Breeder Impressions

[applesmom]

This discussion could be an extremely educational one and deserves it's own thread completely away from the New Baby thread. I'm sure we can all agree that not a single one of us wants to spoil anyone's joy over a new puppy by continuing the discussion in that thread.

Let's begin with this quote from borzoimom: "I know honey, and that is why I checked into this. You would have heard from me by now if something felt out of place. I know what to ask, how to say what, how to get the information, and I was impressed. ( that is not easy to do with me as you know..).."


Borzoimom using your research in this instance as an example; can you elaborate on the questions you asked and the "Impressive" answers that led you to feel secure about this breeder? Your response and the discussion that would most certainly follow could be a valuable tool for anyone who is looking for a healthy well adjusted pet quality puppy in the future.

[cali]

I am curious myself, I scoured every last bit I could find on this breeder, and I did not find anything at all the least bit impressive, I know full well when expressions are normal for a pug, exprssions had nothing to do with my comments in the other thread, the puppy is cute sure, and I have no problem with mismarks, but it concerned me that the parents had no titles, no apperent health certifcations, and did not not look right. as far as I am concerned nobdy has any buisness breeding if it is not to better the breed. in most cases I am against show breeding, because of my working BC background. however Pugs do not HAVE a working purpose, their lap dogs, so as far as I am concerned if your not breeding pugs to standard then your not breeding properly. the parnets of the pups are PET quality, no more and should have been spayed.

[borzoimom]

This discussion could be an extremely educational one and deserves it's own thread completely away from the New Baby thread. I'm sure we can all agree that not a single one of us wants to spoil anyone's joy over a new puppy by continuing the discussion in that thread.

Let's begin with this quote from borzoimom: "I know honey, and that is why I checked into this. You would have heard from me by now if something felt out of place. I know what to ask, how to say what, how to get the information, and I was impressed. ( that is not easy to do with me as you know..).."


Borzoimom using your research in this instance as an example; can you elaborate on the questions you asked and the "Impressive" answers that led you to feel secure about this breeder? Your response and the discussion that would most certainly follow could be a valuable tool for anyone who is looking for a healthy well adjusted pet quality puppy in the future.
No problem applesmom- I called and asked about the puppies. I asked how old the female was and the male. I asked what tests they did on them before breeding- I always listen for a pause- I got no pause and told- not rehearsed just open and honest-. I asked how many puppies were born in the litter, how many died ( none) then asked if they loose puppies in their litters- I got a quick NONE then irratated like why would you ask that? I said well pugs are known to have litters that need a C section- then I heard calm in the voice ( I think they thought I was looking for a puppy to breed) then calm in the voice and said well it can happen but we try for smaller males. We had one C section a few years back but the female only had two pups. I asked if they ever showed their dogs. They said they tried but not alot of shows in the area ( I had already checked and they only had 5 shows in a 4 month period even near where they were) then she said also with puppies coming I did not want to take them to shows.. ( fell over to me- that would have been my worries too with a litter coming- i do not go anywhere when a litter is coming- the whole pregnancy or during when they are pups under 2 shots).. Then she asked me a few questions what I wanted as they did not have any other puppies- and I fessed up that I was checking on a puppy a dear friend was looking at from them.. She giggled- and said she had not been checked out often, but loved the fact she was... Then we got more into detail- it is a pug lover- loves the breed, has two nice ones, but really not showing much because it takes 4 months out of showing and I agree with that. I asked about size, the weight of the pups at birth, shots given- and all of it fit what a caring owner that loved a breed would do... I NEVER heard wild ruckus in the back ground like a house with alot of dogs- NEVER HEARD- anything but peace in the house with the occasional puppy noise so obviously she was even sitting with the pups during our whole conversation. I asked her to say nothing to " junes" and I just wanted to check it out as they loved curly soo much! I could just hear the compassion in her voice- said hold on a few times as I could hear her dogs came first and not some lady on a phone, and I was impressed- and that is hard to do with me! Also- the pictures I got later on email- the dogs are nice looking dogs- good heads and shoulders- good topline- and nicely built- hardly poor quality breeding stock if you will. She has few respritory problems, and anyone getting this breeds knows the genetic problems in store- however- the parents are clear of this, and good characters.
It takes conversation- listening to tones of voice to your questions, but also the pauses- which means- what should I say to the listener... I heard nothing held back in responses other than when I asked about free whelp and we laughed about that as she got worried I was asking for reasons of having puppies of my own= A TOTAL RED FLAG TO ANY BREEDER TO WATCH OUT!!!! ( I didnt sell a shepherd pup once because the husband kept asking me how many puppies a shepherd could have-- you know that cold chilll you get when something is wrong??? I had it...)

