Where do you stand?

[Lobodeb]

Are you for the immigration reform or against it?

I'll tell ya, there couldn't be a bigger dividing line between me and my hubby. He is against it, I'm for it. He thinks I'm anti-immigration, which I'm not. I just think if you want the same rights and liberties as me, then you'll do what's required by law.

Where do you stand?

[Lady's Human]

Illegal immigration has got to be stopped. Corruption in Mexico (the main reason illegal immigrants state that they cannot emigrate legally) is not the fault of the United States government. Lax or nonexistent border control IS the fault of Congress and the Administration.

[moosmom]

I believe that the borders should be closed and that the laws be made stricter as far as illegal immigrants are concerned.

Everytime an immigrant enters the US illegally, a LEGAL resident of the US is shortchanged.

There was a story in the paper a few days back about an illegal immigrant gave birth in the desert so that her child would be born a legal immigrant. What next???

We need to start taking care of our own LEGAL residents.

[Samantha Puppy]

I just think if you want the same rights and liberties as me, then you'll do what's required by law.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Edwina's Secretary]

It depends......how do you define Reform???

I strongly support a guest worker program. ( :eek: :eek: GWB and I agree on something....although I'm sure for very different reasons....)

And... I do not think immigration from Mexico is the only immigration that is occurring illegally.

And....I do not think illegal immigrants are sapping government services or medical services.... they are AFRAID to go to the emergency room or social services for fear of being caught and deported. Most are paying taxes (payroll deduction....same way most of us do!)

I believe anyone who wants to make a home in the US must learn the English language (hello Miami!!!) And I think a whole lot of US citizens should work on their ability to speak proper English while we are on the subject. (There is something about a very ungrammatical rant against people not speaking English.)

I believe there is LOTS of xenophobia blowing around the current discussion.

I do not believe immigrants are taking away jobs from citizens. Unless, of course, your children are aspiring to cut my lawn, tar my roof, pick my strawberries or clean my house.

And I hope anyone who is ranting about "them" having all the benefits of citizenship is voting in every election and volunteering for jury duty....you know...those citizen rights everyone is worrying "they" are getting for free?

[Miss Z]

Well, I suppose I'm not talking about the same thing (although I have seen the American immigration problems on the news), but in the UK there are immigration problems too. I would support any country becoming tighter on immigration. I know that there is war and corruption in many other poorer countries but they can't use more developed countries as a sanctuary illegally. There was a programme once about how illegal immigrants get into the UK, and many cling to the bottom of lorries going through the channel tunnel:eek: . Unfortunately, when they arrive in our country and I'm sure this could be the same in the USA, many will turn to crime to make a living as they will find it very difficult to find work. Not only that, but population is swelling to maximum, especially here in the UK as we are such a tiny group of countries. Around 5 million new houses are built in the UK each year which destroys some of our beautiful countryside, and the demand gets higher as more people enter the country. The UK needs join with America and also become stricter on immigration laws too.

[Lobodeb]

And....I do not think illegal immigrants are sapping government services or medical services.... they are AFRAID to go to the emergency room or social services for fear of being caught and deported.

On the contrary, I saw something on 20/20 or Dateline (I can't remember which) that illegal immigrants are part of the reason that healthcare costs are rising so quickly. They aren't afraid to go to the ER because they have a fake name and SSN and don't worry about having to pay the bill, so the hospital is stuck with the costs.


I believe anyone who wants to make a home in the US must learn the English language (hello Miami!!!) And I think a whole lot of US citizens should work on their ability to speak proper English while we are on the subject. (There is something about a very ungrammatical rant against people not speaking English.)

Chicago is the same way! I agree 100%!


I do not believe immigrants are taking away jobs from citizens. Unless, of course, your children are aspiring to cut my lawn, tar my roof, pick my strawberries or clean my house.

Again, bravo! You've said what I feel better than I could! ;)

[lizbud]

My Grandmother & Grandfather immigrated to the US from Ireland. They
came here by way of Ellis Island which was the starting point for entering
this country for many, many people. I voted unsure because I don't really
know what the immigration policy is now. I don't know what should or
should not be changed. Does anyone know today's policy?

[momoffuzzyfaces]

I'm for reform. We need to get those borders sealed - NOW!!!

I'm not against immigration. I'm all for it but through the legal channels.

I get really cheesed off seeing them wave the Mexican flag. HELLO!!! GO BACK TO MEXICO AND WAVE IT THERE!!! WE AREN'T THE UNITED STATES OF MEXICO - YET ANYWAY. Inspite of Dora the Explorer and all the other sneaky things being done to teach us Spanish instead of them learning English. (like making Spanish a REQUIRED class in schools and using Spanish on commercials and other tv shows)

One thing I wonder: If GB waved his magic wand (and I'm convinced he has one if only in his mind) and made every illegal here an American today; how long would they work at the wages they are currently being paid? I bet after a while they would say, Whoa! we are now Americans and deserve a better wage!! And they would be right!!! Physical labor is hard and can wreck your health. Seems strange that a country who is so agast at sweat shops in other countries, would allow such low wages to be paid here whether to illegals or not!!! Just something to think about!!!

And yes they do sap the resources; the kids can go to schools free and lots of them get free medical service. I can't do that even being disabled!!!

I just get mad when they are here illegally and demand RIGHTS!!! which they don't or shouldn't have since their being here is AGAINST THE LAW!!!

I think anyone who knowing hires illegals should be fined for each one hired. But that's just my opinion.

[Edwina's Secretary]

MOFF...there is a fine for each illegal hired knowingly by a company. There is a federal law, known as IRCA (Immigration Reform and Control Act) of, I think, 1986 or 1987 that sets out the fines.

I have a relative by marriage who was here for many years illegally. He did not drive a car nor go to a doctor out of fear. When he broke his leg a friend of mine who is a radiologist privately took the x-ray. But, as he was not legal all that meant was he in fact KNEW his leg was broken (I didn't have any orthopedic friends.... ;) ;) )

Just food for thought. What if we sealed the border with Mexico, a nearly impossible task? Could the results be a revolution in Mexico? A communist or other unpleasant US hating government on our flank? Then we could invade them (at what $$ and lost lives??)

It is not a simple problem and there are no simple solutions.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

MOFF...there is a fine for each illegal hired knowingly by a company. There is a federal law, known as IRCA (Immigration Reform and Control Act) of, I think, 1986 or 1987 that sets out the fines.

I have a relative by marriage who was here for many years illegally. He did not drive a car nor go to a doctor out of fear. When he broke his leg a friend of mine who is a radiologist privately took the x-ray. But, as he was not legal all that meant was he in fact KNEW his leg was broken (I didn't have any orthopedic friends.... ;) ;) )

Just food for thought. What if we sealed the border with Mexico, a nearly impossible task? Could the results be a revolution in Mexico? A communist or other unpleasant US hating government on our flank? Then we could invade them (at what $$ and lost lives??)

It is not a simple problem and there are no simple solutions.

A revolution in Mexico or one in the USA? Which would be best??? We are heading that way if something isn't done about this. There are already around 11 million illegals here and hundreds crossing in every day.

:eek:

[Lobodeb]

A revolution in Mexico or one in the USA? Which would be best??? We are heading that way if something isn't done about this. There are already around 11 million illegals here and hundreds crossing in every day.

:eek:

I wish I would have brought my camera with me today. The march has begun right outside my office window. Hootin', hollern' the whole 9. :eek: :rolleyes:

It's about 10-15 people across and it's been going on for at least an hour now....going strong.

Mexican flags everywhere. :mad:

[Edwina's Secretary]

Without the money sent home by the illegal workers here, the poverty would be even worse in Mexico and those who were not working here would be unemployed there. Possible sending an already tottering country on our border over the edge.

This is why I support a guest worker program as a reform.

I do not see the same potential for revolution or an unsavory form of government (present administration excluded) here.

[beeniesmom]

My grandparents and parents had to wait 7 years to get the "call", giving them permission to come to the US legally. I think everyone should do it the right way. They had a hard life in Italy in the 1960's... dirt poor. They chose to go about improving thier life the right way.
I am happy they did.
I do however think that the US should not deport everyone. It's a difficult topic.

