separation anxiety???

[yorkster]

Please, I need advice! I adopted a dog about mid July. She is a border collie/black lab mix, and is 3 years old. I don't know her history as she was a stray at a shelter. For the first month, I went to work everyday and she was a very good dog at home- only once did she have an 'accident' on the carpet. Also no chewing, etc. I was then laid-off from my job (early Aug.). Now I am home a lot and take her with me when I leave as much as I can. The problem is this: When I have to leave and absolutely CAN'T take her, even if it is an hour or two, I come home to her having 'done her duties' on the carpet. I always make sure she goes outside to do so before I leave, so I know she is not being made to wait too long. She has also started doing some chewing that she never did before. She is a dog that follows me everywhere, even inside the house. She has to be in the same room with me all the time. She has a crate that she sleeps in during the night next to the bed (we have cats that run around and she likes to chase). I don't really want to put her in a crate all the time when I leave, since she is in there at night, but I have had people say it would be fine..........The main thing I want to understand is if this is maybe separation anxiety, and what I could do about it, or is it something else? It is puzzling to me because she was fine at first when I was still going to work everyday. Maybe she is just getting spoiled by my being home, etc. so much? ANY ideas &/or suggestions would be welcome, because I don't know what to do and I Love her a lot!

[lizbud]

yorkster...
The only thing I can say FOR SURE is to not
listen to anybody that says"it would be fine'
to leave your dog in the crate when you have
to leave.(If she stays in a crate at night)
There are experienced behavior people here at Pet Talk who can give you a more detailed answer to your problem.This problem is very
solveable. Crateing to much won't help..
Good Luck to you in finding the right
answer...

[KayAnn]

What we did when we first got Simba, was he stayed in his cage while we were gone at school and work, and he was out 24\7 when we were home.... I think its is fine to keep them in the cage, i always left a snack in there with him but never leave a bone (it could become soft and they could choke and u would never know) And to keep him occupied we kept a mirror between the wall and his cage, he would sit thre for hours staring at the mirror looking at himself! We also played with him a while befor we left, so he wouyld calm down and want to sleep, but now he is such a good boy his cage is collapsed and under my bed and he stays out 24\7!

[Pam]

Yorkster, I just read your profile and you have 2 cats and 1 dog, just like me! :) Our dog is a standard poodle, 8 months old. She has been housebroken for many months now and as soon as we felt confident that there would be no more potty mistakes she was allowed to sleep in our bed at night. You mention that she loves to be with you wherever you are, so I really doubt that she would have an accident overnight if left loose in your bedroom. Our Bella never leaves the bedroom at night because she wants to be where we are too. If the kitties are a problem you might consider temporarily shutting the door until some sort of bedtime routine has been established. Most likely once your dog is asleep the kitties will have a little peace and feel free to do their nighttime roaming without fear of being chased. :) I actually never had to close the bedroom door and my cats quite often come sleep on the bed beside her, once they know she is "out like a light." :D

During the day we have to crate her if no one is going to be home. This is just because she still occasionally gets "into trouble" with her chewing, although we are even seeing improvement there. Since I only work part-time she is never in the crate for extended periods of time during the day and usually only 3-4 days per week. The minute someone is home she is out and free!

Not knowing your dog's history regarding cats is probably a bit of a worry to you. That is where maybe I have had an easier time of it. Bella was only 8 weeks old when she came to live with us so she grew up with the cats. Also, the cats had lived previously with dogs so we felt confident that there would be a peaceful co-eexistence.

I am not very knowledgeable about separation anxiety, although I know it is a real thing that dogs experience. Aly, one of our Pet Talk friends, has had some experience with that with her poodle, Reece. Fortunately with much patience he is now over that hurdle. Hopefully Aly will see this thread and be able to help you out there. Aly, any thoughts??

[shais_mom]

I would start by putting her in her crate while you are away and leaving her out at night. Maybe babygate the bedroom off with her in it. I was the exact opposite when I got Shaianne, I wanted her in the crate when I was gone and not at night. She did very well crated.

[Dixieland Dancer]

There was a thread just last week on separation anxiety which Aly and myself addressed in detail. It was:

How will I break my dog from me leaving the house? http://petoftheday.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000209

You can refer to that thread for extensive updates on separation anxiety and some things you can do to hopefully correct the situation.

[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: Dixieland Dancer ]

[3-greys-and-a-mutt]

We crate two of our dogs when we are away from home, but because of my husband's work schedule, they are rarely left alone for more than 4 hours at a time.
At night, we either close our bedroom door or put a baby gate in the doorway.
All four dogs don't mind going into their crates, but we like the idea of them being able to stretch out a little more and relax at night. (they are often belly-up and all stretched out during the night - in Buddy's case, that's about six feet!)
We have found crating to be a wonderful technique. Just don't give any food-type products that the dog can choke on, such as bones, rawhides, etc. If you give a kong, only stuff it with smooth substances, like craemy peanut butter, fat-free cream cheese, or liverwurst. Also, take you dog's collar off when you crate him. If the dog gets stressed and bangs around inside the crate, it can get its license/tags stuck between the bars - a serious strangulation hazard.
Good luck!

[aly]

Hi yorkster, you're absolutely right that this is seperation anxiety and it was triggered when she got used to being around you all the time. Refer to the post Dixieland Dancer showed you and that will offer some great tips.

I think an important thing for you to do is be aloof with her while you are training her out of it. I know its hard! I had to be aloof with my Reece baby from the minute I brought him home and it nearly killed me! It will be worth it though if you won't have to worry about seperation anxiety anymore. Try not to let her follow you from room to room when you are home. Maybe give her a stuffed kong or something really great in the kitchen or another room. If she tries to take it to the room where you are, take it away. Only allow her to have it if she's in the kitchen alone. You may want to use baby gates to help you with this. Also try the ignoring her 10 minutes before you leave and after you get home.

I know this is one of the hardest things to deal with (been through it twice this year!), but if you stick with the training, you should have great results. Be sure to look at that other post too, as it goes into more detail. Good luck!

[yorkster]

Thanks everyone for your advice- I'm going to start letting my dog (Scout) sleep next to the bed. Her Crate is next to the bed too, but I don't think she thought of it as being 'with' us. So now it's crate when we are gone, sleep with us at night. I will have to figure something out to do about the cats, since they can get the door open. Next I will take your suggestions about keeping cool & firm when I go to leave and return home- that is going to be a tough one!!! One more question: is it okay for her to sleep on the bed?

[Dixieland Dancer]

Yorkster,
If you only knew the can of worms you just opened up with that question! LOL There are many differing opionions on that subject and some of them are quite passionate, mine included!

Both my dogs sleep on the bed and I love every moment of it. I miss them when they are not there!

However, that being said we need to consider the problem you are having with separation anxiety. Until you get this under control you need to make the dog know you are Alpha (leader of the pack) and that you are not going to abandon him. Your pup needs to learn to be content by its self before you can invite it to sleep with you. Take the measures discribed above by letting the dog have "time alone" while you are near but don't make big fusses over him. Make him sleep off the bed for the time being. Set up a comfortable place that is the dogs alone and let him stay there until you think the problem is better. It may take a couple of months but that is better than having the problem forever. Once he does okay when you are not around you can start out gradually to invite the dog onto the bed if that is what you want.

Carrie,
I know you are cringing at this advice. :eek: But I did recommend not sleeping in the bed for awhile! :D LOL

[yorkster]

Ok.....I'll start having her sleep next to the bed this weekend- maybe I should get a dog bed? I have been working at being more firm with her about stuff. She is also just started obedience classes, which I hope will work. My husband is a problem though sometimes- he lets her get away with even more than I do! I doubt he will change much though, but I guess it's okay since I'm the one that is with her most of the time and takes her to classes. I get the feeling that my dog is also kinda.....I don't know what the word would be but the closest I can think of is angry, and maybe more like frustrated. Yesterday I was gone for several hours (school & B.day shopping) and could not take her with me. When I got home, I played ball with her for awhile. That is usually when she 'does her duties'. Well, she went potty, but about 10 minutes after coming in the house, she did a doo-doo on the carpet in the living room! I was in the other room and didn't catch in the act. Why would she do that? She had just been outside!

[RachelJ]

It seems like the advice you are getting is literally all over the board. First, what I would like to say is to look it all over and then stay tuned in to your dog. You know her personality better than any of us who have not seen her or lived with her. Not all dogs are alike and different things seem to work with different dogs. Now that I've said that, I'm going to proceed with my own advice, with the qualification that I am not an expert.

I think your dog would benefit from a fairly consistant routine. I would start by making sure you and she have some special times together....say maybe a walk in the morning and playtime in the afternoon. Be consistant and at approximately the same time of day, so she knows that these are her special times that she can count on. They don't have to be really long, maybe 20 - 30 minutes. She will also be getting her exercise and you can work on getting her used to associating a word with urinating and pooping. I have a dog who literally "forgets to go" while she is outside, so before she comes in, I can ask her, "Did you go potty?" and if she hasn't gone, she will turn around and "go" because she knows what I am talking about.

