Ligers

[Argranade]

Yet more retards have cross breed animals, oh well nothing I can do about it .. sure is a HUGE animal but I think the people should be smart enough to seperate the Tigers & Lions, oh wait they probably needed the attention. :rolleyes:

http://www.tigers-animal-actors.com/about/liger/liger.html

[Chilli]

Crossing lions with tigers isn't anything new.
I met this one (http://www.turpentinecreek.org/KittyCorner/2jade.htm) a few years ago at a wildlife refuge.

[junescrater716]

I see nothing wrong with it. Ligers are beautiful creatures. They're more intelligent, more aggressive (which isn't very good but at least they can survive better), and like I said before beautiful!!!

[TFTpwnsYou]

A Liger is pretty much my favorite animal...with preferred skills in majic. :)

[Argranade]

Of course there beautiful animals but it's not normal,

It's weird how some looders think it's NOT ok to cross dogs then it's actualy ok to cross lion's & tigers, I think if it was a mistake that would be ok but if there doing it on purpose then that's just plain wrong.

So if someone put a dalmation and pug in the same cage and they breed & the person forgot there was a male and female, I geuss that would be a mistake too huh ... :rolleyes:

[Pembroke_Corgi]

My issue with the link you provided isn't necessarily that the animal is a liger, but because the poor thing has a chain on it's neck. I don't think wild animals belong in any kind of circus act. It's upsetting for the animal and dangerous for the handler.

[Argranade]

My issue with the link you provided isn't necessarily that the animal is a liger, but because the poor thing has a chain on it's neck. I don't think wild animals belong in any kind of circus act. It's upsetting for the animal and dangerous for the handler.

Yeah that's also what pissed me off, now they have the poor thing in the circus.

[Husky15]

I don't know what to say about the crossing of Lions and Tigers -- it just sorta creeps me out. Lions weren't meant to mate with Tigers, but there really is nothing we can do.

I saw a picture of a Liger on Google one time and I really was surprised because I heard of them on Napoleon Dynamite, so I was like, "Holy crap! They do exist!" They are beautiful, though.

[Miss Z]

Creating ligers is all very well and they certainly are beautiful animals, but sometimes I think it would be far better to just try to preserve the ever diminshing number of tigers (and also, Asiatic lions, although I doubt that they use those to make ligers) before it's too late. :(

[borzoimom]

There was a show a few years back, about this horrid place called "Ligertown" that the cats were terribly treated, with miles of fences interlocking and one night one or two of the cats attacked these dreadful people when they went to feed them. Killing the people then they got loose. The sheriffs office were called, and by morning I forgot how many but it was alot most of the ligers were dead- shot dead out of defense from the officers. The rest of the cats were rescued, and placed in some santuaries- but it was horrid what happened there..
And the sanctuary spokeswoman said- this is not a natural species- they only life a liger would have is in someone's cage, or a traveling type circus, or a roadside zoo... Not even a real zoo where they are well cared for and for public education- usually the worst of circumstances.

[sirrahved]

A Liger is pretty much my favorite animal...with preferred skills in majic. :)

You beat me to it:)

[TamanduaGirl]

It's not like tigers and lions are over populated breeds like dogs. They are also two different species, not breeds. They are better compaired to mules. Should no one ever breed mules then just because crosses shouldn't happen? Also tigers and lions do have cross bred in the wild in the nature reserves because their territories over lap there. It's not exactly full on wild but they are living wild in Africa. So it's not hurting anything. It's really nothing along the lines of cross bred domestics. Again it's cross species like mules or hybrid cats.

It DOES also help conservation. Most people just don't pay attention unless it's big and flashy. You'd be surprised how many people don't even know the difference between a tiger and a lion much less truly care if they survive in the wild. You see tigers and lions frequently in the media but they don't really pay attention or care. But they see something new and different and they get interested, ask questions, and learn about both species and their plight.

