Phoenix&Nakita - *Update Sept.20th*Feedback please..

[Russian Blue]

I would love for people who have been through cat introduction to provide some comments on our current situation. I'll try to summarize as best as I can.

Nakita has listened to the noise in the above bedroom with a curious nature. Phoenix has meowed a few times and Nakita also looks interested but not upset. I've rubbed both cats down so they get each other's scent. We decided to introduce them today since Phoenix and Nakita adjusted so well to our house on Saturday.

We built a mesh screen that divided the 2 rooms upstairs (our upstairs area is a loft) and Rob stayed on one side of the divider with Phoenix and I stayed with Nakita on the other side. Nakita went up on her own time and we spent a good 40 minutes upstairs. At first, both cats put there backs up and had *poofed* tails, but no growling or hissing. We gave them both treats and Nakita backed up a bit to observe, Phoenix just wanted more treats and to play. :) After awhile, Nakita approached the barrier and hissed once when Phoenix approached the screen. Phoenix then sat down. Nakita then went back downstairs and quickly returned. Again, only one hiss from Nakita and Phoenix sat down again.

I think we'll have these 'screened' meetings once a day for the next week. I think it will go well, we'll just take it slow. I was quite impressed at Nakita's reaction and I think she was just telling Phoenix who was boss. Once Nakita came back downstairs she returned to her old self, she's still following her normal day to day schedule. Phoenix honestly just wanted to play with Nakita the whole time. :)

For the experts, was this a good first introduction? Should I make the 'screened' meetings a regular part of our daily routine? Nakita came upstairs both times on her own today. She also ate treats and washed herself during this process as well. When I started making dinner right after this meeting, Nakita was totally normal and went on with her day. Phoenix continued to play upstairs.

Would love some feedback since I've never done this. Thanks so much guys - I just need a little handholding to get me through this since I want the best for all involved. ;)

[catmandu]

I think that you are on the right track.
I think that the most common mistake is to try and rush things.
Just imagine how you would feel if Nakita brought another lady home.
I think that a slow gradual approach will work.
If you pet Nakita more and ignore Phoenix a bit , then Phoenix will look to Nakita for friendship.
There are very few Cats like Scrappy 2, who just made everyone his pal from day 1.
We wish you the best of luck, and hope we see some Dynamic Duo Photos soon.

[sasvermont]

Well, it sounds normal to me. Some cats need more time than others....and no sense ticking them off early on. My sense is that Nakita needs to know that she is #1. I would pay lots of attention to her....telling her that she is your best/favorite kitty......(then of course, tell the other one the same thing ;) )

Keep us posted.....take your time.

It took me one year to get my bunnies to fall in love! Yes, one year and two vet visits due to bites!

Good luck! And take pictures! :p

[RedHedd]

Sounds right on course to me. Only one hiss? No growling or swatting? Good! You're doing it right to do it so slowly and give them a chance to get used to each others scents. Phoenix sitting down is a sign of submission - that's a smart kitty you have there! Nakita is top cat - Phoenix is invading her territory. Slow is good. We'll expect some togetherness pictures in a month or so. My two are FINALLY getting snuggly after 3.5 years :rolleyes:

[krazyaboutkatz]

It sounds like you're doing everything right and in your case it's good to take things more slowly since Nakita isn't used to being with other cats. The screen idea is also great because then they can see each other as well as smell each other. I look forward to seeing many pictures of the 2 of them together soon. Good luck.:)

[jenluckenbach]

Sounds fine!

If you pet Nakita more and ignore Phoenix a bit , then Phoenix will look to Nakita for friendship.

PURR-fect advice! :D

Just remember that even though there is no hissing now doesn't mean there won't be any later. When Phoenix can actually come up and TOUCH Nakita you'll here a bit more complaining. ;)

[Russian Blue]

How are the intos going???

