Speaking of illegal immigrants... [Archive]

moosmom

08-01-2006, 09:56 AM

Man acquitted of molesting girl wins right to identify parents

By JOHN CHRISTOFFERSEN
Associated Press Writer

NEW HAVEN, Conn. (AP) -- A man acquitted of molesting a girl at a Bridgeport synagogue has won the right to identify her parents in a lawsuit accusing them of making false sexual abuse allegations against him, his attorney said Monday.

Alfredo Vargas, a 69-year-old handyman, spent about five years in prison before he was acquitted in January in a second trial.

Weeks before he was acquitted, the parents of the girl won a settlement that gave them the synagogue that Vargas had built by hand, temple leaders say. Vargas, an illegal immigrant from Nicaragua, was deported.

When Vargas sued the parents, they sought to have the entire court record sealed to protect the girl. A Superior Court judge in Bridgeport agreed to replace the parents' names with pseudonyms.

The Connecticut Appellate Court last week turned down a bid by the parents to reconsider its decision in June rejecting the use of pseudonyms, Max Rosenberg, an attorney for Vargas, said Monday.

Attorneys for Vargas say the parents have accused others of sexual abuse as well, but the court order sealing their names might prevent additional people from coming forward.

"I'm very, very happy," Rosenberg said. "I think the court understands the situation here and realizes the threat to the general public that these people present."

Rosenberg identified the parents as Andrew LaBella and Cheryl Hoppenstein.

A telephone message was left Monday with Max Brunswick, their attorney.

The case is establishing standards for when court cases can proceed with pseudonyms, Rosenberg said.

"We're really defining what elements need to occur in order to have the benefit of anonymity or pseudonyms," Rosenberg said.

Brunswick has said the court order was appropriate to protect the girl's privacy and called the lawsuit a retaliation for the settlement.

In his lawsuit, Vargas cites affidavits from a rabbi and another family who say the same parents made sexual abuse accusations against their children, though no one else was prosecuted.

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My question is, "Gee, I wonder who paid for this ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT'S legal defense?????

jackie

08-01-2006, 12:19 PM

My question is, "Gee, I wonder who paid for this ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT'S legal defense?????

Ok, let me get this straight, A man was wrongly accused of molesting a girl and spent five years in prison for it, and you are angry that the government may have paid for his legal defense?

I don't know if I am missing something, but the only thing that outrages me about this story is an innocent man spent five years in prison.

moosmom

08-01-2006, 12:58 PM

you are angry that the government may have paid for his legal defense?

Yup. He was in this country ILLEGALLY. That's only MY opinion though.

momoffuzzyfaces

08-01-2006, 01:14 PM

Well, if he hadn't snuck into this country illegally, he wouldn't have gotten himself into this mess, eh?

Cataholic

08-01-2006, 02:02 PM

And, the vote goes to JACKIE! MOFF- I don't know if your comment was tongue in cheek, or not, and, of course, it isn't my business to know. But, if one's thought process after reading that article centers on the illegal v. legal arrgument, I have an issue or two with that.

I gotta say after reading this article, I only thought, wow, poor man. 5 years is a long time to waste away in anyone's jail. Your own country's jail, a foreign country's jail, doesn't seem to make much difference.

sparks19

08-01-2006, 02:10 PM

Well I'm pretty sure being an illegal immigrant is a crime so really he wasn't in jail for nothing ;)

Cataholic

08-01-2006, 02:30 PM

Well I'm pretty sure being an illegal immigrant is a crime so really he wasn't in jail for nothing ;)

Deep breathes now....have you ever heard that ole "punishment fits the crime" theory kicked about?

sparks19

08-01-2006, 02:34 PM

well really now everyone is appalled that a criminal was in jail. It sucks that innocent people get put in jail and it happens too often but this was not just some innocent person, he really WAS a criminal in a sense. I'm sorry but I just can't feel sorry for illegal immigrants. Like I said it sucks that he went to jail when he was innocent of one particular crime, however he was guilty of another crime and now our tax dollars are paying for yet another illegal immigrant.

K9soul

08-01-2006, 02:35 PM

If he was being brought up on charges for being an illegal immigrant then being deported would have been appropriate enough (not spending 5 years in prison for it). If this girl's parents are really running around accusing multiple people of abuse just to get money in lawsuits, that is far more sickening to me than the fact that the man was an illegal immigrant and that the govt may have paid for his defense. Just my opinion.

sparks19

08-01-2006, 02:37 PM

I agree that it is sick what people will do.

but again in my opinion he shouldn't have been here in the first place.

if it is proven that these people are wrongfully accusing other of assault then I hope they get what is coming to them. but I think he should seek out his government to foot the bill for him.

Lady's Human

08-01-2006, 02:38 PM

If he was merely being prosecuted for being an illegal immigrant, fine, deport him and that should be the end of it.

If he was wrongfully prosecuted (as would seem to be the case for the crime he was in jail for) he should be able to sue. If false statements were made to indict him, then the state should go after the accusers for legal costs.

sparks19

08-01-2006, 02:41 PM

momoffuzzyfaces

08-01-2006, 02:42 PM

JenBKR

08-01-2006, 03:11 PM

I just think it's really sad that these parents are putting their daughter in the middle of a bunch of molestation cases. She is going to be one messed up adult someday.

momoffuzzyfaces

08-01-2006, 03:14 PM

I just think it's really sad that these parents are putting their daughter in the middle of a bunch of molestation cases. She is going to be one messed up adult someday.Now this, I can totally agree with!!! Poor kid!!!

Cataholic

08-01-2006, 03:19 PM

Let me see if I can explain this a bit: What happened was awful and shouldn't have happened BUT if he hadn't been where he wasn't supposed to be none of it would have happened. People do have some responsibilites for themselves after all.

It's like say there was a drug deal going down across from a bank that was being robbed and one of the drug dealers got caught but was accused of being a bank robber instead of a dealer. If all parties involved had been obeying the law in the first place no one would be in jail. :confused:

Have I missed the boat totally?
Not meaning to offend anyone, just my line of thought.

I wouldn't say you are missing the boat (no pun), and I could agree with you, in a general sort of way. But, when one applies the facts to this case, it isn't a 'just' result. For me, if I follow your logic, a person that jaywalks 'deserves' death when he is struck by a vehicle that is speeding.

Sure, the speeder is breaking a law, but, so is the jaywalker, so, he is deserving of the punishment.

For me, the punishment must fit the crime. Here, it didn't. Two wrongs don't make a right. Or, some other biblical reference like that.

I just wouldn't have read the article and thought, "oh well, you deserved something anyhow" or "and just who do you think is paying this person's freight"? What jumped out at a particular reader was more telling than the article, nearly.

momoffuzzyfaces

08-01-2006, 03:31 PM

I wouldn't say you are missing the boat (no pun), and I could agree with you, in a general sort of way. But, when one applies the facts to this case, it isn't a 'just' result. For me, if I follow your logic, a person that jaywalks 'deserves' death when he is struck by a vehicle that is speeding.

Sure, the speeder is breaking a law, but, so is the jaywalker, so, he is deserving of the punishment.

For me, the punishment must fit the crime. Here, it didn't. Two wrongs don't make a right. Or, some other biblical reference like that.

I just wouldn't have read the article and thought, "oh well, you deserved something anyhow" or "and just who do you think is paying this person's freight"? What jumped out at a particular reader was more telling than the article, nearly.No I don't think he deserved punishment (not that anyway). I just meant if he hadn't been where he shouldn't be, it wouldn't have happened. Like if someone walks out in front of a car and gets hit, if he hadn't done that, he wouldn't have been hit. His actions by doing what he shouldn't caused the result.

It's like if you invite a snake to sleep with you, you may get bit. The snake may think it's protecting itself and bite but if you hadn't had him there in the first place, no bite would have happened.

Never mind, I'm confusing myself now! (even more than usual, I mean) :D

Cataholic

08-01-2006, 03:45 PM

[color=teal][b]It's like if you invite a snake to sleep with you, you may get bit. The snake may think it's protecting itself and bite but if you hadn't had him there in the first place, no bite would have happened.

OMG. WHAT an analogy!!! Now, tonight, when I go to bed, I am going to think there are snakes in my bed!!! My one true 'phobia'. ACK!!!! :o :D

momoffuzzyfaces

08-01-2006, 04:22 PM

:D Sorry! I hate snakes too!