As noted above, there are those who do not believe you should let a dog sleep on the bed. Well, there are those of us who believe that unless the dog is exhibiting a very dominant personality, sleeping on the bed is one of the most rewarding pleasurable experiences for both the human and the dog. Your dog has NOT been sleeping on the bed, so this problem cannot be blamed on that. In my humble opinion, your dog could get more of that together time she craves and will be denied during the day, at night.

Some dogs seem real comfortable going to their crate for short periods of time during the day. If that is the case, then use it. If not, and she barks and seems agitated when you put her in her crate and you walk out the door, then I would feel using the crate would be exacerbating the problem. I frankly do not like the idea of using a crate for any length of time, i.e. while you are gone all day to work. In lieu of that, is there a kitchen area where she could be somewhat confined so she not get into as much as she could in the whole house? My ultimate solution for a dog with separation anxiety is not always practical...it's another dog! Please keep up on what is going on with you and Scout.

[yorkster]

That is funny Rachel that you brought up about your dog that 'forgets' to go.....I think that is part of what happens with my dog. Everytime I open the back door to let her out, or go out with her, she thinks 'ball-time!' - either that or 'beach-time!' She gets sooo exited and won't do anything except BEG me to play with her. Sometimes she will stop and do her duties while we are playimg fetch (if she has to go REALLY bad, like in the morning), but otherwise it seems like all she can think of is playing ball! I have tried saying 'did you go potty?' and then taking her to her spot. If she goes, I say 'good potty!' But, so much of the time she does not go, and just stands there or jumps around wanting to play. I am not working right now, and go to school a couple nights a week, so she gets plenty of time with me. I take her on a run &/or play ball with her at least 3 times a day. She does not seem to mind going in her crate, as long as it is only for short periods of time. Last night I had her sleep next to the bed (no crate) for the first time, and she did fine. The only problem I have with that is that we have to shut the bedroom door because she will chase the cats who are up running around a lot during the night (one is 9 month old kitten still). I miss having my kitties in there with me, but the cats and dog have not worked it out yet- I know that will come with time. Either way, she will spend less time in her crate than before, which was most of the night when we slept (the crate was right next to the bed, so I thought she felt close to us, but maybe I was wrong). Anyway, I am hoping that sleeping with us, and not in her crate, along with some obedience classes and a more regular routine, will help. Thanks to everyone for their advice- I'll keep you posted on how it goes in the next few weeks.

[carrie]

I'm very sorry, I have only just caught up with this thread.
As you can see there are many ways that people think of their dogs and what their dogs are telling them. Many also misunderstand the classical terminology that is attatched to dog behaviour - the most common misunderstanding is the use of the word dominant.
Your dog is doing it's very best to take on the dominant role in the house as you are giving it signals that you are unable to cope with the role. It therefore believes that it is responsible for your wellfare at all times and when you leave it alone it is unable to take care of you in the way that it thinks it should. To try and cope with it's panic it is marking it's territory VERY well in an attempt to make the home safer and better protected from the outside world. It is chewing and destroying furniture to further release it's feelings of stress and panic.
The only thing you can so to help your dog is to take away the responsibility by becoming a more dominant animal than your dog is. Your dog has taken on it's role because every pack needs a leader to survive as a pack - as nobody else has taken the role your dog feels it has to. It has no idea how to carry out this role in a world of humans.
I suggest you get a behaviourist to help you as soon as you can - crating your dog will confine it's panic and worry not end it.

[carrie]

Allowing your dog to sleep on your bed will add another, very strong, indication to your dog that you are confirming it's belief that you see it as the leader.

[karen israel]

Hi Carrie!...I know you explained this before, but I'm still puzzled (what a surprise THAT is! :D )as to why the dog is alpha if it sleeps on your bed? The only time Cody will jump on my bed is if I'm NOT in it, ie: getting dressed, cleaning... or he sometimes naps there during the day. Luckily there's no room for the both of us anyway (he'd smother me)Would Cody still be considered alpha in this situation? You know it's taken ME a long time to assume the alpha role and I'd like to keep it that way.

[RachelJ]

And as long as you are explaining, I have a question as well. How do a pack of wolves in the wild sleep? Do they sleep together or by themselves? Does the Alpha wolf sleep with the rest of the pack or off by himself in a spot he designates as the best?

[carrie]

Alpha status is really a straightforward thing to a dog as it universally understood and accepted. People find it very hard to grasp the concept and even harder to put it into practice for, I believe, two reasons. The first is the way we view our pets - we all know that we have domesticated wolves living with us. That bit is easy to understand. What muddles us up is that we are suprised by the intelligence and individual character of the dog and we fall in love. This would be fine if we continued to see the dog as a dog and treat it as a dog (wolf) but humans find this very hard. Instead we start to treat the dog as part human and give him, for instance, a bit of cheese as a treat when we are making a sandwich for ourselves, or encourage the dog to sleep on the bed with us. Dogs are dogs - that is it - that is as hard as dog training gets. There is no other concept that has to be remembered. Dogs don't think like humans or talk to each other like humans or understand our actions or gestures as another human would because they are dogs. Dogs can not be expected to take care of themselves on a busy street because they don't understand the human world as a human does.
Which brings me on to the second reason - terminology. Words like dominance, submission and aggression are very strong and emotive words when humans use them. Every one of them is linked to violence, fear, danger and threat. When used correctly in the context of behaviour they have very different meanings (usually...there are exceptions but let's not confuse the issue now). Many people find the idea of being dominant towards their dog a very difficult thing to deal with as they are imagining forcing, making the dog do what I say or hurting the dog to make it comply. Many trainers are also guilty of misunderstanding the subtle submissive gestures given by their dogs and are not happy until the dog is flat on it's back.

In the wild the pack will sleep where the Alpha pair decides they can sleep. If it is cold that may be in a heap that looks like a jumble - it isn't! Every member knows exactly where the limits are and do not overstep them. If you allow your dog to sleep with you because you and he both enjoy the closeness you are telling your dog that it has an equal rank, status, level of dominance as you when it is bed time. This is fine if this is the only time your dog gets this message and you are happy with it. It is not fine if you are having any other problem with your dog as it will confuse the dog and make ironing out the other problem more stressful and difficult for you both.

By allowing Cody to sleep on your bed when you are not there you are telling him that he is second to you only. That is also fine if you don't mind, if he leaves the bed EVERY time you ask him to and if everyone else in the house doesn't have a problem with the dog. But I would suggest that second place is still very high for a dog that has had a hard time trusting you to lead him.

Phew!!!! You should know by now that if you ask I will answer.....fully!
Hope that has answered your questions without putting you both to sleep!!!!

[lizbud]

Carrie,
If you have caught your breath so to speak,
I have two questions,please.
1: My dog Buddy will sleep in my bed during
wintertime only and after I have already gone to sleep.(I wake to find him at the foot of
the bed).Is this a dominence issue?
2: Are separation anxiety issues always
linked to dominence issues in some way?
Thanks very much, Lizbud.

[carrie]

Yes it is a dominant behaviour but bear in my that your dog is only taking advantage of a situation - it is not challenging you for overall control here. If the dog totally believed the relationship between you and it was as you see it the dog would not get on the bed. It may even be that you are welcoming the dog in your sleep or, more to the point, your dog believes that you are welcoming it. Maybe you turn your back on him when he gets up so signalling that his prescence is not objectionable.

I have never come across a case of seperation anxiety that was not linked to the dog's status in the eyes of the dog. I have also never had a case that was not eased by taking the responsibility off the dog of being the leader. The only dogs I don't consider cured of their anxiety are the ones that have improved so much in their owners eyes that the owner is over the moon, happy as can be but refuse to go any further with a dog that they consider cured. The most infuriating thing I have heard on many occasions is when I comment on a behaviour the dog is still showing and the owner says, "Oh well, she's always done that!"