[cali]

thanks for explaining that borzoimom, most of us only had access to the pages from from the webpages the parents looked bad and there were no testing or anything of the sort mentioned, the the pages alone I would not have run and not walked from this breeder.

[borzoimom]

thanks for explaining that borzoimom, most of us only had access to the pages from from the webpages the parents looked bad and there were no testing or anything of the sort mentioned, the the pages alone I would not have run and not walked from this breeder.
If you want me to check out some breeder- I have free long distance and I would be happy to do so... lol...and more thing cali- I also do not list all the testings I do either... Someone doing webpages, if not a dog person, would not know to include things ... As a dog person- I do... The non showing person sees listing tests as their dogs are sick... sounds stupid to dog people but they do... But at the same time- a website that lists tests a-z also scares me more- they have a ton of dogs... look out!

[caseysmom]

I personally have a new policy of never buying a dog again. I will only save shelter dogs, that is what is important to me.

I admit there was a time when I have paid for a dog from a breeder that was probably a byb. I took a lot of good advice from this site and now I see the error of my past ways. I think the thing for me is that every dog you buy from a breeder there is a perfectly lovely homeless dog in a shelter. That is how I feel, I feel we need to educate everyone so we can no longer have so many homeless animals. I am not pushing it down anyone's throat, that is just my feeling.

[junescrater716]

Pugs are hard to find in a shelter or if we do there is something wrong with it. So, we decided to go to a breeder.

[caseysmom]

I tried to rescue a pug and I had a hard time because we have a pool and pugs drown easily, there are lots in rescue.

My veterinarian advised me against pugs also because it is pretty hot here where I live.

[borzoimom]

Pugs are hard to find in a shelter or if we do there is something wrong with it. So, we decided to go to a breeder.
HONEY- sit... stay... lol... Many of us like certains breeds, and if you want a breed, you have a right to have one... I was devote in shepherds for 20 years, and fell in love with a borzoi the last 19 soon to add a collie because I miss the 3 I had... You have the right to get what you want... YOu have to care for the dog, live with the dog, pamper the dog etc for the dogs lifetime- you should have what you want, and what works for you.... Now- go get that hot chocolate.. I like mine with cinnamon- ... but I am hours from you so maybe I will just have some tea... BTW- as asked before by another pt'r- have you picked out a name yet??? You have a curly- how about mo? ... lol... Or larry... lol... ( come on now smile- admit it-- its funny...) Or since you have a curly how about lazar??? ( straight..)

[junescrater716]

Actually it is going to be Moe I think. lol You're the only one who got that!!! :D

[borzoimom]

Actually it is going to be Moe I think. lol You're the only one who got that!!! :D
Thats because we know each other..... lol... :D

[junescrater716]

coolio!!!!lol

[applesmom]

Good questions borzoimom.

Here are a few more I would have asked. How long have you been breeding; what is your purpose for breeding, how many litters have you had, how do you choose which dogs are breeding quality, what health testing do you do, how do you evaluate the puppies, do you do rescue, will you take the dog back or re-home it if the owner can't keep it, do you insist on limited registration, where are your former brood bitches now, do you go outside for stud service? There are probably a few more, but it's getting late. ;)

[borzoimom]

Good questions borzoimom.

Here are a few more I would have asked. How long have you been breeding; what is your purpose for breeding, how many litters have you had, how do you choose which dogs are breeding quality, what health testing do you do, how do you evaluate the puppies, do you do rescue, will you take the dog back or re-home it if the owner can't keep it, do you insist on limited registration, where are your former brood bitches now, do you go outside for stud service? There are probably a few more, but it's getting late. ;)
Excellent questions, and yes I asked most of those too... (sorry we hi jacked your thread.).. I also ask " for outside stud service do you take puppy back or the stud fee" the response should be, as only breeding to what betters the breed- either- I want a puppy back for so in so reasons * son of the sire etc , or its decided when the pups are born... lol..

[Giselle]

Borzoimom, not trying to be nitpicky, but just wanted to point a few weakpoints in your ideal of a good breeder.

About the whole thing about the breeder not giving a pause when you ask her a question... That's such a subjective aspect. Some people are not phone-talkers. My Peke mentor couldn't care less about phone coversations. She paused periodically and would ask you to repeat questions. It'd be worthy to note that she is a ROM kennel and has produced dozens of champions. For a lie detector, she'd probably fail. However, pausing in a phone conversation means *nothing* about the quality of the breeder and of his/her pups. For all we know, that breeder could have had a list of questions and a typed response for each! I know that for many puppy mills, this is the case.

I was also put off by the breeder's quick response "NONE" and then irritated "Why would you ask that?". To me, that sounds not only defensive but guilty. So do you see how these minute things can have multiple meanings? The fact that she *SAYS* she does (or does not do) certain things doesn't mean she actually does.

