Downright rude threads!

[cyber-sibes]

:mad: What's with the total lack of sensitivity and good manners lately? Are some PT members so bored and disappointed with their own lives they want to spread their misery around by being rude & thoughtless towards other PTers? I just read through two more threads that turned argumentative and nasty. One was directed at a relative newcomer because the post was "in the wrong place". Come on, is that such an offense that it warrants a snippy reply?

I get annoyed at how often people cross the line towards someone, often the poster, and threads turn nasty. My solution is to not read it anymore, but I am concerned that this lack of decency by a few will drive people away who could be a wonderful part of this group. I grew up with "If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all", and it's still darn good advice. Being coarse, insulting, insinuating, and superior says more about the person posting than anyone else. What do they think it shows, that they are clever? smarter than the other guy? Cooler? It shows just how little, mean-spirited, and shallow they are. The rash of tit-for-tat one-liners that follow just add fuel to the fire. In the end, no one benefits.

No point to this post, I know I'm not the only one here who feels this way. But I refuse to post this on any of those threads, because I'd rather they just die out asap. Thanks for letting me rant about it here.

[angelbow20]

I agree 100% with you!!! Im almost afraid to put a thread up to tell you the truth im afraid certain people are going to go off on me or something. I dont feel anyone should say anything rude in anyway, people post things for answers not or to say what they believe not to be yelled at or anything.

[JenBKR]

Thank you for posting this. It has also been bothering me. I just don't understand the total disrespect for other people. I know the threads you are talking about, and I just don't understand how people get SO rude. Hopefully posters will read this and decide to change their ways.

[Argranade]

Yes it should stop,PT has a rude side but we don't want new commers too see this because PT is a great loving site right? and we want to be able to have new members join with out being scared to post or complain about this site.

Sometimes we need to let it all out but somtimes im sure we can hold it in.

[iamgobsmacked]

I was raised to believe that when someone insults you without merit, smile and thank them for bringing your shortcomings to your attention. When someone is outright rude, ignore them, without food they cannot continue. Even miserable people cannot get satisfaction by trying to bring you down to their level if you refuse to fall for it. Ignoring someone who is rude is the best punishment of all.

There is a saying, "If you want to prove you are intelligent, think of something nasty or stupid to say. "Then don't say it."

All his spirit is what a foolish man lets out. The wise man has his spirit under control.

[moosmom]

AMEN Cyber-sibes!!!

I have always given people the benefit of the doubt. I have also tried to treat people the way I would like to be treated, with respect. I have seen SO much disrespect and rudeness towards certain PTers on this board by others, who have not yet experienced all that life has to offer, if you know what I'm talking about. It makes me ill. If my daughter EVER spoke to any elder the way certain members speak to us, the OLDER generation, she'd have been grounded.

I also realize that everyone has their good and bad days, God only knows I'm guilty as well. But some members just seem to be rude and disrespectful ALL THE TIME!! It saddens me.

And you're right, it's so petty, some of the stuff being argued about. Don't apologize for ranting here. That's what we're here for, to listen and learn. I only wish some members would do just that, LISTEN AND LEARN!

JMO.

[CathyBogart]

Hey, I know I've had my days, particularly in the last two months, so if I've offended anyone I'm sorry! I try to re-read all of my posts before they go up, but sometimes I just don't catch myself.

[JenBKR]

Hey, I know I've had my days, particularly in the last two months, so if I've offended anyone I'm sorry! I try to re-read all of my posts before they go up, but sometimes I just don't catch myself.

I think we all do that - it's human nature! Everyone has a bad day, or moment, or post, but some people seem to be constant about it. I'm *pretty* sure I know the offenders, and it's not you, so don't worry! :)

[sasvermont]

I get so anoyed with rude posts. I don't know the ages of these folks doing the nasty posting, but I suspect the ages are all over the place, not just young or old.

Maybe these people don't have a good command of the English language and resort to obnoxious, ill-bred methods of communication.

I will confess to a few short comments, since being here for a few years....but in general, I would like to believe I have given many an honest and colorful response - sometimes direct, but I have not wanted to be hurtful.

I just PM'ed one person, asking why she is being so mean to people. I doubt if I will get a response.

Some folks are just miserable most of the time. I am miserable just a little bit of the time. Most days are happy ones for me and I hope that comes through in my posts!

