A puppy may be coming home?

[Dixieland Dancer]

I called several owners of Dixie's puppies yesterday to wish the pups a Happy Birthday and find out how they were doing. (ok, I know I'm a little obsessed!) All of them were doing great, adapting well, and fitting into their new homes wonderfully, except for one. :(

I was told he is very aggressive and has bitten her one son just a couple weeks ago. He was feeding him a Frosty Paw and he moved the cup slightly while the pup was eating and the dog bit him! It was not a actual bite but a graze that had blood surface. I was and am in shock! This is a GOLDEN RETRIEVER we are talking about. :confused: Has anyone ever seen an aggressive GOLDEN???? :confused: :confused:

I thought things were wonderful because they have never contacted me for help and I extended the offer to have any of the owners call me anytime if they needed help.

Well now, she wants me to work with the dog and get him trained or take him back. I have agreed to come to her house and see the dog and how he interacts with her kids. However, I really think I will make an offer to get the dog back, train him, and find him a new loving home.

If the dog is aggressive it is because of his environment and lack of something! He came over to Dixie's birthday party in January and he was very skinny, so I am thinking he is not getting enough to eat. I was told by several people then not to worry because he was still just 7 months old and perhaps was growing slower. Dusty weighed 61 pounds then and he was only 44! He was the second biggest male when he left my house at 8 weeks!!!!

I am very mad and upset about this! :mad: :mad: Just wondering what you guys would do. Try to work with her and the family to make progress in his current environment or offer to take the dog back, train him, and find him a new home?

And to make matters worse, she just had a baby a week ago so I am wondering if she will even have the time to spend working on this problem? Her other two kids are 11 and 13, both boys.

[Logan]

My first thought was for you to get him out of there! Then I started thinking about the older kids..... :( I know how Helen would feel if ours went away. But if he isn't getting proper care or attention, then I selfishly would like to see him come out of that environment.

Maybe when you go over there, you'll be able to tell for yourself what the environment is like, what he's being fed, how much, etc. If he's hungry, you bet he'll want to snap! And unfortunately, some Goldens do anyway. :( I felt a little gratified that he was being given Frosty Paws, which is a big splurge around here.

I guess if she's turning him over to you for training, you are within your rights to take him back. Keep us posted on what you decide. I will keep the little guy in my prayers too. I'm just glad you're there to intervene.

Logan

[sabies]

You are so responsible and caring! Wish everyone whe bred dogs was like you!

Maybe these people don't understand how to raise or deal with dogs and helping them with training would be enough. With a new baby and the way things are going so far it might be too much for them.

I would make the offer of taking the dog back. If the woman really believes the dog is aggressive I doubt she'll want to keep him with a new baby around.

And don't be mad, be glad you checked on the guy :).

[lizbud]

Candy,

After reading your post , I think you should go with your
instincts on this. You know this pup's potential better than
anyone else. I don't think he should stay with these people.
Not because they are 'bad' people, but because it does not
seem from your post that things are working out to well for
the family or the pup. If there is a new baby coming, the dog
just might get more overlooked in the shuffle. I'd take him
back where you can work with him.( Think I'd try to place
him somewhere else). Just my 2 cents worth. Please just
trust your 'gut' feelings on this. Liz & Buddy.

[Gio]

I would work with the dog in the family environment only if the dog is properly treated and fed and loved by the whole family. I agree with Logan you should also see how the older kids feel but at the same time you don't want something like this (or God forbid worse) happens.

If you have any doubts on this and you feel that the family does not interact in the appropriate way with the dog, just take him back, before they get rid of him some other way.

Whatever you do you know that we are all behind you. Please keep us posted.

[Albea]

Candy:
I also think that, after you see the pup in his home, you may want to take him with you if you believe that he's not getting enough food or attention.
Not everybody has a sweet daugther like Logan's Helen. Two boys of that age may be too involved with sports or other school activities and not willing to spend enough time with the dog. Nothing can make a Golden more neurotic than the lack of human companionship:( On the other hand, from everything I've learned volunteering for YGRR, they are so incredibly responsive to a change of environment and a loving home.
I'm sure you'll do what is best for the puppy. Good luck and keep us informed.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

I'm going to stick my neck out here but I wonder if one of the kids tease the puppy when it's trying to eat. I had a step-sister who when my parent's dog was trying to eat, would take her food away from her. Even though my parents would get after my step-sister, she kept it up. Finally, the dog got so no one could get near her when she was eating. She was the sweetest tempered dog you could imagine usually. It started with behavior like you described with the pup, a little nip because she thought the food was being taken away.

Maybe this is the pup for Aunt Jazz' parents? Just a thought.