At least they shouldn't be there unless you invite them! :D

Edwina's Secretary

08-03-2006, 07:35 PM

Gosh...I had missed this. I cannot tell you how sad this makes me.

An innocent man deserves five years in prison for a crime he did not commit.

How righteous. How judgemental. How compassionate.

And we wonder why people keep hating...and we wonder why people keep killing each other.

lbaker

08-03-2006, 07:43 PM

I'm right with you Sara but I think we have been down this road/tunnel before. I have larger issues to deal with right now ~ I just wanted to raise my hand to you and Johanna.. sigh, as usual we will have the nay sayers. It is summer and quite hot outside.. in many ways

king2005

08-04-2006, 09:41 AM

heinz57_79

08-04-2006, 12:13 PM

How about this, just to go along with the "he shouldn't have been there in the first place" idea:

A child sees a farm with horses, and reads all the signs that say "Keep Out! No trespassing!" etc but climbs the fence anyway and starts to run towards the horses, excited and wanting to pet them. Spooked by someone unfamiliar they panic. The child gets kicked in the head and trampled.

The child shouldn't have been there in the first place. Did they deserve what they got? They wanted to see what was on the other side, because it was different, new and exciting and maybe better than any other play spot.

I live in Arizona and goodness knows we get a lot of illegal immigrants here. Illegal or not, no one should serve time for a crime they did not committ. So our government picked up the tab for his defense... how is that any different for our government picking up the tab for the defense of a serial killer, child rapist etc? Don't forget, "If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided for you." Basic rights. I don't particularly like the idea of my tax money going to defend some of the most heinous criminals, but that is how this country works. Illegal or not, he is still a human being a fact that we tend to overlook too often. He wasn't here committing crimes to make money, he was working. If he's illegal, deport him. Fine. But do no throw him in prison where he might have been KILLED for his alleged mollestation of a little girl. Innocent is innocent, and of the crime he was accused he is INNOCENT.

momoffuzzyfaces

08-04-2006, 12:38 PM

How about this, just to go along with the "he shouldn't have been there in the first place" idea:

A child sees a farm with horses, and reads all the signs that say "Keep Out! No trespassing!" etc but climbs the fence anyway and starts to run towards the horses, excited and wanting to pet them. Spooked by someone unfamiliar they panic. The child gets kicked in the head and trampled.

The child shouldn't have been there in the first place. Did they deserve what they got? They wanted to see what was on the other side, because it was different, new and exciting and maybe better than any other play spot.
.
Believe me I know too well about children getting hurt for being where they shouldn't. I had a cousin killed when he was a baby by climbing up on a tractor tire that was leaning against a wall in a barn. It fell on him and killed him. Did he desere to die? No. But still, it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been where he was warned time and time again not to go.

The illegal immagrant did not deserve the punishment he got either. The people who did that to him deserve punishment. What I was trying to say, rather poorly obviously, was if he had made "other" choices like coming into the country legally, the time line of his life would have changed and he probably wouldn't have been where he was. His life wouldn't have been ruined. :(

mruffruff

08-04-2006, 01:52 PM

momoffuzzyfaces

08-04-2006, 02:35 PM

But should the people who accused him wrongly be allowed to remain anonymous? Shouldn't their names be known to the public for what they caused unnecessarily to this man? illegal imigrant or not, it has nothing to do with why they were in court this time.

I don't like paying for his lawyer either, but I like even less that he was accused of something, convicted, served 5 years and THEN they find out he didn't do it. Shouldn't the accusors pay back the costs to the government for the trial, his upkeep, his lawyer? Maybe pay him for lost wages and ruining his reputation?
Then deport him :rolleyes:
Yea, I can't believe they get to remain anonymous after what they did. The public should be allowed to know so they can be aware and maybe protect themselves from this sort of thing.

They should give a settlement for taking 5 years out of someones life needlessly. They should pay all court costs on both sides plus serve hefty jail time themselves.

sparks19

08-04-2006, 02:41 PM

I agree 100% with Cataholic!! The fact that he isn't suppose to be in your country is not the issue & should not have even been brought up in this case.. The case is purely about a human being being wrongfully accused & nothing more! Once that issue is delt with, then sack him for the law he has broken himself.

Ex. Carla Halmolka (sp) was "set free" from a horrible murder rape (or whatever) she was involved in. "If" she was wrongfully accused for a bank robbery & went to jail for that. Then they learned she was wrongfully accused for the Robbery & she sued, would you guys feel the same? Oh well she deserved jail as she was set free from murdering & raping people
(there was video proof.. oh & this is a real case.. well not the robbery part, I made that up)..

I'm sorry but other crimes have no relevence in the bank robbery case (its only relivance is in the sentensing). Shes still a human being & deserves the same rights as everyone, other wise the legal system would fall apart & wouldn't be treating everyone as equals & passing judgement before any case was shown..

I'm sure that didn't make a whole lot of sence.. I'm not good with words, but I tried...

UM actually YES I would feel the same way./ In fact I would feel even MORE the same way ;)

That psycho b*tch should have NEVER been let out of jail. I don't care what her bullsh*t story is. She is JUST as dangerous as her husband Mr. Bernardo.

He abused her and made her do it. HMMMM well I know if I was abused and my husband forced me to drug and help rape my sister I would be crying at the very least (although he would have to kill me before I would assist in raping my family)

That woman scares the hell out of me.

I can't see that woman as a human being and having the same rights. I think her rights should have been tossed out the window after what she did with her husband. She is an animal. Not a human being.

the thing that angered me the most is she protested when she found out that her whereabouts would be made public. HELLO you helped RAPE and KILL teenage girls with your husband. I wouldn't want her in my neighbourhood

and if that makes me uncompassionate and intolerant than so be it. But she should rot in jail.

Sorry I know that was off topic but I hate Ms. Teale (as she is now known)

RICHARD

08-05-2006, 06:38 AM

if your name is Hoppenstein you need to be identified.

Hey, will he get his synagogue back?

what about the people who hired him to build the building?

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At the risk of being Un-PC........

This story has Immigration, Alledged Pedophilia, Religion, Lawsuits, Lawyers and Human Rights twists to it....

We just need a drunk actor, a drugged cyclist and a terrorist group shooting off rockets and I don't have to read the paper for a week! :confused:

dukedogsmom

08-05-2006, 09:10 AM

Here's some more fuel for the fire. When is something going to be done about this problem? And it is a problem, especially here in Florida.
http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060804/NEWS/608040331&SearchID=73252836501309
FHP Thinks Suspect's ID Is Fake

By Amber Smith
The Ledger

Picture

A FHP trooper appeared in court Thursday to ensure that Miguel Gonzalez, an illegal immigrant, would be held without bail. (PAUL JOHNSON/Ledger photo)
HAINES CITY -- Florida Highway Patrol investigators are looking into how illegal immigrant Miguel Gonzalez, charged in the hit-and-run death of an off-duty police officer, got what they think is a counterfeit Florida ID card.

Gonzalez, 43, of 3601 Baker Dairy Road, was charged in the Wednesday death of Haines City Officer Phoenix Braithwaite.

Gonzalez had his first appearance in the 10th Judicial Circuit Court on Thursday afternoon, where no plea was entered, but a public defender was appointed. He is being held without bail at the Polk County Jail.

"He is an illegal immigrant in this country. There's nothing keeping him here. We believed he would be a flight risk," Highway Patrol Cpl. John Carvalho told Bay News 9.

If Gonzalez had not fled the scene, he would have been given a ticket in the accident, said Carvalho, who was at Gonzalez's first appearance Thursday to make sure no bail was set.

"He made the wrong decision and he is going to have to pay the consequences," he told Bay News 9.

Investigators are still looking into the case, but they are convinced Gonzalez's state ID card is counterfeit. He never filed an application for an ID card, said Frank Penela, spokesman for the Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles.

"There is no matching record to that name," Penela said. "It has to be counterfeit. We would have a record of it if it was valid."

Investigators will be checking into where Gonzalez got the ID card, said Trooper Kim Miller of the Highway Patrol, which is investigating the case.

"That will all be a part of the investigation, which could take anywhere up to 60 days before it is completed," said Miller, an FHP spokeswoman.

Gonzalez was driving a van that belonged to Maria Ponce-Luvianos, Miller said. She said investigators are trying to find out why he had her van.

Gonzalez and his two passengers were on their way to work at an Orlando golf course when the crash occurred.

