I Hope This Is Not True

[lizbud]

I have no idea if I could stand it if this were one of my children. :(
I hope to God this is not true. I would surely lose my mind with worry
an grief. :(


Masked Men Seized Soldiers, Newspaper Reports

POSTED: 8:13 am EDT June 17, 2006
UPDATED: 11:01 am EDT June 18, 2006


BAGHDAD, Iraq -- A farmer who witnessed an attack on a U.S. patrol south of Baghdad on Friday said he saw gunmen kill one soldier and take two others prisoner.

His report hasn't been verified, but The New York Times is quoting other witnesses who saw masked guerrillas jump into two cars and whisk the soldiers away.

The military has no new information on the search. A statement said search crews were "uncovering every stone" until the troops are found.

Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said U.S. forces have mounted four raids since the attack and added that ground forces, helicopters and airplanes are out hunting for the men. He also said a dive team is going to search for the men, who were at a checkpoint by a canal.


Caldwell said U.S. forces are "using every means" available on the ground, in the air and in the water to find the soldiers.

Friday's ambush took place in the volatile Sunni triangle.

Scattered Violence Reported As Troops Conduct Ramadi Operation

Iraq saw scattered violence Sunday as U.S. and Iraqi troops launched an operation in Ramadi to isolate insurgents there by cutting off their supply lines.

A car bomb exploded near a university in Mosul, killing a woman and wounding 19 other people. A mortar shell hit the al-Sadiq University for Islamic Studies in Baghdad, wounding five students and a teacher.

Gunmen seized 10 workers from a bakery in a mostly Shiite neighborhood in Baghdad, and at least 11 bullet-riddled bodies turned up, most of them in Baghdad.

U.S. commanders said the Ramadi operation is not a large-scale assault of the volatile Sunni Arab city.

[Dorothy39]

Lizbud!!!

This post is extraordinary!!! I have briefly visited "The Dog House" , so, I can't remember the other topics right this minute.

I don't want to alarm you, okay? But, given the information that you could type, a portion of it has to be true.

There are two sides to this War. One being, it is a WAR, the other being, It is just Democracy in Action. Oh well, I tend to view this as an all out WAR!!!

And, WAR is HELL!!! This article brings the conflict within the Sunni Triangle up close and highly decriptive. (I hope it is not true). But, Who knows what our government will allow the press to print? Likewise, allow us to even know of.

I was a teenager during the Vietnam Conflict. Since then, I have talked to several Vietnam Vets, and trust me, some of their stories made me absolutely sick to my stomach. (As in, sorry I even asked)

The internet is here now. The media has expanded their journalism to the point where we as a nation question their scruples. It seems, the more gory the detail, the faster it is posted, printed,or broadcast!!!! We tend to find out more than we are willing to digest. Even journalists from War War 2 have said that this is far worse than any conflict reported on foreign soil.

You posted a great thread for all of us at Pet Talk to Ponder .

[lizbud]

The two American soldiers were killed.Their bodies have been recovered.
I will not print the gruesome details. May they rest now, in peace. :(

[Miss Z]

This war never seems to progress. Where is the major breakthrough? There's as much violence and disorder there as there was before, and yet still innocent men are sent to their deaths.

To quote Wilfred Owen:
My friend, you would not tell of such high zest
To children ardent for some deperate glory
The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

:( :( :(

[Dorothy39]

I read about the Humvees being ambushed on MSNBC soon after reading your post.

This article reminds me so much of "The Vietnam Conflict"--

This War in Iraq scares the day lights out of me, now I am middle aged, and the men and women serving in our military are the little boys and girls I knew in the 70's and 80's. Incidently, a few of my close friends served in Iraq as well, training and overseeing procedures.

Do you feel that the people in the United States realize that there is a War going on in the Middle East? This is not a dress rehearsal folks, our men and women in uniform are in harms way.

I was raised by the World War 2 generation. They taught me all about the Wonderful Country that I was privledged to be born in. This generation was and still is --- awesome, !!!!!! We could not be typing on a computer if not for their courage , stamina, unity and maturity beyond their tender years .


I hope that our country can one day Unite again for such a cause !!!! But, I don't want to ration either. I would give up buying gasoline on a certain day if it were applied to everyone in this country. Get where I am coming from.? This War in Iraq is costing so much money, and so much PAIN!!!!!! I value our Freedom , yet, many other Americans take our Freedom for granted. We need to pitch in and do something for our Country.

Your Post really was so necessary. We are at War, yet, many of us don't even think about it at all.