[Presley]

Hi Candy..
What a shame.. It really makes me sick to hear about animals not being treated right. :mad: I found myself wandering into our SPCA yesterday, They have so many dogs and cats there it is sick...:(
Anyways, I think you need to follow your heart. (That is something the breeder told me to do about my so called friend re Presley) You and only you know what is best for that pup. If taking him back is what you have your heart set on then you do that. Personally it is a bit shocking to hear that he has bitten her son. Maybe he did so with good reason? The thing with the frosty paw could be because they just didn't let the dog know it was ok to take food away and so on... Presley could be eating the most wonderful thing and i can come along and take it from her and she wont do a thing... I want her to be like that.. She can't think she rules over me and attack me because i did something she didn't like. Maybe these people do need some help.. But please Candy do go with what your heart says. If things don't look good around there then take him home to a loving family who will help him and Feed him and Train him.
44 pounds..WoW... Well we both know what Presley weights:o
I think she was 44 pounds around 4 months.. more -->:o
Oh well all i can really say is my girl is happy and healthy and that is what is important to me :D
I will always do as my heart says for now on.. My heart told me long ago not to leave her with some people and i did for my own selfish reasons...
Anyways, Take care and goodluck with that puppy... If things look ok try and talk to them about the food too.... If they are not accepting of the talk then i think you know what is best for him.

take care
Melissa & Presley

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
Maybe this is the pup for Aunt Jazz' parents? Just a thought.

That thought had crossed my mind as well! They are looking for a female but perhaps because it is Aunt Jazz's great nephew! :rolleyes:

Kathi and Bob are out of town at a SAR convention but I will talk to them about it when they come back. :D

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer

That thought had crossed my mind as well! They are looking for a female but perhaps because it is Aunt Jazz's great nephew! :rolleyes:

Kathi and Bob are out of town at a SAR convention but I will talk to them about it when they come back. :D
Would it be best to have the dog first, just in case? I'd hate for them to get their hopes up and then the family not give the pup up. They've been through so much all ready.

Frankly, if it was me, I'd go get the pup. With a new baby soon in the house, one nip could be big trouble for everyone. Seems like the owners have all ready decided he is aggressive. Youngsters tend to scatter and wave food around. Of course, it would be a while before the baby would be old enough to do that. I'm behind you, whatever you decide.

[mugsy]

Candy....I say, go get the dog and if they give you crap about it, offer to refund the price of the pup. It doesn't sound like he is being taken care of very well and perhaps the bite was because he was hungry! As popular as Goldens are you shouldn't have a problem rehoming him.

[Kfamr]

This is a GOLDEN RETRIEVER we are talking about. Has anyone ever seen an aggressive GOLDEN????


when i read that i immeadiatly had to reply, didn't read no longer.

ANY dog can be aggressive ANY dog can bite. This dog seems to be food aggressive and there are class for it and stuff..... i basicly wanted to say ANY dog can be aggressive... it could be how they are treated or just in their genes and stuff.

[Logan]

One thing that we probably know 100% is that this isn't genetic, since Dixie hasn't experienced this problem with any of her other puppies. I truly believe that this is a result of something that happened in that household, and it is Food related!

KayAnn, you are right about the fact that any dog has it in them to be aggressive, but you should read Dixie's whole post, and what she knows about the whole situation. She's very concerned, and she obviously hasn't ever seen an aggressive Golden, at least not in her pack!

[RachelJ]

Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer
However, I really think I will make an offer to get the dog back, train him, and find him a new loving home.


I think you already have the answer.

[aly]

Did the mom witness the bite or is she going by what her son said? The reason I ask is because the dog may have just been going for the food and accidently got the boy. I know my lab was the most gentle thing in the world but when food was around, she was a real chow hound and would go for it without thinking. She accidently got my fingers a couple times, but it was nothing aggressive.

Do you have contracts you have people sign when they buy a puppy? If not, it might be something to consider. That way you could have a clause saying you had the right to take the puppy back if you felt the home was not working out.

[shais_mom]

Honestly I think:
1) You should go get the dog. Obviously these people don't measure up to dog ownership. I can't believe they spent the money on a golden with your bloodlines. They would have done better with a free puppy ad. Tho that puppy wouldn't have anyone that cared about it.
2) I agree with KayAnn. Since this puppy obviously isn't socialized properly it probably is aggressive. I often worry about Keegan with this.
3) Has anyone ever seen an agressive golden?
Let me see-- A friend of mine has a nine year old golden that bit another friend's daughter. Yes the little girl was in the dog's face. But still you can't say she wasn't aggressive. That same dog just went after a man in her home when he walked in and handed her mom a piece of paper.
--My little 'angel' went after a policeman the other day parked in front of my garage. THANK GOD she is a puppy, he is a dog lover and a very good friend of mine, and her tail wagged about 50% of the time but not all she was serious. Or I could be in a world of hurt for letting her out the door off leash and unmuzzled. This coming from the puppy who JUST got over excitement peeing when people would come in the door.
4) What would happen if you replace the dog breed with GERMAN SHEPHERD? YORKSHIRE TERRIER? BOXER? AKITA? LABRADOR RETRIEVER? PIT BULL?
I can tell you there wouldn't be a post.