[dab_20]

I'm not really sure and don't know enough about the topic... but I'm more for it then against it I think.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

well I'm completely annoyed with it all to be honest and I have 2 points on it. my family and I didnt expect german aisles in walmart when we got to America. we didnt expect products to be in german, and didnt expect people to understand german. if I'd known I'd have to learn a THIRD language and culture just to get by in america, I wouldnt of come back. you are practicly REQUIRED to speak spanish if your going to work 3rd shift at teflon (factory) here.... i'm in tennessee... which is in america... and americans speak english right?
I feel bad for getting just so angry at spanish on products and a mexican aisle in walmart and spanish billboards and signs and this and that but jeez.... if your giving ILLEGALS special treatment why not me? wheres my milchreis, my montelinos in walmart???

they broke the law, stop rewarding them for it. just because the cop didnt catch them in the act doesnt mean it should be forgiven. they wouldnt forgive me if i sold drugs or killed someone.

Those who are skipping school or work should be expelled/detention, and fired because if *I* missed a day at my job for something like this, thats what would happen to me.
I agree with you. Even lots of food labels (even the ones made in the US now have Spanish lables. Why not French too? If they are going to come to OUR country; they should do the changing not force us to.

Lots of signs on stores here now have both English and Spanish on them. Sure looks to me like they've already started taking over our country. Now, they demostrate for rights they are not entitled too. Come in legally and they are welcome but not sneaking in.

I realize not all of them want to stay here but need jobs. A better worker program would sure help.

[RICHARD]

I feel bad for getting just so angry at spanish on products and a mexican aisle in walmart and spanish billboards and signs and this and that but jeez....


My dad was from Mexico and I get mad at the Mex aisles in the store too...
The crap that passes as authentic really sucks!

But letting a "guest worker" law go into effect you will just invite more people and better forgers.

At this point the government is too busy to compare notes on who is here legally....Look at 9/11...I think we have just enough to figure things out but
none of the agencies took the time to compare notes. :eek:

by the way "GUEST WORKER" is another stupid phrase...If you are a guest you shouldn't be working-except when you go to Gini's house-she expects to be pampered! :eek: :confused: :o ;)

----------------------------------

The next president, who looks like he is gonna be a Dem, better get his arse straight on this topic.

Mexico has so many natural resources that it makes me sick-and the reason
that the country is on the verge of collapse is that jerk FOX...his political party won - the same political party ran the country for 76 years...

They made it farther than communism..those frealing commies wanted to run the world, the politicos in Mexico just wanted to rule something.

Talk to the leaders.

Or send George Clooney down there, he has the answers...but then again, who will cut his lawn, or take care of his kids??

[Edwina's Secretary]

My dad was from Mexico and I get mad at the Mex aisles in the store too...
The crap that passes as authentic really sucks!

But letting a "guest worker" law go into effect you will just invite more people and better forgers.

At this point the government is too busy to compare notes on who is here legally....Look at 9/11...I think we have just enough to figure things out but
none of the agencies took the time to compare notes. :eek:

by the way "GUEST WORKER" is another stupid phrase...If you are a guest you shouldn't be working-except when you go to Gini's house-she expects to be pampered! :eek: :confused: :o ;)

----------------------------------

The next president, who looks like he is gonna be a Dem, better get his arse straight on this topic.

Mexico has so many natural resources that it makes me sick-and the reason
that the country is on the verge of collapse is that jerk FOX...his political party won - the same political party ran the country for 76 years...

They made it farther than communism..those frealing commies wanted to run the world, the politicos in Mexico just wanted to rule something.

Talk to the leaders.

Or send George Clooney down there, he has the answers...but then again, who will cut his lawn, or take care of his kids??

You know RICHARD, I had a boss once who, every time I used a technical compensation term would say...."that's a stupid term!" And I always wondered....what am I suppose to do? Guest worker is a common term used....you don't like it....make up a better one for the concept. For some reason the governments of the world and the economists, etc., failed to consult with you before coming up with this term. ANd your example is grammatically incorrect. A working guest does not have the same meaning as guest worker.

Illegal immigrants are going to come to this country. A guest worker program...or whatever you care to call it it...would certainly be better than the current disaster.

Oh, and by the way.....

George Clooney doesn't have children and Fox belongs to PAN....which has NOT been the ruling party for 76 years. The ruling party in Mexico for decades before his election was PRI. Geez :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
(That's like calling Bush a Democrat!)

[cyber-sibes]

Unless you are a native-American, all of our families began here as immigrants. I know all of my grandparents did. They came in and did what was required to become legalized citizens. Why should people now expect to do it differently? If you want to be an American, fine. Do it legally.

[Sevaede]

I think it is a tad off that they are waving Mexican flags when the issue is about them becoming American citizens.

I am a dreamer but can realize that a lot of my ideas are a bit far fetched. I believe in equality. I think immigration is all fine and dandy but it should be done legally, you know? Isn't it kind of insulting and unfair to those who did go the right route?

It all boils down to this: ES is right. This is not a simple problem and there is no simple solution. One way or the other, a lot of people are going to be very pissed off.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

I don't know but I do know the demonstrations just made me resent them being here illegally even more.

Not only the Mexican flags waving but the "We shall overcome" and "WE are America" signs I saw!!!

Maybe instead of worrying about Iran and their Nukes, we should "help" Mexico next. Surely there is some way to help their economy without taking over ???? besides letting them run our country I mean. :confused:

[Corinna]

MOFF couldn't agree more. I also agree that come here but do it legally and then be able to have rights and benifits we enjoy. We allso have to chance the born here law of immagrents too many getting here to have the kid knowing we can't send a baby back , there for can't send parents back either.

[RICHARD]

You know RICHARD, I had a boss once who, every time I used a technical compensation term would say...."that's a stupid term!"

I said stupid PHRASE. Politcally and grammatically incorrect? That's me! ;)




George Clooney doesn't have children and Fox belongs to PAN....which has NOT been the ruling party for 76 years. The ruling party in Mexico for decades before his election was PRI. Geez :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
(That's like calling Bush a Democrat!)

The secret meaning to the adoption POV was A Jolie.

About the PRI and PAN I was trying to say that he was part of the NEW ruling party.......I guess I didn't try hard enough to "Bust My Hyphen" :eek: :p :D

--------------------------

A short story.

Dad was a man of short sentences and big lessons.

When we were kids he took us to a farm to pick some tomatoes to can, and earn a few bucks. -that's the key to being Mexican and Catholic-lot's of kids to put to work!! ;) :eek: :rolleyes:

1) I swore that I would never give up knowledge to end up as a farm worker.

2) THAT IS A TOUGH JOB- Mud, insects and DDT (in those days..)

3) You picked a box, turned it over to the guy on the wagon and he gave you a ticket....Lot's of tickets? Lot's of money! (25 cents for a 25 lb box or some ridiculous amount like that) This was the late 60's, BTW.

So take your kids out to do some menial job like that...make them appreciate what they have and what they don't have to do to live.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

A short story.

Dad was a man of short sentences and big lessons.

When we were kids he took us to a farm to pick some tomatoes to can, and earn a few bucks. -that's the key to being Mexican and Catholic-lot's of kids to put to work!! ;) :eek: :rolleyes:

1) I swore that I would never give up knowledge to end up as a farm worker.

2) THAT IS A TOUGH JOB- Mud, insects and DDT (in those days..)

3) You picked a box, turned it over to the guy on the wagon and he gave you a ticket....Lot's of tickets? Lot's of money! (25 cents for a 25 lb box or some ridiculous amount like that) This was the late 60's, BTW.

So take your kids out to do some menial job like that...make them appreciate what they have and what they don't have to do to live.
When I was a kid, in the 50s, if we wanted spending money, we collected pop bottles and turned them in. They were worth a grand sum of 2 cents each. Lucky for us, there were lots of them because pop was not put in cans yet. :eek:

Now people in this area collect the cans and turn them in to help pay their utility bills.

[lizbud]

When I was a kid, in the 50s, if we wanted spending money, we collected pop bottles and turned them in. They were worth a grand sum of 2 cents each. Lucky for us, there were lots of them because pop was not put in cans yet. :eek:

Now people in this area collect the cans and turn them in to help pay their utility bills.


