50+ rats OH MY hehe

[king2005]

well all the female ratties are tubby lol.. I'm expecting all to pop in about 1-2 weeks time.. the Avg litter is about 12.. so thats 60 babies, but I'm expecting closer to 50.. Don't want more then 60 as hearing 60+ squeeks gets a little loud at night lol

My friend get first pick from the litters & shes all excited.. I'm thinking of keeping 1 girl & 1 boy so they'll bond better with Shawn.. with the 5 shy girls, they scare him a little

[king2005]

Oh, almost forgot to ask.. Whats up with my 1 female attacking 2 other females? the other 2 don't bother her, she'll run up to them, do an agressive stand & then attack.. she leaves the other females alone & the male alone.. why these 2?

I'm taking her out tonight as she was at it again this morning

[Chilli]

Wow, did I miss something? :D Are you breeding rats or were the females already pregnant when you got them? And I thought the seven rats I have now were enough, I can't imagine having more than 50!

And the bully female might just be showing them she's dominant, though I have also heard that some females just don't like being around others when they are pregnant.

[Miss Z]

If all the females are pregnant, seperate them all. They will NOT like each other being pregnant as all their hormones are up (hate to use the phrase 'ratty':rolleyes: ), and once litters arrive there will be pandamonium (sp?). It is not uncommon for rats to kill and eat other litters, and even mothers may slaughter their own young in protection from other rats.

[My Peanuts]

The male should be separated too (if he isn’t already). I had a gerbil pair where the dad actually helped out, but a lot of the time the father will eat the babies.

[molucass]

If you have the male in with the females, as soon as they give birth, they can get pregnant again. It is not good for their health to have litters back to back, so I would remove him from the girls cage as soon as possible.

[king2005]

I had 10 rat 5yrs ago & none of the females were "ratty" & never had a fight! My males (only had 1 male at a time) were never removed & they just kept the babies warm while momma was eatting. or they babied the mice.

My females always had babies at the sametime & they all shared in motherly duties as a team. I never knew which babies came from who, but that wasn't important as long as the mothers cared for them. More times then anything 1 of the mothers would refuse any care for her babies & the other rats took over & she would hang out with my male.

I'm only worried about the fighting casue of all the rats I've had, not 1 ever fought with another & This one isn't very nice to only 2 other females (shes fine with the other rats, just not these 2). When the mothers are getting closer to popping, I'll remove the male for a couple weeks, so the babies can grow to the size I need.

I don't trust Grissim with the young as hes a hungry greedy bugger & the females don't seem to like him too much at all, as they refuse to groom him & they wont sleep in the hanging basket with him.. all 5 girls will cram into the 1 small hanging basket together.. Poor Vodka's nose is all you can ever see lol
I don't think Grissim will be around for too long, as his health isn't the greatest.. I rescued him & he was origionally from a feeder breeder that imbreed the rats really bad, so little I can do to help him, except put him down when his body starts to fail. His brother is already dead.. I know the females are healthy as I worked at the store they came from. When I go for a road trip in a few months, I think I'll stop at a random petstore & pick up a male rat so the chances of having more young survive are better.

[molucass]

What is the purpose of you breeding the rats anyway? What if you cannot find homes for ALL of those babies? Are you going to keep them, or sell them as feeders, or return them to the pet store, where they will probably just be sold as feeders?

You said that the male was an inbred mess and that would in turn make the babies unhealthy... I just dont understand the reasoning.

The females may be healthy now, but if you keep breeding them over and over again without a break, then they will not be healthy.

My suggestions is to get 2 males this time from the pet store, so he will have a buddy, and keep them away from the females.

[jackie]

Do you have homes lined up for them all?

That is excessive... to say the least.

[Aspen and Misty]

I'm confused; did I miss the thread telling the whole story? Are you purposely breeding them or did the females come pregnant? Who is the father? Are these rats food for someone?

Ashley

[molucass]

There was another thread she posted saying she was breeding them on purpose. She has a male in the cage with all of the females that shes bred them to.


are you going to breed them?


opps, missed that question & its a yes...
=======
Don't bother starting a flame war, one was started 6yrs ago, so if you can see that far back look under my old username if your that interested.


I am not trying to start a flame war, I'm just curious, thats the reason I asked the questions I had asked.

[Aspen and Misty]

I don't think Grissim will be around for too long, as his health isn't the greatest.. I rescued him & he was origionally from a feeder breeder that imbreed the rats really bad,

I do not understand why you would breed a rat that is inbreed and has medical issues. It is no way responsible breeding, just breeding for the heck of it and ending up with babies with terrible medical issues who are inbred. It seems that this new babies will not bring anything with them but medical issues and a short life span. I guess my main thing is back yard breeders of dogs who do no testing on there dog's and breeds "just because" not to better the breed is something almost everyone on here is against (most likely yourself also) and many people call them back yard breeders. So I don't see how it is justified to breed a rat that has known medical issues and is inbred, these babies will not do anything for future rats or themselves. You also state that you do not expect many rats of the litter to survive......


I think I'll stop at a random petstore & pick up a male rat so the chances of having more young survive are better.

This statement also bothers me because it makes it seem like you aren't going to try to find a good quality male (as far as genes go). And hey. Maybe I am wrong on the you getting a new male. I don't know as it was not stated how you will choose a new male just that you are going to stop at random pet stores to pick up a male rat.

It also concerns me that you have bred so many females that at one time you will have 50 babies. How will you find them all homes? Are you going to sell them for food?

On a last note I also want to add, I am in no way against RESPONSIBL breeding of any kind of animal. However it is the way you are going about it that bothers me. And maybe I have the whole situation wrong, if I do, I hope you will sign on and clarify.

[jackie]

I think I'll stop at a random petstore & pick up a male rat so the chances of having more young survive are better.


I totally missed this comment. :(

[Jods]

Oh yeah wanted to add I got 2 ratty babies from a women whose rat was pregnant when she got her she got pregnant in the petstore. Well one of the babies dies before she was even one year old and the reason bad breeding. I had to indure my pet dying because a stupid petstore owner didn't educate himself. The sad part is he makes money off these sick rats and all us petowners indure tragedy :(

[Miss Z]

I am very concerned about this :( I was a little concerned about the fact that all these rats are housed together, and so far I've just heard negative comments about these rats. Now as 50+ rats are on their way....:(

And even though you have had rats in the past who didn't fight, that doesn't mean they won't fight this time.