BOTTOM LINE===
CANDY GO GET THAT DOG AND GIVE IT OR FIND IT A BETTER HOME. IT DESERVES BETTER

[Cincy'sMom]

Candy-if all breeders were like you I don't think we would have the problems with dogs we do in theis country! How excellent of you to follow up on all the pups.

My gut instinct says get the dogs out and rehome it. It sounds as if this family has not done proper training or given the dog proper attention for the first year, and with a new baby I don't belive that will change. I worry things will only get worse for the dog and if they decide to get rid of it, can you be sure they would call you and not drop him at a shelter? Not a chance I would want to take.

The softer side of me then says, give them a chance. Go to their house, work with them, observe how they treat the dog...if after a visit or two it seems they are not doing the dog right, them take him out. Maybe one phone call was exaggerated and things are better then they seem (but with the history from Dixie birthday, maybe not :( ).

Good luck with your decision. I know you will do what it best for the dog!

[KYS]

Now I am going to be waiting to see what you do. :)

I think you should wait and see what happens when
you actually go down to their home and feel it out.
If the dog is well cared for, loved and it's just
a problem of training and they are commited
to do what ever is needed to keep their beloved
pet as a family member than I would work
with them.
If not, than take the pup back and find him a home
that he deserves with lots of love.

You have a good heart and care.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

DIXIE TAKE HIM BACK. The older kids will get over it, the dog will not. It sounds to me like they had the best of intentions but some people are so busy living their lives with work, kids they sometimes forget they have a pet. With a new baby, the mother will not have time to take care of that pup and if left to the kids he will get fed whenever they think of it.
If she is willing for you to take him back, the bond cannot be that strong, I would not give up my dogs for any reason even though they don't like people or other dogs.
None of your dogs are like that, there has to be a reason, maybe teasing with food, I think this pup would do better with maybe a couple no kids.
When we got Daisy she was the last pup in the litter and the little girls carried her around from piller to post, never letting her down. Today she hates to be held and absolutely will not have anything to do with kids.
Knowing how great your dogs are Kathi and Bob may want to take on a male, why not? I didn't want a male and then when I saw Perry I fell in love with him.
If you can't keep him, with the quality of your dogs, I'm sure you would not have any trouble finding him a home.
Just my two cents worth!
Jackie

[RachelJ]

Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer


That thought had crossed my mind as well! They are looking for a female but perhaps because it is Aunt Jazz's great nephew! :rolleyes:

Kathi and Bob are out of town at a SAR convention but I will talk to them about it when they come back. :D

As one who had been absolutely, positively convinced that I only wanted a female, please tell them that there are those of us who would have sworn that they wouldn't be happy with a male and have been converted......BIG TIME!

[shais_mom]

I had a thought earlier about this topic.
Candy, I think you should do whatever you can to get that puppy back in case the family decides to make it a 100% outside dog or worse take him to a shelter.
Altho I don't agree about the aggressive golden retriever. Bottom line is that dog is not in a good situation and in order for him to reach his potentional as a golden retriever he needs removed from the household. I don't think any amount of working with them will do any good b/c they simply and sadly don't care.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by aly
Did the mom witness the bite or is she going by what her son said? The reason I ask is because the dog may have just been going for the food and accidently got the boy. I know my lab was the most gentle thing in the world but when food was around, she was a real chow hound and would go for it without thinking. She accidently got my fingers a couple times, but it was nothing aggressive.

Do you have contracts you have people sign when they buy a puppy? If not, it might be something to consider. That way you could have a clause saying you had the right to take the puppy back if you felt the home was not working out.

No, the mom did not witness the bite. Actually it wasn't a bite as much as a nip. The teeth grazed his cheek and caused blood to surface.

As for a contract, YES, all puppies were sold with a three page contract. Here are a couple excerpts of the contract. The first one has my blood boiling because I never got a call from this family that there may be a problem.

5. The SELLER will be available to help BUYER with any questions or problems that he or she may have for the life of the dog!

8. If at anytime the SELLER feels the terms of this contract is not being fulfilled and the health and well being of the Golden are in question, action will be taken to remove the Golden from the situation.

I spoke recently with the person who headed up the basic obedience class of this dog. She happens to be a member of the Pittsburgh Golden Retriever Club (of which I am also a member) and was told she believes the problem is environment.

They came to class but it was apparent that they did not practice from week to week and eventually they did not finish the first class or basic obedience. My contract states that they are to take 1 puppy kindergarten class and 2 series of basic classes.

I am going on the 18th to evaluate the dog and I am prepared to bring him home if necessary.

All of the owners of the rest of the puppies in the litter are thrilled with the new addition to their families and all are doing great. I talked to several after I found out this problem and other than chewing issues (which are normal at this age) nobody thinks their dog is aggressive.

I will keep everyone posted! Thanks for giving me suggestions, opinions, and a place to talk this out!! ;)

[DoggiesAreTheBest]

I have been away since Thursday afternoon, and from the looks of it, there has been some action on the board.