PT is a wonderful place to spend time and I hope that for the newcomers, topics like this will keep them looking and posting. It is sooooo typical of a forum to have its ups and downs. We have mostly UPS!

(((((((((((((((((Pet Talk))))))))))))))))) :D

[critter crazy]

This is mostly the reason why I dont post very much anymore. The thought of having to deal with rudeness, or just defend myself is rediculous! I try my best to be as nice as I can, And I dont think I have ever been rude to anyone. If I have I greatly appologize. I Dont reply to most threads much either, because people just are too defensive of someoes Opinions. It is very hurtful. I would love to post more, without the fear of being torn apart. Cyber-Sibes you have said everything, that i have been wanting to for a while. I just wish I could say it as well as you have!

[trayi52]

I know exactly what you mean. Had that experience just recently with the last thread I recently put up! It really offended me! Wow! Say something nice for Gods sake!

Willie :)

[sasvermont]

I once had a job where I was dealing with 40 secretaries and paralegals. I was new to the job. I was hired to put out "employment fires" and to convert their antiquated accounting software.

The first meeting I had with the 40 folks was interesting. I handed out forms/ questionnaires, and asked that they fill in honest responses to my questions about how they thought people spent their time on the job and recommendations for improvements. The forms were not to be signed, although names of other employees could be used within the form. I told them that the forms would never be shown to anyone - for my eyes only. I didn't really know anyone, so it was a real eye-opener for me. I was amazed at the comments about fellow employees. I worked there almost 10 years and you know what, most of the comments were accurate. I never showed the forms to anyone. I kept my promise.

So.....maybe Karen would like some confidential emails or Pm's, with everyone's idea about who is doing the most damage here, and who should be called on the carpet.

Just an idea.

[CathyBogart]

I just thought I'd add that I was really nervous about putting up my "wish me luck" thread, but so far I've gotten the nicest responses. :) In general, PT rocks.

[moosmom]

SAS,

Great idea.

[luvofallhorses]

I hear ya. I try not to be rude to anyone and try to be as nice as possible. :) so can't we all please get along ?! this place isn't the same as it used to be. :( I am so sick of the bickering and being rude to others. we are like a family and we should treat each and everyone of our fellow pt'ers with respect. of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I just hope the nastiness stops. :(

[angelbow20]

I feel Everyone should beable to express their own Opinions without people being rude to them, not everyone is the same and some people might not agree with what others agree with but i feel they should never be mean to someone because they believe in something else or dont agree with what someone else does.

[Karen]

I have said this before, and will say it again: If there is a person, or a thread you are thinking of in particular PM ME! I am the moderator let me do my job. I prefer to do so behind the scenes, and in fact have already spoken to the person and the thread to which I know the orginal post is referring.

This is Pet Talk - where everyone should be polite and respectful. We can be respectful even when disagreeing with someone.

I prefer to handle things like rudeness behind the scenes, why, I know at least one person in this thread had gotten a PM from me regarding such in the past.

NEVER post angry. If you are angry, you will say things you should not. If you have an issue with a person, handle it privately, throughe mail or PM, or bring me into it. If a post makes you angry, don;t respond immediately -- take a dog for a walk, go skitch a kitty, do something else calming, then come back and type a response. Or another approach is to type up an angry response, but NOT post it. Email or PM it to youself, then let it sit for a couple hours. If you then reread it, and it seems reasonable, and not rude, THEN post it.

There is no excuse for not minding manners. We cannot all be perfect all of the time, but we can at least try.

What I often remind people is that this is Pet Talk - we are all here because we love pets. That separates us from the rest of humanity, but in a good way, so we should respect each other for that, despite our differences.

[Dorothy39]

As cyber-sibes pointed out, I too was raised with " The Golden Rule" and my Dad told me: "If you can't say something nice, don't say anthing at all"

I suppose I could also add that "family values" were a lot different while I was growing up~ but, I will not excuse anyone who berates another Pet Talk Member with snide remarks, nor, will I post on a thread that appears to be getting out of hand. (unless to say, "Take 5", of course)

There are incidents that have really made me feel so bad for the other guy~ and so~ I just avoid reading such threads altogether~ :(


This forum is absolutley Wonderful and I know I couldn't go through a day without it.
I just wish that some people would simply bite their tongues ( or chew their nails) or just "ask": This is what I think you said

I'm glad Cyber-sibes created this thread, I was too chicken to do it!! ;)

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Believe it or not, I remember what it was like to be a "newbie" here. I was not only new to Pet Talk, but to the entire Internet thing. I was terrified of "chat" rooms and stuff because of all the bad stuff I had heard on tv.