It just all seems a bit iffy at the moment =/ As well, you should have asked her why she only offers a one year contract. Crafty Pug breeders know that congenital defects can often pop up after the first year, such as luxating patellas, PRA, HD, nerve degeneration, etc. I'm still not impressed with this breeder, personally. While not everyone can take beautiful pictures, the dam's head seems leaves much to be desired (purely from the pictures on the site).

[borzoimom]

True- but I am looking for deception. Its a old government management trick I learned. .. Also like if you pause- someone will be compelled to fill in the silence- usually saying more than you would have asked.
I could not possible put all we talked about- but I hit the main frame.

[applesmom]

The trouble with that is the for-profit breeders know exactly what the public wants to hear. They've repeated their mantra so often that they know it by heart and can give their spiel without ever having to stop and draw a breath. They're also masters of preying on emotions!

My opinion on BYB such as this and puppy mills is that they don't breed to standard and it doesn't bother them in the least that millions of unwanted dogs are being put to death every year. They all consider their dogs to be special. If they'd all just stop breeding for even two years and insist on spay/neuter contracts the problem would be solved!

I met someone a couple of years ago that was breeding a miniature breed. It didn't matter to her that their bite was off a little or the sire was cryptorchid. They were such sweet dogs. She didn't think she was a BYB because she raised her dogs in the house and made sure they were well socialized, wormed and had all their shots! She was absolutely convinced that her dogs didn't need health testing as they were completely healthy otherwise.

Naturally we got off on the wrong foot when I insisted that what she was doing was wrong. The next two litters were nightmares. Some of the pups were born blind, others had bites so bad they couldn't even nurse and some were cryptorchid and others monorchid. At that point she realized I was right and had all of her dogs speutered. Now she's the one that's discouraging pet breeding and recommending that anyone that insists on breeding breed to the standard and also insisting on health testing for all dogs that are to be bred. :eek:

[borzoimom]

I hear what you are saying applesmom, but I think we also need to add the difference from a "hobby breeder", and a " backyard" breeder. A " hobby " breeder is one that does the genetic testings on their dogs also, may not be actively showing, but dedicated to their breed, and breeding only good representatives of the breed.
The " typical backyard " breeder- is one that well I have a male and female cocker spaniel- what the heck- we could have puppies ... There is no attempt in either good parents of the pups, or an attempt to get good representatives of the breed. Shelties are a perfect example of this. Shelties can easily be too big- not the smaller ones seen in shows, but more of a working sheltie. Size aside- at least some try to make the dogs healthy- others do not-
Now posing question at you ( I already know my answer..) BUT- IF there is a person, with two shelties, both too big out of standard, but checked the hips, hearts, thyroids, - and breeds them- does this still fall under as a "backyard " breeder, or now 'upgraded' to a hobby breeder?

[applesmom]

Now posing question at you ( I already know my answer..) BUT- IF there is a person, with two shelties, both too big out of standard, but checked the hips, hearts, thyroids, - and breeds them- does this still fall under as a "backyard " breeder, or now 'upgraded' to a hobby breeder?

My opinion would be that neither one of them legitimately has the best interests of the breed at heart and neither one of them should be breeding at all! They're both unethical BYB!

The entire outlook on the ethical breeding of purebred dogs is changing. The majority of purebreds were originally developed for a purpose and were only sold or placed with those who would could appreciate all the effort, time, money and record keeping that went into developing that breed.

With the increasing demand for purebreds and the current attitude in breeding; if this keeps up it won't be much longer until it will be difficult to find a good example of many breeds anywhere.

One good example is the Maltese! Their popularity made them a prime money maker for puppy mills and pet shop sales and now the internet is overrun with ads for Maltese breeders.. The problems within this breed are horrendous! Proof of this disaster can be found by reading the Maltese Only forum that's literally filled with horror stories of beloved pets suffering from horrible inherited defects or turning out to be mixed breeds. Mixed breeds that were sold as purebreds for tremendous prices and represented to be purebred by supposedly "ethical" breeders.

I don't have the answer; but I am convinced that even with meticulous health testing; if a breeder isn't breeding according to standard and also to maintain the purpose that the breed was originally developed for; they have no business breeding, period!

The responsibility also lies with the purchasers of these puppies. They're not only encouraging unethical breeding practices; they're also contributing to the downfall of the breed. If there were no gullible buyers; there would be no careless or unethical breeders!

[borzoimom]

I agree- but you know as well as I do, alot of agility shelties are over sized.. ( no I am not talking about anyones shelties.. just making a point...) And the people should not have bred them that size...

[applesmom]

I'm not familiar with the height differences in Shelties. How many inches in height are we talking about?

The current trend in the majority of larger breeds seems to be an overall increase in height and weight. I've often wondered if it may have something to do with the constantly improving changes in diet over the years since the breeds were developed.