Second issue circuses. They are not mean and inherently cruel. You're pet is not abused by being taught tricks or doing them in front of people, agility shows, dog shows. I've even seen llama agility! In fact if you don't train your dog and interact with it it's considered neglect. Really it's the same for exotics. They get enrichment by learning and doing tricks. Even zoo animals are usually taught to do some simple things like target. You may not call it a trick but there's no real difference. The animal is being taught to do something on command.

So what is the problem? They have to travel? Lots of domestic animals have to travel too, again dogs shows, agility, just a family pet of a truck driver, petting zoo animals. Ours LOVED being in the zoo and raised traveling so they didn't mind it. They did better with it than we did. In fact the exotics were least phased by the traveling.

There's nothing wrong with a chain any more than there is with a leash ir a halter on a horse. None of those should be kept on all the time but there's nothing wrong with using them properly. Most of you in fact have exotics your cute little fish and birdies included. It's no worse for a tiger or lion born and raised in captivity than it is your fish stuck in a tank or bird in a cage. The animals get their exercise when they preform they are not working all year and have a home base that is usually very nice.

The elephants I worked around had a huge ranch they lived on and got to roam. They got their own big fancy airconditioned trailers while traveling and a special area set up at each location for them. They got breaks for food and water play time were even brought special things like up rooted stumps to play with. They weren't walking around in poop because someone was right there to catch it as it came out, HA. They were trained by giving sugar cubes. Anytime one did something they liked which included making noise they ran and gave a sugar cube. Weather on a command or not. Basicaly all they had to do was ask(trumpet) and they got a treat.

Are some performing animals abused. Sure it happens. Just like some pets are abused too. That does not mean all pets are abused or that it's abusive to own or train a pet. They enjoy the stimulation and interaction. They even enjoy the crowds. The elephants loved showing off for the crowds. After having lived around them awhile you could just tell they loved it. They were spunky and had personality. They weren't scared of their trainers.

Ligertown - yes it happened just like there are puppy mills but it not on so wide spread a scale. Really that was more like a horder case they weren't really even selling them they just collected/bred and kept and didn't know where to stop. There are still fewer big exotc incidents than there are domestic dog incidents and that is proportionately speaking too.

Road side zoo is ALL zoos as well. USDA deffinition does not make any exceptions. All zoos are by the side of a road.

As for the handler well sure it's dangerous but so is horse riding in fact pretty much all states have a law aknowlaging equestrian activities as inherintly dangerouse and so you can't sue if you get hurt. A person chooses to have or work with a large animal domestic or not and they do so knowing the risks. Like skydiving and driving. You know there are risks. People going to the shows know or should know there is some risk as well. And really you know that's why a lot of them go.

To say none one should have or bred ligers because someone abused theirs is faulty logic and to follow that no one should have dog because some abuse theirs.

If you don't want to see big cats abused or neglected then you should be against abuse not animal acts.

[borzoimom]

These road side shows, or traveling zoos seldom provide a healthy environment. More the road side places, or worse- the people that buy a wild animal as a pet. Not enough knowledge of proper diet or care. I have seen so many shows with this same message. And I fail to see how mixed two different species has anything to do with conservation. This is a man made situation- ... The only other cross species that I know can occur is a bobcat and a domestic cat. I have seen the kittens as this hit our local news and they had them pictures in the paper.

[BitsyNaceyDog]

The only other cross species that I know can occur is a bobcat and a domestic cat. Horses and zebras can crossbreed too. There are also mules (cross between a donkey and a horse), which someone already mentioned. I'm sure there are others, but those are all I know of (or at least can remember at the moment).

[TamanduaGirl]

or worse- the people that buy a wild animal as a pet.

Well that happens to be me, and my Tamandua is very healthy and happy, thank you very much. It's also tons of my friends who have all manner of critters big and small who are also happy and healthy beings.

It's also impossible to have a "wild" animal as a pet. A wild animal is just that living in the wild. they are non-domesticated, exotic, and or tame but not wild. Most exotics are born and bred in captivity for many generations. Hamsters for example are exotic and have been bred as pets in the US not nearly as long as say fennec foxes have been.