I remember not posting on the Cat of the Day for a while because I really didn't know how to do it. I wondered if I should start a new thread or just post on the one already started. I didn't want to be rude and jump in on someone else's thread uninvited. :eek:

As you can see, I got over it. But if anyone had been the least bit rude to me, I would have been so hurt, I would never have come back. I try to keep that in mind, specially with dealing with newbies. :)

[Pembroke_Corgi]

NEVER post angry. If you are angry, you will say things you should not. If you have an issue with a person, handle it privately, throughe mail or PM, or bring me into it. If a post makes you angry, don;t respond immediately -- take a dog for a walk, go skitch a kitty, do something else calming, then come back and type a response. Or another approach is to type up an angry response, but NOT post it. Email or PM it to youself, then let it sit for a couple hours. If you then reread it, and it seems reasonable, and not rude, THEN post it.

Wow, that is excellent advice. I know that I have been guilty of posting while I'm angry on at least a few occasions, but I realize I shouldn't. This is a message board, and we all have the opportunity to go over what we said...that's the beauty of it!

[lvpets2002]

:o Oh yes I so aggree Cyber-sibes .. I just read the post on that thread you spoke of && thought I wanted to ??? two people on there.. I was raised in the older days when RESPECT TO OTHER REALY MEANT SOMETHING.. Thank you so much for this thread..

[kitten645]

NEVER post angry. If you are angry, you will say things you should not

This is my golden rule. I'll usually only post a reply if I'm "stewing" about something for a while :cool: I find it very interesting that it's the same people that do it over and over again. I also find it interesting the some are applauded for being "to the point" or "frank" or "truthful". There is such a thing as tact. There is no need to be rude. Reread your post out loud to yourself and consider how it comes across. If you have a "helpful" suggestion to a newbie, send them a polite note privately. No need to cause anyone embarrassment.
If you want to fight take it private 'cause no one is interested.
My ignore list is growing :(

[IRescue452]

I must admit I've said some rude things, mostly in defense of myself or others. And I have no problem confronting people about their snippiness. But from another angle, don't take everything to be rude or arguemental. In one posts I was pointing out that cats are not safe outside at any time, and someone took it to be aimed at them. My words were not aimed at anybody and by no means meant to be attacking. They were in fact very general. In another, one person was speaking from the viewpoint of the animal (cat calling a dog bad names), and was attacked for it. If I spoke for my cat I'd certainly refer to dogs as dumb animals, knowing my cat's attitude.
Basically, if you expect an arguement, you'll read other people's post with a tone of malice, and you'll find an arguement out of nothing.

[Sevaede]

I agree.

Also, I would just like to point out something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about.

Whomever one may be chatting, or posting, to is obviously not someone that you are speaking with in person, at that point in time. I think one of the reasons there are arguments is that some things are misunderstood because we cannot properly convey our emotions and intents with *just* words. Certain words can quickly turn into an argument involving two, or more, people when the post was meant to be friendly and involving a totally different person. :)

[moosmom]

IRESCUE452,


Basically, if you expect an arguement, you'll read other people's post with a tone of malice, and you'll find an arguement out of nothing

Very well put!

[CagneyDog]

I agree with everything that has been said. I do however, have to add that it's not right for anyone to be rude. Is it alright for an adult to be rude to a teen? No. Is it alright for a teen to be rude to an adult? No. I don't like it when the "respect those that are older" situation comes up. It's a two way street and both people are in the wrong.

