Help with too strong of a hunt drive!!!

[AdoreMyDogs]

As you may know already, Graham is a very well trained dog who listens quite well to me. He is very eager to please and he has not signs of stubborness...but I have a problem that I don't know how to fix. I am hoping Carrie will chime in here!

I moved last week to a place that has huge, wooded, open grasslands & much wetland areas. Graham no longer has a backyard so he gets several walks every day so he can empty his bladder & bowels. I had taught him from the very beginning to not go to the bathroom while on his regular walking lead, so I got a flexi-lead and I put a harness on him when he goes out so he can go potty and still have the safety of a leash. The problem is this...he still does not like to go to the bathroom on lead, even if it's with the flexi leash & harness...but with some coaxing he will eventually go. I want to let him off lead occationally, since there is no specific dog parks, to get some excersise and to be able to be a dog...but the problem is this....whenever I let him off that flexi leash he has his nose plastered to the ground, and is obviously tracking small animals and if I am not watching him VERY closely and he sees something to chase (any type of rodent, squirrel, bunny, deer, skunk, raccoon etc.) he will go after it. I firmly yell, "NO" and he will cease his chase, but it's so hard to get him to stay with me. I have to watch him like a hawk. My husband brought him to a nice field with long grasses for some off lead freedom, but Dan did not watch him well enough and Graham was gone! He freaked out and frantically ran around, heartbroken and betrayed to find this dog...finally 15 or so minutes later Graham came guiltly up to Dan and the freedom ended there. Dan will not let Graham off lead (as of now) ever again. Graham's hunt drive is driving me nuts. His walks are no longer fun for me or him because I am always correcting him, telling him to stay with me, correcting him when he gets too obsessed with an animal track, and yelling when he begins to chase anything cute and fuzzy.

I understand that some dogs have a strong hunt drive and there's not much that can be done to erase that, but can I ever let him off lead and enjoy to a nice run without fear of him spotting a nice chase and going for it, regardless of whether or not he's supposed to? I want a well beahaved dog and a dog I can trust. He is breaking my trust quickly, and more and more each day!

When he gets to an area with lots of natural landscapes, and lots of critters to hunt down like what I have all around my townhouse, he becomes a different dog. All he wants to do is kill, that's it. He does not even care if I am around at all. I am staying very firm but I have a feeling it's going to get worse, since it's a bit worse every day, and he may be getting sick of me correcting him all the time.....any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I would like to add that every time Graham begins to lose control with his urge to track & hunt, and he loses ability to hear me, he runs faster with his nose plastered onto the earth, and he begins sniffing a zillion MPH, I try to get him to get control of himself by putting him in a downstay for a minute or so...just to get him to calm down a bit. That seems to work for maybe 3 minutes, until a bunny runs ahead of him then he loses all control and runs at it full speed until I order him to stop. He never loses control like this while on lead.

[ August 24, 2001: Message edited by: AdoreMyDogs ]

[carrie]

I am here and I am chiming!!!!!

Paddy (my rescued G.R.) was exactly the same when I first got him.

It is scary, as anything is, until you have control over it.

I am not a great lover of flexi leads, but they have their uses. Ideal as a safety rope when training recall. There are two tricks to make recall foolproof - 1. The reward for doing it must be fantastic - 2. The dog has to realise that there is no alternative to coming when called.

I will email you with some suggestions that may help.

[Dixieland Dancer]

I am interested in hearing the suggestions that Carrie offers. It is always nice to hear other peoples techniques for teaching. Please post them or email me with them if you would. :) :)

[3-greys-and-a-mutt]

Leslie, you mentioned wanting a dog you could trust...
I thought this might me a good place to quote from an earlier post:

Logan
Member
Posts: 998
From: Greenville, SC, USA
May 17, 2001 05:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I pulled this from another board, and I do not know its origin, or would have given appropriate credit. Reading it made me sit up and think long and hard about my desire to have my dogs off leash with me.
Trust- A Deadly Disease
Author unknown
There is a deadly disease stalking your dog, a hideous, stealthy thing just
waiting its chance to steal your beloved friend. It is not a new disease, or
one for which there are inoculations. The disease is called "Trust".