Candy, if the dog is at all aggressive, it is not your fault at all. His family is to be blamed. We all know the quality of puppies you breed and as all the others said, you shouldn't have a hard time rehoming him!

True, kids are very attached to their dogs, but if the dog and the boy had a bond he would have never bit the kid! Dogs may growl at their owners if hungry or in pain, but when there is a true bond, no one ever gets bit! The kids may be cruel to the pup or mess with him when he eats. If he is skinny like you say, then chances are he is protective of his food.

It is never too late to help this puppy. Take him home with you and work with him. Pehaps Kathi and Bob will take him. If not, I am sure you can find him a better home. He deserves it!

[lizbud]

Candy,

I just knew you were a knowledgeable & responsible
breeder of the beautiful Golden Breed and would not
let one of Dixie's pups fail to get the best of treatment
by a family who is not wholeheartedly committed to raising
him. I've heard that one day in the life of a dog is equal
to one week in human terms. Can't wait till you get to
go evaluate the pup & the enviroment first hand.

Best of Luck & Godspeed. Liz & Buddy.

[Dixieland Dancer]

:mad: :mad: :mad: I am boiling at the moment. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Knowing that they had a problem with the dog and their children, they let them alone together and another incident happened. This time the boy was taking a chew toy from the dog and he did bite him. The boy required two stitches.

I have made arrangements to get the dog back by this weekend. I am not going to evaluate the dog and the environment. I am just bringing him home where I can work with him and get him ready to go to another loving home.

If the dog is aggressive then I will have my work cut out for me to counter condition the dog. I just am so mad that they never let me know what was going on until last week. This is soooo unfair to the dog but I'm sure we can straighten it out.

[Cincy'sMom]

Good move...get that dog out of there!!! It may be work for you, but I am sure with your love and patience that dog can be rehomed to someone who will take proper care of him!! Good luck and keep us updated!

[Logan]

My only addition to the comments would be....why do you have to wait until the weekend????

Seems like he needs to come home to you NOW!!! Poor baby. :(

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by Logan
My only addition to the comments would be....why do you have to wait until the weekend????

Seems like he needs to come home to you NOW!!! Poor baby. :(

Well it seems that they took the dog to her brother in law who lives 3 1/2 hours from them after the last incident. They do not have children and supposedly the dog loves them to pieces???? They promised to get the dog later in the week and let me pick him up on Friday. I told them I would meet them half way and pick the dog up but they won't agree to that. I don't know why. They also informed me that the dog is still crated at night and sleeps in the basement. During the day he is let out of the crate and put in a confined room. He does not have freedom in the house. No wonder it is having social problems. :mad:

I told the guy I wanted him by Saturday so he can be at the party. I want to watch him interact with the other dogs from his litter!

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer
Well it seems that they took the dog to her brother in law who lives 3 1/2 hours from them after the last incident.
That sure seems odd to me since they knew you were interested in getting him back. No wonder the poor guy has problems, being kept cooped up all the time. I'd bite too! Good luck on getting him back.

[wolflady]

OMG!! {{{Dixieland}}}
I am so glad you called to see how all of your pups were doing!! You might not otherwise have found out! :eek:
That's what I like to see in breeders. How annoying that these people didn't approach you earlier about this! It sounds like this guy is a little food aggressive, but kids should also be aware not to bother a dog while it's eating (chewing a toy) :( It certainly sounds like they didn't keep up their side of the bargain. They didn't finish the classes and socializing properly, and the poor dog is locked up most of the time. It's so sad that things like this happen, but I'm relieved to know that he'll be back with you soon! Do keep us posted on his progress! He definitely deserves a better life than that!!

[AmberLee]

{{{Candy and puppy}}}

!!! What a situation you find yourself confronted with! I will hold you and Dusty's litter mate in my thoughts and prayers. It definately sounds like something is seriously wrong for that poor puppy's sake. Do keep us updated!

[Logan]

This seems to be getting worse by the hour. :( Poor boy, at least he is out of the d%$# crate and the basement....excuse me while I say a few words under my breath :mad: . Why didn't they just pick up the phone and call you??

I hope that my initial reaction to this newest post is completely wrong......I hope that you indeed to get him back, Candy. Fingers and paws crossed here. :)

[lizbud]

Hope these people are not just playing games with you
on this Candy. :confused:

Prayers & Best Wishes that you're able to get him back
home with you . Prayers and Best Wishes to you on this.

[Gio]

Poor dog!:mad:

Isn't this a case of breach of contract. Best of luck Candy, I'm sorry you have to go through this.

[Dixieland Dancer]

On a happier note of this whole ordeal, I told a couple people from the Golden Retriever Club about the situation. I had a few offers for permanent homes for the poor pup. Kathi told me not to do anything with him until she gets back from her vacation (her and Bob are going to England until the 15th). She said they want to check him out and see if he has potential for SAR work and if he does, they want him!!! :D :cool: :D :) :D I didn't even ask her. It was their decision! :D

I hope that is what works out. He will be loved immensley there and will be trained by people who have experience. I think this is something the pup needs!