[Tollers-n-Dobes]

I try my best not to come across as rude in every single one of of my posts, but sometimes people will take what I say the wrong way...as I'm sure happens with many others here. However, the people who have been deliberately going out of their way to say something absurd and ignorant lately (or so it seems) are really, really getting on my nerves. Especially when it's about 'petty' (I use the word lightly, as some things I see as petty may not be to others) things such as accidentally posting in the wrong place, about a dog's ear crop, etc. When I first joined PT and a lot of the older members were still around, it seemed to be a lot more joyful and happy (not saying that I don't enjoy PT now. I do...it's just a lot different than it was then). Now it seems that one thread after another has some sort of rude comment in it. And if one person disgrees with something, the entire thread will turn into a fight over who's right and who's wrong. Overall though, I think it's still a great place..

[Ginger's Mom]

Whomever one may be chatting, or posting, to is obviously not someone that you are speaking with in person, at that point in time. I think one of the reasons there are arguments is that some things are misunderstood because we cannot properly convey our emotions and intents with *just* words. Certain words can quickly turn into an argument involving two, or more, people when the post was meant to be friendly and involving a totally different person. :)
I agree with this, but the real problem comes in when whoever misinterprets the "offending" post feels they have to say something on the public board that may be equally hurtful (whether intentional or not). If you (that is the general "you") read a post that you feel is offensive, PM the person, it is probably something that can quickly be cleared up. If it is not quickly cleared up you can always inform Karen (I bet this won't be necessary in a majority of the situations). But to reply in a public posting and then have other people seem to take sides, or add their comments just makes the situation much worse.

[CathyBogart]

This is, overall, the nicest forum I've ever seen. In fact, this is the ONLY forum I've seen where we can discuss hot topics like religion and gay marriage without having any arguments break out. We have our moments, sure, but overall this is a bunch of level-headed, intelligent people.

[cmayer31]

The worst part about the rude posts is when they hijack someone elses perfectly good thread. Personal attacks need to be taken to PM if at all. It's tough to read threads that have aggresive posts non-relevant to the thread. There's always a way to word a phrase or thought to make it constructive and if it can't be made more mellow it shouldn't be posted. There's so many good people here with a similar passion that it is silly to ruin other peoples threads with rudeness.

[luvofallhorses]

The worst part about the rude posts is when they hijack someone elses perfectly good thread. Personal attacks need to be taken to PM if at all. It's tough to read threads that have aggresive posts non-relevant to the thread. There's always a way to word a phrase or thought to make it constructive and if it can't be made more mellow it shouldn't be posted. There's so many good people here with a similar passion that it is silly to ruin other peoples threads with rudeness.

I agree.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

Great thread! I am sick and tired of all the arguing that goes on here, most of the time for no reason whatsoever. Heck! Even apologies turn nasty :(

[Daisy and Delilah]

The worst part about the rude posts is when they hijack someone elses perfectly good thread. Personal attacks need to be taken to PM if at all. It's tough to read threads that have aggresive posts non-relevant to the thread. There's always a way to word a phrase or thought to make it constructive and if it can't be made more mellow it shouldn't be posted. There's so many good people here with a similar passion that it is silly to ruin other peoples threads with rudeness.

Very well said Craig. I think, for the most part, this board stays friendly almost all the time. I may be corrected here but I only see one or two members that could use some better manners and consideration. Those people know who they are. I have to add in: my Mother always taught is not to say anything if we can't say something nice. That's what I try to go with every person I come into contact with. I'm so sorry for all the nice PT'ers we have that have been unneccessarily criticized or made to feel bad. Some comments I read are absolutely ridiculous and uncalled for. You people know who you are and I sincerely hope that you have recognized your mistakes by now and plan to do something about it.
I have nothing against any young person on this board. It's not the age of the person but the behavior they exhibit. I know the age thing bothers alot of people. Most of our younger members here are as intelligent and respectable as the older members. I'm well aware that an older person could be just as rude and insensitive as a teenager. It's a pleasure to have all you younger members with us to give us new and fresh perspectives.
I hope and pray the bad apples will learn to act better and if they're having a bad day, keep it to themselves instead of criticizing others to make them feel better. It's not fair and it just ends up hurting alot of innocent people.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

hmm....quite a timely link here people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3x_RRJdd4

[Cataholic]

ZOWIE!! I **think** I just stumbled on the thread to which you were referring. If so, all I can say, from a mother's perspective, that would have broken my heart. :(

[Laura's Babies]

Once I see a thread going "sour" I don't post on it, don't even go back to see what is going on.. Life is to short!