All three are in the country illegally, according to U.S. Citizenship and Naturalization Services officials, who have interviewed them.

The two passengers, Orovelio Martinez and Javier Benitez, were picked up by USCNS officials and are being detained as material witnesses, Miller said. They are not being charged.

Martinez, who was sitting in the front passenger seat of the van, and Benitez, who was in the right rear seat, were taken to Osceola Regional Medical Center for treatment after the accident. Neither had life-threatening injuries, Miller said. She said Benitez is Gonzalez's brother.

Braithwaite, 24, was on his way to work about 5:25 a.m. Wednesday on U.S. 17-92 in Osceola County near the Polk County line when he was hit head-on by a van driven by Gonzalez, authorities said. He died at the scene.

Gonzalez was passing a tractor-trailer and a cement truck at the time of the accident. The force of the crash threw Braithwaite and his motorcycle into the trucks' path, which ran over them.

Gonzalez ran from the crash, but was arrested by Polk County sheriff's deputies about 4 p.m. Wednesday as he was walking back toward his home.

He is charged with leaving the scene of an accident where a death occurred, which is a second-degree felony, and not having a driver license.

As he was being led out of the Haines City Police Department on Wednesday and taken to Polk County Jail, Gonzalez said he ran because he was scared and didn't have a driver license.

Mario Mora Trejos, Gonzalez's pastor, did not want to talk about Gonzalez on Thursday.

A woman who said she is a family friend of Gonzalez said Thursday he is a kind and family-oriented man.

"Everybody makes mistakes," Hilda Benitz told Bay News 9. "Maybe he went into shock. We don't know. Only he knows what he felt during the accident.

"We are hurt by this," she said. "He's a good person, and it's a misfortune. It could have happened to anybody."

Braithwaite's funeral service will be at 11 a.m. Tuesday at the NorthRidge Christian Church at 2250 Scenic Highway S. in Haines City. He will be given a full law enforcement officer's funeral with honor guard.

"He was on his way to work when he was killed. He was on his way to protect and serve the citizens of Haines City. We feel he deserves the full honors," said police Chief Morris West.

Visitation will be held from 10 to 11 a.m. Tuesday at the church.

West said there has been an outpouring of sympathy for Braithwaite's family from the community and from various police agencies.

Braithwaite's wife, Ivette, has said she is not ready to give interviews about her husband's death. The couple have a 2-year-old daughter.

"We will continue to be here for her and whatever she needs," West said. "The department is a very close-knit family. Phoenix was one of our family."

Amber Smith can be reached at [email protected] or 863-422-6800. Ledger reporter Jason Geary contributed to this article.

CathyBogart

08-06-2006, 01:14 AM

When did illegal immigrants suddenly become sub-human?! "Oh, well, he shouldn't have been here anyways, so who cares if we tore five years of his life away and shredded whatever good reputation he may have had for the rest of his life?"

Really now....I'm not a fan of illegal immigration, but I'm also not against ALL PEOPLE being treated fairly. I do think he deserves a big fat settlement out of this, and I hope the horrible people who ruined his life burn, and that their daughter is a strong enough person to handle all of the drama she must be surrounded with right now.

RICHARD

08-06-2006, 04:02 AM

my faather was an illegal alien once.

He got his green card and then became an American citizen.

He came home from the ceremony with that little American flag that they give you when they swear you in .

You would have thought he won the lottery- a gazilllion bucks as the prize.

And all it was was a piece of paper saying that he was an American citizen.

For every chump that breaks the law, there is one person that made it through the system after breaking the law.

-----------------

I am sorry....
The only time it becomes news is when a cop or the dog catcher gets a cap busted at them.

Two kids in El Lay were shotk by a jerk who had been sent back to Mexico -
only to come back, illegally.....

If the Government starts to look at credentials closely, what crimes will the media report?

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Flying lessons anyone?

momoffuzzyfaces

08-06-2006, 01:16 PM

If the Government starts to look at credentials closely, what crimes will the media report?

---------------------

Flying lessons anyone?
Have you noticed the media often mentions someone's religion, race, or legal status when they are : (a) trying to make fun of someone's religion, race, or legal status or (b) trying to sway people to their way of thinking about someone's religion, race, or legal status, or (c) trying to stir people up and cause trouble about someone's religion, race, or legal status.

Just my observation!!! I'm sure there are some who will disagree. That's ok! They are entitled to their opinions too.

RICHARD

08-08-2006, 03:14 AM

trying to stir people up and cause trouble about someone's religion, race, or legal status.

That guy on the FBI list with the multiple wives has me running scared.

Sometimes Mormons freak me out! :confused:

RICHARD

08-11-2006, 05:35 AM

ESPN is currently promoting the Little League World Series.

Teams from all over the planet come to the US to play baseball.

the commercial I saw has a van load of kids singing "take me out to the ball game" in spanish. The kids representing the team from Mexico.

I thought about the car being chased by the Border Patrol that flipped and killed 9 out the 21 people on board.

I am waiting for the cries of racial insensitivity. :rolleyes:

Vio&Juni

08-12-2006, 03:43 PM

You guys are amazing me! Are you really serious?!?!?! A nation of IMMIGRANTS is calling a poor Nicaraguan worker (who was not killing people on the streets, but WORKING) a criminal. I would think a little more before I would even think that for myself, let alone type it on a public website.

YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED! He was wrongfully sent to jail for something he didn't do and if he were anyone else you would have shouted loud from the same hill against the injustice done.

Aren't you, Americans, the ones who are so proud of their legal system? So, justice is just for some?

jackie

08-12-2006, 03:52 PM

lbaker

08-12-2006, 05:16 PM

Some of us ARE ashamed V&J, of this action.. not necessarily the system as a whole. That's why we are posting, and "venting". We are still allowed to have different opinions, and the opportunity to change some of it when we vote.

wolf_Q

08-12-2006, 05:50 PM

That guy on the FBI list with the multiple wives has me running scared.

Sometimes Mormons freak me out! :confused:

FYI the mormon religion does NOT allow polygamy. If this person has multiple wives, he is not a member of the mormon church.

Edwina's Secretary

08-12-2006, 06:00 PM

Thank you Vio and Jackie for an outsider's view. We are a nation of immigrants but sometimes we are a nation of I have mine, now go away.

When some brag..."my forefathers came here legally....it puzzles me....until fairly recently coming here legally meant having the money to buy passage and not having any of a number of communicable deseases and not being Chinese (for a while there was a national law against immigrants from China.) Quotas for immigrants from different countries and much of the red tape is relatively new.

It also meant being low man/woman on the totem pole. Working the jobs others didn't want and hopefully....working your way up and into the larger society.

We often wax eloquently about being the children of immigrants...until someone else wants to immigrate that is!

momoffuzzyfaces

08-12-2006, 06:06 PM

Two of my ancestors are Native American!!! Yep, they are here legally!! :D

Karen

08-12-2006, 06:59 PM

It always astounded me when one of the most anti-immigration-of-any-sort people I have ever met was a woman by the last name of Gradziulis. (She is now deceased.) Now you know, you just know that that name was NOT present on the Mayflower, nor is it a Native American name, or even something that's been "Americanized" from being here so long. As she was more than 60 years my elder, I bit my tongue rather than pick a fight with her, but I was always astounded.

Like gun laws, immigration laws do not work if they are not enforced on anything but a sporadic basis.

Vio&Juni

08-13-2006, 01:29 AM

Like gun laws, immigration laws do not work if they are not enforced on anything but a sporadic basis.

I agree with this. Having worked in a Visa Section, I have my own idea of how it should work and how it does. Yes, a lot of people in search for a better life, break the law. People pay here around $6000 to get out of the country (to facilitators WHO I would call criminals). They sell everything for a chance. They are used wherever they go. They make some little money, taking care of old people - someone's parents, cleaning fish - that goes on someone's table, collecting garbage - everyone's garbage. Not many people from rich countries would take a job like that, because taking care of an incontinent old woman is not something they've been dreaming of doing. Yes, they don't pay taxes, make the ones who hire them responsible for that.

mugsy

08-14-2006, 09:16 AM

Going back to the original story...