I let Nakita and Phoenix meet, face to face with no barrier, on Saturday for the first time. Here's a summary. I'd love some feedback and anything I can do to get Nakita more comfortable with Phoenix. I've been told to just let them work it out but it's hard seeing Nakita so anxious every time she sees Phoenix. :(


- Since last Sunday, we have had meetings between Phoenix and Nakita upstairs with a mesh divider (plus we have Rescue Remedy and Feliway in the house)
- Phoenix (12 weeks old) would just want to play - Nakita would stay back and hiss once when they first met
- by Thursday they were eating on either side of the mesh screen - Nakita still very cautious of Phoenix
- Nakita has kept to her normal routine - doesn't look stressed at all, plays, eats, sleeps all the same on the main floor - even when she hears Phoenix meowing or playing upstairs


Saturday

- this morning we had the first face to face meeting with no barrier
- Nakita hissed or growled at Phoenix if she came to close, but Phoenix learned fast to give her a wide clearance
- Phoenix didn't seem to pay attention to Nakita, instead she played and explored the house while Nakita watched from the sidelines

- since this mornings meeting went so well, Phoenix came down at dinner time as well
-again, Phoenix almost ignored Nakita the whole time, giving her a wide clearance but the odd time would run past - then Nakita would hiss/growl but not move.
-Rob sat down next to Nakita on the floor, but at the same time Phoenix came running up on the other side of Rob
- not sure if Nakita's view was blocked and she couldn't keep an eye on Phoenix but Nakita flew down Rob's side and chased Phoenix (full menacing growl and jumped towards Phoenix but didn't make contact) approx. 3 metres out of the kitchen and then Nakita ran upstairs to hide under the bed :(
- they were separated for the night

Sunday

- Phoenix come down for most of the day
- of course, she just wants to play but Nakita always hissed/growled if she approached
- Nakita was on the end of the bed and Phoenix jumped at the head of the bed - Phoenix, again looking like she was playing in the sheets jumped towards Nakita and Nakita let out a huge hiss/growl but no attack
- Nakita again, retreated upstairs
- Phoenix didn't seem phased by this
- they were separated in the afternoon, and both went to sleep
- at dinner they were introduced again, this time Nakita was on top of the cat condo and Phoenix avoided her
- Phoenix fell asleep on the radiator, Nakita walked up to her cautiously but Phoenix woke up and both cats became tense, I separated them
- again, both cats were seperated for the night
- once separated, Nakita becomes her old self, playing, eating, purring

Any feedback guys? Should I just let them wonder about and figure things out for themselves? I'm not worried about Phoenix, she doesn't see to care since she just has one thing on her mind * Let's Play!* ;) I'm just worried about Nakita since she will just stay in one corner and watch. I don't want her to be stuck in a corner and won't go eat or use the litter box when Phoenix is around.

I'm sure they will figure it out and it will take time - it's only been two days of free roaming - but it's so hard watching Nakita hiss/growl when I've never seen her do this in her life. I actually was emotional on Saturday because I brought Phoenix in to *help* Nakita, not make it worse. How long would you allow this to continue before becoming concerned?

[sasvermont]

Well, this sounds as though things are running smoothly. It takes time. It could go on like this forever or you can just bite the bullet and let them alone to work it out. It doesn't sound as though either kitty will fight the other one until death. I would be tempted to let them at each other all day long and keep them apart, if necessary, at night, so that you could get some sleep!

I have found that by playing with both cats at the same time, with a very exciting toy, they sorta learn to "share"...taking turns swatting at the toy.... a fishing pole thingie is what I have in mind.....something that they both cannot resist playing with.......

It sounds as though things are fine there.....good job!

[jenluckenbach]

all seems Perfectly normal!


Nakita flew down Rob's side and chased Phoenix (full menacing growl and jumped towards Phoenix but didn't make contact) approx. 3 metres out of the kitchen and then Nakita ran upstairs to hide under the bed
Here Nakita is teaching Phoenix that Rob is HER'S! The fact that she had no physical contact with Phoenix shows it was just a lesson.