I told her not to worry, I am no hurry to rehome him. I want to evaluate him to see what his problems are and work on them before rehoming him. I do not think we will have a hard time finding a new home for him.

I also hope that the family is not playing games with me. :mad: They have done enough damage already!

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Dixie, I'm confident that if anyone can retrain him and bring him back to his potential, it will be you. I do hope these people are not just playing games with you, let them know this is not a game with you, that you mean business.
I just know these kids have teased him and caused these problems and the mom and dad are too busy to see that. You would think if he nipped the kid once they would be a little caucious about them playing take away the toy game.
I sure hope it all works out and you get him back, he deserves a better life than what he has had. I just can't believe people like that. After you pick him up they will be out looking for another dog probably, the cycle never ends.
Jackie

[hobird58]

I just came on this morning, have been too busy to read posts for the last few days and I have read all of them on this subject.

I WANT TO BITE THEM TOO....

I am a golden mom and cannot believe what this poor pup has gone through to make him aggressive. I can certainly understand why he is though.

I think it may be fate intervening here if all works out and the dog can go to Bob and Kathy and be a rescue dog. Goldens love giving (never taking) and this poor pup apparently has been taught to take because it was his only choice. I have a feeling when you get him back he won't show any signs of aggression toward you or anyone else that treats him with the love he deserves.

I am so thankful that you called to check on the pups, way to go and good luck with whatever happens. Please keep us posted.

Just thinking of my golden baby being aggressive makes me know this is a pup in trouble.

Thanks again for letting us know and letting us (I hope) help a little.


S&S
(Sally and Sierra)

[Albea]

Candy:
I hope that, for the puppy's sake, those people are really going to give him back to you. You are the most qualified person to bring him back to his Golden personality. It would be so wonderful, for him and for them, if he ends up with Bob and Kathy. I know you will keep us up to date, we are all anxious to know the poor little guy finds the home he deserves.

[Dixieland Dancer]

I talked to the owners of Cooper (that's the dogs name) last night about making arrangements to get him. They informed me that they have changed their minds and want to keep him. :mad: They are going to have a professional trainer come in and evaluate him and work with him. :confused: His name is Armond Rapitinio (sp?) and he is a renowned trainer and is listed in the Guinness book of World Records as being able to train dogs fast.

I am quite upset about this. I want Cooper to come back to me more than ever now since I have doubts about his life there. I never heard of this trainer and I looked on the web and couldn't find anything about him.

The guy said that Cooper is a big part of their life and they owe it to him to try to work it out. How much more time are they going to waste? :mad:

This is physically draining me since it has me genuinely worried about one of Dixie's babies. I wish I knew what to do. :(

[DoggiesAreTheBest]

Candy,

Is there a clause in your contract that says you can take the pups back for specific reasons? If so, look into that. I would call the owners up and give it to the staright up! Express your concern for Cooper and ask to come and evaluate the living situation he is in. If you go and see that it is no acceptable and that your concerns are valid, then resort to your contract terms and go from there.

I think seeing Cooper and the environment he is in will put your mind at ease and help you decide what the best solution for Cooper is!

[lbaker]

Candy, is there any way you could manage to be there at the same time as this so-called "expert"?:confused: Maybe you could tell the people it would help if you were there to answer any "background" questions the "expert" might have. That way you could both check out the situation and if expert is any good at all he could possibly be on your side about taking Cooper back with you.... just a thought :( Laurie

[lizbud]

Candy,

I was afraid of this.:(

From these people's evasive answers previously.
I don't believe them at all about hiring an
independent trainer to work with the dog. Pure
B.S.:mad:
P.S. What does it matter if someone is the "fastest trainer"? More B.S. I would not believe
a word they are telling you, but would insist on
adherence to the original contract they signed.

[DoggiesAreTheBest]

8. If at anytime the SELLER feels the terms of this contract is not being fulfilled and the health and well being of the Golden are in question, action will be taken to remove the Golden from the situation.

They came to class but it was apparent that they did not practice from week to week and eventually they did not finish the first class or basic obedience. My contract states that they are to take 1 puppy kindergarten class and 2 series of basic classes.



You do feel that the health and well being of Cooper are in question. According to your contract, you can remove him from the home. You should insist on evaluating the situation yourself!

They also violated your contract by not taking the pup to obedience classes. This clause is a bit vague and can be a cause of debate if there is no time limit set for that regulation.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Here is why I feel my hands are tied.....

The person I am dealing with is a lawyer. Both him and his wife practice out of a very affluent firm. Even though they signed the contract, I am sure they will make me go to court to prove neglegence and I am not financially able to incurr that kind of expense. I know this sounds lame but I don't know how to enforce the contract at this point.

Can someone with more law knowledge than me, please shed some light on something I can do?