1. If he is here illegally, then deport him and let him apply for citizenship
2. He was STILL wronged by OUR justice system and should be represented by a "free" lawyer and should have some compensation for the fact that spent 5 years of his life in prison for a crime that he didn't commit and the fact that he is here illegally shouldn't enter into the equation.
3. I'm with Richard, does he get back the synagogue that he built?
4. As far as allowing people to just come into our country without following the proper procedures...I do not,and will not, ever agree with that. We have always had policies in place to become an American citizen (after we gained our independence) and now we have so many people that it should be monitored more closely...I am not saying that the procedure should be made more difficult, I'm just saying that the tide of illegals (those not willing to follow the proper procedure) needs to be stopped. Unfortunately for the Native Americans, they have gotten the shaft at every turn by our government, yet at every pow wow we ever go to they celebrate the veterans of AMERICAN wars in the place of highest honor....
5. As for the parents who are making these false accusation should be punished with some jail time...how many lives have the destroyed? Once you have been branded a child molestor, you never lose it....even after you have been pardoned, people look at you sideways. I have known 4 or 5 people that have been accused and people still believe the worst. It also seems to me to be a form a child abuse too...(a stretch I know) when they use their child for their own financial gain.

sparks19

08-14-2006, 11:13 AM

I am currently going through the immigration process right now. I have no problem with people immigrating. What I do have a problem with is them getting a free ride because they decided not to do it legally. I could have come here illegally too but I'm not. We aren't even done with the process yet. I have a temporary visitors permit they gave me at the border while I wait for my K3 to process and then we can start the REAL immigration process. I have been seperated from my husband one week after we were married until just recently. We are spending a lot of money on this. It sucks and it's hard and tedious BUT we are still doing it LEGALLY.

mugsy

08-14-2006, 11:18 AM

momoffuzzyfaces

08-14-2006, 12:39 PM

GOOD FOR YOU!! And welcome to the country and may you live and be prosperous!

I second that!!!

I'm all for immagration; after all besides the two Native Americans my family tree has people from: England, Ireland, Germany, Scotland, Wales, Spain, Poland and Rome among others, it's just those coming in illegally I have problems with. :D

sparks19

08-14-2006, 12:47 PM

I second that!!!

I'm all for immagration; after all besides the two Native Americans my family tree has people from: England, Ireland, Germany, Scotland, Wales, Spain, Poland and Rome among others, it's just those coming in illegally I have problems with. :D

Exactly. I think just because we want something done about illegal immigration does not mean we are against immigration. My grandmother came to Canada from England. of course that was a looooong time ago lol

I just came over from Canada lol

BTW thank you mugsy and momoffuzzyfaces :D

Edwina's Secretary

08-14-2006, 03:09 PM

What I do have a problem with is them getting a free ride because they decided not to do it legally.

I not sure picking strawberries in the hot sun with toilet facilities three fields away is a free ride.....

sparks19

08-14-2006, 03:24 PM

I not sure picking strawberries in the hot sun with toilet facilities three fields away is a free ride.....

I'm referring to how a few months ago they were considering just allowing them to become legals just like that. Why? They commit a crime and then you consider rewarding them for it? Send them back, and use prisoners to do the manual labour :D

Vio&Juni

08-14-2006, 04:47 PM

Lady's Human

08-14-2006, 05:50 PM

I know many immigrants who have gotten here legally. I used to have an entire crew who worked for me made up of 99% hispanic immigrants. They came from garden spots like El Salvador, Nicaragua, Columbia, and Mexico, and were NOT wealthy or connected individuals. With one exception, they all came here legally, and the one exception applied for political refugee status on entry into the US ( he walked from El Salvador into the US, decided to take his chances with the border patrol rather than the Salvadoran press gangs). There are ways to get into the US legally, and they need to be used.

I am NOT anti immigration. I have an issue with people who are here illegally, and I have a bigger issue with the politicians in Washington who play with immigration laws to pander to constituents. Both borders are security vulnerabilities for the US, have been for years, and they need to be controlled.

sparks19

08-14-2006, 06:10 PM

Sparks19, I would walk a mile in their shoes before I would jump to conclusions. And state them out loud. Yes, you're doing it legally, but have you thought about how much more privilleged are you for having the resources to do it legally, for having the access to all the correct information, for just coming from the "right country"?

the point is not whether you are more privileged or not the point is no matter where you come from, no matter what your financial status is or who you are, being an illegal immigrant is just that. ILLEGAL. So because I busted my hump to be more "priveleged" I should have to bust my a$$ and pay money just so I can legally be with my HUSBAND but they should just open up the mexican border and let the free flow in because they aren't as privileged?

LOL @ from the right country. They didn't exactly roll out the welcome wagon to let me in. I am STILL dealing with immigration. They go through your life with a fine toothed comb. Because I am "more privileged" I should have to deal with that but no one else should because life is tough enough?

The law is the law. Illegal is illegal. If they are going to free up immigration then they need to do it for everyone. not just the mexicans.

And like Lady's Human said, there are plenty of LEGAL immigrants here to came from more poverty than the Illlegal immigrants do. I'm sorry I just don't think that being less privileged is reason enough to be able to break the law. So if I were totally broke would it be OK to evade my taxes? Would it be ok to rob a bank? No one gets hurt right? So you have to pay a few extra bucks to pay for the taxes I'm not paying for but HEY, I am underprivileged.

Edwina's Secretary

08-14-2006, 07:26 PM

sparks19

08-14-2006, 08:19 PM

Sparks...what is with your obsession and antipathy toward Mexicans??? Some left over NAFTA issues. There are illegal immigrants from Russia, Poland, VietNam, China, Canada, and every other country on earth. You seem to have a particular animus toward Mexicans. Every time you use the word "them" I cannot help but wonder....

Sorry I was talking about border security. and it was the hispanics that did the "walk off" back in May I think it was because they wanted them to decide to just let the hispanics become legals. Thats why. Just because the story I was referring to was specifically hispanics.

RICHARD

08-14-2006, 08:54 PM

While we are at it...

Let's get rid of iilegal u-turns, too!

RICHARD

08-15-2006, 12:33 AM

FYI the mormon religion does NOT allow polygamy. If this person has multiple wives, he is not a member of the mormon church.

I was talking about the Evil Mormons....

They don't allow it but......

Ever notice that the religions that begin with the letter "M" are a little off beat?

-----------------------

My choice of religions is the cargo cult!

They worship airplanes-Flying them into buildings is a no no!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

Karen

08-15-2006, 12:36 AM

I was talking about the Evil Mormons....

They don't allow it but......

Ever notice that the religions that begin with the letter "M" are a little off beat?

And what's off-beat about my Methodist church? Come any Sunday, and you'll see we keep the beat very well - and we'll make sure you don't leave hungry afterwards.

RICHARD

08-15-2006, 02:42 AM

And what's off-beat about my Methodist church? Come any Sunday, and you'll see we keep the beat very well - and we'll make sure you don't leave hungry afterwards.

Great.

Another 75 points on my cholesterol score. :eek: ;)

lbaker

08-15-2006, 05:55 AM

Methodists, Muslims, Mormons, Mutts and Mugwumpery! This gets better and better ;) YEA PetTalk :D

Karen

08-15-2006, 02:50 PM

Great.

Another 75 points on my cholesterol score. :eek: ;)

Now, dearie, I didn't say there was bad-for-you food, did I? There's always fruit and other good stuff, as well as the more indulgent goodies ...

gini

08-15-2006, 03:45 PM

Methodists, Muslims, Mormons, Mutts and Mugwumpery! This gets better and better ;) YEA PetTalk :D

So, you have something against the Mennonites? :D

gini

08-15-2006, 03:54 PM

The number of immigrants living in American households rose 16 percent over the last five years, fueled largely by recent arrivals from Mexico, according to fresh data released by the Census Bureau.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There you have it - fresh right off the front page of the New York Times.
So why is it wrong to use the word Mexicans - when our own Census Bureau
states the fact?

Edwina's Secretary

08-15-2006, 08:49 PM

I am reading an interesting book about the Mississippi River. It really is a history of the US in the first half of the 20th Century. Between 1900 and 1915, 15 million immigrants entered the US (there was not a legal vs. illegal issue then) mostly from eastern and southern Europe.

They were not always greeted with open arms. In St Louis a German-American defended Germany in an argument, a mob stripped him naked, wrapped him in an American flag, dragged him through the streets and lynched him.

The Attorney General created the American Protective League...informers who spied on neighbors and coworkers.

In West Virginia, police forced 118 immigrants (members of an early union) to kiss the American flag.

In Centralia, Washington, a union office was attacked and one of the union guys dragged off. He was beaten...all of his "three piece ensemble" cut off. Probably in a bit of pain, he asked the gang to shoot him. They did after they hung him from a bridge. Coroner ruled it suicide.