[finn's mom]

I'm just now seeing this thread, as pet general isn't a place I stop often. I haven't been able to post pictures of the fish I have now, so, I haven't had much to say. But, I came on to see this...and, wow. I am very interested to hear the reasoning behind this. Maybe we're all misunderstanding, but, it does sound like it's being done irresponsibly. And, that's just sad for the rats. :(

[lilspaz68]

Mmmkay where to start.
Lets start with 5 mommas and 1 inbred male. All the mothers can get pregnant 24 hours of giving birth, very very bad for them. If you don't separate the sexes of the rats by 5 weeks you will have A LOT more pregnant females. You could end up with 100's! If you don't have a lot of room in your cage that could be the reason that the one female is aggressive..they will fight if they are cramped. Here is a cage calculator...punch in your dimensions and it will tell you how many rats can comfortably (and be healthy) in your cage...
http://www.fancy-rats.co.uk/information/habitat/cagecalculator/
I noticed on another thread you said your rats had lice. Rats have very sensitive respiratory systems and those "fumes" could really damage their lung tissue...worst treatment ever IMO...probably pushed by the salespeople at petstores who sell salt wheels, etc to unsuspecting ratowners, and who know nothing about the care of rats! I use kitten Revolution, one drop and they are gone.

[lv4dogs]

I too am interested in hearing the reasoning behind all this.

Why are you breeding them, especially seeing that some are unhealthy.

I used to be a reputable rat breeder and I am very sorry Jess, but the way you are going about it seems all wrong to me. I hope I just read something wrong or the like, but I am very concerned.

[king2005]

And even though you have had rats in the past who didn't fight, that doesn't mean they won't fight this time.

Thats why I asked about her fighting, it was not normal as to what my other rats did.

Yes the babies are feeders.

No they wont go homeless.

Didn't know Grissim was imbreed. He just looked hungry. Hes a fat ratty now & lice free, but the old owner told me after I breed him that he is really imbreed (After I told her about the lice & wasn't happy)... I knew his hank mate was imbreed, but not Grissim too.

Why will I go to a random pet store & get a new male?
To make sure he isn't related to the females (I'm not into imbreed aminals & have driven 60km before to pick up unrelated male rats.. this time it'll be 500km) & will pick a healthy clean looking male rat.

The old owner gets first pick of the litters that are being born, as that was the agreement we had made (I have no choice to follow through). I have decided (was thinking while looking at the cage lastnight) to put Grissim down (I'll tell the old owner that I woke up to him dead) after the litters are born & to try to find a new male sooner (if not I'll wait until my trip in Aug).

I do enjoy giving rats away for "free", but NOT imbreed rats (well years ago I accidently breed the wrong male "mouse" & I refused to give any of those away or let them live, I kept them for personal feeders).

I am strict when it comes to imbreeding, YUCK! I was hoping to bring some (not too many as I need them for my personal stock) of these litters into the ma & pop pet store near my place for credits (will use it to buy the fancy shavings(aspen is what I use) & fancy foods). Its a very clean pet store & they don't want trash pets in there, so they would be angry if I gave them imbreed rats (don't blame them at all, I'd be angry too & am).

No I don't breed for money! I could use all the babies for myself, but if others want a pet (well not from this litter, only the non-imbreed litters) then they'll get it for free. If a store wants healthy feeders then I'll give a few to them for credits to help in paying for all the costs.

My cage is HUGE. its an XL rabbit cage (I don't use tanks, as that promotes lung issues which can = death & lots of pain (not good!).

I feed the best foods I can get. I feed (forget the brand) this food that has all sorts of different things in it, fruits, veggies, seeds, grains, rat blocks, & so much more. I also feed cat food (made sure there was no BHT & BHA crap in it!!). However I'll be switching it to Nutro puppy or kitten (depending on the size I can get) kibble, for the next bag as its the best, IMO. I also give them 12 grain bread as a treat, & veggies. They had a little banana milk shake last weekend in their mini water bottle (1/4 full) & got a little piece of hotdog each last night.

They have 2 hanging baskets in their cage (I made them), 1 ice cube holder thing (it acts like a basket) & 2 pop boxes (case of 12) to hide in.

For the food dish, I'm using a large dog's ceramic bowl...so if all rats wanted to eat at once they can without pushing the other out of the way & it helps to make sure I don't run out of food (I don't fill it, I just cover the bottom with the kibble & some alfalfa (sp?). I have a rabbit dish that I put in the middle of the dog dish & that holds the rat mix food & I have a small hamster dish that is also in the large rat dish that holds the fresh veggies or damp treats/foods.

I have 2 water bottles. 1 rat sized & 1 rabbit sized (not that HUGE one, but the 1 a rat can use but the bottle can just hold more water) & the mini one that I hook up when they get a liquid treat.

I also clean the cage twice a week with bleach & hot water, & this weekend the rats get a suprize.. a BATH!!! hehe, I can't have dirty rats now can I? hehe

Before I look it up, is it safe to bathe a rat once a week? My rats don't look dirty (you know that nasty fur look, EWWW, I've seen it, but never had a rat look it), but the silly things still play & roll around on soiled bedding & pee on each other! so they smell like urine & I'm sure that its not healthy being on their fur, yuck!

As for shampoo, I didn't see one for rats, so will the one for hamsters or ferrats be safe to use?
or kitten?
or human baby? Don't wanna make them sick from a bath.
Also how deep should the water be?
& how warm or cool should the water be?
is getting water on their face/nose gonna drown them?
or getting some in their ears gonna cause an ear infection?
is the shampoo save to put on their private parts?
will it burn their eyes if it accidently gets in their eyes?
is it safe to use on a preg rat or a nursing rat?
how do you safely dry a rat?
will a blow drier on low heat & at a distance hurt the rat? - I would keep my hand holding the rat so I know it wasn't getting hot.

Just don't judge me because I breed rats for feeders. My turtle needs to eat & if I had enough room/money I'd breed cows for my own use, as I know its off spring would be eatting healthy food & not pumpped full of drugs or eatting other animals, ewwww!!

I hope I answered all questions.. there was just so many to go through

[finn's mom]

I don't have a problem with breeding for feeders. I didn't realize that's what you were doing to begin with.

[king2005]

I don't have a problem with breeding for feeders. I didn't realize that's what you were doing to begin with.

I don't breed for fun (that ain't right). But in the past I would "lend" out a preg female mouse to kids (that I knew!!) so they could watch the process. I always took the momma & the babies back, but they got to keep the mouse for a few weeks. If they wanted to see another one or get one as a pet, then I'd do that. Usually they refused to keep it as a pet, but they loved watching it have babies & how they cared for them. All the kids took good care of the momma mice :) The kids were young & the folks thought it was a good learning exp. & an easy way to see if their kids were ready to have a pet full time pet (I always agreed to take the pet back if little johnny really didn't like caring for it down the road)..

[molucass]

I have a problem with breeding for feeders, its cruel to the rats, and not safe for the snake (if thats what they are being fed to)..More times than not a snake can be attacked by the live rodent leaving it injured and in turn having to be put down.

I understand that your turtle has to eat, but why not get humanely killed frozen feeders, instead of breeding feeders of your own... I don't think its right.

I've never been for feeding live, and I never will be.

[*iluvskipper*]

50?!?! wowzers. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Jods]

well I personally couldn't feed baby rats to any animals, but then again I don't have any pets that need pinkines or live feed so I am not one to judge your position, but maybe you could give your pet ratties a break after their babies?