I'm sure even if I do go to court, they will make mince meat out of me. :mad:

I have asked to have the dog evaluated when I was present. I was told that it will be on Thursday the sixteenth in Williamsport (4 hours from me). I can not take off from work that day because there are only two people from a systems side that support the mainframe. My co-worker is out of the office that entire week on vacation. Normally I can take off with little problems as long as one of us is available for support.

They have agreed (so far) to let me know what the evaluator says and to evaluate the dog for myself after the other guy does. I feel this is just a ploy though. Basically, the dog is not even in their home right now. He is with a relative supposedly for a little vacation while they get adjusted to having a new baby around. The baby is only a couple weeks old at this point. What Bull!

[Rachel]

This may be one battle that cannot be fought with confrontation or allegations or trying to enforce the contract. Do everything you can to make them aware you are available to help them and work with them and provide the fall-back plan of a place for the dog should their other ideas not work out. I agree with Liz that they are giving you a lot of B.S., but I also think your evalutation about just how far you would get in a standoff with them is correct. Unless they want to cooperate with you, they won't. The challenge is to make them want to. I know that might not be possible, but it is an option to consider.

[zippy-kat]

dixie,

i hate to be the __ (looking for the right word), but please remember to keep in contact with the humane societies/shelters in the area... these ppl seem sneaky--wouldn't put it pass them.

{{hugs}}

[lizbud]

Candy,
I believe this to be only a matter of "Contract Law", and
could be settled in small claims court.Small claims(anything
under $2000 ) is handled by this court.No attorney is needed
in this court. I personally would feel better talking to a good
"Contracts" attorney before filing a case in court. They would
need to read the wording in the actual contract. Contract law
is pretty "cut & dried". The Judge would decide whether they
fufilled their end of the contract. It's not up to you to prove
anything. You should however get supporting letters from
the school that the dog attended stateing the class was not
completed. Also the biting & stitches incident should be
verified for the Judge. Don't be too intimidated by the fact
that they are lawyers. "There are lawyers& then there are
Lawyers". They might not know "diddley about"contract law"
My daughter is a very knowledgeable attorney. If you want,
you can e-mail me a copy of the original contract & I will forward
it to her to read & offer advice. All The Best, Liz.

[Dixieland Dancer]

WOW! That would be wonderful. Thanks a lot! :D

[DoggiesAreTheBest]

Maybe Liz's daughter will be able to give you some advice.

I do not understand why the owners are being so ugly and misleading. Obviously they do not care enought about the dog if he is too skinny and seems to be aggressive. So, Cooper is staying at a relative's home while they adjust to the new baby? Adjusting to a baby takes alot more time than adjusting to the weather change? So instead of him staying with the relative, why couldn't he have stayed with you so that you can work with him? Do you think they are going to have time to meet with the trainer if they are so busy with the baby?

Why won't they just let him go! Why do they care now all of a sudden?

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by DoggiesAreTheBest


Why won't they just let him go! Why do they care now all of a sudden?

I wish I knew! :(

He did say last night when I talked to him that Cooper is no longer skinny. He said they have increased his food and he is at a good weight of about 73 pounds. Dusty is 75 so if he is telling the truth then he is around where he should be. I haven't seen him since Dixie's birthday party and he was VERY skinny then. One way or another, I will be telling them I want to see him.

I am wondering if they have given him to the brother in law permanently and this is just a smoke screen so I won't know. I did tell them after I worked with him, I would try to rehome him in a environment where the people have had experience training dogs in the past so they could make sure he was counter conditioned for his aggressive behavior! :confused: Perhaps they understand he will not be having ANY contact with them.

[Dixieland Dancer]

An update!

Liz contacted her daughter (I believe she is a contract lawyer) and forwarded her a copy of the contract that Cooper's owners signed. She said it is an enforcable contract. I will be contacting the State bar association to get a referral and a consultation to see where I can legally go with this.

I will do everything possible to get Cooper back and find him a new home!

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Dixie, good for you, I'm glad you got this information. It sounds to me like they have given Cooper to the brother-in-law, no doubt about it.
I think they were to busy with their corporate lives to bother with Cooper and thought he could take care of himself, or left him to the kids to take care of. I think they felt they were living the perfect life with the house, the kids and the perfect dog only it didn't turn out that way. I do believe the answer is to get Cooper back and see what the problem is and the longer it goes on the worse for Cooper it will get. For goodness sake who knows what they are feeding him for one thing, how did he gain all that weight so quickly. Well, I for one will breathe a sigh of relief when you get him back.
Dixie you are the best.
Jackie

[Corinna]

I know this is going to sound bad,but I think if they are in a very good firm maybe making it uncomfortable for them at work can go a long way. Lawyers need to have their reputations especially in large firms . They are told to deal with personal problems and not let them come to the office. I think I would let them know you will make life uncomfortable if they don't compliy with the contract they signed. I also would put exact times and dates in a regestered letter so they can't say we did't receive any thing . I'd send it to their work that way who ever opens the mail knows too. I also would have all the other puppy owners make statements as to the condtion at the party. If you have pictures of all the dogs at the party get them to geather. I had this problem with a horse not a dog . I avodied court by all the above actions, The guy was worse he was a judge in our county.
Good luck Hope you can get good help from others.