[lizbud]

Carrie,
Thanks for your comments.I believe you are
absolutly right with both answers.I could
make Bud get off the bed 'if I wanted to',
but it has never bothered me,so was not an
issue with me.Just wanted to know why he
would want to sleep in the bed only in the
winter? (Maybe he was cold on the floor?)
Only time I shooed him off was once when I
rolled over and came 'nose to nose' with
him sharing my pillow.That was a bit much.
I think most people want to 'reasure' a
anxious dog as we would a person,and that
only makes the dog more anxious.You're right,
it's a communication problem between people
and dogs. My dog is very 'pushy' and I work
on that everyday.It will always be a work in
progress.. Thanks again.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Carrie, you know me, I'm impossible with Daisy. When she first slept with me, when I came out of the bathroom she would be on my pillow. I did not allow that, she had to go on her own pillow,(I know that sounds crazy)
She kept trying and I kept telling her no.
Now she accepts the fact that she cannot go on my pillow and she has to stay on her side of the bed (I know I know it still sounds crazy) I have really been working with her in other ways, when I call her to me I make sure she comes, I have told her no bark when she is at the window and she is doing fairly well. Do you think there is a time that even when a dog sleeps with you that they will ever consider you Alpha? When Don calls her she runs to him, when I call her she takes a detour to come to me, do you think she considers me a littermate? I'm serious!
Are there just cantankerous dogs?
Jackie

[Pam]

Jackie, I am afraid I feel much the way you and Rachel do about the Big Bed. Bella has been sleeping in our bed since she was potty trained. :) I don't think it's crazy about you wanting Daisy on her own pillow. As I was reading that I was laughing but it was only because you were apologizing for sounding crazy. I didn't think you were crazy at all. I think you are doing better with Daisy than you realize because she does respect your wishes about the pillow!

As far as her listening to Don better than you, I think a man's voice sometimes carries more weight. Sometimes I try to change my voice to be deeper just to see. :) Bella will come to me just as quickly when I call, but there are other areas where she will obey hubby more quickly than me. For instance if she is about to do something naughty and she sees him close by she will not even try it. What comes to mind is the day she was about to steal a sock out of the dryer and saw him coming and dropped it on the floor. If he hadn't walked by she may or may not have dropped it if I told her to, depending on her mood. :rolleyes:

[yorkster]

That is funny Pam- in my house it is just he opposite. My hubby is more the softy (EXCEPT when it comes to potty, etc. in the house, which I have been hiding from him). I will walk into the L.room and she is halfway on the couch, and I'll say 'please don't let her on the couch' and he will say something like 'I didn't ask her up, she just did it on her own'.......meanwhile he is petting her and saying what a good dog she is. I do think that I have finally got it through his head that it is wrong and only making the problem worse. On another note, I think I have had a breakthrough on the problem: 4 days since a potty/poop in the house, and she is sleeping next to the bed succesfully. She still will climb up on the bed if I am not in the room, but jumps right down when I walk in, so she KNOWS better now. I have also been working really hard at being more firm and 'alpha', and it seems to be paying-off! Keeping my fingers crossed...........

[carrie]

Jackie, you know how I feel about Daisy in your bed!!!!!!
Until you have control in all other areas you are making life so much harder for yourself and the dogs than it needs to be. Until everyone is 100% sure of their place and safety in that place and as a pack Daisy feel that she has no obligation or desire to listen to you. Your dog's willingness is tightly bound to how it sees your and it's status - it will want to, even have an instinctive need to please a leader but has no time, incentive or need to indulge the whims of lesser members of the pack. By allowing Daisy to sleep with you before this is established properly you are giving confused signals to your dog that she can only interpret as she would if they came from another dog. She is not convinced that you are able to take care of the pack because of your confused language about the subject (to her) and as a pack needs to be lead she feels she has no other option than try to do the job herself.

No, I don't believe there are cantankerous dogs (although there are some with neurological problems that can't be helped- that is a totally different subject), only confused dogs forced into a leadership role that they aren't able to cope with and don't want.

Pam, the way you describe Bella dropping the sock she was stealing proves that it is not his voice that she is respecting more than yours but his attitude. His actions when he is around tells her that he is totally in control of the environment and that is all she needs to know to feel and show respect and a willingness to do what he asks. This is dominance in action.

Yorkster - I'm so glad that you are having such good results. If your husband doesn't understand set him a challenge. Bet him that he can't ignore the dog for two days - totally. If he can he will see a huge difference in the dog and you will be grateful enough to......( you fill in that part on your own!!). If he can't ..........(another bit for you). Even he only manages three or four hours he should see the dog's perception change and much happoer and more relaxed dog emerge.
Well done and keep it up!!!

Did I miss anyone?!!

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: carrie ]

[yorkster]

Hmmmmm......that is a great idea Carrie! He is pretty competitive, and I have 'bet' him before on things like helping around the house when company is coming, i.e. 'I bet you won't be able to get your computer room cleaned-up by Friday'. It works most of the time as long as I don't do it too often. I'll present him with a challenge as soon as I think of the reward...........Thanks Carrie, you have helped a lot and cleared some things up for me. We will see how the next few days go. Today and tomorrow will be a test because I have school and a seminar to go to- it's more common for her to 'act up' when I have to be gone, and she has to stay home.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Carrie, I hate to tell you this but I think we are hopeless LOL It's time to confess, when I look at her big brown eyes rolling at me, I tell her O.K. Daisy you can be Alpha tonight, but I'm Alpha tomorrow night LOL. I told her Carrie says you can't sleep in the Big Bed with me and she says to me, Who is Carrie?LOL
And I say Carrie is an expert with dogs, and Daisy says to me the only dog around here is Perry and he don't sleep in the Big Bed so what's the beef?LOL
Where is Pam and Rachel when I need them? LOL
Love Ya Carrie
Jackie

[RachelJ]

Right here Jackie! I wasn't going to comment anymore having stated my opinion, but since Daisy needs help, I came up with this from the book *Good Owners, Great Dogs, A Training Manual for Humans and Their Canine Companions* by Brian Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson. FAQ section contains the following
"Q. Is allowing my dog to sleep on the bed bad? A. If your dog is otherwise well behaved, it is not a bad thing to let him sleep on the bed. Tri is always on our bed. Caras comes up when invited. Piper prefers his dog bed. If you are single and hope not to be one day, don't let the dog sleep up there all the time. Insist that he wait until his is invited. Have him sit, then say 'OK up' and pat the bed. If he jumps up on his own, put him off and make him wait." So even the experts can have a different take on this topic.

The issue is really moot as far as I'm concerned because I would not give up sleeping with my dogs for the most well behaved, obedient, and subservient versions of these two that I could imagine. The pleasure of their company and their enjoyment of mine during our shared time in the bed in incalculable. For me, it is bliss.

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: RachelJ ]

[carrie]

Brian Kilcommons does not have a different view to this question to me - he has just put it in a much softer way. "If your dog is otherwise well behaved...." is exactly what I said. It should not, then, cause problems.

[RachelJ]

My apologies, Carrie, you did say that.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Carrie, I fear that I need Daisy more than she needs me and probably that is the problem. You are right I don't treat her as a dog, I treat her as my best friend. At our age we are in declining health and playing with her and Perry in the morning while we have our coffee is very beneficial. Our family thinks we are a little bonkers, we have photos of both of them all over. We already did the Mom and Dad thing and then we did the Grandma and Grandpa thing now for the first time in forty years we are doing our own thing.
I know deep in my heart a dog should be made to obey commands, do the things a dog should do and then I think of all the dogs in the shelters and if only I could save and help them all. Since we can't, the next best thing is giving Daisy and Perry all the love and comfort we can. Carrie, I truly do respect your knowledge and I know you are right, but at this time in our life, we would rather spend our time spoiling them than correcting them. I really do appreciate your input and it does help us to understand them and we try. You have been so wonderful and patient with everybody, you are a gem.
Jackie

[carrie]

Jackie, I think the world of you, I really do but earlier in this discussion I mentioned how people struggle with the meaning of dominance. Never once in this discussion have I said that play is a bad thing - it is, in fact one of the fundamental ways a dog learns. I have not mentioned giving corrections - you shouldn't until you are seen as the leader and then only in extreme conditions. All need for corrections vanishes when the dog understands that you are the leader - all you need do is give the dog signals that it understands the meaning of.
I am not trying to stop anyone enjoying play, cuddles or time with their dog. All I am asking people to do is take pressure off the dog to be something it can not ever be. By doing this you can spend more time doing enjoyable things with a happier, more relaxed and unstressed dog. There is no forcing, no corrections - you have a dog that does what you ask of it because it wants to, does not have the feeling that it has to protect you or your house from everybody and is less likely to react badly to strangers, both canine and human. It is an animal that has only to enjoy life with you and has no worries. Not one negative word needs to be uttered nor any physical force used.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Jackie,
I can relate!!! We are doing the mom and dad thing now (two boys age 25 and 11) and look forward to the grandma and grandpa thing but I'm sure we will always be doing the doggie thing! :D :D :D I sometimes let my dogs get away with small things but in the big things, I make sure I win so they keep it in perspective who is boss. I love sleeping with the pups and constantly hear from the 11 year old "How come you get to sleep with them but they don't want to sleep with me?" What can I say..... they just love the mama person :)

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Carrie, I understand what you are trying to say, you know I don't know how dogs think, so I use words probably not very professional like correction etc, I know I will never be the Alpha with Daisy however she considers Don the Alpha and listens to him and comes to him when he calls, so I think she is o.k. and relaxed. You are exactly right in your directions, except there are people like me who look at their dogs as babies and I don't think you could ever change us, but we try. :D :D :D
Jackie

[yorkster]

Hi to Carrie, Aly, Rachel, and everyone else who has responded to my questions. I hope you are all still reading this thread. It was a couple days ago that I said that I felt there was a breakthrough with my dog Scout. Well.......tonight she just went pee on the carpet! I am frustated! I guess I have two questions: #1. Can I still feel things are on their way to definate improvement since she had a relapse? I mean, it has been several days now, which is better than what it has been. Is it 'normal' for there to be some old behavior for a period of time? I have only been being firm and more alpha for aprox. a week now. How long is it reasonable to expect this to take? Right now I feel like I/We have failed, and I must still be doing something wrong. Or worse yet, that my dog is being especially BAD.
#2. The other question is that she keeps going back to the same spot(s). I have been using an enzyme type order & stain remover, but I know that sometimes it takes several applications (on carpet) to work completely. Is it possible that she thinks that maybe it is okay in those spots, because she can maybe still 'smell' urine there even though we can't? I have used that stuff before with my cats and it worked wonders. Is there something better?
Maybe I just worry too much, or am expecting too much too soon. Set me straight if I need it! Thanks everyone.