When the older breeds were being developed, it was taken for granted that nursing bitches would be thin which often led to improper nourishment for the puppies. Nowadays breeders are so much more aware and they see to it that the bitch is well nourished, provided with the proper vitamins and that all pups have equal time at the milk bar. When they're weaned they're fed good quality puppy chow, not left to scrounge for leftover table scraps.

Dietary improvements through the years have most certainly had the same effect on humans so maybe it's time to rethink the height standards in some breeds!

[borzoimom]

Good point about diet- could be.. The standard for a sheltie says The Shetland Sheepdog should stand between 13 and 16 inches at the shoulder. Note: Height is determined by a line perpendicular to the ground from the top of the shoulder blades, the dog standing naturally, with forelegs parallel to line of measurement.

Disqualifications-- Heights below or above the desired size range are to be disqualified from the show ring.


Most of the shelties in agility are over 16 inch... hmmm.. The last show I saw on tv ( sorry can not travel right now) but the bulk of the shelties were in the 16" higher classes... Co-incidence- maybe... I wonder how big Aslan is- let me go to the other place and ask her...
*** And please note- I am just using the sheltie as an example. ***

[applesmom]

GSP's are 21 to 23 for bitches and 23 to 25 for dogs. It's rare to see a 25 inch dog in the ring nowadays. Most of the bitches are 24 or 25 now.

There is no height disqualification but they should be penalized. Howdy was a good 27 inches and it didn't slow him down a bit. :)

[borzoimom]

Well its like my breed- the standard says at least, then says males are usually. Shoot- what they state- that would be considered a small borzoi, but the standard says " at least height so in so..)

[bckrazy]

All I wanted to make sure if that June recieved proof of the parents being cleared for all genetic health problems. Even if the parents are a wreck conformationally, the worst thing possible would her little puppy ending up with a painful health problem because of poor breeding. Of course I would never buy from a breeder who didn't show/work/health test completely, and of course I do not feel anyone else should.

I didn't quite understand... are the parents certified or are they not?

And, I apologize for judging, but I am vehemently against BYB's and I just wanted to encourage her to look for a reputable breeder & make sure she wasn't being tricked.

I talked to an Aussie breeder when I was looking into Aussies about a year ago. She was awesome at talking on the phone, she had her story straight completely, she sounded like a very reputable breeder & claimed that her dogs were all "healthy" and "tested" & that she loved the breed and bred for hobby, and went to shows when she could. Then, while talking to some one from Aussie rescue, they brought up that she's a notorious BYB that produces a large amount of the double merle pups being dumped in area shelters. She has talked to many many people I'm sure, so she had her story down really well and she could've tricked me if I didn't demand proof of health certs & showing.

Anyway, evaluating that she's a lover of the breed and just has two "nice" dogs, but cannot be bothered to put in the effort to prove them conformationally or with health certs, I would classify her as a BYB. NICE people can still be BYB's, and can STILL be harming the breed.

Im sorry about saying "the board" is apathetic. I was referring to how it seems like some newer members encourage buying a puppy, regardless of the breeder.

[Shelteez2]

I agree- but you know as well as I do, alot of agility shelties are over sized.. ( no I am not talking about anyones shelties.. just making a point...) And the people should not have bred them that size...


You are right there are many over sized shelties out there. Under sized ones too. Shelties are still a relatively new breed (in the grande scheme of things.... compared to say a labrador retriever) so they don't always breed true to type. Size is something many many good sheltie breeders struggle with.

I have two shelties. My female is from what I consider a byb. I didn't know better at the time. The breeder told us she wanted to get into breeding shelties. She had her female and used an outside stud. The dogs and pups were registered and the pups were sold on a spay/neuter contract.
I consider her a byb because the dogs weren't health tested and they were pet quality. The dam was in size, I don't know about the stud dog. My girl is 17" tall.

My male sheltie is from a very good breeder. She tests her breeding dogs and shows them in conformation. Pets are sold on spay/neuter contracts. My boys parents were both in size. The dam was 15" and the sire about 15.5". My boy is over sized. He is 18" tall. That's why I have him actually. The breeder was keeping him to show, but he went over size so he was sold as a pet. This leads to your other scenario

IF there is a person, with two shelties, both too big out of standard, but checked the hips, hearts, thyroids, - and breeds them- does this still fall under as a "backyard " breeder, or now 'upgraded' to a hobby breeder?

I would clasify them as a byb. They are not trying to improve the breed as size is such an issue in the breed to begin with.

[wolfsoul]

I know alot of breeders that are far from reputable but can certainly make themselves seem responsible. People have to remember that unless you know the person, the person's dogs, the dog's lines, and the dogs they've produced -- they know nothing. Health testing and working/showing is only part of the picture.