You knew before you ever took your puppy home that it could not be trusted.
The breeder who provided you with this precious animal warned you, drummed
it into your head. Puppies steal off counters, destroy anything expensive,
chase cats, take forever to house train, and must never be allowed off
lead!!

When the big day finally arrived, heeding the sage advice of the breeder,
you escorted your puppy to his new home, properly collared and tagged, the
lead held tightly in your hand.

At home the house was "puppy-proofed". Everything of value was stored in
the spare bedroom, garbage stowed on top of the refrigerator, cats
separated, and a gate placed across the living room to keep at least one
part of the house puddle free. All windows and doors had been properly
secured, and signs placed in all strategic points reminding all to "Close
the door!"

Soon it becomes second nature to make sure the door closes nine tenths of
a second after it was opened and that it is really latched. "Don't let the
dog out" is your second most verbalized expression. (The first is "No!") You
worry and fuss constantly, terrified that your darling will get out and
disaster will surely follow. Your friends comment about who you love most,
your family or the dog. You know that to relax your vigil for a moment might
lose him to you forever.

And so the weeks and months pass, with your puppy becoming more civilized
every day, and the seeds of trust are planted. It seems that each new day
brings less destruction, less breakage. Almost before you know it, your
gangly, slurpy puppy has turned into an elegant, dignified friend.

Now that he is a more reliable, sedate companion, you take him more places.
No longer does he chew the steering wheel when left in the car. And darned
if that cake wasn't still on the counter this morning. And, oh yes, wasn't
that the cat he was sleeping with so cozily on your pillow last night?

At this point you are beginning to become infected, the disease is
spreading its roots deep into your mind.

And then one of your friends suggest obedience classes, and, after a time
you even let him run loose from the car into the house when you get home.
Why not, he always runs straight to the door, dancing a frenzy of joy and
waits to be let in. And, remember he comes every time he is called. You know
he is the exception that disproves the rule. (And sometimes late at night,
you even let him slip out the front door to go potty and then right back
in.)

Years pass- it is hard to remember why you ever worried so much when he was
a puppy. He would never think of running out the door left open while you
bring in the packages from the car. It would be beneath his dignity to jump
out the window of the car while you run into the convenience store. And when
you take him for those wonderful long walks at dawn, it only takes one
whistle to send him racing back to you in a burst of speed when the walk
comes too close to the highway. (He still gets in the garbage, but nobody is
perfect!)

This is the time the disease has waited for so patiently. Sometimes it only
has to wait a year or two, but often it takes much longer.

He spies the neighbour dog across the street, and suddenly forgets
everything he ever knew about not slipping out doors, jumping out windows or
coming when called due to traffic. Perhaps it was only a paper fluttering in
the breeze, or even just the sheer joy of running...

Stopped in an instant. Stilled forever- Your heart is broken at the sight
of his still beautiful body.

The disease is trust. The final outcome, hit by a car.

Every morning my dog bounced around off lead exploring. Every morning for
seven years he came back when he was called. He was perfectly obedient,
perfectly trustworthy. He died fourteen hours after being hit by a car.
Please do not risk your friend and your heart. Save the trust for things
that do not matter.

Please read this every year on your puppy's birthday, lest we forget.

[lizbud]

AdoreMyDogs,
Had the same problem when my GSD/Huskey was
off leash...Even with a leash he would pull me after him once he spotted a cat,squirrel,
bird,whatever..Had to watch him like hawk
to see things before he did and anticipate
his moves so i would not be caught off guard.
He is know completely "leash trained" to
respond & obey commands, but flunked his
"off Lead" training.He can only "run free"
in his own fenced yard & nowhere else...

Dixieland Dancer...
Can you not go ahead & post your ideas
or suggestions about this problem now???
I love to learn new ideas. Thanks.