Moff,

I can't believe someone else besides me remembers doing that. :D
My brothers & I collected & returned bottles to get money for movies
or candy, etc. Ah, those were the days. :)

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Moff,

I can't believe someone else besides me remembers doing that. :D
My brothers & I collected & returned bottles to get money for movies
or candy, etc. Ah, those were the days. :)
:D I didn't think anyone else even remembered pop came in BOTTLES!!! :D

[gini]

:D I didn't think anyone else even remembered pop came in BOTTLES!!! :D

Yoo Hoo, over here - it's me waving............I remember doing that! Anyone remember food tokens - and margarine that came in a large bag that was pure white and you had to mix it up with the red dye in the middle?

But back to the "guest worker" issue - and I DO NOT know the answer to this and will try to research it some. BUT, didn't we HAVE a guest worker program here (in California) at one time? What happened to that?

And "guest workers" - how do you get them to go home? If I am not mistaken, this is why the first program never worked.

Initially in the various demonstrations or marches here - all you saw were Mexican flags with a few others (countries) thrown in. Someone got hold of these people and told them to put them down - because there were tons of brand new American flags being waved on Monday and very few Mexican flags.

There is just one word that causes me the greatest problem and that is RIGHTS! So many that are here illegally talk about their RIGHTS -

The other harsh truth is that we as Americans have become soft - if we told a pack of teenagers that they were going to spend a day in the fields picking berries or grapes or vegetables - they would rebel - and then go back to playing with their i-pods.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

There is just one word that causes me the greatest problem and that is RIGHTS! So many that are here illegally talk about their RIGHTS -

The other harsh truth is that we as Americans have become soft - if we told a pack of teenagers that they were going to spend a day in the fields picking berries or grapes or vegetables - they would rebel - and then go back to playing with their i-pods.
Yea the RIGHTS issue has me seeing red too!!!

They think the streets of America are paved with gold and I guess for them they are!!! Can't blame people for taking what is freely offered I guess!!!

I wonder how many pop bottles I would need to cash if for an ipod???
If I was still a kid living at home that would be the only way I'd ever get one.
Now that I'm a crusty old adult, I find I don't really want one. :D

[Cataholic]

Moff,

I can't believe someone else besides me remembers doing that. :D
My brothers & I collected & returned bottles to get money for movies
or candy, etc. Ah, those were the days. :)


Move over, you two. I am 40 and remember collecting the stuff. I also wished, at the time, that I lived in Michigan, as they got more money for their cans/bottles!!! :D

[RICHARD]

Didn't mean to detour the thread with "tales of yor"...

By the time we were picking up bottles they were a nickel a piece. ;) :p

(for a dollar you could buy a ham and cheese sub, RC cola in a bottle and have enough for a Hostess cupcake/snowball package.)

------------------------------------

Can we set the "rights" issue straight?


They have more HUMAN rights here than they would have any place else.

Civil/Citizen rights you have to earn.

Gonna go off the beaten track for a second.

One thing that does irk me is the "doing jobs that American's would do." line.

To the north of El Lay you can travel to Santa Barbara, in the morning, thru some farm areas where there are men picking veggies in the hot months of summer.

AS you trip back home after a day at the beach, shopping, etc.....they are in a different part of the field, still picking.

Tell a kid that they have to work for a few summers, picking veggies, or go to school -- the kid will pick school.

Tell a kid that they have to go to school, to better their lives - they would rather dropout and slum ......


There is a school up north that is holding a drawing for one ipod each semester for the kid with the best attendance.

NOTHING IS SAID ABOUT GRADES...

So, you can get an ipod for showing up, but learning? That's quite unfair!
(the school systems are paid by attendance, not grades..)

Ergo,

You show up in the US you should get citizenship, but forget learning citizenship..

:rolleyes:





In the afternoon they are

[caseysmom]

I saw that about the ipod's Richard, I just couldn't believe that.

[dogzr#1]

I got this email yesterday and I think it explains my beliefs fairly well. Living so close to the border, we have many Mexican immigrants, and they can get VERY annoying. ones here think they are better than everyone else, and don't have to do what everyone else does.




David M. Bresnahan
April 1, 2006

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.

I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.

2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.

3. All government forms need to be printed in English.

4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.

5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.

6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.

7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.

9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from President Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.

11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.

12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.

13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that President Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help.

Sincerely,

David M. Bresnahan



David M. Bresnahan has over 30 years of experience as an award-winning journalist, broadcaster, radio station owner, talk show host, and business owner. David has been a prominent writer for many Internet newspapers.

Web Site: www.ThatPRGuy.com

E-Mail: [email protected]

[momoffuzzyfaces]

That really hits the nail right on it's illegal head, eh?

Another thing that really bugs me is the way the media always says they all love our country and are just here to "help" us. Sure the ALL are. And I may turn green, grow feathers, and learn to fly too, but I doubt it. :rolleyes:

[BOBS DAD]

Moff,

I can't believe someone else besides me remembers doing that. :D
My brothers & I collected & returned bottles to get money for movies
or candy, etc. Ah, those were the days. :)


We all did that!!! That must have been a National thaaanggg!!! We collected small bottles (Geen Coke and swirled Pepsi's) for 2¢ each. A quart bottle (Yes, a quart - these were the days before we went all metric - 2 litres) was 5¢. Ginger Ale quart bottles were the bomb - they were 10¢ except prohibited by law and 5¢ in Michigan and NY. Those were the days my friend...

[AbbyMom]

We all did that!!! That must have been a National thaaanggg!!! We collected small bottles (Geen Coke and swirled Pepsi's) for 2¢ each. A quart bottle (Yes, a quart - these were the days before we went all metric - 2 litres) was 5¢. Ginger Ale quart bottles were the bomb - they were 10¢ except prohibited by law and 5¢ in Michigan and NY. Those were the days my friend...

If you remember collecting bottles, you must remember those prizes underneath the bottle caps. If you remember the prizes, perhaps you remember fishing in the pop machines' cap cups with a magnet to retrieve bottle caps for the prizes.

:D

[Edwina's Secretary]

Civil/Citizen rights you have to earn.

I have been thinking about this since I read a rather hostile post on here yesterday (that has been deleted.)

What did any of us do to earn our civil/citizen rights....except be born in the right place?????

Of the illegal immigrants in this country, 13% are Asian (according to yesteday's US Today.) I don't know the number but there are many Russians, Poles, and the miscellaneous (such as my relative by marriage...who is now a citizen and like most illegals feared the deportation that could result from driving or visiting a hospital more than he feared spending $7.60.)

All I ever hear about are the Hispanics. I also read that a majority of those crossing the border these days (from Mexico) are from Central American countries.

I lived in Mexico. There are many Americans who retire there because the dollar goes a long way. And they expect to be able to find someone in the stores and gas stations who speaks english....and let me tell you how unpleasant some of them get when no one does! And let's talk about the tourist who go there and expect people to speak english (and shout at them if they don't..as that will help them understand), ask how much things are in "real money" (aka US dollars) ...love the beaches and the resorts....if only there weren't so many of "them" hanging around.

I think we need to change the inscription on the Statue of Liberty...based on the hostility expressed here!

[Lobodeb]

All I ever hear about are the Hispanics. I also read that a majority of those crossing the border these days (from Mexico) are from Central American countries.
I heard that of the illegal immigrants in the US, some (I can't recall the exact figure) 80% or so are latin.


And let's talk about the tourist who go there and expect people to speak english (and shout at them if they don't..as that will help them understand), ask how much things are in "real money" (aka US dollars) ...love the beaches and the resorts....if only there weren't so many of "them" hanging around.

I think tourism is different. If you are catering to foreigners, then you SHOULD be able to speak their language. No?

Just to clarify, at least MY point of view, I'm not anti-immigration. If we had no immigration, this country would shut down. My ancestors immigrated here, too. Like someone said in a prior post, unless you're native american, we all immigrated here. I am anti-ILLEGAL immigration. I don't understand how people who enter this country illegally want to complain about rights! Those people forfeited those rights the day they crossed that border illegally. That's what kills me. I was actually surprised when I heard that they weren't already considered criminals. THEY'RE HERE ILLEGALLY, therefore, they have committed a crime. The way I see it, it's ok for them to come here without following the rules, so if that's the case, people kill people everyday. We can't stop it, so then should murder now be legal, too? I'm exaggerating, I know. But I hope you understand what I'm getting at.