As far as most owners and "roadside zoos" taking poor care of their animals, where do you get that? Where are the statistics and the study that generated them? Bad cases make the news good cases don't and it skews the public image. USDA regulates all mammal exhibition to the public. By Usda definition San Diego wild animal park is a roadside zoo. any stationary animal exhibit is. It's not like "puppy mill" where it automatically means something bad.

Most have standard conditions or better since they have to keep usda standards. I fail to see how a private owner or a smaller business than a zoo is automatically a bad owner. How are they worse? They tend to be more hands on and interactive with their animals. AZA Zoo's mostly have hands off policies now and the animals actually suffer for that. Having to be sedated for simple procedures because they try to keep them "wild" where as one kept more hands on is used to being handled and is less likely to need sedation for simple things and so avoid the risks and extra stress.

The only difference between an AZA zoo and any other is a slip of paid for paper. AZA is not a government agency. It's best classed as a guild like the screen actors guild. Big AZA zoos have special problems of their own. You have the zoo vet, nutritionist, keeper, and the money guy all arguing over what is best. Improvements are hard to make because you need all to agree. The keepers who work closest with the animals rarely get listened to. I know this from talking with keepers.

For the record a bobcat and domestic cat cross is impossible! There has never been a proven case. Not a single proven case with DNA. That would be easy if it were true. There's actually tons of hybrid cats but a bobcat/domestic is not one of them. A Pixiebob is just a nice looking bobtailed domestic.

[Argranade]

Cross breeding is wrong end of story, I don't hate the crossed animals but it's not right what humans are trying to do in this freaking earth, it's dumb & people still are not smart enough to stop this madness.


It's not like tigers and lions are over populated breeds like dogs.
No there not over populated there CROSS breed, that's the point.

Second issue circuses. They are not mean and inherently cruel. You're pet is not abused by being taught tricks or doing them in front of people, agility shows, dog shows. I've even seen llama agility! In fact if you don't train your dog and interact with it it's considered neglect. Really it's the same for exotics. They get enrichment by learning and doing tricks. Even zoo animals are usually taught to do some simple things like target. You may not call it a trick but there's no real difference. The animal is being taught to do something on command.
Most circuses use chains and electric shocks to control animals,

I went to a circuse in Toronto & the stupid man was using an electric poll at the poor elephants just so he could get them to do what he wanted, no matter how tame a lion is in a circuse it's still not right because these animals feel stress with all the flashing lights & screaming of kids .. I mean people should leave them in the wild .. I don't even like Zoo's anymore because I feel the animals should be free and not breed in captivaty.

These animals are dangerouse and if they show there natural anger to a human they will be killed for doing what only comes natural & I know its NOT fair, you have a exotic pet but it's not in stress & your not having flashing lights or strange people looking at it all day like in zoo's or circuses so there is a difference.

[Twisterdog]

There has been a stuffed Liger at the zoo in Salt Lake City, Utah since I was a very small child ... probably 35 years ago, that I remember. I think it was born at the zoo, and they stuffed it when it died. So, they are not a new thing, by any means.

As far as intentionally breeding a lion with a tiger .... WHY? Both lions and tigers are losing habitat in the wild, are victims of poachers, etc. I highly doubt if a modern zoo is going to take a "Liger", since it is not a natural species. I just fail to see what is to be gained by "making" a new crossbreed like this. Do we not have enough trouble in the world providing safety and space for natural species of big cats? There's no purpose to this whatsoever, except someone getting some publicity and making some money. If someone truly wants to benefit big cats, they should donate some time or money to saving the lives and habitat of naturally occuring predators in danger of extinction in the wild. Now that would be a much better hobby!

[#1Wolflover]

what alot of people don't know is that ligers tend to have more problems, hints the breeding of the lion and tiger, I wish I could find that article that says what complications ligers have. They are unhealthy animals I love all animals so don't get me wrong, ligers are cool but there breeders should be ashamed! :)

[TamanduaGirl]

Sorry know this fell off the main page but for the most have been away for a few days and just can't let it go as it was.