- Phoenix fell asleep on the radiator, Nakita walked up to her cautiously but Phoenix woke up and both cats became tense, I separated them

Part 1 is good. Nakita initiated going up to Phoenix. BUT I would not have seperated them at that moment. Let them interact next time.

_________________


I would keep allowing Phoenix out shile you are there to supervise, and seperate when you are away or asleep. Phoenix seems to be showing no signs of wanting to be dominant, which is good. Nakita will adjust. I guarrentee it! :D

[Russian Blue]

Thanks for the feedback! ;)


Nakita will adjust. I guarrentee it! :D

Today, all Nakita did was growl and sit higher up from Phoenix. My concern comes when they meet face to face on the floor level. Today that happened and both their back went up with a death stare from Nakita. :rolleyes:

Right now, I can't see how Nakita is going to get over this and I hate this hierarchy posturing. I just don't want to see this lead to a full blown fur fight.

[catmandu]

I remember when Pouncer used to chase Scrappy around and hiss and swat at him.
And yet they became the Very Soul of Cat Friendship, the Veritable Damon and Phythias of the Cat World.
I think that Nakita and Phoenix will grow to be friends, it will take time as Nakita is so used to being THE CAT!!!!

[RedHedd]

Thanks for the feedback! ;)
Right now, I can't see how Nakita is going to get over this and I hate this hierarchy posturing. I just don't want to see this lead to a full blown fur fight. Nakita will get over it - it will take time. Mitzi was like this when I brought Mishi in. They were fine after a few weeks of supervised meetings. Hang in there. If they're like my two, in three years you'll be posting cuddle pics! :p

[rosethecopycat]

You are doing good.

Nakita is acting like my Bella does with the foster kittens.
I don't think you'll arrive at a fur fight, as adults don't tend to beat up kittens that bad.
The slower the better with integration, have you tried a playpen (cage) for the kitten in plain sight, in the middle of the room?
You can give Nakita all the attention, while she doesn't feel threatened by Phoenix coming too close. Don't worry about the baby, nothing really offends them, they are very resilient. You can give her affection, in another room, away from Miss Nakita.

They will come around, it usually takes mine a couple weeks to relax around new kittens.

:)

[Russian Blue]

Hang in there. If they're like my two, in three years you'll be posting cuddle pics! :p


3 Years?!?! :eek: Ill really be gray then, better get the hair colouring kit. ;)


The slower the better with integration, have you tried a playpen (cage) for the kitten in plain sight, in the middle of the room?
You can give Nakita all the attention, while she doesn't feel threatened by Phoenix coming too close

That's exactly the problem that is happening. I go to play or talk to Nakita and Phoenix comes running with me which makes things tense. I'll have to see if I can construct something like that. Thanks for the idea!

Yesterday was the first time I saw Phoenix trying 'push' Nakita's limits or simply she was playing. Nakita was trying to eat (her food is temporarily beside the couch) and Phoenix would jump on the couch and tower over her. This is the first video, which was the calm before the storm. After this video Phoenix acted like she was going to jump on Nakita, Nakita growled loudly then moved away.

Here's the video: Nakita & Phoenix (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v86/syyren/Phoenix/?action=view&current=PhoenixSept10-11010.flv)

[smokey the elder]

Years ago, I got Mobius when I had Smokey the Elder. I didn't have anywhere to isolate the kitten who was 4 months old at the time. I just kept a wary eye on them and the squirt bottle handy if there ever was any serious fights. There was much growling, hissing and posturing on Smokey's part, for a couple of weeks. Then one night I got home, and they were arm-in-arm cuddling on the couch! Someplace I have a film pic that I should scan in if I can ever find it.

There is hope for even a princess to make friends. Just give it time. It sounds like it's actually going OK.

[sasvermont]

I promise it will change.

