Accidental breeding

[wolfsoul]

Uh oooh. Looks like Isis (Visa's grandmother) went through a silent heat. Nobody knew until they found her...and Loki...tied.

Isis is 12 years old, so it's a bit worrisome. It isn't likely that the breeding took, based on her age alone. She's an old gal, she'll be gone very soon.

But boy would it be ironic if it did take. Spirit (Visa's mother)'s last two breedings didn't take, Visa has ONE puppy, and then the 12 year old dog gets knocked up with a whole litter of pups. :rolleyes:

She'll have to go to the vet so they can weigh the options. Belgians are sensitive to anesthetic so Marla isn't comfortable with an abortion, but if the pregnancy is a bigger risk than it will have to be done. If the puppies are born, they will be NICE puppies. I have no doubt in my mind that these would be some wonderful pups. It's a shame Isis never was bred more than once -- she comes from dying lines, she's a rarity in herself. Same reason so many people are interested in Visa. But the problem with Isis being bred is that she is co-owned, and was given to Marla under the condition of a puppy back. Only thing is, this breeder had some major hoarding issues last time she bred Belgians and Marla is afraid to give her a pup -- that's why she never bred her more than once. So if there are puppies, then what? Forage the lady's signature on the papers? :eek: This whole situation is unfortunate. I don't think the breeding will take though..

Isis and Loki attached..

[molucass]

That would be ironic if she's actually pregnant..

I hope for the sake of the dog, and the situation with the co-ownership thing that she isn't.. Both her and Loki are beautiful dogs. :)

[crow_noir]

Praying the best for you and Isis!!

[Sevaede]

I hope it didn't take (for health reasons). :) If it did, I hope everything turns out all right. I feel like you are MORE than capable of taking care of a few more pups! :p

[vinjashira]

So if there are puppies, then what? Forage the lady's signature on the papers? :eek:
now how would Marla feel if someone forged her signature or how would you feel if someone forged yours Jordan?
besides, I don't think you will be able to register the puppies anyway. I mean here in the UK you can not register the puppies if a bitch is bred when she is over 8 years old unless you have a special permission from the Kennel Club (e.g a dying breed or something) and I suspect it will be a similar rule in Canada.

[cloverfdx]

It is a shame she was not spayed after she was done breeding :(. I hope Isis will be ok.

[borzoimom]

There use to be a shot your vet can give to abort the litter. But I think we are passed that time frame now, and thats if they still have it.
Man- 12 years old. I know you are in conversation with your vet about making plans just in case. I know a Belgium is sensitve to anethesia, but I would think having a litter with a 12 year old would be more of a stress. Maybe they can do a C section when its time.
I am not sure.. You know her health better than any of us.

[pitc9]

Oh no!! The poor thing!!
I hope it didn't take for Isis' sake.

[lute]

oh boy! hopefully the breeding did not take. with all the energy and stress it takes for the bitch to carry and have the litter it can't be more dangerous to have the pups aborted. even if anethesia is hard on belgains it would be easier in the long run i would think. AND, if the co-owner would be an unsuitable home that's just another reason to abort.

tough choice to make. keep us updated.

[luvofallhorses]

the poor girl! :( I really hope she isn't pregnant! :( :( :(

[wolfsoul]

now how would Marla feel if someone forged her signature or how would you feel if someone forged yours Jordan?
besides, I don't think you will be able to register the puppies anyway. I mean here in the UK you can not register the puppies if a bitch is bred when she is over 8 years old unless you have a special permission from the Kennel Club (e.g a dying breed or something) and I suspect it will be a similar rule in Canada.
I know, I am not comfortable with it either, but it could possibly save a puppy's life...If you want to read more about what happened when this lady owned Belgians, read Huck's Story (http://www.mindspring.com/%7Eskyhighbel/huck.htm) . the litter can be registered as long as the vet determines the pregnancy is indeed from that dog.

There was no way she could have bee spayed right away -- This happened on Saturday, and the vet was closed on both Saturday and Sunday for Rememberance Day and only accepted emergency cases. She only does spays on Thursdays. She is the only vet in town that uses the safer anesthetics. Belgians often die under anesthetic, their heart stops. I keep saying that nowadays there are so many good anesthetics but Mar's still worried. Personally I think aborting them is the best option, but, not my dog.

Here's a couple more pics of Isey when she was younger..

[husky_lover]

How sad for Isis. I hope for her sake the breeding didn't take. She just needs to enjoy the rest of her life.

[borzoimom]

Isoflourine is a good one, and there is another new that my vet used on Hottie. Let me find out what it was. They open at 11 today.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

reminds me of the saying "there's life in the old dog yet" I do hope for Isis sake that she is not pregnant

[K9soul]

I think Rhi meant it was a shame she was not spayed after her breeding days were over, not after this particular breeding. I don't really understand why she would not have been spayed when she was 7 or 8 at least? I'm not being critical of you Jordan as I know she is not your dog and you have no control in this area but what a sad situation. I feel bad for Isis and I really hope nothing took.