In Indiana a jury deliberated two minutes and acquitted a man for murdering an immigrant who yelled, "To hell with the United States."

Here in Orange County the Hispanic population has grown 10% in five years, the Asian population has grown 22% in that same time (statistics in this morning's Orange County Register.)

I objected to the use of the word "them."

momoffuzzyfaces

08-15-2006, 09:55 PM

I objected to the use of the word "them."
Just wondering: what would you use instead? :confused:

Lady's Human

08-15-2006, 09:58 PM

Laurie, if you're going to throw in Mugwumps, you CANNOT leave out the Muckrakers!

gini

08-16-2006, 12:47 AM

Laurie, if you're going to throw in Mugwumps, you CANNOT leave out the Muckrakers!

Oh man, and you will be bringing all of these (them) (those) to Thursdays
won't you? :D

Lady's Human

08-16-2006, 11:39 AM

I don't think the mugwumps would enjoy the bar. The muckrakers, on the other hand, would probably love it!

RICHARD

08-16-2006, 01:15 PM

Isn't menopuase a religion too? :confused:

sparks19

08-16-2006, 02:06 PM

and the use of the word "them" is offensive because?

Now I know the world is getting far too PC now I can't even use simple words like them. will I have to start referring to them (sorry I mean THE mexicans) by their entire ancestry?

If I offended you by using the word them then I sincerely apologize. it was not my intention for such a word to be construed as "intolerant"

Edwina's Secretary

08-16-2006, 02:16 PM

I What I do have a problem with is them getting a free ride because they decided not to do it legally.

No, no, no....please let me apologize for thinking that in this sentence you were in any way sterotyping or being negative against any particular group of people.....

Whatever...history keeps repeating itself.

JenBKR

08-16-2006, 02:22 PM

No, no, no....please let me apologize for thinking that in this sentence you were in any way sterotyping or being negative against any particular group of people.....

Whatever...history keeps repeating itself.

Maybe I missed something, but I still don't see the negativity in her using 'them.' It doesn't sound to me like she was referring to a particular group....then again, I'm not worried about being PC anymore because it has gotten absolutely ridiculous, you can't say anything anymore without offending someone, so maybe I'm missing it. Or maybe I just read the whole thing wrong.

sparks19

08-16-2006, 02:34 PM

No, no, no....please let me apologize for thinking that in this sentence you were in any way sterotyping or being negative against any particular group of people.....

Whatever...history keeps repeating itself.

I was referring to a particular group. I was referring to Mexicans specifically because of that whole walk out thing. Do you remember that?

it wasn't just a blatant stab in the dark.

Edwina's Secretary

08-16-2006, 02:47 PM

I was referring to a particular group. I was referring to Mexicans specifically because of that whole walk out thing. Do you remember that?

it wasn't just a blatant stab in the dark.

Yes... a number of my "born in the USA....American citizen" friends participated in it.

Assuming that by....whole walk out thing you mean the May 1 protest demonstration?

You know...I started to type an explanation of what the protest was about, but what's the point? Your mind is made up about them.

RICHARD

08-16-2006, 03:44 PM

Yes... a number of my "born in the USA....American citizen" friends participated in it.

Springsteen Rocks!

Sara.

Thank you for your support of human beings, period.

I walk the line on this issue.

my heart does feel, but my mind is outraged about the abuses to the system and the neighborhoods.

Here in the San Fernando Valley there are areas where there are three families jammed into a single family dwelling.

On the properties adjacent to my house there has been three 'add-ons'......

They are totally illega (buildings)l and I can see that the wiring and plumbing are haphazardly done

One houses a home business where cat scratching post are built.

I have cleaned up trash, bottles, papers and dirty diapers that were tossed over the fence onto my property.

-------------
The families change every few months.

THe kids aren't in school and the property and the sheds added on to the house look worse every time someone new moves in.

Draining the wash water into my yard, tying the clothes line onto the fence and breaking out the boards are not signs of a good neighbors.

The owner of the house has admitted to renting to 'families who are here illegally".

What do I do?

sparks19

08-16-2006, 03:50 PM

Yes... a number of my "born in the USA....American citizen" friends participated in it.

Assuming that by....whole walk out thing you mean the May 1 protest demonstration?

You know...I started to type an explanation of what the protest was about, but what's the point? Your mind is made up about them.

LOL don't judge me and tell me what I think and how I feel. I don't hate mexicans as you apparently would like to believe. I know many and have many mexican friends. HOWEVER, I am sorry but I cannot condone breaking the law no matter if you are black white brown purple green or multicoloured. I don't care. Breaking the law is breaking the law

But please sit back and continue to judge me.

I do NOT agree with giving criminals a free ride to citizenship. Sorry but if that makes me racist or prejudice or whatever else you would like to assume about me then fine but I would feel exactly the same way if my next door neighbour were an illegal immigrant.

They CHOSE to come here illegally. They should suffer the consequences of it not get expedited to citizenship.

And by THEM I mean anyone. Is that offensive to everyone too?

Edwina's Secretary

08-16-2006, 05:58 PM

You see criminals.

I see people, born into grinding poverty, who make a trip that is at times very difficult and dangerous to take a job at the bottom of the barrel ...that no one else wants...to try and survive. In a place where they aren't always welcome.

Like one of the woman at the nail salon I go to. I don't know if she is legal or illegal. She told me once she was an accountant "back home" but the poverty is such...she wants more for her children...so she cuts the toenails of other women.

I see a guest worker program as a possible solution to what could be a very ugly situation on our southern border.

And I do not see a man serving five years in prison for a crime he did not commit as "just desserts."

momoffuzzyfaces

08-16-2006, 06:03 PM

Your mind is made up about them.
Ok, please explain to me why it's ok for you to use "them" but not the rest of us? Just wondering? :confused:

By the way, I have no problem with a guest worker program.

mugsy

08-16-2006, 06:33 PM

I am absolutely appalled that our government pays the way of so many illegal immigrants and has agreed to pay them Social Security (which is a benefit of American CITIZENS) and their medical care, etc. I don't care if they are white, black, brown, or green with pink stripes, if they are here illegally then they (the illegal immigrants from where ever) should be deported until such time that they can do it right. If the illegals are unwilling to do it correctly, and take the easy way out, then they need to stay where they came from until such time that they are willing to follow the steps.

As far as the May 1 walkout, we sort of giggled about it at school because it made no real difference and it didn't make a difference in business either. And the mere thought of the Mexican students in CO bringing down the American flag and running Mexican flag up the flagpole at their school about put me over the edge. IF they have such allegiance to Mexico, then STAY THERE.

However, as I said before, with the original reason for this thread, the man deserves some sort of compensation from our government since we are the people who wrongfully imprisoned him for 5 years.

Edwina's Secretary

08-16-2006, 07:33 PM

Ok, please explain to me why it's ok for you to use "them" but not the rest of us? Just wondering? :confused:

By the way, I have no problem with a guest worker program.

it was sarcasm MOFF...but you can certainly use any words you want to use!

sparks19

08-16-2006, 10:19 PM

You see criminals.

FACT (Black Letter LAW)

I see people, born into grinding poverty, who make a trip that is at times very difficult and dangerous to take a job at the bottom of the barrel ...that no one else wants...to try and survive. In a place where they aren't always welcome.

OPINION

Please note that if these "poor souls" came to this country LEGALLY, they would not have to live such a "hard life".

Like it or not, this is a world of absolutes. When we as a society begin to blur the line....

Like one of the woman at the nail salon I go to. I don't know if she is legal or illegal. She told me once she was an accountant "back home" but the poverty is such...she wants more for her children...so she cuts the toenails of other women.

I see a guest worker program as a possible solution to what could be a very ugly situation on our southern border.

And I do not see a man serving five years in prison for a crime he did not commit as "just desserts."

I also know a couple that were veterinarians in Columbia and they came to Canada LEGALLY (which is just as hard as getting to the States) and now they are cleaners in an apartment building. It sucks, but if they could do it legally then anyone can.