[lv4dogs]

Oh, you are breeding for feeders. In that I see no problem with it at all! Everyone needs to eat thats for sure. I used to breed feeder mice & rats for my ferrets, dogs & cats.
Well ok, you don't really want unhealthy rats as your pets are going to eat them but you don't have to be :as careful" about breeding them as you would if they were pet rats.


You should probably feed them a light dog food, puppy/kitten/reg. adult food has too much protein in it for rats.

I wouldn't bath them too often, maybe a few times a year only if needed. but for the most part, most rats are actually very clean. If yuo can bath them less than that thats even better. Most common is the dirty tail, a simpl tail bath is all that is needed. They can catch colds & other illnesses easily and like I said they are usually keep themselves pretty clean so the less baths the better. They do sell rodent shampoo, though it is kind of hard to find. Ferret, kitten & baby shampoo's are all fine to use too.
You don't want them to actually sit in the water, unless they like it. But if you do, just an inch or so is all you need. What I reccomend is to use the kitchen faicet sprayer or just hold them under running water. Luke warm is fine. Make sure to dry them off well.
I would not bath the face, just like most other animals I reccomend just wiping the face down with a baby wipe or moist wash cloth. Too much water on the face can cause some of it to be inhalled into the lungs, causing major respitory problems & other illnesses. And the shampoo would probably sting the eyes. Water in the ears can also cause an infection if not cleaned out properly.
Blow dryer, NO. Even low heat can burn such sensative skin. Just towel dry them well.

[king2005]

I have a problem with breeding for feeders, its cruel to the rats, and not safe for the snake (if thats what they are being fed to)..More times than not a snake can be attacked by the live rodent leaving it injured and in turn having to be put down.

I understand that your turtle has to eat, but why not get humanely killed frozen feeders, instead of breeding feeders of your own... I don't think its right.

I've never been for feeding live, and I never will be.
I don't own a snake...

So is nature cruel?
Hyena's eat their prey while its alive & crying, should we put up fences to prevent Hyena's from eatting Zebra's? Answer is no. Prey is prey, is it sad, yes, cruel no. Everything MUST eat & I'm not gonna starve my turtle just becuase its food item breaths air & has a heart beat.. remember plants feel pain too.. sure its different then an animal, but its still pain!

So its ok to buy a frozen rat from a store, but its cruel to feed my turtle one of my own frozen rats? No offence but that makes no sence at all...
I know what goes into my own feeders & I know they are healthy, I do not know what goes into the feeder rats at the pet store, but I'm sure its not nearly as good as what I'm feeding my rats. How am I to know that they don't feed their rats foods that have BHA & BHT in it? Those are toxic chemicals & will damage my turtle much faster then a cat or dog.

Also how am I suppose to know how the rats at the store were killed? I have gotten a few from stores in the past (when i lived in Ottawa) & there was blood on the noses of the mice & rats! Explain to me how that is more humaine? Not a hair is harmed on my feeder rats when I freeze them & I have strict RULES on how to freeze my feeders. I spent a long time finding the best way to do this & I have one. I will NOT go into detail, but I can assure you its a more natural way to die & this kind of death happeneds in the wild & its almost 100% painless & causes little fear.

My landlady has a wild mouse issue in her kitchen. She has to use the sticky paper to catch them as there are so many. She tried to peel 1 mouse off & couldn't (she didn't want to smash it to death, she just wanted to toss it into the forest alive & well), she ended up crying & her b/f took them & killed them. She asked me if there was a better way. I told her what to do & explained how the animal died. She felt good about it & thats how she gets rid of the mice. She said she checks on the mice & they are dead in 1 hr & are not mangled & gory. She is a god loving person & said she feels more at ease with my way & has shared it with her friends, who also agree.

Yes I do feed live aswell (its his treat) & when the rat is dead in less then 1 second (90% of the time, other wise is less then 5 seconds) I don't have an issue with it at all.

I don't mean to be rude to you or anything, but please ask questions before assuming I'm being cruel to my feeders.

& I do thank everyone for not going insane on this topic.. Feel free to ask more questions & I will answer them.


- I plan to do 2 back to back breedings(well the 2ed breeding will be whenever I get a new male) as that'll supply me with 6-12 months worth of food for Axle. I'll be keeping 1 male & 1 female from the 2ed breeding, so when I put my male in a different cage he wont be alone or I'll just borrow someones male rat, breed & return the male so I wont have to house him <-- I like that idea, I think I'll do that! I hate keeping rats in smaller cages. I like my rats in 4 foot long cages so they can run about & I cannot house a 2ed 4 foot long cage for just a male rat.

[luckies4me]

This whole entire thread is so very very sad. :( It DOES NOT matter if they are being bred as feeders or not. The point is this, basic humane care should be given to ANY animal we have in our position, whether or not that animal will be used as a food source or not. If you cannot provide the best possible living conditions for these rats DO NOT BREED, period. By the sound of it, you know nothing of breeding. Can you stand to watch a baby die of megacolon? Can you sit there and watch a mom die from birthing complications? Will you take her to the vet if she has trouble? Or will you simply set that aside because well...she's a "feeder" and therefor less important than the other animals out there?

I have never had an issue with feeder rodents, I have an issue with their caretakers. There are people out there who can breed responsibly, and the ones who cannot should not be doing it.

One thing I want to clear up, male rats and mom rats for that matter almost never cannabilize their young. It is VERY rare! Most often than not the dad will usually help care for the young. Though, having the male in with the female is not wise in the first place. Having mothers in with other mothers is pretty bad. All moms should be seperated when with a litter to avoid fighting, snatching babies (which more often than not results in damage to the infant, or death from being pulled on by the rats) and not knowing who came from who. What if a baby was born deformed? How would you know which mom it came from if they were all in together? You should know this in order to breed responsibly, as that mom would need not to be bred again.

Please everyone, I urge you. Don't breed unless you read up on it first. It's not fair to the animals. :(

[Jods]

Cass I was hoping you'd chime in with your opinion

[*LabLoverKEB*]

Please everyone, I urge you. Don't breed unless you read up on it first. It's not fair to the animals. :(
I agree 100%

[sandragonfly]

:( this upsets me and my tummy very much too.

aw jess. we used to bred our feeders (rats & hoppers) at the ZOO where I worked at. on their strict clean policy, we always, always seperate the mommy rats and clean out their (28 3x3feet) drawerhomes every other day as well as their disease is very contagious. and we chop out heart of fruits/veggies left out from larger animals' meals daily. we also had scheduled dates of freezing, to inject with caliums/vitmans, feeding which to who. the fresh they are for them. do you think you can do all of that, the proper prep too, especially things you've been going through lately?