[aly]

Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer
The guy said that Cooper is a big part of their life and they owe it to him to try to work it out. How much more time are they going to waste? :mad:


Maybe give them the benefit of the doubt. They made a big step by getting a trainer. I commend them for that. They probably don't think they are wasting time. There might be a chance of fixing the problem. I'm sure the trainer will tell them to spend more time with their dog. This seems like it *could* be a good solution. If it doesn't work, then you could always take him back.

I just think we all have too little details without seeing the situation firsthand. Try not to worry Candy, this could just be blown out of proportion. On the other hand, it might not be so its good that you're prepared to act.

[Albea]

Candy:
I do hope there is a legal solution to this problem. Those people don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. They had you running around in circles for too long. :mad: In the mean time, it's poor baby Cooper who has to adjust to new situations. Who knows by now if anything they have told you is the true. They may be counting on the fact that you will not drive four hours (of course they don't know you) to meet with the trainer, if there is a trainer in the picture.
Good luck in your search for a good lawyer.

[kobieeli]

Whew! I just had a marathon reading session getting caught up from the beginning of this thread....

What a horrible situation, Candy. It seems to me that this couple is being difficult just to spite you, that they know they're in violation of the contract, and that they are lying up a storm as well. Why do people go out of their way to get marvelous dogs and then neglect them, mistreat them, and generally make the dogs miserable?

And honestly, if the PARENTS are behaving this way, guess how their CHILDREN will be in another few years! :mad: Idiots. They know they have no one to blame but themselves for this problem with Cooper, and they just don't want to face the music and do what's right. (The right thing would also be for the entire family to go through training, not just Cooper--this is hardly the dog's fault!) Instead, now they're scrambling for help, backpedalling on answers, and acting like they care. Right. Too little too damn late.

I hope your meeting with the state bar people goes well today, Candy, because you definitely need to act on this. I know you won't rest until you're at peace with Cooper having the home he deserves.

[AmberLee]

I've lost track. Was the meeting yesterday? Any hope/new status?

[Dixieland Dancer]

The meeting with the trainer is on the 16th. It is a Thursday and will take place about 4 hours from where I live. Unfortunately my co-worker is on vacation this coming week and I am not able to take off. If I was, I would go too! Since there is only two in our department, the boss said no when I asked him if I could take Thursday off also.

I am going to demand that the dog be brought back to the original owners house so I can go see him on the 18th. We will see. :(

I still have not been contacted by the Contract Lawyers office. I will follow up with that on Monday.

[Pam]

Candy, like Kobieeli I just now caught up with this thread. First of all, let me commend you for calling to check on Copper! That right there shows that you are a breeder who cares about her pups. I doubt that many breeders do that. I have gotten all 5 of my dogs from breeders and only had one follow-up letter. The breeder was being forced out of her home (had been renting and the house was being sold and was going into an apartment.) She had asked me if I could take Whitney's brother because she knew Whitney was in a good home. Unfortunately I couldn't at the time. :( Anyway, I say all of that only to point out that you are obviously a very caring, concerned breeder (not that anyone on this board needs reassuring!!!)

Secondly the tales this family are spinning are amazing. When I read that their new trainer is in the Guinness Book I almost laughed out loud! Come on! Get real! It sounds to me like the dog has probably been given to the brother-in-law or at least plans are being made along those lines. Just too much is not ringing true here.

Thirdly, I agree with everyone that your contract sounds like your best chance of getting Copper back. The wording in it couldn't be clearer. I do hope that you can work through this legally and be victorious!

Candy, I know how much you love Dixie, Dusty and all of these pups. You must be heartbroken just thinking of the possible damage that has been done in his development. Hopefully things will wrap up quickly and you can get him back and start to repair this damage. The fact that he was in a crate in the basement makes my blood boil!! :mad: :mad: I will be thinking of you on Thursday and anxiously waiting for your update. Prayers are going up that you will be successful in getting Copper back.

[Pam]

Any news yet Candy? I know yesterday was the meeting between Copper's current owners and the trainer. Did they give you any feedback? Will you get to see him tomorrow? You're in my thoughts!

[carrie]

Candy, you have my sympathy and please know that I really feel for you at the moment - this must be incredibly difficult for you.

From what has been said I find it hard to believe you will see any aggressive behaviour from Cooper. The two incidents seem to be food related and with one person and I think that a person trainer not a dog trainer is what is needed.

I think it is unrealistic for two intelligent people to imagine they will have the time or energy to sort out what they see as problems with the dog. The very fact that they have gone to a man famed for his quickness at training dogs shows that they are not ready to commit for a long haul with this dog. They need to understand why the incidents happened, that alone will take time and energy and then they can start to understand how to make sure it never happens again.