[Blue_Frog]

I haven't been here all that long -only a few months- but i've seen fighting going on between certain people. But, having been to a lot of other forums, IRC chat rooms, and BBSs for years now its nothing unique to this particular board. I figure that it's just human nature, and not everyone is going to get along - people butt heads in families, at work, and here on the intarweb.

Is that an excuse for rudeness and bad behaviour however? No. Now, my take on it is that theres a couple reasons rudeness/fights come up.

Theres unintended rudeness - you post something that in your head sounds one way, and comes out entirely differently once you've written it out. Take the time to read it - people can't always read sarcasm, humour, or other feelings in a post because they're not there to hear you say it, read facial expressions, etc. Take for example the word 'Seriously!' - theres the dictionary definition for it, but used with a facial expression, can be taken many different ways ...

Seriously! :D
Seriously :mad:
Seriously! :(
Seriously :rolleyes:

So, you write something, and people take offense to it. You make your apology, and people move on -or they don't- but you didn't mean to offend.


Then theres intended rudeness. This is referred to as "Trolling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)" - basically saying inflamatory things to get a rise out of people, and is farily common in forums that have a large number of members. I've seen this happen a few times before - one member someone posts something, and then the snippy comments come out about that person etc. in order to get them going, start a fight, or just make them feel bad - usually this happens between people who have some sort of history.

Honestly, thats just not cool. And, it makes a lot of other people uncomfortable to feel like they're stuck in the middle of something.

So, I guess it all goes back to the golden rule - try to treat others as you'd want to be treated, and apologize when its warranted.



Again with the -long posts- *sigh* ... I get on here to write one sentence and end up with a stinking novel :P



_A_

[Husky15]

One hundred percent agreed.

I truly don't know where I would be today if I had not found Pet Talk. I went onto Google and typed in Pet Forums and was lucky enough to come across PT. Once I joined Pet Talk and got to look around and stuff, I was amazed. Everybody was so nice and I did not see one person fight. I assumed that where this forum is all about pets and how we love them that people would be nice, but I never expected them to be this nice. Never once have I seen a forum where people were not at each other's throat. Most of the forums I've been on were full of foul language and everybody was yelling at everybody and dissing everything. There's just no other word to discribe Pet Talk but amazing.

That's the main reason why I continued posting on Pet Talk. And getting to see everybody's adorable pets and learn about them is wonderful. Everybody is so trusting here. Pet Talk is just one big family and it is very special to me.

Even my parents and sister notice a difference in me. My sister noticed that I smile a lot more now and my mother especially notices how much I've learned about animals and how much more I love them and appreciate them.

It is only natural that some people clash. Not everyone in this world gets along perfectly, and they are going to argue and fight and defend themself, it is only human nature. But we must remember to have self-control. Even I have to remember to because I can have quite a temper when I want to.

And we can disagree with other people's opinions and say that we disagree, but we must respect their opinion and they will respect our's. That's the one big thing that I remember when posting on a forum, because disrespect of opinions is what I find to be one big cause of fights.

All in all, I just don't like it when I see people fighting - especially on Pet Talk. Sure sometimes what people say can be funny, but it's fighting nonetheless. And personally, I do not wish to be on bad terms with anyone on this site.


What I often remind people is that this is Pet Talk - we are all here because we love pets. That separates us from the rest of humanity, but in a good way, so we should respect each other for that, despite our differences.

Exactly. :)


Again with the -long posts- *sigh* ... I get on here to write one sentence and end up with a stinking novel :P

You and me both lol.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

Husky15 - I like it! Wish everyone could follow your example

[Husky15]

Husky15 - I like it! Wish everyone could follow your example

Thanks :) I try my best.

[lvpets2002]

:o Thank you & enough said..
Once I see a thread going "sour" I don't post on it, don't even go back to see what is going on.. Life is to short!

[buttercup132]

AMEN Cyber-sibes!!!

I have always given people the benefit of the doubt. I have also tried to treat people the way I would like to be treated, with respect. I have seen SO much disrespect and rudeness towards certain PTers on this board by others, who have not yet experienced all that life has to offer, if you know what I'm talking about. It makes me ill. If my daughter EVER spoke to any elder the way certain members speak to us, the OLDER generation, she'd have been grounded.