Right now I have four. Juni and Miley don't like each other. They fight when I am around...jealous I suppose. Every now and then I find them grooming each other. Go figure. :rolleyes:

[Barbara]

With Filou and Tigris I have made the experience "ignoring" "fighting" "cuddling"
They ignored each other for one week (and we did no separation), then one day there was the big noisy catfight (but no blood spilled ;)) and then they stayed in each others arms and paws for years until they became fully grown and came back to the catfighting ;)
But there still is grooming and cuddling.
I think it looks purrfect- Mommy should stop to worry ;)

[kimlovescats]

They will be fine! Don't worry! Before long, Nakita will decide that having a little sister can be really cool! ;)

[rosethecopycat]

[QUOTE=Russian Blue]3 Years?!?! :eek: Ill really be gray then, better get the hair colouring kit. ;)



That's exactly the problem that is happening. I go to play or talk to Nakita and Phoenix comes running with me which makes things tense. I'll have to see if I can construct something like that. Thanks for the idea!

Yesterday was the first time I saw Phoenix trying 'push' Nakita's limits or simply she was playing. Nakita was trying to eat (her food is temporarily beside the couch) and Phoenix would jump on the couch and tower over her. This is the first video, which was the calm before the storm. After this video Phoenix acted like she was going to jump on Nakita, Nakita growled loudly then moved away.


Yes, kittens are rude. I have 3 that I'm trying to keep away from Bella and Malfi, at least at mealtimes. They are like little steamrollers. At least, they are not offended either, when they get pushed away. They forgive you, the adults can hold a grudge, like Bella. :eek:

[Russian Blue]

:eek: Did I really see that with my own eyes?!? :eek: Yep, caught it with the camera earlier today! :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/syyren/Phoenix%202006/PhoenixNakTogetherPana.jpg

Only 11 days into the process and I think the obstacles are slowly starting to come down. Don't mind the green floors - previous owners painted them with outdoor paint ( :rolleyes: ) and they will be the last things to be replaced on our long renovation list. ;)

I wanted to thank everyone in this thread for the 'hand holding' - Catmandu, Sasvermont, RedHedd, KAK, Jen, Smokey The Elder, Kimlovescats, Barbara, Rosethecopycat!!!!! What would I have done without you guys? Your posts kept me sane through this cat introduction process. It's not over yet, but it's a start! Woohoo...

And right now, Nakita is sleeping on the computer monitor and Phoenix is sleeping in the cat condo right behind me!! :D Maybe now I can finally get some sleep.....

[Vermontcat]

Finally pictures of Nakita and Phoenix together! :D
They are two of the cutest little meatloaf kitties I have ever seen.
Don't worry, you are doing fine, pretty soon you will have photos of them touching each other and maybe even cuddling! :)
Give them both hugs and kisses from me. :D

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

I've been following the whole process but haven't had much posting time. SO good to see the two adorable meatloaves within shouting distance of each other. :D I think you did everything right - going slow, the mesh screen between them, etc. They WILL become friends and the next pics we'll see are either snuggle pics or Nakita giving the brat a bath. ;) :D

[Edwina's Secretary]

Edwina and Eddie have never cuddled (that they will let us see anyway.... ;) ) but they always seem to be napping in the same room.

I consider that good enough! Darn good really...and so fast with your girls!

[kimlovescats]

YIPPEE! Things are going great! Congratulations! :D

[jenluckenbach]

Don't worry about the green floors, they show off Nakita's coloring splendidly! :D

I remember how hard the first introductions were. they get MUCH easier! ;)

Have a good rest. Kitten play time is just around the corner. (LOL)

[krazyaboutkatz]

I'm glad to hear the great update and I'm sure that Nakita's curiosity will get the best of her and she'll love having a little sister.:)

[Russian Blue]

On Saturday we decided to switch the cats. I moved Nakita's food/litter upstairs and Phoenix's food/litter downstairs. Phoenix stays glued to my side so I thought placing Nakita upstairs would give her some downtime if she needed it. Plus, we sleep upstairs so Nakita stays with us for the night while Phoenix is kept in her own room.

Since that time, Nakita has barely come downstairs. She tries to come down 2/3 times a day but as soon as she sees Phoenix she will run back upstairs. This current arrangement does not provide much opportunity for Nakita to interact with Phoenix - and that's what I am concerned about.