[Danegirl2208]

oh my..hopeing and praying for the best down here!

[wolfsoul]

Isoflourine is a good one, and there is another new that my vet used on Hottie. Let me find out what it was. They open at 11 today.
Yes, I asked for isoflurane when my rat had his surgery. :) It's good because 99% of it leaves the body when the dog breathes (because it's a gas). I think when everyone hears anesthetic they think of IVs and such. We have people that come into the shop to do teeth and everyone at the shop tells them it's safe for old dogs because it's "aneastethic free" but I think that's silly because older dogs have just as good a chance at making it as younger ones with the kinds of stuff we use today.

I'm not sure why Isis wasn' spayed at 7 or 8, I didn't know Marla back then. Spirit was spayed at 8 with no problems. I definatly plan on spaying Visa when she's done -- as they get older, they have an increased chance of pyometra. Way too scary for me!

[borzoimom]

The isoflourine is safe. I called my vet. The other one we used on Hottie was just to "make him stupid" but it wont be enough for a C section or a spay. She also told me vets know that a herding breed or sighthound especially that they dose for a lighter body weight.

[king2005]

[QUOTE=wolfsoul]
I'm not sure why Isis wasn' spayed at 7 or 8, I didn't know Marla back then. QUOTE]

Could it be part of the contract, since she is co-owned? Because then Marla would have had no choice but to keep her natural.

[cyber-sibes]

I have to admit I'm stunned that she wasn't spayed earlier. Breeders, of all people, should know better. I hope she's gonna be ok.

[GreyhoundGirl]

Hopping for the best !

:( Poor Isis.

[chocolatepuppy]

So sad. :( I hope Isis isn't pregnant.

[wolfsoul]

I asked Marla why Isis wasn't spayed -- it was a stipulation of the contract to keep her open until another litter was born. By the time she and Isis' owner were no longer in contact, Isis was already nearing her senior years. She left her at the vet to get her teeth cleaned and have her spayed, but the vet didn't spay her -- said that it was too risky to put an older Belgian under anestethic (this was like 4 or 5 years ago, different vet). The vet said she would go through menopause (which doesn't even exist in dogs, so we find) and would stop her heat cycles etc anyways. She did stop her cycle eventually, strangely enough.

It's so strange-- she is acting completey normal -- Loki is acting completely normal, Jasper is acting completely normal. She's gone back to beating the tar out of Loki and he's gone back to ignoring her. She isn't swollen, she isn't bleeding. If they hadn't have been found tied, nobody would have known she was in heat. She hasn't been in heat for a long time.

[crow_noir]

I know this is a family forum, but the nature of this makes me wonder...

Even spayed wolves in captivity have been known to engage in that activity just because they want to during mating season.

I wonder if perhaps Isis and Loki were just ... umm... In the mood?


I asked Marla why Isis wasn't spayed -- it was a stipulation of the contract to keep her open until another litter was born. By the time she and Isis' owner were no longer in contact, Isis was already nearing her senior years. She left her at the vet to get her teeth cleaned and have her spayed, but the vet didn't spay her -- said that it was too risky to put an older Belgian under anestethic (this was like 4 or 5 years ago, different vet). The vet said she would go through menopause (which doesn't even exist in dogs, so we find) and would stop her heat cycles etc anyways. She did stop her cycle eventually, strangely enough.

It's so strange-- she is acting completey normal -- Loki is acting completely normal, Jasper is acting completely normal. She's gone back to beating the tar out of Loki and he's gone back to ignoring her. She isn't swollen, she isn't bleeding. If they hadn't have been found tied, nobody would have known she was in heat. She hasn't been in heat for a long time.

[wolfsoul]

I wondered the same thing, actually! It's very out of character for them, as Isis hates Loki's guts, and her back legs are bad (her breeder kept her in a crate for 5 months as a pup, messed up her back legs) so she doesn't stand much, but it is strange for her to be in heat suddenly, and with no sign of it. No blood, no swelling. Since the incedent there have been no advances from either one of them. All of the other dogs are acting normal. Although, the females in the household DO come into heat at the same time, and Jag and Jazz were both set for late October (both still haven't come in though). Guess we'll never know. :eek:

[borzoimom]

hmmmmmmm good point crow noir. I only heard about that happening one time in my life- but yes- the female was tied although spayed from a younger male that got "creative" and misunderstood a slight anal gland infection made her smell like to him as being in season..
They can tell if she was spayed by a ultrasound..

[finn's mom]

I hope she isn't pregnant, that would be sad for her, poor ol' lady. And, it's strange to me that a vet would not anesthetize for a teeth cleaning. If the reason they wouldn't spay was because she was too old to go under, but she was getting her teeth cleaned anyway...ah, well, either way. I hope Isis is all right!

[wolfsoul]

They didn't use anaesthetic -- we have some people that come to the shop that clean teeth that don't use anaestethic either, even for extractions. :) The dogs and cats are surprisingly good. They just use herbal spray to relax them.