[carrie]

Email has been sent, bit of a long one which is why I didn't post it all here, hope it helps. Good luck.

[carrie]

3-grey-and-a-mutt...that is spooky! I started my email with words to the effect of,"anyone who says they trust their dog is asking for trouble".
Not to say you can't trust a dog, I do mine, I did when walking in blindfold being guided by a dog I had trained, I did when handing that dog on to a blind owner that was putting their life in trust to that dog....but you have to know your dog, understand your dog and it's limits, emotions and instincts. (Guide dogs are trained to do a job that no instinct can help them with and one of the hardest parts of the whole process is getting the new owner to trust the dog and at the same time accept the limitations of that trust.) The dog is only a dog and will behave as a dog all it's life. For all of that life the owner must be aware of the changes in the relationship from the dog's point of view. The day you stop doing that is the first day you invite your dog to put itself, you and others in peril.

[AdoreMyDogs]

Carrie...thanks SO much for the email! I won't be able to read it until Monday when I head back to work, but it will give me something to look forward to when I get there :)

I am not fond of Flexi leashes either but I mainly use it because it not only looks better to the other residents in my complex (leash laws, you know) but also, that darn dog is hard to see in the morning before the sun rises, and in the evening after the sun sets... I just can't see him...and it's the only way I can keep track of him. Like I said, he will not go to the bathroom while on his regular leather lead.

Graham would never behave this way while on his standard leather lead. He always walks with a loose leash, and would never lunge at anything that crosses his path, but he does look at whatever it is VERY intentlly...until I order him to "Leave It". He knows better then to test me, he is a perfect gentlemen on his standard leather lead...but he is trained not to go potty while on his std. leather lead. I need to be able to trust my dogs, all of them and at all times. I have always been strict (but with a gentle hand) when training, and I don't ever take any bull poo poo from Graham or any dog I have owned. They mind me or else they suffer the conquences. I would never hurt any of my animals, but the training they have gotten has always been very constant and, some might say, strict because I don't let them have their way if it's not what I want...not ever. If I have to train Graham for the rest of his life then so be it...I will keep at this until I can trust him.

Graham does recall perfectly...normally. When he is off lead and hot on the trail of a possible hunt, he gets so obesssed that it will sometimes take 2-3 recalls to get him to finally pay attention to me. The tone in my voice is VERY serious on the 2nd recall because he KNOWS that he is supposed to DROP whatever it is he is doing to come to me when I call...and he is very responsive to me all other times except for when he feels like killing. I always bring treats with me but he is only interested in killing, he will eat the treat, but he's not overly food driven, so he could pretty much care less. And he is even less toy driven. I just usually praise him quite a bit when he comes to me on the first call, give him a small, tasty morsel, and praise, praise, praise. He could care less. He only wants to hunt. I could walk away and leave him and he would not notice I was gone for possibly a half hour. Oh well...I will read what you have to say on Monday and I'll see what I can do about this. If walks have to be a drag for awile because of this training business then so be it. When Graham ran off after that animal last week with Dan, he could have been kicked by a deer, sprayed by a skunk, bitten in his face or eye by a rodent, found by someone who sold him as bait for pit fighters, hit by a car, or found by someone who did not want to give him back, regardless of his ID tags. I am so thankful that Graham decided to come back, otherwise I may have never seen Graham alive again. This just can't happen. I would never forgive myself, because this is a preventable problem, no matter how much more difficult it may be then teaching just basic obedience.

Thank you so much for anything you are able to help me with. That Graham is such an important part of my life and I can't lose him like this. He's my angel and my friend and my protector. I will do everything in my power to see that he will live to be a very ripe old age with me...as my family.

[Dixieland Dancer]

I believe the problem in this situation is a dog who does not want to go to the potty while on a lead. I think what you need to do is go back to basic potty training techniques for a short period of time to unlearn your dog of not wanting to eliminate while on a lead. It should only take a few short days to a week if your consistent.