I know I am not you but I just hate the idea myself or my friends breeding the feeders unless it's done by a professional. at no heart I have to do this, I'd rather buy frozen pinkies (and thaw them) than watching little helpless hearts growing out of hands and gasping out for their lives.. five or one second.

but, if, for your sake's you still want to do this, feed alive.. please, for my and rats' sake, gas it and crack its neck before you feed it.

best for the rats. :( I don't think you really want to do that.

[Chilli]

First off, I have nothing against breeding rats for feeders (eventhough 3 of my rats were being sold as feeders when I bought them) as long as they have proper care and I mean proper care, not just decent care.
I just wanted to ask, if you're saying you are breeding these rats responsibly, why didn't you find out about the past of the male rat before you bred? It just sounds a little ironic to me.

[molucass]

I don't own a snake...

& there was blood on the noses of the mice & rats! Explain to me how that is more humaine?

If you knew much about rats, you would know that is not blood, its porphyrin and they get it when they are stressed out. It is the red color and appears like blood, but it is not. There is other reasons they get it, but the most common is stress.




Rats produce a lubricating secretion called porphyrin that is manufactured by the harderian gland which lies behind the eyeball. It is stained red with a pigment called porphyrin. When a rat is stressed, this bloody looking mucus may be produced in an over abundance and stain their nose or eyes. Sometimes it looks like bloody tears coming from their eyes.

I took the above statement from a website.

[jackie]

I have nothing wrong with feeding live, but I am surprised you posted about this.

You know this topic would upset some people here.

[Miss Z]

This whole entire thread is so very very sad. :( It DOES NOT matter if they are being bred as feeders or not. The point is this, basic humane care should be given to ANY animal we have in our position, whether or not that animal will be used as a food source or not. If you cannot provide the best possible living conditions for these rats DO NOT BREED, period. By the sound of it, you know nothing of breeding. Can you stand to watch a baby die of megacolon? Can you sit there and watch a mom die from birthing complications? Will you take her to the vet if she has trouble? Or will you simply set that aside because well...she's a "feeder" and therefor less important than the other animals out there?

I have never had an issue with feeder rodents, I have an issue with their caretakers. There are people out there who can breed responsibly, and the ones who cannot should not be doing it.

One thing I want to clear up, male rats and mom rats for that matter almost never cannabilize their young. It is VERY rare! Most often than not the dad will usually help care for the young. Though, having the male in with the female is not wise in the first place. Having mothers in with other mothers is pretty bad. All moms should be seperated when with a litter to avoid fighting, snatching babies (which more often than not results in damage to the infant, or death from being pulled on by the rats) and not knowing who came from who. What if a baby was born deformed? How would you know which mom it came from if they were all in together? You should know this in order to breed responsibly, as that mom would need not to be bred again.

Please everyone, I urge you. Don't breed unless you read up on it first. It's not fair to the animals. :(

Perfect post. Although it says in my rat book about cannibalism, and I know the same is true of hamsters:confused: Ah well, I suppose you are far more experienced than any book. Never trust what you read!

And the last sentence, I reckon, should be the eleventh commandment.:(

[luckies4me]

And the last sentence, I reckon, should be the eleventh commandment.
Amen! :D


Rats can eat their young. I have seen it. I was just saying it is very very rare. ;)

[My Peanuts]

I don't own a snake...

So is nature cruel?
Hyena's eat their prey while its alive & crying, should we put up fences to prevent Hyena's from eatting Zebra's? Answer is no. Prey is prey, is it sad, yes, cruel no. Everything MUST eat & I'm not gonna starve my turtle just becuase its food item breaths air & has a heart beat.. remember plants feel pain too.. sure its different then an animal, but its still pain!
.

It's not natural for the pray to be in an enclosed area with no way to get out. You ask if we should put up fences to prevent hyenas from eating zebra. No, but we also shouldn't trap the zebras in either.

I'm not sure where I stand on feeding live pray. I know it should be avoided if possible. It could be dangerous for both parties.

[king2005]

molucass,
My rats & mice never had any red (whatever you want to call it, or whatever its caused by is irelavent(sp) as its not good regarless) liquid on their noses. So when I bought mice at the store & saw them all with red liquid, to me that wasn't a good sign at all. I have frozen hundreds or mice & many rats & they never had red liquid on them.

==

I change the nests everyday, as the babies do make a mess & its not healthy for them to be in it.

==

No need to pump the rats full of drugs, as my turtle is already on vitamins for his health issue (he was born that way & I found him 1/2 dead).

==

As for money, I do have a supplies fund for the pets.. No I wasn't prepared to replace the 55g tank that broke, but I was prepared as in I always have extra tanks (yes they are smaller but they are only temps)I also have extra filters (sure they aren't nearly as good, but they will work just fine). I also always buy food in bulk, as its cheaper in the long run. Its only the rats that require regular feedings, so its not hard to buy them food/treats/meds (for the lice) & bedding on a regular bases.. My fish food costs me about 50.00/year & about another 50.00 for chemicals. Turtle food is pretty much zip, as he eats once every 2 weeks & I give him people food often, so that doesn't hurt me (I don't count the cost of my own rats).

==

Why did I mention I had rats & the babies.. well I think people will notice that I have rats in my house, when i start posting photos on my website & when people come to visit (I can't just hide them lol).. also I'm honest, I can't just pretend I don't have them. What if I need info (like when I had the lice issue), then people are gonna ask, when did you get rats? & then get upset for hiding (thinking I don't care for them cause I didn't tell anyone).. Sorry I don't hide things. I love my rats & want to make sure all is well.

Have I change how I deal with Rats, sure have, is it for the better, yep... So don't think I'm ignoring advice, its RUDE advice I don't like (don't think anyone likes that kind of advice) & I tend to get upset over it (like anyone would) & don't see the advice.

==

I admit I made a bad choice when it came to the male (reason hes not being breed again & hes being PTS.. I know I already said that somewhere in this thread), I looked into him, but NOT deep enough. It was only after I breed him that I was told "more" info on him.

[My Peanuts]

I hate to ask, but how and why are you putting him to sleep?

[king2005]

I hate to ask, but how and why are you putting him to sleep?

Because I keep finding more problems with him & they are getting worse (hes in his own cage now). He was malnurished when I got him & infested with lice. His fur is still thinning & now he has white crusty stuff on his fur. His skin is all wrong (rough kinda like his tail) & its turning an odd colour (yellowish brown)).

His breathing is horrible, I thought he was sneezing casue I had the wrong shavings. But now he's still sneezing, but I can hear his breathing (raspy & hard to explain, I'm positive he has that UR issue, as my first Rat had it when i got him, except Grissim is getting worse really fast). But when he does sneeze now stuff comes out! I was told thats really bad & that his lungs are infected/damaged :(

Hes also gotten REALLY agressive (towards me & the other rats) the past week & seems to be a little off (confused I think). I don't believe in prolonging an animals suffering when they are highly imbreed, as more & more problems will keep popping up (I'm not putting a critter through that again). Its in the rats best intrest to be PTS

[My Peanuts]

Why not take him to a vet and see what they say first? Are you taking him to the vet to be PTS?