Phoenix is quite respectful of Nakita's space. If she sees Nakita, she will first run up to her - she wants to be near Nakita. But Nakita will hiss/growl and Phoenix will walk away. Phoenix has run after Nakita once or twice, but not at all in a threatening manner. She just wants to follow her but Nakita doesn't like it at all and see's it as a threatening action.

One thing that continues to happen is that Nakita will want to come downstairs to go on the window. Nakita jumps up and then Phoenix wants to be with her also. So Phoenix will jump up, Nakita will hiss/growl and Phoenix will sit or lie down next to her. You can see Nakita doesn't want to be that close but Phoenix just wants a feline friend and sort of 'forces' herself on Nakita. ;) Right after this picture was taken, Phoenix layed down and both cats closed their eyes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/syyren/PhoenixNakWindowsmall.jpg

Instead, while I'm at home should I close off the upstairs and bring Nakita downstairs so she interacts with Phoenix? Then at night return to our nightly routine? I feel if I don't do this we will have one cat on the upper floor and one cat on the lower floor with no interaction. This will make for a *very* long introduction period.

What would you do? Leave the current arrangement or start bringing Nakita down for day sessions with Phoenix? :confused: I'll be returning to work soon so I want to feel comfortable leaving them together but I don't want Nakita to be hiding the whole day upstairs either. :confused:

[K & L]

We're so different from most people. We seclude new cats until we're sure there are no health issues, then we just let them out among the rest. We've had some hissing and running, but never any major problems. Seems this has worked best for us. I know it's not the standard, but it's never failed us.

[ramanth]

3 Years?!?! :eek: Ill really be gray then, better get the hair colouring kit. ;)
It only took Zam and Logan about a year to two years to start cuddling. Now they groom each other, wrestle, and cuddle constantly.

Sounds like Nakita and Phoenix will be pals in no time. :)

[catmandu]

Soon they will at last be comfortable with each other, if not buddy buddy.
I know that it took HH Lady Edwina Rose and Eddie some time before that happened.
Actually it has taken the Princess 10 yeras before she was comfortable on the bed, and she still hisses at JJJ3, and The Kitten Trio.
I hope that you have Cuddling Dynamic Duo Photos soon.

[sasvermont]

I would try rewarding Nakita when she is being good to Phoenix and not acting so huffy around her. Then say..."be a good girl".....when she is not being so good. With a tone of disappointment, if you will.

Sometimes when Miley starts her hissing at Juni and growling etc. I just say, "oh Miley, stop" "be a good girl".....she will calm down. Its as though she needs protection from Juni and my words comfort her. I suspect what is really happening is that Miley wants me all to herself - not wanting to share me with Juni or the others. So by being obnoxious to the others, she gets my attention.

I think the introduction sounds normal so far, to me. The fact that there has not been fur flying - is a great sign. There may be a time, when they turn on each other...... sometimes feeding them together will bring them closer too...sometimes, not.

Have you tried playing with them both at the same time? With a great toy? Maybe they will get the hang of bumping into each other without incident!
:eek:

[Barbara]

If they sleep in the close presence of each other that would be a good sign to my opinion.
I think I would now no longer make a lot of circumstances.
Give Nakita all the attention she needs. Phoenix is less complicated she will see that she gets what she needs.

Tigris sometimes bullies my little dainty Filou (you know , Momma's boy ;) ) and I always go to Filou and comfort him telling him he's the sweetest etc. etc. because I know he needs it. Tigris is just a big friendly hunk of a cat and even after you told him to leave Filou he jumps up and cuddles with you- so I care for the more sensitive and love the other one nevertheless :D

[shais_mom]

It only took Zam and Logan about a year to two years to start cuddling. Now they groom each other, wrestle, and cuddle constantly.