Now please tell me why you think ONLY the southern border should be awarded these special treatments. Why doesn't everyone deserve this? How do you know I didn't come from poverty? Just because I am from Canada? So if someone were to rob your house you wouldn't press charges if they were "under privileged" ? (In MY house, they would leave with more holes than they come in with.... Sorry, but I do not have time to run a credit check on a home intruder.) They deserve to take your hard earned money because they don't make as much as you? If this isn't how you really feel then I don't see how you can support illegal immigration. They wouldn't have to do these crap jobs if they had come here legally and were able to apply for a "regular" job. Again, coming to America illegally is CHOICE. They have the choice to come here legally or illegally. They made the wrong choice. Why should we reward that? You are pro CHOICE aren't you? Why do I not deserve to come here to LIVE with my husband without having to pay all that money and having to fill out all that paper work? Because I am white? Because I don't come from hardship? Why? Tell me. Why do they deserve to be happy when they broke the law and I deserve to pay all the money and go through the stress because I "chose" my husband. Why punish the fruits of our labour? Because I busted my a$$ to be with my husband I don't deserve it? Success should not be punished, it should be rewarded. Success isn't given out, it is earned. I think it is WRONG WRONG WRONG to give people special treatment because they don't make as much money as I do. I WORKED (LEGALLY) to get where I am. Why does that make me a bad person? Why does THAT put me in the position to be judged by YOU?

Like I said earlier... This is a world of absolute TRUTH. You may spin it as you wish but history does not lie.

A thin line there is between Law and Chaos. Our society depends on the rule of law. The more that area is greyed out.... How do YOU plan to defend yourself when law and order fails? Will you run to the "poor and oppressed" you so vainly defend?

I wait eagerly for your spin.

P.S.- No where in this thread did I say he deserved 5 years in prison. All I said was that he technically was a criminal (despite your "views" on the LAW) I even said that he may not have deserved what he got and he deserves restitution HOWEVER I think HIS country should pay for it.

P.S.S- Do you know what Mexico does to their illegal immigrants?

Edwina's Secretary

08-17-2006, 11:34 AM

The problem with absolutes is they are so ...well absolute.

For example....a man driving his in-labor wife to the hospital is speeding. Cop stops him....absolute says....detain him, write up ticket, etc.

Another example....kind and gentle man loves cats...hates suffering. He provides a home for many otherwise homeless cats...more than the law allows. Has them spayed or neutered...feeds them, provides them with proper vet care. He loves them while they live and mourns them when they die. Absolute says....must obey the law....cats over the limit have to go!

I see circumstances in both of these situations that suggest compassion, understanding and something more than absolute.

To me, the world is far more complex than absolute allows.

lizbud

08-17-2006, 12:16 PM

Better be careful Sara, your wisdom is showing. Bravo. :D

Killearn Kitties

08-17-2006, 12:17 PM

To me, the world is far more complex than absolute allows.
Absolutely!

:D :D

Cataholic

08-17-2006, 12:52 PM

P.S.S- Do you know what Mexico does to their illegal immigrants?

While in general, I have some issues with what seems to be your lack of compassion towards others, it is this statement that I select specifically.

This is somewhat of the 'problem'. A country that does such a thing to their illegals is not to be congratulated, or, be held up as some example. And, maybe, just maybe, some of the people crossing our borders are attempting to escape such a country for reasons like this.

While it is one thing to say, "you can only come here if you do it 'legally'", it is quite another to consider the people for which this is virtually an impossible task. I just don't see it so simply as you do. You seem to think that, "If they would only just try, they could do it". I don't think that is accurate.

For me, I just can't look at the world without compassion and empathy. While I don't claim to have the answers to any of life's problems, I don't walk around without knowing how very priviledged and fortunate I am to have been born an American. (which is not to mean I am disrespecting any other country, or, thinking that if you are not American, you aren't anyone. Just recognizing I live a pretty priviledged life, and haven't walked a half inch in anyone else's shoes.)

Randi

08-17-2006, 12:55 PM

Well, I don't know that much about American history, but I know that most of the people living there are immigrants - or at least your ancestors are. I have not checked what the laws was like then, but I believe that when those people came to USA, they were given a piece of land and started from scratch to build houses and find work. Were they legal or illegal? I think that they felt a lot more welcome than today's immigrants!

The world has grown since, and some people are born in very poor places. :( Shouldn't they be entitled to a good life too? They are certainly not reluctant to take sh!t jobs!

John and I have travelled a few times to Dominican Republic, and although the tour guides recommended people not to go. John went to Haiti to see what life was like there. He filmed quite a lot, and also mixed with the locals (he had learned a few sentences in Creole, which helped him having an entirely different experience), while the rest of the group followed the guide, and in fact was scared of the population. :rolleyes: When he came back to our hotel and told me how people were living there, I cried.

I have a feeling that a lot of Americans haven't travelled very much and seen what the world is like other places. Seeing things in real life often change your point of view I think. Recently, I saw a documentary about North Africans trying to get to Spain in small boats - it was heartbreaking! I would not have survived half the journey!

The immigration laws are changing all the time, and I think they need some adjusting now, to give everyone a fair chance to make a decent living. However, when a person comes to another country, he/she should make an effort to adjust to that country's rules and not try to convert the population to the rules they're used to.

Of course, the best solution would be to teach people in poor countries how to survive and build what is needed. Less children would help too.

momoffuzzyfaces

08-17-2006, 01:22 PM

Too bad we can't stop fighting wars and start helping other countries build up their economies so people wouldn't be so despirate they feel they have to leave, even if it breaks other countries laws.

Too bad some of our local programs for seniors and the low income have had to be canceled because the government can't afford to help it's own people any more either. I know lots of seniors who depend on some of those programs that no longer exist. (the programs, not the seniors) :(

jackie

08-17-2006, 01:42 PM

I have been biting my tongue for ages, but I cannot hold it back anymore.

Sparks, you need to get a grip. You married an American, and are now working towards your citizenship. Great, I really hope you get it soon. I am just shocked by your lack of compassion for other people who do not have the means to go your route, and that you can not acknowledge you are privileged coming from Canada.

Please note that if these "poor souls" came to this country LEGALLY, they would not have to live such a "hard life".

I guess you don’t have any idea what sort of life that they left behind.

Why do I not deserve to come here to LIVE with my husband without having to pay all that money and having to fill out all that paper work? Because I am white? Because I don't come from hardship? Why?

No one is questioning your right to be in the States, in fact I have only seen people congratulating you. I am just amazed you cannot see the difference between yourself and someone who has no other chance to enter the US, except illegally.

I have been in Spain for 4 years, and have been processing my paperwork for all of that time. I am still not fully legal, and have spent thousands of euros and hours making these papers. Every week boats come here to Gran Canaria, filled with Africans, trying to enter Europe illegally. They come in huge numbers, run ashore with only the clothes on their back, after spend weeks living in their own sh*t and p*ss., in some cargo hold. Many claim refugee status, and get provisional residency within months. Even more simply disappear. Do I resent them or envy them for it? Not at all, I just wish all of them could be so lucky.

sparks19

08-17-2006, 02:06 PM

Claiming refugee status and just hopping the border are two totally different things.

I am sorry that you all see me as having no compassion but the law is very clear.

I am sorry but there are far to many poverty stricken people in the US already who are legal. I think we should use our resources to help THEM. The people in this country who live on the street, who can't feed their families, the starving children.

I think we should fix the poverty problem here before offering to fix someone else's.

I never EVER once said that I did not recognize that I was privileged to be from Canada. I just simply stated that how do you KNOW I was not living in poverty. how do you know I wasn't living on the street? Canada has poverty and so does the US. You just assume that because I am not from Mexico that I had all the means readily available to me.

Like I said, you want compassion. I have compassion for the people who can't get any help from their own country because they are too busy with someone else's poverty.

I am sorry you don't see it this way but I think we should be helping our own people get on their feet, once that happens then we can work on saving the southside of the border.

I just can't see not helping our own people who are law abiding (for the most part lol) in favour of helping illegals.

And Jackie if you have something to say just say it. What is the point in "biting your tongue" if you have something to say about something you believe in then you should say it. YOU are not going to hurt my feelings by standing up for what you believe in and I don't think you are going to hurt anyone else's either. YOU should ALWAYS stand up for what you believe in, not just sit in the background wishing you had said something.

RAndi You cannot compare immigrants 100 years ago to immigration NOW. Times are way to different for them to be compared. it is like comparing apples and oranges.

Cataholic

08-17-2006, 02:40 PM

I just simply stated that how do you KNOW I was not living in poverty. how do you know I wasn't living on the street? Canada has poverty and so does the US. You just assume that because I am not from Mexico that I had all the means readily available to me.