What did any of us do to earn our civil/citizen rights....except be born in the right place?????
To answer your question...NOTHING. We didn't do anything. Nor are we going to a foreign country demanding rights we aren't entitled to. If people come here legally, heck yeah, all rights to them. Just follow the rules, is all I ask.

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

I heard a report on the radio. I don't have a photographic memory so I don't remember exact numbers, but they were very close to what I'm putting here.

In the US,
- an illegal immigrant - on average - earns about $460.00
- a legal immigrant - on average - earns about $700.00
- an immigrant that has attained citizen status - on average - earns about $900.00

The thing I don't remember is if they earn this per week or per month. $460.00 a month seems ridiculously low, but $900.00 a week seems a little on the high side, so I'm not sure about the time period.

But the point is, once all these illegals are made legal, they will start wanting more money to go along with all their newly attained "rights", and then the employers will have to start looking elsewhere for those that are willing to work for less, which will start the whole process over again. Then I'm sure all the newly attained legals will have something different to say about the newly illegals that are being brought in.

To me it's a very difficult issue. Like Debby, I'm not against immigration, I'm just against doing it illegally. Like someone else on the radio said this morning, send all the illegals back and allow those that have been patiently waiting to enter legally in!

[Cataholic]

To me it's a very difficult issue. Like Debby, I'm not against immigration, I'm just against doing it illegally. Like someone else on the radio said this morning, send all the illegals back and allow those that have been patiently waiting to enter legally in!

I say allow the "illegals" that want to work in this country IN, and get rid of the Americans that take advantage of system. :eek:

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

I say allow the "illegals" that want to work in this country IN, and get rid of the Americans that take advantage of system. :eek:
Hmmm....I like that idea too. ;)

[momoffuzzyfaces]

All I ever hear about are the Hispanics. I also read that a majority of those crossing the border these days (from Mexico) are from Central American countries.

I think we need to change the inscription on the Statue of Liberty...based on the hostility expressed here!
Well, my family came from lots of different places except the two I know were Native American. The difference between them and the immagrants coming across the border is the legality of the thing.

My ancestors obeyed the imigration laws that were in place at the time they entered the country. Several of them helped form this country. One was a minute man and was killed during the Revolution. So, excuse me if I don't take kindly to people coming in the country illegally and claiming rights they don't have. Come in through the legal channels and they are more than welcome.

I only saw Mexican flags flying during the boycotts. I promise if I would have seen one from France or Cuba or anyother country, I would have been in a snit about them too!!! ;)

[Husky_mom]

i had to make a statement here...........

I by no means support illegal immigration at all, if you wanna go there, DO IT RIGHT!! because of those people going illegal WE ALL take the blame and the hate from the country they "invade".......

I am wide aware that the mayority of immigrants that cross the border from Mexico ARE from Central America (Guatemala, El Salvador, etc, just to name examples) but there are also mexicans crossing illegally (i have a cousin that went that way and it makes me soooooo mad even more to have that in my family)

also it makes me very angry the way they "protest" in our national news thats all you see: protest about this, protest about that........and all became riots with violence and such i really hate my country for that, for having that kind of culture where they act like...........i really dont know what word to use except the a****** word............

as mentioned how do you ask for the same priviliges and treatment when you have no LEGAL RIGHT to them?? such a moronic idea

sometimes when asked if i would leave to live in TX or somewhere i always say YES!! (of course i´ll be furthar from my close family, but i wont miss my country, sorry to say that but i really mean that, and that because the kind of people that make us all be seen in a bad way)

arrgggg..........ok i´ll take a break since i´ve got more words than i can write right now so i´ll cool off and come back later..........

[Dixieland Dancer]

My son married a beautiful girl from Columbia almost 3 years ago while he was stationed in Okinawa, Japan as a marine. She came here for the wedding and we could not communicate because I spoke no spanish and she spoke no English. We did a lot of sign language (unofficial of course). Since then she has learned to speak very fluent English. My Spanish still is non existant.

They plan on living in the US when my sons tour of duty is over. She applied legally for Citizenship immediately after they were married. They were suppose to go to Hawaii this month to make it final (Closest American soil to Okinawa). My son received a letter stating her citizenship was being held up one more year and would only be granted then if he reinlisted for another year of service. He has already been in the service for 7 1/2 years and is ready to get out. I CONSIDER THIS BLACKMAIL on the part of the American government. :mad:

America is a melting pot for all nationalities provided they follow the correct channels. However, our laws are spelled out and they should not be altered by anyone (immigrants or government). One Nation, One Flag, One Citizenship!

[momoffuzzyfaces]

They plan on living in the US when my sons tour of duty is over. She applied legally for Citizenship immediately after they were married. They were suppose to go to Hawaii this month to make it final (Closest American soil to Okinawa). My son received a letter stating her citizenship was being held up one more year and would only be granted then if he reinlisted for another year of service. He has already been in the service for 7 1/2 years and is ready to get out. I CONSIDER THIS BLACKMAIL on the part of the American government. :mad:
BLACKMAIL was the first word that popped into my head too even before I got to you using it. Can you write any congress people about this??? With immagration being such a hot issue right now, it may help. Maybe CNN would like to air this or something?

[lizbud]

She applied legally for Citizenship immediately after they were married. They were suppose to go to Hawaii this month to make it final (Closest American soil to Okinawa). My son received a letter stating her citizenship was being held up one more year and would only be granted then if he reinlisted for another year of service. He has already been in the service for 7 1/2 years and is ready to get out. I CONSIDER THIS BLACKMAIL on the part of the American government. :mad:



That sure doesn't sound legal to me. That's terrible. :mad: I knew the
recruiters were having a hard time signing up more troops, but this is no
way to go about it.I'd contact a lawyer who is experienced in immigration
and citizenship issues.

[lizbud]

Just wanted to add this. There wouldn't be so many people trying to
enter this country at any cost, if there were not thousands of businesses
so willing to hire them at very low rate of pay.They would rather hire the
cheap labor.

[RICHARD]

I think we need to change the inscription on the Statue of Liberty...based on the hostility expressed here!

Hostility?

More like frustration.

Having worked for an HMO for YEARS I don't see the people that the County hospitals see...

Waiting 12-14 hours to see a doctor because the ER rooms are packed with people who do not have insurance is incredible. It is mostly illegal Immies who have colds or the flu....they see the doc and the billl bounces so you and I have to foot the bill.
In lost angeles we have had about 6 trauma centers close in the last few years.

You get hurt badly, more than likely you will be flown to a trauma center or die in an ER that is not ready to handle your type of trauma.

Why?

Because there are no beds, doctors or facilities available.... :eek:

[AbbyMom]

Just wanted to add this. There wouldn't be so many people trying to
enter this country at any cost, if there were not thousands of businesses
so willing to hire them at very low rate of pay.They would rather hire the
cheap labor.


I agree. In many ways, this is an employer issue wrapped up in politics.

If the employers didn't hire, the illegals wouldn't come. If we would enforce the current laws against hiring illegals, they couldn't come.

Now why exactly do you supposed the laws are not really enforced? Just ask yourself who really benefits from allowing it to continue?

(In this week's Tribune, an anonymous illegal worker described how her fast-food employer gets letters from the social security administration saying X number of SSNs were "not matching.")

So, do you think it's hard to figure out where they're working?

I myself believe in establishing a guest worker program as a way to manage it. If we want to hire them, then let's clean up the system and let them buy insurance, etc.

The hypocrisy of building walls and adding border patrols while hundreds of thousands of businesses benefit from the cheap labor really irks me, though.

.

[Lobodeb]

I saw a guy on the news the other day that was complaining because he couldn't get a job after he graduates with his bachelor's degree because he's illegal. Ummm, how did you get that degree? Financial aid on a phony SSN? Excuse me. I didn't get a free education and I'm a born citizen. You just got a free ride and you're still complaining! Give me a break!

Both of my Grandfathers were born in Mexico and came over when they were only 2. The borders weren't closed then. They both fought for our country, are both decorated with many awards and ribbons and upon their return, were threatened to be deported because they weren't citizens. After they both showed their war accomplishements, they were both granted citizenship. They EARNED it. They didn't break the law, do what they *wanted* to do, then cry when they had no rights.

I better stop now...

[gini]

My nephew was moving a bed, mattresses and other minor furniture in a truck a few weeks ago. He realized that he needed more ropes, cords, to tie everything down, or it would fall off of the truck on the freeway.