[carrie]

You have done a sterling job to change your dog's view of life in such a short space of time. She is no longer in a total panic about you every time you leave her sight - just imagine what a difference to her life that must make.
One accident.....paaah! So what? (try washing the spot with biological washing powder that you would use in your clothes washer)
Your dog is not BAD - just in a bad way.
Can I also say that this has not got a time limit, when you have taken the pressure off your dog it is important that you don't let old habits return.
I'm not sure what you mean by being firmer with her. It is yourself you need to be firmer with, not the dog. You need to be sure that you have no eye contact with the dog when you leave or enter a room and don't speak to her until she has been relaxed and settled for a few minutes. Then she must do something for you before you give her any attention - a simple sit is enough and then you can show her how pleased you are to see her. If she doesn't do as you ask simply move away from her and ignore her for a little longer. You must be totally convincing and totally calm. Ignore her if she asks for your attention until she has been calm and relaxed for a few minutes - then ask her to sit before she gets any fuss. That is all - no shouting, no getting angry and no forcing. It is her choice and if you can do this she will choose to relax quicker each time.

[Dixieland Dancer]

You dog is not BAD. She just doesn't understand yet 100% what you expect of her. You are seeing progress so be excited and not frustrated! Make sure when you take the dog out that you give a command such as "Go Potty" and praise like crazy when she does. If she has an ACCIDENT in the house and you see her, then quickly escort her outside and give the command. Chances are she has relieved herself enough not to have to go again but she will make the connection if you give the command and praise her enough.

You do not correct, yell, or punish the dog, especially if you do not see her in the act. This just instills anxiety in her and frustration in you! Make sure you give her plenty of opportunity to please you by making sure she goes out about 20 minutes after each meal, immediately in the morning, before bedtime, and several other times during the day. If you set her up for success then your job will be much easier.

Keep up the good work!!!!

[RachelJ]

I agree. Try to give your dog a specific routine, a schedule so to speak. This includes feeding and outside for potty. Try to keep the times as consistant as possible. That is, if you normally get up at 6 am, then do it even if there are days when you could sleep late. (Get up, let the dog out and then go back to bed, if you want to.) If this were my dog, I would accompany her outside and watch to make sure that she "goes" when she is out and then give her praise when she does. I know, I know, it is a pain in the butt, but it is a big help. The main thing is you don't want her to establish a habit of going in the house. There have been a lot of changes in this dogs life. First who knows what she went through in her previous environment, then there was the trauma of the shelter where maybe she HAD to relieve herself in her cage, then you took her home but were going to work, and then you were there and home with her and taking her everywhere with you and then you started to leave her again at varying times which she couldn't predict. So be patient with her and do not expect miracles overnight, but have faith that you and she can come to grips with a routine that is going to make her comfortable and secure. I know you spend a lot of time and play with her, but try to make this at a specific time of the day, so she can count on it as part of her routine.

In regard to the area she has chosen to go in the house, is this an out of the way place, like a dining room that is rarely used? If it is, then make sure that you use that room more. Play with her there, maybe sit and do your reading. Some dogs choose out of the way spots in the house as they don't feel it is as much a area where they live.

Please have confidence that this is a problem that will get better with your dedication and efforts which will help Scout to understand and feel secure.

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: RachelJ ]

[yorkster]

Okay, thanks everyone- I feel much better now. I will also incorporate some of your suggestions into my routine. She was really good today! Left the neighbors dog on the other side of the fence alone (well, once she harrassed her), no potties on the carpet, and finally would 'shake' on command with NO treats to entice. She has known how to do that for awhile, but would only do it for treats before! She would look at my other hand to see if I had treats, and if not, would NOT shake. We are making progress!

[ktreva52]

Well, I'm about to add my two cents here. I am a believer in using crates for several types of discipline and when you just cannot trust the dog. Think of it as the dog's "room". Just as you would give a child his/her own room, the crate functions like that for the dog. I did not see what type of crate you are using and that could be a factor in what is happening. I seldom use the wire type of crates as they do not give the dog the "den" security that airline types do. The crate must be properly "fitted" to the dog as well. It should be long enough for the dog to lie down in with little extra room for "accidents"; one and a half times the adult body length is the standard we used at PetsMart.

I have a Jack Russell Terrier that goes into her crate during the day when I go to work and at night when I go to bed. Why? I don't trust her to not eat things or behave. She is fairly well adjusted otherwise. My JR mix almost never goes into a crate as she can be trusted to stay out of the trash, not potty on the floor, etc. She's also 12 years old! I have crated almost all my dogs as above until the age of about 1 year at which time they are usually more reliable, but have had a couple that could not be trusted not to get into the trash. We rarely had any problems about them going into their crates.

Obedience training will help establish you as the leader of the pack as she will learn to do as you say. That is part of what being the alpha is about. I am an advocate of postive reinforcement using treats to begin and working away from them. Also, one of the best things I got from Barbara Woodhouse's "No Bad Dogs" is the word "What". Use "What a good dog" or something similar when you praise her. Additionally, working on "tricks" adds to the image that the dog "has to do what you say". I had a dog that I taught several tricks to and then we ended up selling him to a show home, but everytime I say him, he would do all his tricks everytime I asked him. No treats, either! The trick to obedience work is using your "karate" voice. It must come from the diaphragm like a karate yell, but not as loud. Whenever you give her a command, feel it coming from the diaphragm and you will find that she will listen better. Yes, men have deeper voices and frequently will get a dog to obey better/faster. I saw that with several of my students. Firm up your voice and be CONSISTENT about commands. You and your hubby must use the same commands to mean the same thing all the time. Never put a question tone on the command, either. "Will you sit?" is less effective than "Sit!". Also, the more you can use one word commands, the quicker she will learn them.

Cleaning up after her, yes, use something like Simple Solution or Nature's Miracle and do not use a carpet cleaner that has ammonia in it. Guess what that smells like!

Bed - well, almost all mine have been allowed to sleep with me and we did not have "dominance" problems (and DO not have problems). Just now, the pup sleeps in her crate and the older dog sleeps wherever she likes. It's usually the cats that sleep with me (and one likes to sleep on top of me).

What it all boils down to is: consistent scheduling and commands and using the crate on an "as needed" basis. I have even crate trained my cats for purposes of transportation and when company comes that I prefer the cats not to get onto. Another note, whoever takes the dog to obedience class will become the "dominant" being in the dog's life. Be sure that you and your hubby both work with her on the obedience work and make sure you are working with her at least 15 minutes per day on the obedience. I read a book about obedience training that freaked me out. Can't recall the author, but she used to put her dogs on "long" downs for purposes of training. When I say "long" downs, I mean she advocated anywhere from one to three hours or more. That is not right from anyone's standpoint.

One last thing, I believe in the "stare-down". If your dog ever sits and stares at you, stare her down. In the wild, eye contact is a challenge and the one who looks away first is "submitting" to the "dominance" of the other. Oh, yeah, try to use a growly voice when "correcting" the dog. I use "no" on a long, drawn out, growly tone when I see the dog about to do something I won't approve of. I also use "Aaat" for some of the same reasons. All my dogs have learned what both terms mean and are really good at changing their minds when I use them. Well, my two cents turned into a dollar, but I hope some of this is helpful and hope no one of the other answerers is offended.