[Dorothy39]

This war never seems to progress. Where is the major breakthrough? There's as much violence and disorder there as there was before, and yet still innocent men are sent to their deaths.

To quote Wilfred Owen:
My friend, you would not tell of such high zest
To children ardent for some deperate glory
The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

:( :( :(
Amen!!! You have hit it right on the mark my friend. You are younger than I am, this conflict will influence you life in ways you cannot comprehend right now. Where is the major breakthrough in deed. Why aren't the American people , those of us who are not in the military at all, involved as a Nation???

Oh yes, we can send our letters, our little care packages, our phone cards, but, we are not" United States" at all . Come on folks, young men and women who cannot afford an Education rely on their GI Bill Benefits. I personally know men and women in their mid twenties and early thirties who have lost their jobs while serving this country!!!!! Struggling while working odd jobs and taking classes in Community Colleges.

Young men and women, in the Military, who are trying to make ends meet!!!!

They deserve more RESPECT!!! and ---So much more than they are offered!!!!!

Many of them are now so depressed. so affected by what they experienced while serving. I feel this is "Vietnam 2 " yet, our country waves the flag more now than they did then. Hey, wave your flag folks, but remember , there is a price for our Freedom.

[Edwina's Secretary]

My views on this war are well-known and often repeated. I must tell you though....


I personally know men and women in their mid twenties and early thirties who have lost their jobs while serving this country!!!!!

There is a law against anyone losing their job because of military service. Regardless of the size of the company....the job must be held for them until they return. USERRA.

[popcornbird]

What about the innocent Iraqi women and children killed by soldiers in Haditha? :(

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/

I KNOW I wouldn't be able to stand it if any of my loved ones were killed in a war that they never even chose to be a part of.

[IRescue452]

Popcornbird, you are absolutely right. There hasn't been a war on American soil for the longest time, so we forget what it would be like living in Iraq and hearing gunshots outside our windows. We got scared becase they flew airplanes into 3 buildings (far from most of our homes), imagine having your homes ransacked and destroyed and being left with a pile of rubble. Or the poor children without parents tryng to survive. To hell with feeling sorry for our troops, they never lived though anything that bad.

[caseysmom]

I feel sorry for the troops and those innocent Iraqis. I do not feel sorry for those particular soldiers if they are guilty, and they are being tried for murder.

[lizbud]

I KNOW I wouldn't be able to stand it if any of my loved ones were killed in a war that they never even chose to be a part of.


I believe that's what most Americans thought on 9/11 when this country
was attacked by Islamic extremists.

All the usless loss of life, for what?

[dogzr#1]

It's really sad :( One of the soldiers lived 30 min from me. The family was on the news yesterday, and said they only wish that he come home safely. Now today, they found out he died, a most gruesome death... it's just sad. :(

[Cataholic]

Popcornbird, you are absolutely right. There hasn't been a war on American soil for the longest time, so we forget what it would be like living in Iraq and hearing gunshots outside our windows. We got scared becase they flew airplanes into 3 buildings (far from most of our homes), imagine having your homes ransacked and destroyed and being left with a pile of rubble. Or the poor children without parents tryng to survive. To hell with feeling sorry for our troops, they never lived though anything that bad.

What? Where does it say one cannot express remorse for a particular heinous death without naming all heinous deaths?

Why can't I express remorse for this event without any others being mentioned, or this one being discounted?

[sparks19]

while it is interesting to see everyones theories on this being the worst war ever it is simply being blown slightly out of proportion. In the past 3 years 2500 US soldiers have been KIA. Of course 1 casualty is too many but to put it into perspective, 2500 or more per YEAR are murdered BY Americans on American soil in pursuit of NOTHING except maybe a few bucks out of someones wallet. Secondly, the numbers do not even COMPARE to Vietnam.

The violence over there is mainly between the citizens of Iraq. Suicide bombers, kidnapping, torture. All those things would be going on there whether we were there or not. It's the way they are. WE did not create the violence there. The violence there is the REASON we are there.

Now I do not condone war. No one should. War is a terrible thing. but all I have heard is what the wrong thing to do is. No one seems to have any ideas for the RIGHT thing to do. It is easy to talk about what should be done when you aren't the one that has to do it.

[RICHARD]

I have changed my views on the war.

I think that after 9/11 we should have waited until the Millenium Bomber
took down the Needle in Seattle.
Or blown up LAX....


That was kind of dumb to go out and look for a war over two buildings in New York.

I thought the gas plan for the New York subway system was a little over the top. It already happened in Japan.