They do not sound like bad people to me - just ignorant of the time and energy needed to ensure that a dog is happy and healthy and even less aware of what can happen when a dog is not cared for ALL the time the way it deserves to be cared for.

I would think about offering them visits to see Cooper at your house before you go with the law and mention that they should of consulted you before passing the dog on to a third party.

As I said, I would not be at all surprised if no aggressive behaviour is seen but Golden's are as likely to be aggressive as any other dog - in fact it is the breed that most often tops the biting scale in this country. That is mainly because it is a popular breed of dog but it also shows that the are capable of aggression.

A genetic defect is also a possibility. Because the rest of the litter have not shown any aggression does not make it impossible - it may be a new mutation or a recessive trait or the first sign that the line is "overbred" leading to weak nerves.

I have certainly come across aggressive goldens many times - nine times out of ten it is owner error - and I am sure that it is with Cooper.

I am very keen to know how you get on and wish with all my heart that you can persuade them that they are not the right people and it is not the right time in their lives for Cooper.

Good luck, Candy, I am sure that Cooper needs only confident handling and some understanding and there will be no more problems.

[mugsy]

It's the 18th...any news on the Cooper situation??? I really hate stupid people and I think these people qualify!! I've been wondering what's been happening. Good luck and I hope to hear from you soon!

[Dixieland Dancer]

I have not heard from these people on how the consultation with the super wiz dog trainer went. :mad: I have left several phone messages and am not getting any replies back. :mad: :mad:

At this point, I am so totally confused about what I should do. I want to get Cooper back and I made an appointment for the 28th to speak to a Contract lawyer about it. I don't want to tip my hand too soon so they are aware of my intentions. I already am clueless to where he is since they have given him to the relatives. :eek:

I wish I had better news to report. :(

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Dixie, I know how you feel about those dogs, they are your life like Daisy and Perry are mine and I just am sick over this for you. I think you are right not to tip your hand right away. I think it's best to talk to the contract lawyer before you do anything else. See what they have to say first. I'm sure they will advise you on the right path to take. I'm sorry you have to go through this as I know how worried you are about Cooper, we will all pray that it turns out that you get him back soon.
Jackie

[mugsy]

This sounds ominously like the Tobey situation. I think you can probably take them to small claims court too, but I would talk to a lawyer first. Generally speaking the animal makes a surprising reappearance then the law gets involved. You may want to contact the local police to see if there are any possible answers there. Good luck.

[lizbud]

Candy,

I too am so sorry that this had to happen this
way. If only some people looked at their pets
as family and not trophies it would help.:(
Try not to worry about Cooper's wereabouts; an
attorney if authorized by you, can make these
people produce the (property) dog.Sorry to word
it that way, but the laws do consider them as
property. After you have had a chance to meet
with your state's lawyer & consider your options
then you'll know better what to expect.Again, I'm
so sorry this has happened. I can only guess how
much emotional turmoil you are going through.
Best Of Luck, Liz & Buddy.

[lizbud]

Candy,

Just checking in to wish you All The Best in
your appointment today.Hopefully this attorney
can give you some piece of mind & let you know
what your options are under Pennsylvania law.
A contract is a contract in any state, but the
steps used to ensure compliance might be different. Best of Luck & Godspeed. Liz & Buddy.

[ramanth]

Yes! Best of luck! Please keep us in touch when you can.

[tatsxxx11]

Good luck today, Candy! I'm so sorry you had to go this route. Most of all we're rooting for the sweet, innocent little pup. Love to you from Sandra, Cody and Star

[Dixieland Dancer]

The lawyer said I do have grounds to stand on with the contract. After our discussion, here is what I have decided to do.

1. Find out what the trainer said about the dog.

2. Interview the brother in law who has the dog now and see if I feel he is capable of dealing positively with Cooper. He will need to fill out a contract also if he proves to be a good candidate home. This contract will state he is to contact me every three months with behavior updates and sooner if he thinks he has a aggression problem.

3. If he does not agree to the contract, I will take the dog back immediately. I am also prepared to pay 1/2 of the purchase price of the pup back to the original owners. If there is a hard time at that point, then I will file suit and get the dog back legally.

I am really hoping that it doesn't get to the point of legal intervention.

Thanks for all the moral support and encouragement. It means a lot! :D

[ramanth]

Woohoo!!! I pray this all works out in the end. For Cooper AND you!

[lizbud]

Candy,

For what it's worth, I think you have formed an excellent
plan. Especially getting the "new owner/ brother-in-law" to
sign a new contract. They can't help but get the point that
you take your dogs(and their welfare) seriously.You are a
model for reputable breeders everywhere. All The Best to you.
Liz & Buddy.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

All things here that can be crossed are, in hopes everything works out for you and the sweet Pupster!!!

[AmberLee]

Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
All things here that can be crossed are, in hopes everything works out for you and the sweet Pupster!!!

MOFF put it so well, I agree completely. Good luck to you and Cooper.