[king2005]

Why not take him to a vet and see what they say first? Are you taking him to the vet to be PTS?

As I said, I DO NOT aprove of imbreed animals like this. Its wrong & sick!

[k9krazee]

As I said, I DO NOT aprove of imbreed animals like this. Its wrong & sick!

So you won't be taking him to the vet? How will he be PTS? :(

[king2005]

So you won't be taking him to the vet? How will he be PTS? :(

Where did I say I wasn't taking him to the vets to be PTS?
Isn't there only 1 way to put an animal to sleep? reason its called PTS

I don't put feeders to sleep, I kill feeders.

[k9krazee]

Oh, well you never answered the original question...just said that you don't approve of inbred animals, so I was under the impression he was not going to see a vet. Sorry.

[My Peanuts]

This is so sad. Inbred or not it's still an animal with feelings. He deserves vet care. If the vet said he was in pain and there is no hope then fine, put him to sleep, but it seems no action has been taken. If I found out one of my animals was inbred the wrong way (there are good ways to inbreed rats I've been told) the only thing I would do is keep him/her from mating. I treat my animals like family and it sounds like this rat is getting treated as an object. It's sad. :(

[My Peanuts]

I don't put feeders to sleep, I kill feeders.

Can you clarify this a bit? Does this mean if one of the babies was sick you'd treat it different than if it was a pet? Pets get put to sleep and feeders just get killed? If so that is one of the worst things I have heard in a while. They are animals regardless if they are food or not. They deserve respect.

[luckies4me]

Why have you NOT taken him to the vet? :( :mad: I'm sorry but this has me steamed! How sad for this poor rat. You are just letting him suffer! He's probably sneezing stuff out because you have avoided getting him the proper vet care. Just because he is inbred (it's not that bad with rats if you would listen and do research. Ask many of the top breeders. A lot of the traits we have are set through inbreeding/linebreeding) does not mean this poor guy has to have his tombstone chizzled already. You are very irresponsible. Just so you know it's very common for male rats to have an orangish color to their skin. It's caused by the protein the skin creates, and males just happen to have more than females. If they have too much protein in their diet it gets worse. It can also be caused from having a dirty cage. Also, if I was that rat and had such a horrible life living in that house I'd probably be a bit aggressive too. Just a thought. Maybe you should take care of your animals.

[king2005]

Can you clarify this a bit? Does this mean if one of the babies was sick you'd treat it different than if it was a pet? Pets get put to sleep and feeders just get killed? If so that is one of the worst things I have heard in a while. They are animals regardless if they are food or not. They deserve respect.

PTS is death by a vet, as in the animal is given a shot to put it to sleep & then a shot to kill it in its sleep.

You cannot PTS a feeder as the toxins in its body will go into the animal feeding on it (very bad!), there for it is killed. Cows, chicken, pigs, deer are all killed.. pets are PTS...

[My Peanuts]

PTS is death by a vet, as in the animal is given a shot to put it to sleep & then a shot to kill it in its sleep.

You cannot PTS a feeder as the toxins in its body will go into the animal feeding on it (very bad!), there for it is killed. Cows, chicken, pigs, deer are all killed.. pets are PTS...


I understand now. I thought you meant feeders that were sick and weren't going to be used as food would just be killed.

I'm sorry, but I still feel that these feeders could be cared for better.

[king2005]

I understand now. I thought you meant feeders that were sick and weren't going to be used as food would just be killed.

I'm sorry, but I still feel that these feeders could be cared for better.

Grissim isn't a feeder (you don't name feeders, that would be mentaly cruel). Hes a pet (I play with them, hold them, let them run about outside the cage, name them) that I use in breeding.. well not anymore (breeding wise).

Depending on how ill the rat is, depends on if it needs to be PTS or not. I will not give my rats drugs to cure an illness. I will remove the rat, make it comfy, I'll give it herbals, but not drugs. I'm 100% against pumping feeder animals (including farm animals) full of drugs, as it goes into the being eatting it & then causes issues (cancers, etc) in the being. Biggest reason I wont eat beef from the usa anymore.. Canada's beef (& milk products) isn't much better, but the usa's meet still has more meds & crap pumped into the cows!

I support natural farms 100% & do the same with my feeder animals (the parents of the feeders). I will use polysporn & herbals, but if the animal isn't able to recover, then its PTS.

I myself do everything I can NOT to take drugs. I will put up with a cold & they usually last about a month for me & then thats it, no more colds for that year. Now that I've been fighting all my illnesses on my own, its rare that I get really sick like I use to when I would take meds.

So no I'm not being irresponsible with these rats, you just have a different opinion on this whole drug issue (Organic).

[Vela]

I understand you are saying you don't beleive in pumping feeders full of drugs, that could make the other animals they are fed to ill, but at the same time you say Grissim is a pet, not a feeder, and won't be used for breeding, so why woudl it be bad to try to get him help rather than suffer?? If he's that sick why not either put him to sleep NOW, or get him vet care so he doesn't linger in that state and just slowly get worse until he dies. That seems cruel to just let him waste away rather than putting him down now, or getting him vet care. Just wondering why not, since he's not a feeder.

[My Peanuts]

Depending on how ill the rat is, depends on if it needs to be PTS or not. I will not give my rats drugs to cure an illness. I will remove the rat, make it comfy, I'll give it herbals, but not drugs. I'm 100% against pumping feeder animals (including farm animals) full of drugs, as it goes into the being eatting it & then causes issues (cancers, etc) in the being. Biggest reason I wont eat beef from the usa anymore.. Canada's beef (& milk products) isn't much better, but the usa's meet still has more meds & crap pumped into the cows!

).

But you said Grissim isn't a feeder. Also you said he's inbred so you won't be breeding him anymore. What's the harm of treating him with meds if it will save his life? He isn't going to be eaten and he isn't going to father anymore babies. It sounds to me like you are making up excuses not to take him to the vet.

Also, how do you make a rat "comfy" without meds?

[Miss Z]

I'm still very concerned...


You cannot PTS a feeder as the toxins in its body will go into the animal feeding on it (very bad!), there for it is killed. Cows, chicken, pigs, deer are all killed.. pets are PTS...



I'm still miffed on this one. Killed how, exactly? Feeder or not, an animal deserves a humane death. Surely putting one feeder to sleep would not cause the animal who would have eaten it to starve, seeing as you have bred feeder rats already. Personally, I do not squash spiders, flies or wasps, and definitely could not 'kill' a rat.

I just have to ask, what size cage are all these animals in? How often do you clean it? I really do not want these creatures to be stored up like sausages. I am glad that you disagree with some of the drugs used in the meat trade, but please, I think everyone here wants better care for your feeders. Your turtle eats them, so you owe them. Everything has a right to live, so perhaps if we begin to hear more positive things about your rats rather than you telling us that your putting one down simply because its inbred, you can expect more helpful and kinder comments.