A dog in itself is a dog -- what the dog PRODUCES on the other hand, is of more importance. I've seen healthy dogs produce bad health, I've seen well-tempered dogs produce poor temperaments, I've seen beautiful dogs produce poorly conformed dogs....Often times, the dog's references don't mean a heck of alot. Give me a groenendael pedigree and I can point out to you which dogs produced epilepsy, which dogs produced hip dysplasia, which dogs produced cataracts, and were all healthy themselves. I didn't realise, until I got into breeding, that a dog's pedigree is more than just a list of achievements and titles behind your dog. It needs to be researched. Now I can look back in my pedigree and tell you which dogs had health problems, which dogs produced health problems, which dogs were not perfect temperamentally, and which dogs were not perfect conformationally -- THERE IS NO SUCH THING as a perfect pedigree. Every line has something in it's background. And if someone asks me what health problems lie behind my dogs' pedigrees, I will tell them. The goal is to produce something better.

As far as size, my friend has been breeding shelties for show her entire life. Sometimes big shelties happen. She had once bred a male out of a 14 inch female and a 13 inch male -- the pup turned into a whopping 20 inch sheltie. Her last litter was out of a 14 inch male and a female just over 14 -- Out of five pups (now 10 months old) she has one 13 inch male, 2 females just under 14, male just over 15, and a male that is now at 16 inches and will go oversize. My co-breeder's dog, Jasper, is 27.5 inches, out of Jake, a 25.5 inch male, and Annie, a 24 inch female, both out of average sized lines. The other pups were all average sized. A badly conformed dog is not the sign of a bad breeder -- Visa is one beautiful girl and has produced one beautiful pup, but I imagine she will have some poor looking pups in the future -- her siblings were not nearly as nice as she. Just the way things work.

Not only that, but sometiems there are pretty dogs that shouldn't be bred, and "ugly" dogs that should. Jag is not perfect conformationally by any means, but she will likely still be bred for temperament reasons. She is square and she has a typey head. Bred to a dog that can strengthen her conformation weaknesses, she can still have beautiful pups that have a good temperament to match.

Things are not always what they seem -- don't just jump at the opportunity to get a dog from a breeder who health certifies, works, and shows. It isn't that simple, though it should be. There are plenty of other things that determine a good breeder, and you need to ask other breeders and people who know the breeder in order to really know what the breeder is all about. Meeting past offspring is also a big help. I never ever trust the breeder first.

Just my two cents..

[applesmom]

Great post Wolfsoul!

A dog might look great (or not so great) in photo's but nothing beats a good hands-on evaluation! ;)

[agilityk9trainer]

I agree- but you know as well as I do, alot of agility shelties are over sized.. ( no I am not talking about anyones shelties.. just making a point...) And the people should not have bred them that size...

Actually, you see more undersized agility shelties than oversized ones. As has already been posted, you can get an undersized sheltie pup and an oversized sheltie pup in the same litter. It's the reason being undersized or oversized will lead to dismisal in the show ring. They are trying to get the breed more standardized in size.

However, many agility enthusiasts prefer the smaller sheltie. In AKC, the 12" jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 10" to 14". Many sheltie agility folks want to jump in the 12: height, and get a pup that they know will be small. The 16" inch jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 14" to 18".

You asked how big Aslan, my MACH sheltie, is. He's undersized at 12.38". However, my color-headed white, Jericho, is oversized at 16.5". Both had parents that were well within the standard for size.

I don't know any breeders who intentionally breed for large agility shelties, although I could see a demand for small agility shelties. They are very popular.

[borzoimom]

Actually, you see more undersized agility shelties than oversized ones. As has already been posted, you can get an undersized sheltie pup and an oversized sheltie pup in the same litter. It's the reason being undersized or oversized will lead to dismisal in the show ring. They are trying to get the breed more standardized in size.

However, many agility enthusiasts prefer the smaller sheltie. In AKC, the 12" jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 10" to 14". Many sheltie agility folks want to jump in the 12: height, and get a pup that they know will be small. The 16" inch jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 14" to 18".

You asked how big Aslan, my MACH sheltie, is. He's undersized at 12.38". However, my color-headed white, Jericho, is oversized at 16.5". Both had parents that were well within the standard for size.

I don't know any breeders who intentionally breed for large agility shelties, although I could see a demand for small agility shelties. They are very popular.
OH MY STARS!! WELCOME AGILITYK9TRAINER!!!! OH PT'Rs she has the most amazing agility shelties- WELCOME WELCOME!!
That is amazing you see the opposite of smaller shelties verses larger ones. You attend alot more agility trails that I do, and your observation would be more the norm than the my observations would be in this area. Also, the flyball competitions they just broadcasted had some awfully big shelties. Do you find flyball teams using bigger shelties or smaller ones?