He stopped at a Home Depot to buy the cords. As he pulled into the parking lot, he was mobbed - mobbed - by men running around his truck. His first thought was that they were going to steal items off of the truck, so he drove off - never did buy anything at Home Depot.

But what I knew was that this mob of men are the usual group of 30 - 40 men hoping for some last minute job and a way to make some money.

How many more can we accept? Does that crowd turn into 60 - 90 - how many? And this is just one Home Depot - they are all like that. How many are in the families of these people at home - waiting for the Dad to bring home money for the day - in cash?

[BOBS DAD]

My cousin lives in CA and occasionally spouts off about something or another in an Email. He sent this today:

An American working in Mexico! From the other side of the fence.....
The following is from (Tom O'Malley) who was a Director with SW BELL in
Mexico City.

I spent five years working in Mexico. I worked under a tourist Visa for
three months and could legally renew it for three more months. After that
you were working Illegally. I was technically illegal for three weeks
waiting on the FM3 approval During that six months our Mexican and US
Attorneys were working to secure a permanent work visa called a FM3. It
was in addition to my US passport that I had to show each time I entered and left the country. Barbara's was the same except hers did not permit her to work. To apply for the FM3 I needed to submit the following notarized
originals (not copies) of my:

1. Birth certificate for Barbara and I.
2. Marriage certificate.
3. High school transcripts and proof of graduation.
4. College transcripts for every college I attended and proof of graduation.
5. Two letters of re commendation from supervisors I had worked for at
least one year.
6. A letter from The ST. Louis Chief of Police indication I had no
arrest record in the US and no outstanding warrants and was "a citizen in
good standing."
7. Finally; I had to write a letter about myself that clearly stated
why there was no Mexican Citizen with my skills and why my skills were
important to Mexico. We called it our "I am the greatest person on Earth" letter. It was fun to write. All of the above were in English that had to be
translated into Spanish and be certified as legal translations and our signatures notarized. It produced a folder about 1.5 inches thick with English on the left side and Spanish on the right.

Once they were completed Barbara and I spent about five hours
accompanied by a Mexican Attorney touring Mexican Government office
locations and being photographed and fingerprinted at least three times.
At each location and we remember at least four locations we instructed on
Mexican tax, labor, housing, and criminal law and that we were required to
obey their laws or face the consequences. We could not protest any of the
Governments actions or we would be committing a felony. We paid out four
thousand dollars in fees and bribes to complete the process. When this was
done we could legally bring in our household goods that were held by US
customs in Laredo Texas. This meant we has rented furniture in Mexico
while awaiting our goods. There were extensive fees involved here that the
company paid.

We could not buy a home and were required to rent at very high rates
and under contract and compliance with Mexican law. We were required to get a Mexican drivers license. This was an amazing process. The company arranged for the Licensing agency to come to our Headquarters location with their photography and finger print equipment and the laminating machine. We
showed our US license, were photographed and fingerprinted again and issued the license instantly after paying out a six dollar fee. We did not take a
written or driving test and never received instructions on the rules of
the road. Our only instruction was never give a policeman your license if
stopped and asked. We were instructed to hold it against the inside window
away from his grasp. If he got his hands on it you would have to pay
ransom to get it back. We then had to pay and file Mexican income tax annually using the number of our FM3 as our ID number. The companies Mexican accountants did this for us and we just signed what they prepared. I was about twenty legal size pages annually.

The FM 3 was good for three years and renewable for two more after
paying more fees. Leaving the country meant turning in the FM# and
certifying we were leaving no debts behind and no outstanding legal
affairs (warrants, tickets or liens) before our household goods were released to customs. It was a real adventure and If any of our Senators or Congressman went through it once they would have a different attitude toward Mexico. The Mexican Government uses its vast military and police forces to keep its citizens intimidated and compliant. They never protest at their White house or government offices but do protest daily in front of the United States Embassy.

The US embassy looks like a strongly reinforced fortress and during
most protests the Mexican Military surround the block with their men standing
shoulder to shoulder in full riot gear to protect the Embassy. These
protests are never shown on US or Mexican TV. There is a large public park
across the street where they do their protesting. Anything can cause a
protest such as proposed law changes in California or Texas.

Please feel free to share this with everyone who thinks we are being
hard on illegal immigrants.

[BOBS DAD]

What did any of us do to earn our civil/citizen rights....except be born in the right place?????

I don't know about you, but my grandparents came here legally! They did the "tough, dirty work" that ALL Immigrants do - because it was a job! Something they couldn't find in Croatia. BUT it was not the streets paved with gold they had heard about... it took tremendous hard work and a generation or two of menial work, long hard hours in the coal mines, factories and Steel Mills to get to where we are today.

They took what work they could get, paid their taxes and served in the military. They expected and got no special favors. They had to learn the language and exist in a complex foreign environment. My Grandmother had 11 children - all born at home with neighbors serving as midwives. One child died during childbirth. Why? Because they "had NO Health Insurance". My father and his brothers and sister went to "public" school initially speaking only Croatian. NO-ONE offered them any special attention. They taught classes in English and they were expected to pick it up. All my Uncles served in the military and 4 died on foreign soil during WWII and the Korean War. None of them graduated from High School! At 16 they were expected to get a job (my Grandfather's expectation) and make their own way. My father quit school in 8th grade (even though he was an Honor Student), lied about his age and enlisted in the Army. He worked his entire life as a manual laborer, digging graves, pumping gas and fixing other peoples cars. At one time (when all 3 of his boys were in college) he worked 3 jobs to pay the bills. All his kids went to college and now are working professionals and significantly contribute to society.

I know that many of you have the "same" story - just different names and locales. Point is - they did this all legally. Not hiding in any shadows but proudly paying their dues. They adopted their "new" country as opposed to expecting their new country to adopt them. The did not get and did not expect any special favors. I know that Latinos have it rough and those coming here illegally are desparate. BUT something has to be done to right the ship and fix the problem. A festering wound doesn't heal itself - it only gets worse.

So in answer to your query: I think we have "done a whole lot more" THAN JUST BEING BORN IN THE RIGHT PLACE!!!

[RICHARD]

I have thought about what I have done to earn my citizenship.

Nothing.

I do get on my knees often and realize that I do live in fairly decent country.

I do go on jags of being patriotic, sing the National Anthem before sporting events, look after my fellow man, try to be a civic minded person, learn another trivial fact about my country.


I have asked the security guards to fix the flag that flys over the parking lot on a windy game.

I know most of the rules concerning my flag. how to fold it, treat it when it becomes unflyable.

I didn't do anything to get my citizenship.

But I try to keep in good stead regarding the laws and the way it's run.

I respect the office of the country, but not the fools in the chairs.

There are many things l love about my country and many that I dislike.

I cringe on the days when I hear another stupid story that happens in my country-
I really cringe should it come out of Cah Lee Fuh Nee Ah..
But that goes with the territory.

I'll fight and probably die for my country, But I may as well for She has treated me right for all these years.

Have I earned my citizenship? Probably not.

Which should make anyone entering the country, anyone who desires to wrap themselves in my flag, more apt to follow the rules.

I cannot earn my citizenship, but they can.

That is why I feel oh, so lucky that I didn't have to.

[lizbud]

Richard,

We all earn our citizenship every day by staying involved with what
goes on in the political arena in our name. By voting & speaking up we
may well prove lucky enough to live in a free society.

[smokey the elder]

IMO we earn our citizenship by complying with the laws of the land, paying taxes, voting, performing civic duties like jury duty, volunteering, becoming politically active, exercising our freedoms. But I'll admit we are definitely at an advantage because our ancestors did the legwork of becoming naturalized US citizens. During all eras of American history there were immigrant groups at the bottom of the social totem pole. In the antebellum East and South it was the Irish. In the post-Civil War West it was the Chinese railroad workers. They worked hard, were abused, but sucked it up, and made a better life for their kids. 'Nuff said...

[Edwina's Secretary]

I still have my FM3 from when I worked in Mexico. Oddly, I did not have
\to go through such an onerous process as described.

Read this thread..."those people" is not a phrase of respect....

My grandparents came here for the same reason. But...and I am just asking to further the discussion....what WERE the requirements then? Does anyone know? I know the health one, but other than $$$ what did you have to do?