I also realize that everyone has their good and bad days, God only knows I'm guilty as well. But some members just seem to be rude and disrespectful ALL THE TIME!! It saddens me.

And you're right, it's so petty, some of the stuff being argued about. Don't apologize for ranting here. That's what we're here for, to listen and learn. I only wish some members would do just that, LISTEN AND LEARN!

JMO.I am NOT trying to start a fight but you usually are rude to alot of the younger members on PT. Ive seen you post somthing nice to only a few of the younger memebers
And not everyone on PT knows how old everyone is.
Someone may think that someone is 13 but really they are 20.


I know the OP was talking about me and I have fixed what I said and explained myself



it's not right for anyone to be rude. Is it alright for an adult to be rude to a teen? No. Is it alright for a teen to be rude to an adult? No. I don't like it when the "respect those that are older" situation comes up. It's a two way street and both people are in the wrong.
I totally agree! I hate when adults think thats its ok. Its not, just because were younger dosent mean we are any less human and dosent mean we have any less feelings.

[shais_mom]

I remember the thread in question way back when this was posted but I must have missed this thread.
Honestly - I try and try and try to IGNORE the rudeness adult, young adult alike. But some days it just gets to me more than others. I was informed in PM earlier that I have "picked" on people. I may have but if I did it was b/c they were picking on someone else. I am a hugely passive aggressive person so for this to be thrown in my face...... I hate conflict but I can't stand the rudeness for any member. Young or old. Respect is a two way street - and to quote
- I hate when adults think thats its ok. Its not, just because were younger dosent mean we are any less human and dosent mean we have any less feelings. That is entirely true but the 'youngin's need to remember that just b/c we are older that WE are any less human and doesn't mean WE have any less feelings.

**good thread - Pat **

[Miss Z]

I haven't been around on PT for a while so thankfully I think I've missed most of these arguments. I know in the past I've been involved in the odd one or two, but I really do try my best to steer well clear of the threads in question.

I understand the whole 'adults vs teens' prospective that some people have, but to be honest, I don't see it happening. Used to, in the first few months of my joining of this forum, but not any more. Now either I am blind and living on cloud nine or there's a lot more mutual respect on PT now.

One of the main reasons I generally keep out of arguments is that, strictly speaking, I do not know these people on a personal level. Of course, there are some people on here that I pm or chat to often and have become very friendly with them, and I'm sure that's the case with most people here, and other people that I do not know quite so well. However, having never met any of those people face to face, I do not have the right to have a full-blown rampage at them based purely on what they have written on a friendly site. Surely I can disagree and say what I think about a subject, but I don't need snide comments or teeth and claws to back up my point of view. Everyone here should know better than that.

[Rachel]

I don't know that I can add anything to what has already been posted here, other than when I occasionally read a thread that has turned heated over something seemingly petty, I try to read it over again to see what was so offensive to begin with. Sometimes I just don't see anything to take offense at. While I agree wholeheartedly that one shouldn't be rude, the other side of that coin is one shouldn't be so thin skinned that they look for insults when they just aren't there.

Then too I have a caveat on the *If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.* Some threads are seemingly a call for help or advice for a life situation fraught with difficulty. If the only response is *something nice*, that isn't very helpful. I don't mean that one should make a rude or uncaring remark, but suggestions which might not be what the poster was looking for might just be the ones which (in the responder's opinion) could be helpful.

Many topics are those which are going to generate a wide range of opinions. Be prepared for that. Don't jump down people's throat for the least little thing which you consider a slight. Remember when you speak about other people on this board, you are essentially doing it behind their back yet in a way they will overhear. I have run up on threads criticizing others which I would have been mortified had the talk been about something I did.

Personally I think an apology goes a long way. If upon reflection, one statements have been an ill thought out reaction, a heart felt *I'm sorry* might be a way to handle that mistake.

[Maya & Inka's mommy]

Thanks Cyber-sibes !! This is making me feel sick too. I try never to be rude, and I hate it when nice threads turn into nasty ones... :(

Please, do like Karen says: do NOT post names, it is better to PM Karen!!

[lvpets2002]

:) I just Love This Video Brody's Mum
:) ;) Here Is A A ((((((((((((BIG HUUGGSS)))))))))))) from Meowmom & the girls
hmm....quite a timely link here people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3x_RRJdd4