Sounds like Nakita and Phoenix will be pals in no time. :)
and they are MOM AND SON! course they don't know that! ;)
I was kind of like K & L - course I probably shouldn't have been. I picked Kloe up (2 years ago today :)) and took her to the vet - brought her home - kept her sequestered in the bathroom when I was at work and sleeping b/c she was so little but other then that she was out with the 'big girls'. Kylie tolerates Kloe to some extent but most of the time they ignore each other. I think that Kloe tries to challenge Kylie for "top Cat" position but Kylie is bigger tho declawed (when I got her) and I always interevene when I'm around.
Good Luck to YOU!

[jenluckenbach]

I would not FORCE Nakita downstairs when she feels more comfortable upstairs. You could try to "coax" her though, with play or treats.

I would really (REALLY) not stress so much. Things sound perfectly normal and I can almost guarrentee that they will only get better.

[Russian Blue]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. :)


I would not FORCE Nakita downstairs when she feels more comfortable upstairs. You could try to "coax" her though, with play or treats.

I would really (REALLY) not stress so much. Things sound perfectly normal and I can almost guarrentee that they will only get better.

That's what I was thinking Jen. Yesterday I started coaxing her down with treats and I'm going to try having some play sessions with the two of them. Nakita has come down a few times on her own - but she's very cautious and any movement by Phoenix sends her flying upstairs.

I also have been increasing the verbal communication when Nakita and Phoenix are together and paying more attention to Nakita. Also, handing out rewards when Nakita does make it downstairs. I may start feeding them both in the kitchen and see how that works out.

Thanks again guys...as Rob says leave it to them to figure it out. And I know I need to have some patience! Not a strong suit of mine as you can see... :rolleyes: :o

[catmandu]

Say over and over.
Nakita , and then Nakitas Friend
This may help create a bond.
It helped the Found Cats.

[krazyaboutkatz]

I think that you're doing very well so far but I do agree that they need to work it out among themselves. I also do what K & L do and it's worked for me so far. Since my newest addition,Ziggy, had already been checked out at the vets ahead of time, I just let her roam free and in 3 days she was accepted by all of my other furkids.:) My cats are used to living with other cats though so this does make a big difference. Good luck and please continue to keep us updated.:)

[Bengalz]

Kass,

Everyone has given great advice and suggestions. I have been following your thread as well as the thread about Nakita's health issues and can understand your concern. Nakita is a very special baby and you want her to be happy foremost. Phoenix is a kitten and probably very adaptable at this stage - a good thing.

Your maternal instinct is to help Nakita adjust - I would be doing exactly the same thing ;) And my hubby would be saying exactly the same thing :rolleyes: Is it possible that Nakita is feeling your stress? As difficult as it may be, try to focus your energy on Nakita. Relax with her and do the things that are normal for her. Phoenix will definitely observe and try to get in on the action and her presence will become more and more normal for Nakita. As cats are creatures of habit -- Phoenix will become a part of that routine and hopefully, it will become easier for Nakita to have another kitty in her life.

My other thought is that if Nakita is not feeling 100%, this may contribute to some of her stress (definitely, to yours). That's a lot of stuff going on all at once. Take deep deep breaths and hug your girls - things will get better.

Both Nakita and Phoenix are adorable and so dear and very lucky to have you and Rob as their purrents. You want all that is good for both of them and that will come. You're a great cat mommy and things will work out - give yourself a little credit.

Hugs, Betty

[ramanth]

and they are MOM AND SON! course they don't know that! ;)
LOL! No kidding. You'd think they'd remember each other when I finally was able to trap Logan, buh ooohhh no. Zam was downright mean and brutal to the poor boy. But the minute he came home from his snip-snip, she started to treat him a little better and over time, she started to mother him again. It was really sweet seeing their relationship blossom.

I think you are doing a great job with introducing Nakita and Phoenix. When I was young, new cats were just put together and after some tiffs and working out the heirarchy, they always did fine and were soon buddies.

[Barbara]

When I was young....
Sorry, it's off topic but it had me ROFL :D

[ramanth]

Sorry, it's off topic but it had me ROFL :D
LOL! Okay okay... when I was YOUNGER... as in 10 years old. :p :D