Assuming you do not crate your dog....
This is what is referred to as the umbilical cord method. The dog is tied to your waist so you can watch it every second. Then, every hour on the hour you take it outside, to the place where you want it to eliminate. I like to use the command "GO POTTY" so the dog associates the act with the command. When they do eliminate, you give them several treats and praise them like you never have before. Make the treats fantastic too! Then take them back inside, and let them off the leash for a little while.
If they do not eliminate, they do not get a treat, and they go back inside still on the leash. After a hour repeat the process again.

While your dog may be used to being off lead in the house you need to take the time to recondition the dog. Never leave it off the leash during this period (unless it's a reward) until you get them to understand going potty on the leash is an acceptable thing.

I agree that if you get Drake to potty on lead you should not have to walk him off lead (for his safety) and you won't have to worry about his habit of chasing after other animals. Especially if you walk him with a Flexi-leash.

Keep us posted on your progress and Happy Training ;)

[bugmom]

Carrie -
I'd love to receive the training tips too. My dog is BIG hunter (she was feral for 5/6 months and so hunted to live.) i know i can never break her totally of those habits but even a little more control would be GREAT!
thanks -
janet

[Dixieland Dancer]

I am still interested in hearing Carries advice on this subject. Please email me if possible or post. Thanks!

[AdoreMyDogs]

Thanks everyone...and thanks Carrie. This is the biggest training project I have ever had with Graham. Obedience was a breeze, agility was cake, but this is a biggie. I have been very strict with him. With every walk, I have brought treats and had them in my pocket for rewards at all times. Graham is doing better, although I have a long way to go. On Sunday Graham made me proud (and shocked the heck out of me) by sniffing out the track of a rabbit, then he saw the bunny and immediately went after it, without thinking...then as quick as he went after it, he stopped and looked at me. I thought there was something wrong with him! I praised him so much that my throat hurt a bit :) He looked at me with eyes that seemed to say, "can I chase that?". When I told him he could not, he seemed to go on with his walk. All of this happened off lead.

As for letting Graham go potty on his regular leather walking lead, I don't want this. When I am walking him on his regular walking lead, I always unclip it, point towards a direction and tell him to go potty every so often...he knows the command and he complys. It's a good system for me, and I can trust that when I take him places in public I don't risk the chance of him peeing or pooping on something or somewhere that he should not.

I feel that although I am still working on this, and it will take awhile, I have quite a bit more control of Graham and he has more respect of me...now I am worried about my husband, Dan. Dan is really good at loving Graham, but he does not know about the actual training. He will need to know how to control Graham before he lets him off the flexi leash again, and since he is just not a natural with training, I think Dan will just use the Flexi leash and harness when Graham is being excersised and pottied.

Below is the email Carrie sent to me...it is incredibly knowledgable and it really makes sence.

Hello there,
I sympathise with you on this one, it is scary and will take time to become confident. Reassure yourself that anyone who says they trust their dog fully is asking for trouble.
Graham is not like this on the lead as he is a bright dog and knows you are in control and trusts you. He also knows that once he is a certain distance from you he is not under your control any more.