[agilityk9trainer]

OH MY STARS!! WELCOME AGILITYK9TRAINER!!!! OH PT'Rs she has the most amazing agility shelties- WELCOME WELCOME!!
That is amazing you see the opposite of smaller shelties verses larger ones. You attend alot more agility trails that I do, and your observation would be more the norm than the my observations would be in this area. Also, the flyball competitions they just broadcasted had some awfully big shelties. Do you find flyball teams using bigger shelties or smaller ones?

We don't have much flyball in my area of the country. As far as I know, there are no shelties on the teams we do have. I have had some people ask me to have Aslan join their teams, as they love to have the fast, small dogs on their teams. The small dogs set the jump heights, so having a small dog on your team means the jump heights for the entire team are lower. Right now, I have no interest in flyball, although I encourage my students who do it to continue in the sport. I can see why it's a big draw for many dog owners.

[borzoimom]

Good point about the jump height with a smaller team member. ! ;)

[wolfsoul]

Welcome agilityk9trainer! My best friend breeds shelties. :) She just had a litter early this year.

These are her dogs' pics, attached..
The blue merle is Can Ch ptd JewelsGlow's Absolute No-No, "Taboo," taken when she was 2 years old. The tri is Sirona's Right on Target, "Arwyn," when she was 5 months. The sable is Jo-Ro's Just in Time AgMX MADC, "Justin." Taboo just finished her agility and obedience lessons and will be competing next year as well as finishing her CH (just two more points!). Arwyn is going to start her show career next year. Justin is almost completely deaf now but he only needs one more leg before he has his ATChC, so Kelly is going to try him one more time before he retires.

She also has a little sheltie that was given to her years ago -- her name is Rosie, and she's maybe 5 pounds. I'll see if I can dig up a pic of her too.

[wolfsoul]

Here's Rosie, and a couple more pics of the others..Arwyn was just a baby (she's 10 months now) and the other puppy with Taboo is Arwyn's brother, Leader. He's going to go oversize, he's already a quarter of an inch away from 16 inches at ten months.

[mr.chiwawa]

I am with Junes the shelters out here by me dont have small dogs and i have even looked as far as VT and i found nothing. I went to a breeder for my own personal reasons but I dont regret a min of it. The women I went to have been doing it for 30 + years. If any of you are intrested in chihuahuas i do have there site. But I will only give it out to serious lookers.I WONT put it up just so some of you glorified shelter savers will find something wrong and critize her.
merry christmas
and chi hugs

[borzoimom]

IN agility. I can think of no other better.!! She came from the same place alot of us did, but she is a pro- competes all the time with OUTSTANDING scores. .. I do so hope she stays- she would be valuable to this site for sure!

[Giselle]

I am with Junes the shelters out here by me dont have small dogs and i have even looked as far as VT and i found nothing. I went to a breeder for my own personal reasons but I dont regret a min of it. The women I went to have been doing it for 30 + years. If any of you are intrested in chihuahuas i do have there site. But I will only give it out to serious lookers.I WONT put it up just so some of you glorified shelter savers will find something wrong and critize her.
merry christmas
and chi hugs
I volunteer at a city shelter (commonly referred to as the "pound" - where the most neglected dogs end up), and we have three small dogs that have been languishing in their 4'X6' kennels for three weeks. Two are terrier/chi mixes. The other is a Cocker Spaniel/Poodle mix. If you wait and search deeply, you will find a plethora of available dogs. If not, there are always people who are willing to drive a certain ways to meet you. :)

Secondly, experience breeding animals means nothing, nada, zilch, zip. A breeder could have been breeding for 50 years, but if she isn't breeding to better the breed (via genetic testing, proving in the ring or field, etc), she's a BYB in my book.

And lastly, we are not "glorified shelter savers". We are people who love dogs. We just don't want dogs to needlessly die.

[mr.chiwawa]

I volunteer at a city shelter (commonly referred to as the "pound" - where the most neglected dogs end up), and we have three small dogs that have been languishing in their 4'X6' kennels for three weeks. Two are terrier/chi mixes. The other is a Cocker Spaniel/Poodle mix. If you wait and search deeply, you will find a plethora of available dogs. If not, there are always people who are willing to drive a certain ways to meet you. :)

Secondly, experience breeding animals means nothing, nada, zilch, zip. A breeder could have been breeding for 50 years, but if she isn't breeding to better the breed (via genetic testing, proving in the ring or field, etc), she's a BYB in my book.