Your posts could not come from someone that had known such dire straits. And, you had means available to you, as you wouldn't be here if you did not. (I hardly consider living apart from one's recently married spouse dire straits).

There isn't any law that one must have empathy. You are free to make your judgments, as are all of us. But, I would hope that you would recognize the image you leave behind with your message.

sparks19

08-17-2006, 02:46 PM

Your posts could not come from someone that had known such dire straits. And, you had means available to you, as you wouldn't be here if you did not. (I hardly consider living apart from one's recently married spouse dire straits).

There isn't any law that one must have empathy. You are free to make your judgments, as are all of us. But, I would hope that you would recognize the image you leave behind with your message.

Who's to say that my husband didn't save me from dire straits? :D

Anyway

to be honest. I don't really care about my "image" I believe what I believe and everyone else can make their assumptions from there. I don't live my life and believe what I do worrying about what others might think of me. There are ways for refugees to come to the US. Many have done it, many others can do it, they just choose not to.

I am sorry, I do NOT condone illegal immigration for anyone and if that makes me a bad person in your eyes well then so be it. There have been many refugees that have come from FAR worse conditions than Mexico and yet they are legal :eek:

mugsy

08-17-2006, 05:46 PM

At the risk of sounding callous to PTers...are we saying EVERYONE should be able to come here and live and have all the rights of American citizens without becoming a citizen? I guess I'm a bit confused...I'm proud to be an American, but feel that everyone who wants to come here needs to process properly! I welcome anyone who comes here and follows proper procedures, but, this other crap is for the birds....

As for U.S. History...yes, we were all, at some point, immigrants, with the exception of Native Americans, however, we were subjects of Britain (or Holland, or Germany, or Sweden, etc). When we fought the American Revolution and gained our independence, we wrote the Articles of Confederation (which were basically useless) and then scrapped those and wrote the Constitution and we became the United States of America. At that point there were immigration laws put into place, and while they have changed over time, we still use them today in order to keep our country safe and not over run with masses of humanity.

ylrebmik

08-17-2006, 06:09 PM

coming in a bit late here but...

I hate how people can come to our country and not pay taxes for 5 years. It sucks. And I hate how people come up with little organizations to go up against A CHRISTMAS TREE.. give me a break. Also, it annoys me so much how juries work. They put the stupidest people on those things. "Hey, some girl was being dumb and got burned from mcdonalds coffee while driving... let's make someone being stupid rich!" Everything is becoming a scam and if it isn't a scam- it is prejudice. Religion, color, race, doesn't matter. I just had a talk with someone the other day how it's like a white person is becoming the minority and others are being pitied more. Ya, whites did a lot of harm to indians, blacks, etc. but do they need to STILL be paid off? Immigants... why can't they just become a citizen if they hate thier country so much? I don't pity what happened to him because of what happened but i don't agree with what did happen. But then again.. it leads me back to "juries, scams, and prejudice" The juries got him in jail, the parents were scamming and someone out of that (or more) were prejudice. I think the government is going down the drain and something has to be done... or we are just getting stupider. Some of the things are up to the jury people (this one might have) so in a waay... americans could have put him in jail. Americans are using pity and scam to destory eachother. Its sad and i know this is heading off topic.. very... but yeah i'm disgusted with how my country is run sometimes.. even though i hate all governments practically. Systems don't work.

More for people coming here- they can come here all they want but i agree with mugsy- go through it properly.

Also, as long as i am ranting about the government, i do not agree with us being "police of the world" I mean as great as it is, look what happened in Star Wars. The jedi's were the peace keepers and then they turned and killed them off! Now there are people trying to blow planes up through explosives in LIQUID! I wonder when we will learn to keep off and HELP keep peace- not control it.

Alright i can go on forever so i'll stop. But sentence about the actual thread: I don't pity him but i don't agree with what happened.

lbaker

08-18-2006, 06:08 AM

huh? :confused:

jackie

08-18-2006, 07:13 AM

At the risk of sounding callous to PTers...are we saying EVERYONE should be able to come here and live and have all the rights of American citizens without becoming a citizen? I guess I'm a bit confused...I'm proud to be an American, but feel that everyone who wants to come here needs to process properly! I welcome anyone who comes here and follows proper procedures, but, this other crap is for the birds....

Not what I am saying at all.

It was more in response to the few people who feel this man was there illegally and therfore shouldn't be entitled to free legal representation/he is a criminal and deserved jail time.

I don't know, for me it is a touchy subject because I personally know a lot of illegal immigrants here, and they would jump atthe chance to do everything above board. :(

Vio&Juni

08-18-2006, 09:49 AM

There aren't any poor people in the United States or in Canada.

JenBKR

08-18-2006, 09:54 AM

There aren't any poor people in the United States or in Canada.

:confused: Was that sarcastic? Or are you asking? I sure hope you weren't serious!

Vio&Juni

08-18-2006, 10:31 AM

JenBKR, that is exactly the response I was expecting. It's the same I feel when I see phrases like "if they would do it properly". I am sure people don't even know what they are talking about.

Do people really think that you can go to e.g. US Embassy in Moldova and say - I want to be an American citizen? Yes, a lot of Moldovans did get the settlement visa, but most of them were married to American citizens, just like Sparks - that is not immigration - that is a settlement visa for a wife (husband) that can give you the right to apply for citizenship after a few years. But, then again, if your marriage fails you're expected to go back to your country.

People can't go to the US embassy and say "I want to move to the US and live there, and become a citizen because life is better there". But people still want a better life for themselves and for their children and they find ways to get there, maybe with a legal visitor visa, overstaying, maybe crossing the border illegally. The problem exists and it will exist and if you toughen the rules, it just doesn't help cutting down illegal immigration - it will only help the facilitators - prices for their services will go up and the illegal immigrants will just suffer more humiliations when trying to cross the border. Believe me. I come from a country where 1/4 of the country is working abroad illegally. We have huge problems with people trafficking and even organ selling.

My point here is that by shouting loud "I could do it, why can't others do it like me?" it's impossible to solve this problem. The solution isn't simple, it's just as complicated as the problem.

To be understood correctly, I do not say that illegal immigration is good. I never did in this thread. I did say I don't think it is a crime, because by our legislation crime is something related to homicide, we have another word for minor deliquencies. It is illegal. What I tried to say was that people like to point fingers without even trying to understand the situation.

Let's do the following - check the website of the International Organisation for Migration (or any other organisation that deals with migration, BBC website might have some links to some websites) and see for yourselves how sophisticated is this problem and what solutions have been found for illegal immigration in different parts of the world. See the horror people go through to get to a better place and then tell me again "it's a free ride".

BTW, I don't think there is a better place than my country. I'd never leave my country if it was just for a better quality life.

JenBKR

08-18-2006, 10:40 AM

JenBKR, that is exactly the response I was expecting. It's the same I feel when I see phrases like "if they would do it properly". I am sure people don't even know what they are talking about.

Gottcha, for a second I was afraid that you may actually believe that everyone here is rich, which is so far from the truth. I tend to not weigh in too much about the immigration issue personally because I can see both sides. Dang, wouldn't life be easier if everyone just loved everyone and anyone could just go wherever they want? In a perfect world.......

sparks19

08-18-2006, 07:15 PM

well again all I have to say is I know people who come from far worse countries than mexico (Somalia for example, they can't even eat without flies being all over their food even in restaurants where the "wealthy" people go)

I know people who came from FAR worse conditions that make Mexico look like freaking Club Med. they managed to become legals why is it so difficult to expect people to go through a process. So all the time they have been working illegally in the States what have they done with the money earned? they should spend it on immigration to become legals. I just hate seeing in the news a bunch of bleeding hearts crying because some lady is being deported after living in the States Illegally for 30 years. In that 30 years she never had an opportunity to go through the process? I am sorry I just can't see your point of view.

I started my immigration BEFORE I was married. now that I am married I have to fill out a whole new set of papers. Don't tell me I don't understand how immigration works. I have been doing it for a long time now and I am still not half way done. it sucks. But if you are going to let anyone come in without going through the process then you should allow EVERYONE to do it.

Edwina's Secretary

08-18-2006, 09:14 PM

Just curious Sparky....have you ever been to Mexico...or Somalia?

sparks19

08-18-2006, 11:03 PM

I have not personally been there but my husband was deployed to Somalia for a year and he has LOTS of pictures. he had to live their "lifestyle" for a year. Not quite as bad as they did because he was there with the army but he could not eat food without eating a couple 10 or 20 flies. They eventually learned to just eat with their eyes closed and just give a quick blow on their food before they stuffed it in their mouths. I trust what my husband tells me

I also know MANY people from Somalia and they all tell me the same.