Terrorists need to be more creative. :confused: :rolleyes: :eek:

[caseysmom]

If this war is in response to 9/11 that is news to me. I wasn't aware there was a connection between Saddam and 9/11, I thought him and Osama were arch rivals.

[lizbud]

If this war is in response to 9/11 that is news to me. I wasn't aware there was a connection between Saddam and 9/11, I thought him and Osama were arch rivals.


I did not say there was a connection between 9/11 and saddam. We were
talking about feelings & emotions that were the same. If not for 9/11, we
would not be looking for Islamic extremists. If anything, it's these bizarre
religious zealots who have caused this suffering.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Terrorists need to be more creative.

Like rent a truck and blow up a building you know contains a day care center?

[caseysmom]

I did not say there was a connection between 9/11 and saddam. We were
talking about feelings & emotions that were the same. If not for 9/11, we
would not be looking for Islamic extremists. If anything, it's these bizarre
religious zealots who have caused this suffering.

I wasn't referring to your post lizbud, I thought Richard was infering that the war on Iraq was in retaliation for 9/11.

[lizbud]

An article from a local paper today.This describes what it's like in Iraq
now.They have a unique & up-close experience that can teach us all to
better understand how it feels to be fighting there.It's worth the read.


Jun 24, 8:01 PM EDT

Returning Guardsmen worry on Iraq's future

By KIMBERLY HEFLING
Associated Press Writer

HATTIESBURG, Miss. (AP) -- They are returning home with a sense of accomplishment, but also with feelings of anger and frustration, even despair.

They speak proudly about building up the Iraqi security force, restoring electricity and watching Iraqis walk miles to vote.

But they wonder whether it will be enough to secure Iraq's future, and at times, express bitterness toward the people they wanted to help.

"They're using our good will, our good-nature policy against us," says Sgt. Bobby Walls, a 38-year-old Pennsylvania National Guard member. "The fact that we fight as the good guys sometimes turns around and kicks us in the can, you know?"

Such are the swirling emotions for troops returning home from Iraq. Among the most recent of those returnees are members of the largest contingent of Pennsylvania National Guard troops deployed to a combat zone since World War II.

Fifteen from their ranks of about 2,000 were killed during the nearly yearlong deployment in Iraq's Anbar province, a huge swath of land that's a stronghold of insurgency. Two others are being investigated in connection with the shooting death of an Iraqi civilian earlier this year.

For the rest of these part-time soldiers, it can be a struggle as they return home this summer to regain the sort of normalcy they knew before spending a year with their lives in danger wherever they went. During stopovers at Camp Shelby in Mississippi on their way home, some talked about their experiences.

******
Walls felt helpless and furious as he stood at ground zero on Sept. 11, 2001, one of several Philadelphia police officers who on their own drove New York City to help. He vowed to become an infantryman and get even, so the father of three went off inactive status in the Navy Reserves and joined the Army National Guard.

At boot camp, the other recruits - many just 18 - called him grandpa. He lost 45 pounds in basic training and scout school that followed. Then his unit was sent to Ramadi, which he nicknamed the "meat grinder." He worked as a sniper, usually with just one partner.

At night, they'd sneak into rural villages and urban areas, tracking suspected terrorists for hours at a time. Sometimes, they'd kill them.

Back at the base camp, Walls became hyper-vigilant. He'd fear if he went to sleep, he would die.

"You start realizing how vulnerable you really are all the time," Walls says. "You're not safe anywhere in that damn place, and that's a bad feeling. Too many guys got hurt or killed just walking to chow ... or running to the bathroom, and they don't come back."

Walls is proud of the work he did as a sniper. He said he killed "upper-tier insurgents" who would have likely killed or injured other American soldiers if they had tried to capture them.

He wonders, though, about the future of the Anbar region. The people "will not be pacified, they will not work with us. I don't ever see it happening," he says.

Walls says insurgents wear civilian clothes and use women and children as shields.

"If you're going to fight the enemy, there are two ways to look at it. You either become just like them, fight them on their own terms or you take the heavy burden like we're doing it right now and it's going to cost American lives. It's a hell of a price to pay but if you fight them on their terms, you're no better than them.

"That's the true dilemma of the soldier right now, to get his sanity and keep his morals, keep his integrity. And it's hard. It's a ... minute-by-minute struggle ... over in Iraq."

----

Children looking for handouts of candy would often approach 1st Lt. Anselm T.W. Richards and the men in his platoon. The soldiers would oblige them, then ask for information.