Please, if I could show you that I'm on my knees I would. PLEASE please please take a little more responsibility for these animals. They've been on my mind for the past few days.

I'm going to hug Tia and remind her what a beautiful girl she is.

[king2005]

I understand you are saying you don't beleive in pumping feeders full of drugs, that could make the other animals they are fed to ill, but at the same time you say Grissim is a pet, not a feeder, and won't be used for breeding, so why woudl it be bad to try to get him help rather than suffer?? If he's that sick why not either put him to sleep NOW, or get him vet care so he doesn't linger in that state and just slowly get worse until he dies. That seems cruel to just let him waste away rather than putting him down now, or getting him vet care. Just wondering why not, since he's not a feeder.

It was complicated (not getting into that), but Grissim will be PTS this afternoon. Hes already gone from my care.

[king2005]

I'm still very concerned...

I'm still miffed on this one. Killed how, exactly? Feeder or not, an animal deserves a humane death. Surely putting one feeder to sleep would not cause the animal who would have eaten it to starve, seeing as you have bred feeder rats already. Personally, I do not squash spiders, flies or wasps, and definitely could not 'kill' a rat.

I just have to ask, what size cage are all these animals in? How often do you clean it? I really do not want these creatures to be stored up like sausages. I am glad that you disagree with some of the drugs used in the meat trade, but please, I think everyone here wants better care for your feeders. Your turtle eats them, so you owe them. Everything has a right to live, so perhaps if we begin to hear more positive things about your rats rather than you telling us that your putting one down simply because its inbred, you can expect more helpful and kinder comments.

Please, if I could show you that I'm on my knees I would. PLEASE please please take a little more responsibility for these animals. They've been on my mind for the past few days.

I'm going to hug Tia and remind her what a beautiful girl she is.

(I swear I said this already) I do kill the feeders as humanily as possible. I spent 6 months working, planing & researching the best way for an animal to be killed. My method causes very little to no stress & almost no fear. No pain is involved either & its a more natural way to die. I cannot & will not explain how I do it in a post.

Do I really have to repeat that Grissim is being PTS again? PLEASE read all the posts (everyones posts too, so mine make some sence.. or so I hope).

The rats are in a 4foot by 2 foot by 2 foot cage. Its a rabbit cage, so there are bars on the sides & top & its a plastic bottom, so there is no worry about bubble foot.

I clean the cage between 2-3 times a week. When the babies are born the nests will be cleaned daily. I clean the cage in my Shower stall with bleach & hot water (bleach works best in hot water). Then I spray the bottom of the cage with the lice spray. Add lots of Aspen bedding, Dump the food in the large dog bowl, scrub it with bleach & hot water in my bathroom sink, & add fresh food when its dry(if the dish is clean & they didn't fill it with shavings, then I wait till the next cleaning). I change their 3 water bottles everyday & wash them with hot water only, but use bleach & hot water on the metal spout thingy.

the 2ed cage is a Hamster cage. its strictly a temp cage. I put all the rats in it to clean out the big cage. They are in it for about 30-60 mins. Thats when I usually spoil them with a fancy drink from the mini hamster water bottle (the bottle is useless other wise) & give them a slice of bread (the heal, I hate the heal).

I play with them every night before I go to bed (thats also when i do the water changes). Shawn is still scared of them so he will only pet Vodka on the head with his bare finger, but he will make baby sounds to her & always wants to spoil her with a carrot.

Once a rat is called a pet/breeder, they will never become food for another pet, thats why I name them & play with them.
Vodka
Vixy
Squeeks (thinking of changing her name as shes quiet now)
Takelia (sp I have no idea)
Baileys

[My Peanuts]

This is terrible. You are putting down your pet rat and show no sadness in ANY of your posts! It's mentioned only as a matter of fact and that's it. This is so ridiculous. You have no right to be a pet owner or to consider yourself a pet lover. :mad: You are not handling this right. I'm done posting and reading. I feel bad for the rats that are in your so called care.

And that cage is not adequate for 50+ rats. Not even close.

[My Peanuts]

According to the rat cage calculator that cage should comfortably house 8 rats! EIGHT! Not 50+

Here's the link. Rat Cage Calculator (http://www.kristinewickstrom.homestead.com/files/PanelApplet.html)

[Miss Z]

This is terrible. You are putting down your pet rat and show no sadness in ANY of your posts! It's mentioned only as a matter of fact and that's it. This is so ridiculous. You have no right to be a pet owner or to consider yourself a pet lover. :mad: You are not handling this right. I'm done posting and reading. I feel bad for the rats that are in your so called care.

And that cage is not adequate for 50+ rats. Not even close.

I am in complete agreement. Tia, on her own, is in a bigger cage than that!

And actually, I have read all the posts, I've just not found an adequate answer. To say that you won't explain how you plan to deal with the rats which don't quite reach standard leaves me very suspicious indeed.

BTW, it's bumble foot.

[king2005]

This is terrible. You are putting down your pet rat and show no sadness in ANY of your posts! It's mentioned only as a matter of fact and that's it. This is so ridiculous. You have no right to be a pet owner or to consider yourself a pet lover. :mad: You are not handling this right. I'm done posting and reading. I feel bad for the rats that are in your so called care.

And that cage is not adequate for 50+ rats. Not even close.

The cage is for 5 females! The babies will only be there a short time, until they are removed. The rats sleep in their boxes, so having the babies staying in there is not making any difference in the size of the cage.. its not like they'll be running around or anything.

As I SAID before (again with me repeating things!!). I already delt with Rats in the SAME state as Grissim & with all the meds & VET Bills, the rat still suffered in the end! I AM NOT PUTTING ANOTHER PET THROUGH THAT!! ITS WRONG TO MAKE IT SUFFER JUST BECAUSE I WANT IT AS A PET & WANT IT ON THIS EARTH LONGER, ITS NOT MY RIGHT (yes I'm yelling now, because people aren't reading everything!)!!!


Ummmm I'm typing on the internet..soo.. How on earth do you know how I feel?? I don't cry for all the deaths of my pets. Do I feel sad YES, do I feel like crying NO, did I take my time & decide what was best & what needed to be done YES.

[king2005]

I am in complete agreement. Tia, on her own, is in a bigger cage than that!

And actually, I have read all the posts, I've just not found an adequate answer. To say that you won't explain how you plan to deal with the rats which don't quite reach standard leaves me very suspicious indeed.

Guess I have to type this in more detail for you, I thought you understood how an animal was PTS (as I already said its done by the vet in an earlier post).

Grissim will be handed over to a vet. The vet will bring Grissim into the back. The vet will stick a needle in Grissim's belly & inject him with a drug that'll put him to sleep. Then they'll stick him with a 2ed needle in the belly that'll stop his heat & kill him while he's sleeping so he wont feel any pain when his heart stops beating.

I so didn't want to type that kind of detail!

[My Peanuts]

Just as your anger gets through on the Internet so does your lack of remorse.