You saw one bad incident, which you reported them for right? cuz that's obvious abuse. I don't know about Toronto but there are laws against that here, and so all or almost all circuses abuse their animals. Or is it because someone told you so, you heard it on some other website.

That's the same as saying most pitbull owners fight their dogs and do drugs just because everyone says so. Performing and traveling and being in a circus is not abuse. Abuse is abuse electric shock is abuse but then that would also have to include all dog owners who use shock collars and cattle owners who use cattle prods, IMO, you can't say it's abuse for one and not another if it's on the same level and not amped up voltage like cattle prodding a chihuahua.

And as I said before I don't see that chains are any worse than any other sort of leash or tether both would be wrong left on ALL the time but they are freed for parts of the day for exercise and the performance, bath time ect. I don't see it as abuse to use a chain as a leash/tether especial for a big animal. They do have care standards and laws (in the US) they have to follow just like anyone else who exhibits their animals to the public. and abuse isn't allowed, they can't withhold food for training, beat them ect. Sometimes laws need strengthand, like or state laws doesn't make it illegal for someone to come on your land and kill your animal! You could probably prosecute them for tresspassing and property damage(pet being preperty) but not animal abuse unless the death was drawn out so abuse for not making it quick. Then you need to try and change that and they are localy. You can write letters to support such proposed legislation then.

Are some abused probably does still happen just like show horse people sometimes sore their horses but that doesn't mean all show horse people are abusing their horses in that way. The only thing to do is to punish those that abuse their animals not stop circuses or horse shows to try and prevent abuse. Abusive people will continue to do so as long as owning animals is allowed. Laws can not and do not prevent crimes they are only meant to punish the offenders and at best act as a deterrent.

"leave them in the wild" hmm okay but what wild? There are definate good places like san diego wild animal park, they have acres to roam. They did get a rare import of elephants some years back because the preserve was either send them away or kill them because they didn't have enough room. Was it better they die?

I really don't think it;s better dead/extinct than in a cage. If those dolphins had been i captivity even if it were just doing sea worl shows then there would still be soe around and some hope of reintraduction IF down the road their envornment was recoveded and if not then at least they would not be totaly gone.

I worked with traveling animals on exhibit they aren't stressed by what they are used too. We had deer and wallabies. Wallabies being especialy known for stress and jumpiness. Ours weren't even bottle raised we let mom raise them going about her normal daily life of travel ect. The joeys grew up tame as any bottle baby. Loud music big crows and yes flashing lights from cameras if nothing else never bothered them.

Had a lady come in one day look at one of the wallabies standing there and start sreaming abuse! It was terrified! The other was just laying there but this was was scared stiff. I checked said it was fine she ranted then eventualy left saying she'd turn us in. That wallaby just lay down and took a nap once she shut up and left. HA. a stressed scared wallaby does not just stand there. Running around doesn't automatically mean stress either, like bunnies and kitties they sometimes just need a mad dash, hop around to stretch their muscles. Really the only way to know for sure on things like that is to know the animals. The point though being they are fine with what they are used to and raised with. They don't care if people look at them all day, they are not self conscious like people would be. The exotics did better than the domestics with the whole thing. The Deer missed it when on the ranch. Go into their space and the whole herd comes running for attention.

As for dangerous sure but so are big dogs, horses, cows ect. More people are killed by horses each year than big cats. More people are killed by herbivores than carnivores. Every animal posses a risk. People working with them know this and except it. It they mess up and something happens there are laws in place to deal with it. It almost never happens that an exotic escapes and kills some one if there is an incident it is usually to a keeper and secondly to a someone who chose to be there even if it was by buying a ticket.

In short SSL (species specific legislation) is just as bad as BSL. Your welcome to your openion and it certainly wont change if you think it's moraly wrong but the problem is your openion is becoming laws all over. Laws should not be moral based. Everyone has different morals. Some cultures think it;s moraly wrong for a woman to be seen in public, hence the burka. Some think it;s moraly wrong to have pets and it's been out lawed to sell dogs in some countries because it's moraly wrong and to American. So who's morals should be law? Laws should be based on harm not morals. If someone harms an animal it's abuse and a crime it's not harmful to travel with animals or have people see them other than family.