Sometimes, the children would tell them who made bombs and dealt in weapons. Everybody in town seemed to know the answer.

One day, Richards says, the parents of a 12-year-old boy told him their son had been beheaded by insurgents because he accepted a soccer ball as a gift from soldiers.

"We said to the parents, 'You tell us who did it and we will get them.' They said if we talk to you, they'll kill us as well,'" says Richards, a hedge fund broker from Philadelphia.

"That's the fear in which these people live. That's probably the biggest hindrance to them moving forward."

Like Walls, Richards believes no one should be too quick to judge the small group of Marines being investigated in the Nov. 19 deaths of 24 Iraqi civilians, including unarmed women and children, following a roadside bomb that killed a fellow Marine.

"My question is why are people so curious and so eager to find fault with the Marines or soldiers whose lives are on the line," he says. "Why is it their behavior that's being questioned, not the behavior of the guy placing the IED, or the bomb."

He adds: "If it's because children were killed or women, it's understandable, but you know what, those Marines who are killed are children of someone as well."

Among the difficulties: Richards says Iraqi insurgents know the U.S. troops wouldn't fire at a school - "so they will set up on a school or put a sniper on the roof of a school."

Richards says the region is safer than it was a year ago, though five of his men were injured by a roadside bomb just a few weeks before the end of their deployment. Among other accomplishments, he says his brigade helped expand the hours of available electricity each day and trained Iraqi police and security officers.

"I'm optimistic in that I feel like I've done everything that I can do and we as a group could possibly do," he says.

"Is it enough? I don't know because that area, again this is Ramadi ... it's just such a grip, the insurgency. For them to think or to see anything else is so foreign to them."

----

As much as he hates to admit it, 1st Lt. Michael Green, a Pennsylvania state employee from Hershey, says he found it hard at times to like the Iraqis.

He was furious to learn some Iraqis blamed the Americans for a suicide bomb attack that claimed the life of Lt. Col. Michael McLaughlin, the first Pennsylvania Army National Guard officer to die in combat since World War II.

After a year in Iraq, "It's not that I feel so different about the war," he says. "I feel different about the Iraqi people because I saw the bad sides along with the good sides, and before all I saw was potential."

He was so angry that he wanted to shoot some construction workers who had pretended, he says, not to have seen a vehicle driven by the kidnappers of a small boy.

He says he wanted to help catch people responsible for bombings and other violence but that townspeople often didn't want to get involved.

To be successful in Iraq, he says, Americans "need to learn the culture well enough to get inside it" and convince the people that terrorism is dishonorable and brings shame on their family.

"They have all the materials they need to be a strong country. What they probably lack the most is the democratized individuals making decisions collectively ... It's more of a 'Why should I get involved?'"

-----

Sgt. Thomas Farley turned 58 in Iraq during what he calls his "last military adventure." His first was in Vietnam, where he was an Army combat photographer and reporter.

Farley, a father of four, spent 14 years in the active Army before joining the National Guard in Philadelphia as an enlisted infantryman.

In Iraq, he spent part of his time taking photos for a newsletter.

One shows a smiling Sgt. Michael Egan, 36, with his arm around another soldier, at Camp Shelby before the unit's deployment. Egan was killed in Iraq by a roadside bomb.

"Some guys can't even look at the picture," Farley says.

Farley says soldiers live with the fear that if they don't stay alert at all times, they could get hurt or killed. The Iraqi insurgents, he says, cannot be underestimated.

"They're very patient. They watch us constantly," Farley says. "They are not the knuckleheads that some people think they must be."

Farley says the sectarian violence must be resolved in the Sunni Triangle or Iraq will never been a working country.

"I'm sure it can be done," he says, "but I'm not sure anybody really knows how to do it yet."

[DrKym]

ok not to Inflame anyone but as the ex wife and best friend of a former vietnam vet and a marine, I tend to give credence to his views, as for this war being a 2nd 'nam his opinion is that it isn't even close. As for our troops dying his opinion is that we all knew it was an possibility. As for the innocents dying over there his answer is simple (and painful) we are all at the mercy of that which governs us as a whole. Does that make it more acceptable ? in my opinion No but I am not a soldier(blessed be they that give of themselves so others may live) I am not hearing gunfire and screams out my window(what an awful way to to try and sleep and escape to better life by dreams) I am not calling the shots..........................oh wait I AM I can VOTE and to vote with my beliefs and separate them from false promises, any war is tragic this one especially so, so I urge all of us to have a say in our governing body every chance we get. (if I have inadvertanley offended anyone please accept my apology)