Yes I am reading ALL the posts and your answers are simply not good enough and some of the questions are conveniently not answered. It’s obvious this is all just to save money. Money on buying feeders and money saved by not taking sick pets for vet care. If you can't afford the proper care for ALL of your animals then you have no right to have them.

[My Peanuts]

Guess I have to type this in more detail for you, I thought you understood how an animal was PTS (as I already said its done by the vet in an earlier post).

Grissim will be handed over to a vet. The vet will bring Grissim into the back. The vet will stick a needle in Grissim's belly & inject him with a drug that'll put him to sleep. Then they'll stick him with a 2ed needle in the belly that'll stop his heat & kill him while he's sleeping so he wont feel any pain when his heart stops beating.

I so didn't want to type that kind of detail!

I think Miss Z's concern is for the feeders as well as Grissim. I'm pretty sure she knows how a vet puts an animal to sleep.

[Miss Z]

Guess I have to type this in more detail for you, I thought you understood how an animal was PTS (as I already said its done by the vet in an earlier post).

Grissim will be handed over to a vet. The vet will bring Grissim into the back. The vet will stick a needle in Grissim's belly & inject him with a drug that'll put him to sleep. Then they'll stick him with a 2ed needle in the belly that'll stop his heat & kill him while he's sleeping so he wont feel any pain when his heart stops beating.

I so didn't want to type that kind of detail!

Wait, your posts do not make sense. In a previous post, you differenciated between putting an animal down and how you plan to 'kill' Grissim. Yes, I do understand how an animal is PTS, thank-you-very-much, and from the sounds of it, I know a heck of a lot more about rats than you do evidently. I hate to be so accusing but this whole thread has hit a raw nerve for me.

And if you don't cry at the death of your pets, I pity you. Really, I do.

[king2005]

Just as your anger gets through on the Internet so does your lack of remorse.

Yes I am reading ALL the posts and your answers are simply not good enough and some of the questions are conveniently not answered. It’s obvious this is all just to save money. Money on buying feeders and money saved by not taking sick pets for vet care. If you can't afford the proper care for ALL of your animals then you have no right to have them.

What questions did I miss?? I know I ignored some as I had already answered them & felt no need to retype the answer, unless asked again. I'm doin gmy best to answer, if I missed a few, I'm sorry, I'm trying to type, chat & work all at the sametime & work & shat comes first before making sure I answered every single question, esp when I though I did.

ummm.. There is NO way you read & understood everything, cause you would not have said I'm out to save money on feeders. I spend WAY more money on careing for the rats then buying them at the store! 1 feeder is about a 1.00, so thats gonna cost me about 4.00/month to buy feeders in a store. I'm sorry but i spend WAY more then 4.00 on my rats/month! I breed so I know whats going into my Turtle. I don't want crap going into him that'll kill him!

I'm spending 60.00 to have Grissim PTS & I'll pay that 100 times if I have to!!

I do NOT want to watch another rat pissing & craping all over the place while having seazures because of the meds they have to take, How the hell is that treatment!!! I went through 2 rats that acted like that. I WILL NOT do it again.. I cannot put a pet through that kind of hell just to keep it longer & to please people like you. How much more details do you want?? Do you need to know the colour of the urin, how much crap come out while the rat is shaking all over the place or what colour the skin turns when they stop breathing ?! For gods sake I said I have seen them go through hell through the treatments!! I was trying to spare you the horrible details!! I also don't want to see that ever again!! If you can handle your pet suffering through a treatment like that, then fine thats your choice to watch your pet look like that.. for me, NO WAY IN HELL. I'd rather bring it to the vet & have it PTS so it doesn't have to suffer!

[Miss Z]

Perhaps if your first lot of rats was so stressful why on earth did you decide to risk that happening again?

[king2005]

Wait, your posts do not make sense. In a previous post, you differenciated between putting an animal down and how you plan to 'kill' Grissim. Yes, I do understand how an animal is PTS, thank-you-very-much, and from the sounds of it, I know a heck of a lot more about rats than you do evidently. I hate to be so accusing but this whole thread has hit a raw nerve for me.

And if you don't cry at the death of your pets, I pity you. Really, I do.

I didn't say I was killing Grissim, I said I was going to get him PTS. I said Grissim isn't a feeder, hes a pet/breeder.

Feeders are killed & pets are PTS. I also said I'm NOT going into details on how to kill a feeder & that I will not post regardless.

Why do I have to cry? Why can't I just feel sad & feel like crap?

[king2005]

Perhaps if your first lot of rats was so stressful why on earth did you decide to risk that happening again?

What risk? I'm having Grissim PTS. I'm not risking anything, I'm avoiding that horrible risk, as its not worth the suffering to the pet.


I need to cool down as I'm getting a little mouthy on here.. I will say I'm sorry for getting a little to mouthy/snappy & well.. rude! I'm sorry for that.

[Miss Z]

I meant the risk of bringing many new rats into the world, breeding is a stressful business for animals and unfortunately some breeding animals suffer terrible diseases. If it was so upsetting for you first time around then deciding to leap straight back into getting 5 or so rats and breeding them is pretty risky for them and you IMO.

[My Peanuts]

I hope you understand that our concerns are about the animals. I don't dislike you. I just want every single animal to be treated with the most respect that they can.

[My Peanuts]

Also, Grissim aside, I'm finding it troubling that you can't tell us how the others are "killed." You described it as the most humane way possible. If that's the fact then it shouldn't me an issue how they are "killed."

[king2005]

I meant the risk of bringing many new rats into the world, breeding is a stressful business for animals and unfortunately some breeding animals suffer terrible diseases. If it was so upsetting for you first time around then deciding to leap straight back into getting 5 or so rats and breeding them is pretty risky for them and you IMO.

My first rats didn't get sick from breeding. They were already sick when i got them & then I treated them when I learned of them being sick. I thought the first rats reaction was a shit happends, but when the 2ed rat I had treated did the same thing, I swore I'll never do that treatment again & I plan to keep it that way. I have NEVER made an animal sick, I have gotten them sick. When I got the 2ed rat that was sick, I knew she was sick, thats why i took her in. After her reaction to the treatment, I knew it wasn't worth the suffering, as both rats died anyways (I'd rather them die sick, then suffering in hell.)

[Vela]

Well I am glad to hear that Grissim is being PTS today, just so he is no longer suffering. I don't know much about rats and medications but if it's that bad off then it's best he is is PTS so he doesn't have to feel that kind of pain. Just glad you are doing it now and not letting him go on so sickly.

[Miss Z]

Also, Grissim aside, I'm finding it troubling that you can't tell us how the others are "killed." You described it as the most humane way possible. If that's the fact then it shouldn't me an issue how they are "killed."

That's still troubling me too.

I've really got to try to stay off of this thread now. I don't want to say things I may regret, and I'm so sick of argueing, I really don't want to and I've tried to understand what everyone is saying, but on this one I'm so worried. I can't lose any more sleep over the welfare of these animals.