If you really want to help. Support enforcement of abuse laws. Voluntarily pay more to envorcement agencies so they might be able to hire more people. Help push through more funding(taxes). Push through tougher laws on abuse if need be. But passing laws to say no one should have them or even just those people(circuses) can't because some are abused is exactly the same as saying pit bulls should be banned because some fight, abuse, or neglect them, and both are just as wrong.

[wolflady]

A Liger is pretty much my favorite animal...with preferred skills in majic. :)

LOL LOL Just what I was thinking!

That's aaaaawesssome *snicker*

[Suki Wingy]

It's not like tigers and lions are over populated breeds like dogs.
I agree with your whole post except the first sentance. Tigers in captivity are incredibly overpopulated. There are nore legally owned tigers in Texas than in all of India.

[My Peanuts]

I see nothing wrong with it. Nature stops cross breeding of animals that are not compatiable. Are you against Zebras too? Same deal.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

I really don't think it;s better dead/extinct than in a cage. If those dolphins had been i captivity even if it were just doing sea worl shows then there would still be soe around and some hope of reintraduction IF down the road their envornment was recoveded and if not then at least they would not be totaly gone.

I don't think anyone is saying that animals shouldn't be in captivity, but there is a big difference between a zoo imitating an animal's natural habitat and a side show exhibit.

And yes there are "wild" animals- they are non-domesticated. Horses, dogs, cats, etc, have been specifically bred to coexist with humans.

[Argranade]

I see nothing wrong with it. Nature stops cross breeding of animals that are not compatiable. Are you against Zebras too? Same deal.

I'm talking about animals breed by humans, if they do it in the wild naturaly I realy could care less, but some humans think it's intresting to cross breed animals, for science or whatever other crap reasons they come up with.

There are some animals you can cross like pigeons, I realy don't know where breeds like pouters, fantails, russian tumblers all came from but if they where wild they actualy would cross breed un purpose.

Zebra's are actualy my 2nd favourite animal next to pigeons ...

[Twisterdog]

I see nothing wrong with it. Nature stops cross breeding of animals that are not compatiable. Are you against Zebras too? Same deal.

A zebra is a naturally occurring species in the wild. Humans did not create zebras. A wild zebra is most certainly not the "same deal" as a liger in a cage somewhere.

[Alasse]

And yes there are "wild" animals- they are non-domesticated. Horses, dogs, cats, etc, have been specifically bred to coexist with humans.

Horses, dogs, cats etc were once non domesticated animals, meaning 'wild'

So its ok that humans domesticated these animals over hundreds of years...but humans should not attempt to domesticate any other ones...is that what you mean?

Why is it that big cats or so called 'wild' animals cannot over hundred of years be domesticated? IE Breed to coexist with humans

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Horses, dogs, cats etc were once non domesticated animals, meaning 'wild'

So its ok that humans domesticated these animals over hundreds of years...but humans should not attempt to domesticate any other ones...is that what you mean?

Why is it that big cats or so called 'wild' animals cannot over hundred of years be domesticated? IE Breed to coexist with humans
Well, domestic cats ARE essentially domesticated "big" cats. I think they are mostly closely related to African and European wild cats. And, it does take a lot of generations to make an entirely new species. Just like dogs are closely related to wolves, they are not wolves- they are another species. How many generations of intentional breeding this would need I have no idea.

You could never make a new species with the Liger because they are a crossbreed- and therefore sterile. If they found a way to breed a tiger/lion and the offspring was fertile this might be possible- but it would require some genetic engineering. The definition of a species is a group the can interbreed to produce fertile offspring. Lions and tigers are closely enough related that they can produce offspring, but they are not of the same species so the offspring is sterile. You cannot therefore breed a liger to a liger.

