehh...we changed out of that class and are now ina different one. I'm not letting it get to me too much, but I know it can be hard. I'm alot like you, in that I'm very sensitive, anxious, and get hurt easily.

[bckrazy]

Honestly, I don't have "thick skin" either, Audrey. I'm very sensitive and I always think of other people's feelings... and it sucks when they completely disregard mine.

To me, dog sports are for fun, and when people stop making it fun and instead make it their own sick/wierd/obsessive way of making themselves feel like the best or living vicariously through their dogs, it ruins the fun for everyone. I don't feel it's fair to expect me OR you to just ignore and put up with rude, inconsiderate, self-righteous A-hats... what's important is how you feel about Flyball, because Zeke will feed off of your energy. If it stresses you out this much, IMHO, I would look into other dog sports that will make both you and Zeke happy. There are tons out there! Frisbee, Agility, Tracking, Obedience, Rally-O, etc.

[cali]

Zeke "bites" if when he plays, but what dog doesn't? He in no way hurt any dog. The guys are just nuts. They're way to perfect. Their dogs do AWESOME and they sit around after complaining how terrible they were...geez. I joined flyball for fun. I talked to other people who quit that club because it's too competitive and they just wanted to have fun. The dogs Zeke went up to just weren't interested in playing. I kinda wonder if these people let their dogs play at all. I highly doubt it. I think "play" to them is running in their yard after a ball...which is good I guess, but dogs need to be dogs and that includes play fighting.


first Happy doesnt bite when she plays, she doesnt playfight at all. and I am one of those super competitive folks thanks, and I know a lot of others personally. remeber there are 2 types of flyball people, and they have 2 types of DOGS. there are the pet people who get their pet dog in flyball just for fun, that would be you. then there are people like me who choose their dogs FOR flyball and they compete to win, our dogs have fun, and our dogs are allowed to just be dogs, but our dogs have an "I want to win" streak, dont get me wrong, these dogs and us handlers love the sport and we enjoy it just as much as the for fun people, but we play to win, both the handlers AND the dogs have the desire to win. know how many trainers said I should not do Flyball with Happy? every single one. every last one of them thought Happy would hate it and it would be to stressfull at that time I agree'd, Happpy diidnt seem to have any insterest in it, after a break from the sport she came to a parctice and when running against slow dog buddy of hers she got a taste of winning. and never looked back, now try telling her that she doesnt like flyball. no, what Happy hates is loosing, she has an extremly competitive streak, she loves to win, and she loves to show off doing it, she is like that is any sport, for example I was playing frisbee with her one day in a feild, when it was just me and her she did not even try, not once did she even bother to try catching it, then a person walking by the feild and paused to watch, suddenly Happy was leaping through the air, catching every single disc and doing funky flips while she was at it, when the guy left Happy stopped trying again...actually now that I descibe her she really is just like me lol I have a hard time competing with Misty though because she could not care less if she wins, its drives me batty lol

[slleipnir]

I was refering to the people in my own club. I don't know anyone else so I can't really say anything about it. To me, a dog should be allowed to play fight and be a dog...socialize with other dogs. I'm sure you do, but these people don't. They don't want any other dog to touch theirs. I personally feel bad for that because wild dogs play fight. I've seen TV shows were parents work their kids so hard that all they think about is training and nothing else. They say they like it, yes, but when given a break they admitted they didn't like to do it ALL the time, and they wanted to be kids. I'm not saying dogs are the same, but it's just my opinion. I'm not saying flyball is bad, don't do what you;re doing. It's just my opinion, like you had yours about the way I had Zeke in the club.

"pets" should be able to play too. I don't want to play to be competitive...I just want to have fun and enjoy my dog.

[cali]

oh I know,I didnt just mean me, I meant out of all the people I personaly know who are very competitive, the dogs may be kept on a short leash and may appear uptight in practice and tourny situations, but that doesnt mean that dogs are not allowed to be dogs at home :)

there are clubs with just for fun teams for the people like you who are just in it for fun, though I am afraid you will have to go through a lot of false advertising to find the right one for you. there are a lot of clubs that SAY they are just for fun because they started that way, but they got bitten by the competitive bug and changed, yet still tell people they are "just for fun". hope you find a real just for fun club for you and Zeke :)

[king2005]

Reminds me of any spots that young kids play. The folks take it WAY to seriously & end up ruining all the fun :(

I know Zeke is a good boy, just a little too playful, but hes not a bad dog, hes doing what a young happy dog does, Play.

I wonder if you could train Zeke to act differently with a different kind of lead on.. like a harness. When he wears that, hes NOT to be sociable with other dogs.. but once its off, he can be all silly again.

I did that with my old dog. When his harness was on, he was working & had to ignore all people & all dogs.... when his halti was on, he could play & be silly.

It might help :D
If not, just remember Zeke is a wonderful fella no matter what those snobs say :D

[Canis-Lupess]

The dogs Zeke went up to just weren't interested in playing. I kinda wonder if these people let their dogs play at all. I highly doubt it. I think "play" to them is running in their yard after a ball...which is good I guess, but dogs need to be dogs and that includes play fighting.

I've never stopped my dogs from playing with others when they were pups. They made their own minds up when they got a bit older that they didn't want to play with other dogs. Just because a dog doesn't want to play with other dogs doesn't mean it's owner never allowed it to play.
Having Border collies, they are an obsessive breed who are bred to work, not go up to other dogs to play. Their job is the most important thing in their life and if they do flyball, then flyball is the most important thing in their life. They simply aren't interested in play fighting, they have better things to do and some of them can get quite narky if other playful dogs run up to them and jump on them and bite them in play.
My dogs would go completely nuts if another dog ran up to them and started biting them, even if it only meant to play.