And lastly, we are not "glorified shelter savers". We are people who love dogs. We just don't want dogs to needlessly die.
WLL IM NOT GOING TO DIRVE ACROSS COUNRTY FOR A CHI MIX I WANTED A PURE BREED HES GOING TO SHOWS AND SUCH AND LAST I CHECKED YOU CANT HAVE MUTTS IN AN AKC SHOW. AND THATS THE EXACT REASON I WILL NEVER POST HER WEBSITE ON HERE PEOPLE ASUME THINGS ABOUT A BREEDER AND THE PERSON WHO BOUGHT FROM A BREEDER BEFORE GETTING TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THEM. :confused: :rolleyes:

[borzoimom]

The purpose of the AKC is for the love of the pure bred dog... etc. The fact is, like my breed on number of registrations, the Borzoi is at 94 with 696 dogs registered2005 ( 2006 is not posted yet obviously), falling from the previous year 2004 of ranking number 89 with 795 dogs registered.
I am obviously in love with the breed. Its perfect for us, even the reason to wait on a list with the rescue when we got Femka. ( flying her in from Boston. Prior to that she was in the Netherlands ..)
The fact is, we have the right to have the breed that fits us- our life style, our household situation. There is no such thing as " just a dog". The breeds are different in how they approach life, how they interact with family etc. Its what works and waiting lists or not, we each love our breeds to wait for what we want, and what works in our household. To be honest- most of the breeds would make me crazy if I had to live with them. I want quiet, calm, elegance and coat. Even within the sighthounds the breeds are slightly different. I watch my 4- and they are obviously all like minded. Slightly different in approach to things- but bascially every one of them is " on the same page" here.
With the few exceptions of having one breed outside of what I have, I have noticed that having all one breed, when you add a different one, it changes the dynamics of the house. Its just easier to have all the same. At least for us. I am devoted to my dogs, and to the breed. And with the exception of the Silken Windhound later in life, when I get too old for these larger Borzois, even then- they are similar enough. I still can not imagine my life without a Borzoi in it.. I just do not see it.
Am I missing anything? Yes- I miss competing in obedience. I am adding a collie but with enough time to see that he would fit in with 4 Borzois. He has enough spunk to be a good candiate, but calm enough to not tip the applecart here. Believe it or not- it look longer to make the decission to take a different breed into the house, than it did for adding Zubin or Galina. Having the same breed to me is like Pringles pototoe chips- they all fit together. Verses a bag of different sizes. Stupid analogy yes at first glance- but that is how I have chosen to live my life.

[borzoimom]

Some of us have a special love for one breed. Others do not, but the ones that do not, can not see the fascination and devototion we have with " our breed"...

[TFTpwnsYou]

I totally agree with that statement. Some people just fall in loooove with a certain breed and only that breed will do. I being one of those people....lol.

[applesmom]

There are many different types of pet owners. For the majority, breed doesn't matter as long as the temperament and size fit in with the family.

For many others, their pets (and their breed of choice) actually define their lifestyle, as ours did for almost 30 years. Our lives revolved around dog club meetings, training sessions, dog show, hunt test and field trial schedules.

Our social life ranged from formal parent club and AKC banquets in luxury hotels to waking up in a travel trailer on frosty mornings to the excited barking of hundreds of dogs. During those times our "banquets" were shared meals around glowing campfires. These memorable moments took place amid some of the most beautiful sunrises and scenery in many of the most primitive places in the country.

Our pets provided us with plenty of diversity and every day was a new adventure! We couldn't have done it without purebred dogs and ethical breeders!

[agilityk9trainer]

Wolfsoul,

Beautiful shelties! Thanks for posting the pics. Glad to see your friend is active not only in conformation, but in performance as well. I loved the registered names matched with their call names! Very creative.

Borzoimom, thanks for the kind words.

As far as pure breed vs. mixed - this does depend on what you want to do with your dog. I want to show in agility in the AKC. I must have a pure bred. In addition, getting a pup from a known breeder of performance lines will GREATLY enhance that dog's chance of success in agility. As many of us live in areas where we are limited to the number of dogs we can own (I can only have four in my city), I need to be sure that the dogs I get can handle the stress of performance, And, for dogs who don't have the emotional constitution to handle the stress, showing becomes almost abusive. My two shelties come from a performance breeder. They were bred to be high-drive, working dogs who can handle the stresses of competition. And, they LOVE it. My rescued American Eskimo, on the other hand, loves agility but HATES to compete. The stress of the show ring is too much for her. She was bred by a BYB.

Now, I'm limited to only one more dog. I plan on getting that puppy in about 18 months. As a professional agility instructor, I am, fairly or unfairly, judged by my dogs' performance in the ring. I really need a good working dog, and my best bet to find that dog is to go back to my performance breeder.

Of course, I'm not saying all rescues are bad agility dogs. I know tons of great agility rescues. But, I know just as many rescues that couldn't handle the stress. I'm just saying your chances of getting a good performance dog from a performance breeder are better than your chances of getting a good performance dog from rescue.

However, were I not showing, you can bet all my dogs would be rescues!!