[lizbud]

I was curious also. I found this link that contains general & specific
requirements for immigrants. It also has a history of the immigration
laws & requirements. In the general requirements is one that requires
the person to be able to read, write & speak english. I think that one
alone would cut out a lot of people. :confused:


http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/index.htm

[BOBS DAD]

I think that many of the posts here miss the point! Americans - Old and newly immigrated came here "legally" for a better life for themselves, but mostly their kids. And of course, there has always been some level of illegality or questionable admittance, but those who came here under those conditions (along with those who came legally) "DEMANDED" nothing.

They felt lucky enough to be here and did whatever they could to stay and gain eventual citizenship. They demanded nothing because they felt they were owed nothing. It irks me to see so many people who are here illegally to stand up and demand to be recognised (??? - one might think they would want to keep a low profile) and be given the rights (in some instances, exceed the rights) of naturalized citizens!

[Sevaede]

BLACKMAIL was the first word that popped into my head too even before I got to you using it. Can you write any congress people about this??? With immagration being such a hot issue right now, it may help. Maybe CNN would like to air this or something?

Exact same things that popped into my head.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I think that many of the posts here miss the point! Americans - Old and newly immigrated came here "legally" for a better life for themselves, but mostly their kids. And of course, there has always been some level of illegality or questionable admittance, but those who came here under those conditions (along with those who came legally) "DEMANDED" nothing.

They felt lucky enough to be here and did whatever they could to stay and gain eventual citizenship. They demanded nothing because they felt they were owed nothing. It irks me to see so many people who are here illegally to stand up and demand to be recognised (??? - one might think they would want to keep a low profile) and be given the rights (in some instances, exceed the rights) of naturalized citizens!

But..."demanding" is something everyone does more of than in the good old days....whenever that was. But to your point....what about Emma Goldman for example? In the early 1900's there were many politically active immigrants.

It is interesting to read in the link Lizbud posted, the process has never been "pure." And of course, those rules are for citizenship not immigration.

I thought the point of the thread to be....immigration reform. It has become a discussion of the behavior of "those people."

[gini]

In a New York Times article today about immigration the Border Patrol stated that there were 1,189,067 apprehensions (arrests) in 2005. What needs to be said is that there may be repeat apprehensions included in this number.

The Border Patrol also said that for every apprehension 2 - 3 people make it through.

Since October in San Diego alone, 90,843 people have been apprehended.
Does that mean that 180,000 or 270,000 made it through? That isn't known.

No one denies anyone basic human rights - a place to live - a job to hold - food on the table.

But just looking at these numbers - how many jobs do we have - to provide these basic human rights? How many can we absorb?

Then it is necessary to discuss health care and education.

There is also the horrific number of 50% of children in Los Angeles County alone that drop out of high school - never get their diploma. Is this the future for our country?

Immigration and how to deal with it is a very difficult question, but it is one we have been giving bandaids to for a long time.

[RICHARD]

Then it is necessary to discuss health care and education.



Do WE HAVE TO? :(

[lizbud]

Since October in San Diego alone, 90,843 people have been apprehended.
Does that mean that 180,000 or 270,000 made it through? That isn't known.

No one denies anyone basic human rights - a place to live - a job to hold - food on the table.

But just looking at these numbers - how many jobs do we have - to provide these basic human rights? How many can we absorb?

Then it is necessary to discuss health care and education.

There is also the horrific number of 50% of children in Los Angeles County alone that drop out of high school - never get their diploma. Is this the future for our country?




I believe we are seeing the effects of a lot of things coming together
at one time & the results don't look good at all for people without at
least a college education. The age of technology, political choices by our
leaders in government & business changes like outsourcing some jobs all
work to shrink the potential job market in America.High school diplomas
don't prepare kids for life anymore. Maybe 30-40 years ago,someone could
work a factory job & provide a decent living for their family, but not anymore.

Our society is fast becoming one of the haves & have nots.

[BOBS DAD]

I thought the point of the thread to be....immigration reform. It has become a discussion of the behavior of "those people."

Yes, you are correct. But it seems impossible to discuss Immigration Reform without broaching the obvious central theme driving this subject. Illegal Aliens from Mexico. It is a fact that this is at the core of this debate.

With that in mind, it seems appropriate to discuss the political, social and civil ramifications of endless illegal migration. I have relatives in Ca and I know many illegal immigrants and suspect quite a few more. These are in fact, "fine, hardworking terrific people". I feel for them and would do anything I could to help them get "their papers". I must admit though, I could never imagine any of these folks protesting, organizing marches or demanding anything.

I am afraid that the long parade of illegal immigrants from our southern borders has produced an environment in which "just getting here" is no longer a big accomplishment, but that getting "rights" after getting here has become the paramount issue.

It is a tough issue no doubt... but I think we need to take a tough stand and begin to take control again of our borders and not encourage future illegal immigration by rewarding illegal action.

[lbaker]

Just one thought, or should I say one opinion? Illegal aliens generally do NOT want U.S. citizenship. Americans are very vain thinking that everybody in the world wants to be a U.S. citizen. Mexicans, and other nationalities want to remain citizens of their home countries while obtaining the benefits offered by the United States such as employment, medical care, in-state tuition, government subsidized housing and free education for their offspring. Their main attraction is employment and their loyalty usually remains at home. They
want benefits earned and subsidized by middle class Americans. What illegal aliens want are benefits of American residence without paying the price. No need to jump up and down, as I said... just an opinion.

[BOBS DAD]

The thing I don't remember is if they earn this per week or per month. $460.00 a month seems ridiculously low, but $900.00 a week seems a little on the high side, so I'm not sure about the time period.

That doesn't "really" seem high - when you break it down. As a citizen, you can apply for Civil Servant jobs (Postal Workers, etc.) and earn decent money. You also stand a really good chance of being hired as minorities are given preference and extra points on their exams.

$900.00 a week is only $3,600.00 a month and $46,800.00 a year. That sounds about right. Not to mention that many people choose to continue to hold side jobs - often working for their initial employer (when they were not citizens and sometimes illegals).

Being against Immigration Reform or Anti-Illegal doesn't make you a "bad person" or a bigot. You are just excercising some of your rights as an American citizen - the right to dissent, to have an opinion and freedom to express your point of view!

[Edwina's Secretary]

I'm not sure I agree that some of the comments here have not been rather bigotted....but it is not against the law in any case.

But thre are some myths being repeated here that I think we should explode.

They don't pay taxes.
I don't know about your grocery store but mine does not have a line for those who are legal residents....taxes collected and a separate line for those who are not legal....no taxes. Furthermore, if someone is employed using an illegal social security number...they pay state income tax, federal income tax, and social security income tax (FICA). Because they are illegal, they will never collect social security nor can they file a return and get back any overpayment of taxes.

All the stuff they get free
It is true many foreign nationals do not want to give up citizenship in their native country. That does not mean they want to work here illegally. Despite what some think....it is not comfortable (nor easy) to be in this country illegally. You must always be afraid. Deportation hangs over your head. When I worked in the software industry we had many foreign nationals -- legally (H1-B). Some were interested in citizenship. Some were interested in permanent residence. Many planned on returning someday to their home country. (Always was an issue convincing them to participate in the 401(k). Until they understood they could take it with them.)

An aside at this point....we were hiring H1-B's because we could not find US educated graduates in the software field. I would have preferred to do so. Cheaper of course. My dream was to find a US educated and raised female with the right training. But math and science isn't cool to many of our young people.

There are many countries throughout the world which depend on their citizens working elsewhere and sending home wages. Egypt, the Phillipines are examples.

It is a complex problem with many layers. I do not know what the solution is. I don't think blaming it ALL on Mexican immigrants is the solution. I don't think builidng a wall between the US and Mexico and mass deportation is the answer.

And I don't think taking a Those People attitude helps the discussion. We have seen it before. There was a law denying immigration to Chinese, there was the Know Nothing political party -- dedicated to anti-immigration and anti-Catholic in the 1800's. There was the common sign in business in the 1920's and 1930's....NINA No Irish Need Apply.

Rather than a revisionist and emotional attitude about immigration in the past in this country, I think we should take a realistic and factual look at it and see if we can learn how it fix it this time.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

$900.00 a week is only $3,600.00 a month and $46,800.00 a year. That sounds about right. Not to mention that many people choose to continue to hold side jobs - often working for their initial employer (when they were not citizens and sometimes illegals).