Before you start to get your control back here is something that will help a LOT. Get a whistle, not a sport whistle but a long plastic one with an even tone ( big tip - put it on a string and wear it around your neck when you are out with the dog and always put it in the same place in the house - you will lose one every two weeks if you are anything like me!!!!!) and a bell or two to fix to the harness. The bells will let you have a better idea where he is and warn wildlife that something is coming so big, loud bells are ideal, falconers bells are what I use.
You need to give Graham an idea what the whistle means and as food is going to be the way you reward him for his recall it will reinforce this in his mind if you first train him to eat only when he hears the whistle. Hold his bowl until he is sitting, tell him to stay as you put the food down (you will need to stand between him and the bowl at first and use your legs and voice to enforce the stay). Make sure that he stays for at least five seconds at first, stretching it out to fifteen to thirty as you become more confident, and then give two short blows on the whistle and allow him to eat. Don't use the whistle at any other time and never let him eat anything unless he hears those two toots from the whistle. (This is brilliant and seems impossible when you first try it but dogs will learn it VERY quickly, by about the fourth or fifth time you should be able to trust him not to go for the food before he hears the whistle.) Once he knows this you can go on to the next stage.....
Go right back to basics with recall training - this is the only time I think using food as a reward is worthwhile. It is important to let Graham know things have changed from day one (once whistle feeding is established and you are both confident with it) of this so take him out to relieve himself then fit his normal collar and lead (check chain if you use one, if not consider getting one now as it is a great tool when used correctly) as well as his harness. Spend five minutes "warming up" with some heel work, sits and stays. Then put him in a down stay and remove the collar/check chain, leaving the harness and flexi lead on (making sure you have plenty of slack on the flexi lead so there is no tension on the harness). Walk around him, go back, put the collar/check chain back on and praise like mad. If Graham enjoys fetch use a ball as part of the reward - throwing it just in front of him and going bonkers when he pick it up - you objective is to get him so in love with the ball he focuses on little else during the reward process. If not a ball then his favourite toy -but do not play tug of war with him.
Next put him in a sit stay and again remove the collar/check chain, leaving the harness and flexi lead on. Walk backwards from him, again with plenty of slack on the flexi lead, repeating the stay command and using a clear hand signal (I like to use my hand in an upright position with the palm facing the dog). Before you call the dog to you make sure you have a food reward in your hand ready ( small pieces of anything with a good strong flavour - liver, sausage or cheese are good, but little bits.) Two short toots on the whistle and then very quickly, "Graham, come" in a very happy, voice. As soon as he comes to you and sits give him the food reward and then the toy or ball, all the time going bonkers with your voice and with physical praise. Your dog is now going, "Whoa! I've done this before but it's never been this good before!" You need him to remember this reaction.
Practice this again and then go on your walk with him on the flexi lead. Every few minutes, varying the time between each recall, blow the whistle, call him and reward like crazy - food, toy/ball and voice.
As soon as he is doing this ten out of ten times, not expecting to get to this stage for three or four days, drop the vocal command, only use the whistle. If he responds to this he gets the works - food, toy/ball, vocal and physical praise. If he does not respond wait for five seconds and then whistle and use the vocal command - when he responds he gets a fuss and a good boy - no food. Five minutes later give him the whistle again - same rules. Keep going until he responds to the whistle and then he gets the food. All the time it is reinforcing - whistle means food!
When he responds ten out of ten times to the whistle alone you are allowed to become a little crazy in your dog's eyes.
The eleventh time he gets all the reward EXCEPT the food. Next time he gets everything, and the next. Next time NO FOOD! The next three times everything, next time NO FOOD. Next time everything, next NO FOOD! The dog will be slightly confused and try harder each time food is witheld to get it right - it is the same principle as when you are ignoring an undesired behaviour to rectify it- the dog will always try harder with the behaviour as it has always gotten him the attention he wanted before before he gives it up. In this case you are rewarding the dog trying harder.

At the same time teaching the fetch to Graham would be a really useful tool - in the house, on the flexi lead, using it as a reward game. If you can get him focused on a ball, dumbell or toy to the verge of obsession and beyond you then have a tool to work with!

This is more than enough to get you started and I promise you it will work, especially with a dog already tuned into you and well behaved. His willingness to please you is a Godsend - but it will take time, commitment and consistency.
Any questions don't hesitate to ask as I have a tendency to get writing and get carried away - so some of it may not be clear to you...that and the language barrier that I STILL can't get the hang of!

Best wishes and good luck, please let me know how you are getting on as that is the best bit for me.

With love, Carrie.

Again I thank you all very much.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Thank you for posting Carrie's email. Her advice was excellent (as usual) :) I also use the whistle when training for hunting however just a little different. One toot is for sit, two is stop and look for direction, and three is come to me directly. It really takes concentration on the dogs part to listen for the number of toots. :eek: You should have positive results using this method. Happy training
;)