Think about it, would a shepherd want a working dog who only wanted to go playfighting with other dogs? No, he wouldn't, he wants a dog that is dedicated to it's job and that is how Border collies have been bred and they are famous for this attribute. I know that not only Border Collies might show this tendancy.

Like humans, dogs have very varied personalities and this is the case no matter what type of training they get etc...
Not all dogs want to playfight. In fact, many older dogs don't want to playfight. It's more common for young dogs, pups and those not much more than pups, to want to run up and have playfights.
Many dogs might playfight with other dogs that they live with but not want to do it with strange dogs...which is, again, understandable.

Saying all of this, I agree that the club made a lot of mistakes and handled things in an inappropriate way etc...
I also agree that this club is probably not the right place for you if they are too competitive whilst you just want some relaxing fun. The club I went to was more about having fun than being all competitive.

I just wanted to clarify that you are mistaken in thinking those dogs don't want to play simply because their owners never allowed them to and that ALL dogs need to playfight when they don't.

[agilityk9trainer]

You are absoutuely right, Canis. I actually find the dogs that are the happiest I've ever known are the agility dogs owned by highly competitive trainers. These dogs are doing what they LIVE for. My agility sheltie would like nothing better than to run an agiity course in competition. He LOVES it. Playing with other dogs - he can take it or leave it.

People who make statements along the lines that competitive dogs aren't allowed to be dogs just don't understand competition dogs or how to train one. When not working, my dogs are like anyone elses. In fact, my dogs get more privledges than most other dogs. They're indoors, allowed in any room, allowed on any piece of sittable furniture, allowed moments of extremely high energy (play) without disruption even in the house, allowed to bark their heads off at people walking by the house, allowed to bark their heads off if someone comes to the door, etc. When not under a command, my dogs get to live the high life. Under command, they are expected to behave. I just don't give commands that often during daily life. The main time they are under command is on the agility field, and then, they WANT to be there. They would rather be on an agility course with me than anywhere else in the world.

People tend to put too much of their human feelings onto their dogs. Because a person doesn't want to work doesn't mean a dog doesn't, too. Most working dogs not only want to work, the NEED to work, and if you don't give them a job, they become destructive.

I think it's not only unfair - but even mean - to label people who are competitive in any canine sport as being "cruel" to their dogs. Believe me, there are not better treated dogs in the world. Nor are there any happier dogs in the world than ones owned by the truly competitive in the dog world. Why? Because these people know their dogs and how to make them happy in ways others wouldn't understand.

That being said, let's define "truly competitive." I'm not talking about someone who WANTS to be competitive, but someone who is. In other words someone with the titles, knowledge, experience level to truly be competitive in their sport. These are the ones who often win, and win big. There are a lot of other folks who think they're competitive or who wish they were competitive. Some of these lack knowledge to train their dogs properly, and you do see dogs being over handled in the owner's misguided attempt to become one of the competitive trainers. However, the competitive trainers' dogs wouldn't be competitive if trained harshly. That's precisely why they ARE competitive in the first place! The dog loves what it does because the owner has made the sport fun. Thus, then come the ribbons and titles.

The truly competitive have made their sport a game for the dog. The best game in the world. You can't do this by over-handling your dog and not allowing them to be dogs. You can't force train speed. That only comes when the dog loves what it's doing.

[applesmom]

This discussion should have been carried over to another thread as these responses have absolutely nothing to do with the original post or poster. Guess it's too late to change now as this has evolved into an extremely informative thread. :)

Great posts canis-lupess and agilityk9trainer!!!!!!!!!

One of the first things I learned many years ago is; "you have to think like a dog to train a dog".

Not even the best trainers or behaviorists can teach a dog to "fake it" if they aren't truly happy in what they're doing.

As far as dogs and play fighting; it's normal and natural with dogs that are thoroughly familiar with each other. However in the canine world it's extremely dangerous to expect any dog to know a strange dog is "only playing" when they come tearing at them full force, and immediatly begin roughhousing ad "play biting".

Just as in the human world there are right ways and wrong ways for dogs to become acquainted. It's vital that young dogs learn the basic social skills for their own protection as well as that of other dogs they might encounter.

What if the dog loved to play with children? Is there ever a time that it would be acceptable for any dog to run up to a strange child and begin "play biting"?

[agilityk9trainer]

All good points, Applesmom.

Yes, this thread has certainly changes, as threads have a tendancy to do. :)

[cloverfdx]

Sorry!!

[slleipnir]

I'm glad my thread was hijacked and no one listened when I asked not to go off-topic. :)

When I said that about dogs not be allowed to play with others, I was ONLY talking about the people AT MY CLUB as I KNOW they don't let their dogs play with other dogs. They have told me. They are very stuck up with their dogs. I don't think they even like other people touching their dogs.

I'm sorry if you thought I ment every competitor does this. I believe I said it 2 times that I only am talking about my club, which I know about. I supose I see their point. If they wre to play with an aggressive dog, it might ruin their sports future....I stopped reading posts here as I know it's likely to upset me.

[slleipnir]

Man you guys don't listen to a word I say.

[TamanduaGirl]

It is a great idea. It's exactly how service dogs are handled. They are all business when in vest/harness but in a normal collar/harness they are off duty.

[BC_MoM]

Man you guys don't listen to a word I say.

Sadly, it happens a lot on PT.