If the illegals are getting $900 a week I'm going to really freak out!!! I don't even get $1000 a month on my Social Security disability after working for over 20 years and paying taxes and Social Security. !!! :eek: :rolleyes:

[Edwina's Secretary]

MOFF....Debbie's post said immigrants who become citizens earn, on average $900.00....as a contrast to illegal immigrants earning $460.00. So that would be....naturalized citizens earn on average $900.00. That is about the national average for a family of four.

But here we see how myths are spread. It went from what Debbie said to illegals earning that amount....becoming postal workers and getting special points for being minorities. NOT ALL IMMIGRANTS -- legal or illegal ARE HISPANIC.

Does anyone wonder how the earnings of illegal immigrants are measured?

And...my grandmother had her children at home by midwives. Most women did. She had no health insurance. Health insurance did not come about until WWII. Employers were under wage and price controls as an attempt to prevent inflation as employers compete for the suddenly limited availability of workers. So to comply with wage controls they began offering fringes, such as health insurance to attract workers.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

MOFF....Debbie's post said immigrants who become citizens earn, on average $900.00....as a contrast to illegal immigrants earning $460.00. So that would be....naturalized citizens earn on average $900.00. That is about the national average for a family of four.

But here we see how myths are spread. It went from what Debbie said to illegals earning that amount....becoming postal workers and getting special points for being minorities. NOT ALL IMMIGRANTS -- legal or illegal ARE HISPANIC.

Does anyone wonder how the earnings of illegal immigrants are measured?

And...my grandmother had her children at home by midwives. Most women did. She had no health insurance. Health insurance did not come about until WWII. Employers were under wage and price controls as an attempt to prevent inflation as employers compete for the suddenly limited availability of workers. So to comply with wage controls they began offering fringes, such as health insurance to attract workers.
Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't even making that much in wages after working for an insurance co for 20 years even with a college education!!!

I've always wondered how they measure things like how certain people's earnings are measured too. Along with how do they know which people women vote for or African American's vote for. They must have our supposidly secret ballots marked somehow. Maybe that's what that x is on the bottom of our ballots. (we still use a pencil when voting here). :confused:

[BOBS DAD]

"Long Haired Freaky People" need not apply...

And the sign said long haired freaky people need not apply
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said you look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do
So I took off my hat I said imagine that, huh, "me working for you"

WOW!!! I just made that up. Honestly!!! :D :D


"All the stuff they get free"...?

There are many statistics that suggest illegal aliens do in fact receive free medical care and social services at a staggering cost to the American economy. I could list many of them here, but I am afraid that it would sound quite slanderous and terribly unfair to the many wonderful, hardworking immigrants who "do" contribute positively to our society. BUT THOSE STATISTICAL FACTS ABOUT HEALTHCARE, WELFARE and LAW ENFORCEMENT are readily available if you choose to find them.

Yes, it's tough - this "immigration thing" and what to do about it, but let's not dance around the facts. It will not help anything and will only serve to prolong the fear, anxiety and discomfort that illegals experience.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Since this is America.....I will continue to believe there are many bigotted remarks being thrown around on this thread and you will continue to believe I am deluding myself.

Oh by the way.....dreaming of finding a female candidate for a traditionally male position is called outreach or affirmative action....not illegal.

But then....Rush Limbaugh probably doesn't mention that.

Truth, justice and the American way....one out of three isn't bad.....

I just made that up...honest..... :D :D :D

[BOBS DAD]

Truth, justice and the American way....one out of three isn't bad.....

That is a good one. I like it. I think it will stick!!!

Rush Limbaugh??? Now that's a crackup! What an idiot!!! NOW THERE'S YOUR BIGOT! I am not sure if you think I really ever listen to Rush Limbaugh (except when I want to hear what the ultra conservative, right winged bigots are thinking today). Any fair minded person can see right through the Rush Limabaugh's of the world. NO... I prefer Al Franken and his popularly titled book, "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot"!!!

But back to one of my earlier posts and a comment you referenced. I did not say that my "grandparents" were born at home but rather "my father". He and his 9 siblings! I am not sure of the facts but I was under the impression that most folks were seeking medical assistance at that time in our country - whether it be a Doctor making housecalls or a visit to the hospital. BUT I AM NOT SURE. Even my mother and her siblings (Coalminers daughter) had a Doctor present. But again, not the point... Point is that they made their own way and their presence in America was no drain on the economy or healthcare - same as your grandparents.

ISN'T IT FUN TO AGREE TO DISAGREE... ONLY TO ULTIMATELY AGREE ON "MOST" THINGS!!!

[Edwina's Secretary]

I assume your grandmother gave birth to your father. I know that is the way it worked in my family!

I said....
my grandmother had her children at home by midwives Perhaps I should have been more cleared and said delivered by midwife so as not to suggest created by the midwife.... :D :D :D

According to my father's stories...poor families especially...only sought medical assistance in an emergency...which did not include childbirth. But, in any case, you paid cash. Or chickens. Medical insurance came later.

When I see people picking strawberries in the fields around here I struggle to think they are getting a free ride and not making their own way....

It is all too true that immigrants (as well as many others!) in this country had a rough time of it and social safety nets were pretty much nonexistent. Hurt at work....oh well! Unable to work because of age or disabled? That's what kids are for....to support you. No food?....there's the bread line.

I just don't know if we really want to use those good old days as guiding principles today.

[BOBS DAD]

Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary: MOFF....Debbie's post said immigrants who become citizens earn, on average $900.00....as a contrast to illegal immigrants earning $460.00. So that would be....naturalized citizens earn on average $900.00. That is about the national average for a family of four.

MOFF, you ae not seriously thinking that naturalized citizens earn a mere $900.00 a year, are you? Or am I just misunderstanding Edwina's post?

Could be... sometimes things get lost in translation. I was referencing Debbie's earlier post - where she mentioned that she read some figures about a jump in wage earning from an illegal to a legalized citizen. And in referencing her post, I said that it "sounded" plausible. "Sounded" is the operative word here, as neither Debbie (I don't believe) or I have any hard data to support this presumption. BUT, it only stands to reason that those who have the where-with-all and knowledge to realize their dream of citizenship have in fact tapped into the government programs for betterment through education and job training. An Immigrants' legal status opens the door to job-training and work-support programs. Indeed, eligibility for most government-sponsored programs is restricted to legal immigrants under federal law.

BUT FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE... don't take anything your hear or read here at PT as Gospel. We are all just blabbering about subjects that most of us cannot claim expertise on. If you know how to use the Internet to connect to PT, then you certainly can research these subject yourself through "SEARCH ENGINES" and Keywords. Try to find government sponsored sites with no political agenda - straight statistics. Also look for Non Partisan Research Groups sites. Here is a good one for anyone interested: http://www.urban.org/url.cfm?ID=310880

It is a Brief on "Immigrant Families and Workers: Facts and Perspectives" by the URBAN INSTITUTE ( a Non-Partisan Economic and Social Policy Research Organization). It is very interesting and more "reliable" than we pet lover's dribble here at PT! Not as much fun to read, a little dry and no "shots below the belt" - OUUCCHHH... but far more factual.

In fact, while I am at it. I recommend everyone utilize the Internet in their rearch when voting as well. IT IS AMAZING WHAT YOU CAN LEARN AND DISCOVER. When I was young and going to the polls, I used to againize over who was right, who was wrong, who's telling the truth and what records can I research to see who is most closely aligned to my own thinking and political philosophies. AND NOW... NOW... my answers are at my fingertips. It is truly amazing the breadth of knowledge and facts accessible on line. If a candidate says another voted for or against something "everytime" it came up. I can easily check that fact by checking voting records listed online at government sites and who voted for what. It is truly amazing how much people lie or stretch the truth!!!

That's enough rambling for now. More on that subject at a later date. Back to work... before they deport me!!!

:p

[BOBS DAD]

I assume your grandmother gave birth to your father. I know that is the way it worked in my family!

I said.... Perhaps I should have been more cleared and said delivered by midwife so as not to suggest created by the midwife.... :D :D :D

According to my father's stories...poor families especially...only sought medical assistance in an emergency...which did not include childbirth. But, in any case, you paid cash. Or chickens. Medical insurance came later.

When I see people picking strawberries in the fields around here I struggle to think they are getting a free ride and not making their own way....