[Pam]

Ktreva, your dollar's worth of advice was a real bargain! I think your comments were all right on the mark! As a matter of fact, the shared wisdom in this particular topic is just terrific. So many good suggestions and so much encouragement. Yorkster I wish you much success with your little one. She sounds like a sweetheart. Keep giving us updates on her progress. :)

[yorkster]

Thanks Pam! She is a sweetheart of a dog, and what a face she has, which is why I have caved-in before and allowed her to do things that she shouldn't. Now that I am being more consistant about her obedience, etc. she seems to be responding in a positive way. There IS light at the end of the tunnel!
Ktreva52, thank-you for some helpful tips. About her crate: it is one of those partially enclosed types like the airlines use. It is quite large too. Someone had suggested puttung a blanket over it, and playing music if we were going to be gone. I think I will try that tomorrow night.

[Logan]

I think the best thing about Ktreva's advice is knowing that she is BACK!! :D :D :D

Welcome Home, Chris!!!! :) You might have to reintroduce yourself. It has been a LONG time since we've "seen" you!!! :D

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Yes, it is nice to hear from her, I believe it has been a long time.
Jackie

[Daisy's Mom]

Welcome back, Chris! We missed you!

[ktreva52]

Well, thanks all for the warm welcome back. For the folks that don't know me, I spent three years working at PetsMart in Indianapolis (Castleton) and was an obedience instructor there for two of those years. Prior to that, I spent 7 years working with 4-Hers on Dog Obedience and trained my first "officially obedience trained" dog over 13 years ago.

Yorkster, I just glanced at your original message and another thing struck me: your dog is Border Collie/Lab mix???? From what I have seen over the years, Border Collies are argueably (?) the most intelligent breed in existance. This is not to disparage the other breeds, but working with sheep herders in the Highlands of Scotland, they had to be bred to work sometimes totally alone and to figure out what they were supposed to do with the sheep they rounded up. At best, they still had to work at some distance from the handler and were frequently "directed" through the use of whistling. A similar situation is true of the field breeds like the Lab. You're working with one SMART dog, here. So, some long-range suggestions: first, obedience school. Very important to help establish who gets to tell whom what to do. Then, I would consider getting into agility or flyball with her as she is going to need a lot of activity that makes her use that mind. You might also look into taking her to herding trials, although AKC will not allow her to title in them, since she's a mix. However, if she clearly favors one part of the mix over the other (i.e., she looks like a Border Collie more than a Lab), you might be able to get an ILP (Indefinate Listing Privilege) number from the AKC which will require that she be spayed. Is she? Then, you would be elegible to compete for titles in everything except conformation. I'm bringing all this up because she needs a more active lifestyle to help her accept you as the leader of the pack and to socialize her and help her understand her place in this world and your home.

Daisy's Mom: Is that a picture of Daisy? How utterly adorable.

Anyway, it is really nice to be back online and back with the doggie people on this site (and the cat people, too -- can't forget the other members of the family). Hope all this helps. How big did you say that crate was?

[yorkster]

Ktreva52, the crate is very large- big enough for a quite large dog, and Scout is med. size (about 45-50 lbs.). I believe it was one of the biggest ones they had at Petsmart. Also, the obedience classes I am taking are at Petsmart in Lynnwood Wash., so I/we are probably learning things very similar to your training. As far as exercise goes, YES she is very active. Right now we play a lot of ball with her in the back yard. From the first day, she would leap into the air to catch them. We tried a frisbee with her when we saw this, but she did not seem to care for it too much- in fact she had it all chewed up by the time we were done. Agility training is something I have considered. Where could I find info about it in my area? As far as how she looks, it is maybe a bit closer to the lab in her. She is built like a B. collie, her head is definately B. collie, and she is VERY muscular and compact. Her hair is shorter black like a lab. She has white markings on her chest, neck and feet.
We are in the 'basic' obedience class right now, and so far so good. The only problem I have had with her there is that she and the other dogs bark a lot at each other- there is one dog in particular that she clashes with, another female dog who seems quite dominant (as Scout is too). What finally worked with her was a squirt-bottle. Since then she has been fine. Oh-yes, she is spayed. She was not when I got her 3 months ago, and she was 3 years old already. I don't know if that makes a difference (the fact that it was later in life). I don't know a thing about her history because she was a stray at a shelter. I do know that I love her!

[yorkster]

Ktreva- I forgot. You mentioned 'herding trials' and that sounds quite interesting. Are they always through the AKC, or is there somewhere else also? Can I find info on the internet? Thanks again.

[Daisy's Mom]

Hi Chris - no, that's not Daisy, but I have always loved that picture too :)

[ktreva52]

Well, Yorkster, you raise an interesting issue here -- technically, spaying a dog later in life is not a bad thing and beats the heck out of dealing with the estrus cycle if you are not planning to breed. I would, however, keep an eye out later on in life for cancerous tumors that might develop, especially in the mammary glands. Not to say it will happen, but usually spaying later than 6 months to a year increases the chances. At least, so I've heard.

Congratulations on getting started in obedience. I hope the instructor at PetsMart is good and being very helpful. I would talk to him/her about trading in the giant (I'm assuming) crate for a large. If you still have the receipt and it's not too "eaten", they should be willing to accomodate you.

I don't know for sure if other groups like AMBOR (American Mixed Breed something) have herding trials or not. I like to use www.askjeeves.com (http://www.askjeeves.com) for stuff like that as you can phrase your search in the form of a question and it gives you lots of options to choose from. The same with the agility. There are several sites about agilty, but I've been off-line so long, I've forgotten what some of them are. You might open that topic back up in Dog Games. We had a lot of discussion on that last August or so, but I don't know if the archives go back that far still.

As for how she looks, you could contact the AKC (I believe it's www.akc.org) (http://www.americankennelclub.org)) and request the papers for an ILP. They will require a letter from the vet listing the day of her spaying, there are forms to fill out, and you will need to send two pictures of her -- a front view and a side view. Even though her coat is more Labbie, it sounds like she's pretty Border Collie and they may well allow her an ILP. That would be fun.

As for teaching her to work with the frisbee, first, you want to teach her to hold it without chewing. The way to do this is to actually open her mouth, put the edge of the frisbee in and gently hold her mouth closed over it for a second. Then, release her mouth and take the frisbee back. The commands are "take it", "hold", and "give". Once you can get her to hold the frisbee for a while and give it back to you, you can start holding it out a bit and encourage her to "take it" such that she has to reach for it. Then, use hold and give to get her to hold it and return it. At each step of the process, LOTS of praise at what a wonderful girl she is and treats won't hurt either. Eventually, she should be willing to go after the frisbee and return it to you for the praise and treats. This is how we taught our two older dogs to retreive the dumbells for the more advanced obedience work the kids were getting involved in. Shiloh, our JR mix, was suspicious of the process at first, but once she understood what we wanted, she loved retreiving. Lacey, our cattle dog mix, on the other hand, thought it was a waste of her valuable time and Shiloh could go fetch the silly thing -- until Swiss cheese made it's way onto the dumbell. Then, suddenly, retreiving was really fascinating for Lacey. Anyway, I hope this helps and I hope you find information about the herding and agility. Check with your instructor at PetsMart about agility, she may know someone that does training in it, or look in your phone book for obedience schools. Most of them offer classes. Good luck. Sounds like you're really making progress with an active dog.

Daisy's Mom -- I LOVE Daisy's patriotic pic.

[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: ktreva52 ]

[Daisy's Mom]

LOL thanks!!! And now it is Daisy in my profile :)

[ktreva52]

She's such a cutie and what a classic Basset face. Has she stopped getting into the trash?

[yorkster]

Hi Ktreva52- Well, my dog Scout is going to graduate from obedience school next Sunday. It has really helped BOTH of us. I am thinking about taking intermediate classes after this. However, something happened when we arrived home today: I took her out right away and played a long session of ball. She went potty during this time. About 20-30 minutes AFTER we came back indoors, she wanders into the living room ands potties again! To be fair, she had been kinda at the door whining to go back out, and I ignored it because she does this all the time, and it always ends up meaning that she sees a squirrel to chase, or she expects to play ball again. She NEVER just goes out and potties. Even in the morning, when she should have to go real bad, she won't go until we start playing ball with her first. I have tried to take her out there, on her leash to her 'spot', and she just gets all excited and jumps around expecting ball. If I stay there long enough, she will settle down, but still not go- just stand there. I have tried saying 'go potty', either that or not looking at her, but nothing........When she went on the rug tonight, I actually caught her in the act for the first time. I (kinda) yelled 'NO! Bad dog!' and then toke her outside to her spot, hoping she would get the idea. When I brought her back indoors, I put her in a down-stay for quite awhile, maybe 30 minutes or so. I did not pay any attention to her during that time. She hates that too, because she is VERY attentive and likes to follow me around. I don't know if I did the right thing or not. I just kind of reacted. She has been much better since dog obedience, but this one area is still a problem. My question is (I hope you did not already cover this): Any suggestions on getting her to potty when I tell her to? I mean assuming she has to go. Or letting me know when she needs to go, and not just that she wants to play or chase something? Would it be better to take her out on her leash, or just let her go on her own? If I take her, how long should I stand there WAITING for her to go? Should I say anything, or just ignore her when she starts jumping around, expecting to play ball? I get the feeling that she is just trying to get 'her way' when she does this. Like she is thinking 'if I jump around & look cute, she will give-in and play with me'......and I have, I admit. I mean, I have to give her a lot of exercise, because she is high-energy. But I swear, she would let me stand there forever I think and not go until I play ball with her. In this area, I think she is winning............probably my fault too.