[TamanduaGirl]

I agree with your whole post except the first sentance. Tigers in captivity are incredibly overpopulated. There are nore legally owned tigers in Texas than in all of India.

doesn't that just mean the wild tigers are under populated? If there aren't a bunch of them lacking for homes then the captive population isn't over populated but a wider diversity of animals focused on would be nice. and yes some wind up in sanctuaries but it's a smal percent and usualy either an illegaly owned one or one where it became illegal after they already had it.

[TamanduaGirl]

I don't think anyone is saying that animals shouldn't be in captivity, but there is a big difference between a zoo imitating an animal's natural habitat and a side show exhibit.

And yes there are "wild" animals- they are non-domesticated. Horses, dogs, cats, etc, have been specifically bred to coexist with humans.

Of course there's a difference but I don't see one automaticly being worse.

Zoo animals are more stressed often because they have those hands off policies and the animals aren't used to people and can't be handled for simple procedures and check ups. Most of the animals also go into smaller indoor pens at night. They don't live as if fully wild.

And I think I went into detail about why I don't think it's stressful just to be in a show or exhibit other than a zoo. Some may do it wrong and stress them but the USDA laws do mention how stressed an animal looks and that being a problem if it appears stressed and so a violation of the law.

As for wild dictionary definition
Occurring, growing, or living in a natural state
Yes undomesticated but they aren't wild. Tigers and lions aren't captured from the wild any more even they are bred in captivity. Even if an animal were to come from the wild after a bit of time and effort it would be tame and so no longer wild.

As for instincts even dogs have them. Horses have them. Hamsters still have them and as mentioned hamsters have been bred in captivity for a much shorter period than foxes. for an example of a double standard due to cuteness factor. Every species or even breed has it's own special instincts to work with. Forgetting that is what gets people in trouble even with dogs.

Dogs are the only animal bred to the point of domestication people call the standard and that being obedient and wanting lots of attention from their owner.

[TamanduaGirl]

there have been occasional cases of ligers that weren't steral but it's rare. Just like with mules there is a rare non sterile one but then they have to brred to a tiger lion or a horse or mule since you wouldn't be able to find another nonsterile hybrid, most likely.

It only takes about 40yrs of intensive selective breeding to get a domesticated species it takes more if you aren't so strict in your breeding practices
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tame_Silver_Fox
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/807641/posts

If you hybrid a domestic to a non-domestic it only take a few generations and after a certain number they aren't sterile any more, like with the small cat hybrids but with most of those it's usually just the male that's sterile as they are more closely related. And it's the same case as above they are non-domestic bred to domestic, then hybrid bred to domestic, hybrid to domestic till a generation that leaves them with all the desirable domestic traits but still looking like a non-domestic.

Mules haven't turned into their own species yet since no one has pushed to like they do with the hybrid cats but mules are still hugely popular.

If you think a Hybrid is wrong no matter if it's a hybrid breed dog or a hybrid exotic domestic species then there's nothing I can say but to those more open that might think a mule is okay but a liger isn't then it's worth thinking over a bit more.

[TamanduaGirl]

oh and meant this to be in the last post but a dog is 100% DNA the same as a wolf a dog and a wolf are essentially different breeds or you could call dogs a subspecies of wolf as sience now classifies them. There's as yet no genetic test to determine a wolf from a dog or hybrid of the two.

[Suki Wingy]

doesn't that just mean the wild tigers are under populated? If there aren't a bunch of them lacking for homes then the captive population isn't over populated but a wider diversity of animals focused on would be nice. and yes some wind up in sanctuaries but it's a smal percent and usualy either an illegaly owned one or one where it became illegal after they already had it.
Well, it's to the point where some zoos are euthenizing them.

[TamanduaGirl]

I hadn't heard of that but i know they only want "pure breed" perfect cats in their programs. Zoos used to sell over stocked animals to private keepers but it's not considered politicly correct to do so any more so I could see it being possible but I'll need to look and see if there's any articles on that. I mean that stuff is all made public through the freedom of information act so groups can get a hold of their records from USDA so if they were euthanizing just because there was no other zoo to take them and still breeding that would be big news so I'm a bit doubtful right now. They make a big stink about every death at a zoo natural causes or not.