It is all too true that immigrants (as well as many others!) in this country had a rough time of it and social safety nets were pretty much nonexistent. Hurt at work....oh well! Unable to work because of age or disabled? That's what kids are for....to support you. No food?....there's the bread line.

I just don't know if we really want to use those good old days as guiding principles today.

SORRY... missed that!!! Yes, you are corrrect. My grandmother did give birth to my father. At least that's the storyline... I wasn't actually there to witness the event you know!!!
:D :D :D

[RICHARD]

Since this is America.....

I am almost positive that America did not write the "long haired freaky people"/Signs song...

and you got to have a membership card to get inside, Uhhhh! ;)

[Edwina's Secretary]

I am almost positive that America did not write the "long haired freaky people"/Signs song...

and you got to have a membership card to get inside, Uhhhh! ;)

What do I know.....I'm delusional.....:D :D

[DIANESDOGS]

OK... so I haven't been around for a while. But this thread almost makes me laugh. Edwina, you say people have resorted to calling you names because they "don't have any argument". But it seems like you are the one who is lacking in substance or facts. I see a lot of opinions expressed in these posts and some real credible substance as well. It seems that if these opinions disagree with your own, then you attempt to suggest or imply that they are motivated by ignorance or bigotry. JMO.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Thank you DIANESDOG. I have tried NOT to get into name calling (I know how hurtful I find it) nor personal attacks.

Everyone has a right to an opinion and there is a difference between the person and the person's opinion.

Today I broke my own rule. I'll blame it on jetlag and delete the offensive statement.

[BOBS DAD]

WOW. I haven't checked in here in a while because I "checked out". I guess it's good that we (meaning mostly "me") are called into order once in a while. Thank you too Diane. I also apologize if I got out of line or came on too strong at any time. I will check my previous post and edit/delete any offensive commentary! God... I love this country!!! :D :D :D

[momoffuzzyfaces]

MOFF, you ae not seriously thinking that naturalized citizens earn a mere $900.00 a year, are you? Or am I just misunderstanding Edwina's post?

:pNo, I was freaking out because I thought it was said they were making $900 A WEEK!!! :D :eek: :eek: :eek:

[lizbud]

It's good to see this discussion continue because this problem does
not seem to be going away real soon.Bush is considering sending the
National Guard to the border states.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1956312

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Not to open up another can of worms, but I'd rather see the National Guard protecting our borders than getting killed in a another country.

[Lady's Human]

The reason that the National Guard is the force in question rather than the regular army is Posse Comitatus. This law prevents federal military forces from being used in a law enforcement role within the borders of the United States.

If anyone had any true intestinal fortitude (and this includes everyone on Capitol Hill, not just republicans or just democrats) they would revise Posse Comitatus and allow Federal Forces to be used on the border areas to protect the border. The excesses from the post-Civil War era are long since over, and like many other statutes that have gathered dust over the years need to be revised.

[RICHARD]

If anyone had any true intestinal fortitude (and this includes everyone on Capitol Hill, not just republicans or just democrats)

You could have said testicular fortitude.....god knows that Boxer, Feinstein and Pelosi from the Great State o' Cah lee fuh nee ah have that angle covered. ;) :eek:

[lizbud]

The reason that the National Guard is the force in question rather than the regular army is Posse Comitatus. This law prevents federal military forces from being used in a law enforcement role within the borders of the United States.

National Guard units are controlled at the State level by each
Governor.



If anyone had any true intestinal fortitude (and this includes everyone on Capitol Hill, not just republicans or just democrats) they would revise Posse Comitatus and allow Federal Forces to be used on the border areas to protect the border. The excesses from the post-Civil War era are long since over, and like many other statutes that have gathered dust over the years need to be revised.


Oh yeah that would help..... :eek: I would hate to see GB have that
level of power to loose the the Armed Forces in Main St.,USA.Much too
much responsibilty to grant to someone who has never shown much good
sense during his term of office.

[lbaker]

As long as a "can of worms" has been opened... let's go fishin' and just get along for a bit and take some deep breaths. This is a very volatile subject, on that we DO agree. OK?

[lizbud]

As long as a "can of worms" has been opened... let's go fishin' and just get along for a bit and take some deep breaths. This is a very volatile subject, on that we DO agree. OK?


Good idea. :D

[Lady's Human]

Liz,
You misread my post. I specifically mentioned border areas, as in (for example) use of US Federal forces would be approved in a 20 mile wide zone north of the Mexican border and south of the Canadian border. (Yes, there are terrorist groups based in Canada, we got briefs on them constantly while I was in FT Drum, and there is also illegal immigration coming from the northern border as well as the southern border)

I also did not mention a time limit, I believe this should be a permanent change. The US Military USED to patrol the borders of the country, which is why you can follow our westward expansion in part by town names. (Most, not all, towns which have "fort" in their names were actually forts when they were on the western edge of expansion)

We need to go back to letting the military do its job, which is protecting the borders of the US. We are probably the only country in the world with laws that specifically ban the military from doing so.

[lizbud]

The reason that the National Guard is the force in question rather than the regular army is Posse Comitatus. This law prevents federal military forces from being used in a law enforcement role within the borders of the United States.

If anyone had any true intestinal fortitude (and this includes everyone on Capitol Hill, not just republicans or just democrats) they would revise Posse Comitatus and allow Federal Forces to be used on the border areas to protect the border. The excesses from the post-Civil War era are long since over, and like many other statutes that have gathered dust over the years need to be revised.

I don't think so LH.

Posse Comitatus, as is, does not prevent Federal troop action, just makes
sure the State invites them in when needed.Local control, not Federal.

Not sure what excesses from post Civil War era your talking about, but
we the people (all of us) are still undergoing excesses from the federal
level each & every day.

[Lady's Human]

Posse Comitatus explicitly prohibits Federal troops from undertaking ANY mission that requires them to act in a law enforcement capacity. They cannot be used in any way, shape or form to enforce laws. This is why the rebuilding of New Orleans, for example, was started with a mix of troops, mostly National Guard. The Guard undertook law and order functions, and the active troops stuck strictly to helping rebuild. A state governor can request federal troop assistance, but it is strictly for labor, and those troops are barred from undertaking any enforcement activities whatsoever.

Enforcement activities include enforcing US Border laws.

[RICHARD]

Here we go.. :(

Not to be a jerk...

We got our wish.....

wait until the first gun battle goes down and bystanders are killed.

Read the book "Hammerheads" by Dale Brown.

Alot of good intentions gone awry there.

[lbaker]

Herein can be found that rare native tree, the Presidential Timber, struck down in mid-sprout by the jawbone of a politician. Pogo returns to the swamp from a couple of political conventions to find his unfinished business being rapidly finished, once and for all, by rough and ready hands.

"We Have Met The Enemy and He Is Us" :(

w.k.

[Lady's Human]

Richard,

funny, I always thought "Hammerheads" was a pretty damned good idea. Unfortunately, CNN wouldn't think so.

[RICHARD]

Richard,

funny, I always thought "Hammerheads" was a pretty damned good idea. Unfortunately, CNN wouldn't think so.

The book was way ahead of it's time.....the "awry" part was the media's fault...in the book!

[Teri]

I believe that the borders should be closed and that the laws be made stricter as far as illegal immigrants are concerned.

Everytime an immigrant enters the US illegally, a LEGAL resident of the US is shortchanged.

There was a story in the paper a few days back about an illegal immigrant gave birth in the desert so that her child would be born a legal immigrant. What next???

We need to start taking care of our own LEGAL residents.

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.

[persianmom]

I agree with moomoms We get short changed every time.

[sparks19]

While I did not read this entire thread I am going to give my two cents.

The thing everyone needs to remember is that whether they are getting a free ride or busting their humps, illegal immigrants are just that... ILLEGAL. I don't think any special arrangments should be made for them. You wouldn't make any special arrangments for a local shoplifter would you? They willingly came into the country as an illegal immigrant. They made the choice. Now for them to stand up and demand respect and to be recognized? we don't give any other criminal respect or special treatment. and thats just what illegal immigrants are. Criminals.

I am a Canadian citizen and my husband is American. We had to live apart since we were married because we chose to do things legally. I could have come into the country as an illegal but we went through the process so that I could be a LEGAL resident. It's tough to go through but we did it. So can they.