[RachelJ]

I know you were asking Ketreva, but this brings back memories when my Hannah was younger as this is just the way she was. I honestly don't know exactly how we worked it out, it just took time and lots of perseverence. The thing is we did work it out. Just had some thoughts as I read your post. You say you take her to a specific spot to go potty. This is a good strategy, but my theory is if one thing is not working, try something else. How about letting her pick *going* whereever she pleases? Also Scout has decided that going out is simply for playing ball, maybe you should not play ball every time you go out, just at her specific play times. She starts jumping up asking to play, you say, "No, you go potty". With Hannah, if she goes during the time we are out for play time and then does some serious running and jumping for the Kong, I always tell her to "Go potty" again before we go in, and 9 times out of 10, she will. Running and playing makes her need to go again, even though she may have gone 20 minutes before. As to how long you and she should stay out there waiting for her to go, that is a question I asked myself many a night in the wind and the wet and the cold. If I knew she should have to go, I usually stuck it out as long as it took. I would just keep walking her back and forth, telling her to go potty. I think keeping moving is preferable to standing in one spot. This helps on two counts. One is she may find a spot where she decides this the one she wants to go at (some dogs can be very picky about that) and the other is moving in and of itself is going to facilitate the need to go.

[yorkster]

Hi Rachel- my post was not just for Ktreva- I need all the advice I can get right now! Thanks for your suggestions! I think that maybe if I dig in my heels, and refuse to 'play ball' until she has gone, it will eventually work out. Maybe use the ball as a reward. I know she will let me stand there for a LONG time though, sometimes stubborn girl that she is- I guess I'll just have to be even more stubborn...........and yes, it's a good idea you had to let her pick her spot.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Yorkster, I can not state strongly enough that I think Scout does not understand what you expect of him in the housetraining arena. While you may have a separation anxiety issue when you are gone, it sounds like the dog goes even when you are home. The most common nonmedical reason for housesoiling is improper housetraining! Being that Scout is a rescue it could be that house breaking is a delicate subject with him.

In an earlier post you stated that you caught Scout in the act and then took him out and then put him in a down stay for 30 minutes. Disrupting the dog in the act and giving a strong verbal NO command and taking him out was sufficient. You did not need to put him in a down stay for 30 minutes on top of this. Remember that dogs do not have a concept of time. Just hearing you say NO and knowing you are displeased should of been enough. Harsh punishment may discourage your pup from illiminating at all when you are present - even outdoors!).

Since it seems your dogs housesoiling stems from incomplete house training, you might try some refresher training.

1. Keep you dog confined in a comfortable crate when you can't supervise it. Make sure the crate is large enough for the dog to sit, lay and stand in but no bigger. If your crate is bigger, partition it off with a cardboard box or something to take up the excess space. If the dog can be trusted not to soil during the night then don't crate him at night. If he does soil at night then crate him then too!

2. When you let the dog out of the crate, immediately take him out to "GO POTTY". No balls, frisbees, etc. Make sure you give lots of verbal cues to "GO POTTY". When he does then you make a fool of yourself with praise for him. Kiss his hairy lips, hug him, whatever it takes to let this dog know you are sooooooooooo haaaaaaappppppppy! Don't do anything else until the dog potties. You may need to use an extra long leash so the dog feels like he has some privacy. Give food rewards if he responds well to food. Don't do anything else until he "GOES POTTY". Use the term over and over again "GO POTTY" so Scout will associate the phrase with the action.

3. Before Ball and fun time take the dog back inside for a few minutes. This way the dog will understand that outside is potty time before play time. You may take him in for a drink of water or something and then establish going out for fun after. Do NOT put potty and play outside activities in the same context until the dog FULLY understands the phrase "GO POTTY" and will do it on command.

When I have Dixie outside and we are playing I can tell her "GO POTTY" and she immediately drops her frisbee and does what I ask her. I still praise her like crazy even though I know she understands what I'm asking her to do 100%.

4. This may be the hardest and most important step to follow through on. If Scout refuses to "GO POTTY" in a sufficient amount of time (say 3 or 4 minutes) then immediately bring him back in the house and put him back in his crate. Repeat the procedure again in about 15 minutes.

It is important that you back up to the beginning. If you think you are being harsh on him by crating him then he wins, you lose, and your the one who needs to deal with it. I personally would rather crate than have to clean up urine from a grown dog that should be trained already! After all once he is house trained you can let him out of the crate permanently!!!!!

One final thought. You should have an established schedule of knowing when your dog has to go. For instance I know that Dixie is a morning pooh dog. I make sure she goes before I leave for work. Dusty is a morning, late afternoon, and evening pooh dog. How many times a day does Scout go and what time of day is it usually? If it's morning you need to give extra time then for both pee and poop. If it's evening the extra time goes there. Have a set routine and know your dogs schedule. You will be surprised how willing your dog will be to please you, once he understands exactly what you expect! :D

[yorkster]

Hi Dixieland Dancer- You might correct about Scout not having been housebroken before. We adopted her in mid-July when she was already 3 years old. The shelter did not know anything about her, etc. because she was either a stray or was dumped at the city pound. She had also NOT been spayed at the time, and had a couple broken teeth and a few scars. She did not seem to be very happy- did not wag her tail much and all that. However, she was very responsive to attention and was very affectionate and loving with us right away. We found out after getting her home that she is an awesome ball player- catches in the air and leaps up to catch. She just lives for ball now! After about a month, she really came out of her shell. She wags her tail all the time, and does that cute 'smile' thing that dogs can do. She smiles a lot now! Obviously whoever owned her before did not take care of her at all. Poor thing.....she is sooooo sweet.
After I read your post, I took her outside and said 'go potty'. She went within a couple of minutes! She was due to go at that point, so it may have had something to do with it, but she has never gone on command before. I am hoping that because I FINALLY caught her in the act and told her NO, that she is starting to understand. Keeping my fingers crossed anyway.

[RachelJ]

Now I am dying to see a picture of Scout. She sounds so endearing and I think we are all starting to feel like we know this dear heart.

If you don't have a scanner, I would love to do the honors.

[chembear]

Hi,
I'm new here and I've read most of the posts in this thread and the other referenced thread. I think my dog also suffers with separation anxiety. I'm sure my family and I have given her very mixed signals. To make matters worse not only do I have this anxious dog, but I have two young children, 5 and 8. I've gotten pretty good at ignoring the dog when we get home but didn't know until now that I needed to also ignore her when we are getting ready to leave.

Duchess (our dog) is a Luwellyn Setter/Border Collie mix. She seems to be just fine when we leave, no barking or anything, she just looks out the window (before we started crating her). But when we come home she's going crazy. Jumping up on the window, barking, pacing from the window to the door, whining.....the whole nine yards. She usually doesn't do anything destructive but obviously she's waiting for us to return. Otherwise she's a great dog, although after reading some of this thread I can see some behaviors that show she's confused in her place in our house. She follows me everywhere...and I mean everywhere, bathroom , laundry room, etc.

My questions are:
1. How do I get my kids trained to ignore the dog when we get home and when we're ready to leave....or is it even important for them to do so?
2. Is this behavior a dominance issue? She listens to me better than anyone else in the household, she sleeps with my son and won't get on our bed unless invited. She does like to sleep on the furniture though.
3. We are planning a big move from Sacramento to Phoenix and I'm concerned about her stressing out over this as well as our being out of the house. What can I do to make the transition smooth and less stressful?

Duchess was adopted from the SPCA I think I can understand why she was surrendered. She was living in an apartment and she's a very high maintainance dog. Gotta go out and run (walks don't cut it with her) and play with other dogs. I've actually toyed with the idea of getting her a playmate...probably a retriever. I don't want to get another dog right now because of the move. Had I known we would be moving 2 months after getting Duchess I would have waited to get a dog. But now that I have her and have fallen head over heals for her I want to make this thing work.

I do plan on obedience training but I want to wait until after the move.

Thaks to anyone who's read to the end of this one.

Cindy

[yorkster]

Oh Rachel........that would be great! I don't have a scanner, and wouldn't know how to post the pic anyway. I am almost done with a role of film I have been using for 'my animals' (2 cats, 1 dog). When it's done, we will take it from there. I guess I should mail the picture to you? Thank-you!