[king2005]

That's still troubling me too.

I've really got to try to stay off of this thread now. I don't want to say things I may regret, and I'm so sick of argueing, I really don't want to and I've tried to understand what everyone is saying, but on this one I'm so worried. I can't lose any more sleep over the welfare of these animals.

loosing sleep over what? that I'd rather save my pet rat from horrible suffering? or that I have a big ugly pet thats gonna eat something cute & fuzzy?

What have I not answered thats making you loose sleep over?

[molucass]

They have already explained to you what you have not answered.

If the way you "KILL" your feeders is SO humane, then why can't you explain how you "KILL" them? If it was indeed humane, you wouldn't have a problem posting the explanation.

[Jods]

MyPeanuts and Miss Z you guys are asking how is she killing the feeders, do you really want to know? No matter what you say shes not gonna change her mind its useless! so do you still really wanna know how they are killed? it will break your hearts no I don't know either and I don't want to know. Please just let it be. :(

[Miss Z]

loosing sleep over what? that I'd rather save my pet rat from horrible suffering? or that I have a big ugly pet thats gonna eat something cute & fuzzy?

What have I not answered thats making you loose sleep over?

OK, at which point did I condemn your turtle for sparking this controversy? I understand the law of nature quite well. I would have far less of a problem if I thought you were breeding responsibly, but unfortunately I don't. This whole thread was started in a very light-hearted manner, it's only turned serious when people such as myself began to raise questions. How can I not feel guilty when my own rat lives such a good life, and I feel that far away there are others like her who are cramped up and will be disposed of in a way you consider humane but will not tell us about?

[midget gem]

I agree with Miss Z completely, you have no right to treat animals in this way:mad:

[king2005]

Miss Z & molucass, your really starting to creep me out! in a sick & twisted way too!

Why do you want such details?

I don't know about you, but I'm 99.99% sure others do not want to know that. Just like they don't want to know all the details on how their juicy burger became a juicy burger. I know how my burger became a burger & honestly I could have lived happly without that tidbit of info. I'm more interested in the care of the animal then its death. Death is death(yes there is a right & wrong way, but in the end its still death). its sad but needed & the end result is the same, it ends up on my plate & then I eat it.

If you think I enjoy killing critters then you don't know me at all. I hate that part. Thats why I spent 6 months researching the best & most humaine way to do it. I even had help from my biology & chemistry teachers (I did this 7yrs ago, its not recent as I haven't been in high school for about 6yrs). I didn't just wake up one day & say HEY I wanna kill a mouse/rat & feed it to my pet! Sorry but thats NOT me.

I will admit that when I first started I did a lot of the wrong care. I didn't know there were bad & good shavings, or bad & good cages (tanks vs wire walls vs wire bottoms). I assumed the pet stores knew what they were doing. I learned all the proper care here on PT. I've always wanted the best care for my rats & thats WHY I made this thread & tried to answer all questions, as I knew people would want precise details on their care. I have & DO spend a lot of money on the rats. & yes I do get excited when my rats have babies, its excited (woman thing), I try to enjoy the moment & not think of what I have to do later. As i do not enjoy it - I think I would have to be one sick *&@$%# to enjoy that!

When I had Oscar (a fish) I spent OVER 1000.00 on her in 1 year! & several hundered dollars everyother year for 4years (just on meds, not regular fish care). Oscar was imbred (just my luck, grrr.. another example of an imbred pet suffering.. see why I'm SOOO against it!) & she started have problems from day 1. I did everything I could to save her. She would have good & bad months, or good & BAD years. When Oscar got sick for the last time, I looked at her & decided that the non-stop treatments wern't worth her suffering & I was beeing greedy for keeping her alive. She suffered for 5yrs (not all the time, only when she fell ill & then the meds made her depressed.. yes Oscars get depressed!!). Right after my 23rd birthday I ended her suffering. If I ever get another Oscar & they show the same symptoms/illness, I'll treat them once & if they get it again, then I'll end the suffering. I don't want to be greedy when it comes to an animals suffering. they have to come first. I can always afford the vet bill (I don't do over time for fun you know), but many times its not worth the prolonged suffering. I am all for human's deciding when enough is enough(as in humans killing themselves or being PTS due to suffering). My friend ended his horrible suffering (there was NO hope for him) & I do not hate him for it. I feel good that his suffering is over & his family no longer has to watch him suffering.

I really do hate it when people assume I'm a monster for killing feeders or ending a pets suffering by it being PTS. Its really not fair to assume & its not safe/right to assume either, as I have learned.

Please stop asking how the feeders are killed, I cannot & will not post it. If you have other questions on the care I will answer those (you ask rudely(or in an attacking mannor) I'll answer rudely.. I'm only human I can only be polite for so long).

[king2005]

I agree with Miss Z completely, you have no right to treat animals in this way:mad:

in what way may I ask?
so I know where your coming from, so I can acutally reply to your post.

[king2005]

How can I not feel guilty when my own rat lives such a good life, and I feel that far away there are others like her who are cramped up and will be disposed of in a way you consider humane but will not tell us about?

What cramped conditions are you talking about?

I forget who posted it, but the cage will nicely house 8 rats (Adult rats). I only have 5 rats in that cage & the most 6 rats. Each rat has her own nest box. When the babies are born they cannot move (as in running around the cage) & do not require anymore space then their nest. The babies will not be old enough to leave the nest by the time they are removed, therefore the cage is not too small...biggest reason why I only deal with feeder babies(as I have said before) & not adults, I cannot house that many adults & never want to either, as messing up the sex could happen & all hell could break loose & I'm not risking that!

[Miss Z]

Miss Z & molucass, your really starting to creep me out! in a sick & twisted way too!



Ah well, guess I'm sick and twisted then. For trying to get to the bottom of a situation. Believe you me, I DO NOT want to know how you kill them, as I feel you've something to hide. The fact scares me that you are bottling up how you do it.

And I do not have a problem with your turtle eating.


I'm only human I can only be polite for so long).
I'm a human too.

[king2005]

Ah well, guess I'm sick and twisted then. For trying to get to the bottom of a situation. Believe you me, I DO NOT want to know how you kill them, as I feel you've something to hide. The fact scares me that you are bottling up how you do it.


I've been here for 7+yrs(I'm positive its that, as I think I was here before I met my ex), I have nothing to hide & as many know, I don't hide anything, I'm very open in nature.

I'm not bottling anything up, several people(not sure if everyone is still here or not, too many years have pased by) on this site know how I do it. They wanted a more humaine way to kill a feeder & with their permission I PMed them the info, or they just asked me how through a PM instead of assuming the worst!

[Miss Z]

This isn't going anywhere...

Obviously neither of us are going to agree. I'm outta here.

[jackie]

Like I said before, you should have known there would be a lot of controversy in this thread.

I hope all goes well with Grissim.

P.S. It INBRED, not imbred.