[borzoimom]

Well- I would still have Borzois. And I want sound genetics so probably still back to a breeder. However- with Femka- we took her. If not showing, they would probably still be show quality dogs. But its hard to say for sure- I haven't crossed that bridge yet.
My real guess is my next Borzoi will be Galinas son or daughter. ( I keep saying "or"... lol verses "and"..)

[cassiesmom]

I agree with the very first post that this could be its own thread. Maybe put it in General so the cat people can read it too, because some of the questions could be about purebred cats. There is a pet store one suburb over from where I work that has purebred puppies in cages. It just breaks my heart to see them like that. Which is why I go to petsmart, because the cats waiting for adoption are not at risk of euthanasia and the petsmart I shop at has a clipboard with a list of local shelter information for people wanting to adopt a shelter dog. Thanks ... elyse

[applesmom]

Quote from new Junescrater in puppy thread. "The breeder we went to lived on a farm and had at least 30 pugs. They were sooo cute!!! She had geese, peacocks, cows, cats, roosters, hens, chickens, and a REALLY big dog. She has a horse too. The pugs were all well taken care of and happy looking. She had two bins which held at least 10, three-week-old pugs. There were two bins and they both had baby pugs in them. They were the cutest things I had ever seen!!! "

Quote from borzoimom in new puppy thread: "Breeders can have many dogs- and 3 litters- come on now- these are pugs- they would not have max 3 pups per litter- and usually that its 2 or even one."

This individual had at least one litter of eight week old pups for sale and at least 10 more 3 week old puppies in a batch waiting on the sidelines. Do the math! If litter size for pugs is only 2 or three--how many litters does this "breeder" actually have on the ground? How many have already been sold and how many more litters are already in the oven?

As stated in an earlier post on the new puppy thread; filth and neglect isn't the only criteria that should be used to designate a breeder as a puppy mill!

There has been no mention of health guarantees, replacement policies, spay/neuter agreements, take back policies, etc. What makes this "breeder" any different than a puppy mill breeder other than the fact that at the time of the visit, the dogs "appeared" to be well cared for?

The concerns aren't about one family purchasing one puppy from a for-profit breeder. As long as these types of mass production "breeders" are encouraged, there will never be an end to the pet overpopulation problem!

[junescrater716]

Sorry but CORRECTION!!!
Ollie came with a one year health guarantee. If he gets sick from any genetic health diseases then we will get a full refund and we will give the puppy back. If we want to give the puppy back within the first year we can because of the one year guarentee.

[borzoimom]

Junes- I do not think this is directed at you, but a thread to educate people that may not know what to look for. Having alot of dogs doesnt indicate the dedication to a breed- you just have more in your heart for a breed. Truth be told- I would have more than 4 borzois- without even thinking about it- without a blink...

[applesmom]

Sorry but CORRECTION!!!
Ollie came with a one year health guarantee. If he gets sick from any genetic health diseases then we will get a full refund and we will give the puppy back. If we want to give the puppy back within the first year we can because of the one year guarentee.

That's great! But let's try to keep this from being a personal discussion about any one particular dog and stick to the topic of breeder ethics.

What owner who's had a puppy for even one day would even consider sending it back for any health related reason, knowing that it would be put down if they did?

More and more breeders today are offering a replacement puppy for a dog with a genetic illness while allowing the owners to keep the first dog. That way the owners are still in control of its fate and not the breeder.

[wolfsoul]

I really disagree with genetic health guarantees that are so minimal. I offer a five year health guarantee against genetic diseases and a lifetime health guarantee against epilepsy. Most people do not health certify until the dog is over two years of age, as this is when most registries will accept testing -- you are basically being screwed over if the guarantee is two years or under because you can't even do the health testing UNTIL the dog is two.

[wolfsoul]

More and more breeders today are offering a replacement puppy for a dog with a genetic illness while allowing the owners to keep the first dog. That way the owners are still in control of its fate and not the breeder.
That is what I will do if I am ever in the situation where a puppy of mine has a genetic condition. They can opt to keep the dog or not, but it must come back to me if they don't.

[borzoimom]

I offered "guarenteed against genetic defects" with no age limit and " in the event the dog_____ is found to have a genetic defect of the hips, spinal, elbows, or genetic heart,or eye conditions, the buyer has the right to keep the dog, and on presentation of a two veternains report stating the genetic disorder, the buyer is entitled to a replacement puppy. "
"In the event a replacement puppy is not available from the seller,The buyer has the following options- can either accept a puppy from an approved breeder by the seller, or agree to wait until said puppy is available, or receive the purchase price of __________" .
" IN the event the dog purchased _________ dies in adult life, it is the understanding of the buyer to contact the seller as to the date of death, and cause of death. If the dog purchased is suspected of having the listed genetic disorders, a written statement by a practicing licensed veternarian may be requested by the seller. "