[yorkster]

Chemmbear- as soon as I posted my reply to Rachel, there you were. I KNOW what you're going through! I see your dog is also half Border Collie like mine, and that is probably where all that energy comes from. I know what you mean too about a walk not being enough- does not even come close to being enough for my dog either. The good thing is she will play ball forever, so that gets a good work out several times a day. Does you dog play ball?
There are a lot of good and knowledgable dog people here that will have some good advice. I'm not sure I would know the answers to your questions concerning your childeren, etc., so I don't want to say anything and give you the wrong advice- I am still a novice at this! Obviously I have a lot to learn myself still. The only thing I can say for sure is that a good dog obedience class will help a lot. Good luck, and I am sure that Ktreva, Rachel, Carrie, Aly, and the rest will have some good advice soon for you.

[TheAntiPam]

Welcome Chembear/Cindy! I hope you like this place as much as I do.

Hey Everyone, be nice to our new friend here! She and those kids of hers are part of my fambly. Well, ok, you can give her a bit of trouble ;)

[chembear]

Talk about feeling welcomed. :) Thanks Pamster...er...TheAntiPam.
Yorkster, Duchess does not like to play ball...unless it's in the backyard and there's not enough room for her to really get a good run. She loves to chase dogs. We go to the dog park as often as I can get my butt there......I'm working up to every day. It just seems the more she gets to go to the dog park the more she wants to go. Everyone I've talked to about Border Collies has said they need a job.....I'm not sure I've understood what that is. I'm very interested in getting her into agility....I think that would very much help her with her anxiety and use up some of that extra energy.

Cindy

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Hi Cindy, Welcome to PetTalk, I think you have a wonderful active dog there. I won't give you any advice as I'm low on the totem pole as far as making my two Schnauzer terrors do what they are supposed to do. :D
Perry our male does have separation anxiety to a degree, but all he does is pull the pillows out of the dog house and put them in the sun so they can lay on them. :) Good luck with your pup, I'm sure the people on here will have excellent advice for you.
Jackie

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by chembear:
<STRONG>My questions are:
1. How do I get my kids trained to ignore the dog when we get home and when we're ready to leave....or is it even important for them to do so?
2. Is this behavior a dominance issue? She listens to me better than anyone else in the household, she sleeps with my son and won't get on our bed unless invited. She does like to sleep on the furniture though.
3. We are planning a big move from Sacramento to Phoenix and I'm concerned about her stressing out over this as well as our being out of the house. What can I do to make the transition smooth and less stressful?

</STRONG>

Hi Cindy, Hopefully your new place has more room for your high energy dog to run. Working off the excess energy is important to the overall health and well being of the dog!

To attempt to answer your questions:

1. It is important for the family to be on the same page in training the dog. At ages 5 and 8 your kids are old enough to understand the dog needs to realize this is not a big thing when we leave or come home. Give them some kind of incentive not to acknowledge the dog. Make it a game of Who speaks to the dog first. The first one too is the loser. Perhaps come up with a different kind of game but don't reprimand the kids or they could begin to resent the dog.

2. While some dominance issues are related to seperation anxiety, I believe the main reason a dog displays seperation anxiety is simply because the dog loves the owner too much and is lacking the independence they need to cope with being alone. You indicated the dog follows you everywhere. This is the typical scenerio of a dog suffering from seperation anxiety. Most dogs that suffer from this have had some emotional trauma in their past. The trauma could be seperation from mom or littermates too early, lack of human contact during the impressionable first 16 weeks of life, or getting attached to someone and having them disappear. In my Dixie's case of separation anxiety the trauma was my husband being hospitalized when she was 12 weeks old. He was in the hospital for 28 days and I was spending a lot of time there. Dixie went and stayed with close friends of ours (they have her littermate) for a week and then came home after the crisis was over. I know she was extremely confused but I had no control over what was going on. I let her get overly attached to me by trying to make up for my extended absenses. I actually was the main contributor to her problem. :( Therefore, I had to be the main contributor to her healing. It was not easy but we did overcome.

Ignoring the dog before you leave and after you come home for 10 or 15 minutes is a valuable part of the treatment. In addition you need to get the dog to stay in another room when you do certain things. You can give them a stuffed kong, put them on a down stay (you will learn this in obedience classes) or have someone else play with them. When you come back in the room don't make a fuss but calmly acknowledge the dog after you see the dog is calm and not stressed out because you left.

3. I don't see why your move should cause undue stress on the dog if you take certain steps to make sure the dog is safe and secure. First make sure you let the dog have as many potty breaks during the trip as necessary. Exercise adequately and offer water (don't overdo here) and give treats. Traveling always makes our family want to snack in the car more. Take healthy snacks such as carrots, etc. Make sure the dog has enough room to be comfortable and with enough personal space if possible.

In the new home establish the dogs spot as soon as possible. As long as you are there and no major earth shattering thing happens the dog should care less if you live in California or Pheonix. As long as you are there! :D

[chembear]

Thanks Dixieland Dancer (jeez I Hope I got that right),
That makes perfect sense. We got Duchess from the SPCA. She is about 1 1/2 years old and hadn't been spayed (of course she is now). She's had at least two owners before we got her (I have no plans of getting rid of her, it's just not an option) and perhaps much of her behavior is about being abandoned. Since day one she's latched onto me. The rest of the family is like gravy to her. In the beginning I think she merely tolerated the children, liked my hubby but adored me. Frankly I liked the attention. :) Now it's a nuisance. I trip over her while cleaning house. I gotta get her to move all the time to vacuum. She will lay right in the way in the kitchen.

I'll start today with having her be in another room while I'm cleaning. Or perhaps let her stay outside a while. She's actually quite pathetic. She's got the saddest puppydog eyes when she knows I'm not pleased with her behavior, then of course I cave-in. From now on I am a rock....ok a sand stone. :)

Cindy

[ktreva52]

Well, let's see if I can answer some questions as well as Dixieland Dancer. First, Chembear, WELCOME! It's a fun and cool site to learn all sorts of stuff about your dog and your interaction with her. One thing I did not see in your posts was a crate. Does she have one? If not, it might be worth the time and expense to get one before you move. It will be HER room (no children inside, please) and would be a good thing to have for the move. Once she gets acclimated to it, she can ride in it on the move and you can make frequent stops as Dixieland Dancer suggested. Are you planning to stop at a motel on the way? They'll be more inclined to allow her to stay in the room if you have a crate. Otherwise, they might not allow her inside. It is also a good way to help break that running around when you get home. It is difficult for a 5 year old to avoid a Llewellyn Setter/Border Collie mix simply due to size (unless the child is very tall). Thus, that child will lose almost all the "ignore" games you might come up with. Also, it will allow her to be somewhere where you aren't and allow you to do whatever you need to without her underfoot. I don't ordinarily recommend the wire crates, but in this case, it might be the better option. That way, she can watch you from her "room" and be less anxious about being separated from you.

As for Scout, get that dog into flyball!! Really, it is better to learn to control the playing -- you, not her. When you are about ready to go inside, take the ball and tell her to potty (go potty, whatever the command you want to use). Take her to her spot and just plan to be there a while. She should receive one command and then be ignored until she responds as requested. Then, a toss of the ball toward the house and lots of praise and inside you go. I have always been one to let the dogs out on a tie-out if there's no fence or just out if there is a fence and they don't get back in until I'm sure (either by observance or after a good while) they've gone. I'm still having some problem with my 1 year old Jack Russell Terrier -- she likes to go first and request out after. I'm getting better at reading her, but we're still working on it. If necessary, put Scout in her crate for about 15 minutes when you first come back inside and then run her out to potty before she gets freedom again. Dixieland Dancer has another thing I think you need to consider -- a consistent schedule. I'm sure they covered that at PetsMart, but when you know something is going in (food, water, treats, etc.) you have a fair idea of when it's going to come out and you can plan for that. Mine go out before breakfast and I offer about 20 minutes after. If they don't go out, Lys (the JRT) goes into her crate and Shiloh (JRT cross) gets to sleep on my bed and I go off to work. Then, when I get home Shiloh goes out on the tie-out and when she gets done, Lys goes out, but does not come out of her crate until I'm ready to put her out. Usually, Shiloh likes to go out again after Lys, just to hang out and watch the neighborhood. No big deal. Still, we have a fairly consistent schedule and the girls can pretty well accomodate it. The only thing that ruins it is heavy rain -- Shiloh HATES rain and will hold her potty session until the rain goes away or at least slackens a LOT.

Anyway, I hope that helps some. Email me if I can be more help or more specific, or, I'll check back and see what's happening here.