I have been to mexico. Mexico in real life does NOT compare to Somalia even in pictures. Have you?

LOL P.S - how did you know sparky is my real nickname :D LOL I love it

Vio&Juni

08-18-2006, 11:07 PM

I never mentioned any country, nor Mexico, neither Somalia. Do you think a Somalian can get a Green Card? Most of them came and stayed illegally in the first place and then tried to get a refugee status, which again is not real immigration.

Just out of interest, you said you started your immigration process before you married. Was it a fiancee visa that you applied for?

Karen

08-18-2006, 11:20 PM

Edwina's Secretary

08-19-2006, 12:08 AM

I went to school in Mexico the summer I turned 16. I lived and worked in Mexico years later for two years as an expatriate. I have also vacationed there many times. Trust me when I say...vacationing there is NOTHING like living there.

I have been to Africa, but not to Somalia.

mugsy

08-19-2006, 08:11 AM

I don't know, for me it is a touchy subject because I personally know a lot of illegal immigrants here, and they would jump atthe chance to do everything above board. :(

Then why are they not doing it??? Just asking...not trying to be nasty.

I just think that we need to have better border control...on both borders and stiffer penalites for those who come here illegally.

I think we need to take care of our own first and then help others. I know if I lived like some of the people in the back hills of Appalachia and KNEW how much aid was going overseas and I wasn't getting any of it, I would be beyond livid. :mad:

Edwina's Secretary

08-19-2006, 10:57 AM

I think we need to take care of our own first and then help others. I know if I lived like some of the people in the back hills of Appalachia and KNEW how much aid was going overseas and I wasn't getting any of it, I would be beyond livid. :mad:

Yes...just think if we weren't in Iraq helping them establish a new government what we could do with that money here at home....New Orleans.....etc.

sparks19

08-19-2006, 11:35 AM

Sparks19, from where are you emmigrating? Canada?

I know the rules are different from different countries, even the ones that border the US.

I worked with two young women, J and K.

J's mother was a Canadian by birth, her father was American.
K's mother was a Mexican by birth, her father was American.
Both mothers were legal immigrants, and had dual citizenship.
Both girls were born on US soil, spent time living in both countries as children, but most of their time in the US.

When J turned 18, she was granted dual citizenship.
When K turned 18, she had to officially chose - she could have American citizenship, or Mexican citizenship, but not dual citizenship.

Interesting, huh?

That is very interesting. Yes I immigrated from Canada. My husband was told that if he immigrated to Canada and then became a citizen that the US would make him give up his US citizenship after a certain amount of time. I don't know how true that is but I thought that was very strange.

Vio&Juni, No it was not a fiancee visa. I originally started with trying to get a work visa and then work towards permanent residency. But when we got married all of the work I had done was null and void. Getting married changed my status in the US. NOW, If I had come here gotten married and not returned to Canada (which is perfectly legal) I could have processed my papers from here but I would not be allowed to leave the country until it was done.

You see you don't have to get a greencard to be a legal citizen. Especially before 9/11. you can get permanent residency or you can get a K visa which will allow you to live and work in the states and process your citizenship papers from here. I don't have my green card. I am not even close to getting it. But I am a legal resident. I haven't even started filing the papers for my green card. THAT IS immigration.

What do you think immigration is? apparently you and I have two totally different views on how immigration works. you do NOT have to stay in your country until you have your green card. They have processes to allow you to come here and work here until you can file your citizenship papers. YOu don't even HAVE to file for citizenship if you don't want to. you can just file forms to be a legal resident. You pay taxes, you can work, you can come and go as you please but you are NOT granted citizenship. Many people do that because I know sometimes the US will make you choose citizenship. Like I said my husband can be a legal resident in Canada and keep his US citizenship but if he becomes a Canadian citizen the US will make him choose just one.

Edwina, I know vacationing is not the same. They told us at the resort that we shouldn't wander too far. well we did anyway. I can't tell you where exactly we ended up but it was very seedy. But they had homes and no one looked like they were starving to death.

My hubby has been to 32 countries and some of the places just look like a wasteland. Dirty water, flies everywhere, constant sand storms, the people were starving. No real shelter, only make shift homes that threatened to fall everytime a sandstorm passed through.

I talk about immigration with everyone I can. They are more helpful to me than any lawyer or INS officer. I hear the different processes people had to go through depending on where they were from and what they were coming to US/Canada for.

P.S- Vio&juni Have you gone through the immigration process? spousal immigration or otherwise?

Edwina's Secretary

08-19-2006, 11:50 AM

Edwina, I know vacationing is not the same. They told us at the resort that we shouldn't wander too far. well we did anyway. I can't tell you where exactly we ended up but it was very seedy. But they had homes and no one looked like they were starving to death.

And which government would you have expected to bail you out if you had gotten in trouble by not following directions? Would it have been the Mexican government's responsiblity or the US or the Canadian?

Some countries allow dual citizenship some do not. The concept is when you pledge allegiance to a country you cannot still have allegiance to another country. Most people who have two passports do not have them offically. (I.E. they were born to parents of one country in another country.) Often the problem comes up in countries with manatory military service. Serving in another country's military is a big no-no.

Canada and the US have some special arrangements under NAFTA that allow workers in some specialities to work "on the other side" without the so-called green card. There are also H1B's and student practical work visas.

sparks19

08-19-2006, 12:07 PM

And which government would you have expected to bail you out if you had gotten in trouble by not following directions? Would it have been the Mexican government's responsiblity or the US or the Canadian?

Some countries allow dual citizenship some do not. The concept is when you pledge allegiance to a country you cannot still have allegiance to another country. Most people who have two passports do not have them offically. (I.E. they were born to parents of one country in another country.) Often the problem comes up in countries with manatory military service. Serving in another country's military is a big no-no.

Canada and the US have some special arrangements under NAFTA that allow workers in some specialities to work "on the other side" without the so-called green card. There are also H1B's and student practical work visas.

It would have been the Canadian governments responsibility. I am a Canadian citizen. If something were to happen and I, say, went to jail or something I think it would be Canadas responsibility to provide me with legal counsel or have me sent back to Canada to await sentencing there. I pay taxes there (well not now because I'm not living there lol but at the time I was). As for injury, I have travel insurance (it was either that or they wrap me up in styrofoam because I am dangerous to myself lol). so no concern there.

My hubby tried to come to Canada and work there but because of his skill set it was very difficult for him to find a job as a network architect. however it was quite easy for me to get a work Visa here. I don't know if it was because I don't have a specific skill set or what but I know it can be difficult if you have a very specific and very popular career. Everyone is an IT person these days lol.

RICHARD

08-19-2006, 12:53 PM

can we deport this thread? ;)

sparks19

08-19-2006, 01:07 PM

can we deport this thread? ;)

Sounds good to me

I have seen what Edwina's Secretary does to people she disagrees with :eek:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid210/p60c31fc8e7be756db50faf9b9b0391ad/edcfbe17.jpg

lbaker

08-19-2006, 01:07 PM

amen RICHARD, amen.. unless that too is bias toward a religious bent :rolleyes:

Vio&Juni

08-19-2006, 01:39 PM

You see you don't have to get a greencard to be a legal citizen. Especially before 9/11. you can get permanent residency or you can get a K visa which will allow you to live and work in the states and process your citizenship papers from here.

I know it's not only Green Card that allows you to stay there. What you explained works for you, as a Canadian. Nationals of other countries would not be allowed to work in the US and get legal residency. They would have to enter the country either illegally and find a way to legalise their stay or legally as a visitor and change their status, but you understand that is illegal too - you have to enter the country with the proper visa.

They have processes to allow you to come here and work here until you can file your citizenship papers. YOu don't even HAVE to file for citizenship if you don't want to. you can just file forms to be a legal resident. You pay taxes, you can work, you can come and go as you please but you are NOT granted citizenship.

No national of any country is granted citizenship immediatelly, you need the permanent residency for a few years.

I hear the different processes people had to go through depending on where they were from and what they were coming to US/Canada for.

P.S- Vio&juni Have you gone through the immigration process? spousal immigration or otherwise?

I mentioned earlier that I have worked for a Visa Section - not US, another one.