[yorkster]

Ktreva- Well, rain is always a given here (Seattle), but Scout LOVES to be wet, so it is not a problem! It is a hassle for me sometimes though, like when I am dressed and ready to go somewhere, then have to go out and play ball, etc.
Anyway, Scout 'graduated' from basic obedience last Sunday. Yeah!!! I am thinking about taking the next level, which gets into agility and something called 'clicker training'- does it work? I had never heard of it bedore. She is doing much better about not going potty on the floor/rug ever since I caught her. Now, I take her outside and say 'go potty', and when she is done, THEN I will play ball. Once in awhile she will not go, so I take her back in the house and there is no ball until she goes. She seems to be getting it finally. One thing though: she has gone a couple times in her crate lately. What's that about? No more accidents in the house, but now her crate....... I am quite sure now that she never was housebroken when I got her. Poor thing- she was 3 yrs. old. I should add too that she is never in her crate for longer than 4-5 hours at a time, and usually less. Thanks for all your advice so far!

[RachelJ]

I think I would be inclined to check to see if she had a urinary track infection. They can be sneaky sometimes. It wouldn't hurt to rule this out.

[yorkster]

Rachel, I was just wondering about that earlier tonight. I will make an apt. with the vet tomorrow. There are times that she seems to be able to hold it for quite awhile (like overnight), but if they are sneaky.....I guess you never know.

[ktreva52]

Yorkster -- Congratulations on your graduation from obedience! A fantastic accomplishment for you and Scout. I'm with Rachel, it can't hurt to have her checked for a urinary tract infection and you might ask the vet to check her for diabetes at the same time. On the off chance he/she detects bladder stones (one of mine had this diagnosis about 6 years ago), go with the prescription diet for a couple of months and then move her to a GOOD senior diet like Authority (PetsMart's house brand).

Liking to be wet is the Labbie in her. They love water and will take it in any form. It sucks when you're all dressed up and they come in and shake on you, but it beats having a wussy dog like mine that hates to go out in it at all.

If you can get into that advanced class and work on agility, I think that would be great and Scout will probably love it! Remember, this dog has more brains than she knows what to do with and the more advanced work will give her something to think about. And the activity level will satisfy her need for doing. Keep up the good work, sounds like you two are really getting it together. Good luck at the vet's.

[Dixieland Dancer]

About Scout going in the crate, two things come to mind.

1. The crate may be too big and needs to partitioned off. There should not be extra space in the crate during housetraining. Usually (like almost 99% of the time) a dog will not soil in their sleeping quarters. If there is room for Scout to "GO" and still not be near the "MESS" then the crate is too big. After housetraining is complete you can take the partition out of the crate and let him have the extra space when crated.

2. If the crate is not to big and the dog is soiling it could be medical. Taking Scout to the vet is advisable.

Congratulations on completing basic obedience. Continue in more classes so you can continue to bond with Scout. The most important part of any training is to reward desired behavior and don't reward unwanted behavior. If you follow this method you can do anything with your dog.

Best of Luck!

[yorkster]

Thanks to all of you. She has a vet. apt. for Monday morn. Have good weekends everyone! Oh, one more thing: Rachel, I get my film back tomorrow, and will send one or two your way. BYE for now.

[RachelJ]

Great, I'll be watching the mail for them, and I'll scan as many as you want.

When Ktreva mentioned diabetes, it reminded me of when Hannah was a pup. As practically everyone on the site knows she held the title of being the hardest puppy ever to housebreak. I work from home and had the strategy to take her out every hour and then gradually lenghten the interval as she matured. I kept her gated in the kitchen so she could romp and play, rather than crating her. I'd come to get her after the hour and there would be a puddle on the floor. Surely a two month old puppy should be able to last one hour without peeing. I was certain that I had a diabetic puppy! I consulted the vet and he did not feel it was necessary to test her, didn't think that was the problem. I was really upset, because now I knew I had a diabetic puppy who wasn't getting any treatment. Of course it turned out the vet was right, and she was just one of those puppies who was really into drinking a lot of water, and then the puppy that couldn't hold it for an hour became the puppy who wouldn't go when we went outside. (It became difficult to judge how often was enough and how often was too much). There were times I thought I had a dog that would never be housebroken.It was a long ordeal but eventually we accomplished our goal. Hence I preach patience and preseverance.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Rachel,
Using the crate would of helped the process immensely. I have puppies thoroughly housebroken by 10-12 weeks using the crate. Once they are housebroken they aren't crated any longer. The kitchen is too big an area to deal with during housebreaking.

The major reason dogs take sooooo long to house train is because they don't understand completely what the owner expects. If you ever have to go through it again you may want to consider the crate training method. It is wonderful and less stress on the dog in the long run. And not a huge one for a little puppy!

[ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: Dixieland Dancer ]

[Pam]

Dixieland Dancer I have to agree with you. I have done it both ways and the crate makes it so much easier! I never had a dog mess in the crate, although I have heard that some have. That's probably because the crate was too big. The breeder who sold us Bella actually had a little "daily schedule" typed up for us. It included meals, time to go potty, time in the crate, time for play, etc.

We have continued to use the crate for Bella during the day if we go out because she still chews things she shouldn't occasionally. :eek: This past week was a milestone. I decided to give it a try and let her loose in the house all week long and when we got home the house was in one piece! My little girl is growing up! ;)

[ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: Pam ]

[yorkster]

Okay.....went to the vet and found out that everything is A-OK with Scout. At first I was disapointed (not that I wanted anything to really be wrong w/ her), but I felt it would be kinda nice if there was a real understandable reason for her 'accidents'. Now I have had some time to think about it, and decided I need to look at it a bit differently. Like maybe the glass is half full instead of half empty. Meaning: I have only had her since early July. She obviously had not been potty-trained before. She had not been spayed. She was already 3 yrs. old. She was skinny and quite underweight. She had clearly NEVER been around cats before, and thought they were to chase/catch. She had also been at least neglected, if not abused (she still acts like it sometimes when she THINKS she has been bad)- She will run and hide for NO reason at all, with her tail between her legs. I think that she has come a long way already! Passing dog obedience, potty-accidents are more & more infrequent, gets along well with my ***cats*** (a big one!), and most of all she seems to get happier everyday!!! Right now, as I am writing this, she is curled-up at my feet, just chilling. It is actually getting close to her bed time: if we don't go up to bed by about 10:00 pm, she sneaks away and goes upstairs to bed (sometimes ON THE bed). It's the only time she will be comfortable about not being in the same room with us all the time. She is my baby-girl, and I Love her!
I want to thank EVERYONE for their advice and support! Meanwhile, Scout & I will keep working on her 'potty issues' and separation anxiety. Next week I am signing-up for intermediate dog obedience that includes some agility. Yay!!!
PS-
Oh-yeah, I think I mentioned this already, but her and my cats are getting along soooo good. Tonight she even shared a treat with one of my cats! The other cat is taking a bit more time to come around, but Scout REALLY wants to be friends.

[aly]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
How did I miss this topic for so long???
I just caught up on all the posts, and am about to fall asleep since I stayed up so late to read them!!! I have a lot of comments and input on all the posts, but some of them were from so long ago, I'll probably leave those alone. Anyway, I got so tired reading all of this that I'll have to post my reply tomorrow, hehe! Just wanted to let you know yorkster that I'm sorry I didn't follow up sooner. My head must be in the clouds lately :eek:

[RachelJ]

Yorkster, I do think that the lack of medical problems is a good thing. If you hadn't of had it checked out, you would always wonder. And the glass is half full, or maybe even three-quarters full. I think if you just keep doing what you've been doing, and make sure you know whether she goes when she is outside, the accidents will continue to decrease and you will have a completely housetrained dog one of these months. And then you will be sooo happy.

Last night I let my dogs out, and went back in the kitchen and three minutes later I hear my husband letting them back in. I told him, "They don't *go* that fast!" I put them out again and told them to *go potty* and sure enough, each of them pooped. After dealing with a difficult to housebreak dog, you develop a sixth sense about it. :rolleyes:

[ktreva52]

Yorkster -- Congratulations on a clean bill-of-health for Miss Scout. I understand your thought that if it were attributable to some medical problem, there would be medication that would help fix it and it would be solved. BUT, you are giving us a fabulous report about her improving and getting along better with the cats and going to bed on her own, so you must be doing the right things. This is one of those "time will heal all problems" things and you are seeing the effects of that. She will continue to improve and I think you'll find she'll really enjoy the intermediate obedience and agility training. She's learning the "rules" and will really be a great doggie when the light bulb clicks on and she's really got it all down pat. Keep praising her when she does well and try to just ignore the "mistakes". Just make sure you clean them up with something like "Simple Solution" (I like the yellow label cat strength one) and not a regular carpet cleaner. Most of them have ammonia in them and would make her more inclined to continue to use the inside if you use them.

I guess the easiest way to think of it is that you have an overly large "puppy" and act accordingly. If she had never been taught all this, and it's entirely possible she was never an indoor dog before, then, she has little idea what is expected. But, it really sounds like you're getting a handle on things and are making tremendous strides in getting her housetrained. Next July you'll look back on this and wonder how you could ever think she wasn't the best dog in existance! Keep us posted on her progress.